March 8, 2019 Show with Dr. James R. White on “The Pope, the Grand Imam & the Joint Declaration on Human Fraternity”

Human Fraternity and the Vatican’s Joint Declaration with the Grand Imam

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century Gospel Minister, George Norcross, in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the Church and the world today.

Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation, to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Friday on this eighth day of March 2019.

And you know, many of you may remember that every time there's been a special landmark in the history of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, my guest, Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, has been involved in it, beginning with our debut broadcast in 2005, our relaunching debut in 2015, and today, he's our guest when we have our brand new opening for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, which you've just heard.

Thanks to some fine Christian folks who voluntarily did this just because of their love for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. I want to thank Will C., the new announcer for the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio intro, Jason Martin, who produced this creation that we had in the beginning, he's a producer and sound engineer, Richard Shukin was on lead guitar, Tyler Friesen on drums, and Davis Friesen on bass, and Jason Martin contacted me about a year ago and he said, you know, we did the opening for Dividing Line that James White hosts, and we would love to do your opening, and then, God willing, we will have that done for you.

And about a year later, we got that opening, and I'm very grateful because I really love that opening. And by the way, I want to also thank the lead guitarist for Skinny Molly, which is a group that is a collaboration between members of Lynyrd Skynyrd and Molly Hatchet.

Jay Johnson, whose father is actually legendary blues guitarist Jimmy Johnson, Jay and his wife Sandy, I met them providentially in Birmingham, Alabama at Chez Fon Fon restaurant when I was there for one night while returning home from Laurel, Mississippi, and Jay is a phenomenal guitarist.

I shared the opening that Jason Martin and his friends created for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and he loves it, and he actually gave some suggestions as to the timing of when the announcer came in and the music, which has been utilized for this final product.

And also, Pete Orta, lead guitarist of Petra, former lead guitarist of Petra, said he absolutely loves the opening, too, so thanks, guys. But now, it's my honor and privilege to welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

Good to be with you, Chris.

And I am excited that we have a very controversial issue that we are going to be addressing today, the Pope, the Grand Imam, and the Joint Declaration on Human Fraternity. And Dr. James R. White, before we even go into that, I mean, there's probably maybe only about one or two people on the planet Earth who listen to this show who might not be very familiar with Alpha and Omega Ministries.

Why don't you just share a summary of what Alpha and Omega Ministries is?

Wow. Well, we're the other people, Mormonism, and then expansion of Islam, Bible translation. You get done dealing with something when your caveat is, uh, it's just sort of, just sort of.

Yes, I remember I had a fascinating discussion on Islam with our mutual friend, Eddie Del Corp one day, and I was on the phone having this discussion, and it just dawned on me in the middle of the conversation that I was having a straight razor shave by a Turkish.

Barber while I was doing this.

That is not a joke. But he was a very nice and very talented barber. Thank God. But we, I just thank God that I have been blessed by your friendship and collaborating with you in Christ's Vineyard since 1995, and I busted a gut that I think most of my neighbors must have heard me laughing today when I sent a private message on the Facebook to James White to remind him to call into the studio five minutes before the show started, and he said, who are you and how did you get this number?

And of course, that goes by, that goes back to our first phone conversation.

Which we did at what, about 90 95. 95? Okay.

Yeah.

It might've been a little bit early. It might've been 94, but we had the debate in 96, did we not, the first debate with Jerry.

Matitek?

I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I had called James to invite him to debate Jerry Matitek's on the Marian Dogmas on Long Island, New York in 95, and after a pause of silence on the phone, he said, how did you get this number? Which totally put me at ease that this was going to be a wonderful conversation.

You weren't at ease until Which was, I'm sorry I'm late, I didn't have.

Time to prepare for today's debate. I have my entire library in storage.

Yep, yep.

I feel like David fighting Goliath today.

Yep, yep, yep. I pretty much, I pretty much, I could've written his opening statement. I really could've.

And then years later, I'm sitting in my office listening to a tape of a debate that Eric Svensson had with Jerry Matitek's years after the debate that you had on Long Island, and I'm listening and all of a sudden I hear Jerry say, you know, I want to apologize folks for being late today.

I had so many things that I had to do, and my library's in storage, and I feel like David fighting Goliath. I was like, what? I said, doesn't he realize these are recorded?

Well, I think the exact same thing about Bart Ehrman. He just said what when he and I did the fixer. So it's just sort of like, I knew where he was going, you know, all I had to do That's another subject for another time.

Yeah, and of course there's a difference between a standard joke that you might use and something that you are telling as factual reasons why you might not be as prepared as you should.

Be.

There's a totally different issue there.

Yeah, and I have not heard Jerry do a debate. I don't know what he's doing. Honestly, you know the last time I

When was that?

On Jeopardy.

Wow, when was that?

Oh, I'd say about four or five years ago.

He was on Jeopardy.

It was the be-all and end-all of all. So I'm sure he's still running around.

Yes, and the last, I don't know how many years ago, I think it was, I think it was about his activities. He had debated a Seda Vacantist before he was one, and that's the first time that I heard of a debate where one of the participants actually converted over to his opponent's ideology or theology.

That was a while ago.

That was

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, because he's been some weird You know, we're talking about stuff that people in the audience have no idea we're talking about either. No, well

Well, I speak to you so rarely these days. I like to catch up with you.

There you go.

But

As you know, I'm a grandfather. I've got four grandkids.

Wow, wow.

Yeah.

Well, tell her I said hello, and looking forward to the next opportunity I have to see her again and also to see Kelly again. So

And you've had Summer on, right?

Yes, just once, and I'd like to have her back. She was almost near her It wasn't that long after her debut of Sheologians, I don't think.

Oh, they're in their Right. Yeah.

I definitely will, and it's interesting how many people I have met at the G3 conference and other big events when I'm manning an exhibitor's booth, and they'll say to me, hey, you're the guy that does the debates with James White.

You emcee those debates and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I heard about James White through Summer White.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I had someone ask a question at the last conference I was at, so I'm like, yeah, that's cool. Many people in the audience said get up, so they definitely got it.

Well, we are talking, as I announced at the beginning of the program today, about an issue that I wanted to address because I had a number of my listeners contact me and say, when are you going to talk about this joint declaration that Pope Francis signed with a grand imam?

And I know that you had covered it to a more shorter version of it, of a presentation on this, on February 5th in the dividing line. It was an ultra-mega dividing line, almost three hours long, but you had a lot of topics.

This was only a small portion of that show, so I figured, well, let me have James back on the show to discuss this at a greater length, and we'll have audience questions as well. And, by the way, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com if you have a question for James.

Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

The Grand Imam, Catholic Ecumenism, and the Modern Catechism

Okay.

So, this document that I have seen described on a prominent Catholic website was, and I think I've heard it, or read it, under different specific titles, but this was called, on this particular website, the Joint Declaration on Human Fraternity, and obviously Pope Francis was involved.

Tell us about this grand imam who was involved, and tell us, you know, exactly what that even means, grand imam. There are a lot of people that, for some reason, because they know the Roman Catholic Church has a pope, they think every other religion has some kind of a pope, you know, some one main figure that is their go-to guy for the ultimate answer and final decision on things.

I can remember Bob Posch, my friend who now lives in Colorado, but you remember Bob Posch, Roman Catholic friend of mine who's still a dear friend, who actually indirectly helped me launch the decade-long series of the great debates that you had with Roman Catholics on Long Island, and my Catholic friend Bob Posch used to say to me, Oh, you just go by everything that your Pope Billy Graham says.

And I would respond, Bob, I'm a Reformed Baptist, and I'm sure there were much, far more priests, bishops, and cardinals involved in the Billy Graham Crusades than there are Reformed Baptists.

That's true, that's true.

But tell us about that, this grand imam. What is that, even, to start with, a grand imam?

Well, you know, a lot of money in what would flash in authority in Saudi Arabia or the U .S. looking for and keeping things to people, but the leadership seeking to, I'll tell you, the same level as even within Roman Catholicism.

I mean, there's a couple that we'll get to that conservative Roman Catholics shake their heads or just go, well, there goes Francis again. But, you know, you have imams who have positions of great authority, whether it be within scholarship or whether it be within the judicial decisions, fatwas, things like that.

But there's a lot of divisions in his statements. But then there would be others that would go, well, you know, I'm not really concerned about what he has to say. This isn't the same kind of, I was speaking with an imam, as an imam, as long as you do the prayers of any, what we would, hence, you can't really do anything like what we would call them.

And that's why we ask questions. If you proclaim a fellow Muslim as a kafir, or that he was not, you're the one that will be punished with what he would have been punished in light of even their teaching.

You'll argue, they argue about eschatology. Well, listen to...

What was the intention, that you can understand anyway, in getting together with Pope Francis, getting together with the grand imam for this joint declaration on human fraternity? It's funny because I know folks, friends of mine, and acquaintances who responded to this with, you know, I got bombarded with emails and texts and private messages about this monumental thing in their minds that has occurred, monumental in a horrible way.

And I basically responded, well, have you read the modern Roman Catholic catechism? I mean, this is not really something new in regard to some kind of appearance of unity that Muslims have with the Catholic Church.

And in fact, if you go to the modern Catholic catechism, many people are unfamiliar with this, even some Catholics, but in Article 841, the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place, amongst whom are the Muslims.

These profess to hold to the faith of Abraham, and together with us, they adore the one merciful God, mankind's judge, on the last day. And I brought that up years ago in the old Iron Trip and Zion Radio broadcasting out of Long Island, when I had David Wood debating Bassam Zawadi, and I asked Bassam Zawadi, do you adore the same one merciful God with the Roman Catholics?

Absolutely not.

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, and I'm a deep thinker. We did one debate on both sides.

Oh, you mean will non-Christians enter heaven?

Rutland.

Yeah, and even these monumental articles, if you can—all these popes have no meaning to it. In fact, it's in this document, and it's the other side.

Now, what was—going back to my original question about the purpose of it—why did Pope Francis or the Vatican say, we've got to sit down with a grand imam and have this joint declaration? What was the real purpose of it?

I have no idea. I would assume—I do not know. I'm a full man.

I could just picture in my mind, before the document was signed, a room filled with the cardinals and bishops and Muslims and imams, and having Pope Francis stand up in the midst of them and say, this is supposed to be a happy occasion.

Let's not bicker and argue about who said what and who killed who from the old Monty Python show.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I'm trying to get people not to use that term anymore. A wild-eyed leftist in his theology and his politics. And so, I don't know if we will—.

And who wrote that? Wow.

I'm not trying to deal with that. I don't—you just have—on what the faith was defined and probably a universal opportunity for this document that he has made that does seem to point toward a universalistic concept.

So maybe—I do know that it might be that it would be more difficult for the Roman Catholic side to substantiate any kind of—when you've got Francis going around, oh, homosexuality? Who am I to say? You know, it's just Catholic Answers staff video with some other girl called Taking the Red Pill.

How about realizing that what we've been saying all along is true, but no, it's—well, you know, this isn't going to last forever and blah, blah, blah. It's pretty hard to be making the types of arguments that Karl Keating and Jerry Madetich and all these guys—when you've got Pope Francis giving you headaches every single day.

That's why Jerry Madetich doesn't make those arguments anymore and says the chair of Peter is vacant.

Right. That's where he's safe. I told you.

Right.

Right.

And, well, we're going to go to our first break right now. By the way, did that Catholic Answers staff member who made that comment about the red pill, is that why he's a former staff member?

Well, I, you know—.

Okay, because my friend Robertson Jennis, who you know very well since you've debated him a number of times—.

Five times.

Yeah.

Bob shared with me that he was fired from EWTN for publicly being critical of Pope John Paul II, especially in regard to ecumenism with pagan priests and, you know, Wiccans and kissing the Koran and all that kind of thing.

And he got the door for that. But as much as I disagree with Bob, I do appreciate his willingness to try to be as honest as he can with the information that he has, no matter where the chip's for. But we're going to our first break right now.

If you have a question, you'll have to get in line because we do have a number of people already waiting now to have their questions asked and answered by Dr. James R. White. But if you have a question, please send it as soon as you can to chrisorensen at gmail .com.

C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. Chris Orensen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website with an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

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Private Interpretation, Excommunication, and Catholic Ecumenism

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, and we are addressing today something that created waves all over the world with religiously-minded people, and that is the Pope, the Grand Imam, and the Joint Declaration on Human Fraternity.

Our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. Please give us, as always, your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. If you live outside the USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And, Dr. White, we have a first-time questioner today, and it just so happens that it is somebody that I mentioned in the beginning of the program who loves the new intro of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, created by Jason Martin and the rest of the musicians involved in that really phenomenal new intro that we have.

I'm speaking of the former lead guitarist of Petra, Pete Orta, in Denison, Texas, and he has a two-part question for you. Is the Roman Catholic Church still against their members interpreting the Bible for themselves, meaning the priest is the only one allowed to interpret the Holy Scriptures?

That's the first part of his question.

Well, it seems you don't hear, well, you need the magisterium because... Right. And it just does not seem to me that the idea of objecting to the problem is the one who is going to be doing that interpreting into exactly how these beliefs... the old views of Roman Catholicism, the types of views that we...

And, of course, his question specifically said, is the priest the only one allowed to interpret the Holy Scriptures? And you will have multitudes of Catholic apologists say, in response to anyone mentioning that their local parish priest is a nut who believes in all kinds of crazy liberal left-wing things, well, what he says doesn't really mean anything.

Right, yeah, no, and obviously the olden-day local priest was...

Yes, and the problem that the Roman Catholic Church has when they accuse us of having a blueprint for anarchy in Sola Scriptura, they don't have an infallible interpreter for their alleged infallible interpreter.

Well, exactly, yeah.

Right.

Oh, that was Patrick that coined that? I thought it was a Scott Hahn for some reason.

I first heard him using that in that debate. In, what, 91?

And Pete Orta's follow-up question is, and if the Church is still against this, meaning private interpretation or reading the Bible on your own and exegeting it and so on, how do the priests handle it?

Are you excommunicated still in today's modern times? I think it takes an awful lot to get excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church.

You're not the only people who get excommunicated, or either people who get called a fidei dogma, and against that, you take these folks out. I did hear that, yeah, excommunication...

And you will typically see the most notorious of pro-abortionists and pro-same-sex marriage advocates on Ash Wednesday in the media with the cross of ash on their foreheads, and there's no public, official denunciation of these people who are viewing the murder of children as a sacrament, practically.

Pretty much, yeah.

And let's see, Pete Orta says, and yes, Dr. James, I do know who you are, and we have a couple of things in common, reform theology and cycling.

Oh!

And he says, bonus question, what's the longest distance you have ever been on a bike? Me, 105 miles.

Colorado.

Appropriate name for that.

Yeah, yeah, well, especially when you do the double-triple bike. You do that ride.

Well, thank you, Pete Orta, and we look forward to your return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio for another interview. You did a phenomenal job the last time you were on, the last two times, actually. We have another first-time questioner, Kevin from Philadelphia.

Is there a Christian justification for us to join with members of different religions to assent to a declaration affirming against social dogmas such as abortion or same-sex marriage, or would they be compromises of our faith in the name of ecumenism?

Yeah, and I sort of figured we'd be there by now. We are, how do you do that? If you look at it carefully, even globally, the Muslim, the law of God is coming again.

Even for somebody faithful to the Council of Trent.

You look at something like in the one, obviously.

The Limits of Ecumenical Coalitions on Moral Issues

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now. It's the longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, airs this program, and they need to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to the Lake City, Florida area with their own public service announcements and commercials.

So while we are airing our commercials that are global, and they are airing theirs, which are local, please use this time to not only write down information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them because we depend on the advertising dollars of our sponsors in order to exist.

So please try to patronize them as frequently and as heavily as you can, but also write down questions for Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. They can involve this joint declaration. They can involve Roman Catholicism.

They can involve Islam. They can involve anything regarding to reform theology. And I hope that you who are waiting already online to have your questions asked, I hope that you wait patiently, and we'll get to each and every one of you that time will allow.

So don't go away, God willing. We're going to be right back after these messages with more of Dr. James R. White.

My name is Steve Lawson, founder and president of One Passion Ministries, as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier Ministries. I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Masters Seminary in Los Angeles.

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Again, their information can be found at www .ncc .nyc. Have a great day.

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