More Ergun Caner Errors

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

00:28

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

00:34

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white My name is Argon mickey.

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I'll manage you vanish. I'm there. I am the son of a jar Mehmet John there I Was raised for the first 17 years of my life as a

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Sunni Muslim a jar of Mehmet John there My father was a muadheen He was an ulema

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Muadheen is the one who does the call to prayer in the minaret When Ulema is a scholar of the hadith.

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I was raised in the mosque and raised and Brought here to America to be a missionary to you

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Well, it sounds awful familiar, but a new video has appeared with some new information that once again casts very serious doubt upon the excuses for That have been posted by dr

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Norman Geisler and haven't haven't received any updates for a number of months now

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In fact the Geisler camp the Ankerberg camp have gone absolutely positively silent in regards to the refutations of their material and the questions that have been asked of them and yet the great evangelical cover -up continues on What you just heard was a number of things first of all another example of where Ergen Kanner exaggerated his father's scholarship

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Where he likewise instead of calling him an alim, which is a scholar said he was an ulema ulema is the plural so he said he was a scholars and Identified him as a scholars of hadith

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Now the hadith of course are one of those things that have tripped up Ergen and Ymir Kanner Because in their book unveiling

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Islam and the majority of references they forget to cite the hadith in a meaningful fashion

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And that is one of the questions that continues to be unanswered by dr. Norman Geisler I have asked him to please identify using the methodology utilized by the

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Kanners in Citing the hadith literature to identify hadith 2425 and To tell us why that is an important hadith relating to the

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Quran, of course, dr Geisler can't do that Which is why he hasn't answered and will not answer and will not even deem it proper or appropriate to answer because he's been caught

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He has been exposed and he knows it and there's nothing he can do about it without admitting

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That his defense of Ergen Kanner is fallacious and he's simply not going to do that Unfortunately, and so there you just heard the the assertion that an ulema

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Which it means scholars is a scholar of hadith. Well, the the the ulema is a whole

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Muslim scholars certainly in Sunni Islam Study the hadith the various collections of hadith such as Sahih al -Bukhari

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Sahih al -Muslim Jami 'at termity, etc, etc But They are more than that they first of all have to be scholars of the

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Quran First and foremost to really qualify in that way then later on He he goes on to make the following statements in this in this video

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The Quran is one big monologue Supposedly one long utterance from Allah Let me just stop it there for just a moment

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That that's just not true, I mean if you've read the Quran, you know better I mean they do believe that that Allah sent it down to Muhammad to be recited but there are citations of Lucifer in the

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Quran and and of other people It's right there if you've actually read it yourself

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You are aware of those things, but the hadith is different Any Muslim who's worth a salt knows what the hadith is

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Which would evidently mean that Ergen Kanner is not a Muslim worth his salt because he doesn't know the difference between Sahih al -Bukhari

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Sahih al -Muslim, Jami 'at termity, Sinan al -Wudud and stuff like that, which you know, you would

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Talk about hanging yourself on your own petard, you know There there you go But anyway, there are actually scholars called a hadith

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Who spend their lives studying this Muslim version or Muslim counterpart to the

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Jewish Talmud Actually a hadith is simply the plural of hadith What he just said is that there are

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Muslim scholars called hadiths who study the hadith it's

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Mu is the term that you would use Mahadi would be the studyers the the scholars of the of the hadith, but There there you how can you expect someone who clearly has spent almost no time whatsoever with the hadith

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To know anything about the hadith or to know that a hadith is actually just the plural When you don't know that ulema is the plural of alim.

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So that that that sort of makes make some sense What makes all this so sad aside from the great evangelical cover -up being headed up by Norman Geisler and the fact that it's working

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Is this you'll notice that Folks like John Ankerberg have not responded to the refutation of their endorsements of Ernie Cantor and I think we know why listen to these words from John Ankerberg.

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All right back. We're talking about the truth about Islam and jihad with renowned scholar.

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Dr Ymir Cantor who's probably with his brother the world's foremost Scholars on Islam and comparing it with Christianity world's foremost scholars on Islam now

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I remember I I got attacked a number of months ago because I I pointed out they're making claims about themselves

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Oh, they know that they're just students. They don't and they're Ymir Cantor sits and now I understand

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I'll give him break I've had people say things while interviewing me that I was just going where in the world did they get that?

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And and if I can I try to correct any misapprehensions, but There's a there's another quote from another

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I think it was a Jewish program where they were talking with Ernie Cantor and said, you know He's the one to go to he's the and the sad thing is folks

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He might they might they might get away with continuing to represent themselves in this way this is a small podcast ours is a relatively small voice and Though I know in talking with people in the apologetics community the words gotten out there

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But unfortunately when it comes to the big conferences and stuff like that That's still very very dominated by politics and I'm not a politician and I'm not interested in playing politics

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I won't play politics, but there are people who are consummate politicians and who have a tremendous amount of Authority when it comes to politics and hence to money and if they have chosen to Engage in the cover -up like Norman Geisler has well

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They may succeed they may succeed Would it really surprise anybody looking at the state of affairs in evangelicalism

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United States? That someone would get away with this It doesn't surprise me at all and it doesn't discourage me in the sense that This has happened down to the history of the church and there is a day coming when the truth will be known and the motivations that people had will be laid out on the table and the politics will be exposed and the money will be exposed and You know justice and righteousness will prevail and that's my hope and so I just keep doing what

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I can do And what seems to be best and move on from there such as tomorrow evening

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Engaging Abdullah Kunda in a debate on a BN that's a BN sat .com

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5 o 'clock my time 8 o 'clock Eastern Time very important subject one that I'll be perfectly honest with you

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I'm glad Ergen Kanner is not doing debates on and has never done debates on and that is

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Christianity and Islam assurance of salvation in both How do you have assurance of salvation as a

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Muslim in comparison to how a Christian has assurance of salvation very very important topic will be on live it will be a video debate and so You shouldn't be overly surprised to see the video that will be coming from my office is the same video

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That you see on my on my videos on YouTube And I I just wonder if Abdullah Kunda will make any comment about my green lava lamp that is the question

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Will there be any commentary on the green lava lamp The fact of those young guy he may even know what it is.

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He may you know, that's pretty cool Yeah, you weren't around the 70s were So anyway, that'll be tomorrow night 8 o 'clock

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Eastern Time 5 o 'clock my time, which is currently Pacific Daylight Time, which is actually

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Mountain Standard Time blah blah blah In fact, we need to be looking for when's that switch over then is that next month

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October? Some somewhere around there. Yeah Well, we got to find out because then everybody goes and plays their clocks

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And so we got to play with ours and all that kind of stuff. No, we don't need to find out It's everybody else that no we do because I have what we don't change

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I know we don't change but we still have to interface everybody who does and not only that I've got a half -day interface with and I've got atomic clocks and not all of them have the daylight savings time turn off switch and so Just a pain.

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Anyway, one more thing before we go to our calls About two weeks ago or so maybe a little bit more

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Well, thank you Lu just told me Abdullah Kunda surely watched

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Scooby -Doo Well, I don't know if he did or not he is in Australia I'm not sure how big

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Scooby -Doo was in Australia, but maybe maybe it got down. I don't know I would about two two and a half three weeks.

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I forget how long it was now. I'm looking forward to doing this ride again Once it's stinking cools down out here.

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We'll see you next time Which it is not doing right now. It's gonna be back up to 103 on Saturday But I did a ride out dynamite

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Road Anybody who lives in the area goes up northeast? Dynamite Road goes way out into the middle of nowhere out toward the

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Superstition Mountains And it's a big climb up then a big huge nine mile hill down and then you have to turn around and climb back up The hill you just climbed.

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Oh, it's out. It's how it works And I was listening to a bunch of unbelievable radio programs and oh

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Justin I'm sorry. I Justin sent me a promo audio

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I was gonna play and I'll be happy to play Justin's promo audio if I remember to transfer over this computer

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Sorry, Justin my apologies, but I will I will play Justin's Promo audio for unbelievable.

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I do enjoy listening to the program But I was listening to a bunch of bunch of Justin Audios to a bunch of unbelievable programs while I was riding on that ride and I was listening to the sort of follow -up program they did to when

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Psy was on and talked about Presuppositionalism and They had some definitely non -presuppositionalists on with an atheist the same atheist as I have been on with and these are all people that have

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Participated in the online forums at at the the premier Christian radio network and the unbelievable online forums that you can get on to and stuff like that and It was somewhat interesting to listen to until I got this one point and this is a

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Christian speaking I don't remember who they were. I I'm I'm not trying to pick on this one particular person, but this was just such a

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Bad example of This Just grossly unbiblical view of the gospel

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I had to comment I I Determined I was gonna do that as I was coming back down that hill and I just haven't done it and I just need to I Feel it's absolutely necessary to do this here.

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There is an atheist in the channel I'm not sorry in the studio and this guy's already given him his Bible, which is very nice But the problem is when

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Psy had talked with this atheist This is the very atheist that Psy Bruggencate had gotten to Start abandoning the need for logical rationality.

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I mean he had done a good job getting him to say well You know, I just don't think we need to be quite that Rational, you know, and it's pretty rare to have the atheist, you know doing that But now you got guys who aren't going

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Psy's direction, you know, and they're just Talking about emotions and feelings and and getting together with people and and all the rest of this stuff

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I never heard a call for repentance. I never heard the absolute Lordship of Christ proclaimed with clarity

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It was troubling on that level but this section Just about made me crash.

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Okay. I was coming back down dynamite. So I was I was about 25 26 miles an hour

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And I heard this I'm certain that I was making Discernible guttural sounds even as I was riding by You just have to listen and you'll see here's

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Here's part of the discussion on the unbelievable radio podcast I think we are so self -sufficient that when you finally rise to the dignity of despair and I think

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God will put you through a desert and If you you you you just you just check in your pride and you do what the

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Bible asks which is You know Jesus. I don't believe in you But if you're there come into my life

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He promises that He will answer that's a promise from God.

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And so if you want evidence Go try that Do you hear that?

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I Rolled it back and I listened to it again With all

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The respect I can muster in my heart to this man who calls himself a Christian my friend that is not the gospel in any

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Way shape or form may I say to the atheist to whom this was said, please sir

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Do not be confused. That is not the gospel Jesus is not a self -help methodology

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Jesus is not a whitening pace that you put on your teeth try it for a month And if it doesn't work give you your money back

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You don't try Jesus There is nothing about repentance there and in fact what you just heard was

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Say to Jesus I don't believe in you But do something for me anyways, and that'll give you your evidence be an unbeliever

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No repentance no faith, but Jesus will do something for you. Anyways, I'm sorry

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That is so far from anything that any apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ ever

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Stated ever said ever wrote ever taught ever preached that It amazes me

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Someone didn't just jump out of their chair and say what? What did you just say did you just tell an unbeliever true to remain an unbeliever?

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But to see if Jesus would like do something for him, you know You know heal his back make his shorter leg

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As long as his longer leg, you know make his hair start growing back on his bald head something But you don't have to believe in Jesus but Jesus will do something for you and that will give you your evidence,

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I'm sorry That is so far removed from the gospel that I'm left stuttering if I had been in the studio,

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I Even if it had been the last time I was in the studio. I would have had to say excuse me, but I That is not the gospel the gospel does not say

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Be an unbeliever and then Jesus will do something for you if you'll just sort of maybe nod his direction

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The thing that was so that concerned me so much about almost everything that was said to that atheist and See since he had been on with the presupposition.

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This is sort of like well, let us let us get our shot sigh challenged this man's autonomy

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He challenged him to recognize that God is God and he isn't and these guys didn't

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At least this guy didn't it was all about allowing the unbeliever to remain an unbeliever and to judge

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God and That was I think a real real eye -opening contrast

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Between a biblical apologetic Which says you you speak the truth in love you tell the man you are the creature of God God Created you

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God made you and you have responsibilities before your creator now the rebel sinner doesn't like that But you see if you're dependent upon the rebel sinner liking your methodology and liking your message

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You're never gonna see anybody saved Because the reality is it's only the

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Spirit of God that brings spiritual life and The message of the gospel is supposed to be offensive to the rebel sinner.

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Not something that makes him feel warm and fuzzy and so when I heard that I was

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Absolutely positively blown away by What was said and by the assertion that Jesus I I don't believe in you but what

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That's not the gospel folks don't don't get confused don't be confused that is not the gospel

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Three oh, yes, I understand So with that, let's go to our phone calls.

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And in fact So this is this is a regular phone call not not a

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Skype phone call Regular phone call. Okay. All right. So we're gonna we're gonna go across the pond here and into Europe and We are going to talk with Peter in Peter of Deutschland couldn't talk my hair be gates machine and What we talked before remember yeah, yeah is she is having each of your guest

20:11

Yes, I remember your phone call on on a BN even though it was

20:18

It's a little bit difficult sitting on the set because there's this this one speaker back behind the the cameras and there's almost always a delay between when brother

20:30

Joseph You know says you're on the air and then there's sort of this delay and eventually the voice comes up But yes,

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I remember I remember your phone call. Yes, sir Yes, yes, well, there's there's always some type of a delay when it comes to the internet but What can we do for you today?

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Okay, I I need help And what might be a little difficult?

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Okay, I have to tell you first You gotta give me a little time. I try to make it brief where I'm coming from.

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I am PK My dad is a pastor. Mm -hmm, and he's in retirement now

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So I've been a Christian all my life and you know in and I was my 20 years

21:24

Straight around a little bit, but I am married my wife. She is a Christian. She's actually from Columbus, Ohio, by the way

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And did she know Eric and Cantor I Don't know Funny thing is she she's she's a gospel singer and she was in my dad's church when he was still working and she was one of the lead singers and I She was on the gospel tour in Germany, right?

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And then I talked to him. This is how I Then we got married like a couple years after that and This is now eight years ago

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Anyways, so and since I'm together with my wife she kind of you know brought me Close up to God again.

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Mm -hmm, and I never left but I was you know Didn't pay much attention to the whole thing.

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However For some reason I'm Started to be like two or three years ago be very interested in Islam Not that I want to convert or so, but what they are doing

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I know personally Muslims a lot actually And I am in the closer you get to those people.

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They were real a lot of by themselves and I Figured there's something wrong there So I got in the internet and the research and I stumbled over Bali Chabad.

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You probably know about him, right? Yes, I do and I was done this way at looking at the

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Bible so then I looked further than I saw a You also on on a

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BN TV and On YouTube and how you explain things and just those things are eye -openers to me.

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I never Saw such a clear picture of God if I can say it that way and for example

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When Jesus is on the cross and says oh my god, why you have forsaken me, right?

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Muslims used us to trap Christians, right? and I Never paid much attention to it

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But now I know he's quoting from 22 and then when you read it, oh, it makes perfect sense, right?

23:42

Right. Exactly. So and what I'm trying what I need help for is I don't have anyone

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Who I can talk to really about this I mean I can talk to my parents with my daddy at the old and and they have did it there's a different way of Thinking about it.

24:00

I mean they always told me a Israel is crucial You have to watch out, but it was happening in Israel and yes

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Don't don't go against Jews because those are God's people. I he told me that all the time I've been raised like that.

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But other than that, I Talked to a pastor a couple of days ago and he said

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I told him about how Islam is possibly involved in that and How it all fits together?

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He was stunned. He didn't know nothing about it well it sounds like the

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I'm not quite sure about the the issues regarding Israel and things like that, but It sounds like what you're saying is you don't seem to find in the churches nearby you a whole lot of interest or zeal for sound theology and in -depth theology

24:53

Exactly. I won't I want to have intelligent conversation with other

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Christians share point of views and ask maybe questions and you know share ideas and Got those guys from x17 for example, right, right.

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I like what they're doing, but Well, yeah, and obviously they have

25:18

Rather pressing things that they have to do as well. So exactly obviously that kind of Fellowship is something that you look for in in your local area.

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Now, obviously I I've not even had the privilege yet of Traveling in Deutschland, I would love to come

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I'd probably at least be able to order my food but but So I I'm afraid

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I'm not gonna be able to be of much assistance as far as directing you to Any solid works in Germany because that's just not something that I'd be familiar with however we do have people that listen from around the world and it's it's possible that someone might contact us and I know that there's at least one of the individuals who runs the

26:09

Answering Islam website is German and I believe if I'm correct that he still lives in Germany So you you might want to contact the webmaster at answering

26:20

Islam org. It's answering dash islam .org What is it like a minor stash or Yes, uh -huh.

26:29

Uh -huh. Okay. Let me write this down. Yeah answering dash islam .org One of the the primary people that runs that website is is in Germany and hence probably would be the best person

26:41

I can think of I've taught my head to direct you toward people that would be Theologically sound and especially familiar with issues relating to to Islam That helps that information already helped me really a lot

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Yeah, but obviously Finding a solid well -balanced church is difficult enough in the

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United States it's far more difficult in the very secularized world of the

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European Union and So a part of What is certainly helpful to some people that I know of in those areas is the internet does provide a large amount of Recordings Certainly sermon audio .com

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is a is a real resource. I was using that this week Sermon audio s e r m o n a u d i o

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I Understand each first day Sermon audio .com

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Like all you like like sound. Yes. Yes sermon audio .com

27:55

You can find some tremendous Ministries there my own church is is there and there are many other churches very sound churches

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Where you know, it's it's not the same thing as talking with someone but you can find some tremendous resources there as far as teaching and In -depth exegesis of the text is concerned

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So there a lot of people do find The internet to be extremely helpful when they find themselves in a situation a lot of our military men for example have contacted me and they've spent time in Iraq or Afghanistan and they said their iPod is what kept them sane during that time because there wasn't much else that they could that they could do but hopefully that local contact there through answering dash

28:42

Islam org can can direct you to maybe some Some churches that you're not aware of in your area that might be of assistance to you

28:50

I really appreciate it and I want to share one thing with you and the listeners here

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That you know what's going on in Europe one example was about a year ago a

29:04

Pastor natural from a local church. He was like, I don't know how it's called in English But he was like a pastor for several churches in one

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If you have all the states in Germany like Bavaria like Berlin, you know and and from an entire state the head of the church from that the entire

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German state from the Lutheran Church in Germany, he recommended a prayer for Christians and Muslims together

29:32

Mm -hmm, so he was about to invite Muslim scholars or imams or whomever and they wanted to make a prayer together, which is

29:45

That's that's a no -no that you know, well, there's there obviously there there is a very strong Pressure placed upon Christians in Europe to be inclusivistic to not

30:02

Say that Jesus Christ is the only way and therefore to water down the gospel and the claims of Christ and Therefore to seek some type of least common denominator between various religions and that certainly happens

30:15

Amongst the monotheistic religions the Abrahamic religions Christianity Islam and Judaism where let's just drop our distinctives well, the reality is while liberal

30:25

Jews might be able to get away with something like that a Believing Muslim and a believing

30:31

Christian cannot do that. It's just not possible to do that And so it really is a pressure that's to to abandon the

30:40

Christian faith So I'm yeah, I'm well aware that's what you have there in Germany and and it's even worse in certain of the

30:47

Scandinavian countries and Yes, yes, yeah, it's amazing.

30:53

So my dad when he retired he auditioned other pastors to follow up ministry, right and And the one was there he didn't even believe in Jesus's resurrection as a pastor.

31:05

Can you imagine? No, I can't unfortunately. I've I've I And and unfortunately it is it is your own land especially around the area around Tübingen And the the

31:18

New Testament studies that came out of there in the 1800s the late 1800s that has laid the foundation for so much of the decay of Christianity in the last it really has so It's it's a shame and I unfortunately

31:34

See this happening in the United States as well Just not nearly as quickly and if we don't look your direction and see the havoc that it's that it brings

31:43

We will we will merrily march our way right down the same the same path if we don't learn from the errors of others

31:50

So be listening tomorrow night Peter for my debate with Abdullah Kunda on ABN Tomorrow night tomorrow tomorrow night.

31:59

Yeah, I'm always watch when the English stuff is on I don't make but when the English stuff is on I usually watch.

32:06

Yes. I'm checking it out. By the way, I saw some debates From Nabil, you know

32:13

Nabil Nabil Qureshi. Yes, exactly and and he was really winning that debate

32:18

Clearly and a Muslim is on YouTube Muslim by choice put it on and he thought he was winning

32:25

Oh, yes, of course Yes, yes very much so It is it is amazing how often

32:35

Individuals will think that they they performed wonderfully. Well, I certainly would not surprise me at all if the fellow you were talking about is

32:44

Osama Abdullah because Farhan Qureshi On Yes, yeah, yeah

32:55

Farhan now Farhan's a different type of fellow but yeah Farhan I've I've debated

33:02

Farhan and and probably will again the future. He's he's one of the guys I respect but there is

33:07

Yes, he is there. There is a blindness Well Abdullah Kunda my my opponent tomorrow evening is is one that I that I respect as well.

33:15

So but some of them like Osama Abdullah Absolutely implode and but always think that they won now the rock man is another one like that So yes, there there is a level of blindness there that that is without question.

33:30

Hey Peter We got a bunch of other folks calling No problem at all

33:40

I should have a dry our of dates galant in my hock Shula and Into So, thank you

33:49

Okay. Thank you. And god bless you and thanks for all the information. It really helped me good and tough Just keep it done.

33:56

I'm gonna better but all right What's wrong? What are you laughing at?

34:02

Did nothing go on? Okay All right. Let's get to the folks who've been waiting longest here and let's talk with Kyle, hi

34:10

Kyle. Hi, dr. White good I have no idea.

34:16

I Have a question,

34:22

I don't want you to get too deep into it if you don't want on Romans 7 I Had a

34:30

Fairly well -known reformed theologian he said that that we need to keep in mind that that Romans was written to a congregate or to to where the congregation would have had it

34:43

Had it read to him all at once and he kind of used this as a

34:49

Way to basically say if you're reading too far into it that that may not be your kind of Getting going overboard on what

35:01

Paul might have made of meant because you know it would have been heard all at once and The detail of these really thick commentaries would you know

35:11

Paul would kind of chuckle at because you know Well, what do you is that is that a valid?

35:18

No, I I don't think that it is not now. There certainly is a a method of interpretation that Becomes so obtuse and so Picayune, I suppose would be the term that that I could at least understand some criticisms of of where some scholars go some scholars get so deep into the woods that they couldn't find their way back out of the compass, but or a

35:44

GPS device, but real meaningful critical commentaries are are seeking to get to that very level of Understanding of what someone would have understood had they been in the original audience

36:01

That was that was hearing that epistle for the first time and so all they're doing the in -depth

36:08

Material that you find in for example Douglas Moo's commentary on Romans or Murray's commentary on Romans to the best that you can get is is certainly obviously a huge 500 page volume is much more than the original papyri

36:24

Letter that was delivered to the Romans But why is that there because we're living 2 ,000 years later and we're living in a different culture and we're living

36:32

Speaking a different language. And so all that extra stuff is meant to put us back in the position of Understanding what was originally spoken and that not only is talking about the language and the relationship

36:47

But it's also talking about putting Romans in the context of the rest of Paul's letters which is a perfectly valid thing to do because in some situations anyways, not in the letter to the

36:58

Romans, but In a secondary sense Paul had taught many of these congregations things orally

37:05

And at least the people at Rome would have been taught by people that Paul himself had taught or or had been

37:11

The church had been founded by people that he himself been trained and so we're missing some of the context they would have had and so the commentary is seeking to Consistently place

37:21

Paul's words within the rest of what he said Which having someone, you know coming along who knows

37:27

Paul back then would have provide the same type of thing It's seeking to address the language issues the proper translation issues the context issues

37:36

That's why a commentary that's a good commentary like that It's gonna be as big as it is is it seeking to fill in those particular aspects?

37:44

And so I don't think it's valid to say well, you know It was only you know, a certain number of papyri sheets long when it was first delivered

37:51

Why do you need some is 500 pages now? Well, because we have a lot of questions about what would have been originally written

37:59

Some questions that are asked in commentaries are beyond the scope of what the author was originally intending to communicate that that may be quite true

38:07

But the vast majority of the good Commentaries, you know, I'm using very much as I'm preaching through Hebrews FF Bruce Hughes O 'Brien's new pillar commentary on on Hebrews.

38:23

I'm finding useful material in all of these to Enlighten me as to backgrounds and uses and all sorts of things like that which distance and time

38:36

Have introduced to the issue and you have one other thing and that is

38:42

We are asking questions now in our context that not that would not necessarily been asked then

38:49

But still, you know, we need to have answers to and so I don't think it's valid Just simply say well, you know, all that stuff is is is worthless.

38:58

It's going far beyond what the original writer would have You know considered

39:04

I think that Paul Would have expected his audience to do due due diligence to understand what he was saying in the context

39:12

He was saying it and good commentaries. That's what they're that's what they should be doing Okay, that that helps very much.

39:20

Okay You you mentioned? Douglas Moo, do you would you would you fall on his side of the line on Romans 7?

39:29

Um What's his what's his what's his there's a you know, the big dispute in Romans 7 is is this a

39:36

Christian or non -christian? speaking here And I don't remember off the top of my head where Moo came down on that I I'm sorry

39:48

It's a hypothetical old covenant Jew. Yeah. No, I wouldn't I wouldn't come down that on that side

39:54

I think I would take the more I think the more common view that that Paul is describing his own situation there and because I'd But anyway, that that's that's okay.

40:05

Yeah All right, give us Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

40:13

Let's talk to Tanner up in Nevada. Hi Tanner Yes, sir

40:24

I'm a student at the University of Nevada Reno and this semester. I'm taking a world religions class. The professor is

40:32

Very against Christianity. He speaks out against it on a regular basis and I actually Somewhat appreciate it because it gives me a bit of a platform to to preach the truth of Christianity when

40:43

I can Through asking questions and things like that, but nothing he brought up that I I just don't know how to respond to is he claims that Early Judaism and Christianity even stole the concept of hell

40:57

From Zoroaster the founder of Zoroastrianism and I have never heard this before No, I don't know how to respond to and I was curious

41:07

As to what you thought or how you would respond. Well, it's a common assertion amongst

41:12

World religion profs who are infected with parallel mania Which is the idea that since there cannot be any divine revelation

41:22

Then you have to find something other than divine revelation as the source of everything

41:27

In a religion and so since there is a greater Clarity in the

41:33

New Covenant scriptures on the nature of the afterlife But that couldn't have come from revelation you can't have something like in continuing revelation in the sense of Old Covenant to New Covenant and Anything like that.

41:45

You can't have fulfillment of prophecies and all the rest that stuff Then you have to look around and everyone becomes borrowers from everything else now the fact that Both Jews and Christians detested paganism and hence would detest

41:58

Zoroastrianism or the Eastern religions and and their their polytheism and their their views of Cosmology and things like that.

42:06

That's irrelevant. You can ignore that part They'll go ahead and borrow wholesale from people they find

42:13

Unreprehensible if they can just fit it in because the only way you can explain where these things came from Because of your overriding presupposition, there's no such thing as divine revelation.

42:23

So it's it's a it's a circular thing It's what they've been taught very rarely Have they ever been challenged on a fundamental basis to even think about this type of a thing?

42:31

It sounds like your professor is very much like my daughter's professor at Glendale Community College When you do challenge them, their their response is is an acerbic

42:43

Of condescending you just must be a stupid fundamentalist type thing But they will never ever ever examine their presuppositions or anything like that.

42:50

They just they just won't even go there. So the response would be to point out the the shadows of the greater fulfillment that's found in the

43:01

New Testament in regards to Jesus constant and Repetitious teaching on the subject of hell that we can find in books like Isaiah You get toward the end of the

43:11

Old Testament and more light is being shed on the afterlife and the nature of Sha 'ul and and The the the shades that are in Sha 'ul and issues like that There's discussion of this in Robert Maury's book death in the afterlife that you might want to take a look at but the whole the whole thing devolves down to Why would anyone think that Jesus who taught more about hell and the eternal punishment than anybody else in the

43:40

New Testament or You know throw in the Apostle Paul for the two people who spoke the most about it Given that nothing else in their teachings or their theology shows any connection whatsoever with Zoroastrianism Why would you think that that's the one thing that they quote -unquote borrowed?

43:57

What's what's your evidence? They had any connection any contact with it all these things it really starts falling apart and another book

44:04

You might want to look at that to prepare you for all the parallelomania that you'll be encountering from this guy is

44:10

Ronald Nash's book The gospel it's the gossip see the Christ amongst the

44:16

Greeks or the gospel the Greeks the titles Going off the top of my head right now. Maybe someone will throw it up in the channel here in a moment but Nat just just look up Nash and the gospel in the

44:27

Greeks I think is the title of the book and I think you'll you'll find that to be extremely helpful anybody going to a secular

44:33

University Needs to read that and be familiar with it the gospel in the Greeks does seem to be the yeah

44:40

I've gotten that three times now in the in the channel the gospel the Greeks by Nash will be very helpful to you Okay, great.

44:46

And then um, so would you say that this? The revelation of hell is much like the

44:53

Trinity as far as kind of the progressive revelation of it and more revealed in the

44:58

Bible I've heard you quote BB Warfield on the Trinity and things like that. Well, yeah, I mean, obviously it's not the the focus of discussion in Obviously, we're referring to here is progressive revelation

45:09

That there are things are laid out since since certain things are related to other things

45:15

As as you get more in -depth revelation regards the nature of man And God's purposes in salvation then you get more revelation in regards to the nature of the afterlife

45:26

And there's certainly much more in the New Testament than there is in the Old Testament that point But again, since they're functioning on the idea that there can't be anything like progressive revelation.

45:35

God wouldn't have a purpose for anything like this they just Default into the well, it just must be something to do with borrowing from one religion to another

45:48

Okay, thank you so much. Okay. All right real quick. Have you done a debate on this subject or is there one coming up? But I can look for the not on Zoroastrianism in hell.

45:58

No Yeah, yeah, well some of it the debate with Dan Barker last year

46:06

October up in Oregon was very much on parallel mania and I did an unbelievable radio program with the

46:15

The foresters on the subject of hell, so those would be the two that would be the closest Thanks, Tanner, God bless alrighty helping folks along here and It looks to me that just go with the person who's been online

46:35

Longest Daniel. Hi Daniel. How you doing? What's up, sir

46:43

Wow, your fault your phone lines really really really bad. Are you outside or is there no it?

46:51

There that's weird. Whatever you're doing. It sounded better, but sound like you had a bunch of shorts in the line So if you're standing on one foot with one foot raised in the air right now stay in that position because we can hear you

47:01

I'll try okay. I had a question about 2nd Peter 121 just at the end of the verse

47:07

Looking the Texas receptus says hoi, I go a boy, and I was looking at the

47:12

Westcott and Horton it says Apo say you anthropoid, and I'm just curious about that Now which what's the reference there?

47:19

2nd Peter 121 would help if I had the right reference on the screen had it all queued up and to 1st

47:28

Peter 121 Unfortunately, so I'm going to try to get over To 2nd

47:34

Peter here as quickly as possible Okay, and Yeah, there's a couple different variants here toward the end and what what was your

47:48

Okay, actually This is the same text that I discussed with Dan Wallace when he was on the program last year

47:59

And What's the difference you have Very very important Variant I think it's very important that it reads for Amano a

48:11

Lollison a path a you anthropoid and that that be translated Men spoke from God as they're carried along by the

48:22

Holy Spirit You're correct that the The variant what it does is

48:30

Say holy men Spoke as they were carried along and you lose the origin of their speaking being a path a you and instead you have an emphasis upon the holiness of those men and I think that is

48:46

Has some fairly major theological significance to it But you will notice that the text in the

48:52

Nestle Allen text is witnessed by p72 Vaticanus and numerous others so it has a very very early

49:02

You know basis to it at that point and so that there was a discussion.

49:10

Oh That the the specific dividing line you'd want to listen to on that and I felt

49:15

I'm sorry yeah, it's August 6th of 2009 and That I think

49:23

I apologized later Poor poor Dan was not feeling well that day But he still was on with me and he had sent me an email that came in right before the program and hence

49:32

I did not see it because I don't do the the program in my office and he had specifically said Oh, let's let's not go for those.

49:38

Let's go for these. Well, I hadn't gotten it And so I just went with the ones that we hit it's written before now. You still handle it pretty well.

49:44

So I appreciate Dan's Patience, but you'll you'll hear our discussion of that on that August 6th one.

49:52

All right. Well, thank you very much. Okay. Thanks, man I think we're gonna make it all the way through here because we have only one call left and Let's talk with Walt in Michigan.

50:03

Hi Walt Hello, dr. White. Good evening. Good evening question for you, sir Just a little bit of background.

50:10

I was at the garden culture conference that you spoke at in Waterford, Michigan Yes, one of the things you did was a presentation on the basics of Islam, right?

50:18

And you would ask the people in the sanctuary who were attending Show of hands how many of you have read the

50:25

Quran? Yeah, and I think one hand went up this wasn't mine and what I wanted to do was in a sense take you up on the challenge and you would also mention that you would had an entry on the

50:37

Alpha and Omega Website concerning a chronological order of the Israelis and you recommended reading them in those orders were able to find that I was okay good, so I was able to find that I have started and I'm probably about a

50:51

About a good Tip of the way through the Quran right now. So you're still in the Meccan surahs right now.

50:57

Oh, yes Yes, and one of the things I've noticed is that there is What appears to be assuming that this is the voice of Allah that?

51:08

It's the plural as opposed to singular. Yeah, but for example, sir I 95 and I have for the translation

51:15

I have says that of goodliest fabric we created man Now my understanding from Islamic theology is that Allah is solitary monolithic not a trinity, right

51:28

What's the? understanding of a plural usage here I mean those wasn't just only in the surahs several others that I noticed and I was just trying to reconcile

51:39

What I'm reading here with my What I've heard of Islamic theology about Allah, right, right the vast majority of Islamic scholars and apologists and readers are going to identify the use of the plural in Reference to a law as the plural of majesty the royal we similar to ironically even the

52:05

The papacy frequently uses the royal we as well. We define this and we define that and so generally the understanding is that this is a really a manner of a

52:20

Majestic plural the you know, God speaking even though there are of course places where The singular is used when in reference to a law maybe acting a certain way something like that, but still

52:38

The the majestic plural is probably the most often repeated Explanation for why you have that form in the

52:46

Quran I don't see any basis for seeing anything more in it than that because it does seem to be

52:53

Well established usage in Semitic languages by that time period. So I know that there are some who

53:01

Dispute a very ancient appearance of a majestic plural in regards to Hebrew But there's no question that by the medieval period and and I would view the

53:12

Quran as as an early medieval work The plural of majesty was was well established and you can you can provide lots of examples of it in related languages.

53:24

I Appreciate your background on that. Thank you very much. Well, I'm I and I appreciate you taking up the challenge and Working through the working through the text keep in mind the fact that you are in the portion of the

53:37

Quran right now that and again that that Chronological order is

53:46

I Not perfect, especially because some of the ayah I'm sorry

53:52

Some of the surah are are mixed surahs in other words There's material in one surah from both the

53:58

Medinan and Meccan periods and so it's it's not perfect That's a whole lot better than just starting it at the surah al -fatiha and then reading straight through Which is surah one so but but keep in mind right now what you're reading is

54:11

Muhammad in the early period Muhammad As a persecuted minority prophet

54:18

Muhammad emphasizing monotheism in a polytheistic culture But you're gonna start seeing development and especially after the hijra and you have now he's in he's in Medina and He begins very quickly to be a political leader with political power.

54:38

I think you'll see Not only that the change in in tone But then there's there really comes a point where you can tell that the author realizes

54:48

I've tried to get the Jews and the Christians to come over to my side. I've tried to get them

54:53

To sort of be on on the on the page with me. It ain't gonna happen Therefore this is how we need to start dealing with them and you'll see that shift

55:03

But that's gonna that's gonna take you You know into the early part Really sort of the middle part of the of the

55:11

Medinan surahs and you're talking Approximately two -thirds is Meccan and one -thirds Medinan So you still got a ways to go but some of those

55:19

Medinan surahs are much longer too. So press press forward and What translation do you have?

55:26

Do you have Yusuf Ali? I'm looking at Penguins classic Dawood.

55:33

Okay. All right. Are there any are there any study notes or anything with it? Oh, there are some accompanying footnotes and the like.

55:39

I think if I remember correctly, there's just a little bit of Background that's there in the front, but it's not yeah, really.

55:47

It's not really extensive It's more the sense of something's obscure one or two words Dawood will

55:53

Elaborate but beyond that not really too much more of commentary Well, if you run it if you run a stuff that just really leaves you utterly befuddled there are a number of Websites I have about six of them actually got a dozen of them in my book bookmarks where you can like Quran I think

56:13

Quran browser .com is one of them where you can get multiple translations and so it's just as useful in comparing

56:22

NKJV ESV NESB and IV It's just as useful to to compare a number of translations with some some text that just seem really

56:33

Obscure in the translation that you're using the halal econ translation is often very useful along those lines, too

56:39

So those are all available online as well. All righty. Okay. Thank you very much. Okay. Thanks Walt. Bye.

56:44

All right. God bless Bye. Bye. All right. Well, excellent. Excellent. Excellent questions from all around the world today once again

56:51

Well, okay one from Germany It's a long ways away. It was about two o 'clock in the morning his time

56:58

That's I should have said guten morgen to him. Not not good. Good. No, but they're good and I or good good tonight actually, it's good and talk here, but not not where he is, but Excellent questions on a wide variety of subjects there

57:11

That's why we like doing the dividing line and the few of you who listen. I like listening as well

57:18

It is amazing where this program goes but Lord willing next

57:23

Tuesday, we'll be back here on the program and Please be praying for the debate tomorrow evening

57:30

My hope is it will be similar to the debate I had with Abdullah Kunda at the University of Sydney Last August over a year ago now where there was a very clear

57:40

I think testimony given to the gospel and the fact that the gospel is light and guidance that Whole debate if you'd like to sort of get revved up for tomorrow evening that entire debate

57:50

I posted from Australia and it is on YouTube so you can watch it to there and sort of get

57:58

Get your mind set up for tomorrow evening 8 o 'clock Eastern Daylight Time ABN sat .com

58:04

if you don't have the satellite connection get online my debate with Abdullah Kunda be praying for that We'll see you next week.

58:10

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58:35

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