The Here I Stand Theology Podcast - Creeds Confessions and Catechisms Ep10

Creeds, Confessions, and Catechisms as Tools for the Church

All right, and so we are live, finally, finally, we are back. So here I stand.

I can do no other.

God help me. So glad to be here today. Super glad and super excited to have Matt back.

Good to be back after a little time off.

Yeah. We had been subliminally taunting and intimidating our audience with Toon Matt, the baddest man in Toontown. Now you will notice, as we mentioned in a previous episode, Matt and I are less bearded than we were.

And so there is a very important lesson for the bearded to speak to other bearded men about when it comes to shaving their beard. What do men need to say to one another when they are called out to repent of shaving their beard?

They need to make an admission like this.

I'm stupid. You're smart.

I was wrong.

You were right. You're the best. I'm the worst. You're very good looking. I'm not attractive.

All right.

As long as you're willing to admit that now.

All right, enough. Enough with the beard jokes. Enough with the beard jokes.

I do look different though.

You do. But you've got a good trim. You've got a good shape on it right now.

I'm trying to keep it neat.

All right.

So Kevin Michael is with us. Super glad. Super excited. He's back with us. He does not have a beard, but he does have muscles. So if you can't have one, it's good to have the other. So we are, again, just to give everybody an idea of who we are, what the point of the podcast is.

We are the Here I Stand Theology Podcast. We are a podcast focused on spirited and pointed defense of biblical doctrines with application to our day and to our time in which we live. And today we are going to be discussing creeds, catechisms, and confessions, or if you wanted to rather say it, creeds, confessions, and catechisms, or catechisms, confessions, and creeds, whatever makes you feel better.

You say that any way that you want. That's obviously a secondary issue. You are not going to be put under church discipline for that. So Kevin, how are you? Tell us a little bit about what's been going on with you, how you're doing, you and your family, and we'll just ease right into this.

We're doing very well. I say we do the same thing a lot of families do. All of us, since we have older children, they're working and we're working and we're trying to coordinate schedules and spend time together.

It's a bit challenging at their age and since everybody works different shifts, but by God's grace, we are able to spend some time together. So looking forward to being able to spend some time with my faith family here Sunday morning in the Lord's house on Lord's day.

And then it'll be back to the grind Sunday night, like always back at work.

So, Kevin, you are an elder at Norwood Baptist Church, correct?

Yes, that is true. Still trucking along in Norwood.

Good, good. And Matt, so again, Matt's been on a hiatus. How are you, Ben?

I've been doing good. Just took a little time to just focus on some family things. So just kind of had a little busy, busy time. So needed to just focus on things on the home front. Nothing, nothing bad or anything like that.

Just wanted to just kind of reset my focus there. And then we had a little family vacation week before last. So just had a little time away. So things are good. Got, got refreshed a little bit, but as always back at it this week, it's always, always busy around our household.

So and no matter and no matter how long you're away from work, when it's like five minutes back, it's like, holy cow, did I even leave?

Overall, things are good, glad to be back, though.

Praise the Lord.

I've been excited, excited today and a little nervous. I feel like I'm doing my first one again.

It is scary. It is scary. And there are people critiquing us likely, so it makes it a little bit, a little bit more, a little bit more nerve wracking.

What a Creed, Confession, and Catechism Are

All right.

So just as kind of a lead in. Matt, I'll ask you, so as far as as creeds, catechism, catechisms and confessions go, let's actually before we ask any questions, let's kind of set some parameters, right?

So B .H. Carroll actually spoke about about creeds, confessions and catechisms. Catechism, just by definition, is simply a learning tool. It's a it's a learning aid, questions and answers meant to be set to memory specifically within the church concerning the doctrines that the scriptures teach.

For example, basic, which is amazing. I think the children's catechism is actually like one hundred and forty questions, maybe one hundred and seventy. Do you know, Kevin or Matt?

I don't know.

The number depends on the catechism.

Yeah, I think it's the Westminster. But the children's catechism, which they started at like three and four and five years old, one hundred and seventy questions. But it's just basic questions and answers.

Is there more than one God? Question right answer. No, there is but one God question. And how many gods or in how many persons does this one God exist? Answer. Three persons. Question. Who are they? Answer.

The father, son, the spirit. Right. But it's amazing how many adults can answer these questions. This is why catechisms are are good for the church. So a catechism is just a learning tool. Question and answers.

But B .H. Carroll gave a tremendously simple and pure definition of creed and confession. And B .H. Carroll said this, actually, a creed is what we believe. Right. And a confession is the declaration of what we believe, it's the stating of what we believe.

And we all we all know this and understand the importance that it's it's very important not just to know what we believe, but why we believe what we believe. Right. It understand how it works, what it's about.

Which, again, I think that's one of the benefits of reform doctrine is the emphasis on not just knowing what you believe, but why you believe it. What do you guys think about that concerning that those kind of that simple definition?

A creed is what we believe in. A confession is what a declaration of what we believe.

I agree. I think in doing some research, I think a lot of people, they are similar in nature. But I think that's a good definition. Obviously, the confession is more extensive. Like I said, I think it lays out more in detail the belief.

And you've got the scriptural references generally to back those up while while that statement is true.

Right. What about you, Kevin?

Yeah, I think that's good. You both hit the nail on the head. That quote was really good. But I think it's also important to note, and I had it in my notes, that the majority of the creeds, with the exception of the Apostles Creed, they were written to combat a specific heresy that had become popular at the time.

And so that's important to note and to hold on to as well. And as you both had mentioned, the the creeds will show, you know, basic tenets of the Christian faith. And then the confession will take and break those down even further.

And these these confessions, some of these some of these documents are so long that they've become little booklets. But they're very good for the church.

Yeah, I was going to say that, too. I think the the creeds generally. Have a Trinitarian and Christological focus. The confessions break out into other topics within the faith and within the church specifically.

So exactly.

More more extensive look into the Christian beliefs and doctrines.

Right. And I mean, the creeds go, the creeds go back, what, to 390, I believe, is the date on the Apostles Creed. And then the the Nicene Creed was brought about in 325. And Kevin, you had mentioned that the creeds were established to defend against the heresy that was being taught in the early churches, right?

Right. Do you do you want to talk about an example of maybe either the Apostles Creed or the Nicene Creed? Why that they were they were brought about?

Sure. If I remember correctly, and you brothers can correct me, if if I have veered off the path of truthfulness, I do believe the Nicene Creed was written in response to the heretical teachings of a man named Arius.

And I do believe that he taught that that Jesus Christ was not eternally. He had not was not did not exist co-eternally with God, let me put it that way, but he was created by God. And our more savvy listeners that have encountered Jehovah's Witnesses know and understand that that is a very common teaching that Jehovah's Witnesses organization, I've called the church, but I will call them organization.

Yeah, yeah.

And the Nicene Creed was basically was written specifically at the Council of Nicaea, where these these church fathers came together from the very, very early church. And the Nicene Creed came about as a result to specifically say to refute the heretical teachings of Arius.

Yes. Yes. Do either of you know who the who the guy was that brought forth and really was a staunch defender? Of of that, of this creed and of that specific doctrine. Athanasius, Athanasius, historically, he was referred to as the Black Dwarf.

Noah, Noah.

There's also the Athanasius Creed as well.

Mm hmm. Yep. Yep.

The Athanasian Creed. Actually, I don't have that in here. By the way, if if you've got a Reformation study Bible, most most of the Reformation study Bibles have your creeds and confessions in the back of them, which is a great tool to have.

And I mean, as far as being confessional, me and ourselves, we hold at Reformata to the London, the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. Is that what you all hold to, Kevin?

No, at Norwood, we use the Southern Baptist Faith and Message from the year 2000. But in addition to that, we also use the Abstract of Principles. Now, I personally, I have used the 1689 to teach from on several different occasions, but we do not actually have that as our official creed at Norwood.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's I mean, it's it's very sound. And and and so so the Nicene Creed that you had mentioned, do we want to you all want to take just a minute and kind of just read through it?

Certainly, we can look through that.

You good? So again, it was to defend against the heresy of teaching that Jesus was a created being and not eternally with God and God in the in the Jehovah's Witnesses. That's one of the things that you can if if you are a Christian and they come to your door, I mean, just it's exciting when you get them and they think they're going to give you their spiel and you say, well, let's go to John one one in the beginning was the word and the word was God and the word was with God.

Right. To go to that because because they they interpret it that the word was a God, not God. Yes. And that's the that's the real challenge. And another and that's another reason why why creeds in confessions and catechisms are so very important for us, because it helps us kind of prioritize these things.

Right. If you're if you're anything like me and you're like ADHD, ADHD, ADHD, ADHD, squirrel. Oh, did I say ADHD? If you're anything like me, you've got all this stuff that runs around in your head, but it's hard to get it to slow down and to just, you know, put it in a systematic order.

That's it's very important. So let's look at that Nicene Creed real quick. So it was written in three twenty five, I believe, the dating on that. But it says we believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And then they added and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of God, begotten of his father before all worlds, God of God, light of light, very God of God, begotten, not made being of one substance with the father by whom all things were made, who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary and was made man and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate.

He suffered and was buried. And the third day he arose again, according to the scriptures and ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and the giver of life who proceeds from the father and the son. There's this that the Trinitarian doctrine coming in, being articulated who with the father and the son together is worshiped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets.

And we believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic church that gets a lot of folks today. But we know that Catholic means what, Matt? Universal, universal, right? Not the Roman Catholic Church. Orthodox.

Yes. Yes. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins, and we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. So one of the one of the questions in our communications throughout the last couple of weeks, you know, that we were just so that those who are watching know we were kind of, you know, trying to figure out what kind of questions do we want to bring forth?

What kind of information do we want to set out? And one of the questions that I proposed to these men was, what does a creed actually say? You remember that, Kevin? Yes.

What was that? I actually wrote your reply in my notes.

What was that? What does the creed say?

Let me find it here.

OK, the question is, what does a biblically sound creed, confession or catechism say? And I wrote, I will quote Claude from earlier this week in a conversation when he said, it says the same thing that the Bible says.

That's right. I mean, I mean, yeah. Yeah, because I mean, when we read that creed, I mean, that's like a sermon. Yeah. Boom. Right there.

And as we would say, that'll preach.

That's right. Hey, man. So, I mean, in creeds again. I think today we live in a time where everybody wants every once wants Christianity to be Christianity, to be microwaved. They want it quick. They want it concise and they want it short.

Right. Yes. We were serving Christianity.

Yes. And the church fathers did not want that for the church because the church, the church would not have survived on a piecemeal Christianity on a little bit here and a little bit there. There had to be a clear and a robust statement.

I'm going to go ahead.

So like you said in your last podcast, you did on your own about Bethel, these things need to be articulated. Yes, sir. Well, you can't just gloss over this stuff and they need to be explained in detail.

Yeah. To be understood.

Well, yeah. Yeah.

Most most if you go to a church's website, you know, they may have two or three points, you know, where they can get everybody in. Oh, everybody can agree with this. And then you get in and you realize, wait a minute.

They didn't mention anything about that.

Right. Right.

Why Robust Confessions Guard the Church

Yeah. So what do you all think about? I don't know if you all got to look any information up on this. I have something in the chamber ready if you all don't. But why? Why robust confessions and creeds and catechisms are a healthy part of the church today?

Or do you want to say?

I think, well, there's a bunch of reasons.

Yeah, well, I think I did some background information on that. But go ahead, Matt.

No, I was just going to kind of make a general statement first is I think these historical creeds and confessions and as you said, a church's statement of faith or if they adopt one of these is important to have these in writing because.

Whether people want to admit it or not. Everybody has a creed and whether it's written, whether it's written down, whether it's in their mind, when you start speaking about these things, you're professing your creed.

That's right. If it's not written down, if it's not detailed, it's not robust. Chances are it's going to change with the times.

That's right.

And I think that's one important, as you said, to just in general, the reason church history is important. Looking back at these things is they've stood the test of time. I mean, these heresies that they specifically addressed keep popping up.

That's right. So we can we can look throughout history. This has been addressed. This is the church's stance based on scripture. That's how we can continue to refute it to this day.

Right. Kevin, what were you going to say?

If I were going to use a bad analogy and not been guilty of that more often than I'd like to admit, I would say that in a way, creeds and confessions and catechisms are kind of like cliff notes. I'm sure you guys remember when we were in school and we were assigned a piece of literature to read and us being teenage boys in the way that we were, we didn't read it.

So we went and grabbed notes from Walmart or literature section. And we tried to read notes to get the gist of that Shakespeare or that, you know, John Steinbeck or whatever it was that we were assigned to read that we didn't want to read.

We use the cliff notes. Now, I would not recommend that we do that with creeds, confessions and catechisms to figure out what the Bible says. But I would say that it's important to remember the creeds, confessions and catechisms.

And I've taught this at Norwood. People really like this. Another bad analogy, if you will. Those documents, they're kind of like guardrails.

Right. Exactly.

And they help say that. They really help to keep us as children of God from veering off the path of Orthodox Christianity into outright right heresy. Amen. And that they're really good for that. And I would encourage our listeners, if you're reading your Bible and you're come upon something and you think that you've received some some type of new information, something that you haven't learned before.

Take the time to to dig out some of these confessions, some of these creeds, as he mentioned before, the the Baptist Second London Baptist Confession of Faith. You're 1689 and compare what you think you have learned to what these people have confessed throughout the centuries.

And if it doesn't line up that, to be honest, you're probably wrong.

That's right.

If somebody hasn't already thought of it insofar as scripture is concerned, somebody hasn't already learned it, then you're wrong.

That's exactly right.

What is like their statement? Any new revelation is just an old heresy.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. There's nothing new in theology.

I was going to say, Kevin, along with your Cliff Notes example, I kind of had in my notes that it's these things provide us with a concise system of doctrine of the scripture that does kind of make it easier to learn these doctrines and kind of remember them, because at Reformata right now on Sunday nights, we're going through a study of the 1689.

And you can see in some of the sections you've got a paragraph's worth of information. I mean, these these paragraphs are packed full of doctrine and information. But then you go to look at the scripture references and you might have eight or 10 scripture references and you're getting all of that doctrine kind of packed into one concise paragraph that does kind of bring it all together and kind of make it make a little better sense as a like say, obviously, you want to go to the scripture, which we do.

We read each one of the references. Having those kind of just put together for you in a concise paragraph, you're encompassing a lot of doctrine together. It does make it make sense and make it a little easier to to remember.

That's exactly right. Yeah. And I appreciate your your analogy there, the guardrails, because that's the that is the truth. So if and then that's such a simple truth, but it's so powerful because I mean, we think I mean, if we think about and we take that analogy and even make an application to our lives today, I mean, what would it be like?

Do you all have you all watched a lot of Seinfeld? Watched it a little bit when it was not spiritual, but this is this is still true. This is still good. So Seinfeld, I love Seinfeld. When I was younger, I still like the reruns.

But one episode, Kramer adopts a section of the highway. And so he decides that he's going to decrease the traffic flow by blacking over the lines that divide the lanes. And of course, you know, a traffic jam ensues and there's chaos.

Right. We don't think about that. We drive down the road in those those lines really aren't going to. If you cross the line, it's not going to hurt you. What's going to hurt you is when you run into traffic coming the other way or when you run off on the ditch.

Right. So, I mean, these these creeds, these confessions, these catechisms are are those guardrails that keep us. You know, they're the bumps that start rattling your car when you start to veer off the way and to alert you to heresy and alert you to falsehood.

Yeah, that's awesome.

I would also add, if I may, that the creeds, confessions and catechisms are also helpful in helping people know and understand what a specific church teaches and preaches. For instance, if I were going to visit a church, say I were looking for a church in a new city, the first thing that I am going to do is pull that church's website up.

And I personally am going to look to see to what confession they hold. If they don't hold to a confession, I'm going to try to go over to. And Claude, you alluded to this earlier. You said they might have a few or they might have a what we believe section, have a few things in there.

I'm going to go to that section. I'm going to look and see if they say this is what we believe about God and this is what we believe about the Trinity. This is what we believe and teach about a salvation, the mechanics of salvation.

All of that is extremely important. And I would also add, if you go to a church's website and they don't have a what we believe section, be very careful.

Be very careful.

But just for example, at Norwood, when we do, when a person comes to us and wants to join our fellowship, there's a class that they that they go through. I went, my family, we all went through it together.

You go through this class. It's about four hours over a course of several Saturdays. And you go through the the confession, the two confessions that we as a church to which we hold. And an elder goes through that with you and walks through that with you.

And you look at that in scripture and at the end of the class. And this may seem excessive to a lot of people, but there's a document that you sign that say as a member of Norwood Baptist Church, I affirm these two documents and the biblical truths that are held there in that way.

There is no question whatsoever about what we believe and teach and preach at Norwood Baptist Church.

Yeah, I completely agree. That was going to be the next point in my notes is that they unite us with other people around truths to which we all agree to adhere. Amen. I think that does bring a unity within the church.

It should leave no room for the members to wonder what the elders, the leadership of the church believes, what they're going to be, the doctrines they're going to be preaching. So, again, I think that comes with that a robust confession that you adhere to and not just skimming the surface on what you believe, because like you say, you go to some of these websites and even what little they have on there might sound good.

You get there and who knows what you might hear.

Right. It passes the theological smell test, as Justin Peters would say.

By the way, we're hoping to have him on sometime. I've been trying to be in contact with him, but we're just a little fish in the big sea.

And I think going along with that, another thing I had in my notes is I think these things can be. Useful tools when considering people for church leadership. Yes, because if a church holds to one of these confessions and someone who desires leadership is being looked to for leadership, yeah, does not hold to the same beliefs that are expressed in these confessions, then they don't need to be in leadership at that church.

Right. Well, and because it's kind of just it brings dissension within the ranks, but by having like you all have said, but by having that clearly defined a understanding of what the scriptures teach.

Right. And there's agreement on that, because truly that's that has to be at the heart and in the very core in the center of church as it is. Right. Because we're there to worship the triune God. And if there is modalism, you know, is one of those heresies that nobody even understands or knows, you say modalism.

And most Christians say, what's that? Right. You know, they don't understand that. But but but as as Christians, we should we should rightly be exposed and exposing. As as elders, we should rightly be exposing those under our care to those theological terms and then going into these creeds, catechisms and confessions and saying, see, this is what was taught.

Historically, these things creep in regularly. And you said it, too. You know, it's recycled. Right. How did you say that earlier?

Any new revelation is just an old heresy.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because it's it's recycling has been around forever.

And I think that kind of on another point goes to just the importance of. Knowing, studying church history in general, not just. Yes. The creeds and confessions. And as I say a lot on the podcast, I didn't didn't know much about church history until probably the last five or six years.

And it's it's fascinating.

And it is.

And like you said to. I think see. And I think under the two is kind of look to the conditions that these men were in when they wrote these documents. Yes. The persecution they were under and what they I mean, literally putting their life on the line for these things.

And yeah, just yeah. And like I said, just. It's a man, you ought to say out just. I think we would we would do ourselves well to learn more about church history in general.

That's right.

And appreciate those who have gone before us. And not look at Christianity from an American perspective. I think we've fallen into that trap of we're the we're the center of Christianity in the world.

And we ain't know we ain't. So real quick here. Let's take like a 30 second break. We'll show the the hero, the righteous rich promo, and they will be right back, Kevin. All right. So if you get a chance sometime later this evening, we want to encourage you to go to righteous rich dot com.

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All right. So back to it. I'm going to go back to my B .H. Carroll quote. The longest creed of history is more valuable and less hurtful than the shortest. He said, while the faith itself has many articles, there are unity in them.

They articulate, meaning they work together. And it is intensely important to bring all members of the church into unity, touching all the faith. Right. Well, what? Let's ask this question. What about specifically for from your all's perspective in the creeds that you that you all have read and looked at and studied?

What about that specific creed? And you can mention that, guys, whatever creed it is. What about that truly and personally affects. You in your life and your application of the scriptures in living those out.

Right. Can I take a swing at this one?

Yes, sir.

If you don't care, I'd like to share briefly how I came to understand what the creeds, confessions and catechisms were in my own life. And that'll kind of, you know, answer that question that you had asked.

I like like Matt said, I didn't know. I just didn't. I grew up in a Southern Baptist church. Every Southern Baptist church I ever attended was tiny. And and and I it was I was I would say I was in Bible college before I even knew what the Southern Baptist faith and message was.

Walk up to your typical Southern Baptist member right now, church member, and ask them, what's your confession? And to be fair, many of them don't even know that we as a denomination have our own confession, the Southern Baptist faith from the year 2000.

Most Southern Baptist just don't know that. And it's not necessarily that they don't care. It's they've not been taught. They just don't know. But for me, I was pastoring a church literally, vocationally before I had ever even heard of the reformed confessions.

And I was of all people. I was listening to a sermon on YouTube about Votibaka. And he was preaching about predestination and election. And he was talking about Jacob and Esau. And he's meant he made mention in passing.

That their church and it's somewhere in Houston, not Houston, somewhere in Texas, maybe Dallas, but anyway, the church he used to pastor that they used the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. And I thought, well, my goodness, what is that?

And I went home and I read it and.

My mom, I.

I. That was my introduction to the reformed confessions, and then I had already been listening some to R .C. Sproul. Well, then I said, well, let me look at this Westminster confession. So we're in the Westminster.

And then I actually spent a great deal of time comparing them chapter by chapter to see how similar the confession of the Presbyterian reformed Presbyterians is to the confession of the reformed Baptists.

And it's remarkably similar. And for me personally, I have learned so much and have had a deeper understanding of scripture, a deepening understanding, deepening even continues to be of my of my God that we worship, the trine Godhead that you mentioned earlier, my Lord and Savior and a better understanding of ecclesiology, how the church is governed, a better understanding of soteriology, the mechanics of salvation.

And dare I say a differing understanding now than what I was raised in eschatology. And that's right. And so and I just I just said all that to say this. It really has enriched my faith. And there were several members of different churches where I've I've been a part of that I've I've introduced to the the Baptist Confession of Faith from 1689.

Actually, I got this one from RBC Louisville. They actually hold these in their foyer and give them to visitors. I was very impressed with that. That's awesome. Yes. And I give people a copy of a confession and I say, read this.

And people have have contacted me and said, thank you for introducing me to confessions and creeds and catechisms. And, you know, again, I give credit where it's due. Votie was the one that pointed me in the right direction, not personally, but through his ministry and the sermons I found on YouTube.

And and so I personally, I'm very grateful. Again, I spent, you know, I'm a four year graduate of Liberty University and not once did they ever say anything to us in Bible college, quote unquote, about the reformed confessions.

Wow. Again, that's not a mark against Liberty. I'm not saying anything about my alma mater, just that. It just it wasn't it wasn't something that we discussed in my theological training.

Well, so that I mean, that that blows my mind.

I mean, I'm not. Liberty's not a quote, reformed, unquote.

Institution. Either. So. Right. Yeah.

I mean, my I'm very similar that I grew up Southern Baptist churches all my life. Never, never heard a thing about confessions, the creeds, catechisms, probably that I can remember. My first exposure to them was visiting what was a church plant at the time.