March 8, 2019 Show with Dr. James R. White on “The Pope, the Grand Imam & the Joint Declaration on Human Fraternity”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania It's iron sharpens iron This is a radio platform in which pastors

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Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation

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To make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours

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And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions, and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen You Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron

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Sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 8th day of March 2019 and you know

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Many of you may remember that every time there's been a special landmark

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In the history of iron sharpens iron radio my guest dr James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries has been involved in it beginning with our debut broadcast in 2005 our relaunching debut in 2015 and today he's our guest when we have our brand new opening for iron sharpens iron radio, which you've just heard

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Thanks to some fine Christian folks who voluntarily Did this just because of their love for iron sharpens iron radio

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I want to thank will see the new announcer for the iron sharpens iron radio intro

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Jason Martin who produced this Creation that we had in the beginning.

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He's a producer and sound engineer Richard Shooken was on lead guitar Tyler Friesen on drums and Davis Friesen on bass and They Jason Martin contacted me about a year ago and he said, you know, we did the

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The opening for dividing line that James White hosts and we would love to do your opening and then

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God willing We will have that done for you and about a year later we got that opening and I'm very grateful because I really love that opening and By the way,

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I want to also thank the lead guitarist for Skinny Molly, which is a group

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That is a collaboration between members of Leonard Skynard and Molly Hatchet Jay Johnson whose father is actually legendary blues guitarist

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Jimmy Johnson Jay and his wife Sandy. I met them providentially in Birmingham, Alabama at Che Fon Fon restaurant when

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I was there for one night while returning home from Laurel, Mississippi and Jay is a phenomenal guitarist.

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I shared the opening That Jason Martin and his friends created for Iron Trip and Zion Radio and he loves it

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And he actually gave some suggestions as to the timing of when the announcer came in and the music

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Which has been utilized for this final product and also Pete Orta Lead guitarist of Petra former lead guitarist of Petra said he absolutely loves the opening too.

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So thanks guys But now it's my honor and privilege to welcome back to Iron Trip and Zion Radio.

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Dr James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries And I am excited that we have a very controversial issue that we are going to be addressing today the

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Pope the Grand Imam and the joint declaration on human fraternity and Dr.

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James R. White before we even go into that I mean this probably may be only about one or two people on The planet

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Earth who listen to this show who might not be very familiar to with Alpha Omega Ministries Why don't you just share a summary of what

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Alpha and Omega Ministries is? Wow, well We're the other people that have an opening from the members of gray level the

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Canadian progressive rock band No, I Know obviously

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Alpha Omega has been around Good grief 80 or 30 coming up on 36 years now hard to hard to believe and knowing rich and I We come up on the 40 and we'll forget all about it and probably won't even say anything about it but we've been at it for a little while as long as John MacArthur has been at it for 50 years, but We're getting there and we're a

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Christian apologetics organization. We're not a not a large organization Rich and I aren't smart enough to hire other people.

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So we just do it all ourselves and You know, we've We've had different seasons of focus sort of I've noticed that sort of how things have gone we start off primarily dealing with Mormonism and then expand out into Jehovah's Witnesses and Then started

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Dealing with the subject of Roman Catholicism, which is sort of where you became involved with with things there on Long Island for a number of years and then in around 2005 2006 began dealing with the subject of Islam and all through that there has been an emphasis on issues relating to Bible translation textual criticism sexual critical issues the

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King James only movement and things along those lines as well and Not certainly by any choice of mine over the past a couple of years the early past year the issue of the social justice movement and issues along those lines has unfortunately intruded itself into Into our work as well.

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That's not an area. I enjoy dealing with at all it's always a Not just a challenge, but in almost all the other areas

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You get done dealing with something and there's something positive you can sort of take out of it I this is the one area that I don't

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I hardly ever feel like there's something positive that you can take away from it at The end so it's it's a bit draining to deal with it.

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It doesn't seem to want to go away either but anyway, so we do with Christian apologetics and We'll just keep doing that Obviously start in 2005.

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I started traveling overseas to to do things and now most of what I'm doing Honestly as far as teaching and stuff is overseas

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I was teaching in Samara Russia back in January and had never experienced 28 degrees below zero but I got to do that and and of course driving through Tunnels of snow in in Russia in a in a taxicab is quite the interesting experience, especially when your cabbie is chatting away with your translator up front and they're discussing

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Islam and Make things really really really interesting.

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Yes. I remember I had a fascinating discussion on Islam With our mutual friend

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Eddie Delcour one day and I was on the phone having this discussion and I Just dawned on the me in the middle of the conversation that I was having a straight razor shave by a

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Turkish barber while I was doing That is not a joke, but but he was a very nice and very talented barber

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Thank God but we I Just thank God that I have been blessed by your friendship and collaborating with you in Christ vineyard since 1995 and I Busted a gut that I think most of my neighbors must have heard me laughing today when

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I sent a private message on the Facebook to James White to remind him to call into The studio five minutes before the show started and he said who are you and how did you get this number?

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And of course that goes by that goes back to our first phone conversation 95

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Okay. Yeah, it might have been a little bit early It might have been 94, but we had the debate in 96. Did we not with the first debate with Jerry man?

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I think I think so. Yeah but I had called James to invite him to debate

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Jerry medics on the Marian dogmas on Long Island, New York in 95 and After a pause of silence in the home said, how did you get this number?

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Which totally put me at ease that this was going to be a wonderful conversation You weren't at ease and until about ten minutes into my opening statement

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You were you were under great stress up until that point but about Well, actually about the third time that Jerry medics said exactly what

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I was what I said he was gonna say Was finally I think when you started to relax

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Which was I'm sorry. I'm late. I didn't have time to prepare for today's debate

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I have my my entire library and storage Yeah, I feel like David fighting

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Goliath today I could have written his opening statement.

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I really could have and then years later. I'm sitting in my office listening to a tape of a debate that Eric Svensson Had with Jerry medics years after the debate that you had on Long Island, and I'm listening also

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They hear Jerry say, you know, I want to apologize folks for being late today I had so many things that I had to do my libraries and storage and I feel like David fighting

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Goliath I was like what I said, doesn't he realize these are recorded? Well, I think the exact same thing about Bart Ehrman I mean if you if you listen to Bart Ehrman's debates, you know, he'll he'll say how many of you here evangelical

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Christians? Okay And how many of you here would like to see me get creamed in this debate and then you start laughing

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It doesn't matter if a it puts their hands And it's like okay, all right, man, it's stale dude, but whatever you say, so yeah, there are people that do that I mean all of us have stories we use it for public speakers

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But it's like come on Ehrman was so bad that he when when he and I did our debate in 2009 his

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PowerPoint presentation Contained the same typos that it contained two months earlier when he debated

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Dan Wallace. He had even You know, but he hadn't you know, he he doesn't think that we have anything meaningful to say anyways

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That's another that's another subject for another. Yeah, and of course there's a difference between a standard joke that you might use and something that you are telling as Factual reasons why you might not be as prepared as you should be.

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That's there's a totally issue Do a debate in Literally decades.

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I don't know if he does them anymore. I I don't know what he's doing Honestly, you know the last time

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I saw Jerry Manatee. When was that on Jeopardy? Wow, when was that?

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Oh I'd say about four or five years ago He Wow pretty and he lost on his first appearance

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So he didn't he didn't win or anything But I mean he didn't I guess end up with zero that's because he he bet it all at the end

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But yeah, he was he was actually on on Jeopardy and that was the last time I heard

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I'm not sure if there's if there's a morality tale to be Discovered from that given how

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Catholic answers was promoting him as the be -all and end -all of all things for quite some time in the early 1990s, but you know things things change and so do people

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I guess so, so I'm sure he's still running around out there I just don't know what in the world he believes anymore anything else.

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So, you know Yes, and the last I heard about his activities he had debated a state of vacantist before he was one and that's the first time that I heard of a debate where One of the participants actually converted over to his opponents ideology or theology

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That was a while ago that was He's been some weird variant of steady vacancies for a long long time

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But you know we're talking about stuff that has nothing to do with our topic and most of the people in the audience have no Idea, we're talking about either

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Well, I speak to you so rarely these days I'd like to catch up with you there you go, but Got four grandkids

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Summer's 30 years old now. How's that? Wow. Wow. Yeah. Well tell her

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I said hello and Looking forward to the next opportunity. I have to see her again and also to see

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Kelly again. So Well, you've had you've had summer on right? Yes just once and I'd like to have her back she she was was almost near her

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It wasn't that long after her debut of sheologians. I don't think They're there and there's you know, two and a half years in now, right?

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Yeah Yeah, yeah, you have to have her back on. She's she's a sharp cookie. I definitely will and it's interesting how many people

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I have met at the g3 conference and other big events when I'm manning an exhibitors booth and They they'll say to me hey, you're the guy that does the debates with James White you

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MC those debates and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I heard about James White through summer white

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Someone asked a question at the last conference I was at which Eddie Delcor is that as well and said addressed it to summer's dad

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So Speaking at a gas con

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Anglican Church in Belfast Northern Island just last year and I just happened to ask on a

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Saturday morning How many people in the audience that had gathered? Knew of sheologians,

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I'd say about third of the audience put their hands up. Well, that's that's pretty amazing in that short period of time

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So they definitely got a niche audience. I mean there aren't aren't too many Women out there doing webcasts where they're actually arguing against feminism and intersectionality and all the rest that stuff and and Arguing for complementarianism and stuff like that well, we are talking as I announced at the beginning of the program today about an issue that I wanted to address because I had a number of My listeners contact me and say when are you going to talk about this joint declaration that Pope Francis?

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signed with a grand imam and I know that you had covered it to a

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More shorter version of it of a presentation on this on February 5th and the dividing line it was an ultra mega dividing line almost three hours long and But you had a lot of topics.

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This was only a small portion of That show so I figured well Let me have James back on the show to discuss this at a greater length and we'll have audience questions as well

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And by the way, our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com Chris ARN z e and gmail .com

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if you have a question for James Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter so this

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Document that I have seen described on a Prominent Catholic website was and I think

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I've heard it or read it under different specific titles but this was called on this particular website the joint deck you'll declaration on human fraternity and Obviously Pope Francis was involved and tell us about this grand imam

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Who was involved and tell us you know exactly what that even means?

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Grand imam there are a lot of people that For some reason because they know the

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Roman Catholic Church has a Pope They think every other religion has some kind of a

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Pope, you know some one main figure That is their go -to guy for the ultimate answer and final decision on things.

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I can remember Bob posh my friend who now lives in Colorado, but you remember

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Bob posh Roman Catholic friend of mine who's still a dear friend who actually

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Indirectly helped me launch the decade -long series of the great debates that you had with Roman Catholics on Long Island and my my

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Catholic friend Bob posh used to say to me Oh, you just go by everything that your

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Pope Billy Graham says And I would respond Bob. I'm a

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Reformed Baptist that I'm sure there were much far more priests bishops and cardinals involved in the

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Billy Graham Crusades than there are Reformed Baptists But but tell us about that this grand imam, what is that even to start with a grand imam well

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Yeah, that's it. I have I've asked I had not heard of Ahmed.

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I'll tell you prior to this and Right now there are

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There's a lot of divisions. There's there's something Political flash religious going on in regards to Saudi Arabia the

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United Arab Emirates a lot of money and some some major Changes in what would be identified as as anything relevant to?

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conservative Sunni Islam flash wahhabism

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Of Salafism, I mean we we identify the wahhabis and the Salafis sort of as Islamic fundamentalists and that is the the primary

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Ground out of which extremism comes and you get your terrorists and things like that out of there very normally recruited out of those particular individuals, but those don't really represent what you have in Authority in Saudi Arabia or the

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UAE They want stability because well, they're making a lot of money and so they don't want terrorism and things like that and so the

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Saudis are always looking for some mechanism of Stability and keeping things going that and then of course if they're having to balance all sorts of different pressures and stuff

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And so Allah's are the universities You know, these these are our places where Terrorism can goes to look to find people but the leadership

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Generally is is not seeking to to inculcate that kind of kind of thing.

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It's all about asking my friends. This is so How is I'll tell you Viewed within Islam and I don't get a lot.

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I didn't get much in the way of response So just sort of like well, you know, the document raises some eyebrows when it says this or says that But you know, there really hasn't been much of a pushback from Islamic sources

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Certainly not on the same level as even within Roman Catholicism I mean, there's a couple statements within that we'll get to that make most

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Conservative Roman Catholics shake their heads or or or just go.

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Well, there goes Francis again but You know you you have imams who have positions of great authority whether it be within scholarship or whether it be within the production of Sikh the judicial decisions fatwas things like that, but there's a lot of divisions and so Just as we have to explain to folks that the

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Pope doesn't represent us Or that Billy Graham doesn't speak for for all

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Protestants or Well, you know pick a pick a name today of John Piper or something like that you know, they too have their divisions and so there would be some within his group that obviously would

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Attach a fair amount of authority to his statements, but then there would be others that would go

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Well, you know, I'm not really concerned about what he has to say There just isn't the same kind of I don't know how to describe it.

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I was I was speaking with with any mom About his work as an imam and it struck me how many differences there are for example, he was saying there is no membership at a mosque and So you just go to a mosque you want as long as you do the prayers

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It doesn't matter where you're doing them. And so you can have a completely different group showing up every week. There's no

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Development of any what we would call a pastoral relationship or knowledge of who's who

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And hence you can't you can't really do anything like what we would call discipline and that's why there's

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They really sort of wonder why we ask questions about Some of these individuals because we would want to say well that guy over there.

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I mean There's there's a guy who's becoming imbalanced or there's a guy that there's a complete heretic

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They don't really the more well -read Muslim realizes that there is actually a real hesitance of Proclaiming someone a coffer an unbeliever if you if you proclaim a fellow

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Muslim as a Coffer and in the judgment day, it's discovered that he was not you're the one that will be punished with what he would have been punished with if you had been right and so there's a

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Hesitancy in light of that type of a concept of to pronounce on somebody else's

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Spiritual standing or even even their teaching you'll you'll argue There's do they have plenty of arguments and and they they argue about eschatology just as much as we do if not more but They they you know will listen to what

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I'll tell you it has to say but You know unless you're within his particular group of sphere of influence like well, he's

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Yeah, he's a well -known cleric It should be respected as well on cleric, but it's not like he's the

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Pope of all of all Muslims or anything like that Because there really isn't Anything like that and that's what made

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Isis weird is that Isis was basically saying they were Re -establishing the caliphate and hence you would have a caliph who could speak for all

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Muslims And he's not pretending to be a a caliph. This is a this is a theological

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Document and as such Is is very interesting, but even from the

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Roman Catholic side, it's not binding This is some kind of dogmatic statement

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What was the intention that you can understand anyway?

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in getting together With Pope Francis getting together with the

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Grand Imam for this joint declaration on human fraternity. It's funny because I know folks friends of mine and acquaintances who

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Were responded to this with you know, I got bombarded with emails and texts and private messages about this

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Monumental thing in their minds that has occurred monumental in a horrible way and I basically responded

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Well, have you read the modern Roman Catholic Catechism? I mean, this is not really something new in regard to some kind of appearance of unity that That Muslims have with the

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Catholic Church and in fact If you go to the modern Catholic Catechism, many people are unfamiliar with this even some

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Catholics but in article 841

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The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place amongst whom are the

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Muslims These profess to hold to the faith of Abraham and together with us

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They adore the one merciful God mankind's judge on the last day and I brought that up Years ago in the old iron trip and Zion radio broadcasting out of Long Island when

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I had David Wood debating Bassam Zawadi and I asked Bassam Zawadi. Do you adore the same?

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One merciful God with the Roman Catholics. Absolutely not Yeah, yeah, and I the first person that I asked his thoughts on this was the

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Very nice young man. He's a you know, a deep thinker and I'm looking forward to Engaging with him in in the future again.

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We did one debate together at Trinity Chapel in Wandsworth a number of years ago

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But we really haven't had the opportunity of doing anything since then but I do want to do that again with him, but Yeah, that's that's just it is is

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At least from a conservative Perspective I would just have to say that a a thought a

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Thoughtful Muslim is not going to say that we adore The same

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God and that's what made some of the statements in in this document I think questionable and caused at least some people to raise their eyebrows

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At it on both sides because it does seem to follow that same

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Perspective that's found in section 841 and of course, we did an entire debate on that very issue on Long Island Many many many moons ago.

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I've forgotten the name of the fellows. We did the debate with I can see him Oh, you mean will non -christians enter heaven?

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Well, yeah, I mean we got into into that particular aspect of it to build something

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Rutland Bill Rutland. Yeah, right, right Yeah, and he didn't didn't really get clear concise answers really from anybody even even back then on exactly what was going on there, but Francis obviously goes as a

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Pope far beyond where any of those Those folks ever went and any of the probably even any of the people that were involved in writing the catechism.

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He's He's way way way out there. I don't know how anybody can listen to what the man says and look at his record and look at his words and his action and and not see just a

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Continental -sized difference between himself and his predecessor on Fundamental articles of faith it just If you can if you can sit there and say, oh, yeah all these guys

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All these Popes they they all together are Protecting the one deposit of faith.

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Well that deposit of faith has no definition to it has no meaning to it it's very very obvious and that that is reflected in this document in its language and and All sorts of stuff like that.

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It's it it just Reeks of it there. I mean there's there's things in here that you can tell come from the other side

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But a lot of the ishy -squishy language, I think goes not to Akhmet Altaïr, but to Pope Francis that it just reflects his

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His worldview now what was going back to my original question about the purpose of it?

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Why did the Pope Francis or the Vatican say we've got to sit down with an grand imam and Have this joint declaration.

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What was the real purpose of it? I Have no idea I would assume that there had probably been contacts and discussions about this for quite some time that would not have

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Had much opportunity of fruition under Ratzinger Benedict Because I think

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I just thought I just cannot imagine Cardinal Ratzinger Writing something like this or agreeing to something like this but obviously

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Francis has been Pope for a while. So why exactly now? I I do not know

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But there may have been some doors open to the past and then did Akhmet Altaïr You know through his people

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Contact the Curia. I have I've not seen anything that discusses that at all

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Francis has been criticized for Not speaking out loudly enough or often enough in regards to the persecution of Christians in Muslim lands

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So maybe this is a way of of dealing with that. I I don't know

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I Could just picture in my mind before the document was signed a room filled with The Cardinals and bishops and and Muslims and imams and having

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Pope Francis stand up in the midst of them and say this is supposed to be a happy occasion

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Let's not bicker and argue about who said what and who killed who from the old money play? But yeah

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He does seem to have that sort of Well, you know, we're you know, we're talking about a a wild -eyed liberal or talking about well

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I mean, I'm trying to get people not to use that term anymore. I was raised using it, but A wild -eyed leftist.

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Yes, and in his in his theology and his politics and so I have no worthy idea and I don't know if we will in this lifetime know a

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What caused Ratzinger to resign? There's lots of theories. I mean, there's all sorts of theories There's supposed to be quite a good book.

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I've already pre -ordered it, but I haven't seen it yet Some people have already read it I'm not sure how that works out, but I have pre -ordered this in what's it inside Vatican closet or something like that.

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Um, I'll get to it once it comes out, but and who wrote that Former well a

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Roman Catholic priest. It's Gay mafia and homosexuality

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Wow on so forth in Rome But I guess he was right in the middle of it and I would not be surprised for a second if Ratzinger's Just got out of there because he got so sick and tired of trying to deal with that.

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I don't know How then do you go from Ratzinger to? To Francis still don't know that is that is a mystery that like like I said

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I'll bet you there is a specific reason for it. But whether we'll ever know it in this life. I I But it does result in the simple reality that to any thinking person

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You just have to stand your head and spin in circles to to avoid the reality that you're talking about two men with very very different perspective on what the faith is and how it's defined and No one can tell me that Francis isn't minimally and inclusive and probably universal and You know, who knows?

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Maybe that's what opened some of the opportunity for this document is Statements that he has made that that does seem to point toward a universalistic concept

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So maybe folks on the other side figured this was a good time. I don't know I don't know, but I do know that it's it's tough days for Roman Catholic apologists when

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I see some Protestant -converting right now Roman -Catholic I just roll my eyes.

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There's there's something else going on here because I would I could I just can't imagine a time

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That would be more difficult, right? for the Roman Catholic side to substantiate any kind of Ultimate claims of authority when you've got

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Francis going around. Oh homosexuality. Who am I to say? You know, it's just And and I listened to a former

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Catholic answers staffer out on air personality did a

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Video with some other people. I don't know about six months ago called Taking the red pill on Pope Francis and It was just like, you know, we got to wake up and realize this is what's going on And this is the nature of this papacy and you know, what do you do about it?

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And we're all sitting there I'm listening this going how about considering the whole thing's a mess in the first place

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How about realizing that what we've been saying all along is true, but no it's well

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You know, this isn't gonna last forever and there have been anti -popes in the past and blah blah blah but it's pretty hard to be making the types of arguments

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Carl Keating and Jerry Matta ticks Patrick Madrid Scott Hahn and all these guys were making back in the 90s

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When you've got Pope Francis running around Giving you headaches That's why

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Jerry Medecas does doesn't make those arguments anymore and says the chair of Peter is vacant Yeah, well he obviously did that long before Francis came along and I'm sure he's

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I'm sure he's going Right, but he was saying that when

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Right and Well, we're gonna get our first break right now. By the way, we did that Catholic answers

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Staff member who made that comment about the red pill. Is that why he's a former staff member? Well, I I you know they don't want to say but I can't

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I can't imagine that it was not at least part of the Of the process.

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Yeah. Yeah Patrick Coffin. Okay, cuz my friend Robertson Janice So, you know very well since you've debated him a number of times five times.

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Yeah Bob Shared with me that he was fired from EWTN for publicly being critical of Pope John Paul to especially in regard to ecumenism with pagan priests and you know

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Wiccans and and Kissing the Quran and all that kind of thing and he got he got the door for that but As much as I disagree with Bob I do appreciate his willingness to try to be as honest as he can with the information that he has no matter where the chips fall

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But we're going to our first break right now If you have a question You'll have to get in line because we do have a number of people already waiting now to have their questions asked and answered by dr.

36:33

James R. White But if you have a question, please send it as soon as you can to chris arnzen at gmail .com

36:40

chris arnzen at gmail .com Please give us at least your first name your city and state of residence in your country of residence

36:47

If you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, don't go away

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We'll be right back with dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio

37:02

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visit citizenpriest .com today Welcome back.

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This is Chris Arnzen And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is dr

43:30

James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries and We are addressing today something that created waves all over the world with Religiously minded people and that is the

43:44

Pope the Grand Imam and the joint declaration on human fraternity Our email address is

43:50

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Please give us as always your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the

43:59

USA, please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and Dr.

44:07

White we have a first -time questioner today and It just so happens that it is somebody that I mentioned in the beginning of the program who loves the new intro of Iron Sharpens Iron radio created by Jason Martin and the rest of the musicians involved in that really phenomenal new intro that we have speaking of the former lead guitarist of Petra Pete Orta in Denison, Texas and He has a two -part question for you.

44:40

Is the Roman Catholic Church still against their members interpreting the Bible for themselves? Meaning the priest is the only one allowed to interpret the

44:49

Holy Scriptures That's the first part of his question well

44:58

Nothing. Nothing has changed technically The problem is that's obviously consistent with Roman Catholicism as we knew it 50 years ago

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But When you when you start talking about Francis, that's that's the whole thing

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He seems to be open to so many other types of Expressions and perspectives and viewpoints that you don't hear him

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Saying well you you need the magisterium to tell you, you know what to believe about X Y or Z You just he just operates in such a different realm

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Then apologetics must operate it I mean, I've come at it many times that liberals on any side don't produce apologists

45:50

Because they don't really believe anything. So why should they argue about it? It's sort of like, you know when we had the debate with Barry Lynn, you know

45:58

There is a reason why he was frustrated by the end he doesn't really believe anything and that came out that came out fairly clearly and So when you have someone like Francis it just does not seem to be the time of apologetics within the

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Roman Communion and it and Some people would argue. It's not the time of apologetics within our entire society because the idea of objective truth a revelation from God That's binding upon everyone

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All those things are very much out of step with a secularizing

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Western world, there's no two ways about that. So You know the to answer that question.

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You'd have to go back to the catechism You'd have to go back to Vatican 2 and those documents those documents haven't been changed

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But that this is this does illustrate the problem you can have documents say

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X Y or Z They then have to be interpreted by someone and when this Pope is the one who is not so much interpreting but himself

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Assigning people to important positions that sort of determine that type of thing determine who's going to be doing that interpreting

47:07

That's why between one pontificate in the next you can have massive swings into exactly how these beliefs are applied and things like that, so I've not heard

47:21

Francis addressing that issue directly But The old the old perspective required the old views the

47:32

Roman Catholic the types of views that we encountered when we did those debates back in the 90s and early 2000s and It's tough for those guys to keep doing what they're doing when the

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Pope's going You know sitting there going well who I don't know or a little boy comes up and my daddy was an atheist And he's died.

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Did he go to hell and Well, no because he had you all baptized. Yeah, I mean It's it's really hard to see

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How that fits with? And of course his question specifically said

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Is the priest the only one allowed to interpret the holy scriptures and you will have multitudes of Catholic apologists say in response to anyone

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Mentioning that their local parish priest is a nut who believes in all kinds of crazy liberal left -wing thing

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Oh, well what he says doesn't really mean anything Right, yeah, no and it obviously the the olden days was you know that that local priest was the voice of the church but Even at that point they'll say well, okay, but no we're talking about the church in the sense of the entire magisterium and and you know if they want to get real technical and specific that they will certainly dismiss the particular any particular priest that would say well there is a

48:51

Agreed -upon general teaching But again today within Roman Catholicism, there is such a massively wide

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Perspective that is being expressed even amongst those priests that it's like I said, it's a difficult time for for those apologists

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Yes, and the problem that the Roman Catholic Church has when they accuse us of Having a blueprint for anarchy in sola scriptura

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They don't have an infallible interpreter for their alleged infallible interpreter

49:27

Well, exactly. Yeah. No, it's the blueprint for anarchy argument has never worked and But it has never worked less than it does now, right?

49:37

Yeah, I haven't I'm sure it's not gonna stop Patrick from repeating it, but he's got to see

49:45

What the problems are along those lines right now it must be difficult each day Oh, that was Patrick that coin that I thought it was a

49:51

Scott Hahn for some reason I'm pretty sure it's Patrick Madrid I mean,

49:56

I first heard him using that in that debate in what 91 or something like that I forget exactly what the year was over in Los Angeles and then

50:08

In the book against solo scriptura, that was the title of his chapter. So I've always said that specific phraseology

50:16

Patrick Madrid who has a Regular radio program on EWTN and that's that's sort of what he what he does and Pete Orta's follow -up question is and if the church is still against this meaning private interpretation or reading the

50:34

Bible on your own and Exegeting it and so on. How do how do the priests handle it?

50:39

Are you excommunicated still in today's modern times? I think it takes an awful lot to get excommunicated from a

50:46

Roman Catholic About the only people who get excommunicated or either people who get caught in sex scandals or people who try to ordain somebody

50:56

I mean when you look at what is believed by the majority of the

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Professors at Boston College or Boston University It you know, they're so far out of the mainstream and and Technically there is a automatic

51:18

Excommunication that God does basically when you reject a feed a dogma so there's there's sort of a spiritual excommunication then there's when the church gets around to catching up with What God has already done and there are some

51:33

Roman Catholics who would argue that there's a vast difference between those two and that that explains

51:40

Why the church is so hesitant to do anything relevant today, but yeah, it's a mess.

51:46

I Every time you know people in Congress who are allegedly

51:53

Roman Catholics Pass laws or take positions that are 1000 % against that of the

52:01

Roman Catholic Church on abortion and infanticide everything else. I'm just sort of like well, you know you guys get serious and actually take these folks out and Do not allow them to partake at the mass or whatever else it is.

52:14

You might want to do then talk to me, but You're not doing that. Officially. It's not coming from up top.

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I did hear that it there was a bishop that Did take an action recently in regards to one

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Ultra leftist Democrat Promoting infanticide or something like that, but that was just one individual

52:33

Yeah excommunication doesn't happen very often and you will typically see the most notorious of pro abortionists and pro same -sex marriage advocates on ash

52:47

Wednesday in the media with the cross of ash on their foreheads

52:52

You know in this there's no public official denunciation of these people who are viewing

53:01

The murder of children as a sacrament practically And Let's see.

53:09

Oh Pete Orta says and yes, dr. James I do know who you are and we have a couple of things in common reform theology and cycling

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And he says bonus question. What's the longest distance you have ever been on a bike me 105 miles

53:27

I Am a knight of Sufferland Rhea, which means I on a trainer indoors a smart trainer.

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I I did the knighthood for Sufferland Rhea exercise videos, which took me 232 miles one day

53:45

Outdoors, my longest ride is 202 miles and Regularly, you know,

53:53

I'm training right now. It's tough. I'm getting older. I've got a left hip causing me problems right now

54:00

But I'm still training for the big rides up in Colorado that I do including the triple bypass ride

54:06

Which is 120 miles ten thousand five hundred feet of climbing in one day at high altitude

54:13

Appropriate name for that. Yeah. Yeah Well, especially when you do the double triple bypass, which is they haven't offered that for a few years now

54:20

But I've done it three times you do that ride you stay the night in Avon, Colorado Then you write back the next day.

54:26

So it's 240 miles 21 ,000 So that's pure insanity. I think it's even more insane to do my favorite ride

54:36

Which I'm training for which is not haven't so climb Because the finish line and that is at fourteen thousand one hundred and thirty feet of sea level

54:44

So there's half the oxygen at that that altitude And once you get up that high even gerrymatid tick starts out sounding sane

54:57

Well Thank You Pete Orta and we look forward to your return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio for another interview

55:03

You did a phenomenal job the last time you were on the last two times actually We have another first -time questioner

55:10

Kevin from Philadelphia Is there a Christian justification for us to join with members of different religions to assent to a declaration?

55:20

affirming Against social dogmas such as abortion or same -sex marriage or would they be compromises of our faith in the name of ecumenism

55:31

Yeah, and I figured we'd be there by now. We'll probably get into the next hour a little bit more but that is really what

55:39

What some of the issues are is Looking at the actual language

55:45

The question is How far can you go without compromise in saying okay?

55:52

We all live in the same? same world and We are especially in places like Israel significantly

56:04

Packed together. We can't avoid each other I I was in Israel a few months ago, and I decided to run from Our hotel where we were staying to the gates of the

56:15

Garden of Gethsemane and back again It was only two and a half K one direction so 5k run

56:21

What I didn't realize is I had to run down through a completely Arab neighborhood to get there

56:28

And so I just kept on running figuring they had no idea in the world I was and as long as I didn't slow down. I was probably be okay, but the point was

56:35

That everything is packed so tightly over there that you have to live life

56:41

In a common fashion, and so the question becomes how do you do that do we can we have?

56:49

conversation is there a place for recognizing that religious people as a whole find transgenderism and profaning of marriage and these issues to be destructive of of all human flourishing and that as people of faith you can stand up and say no

57:14

God has created in such a way that this is inappropriate that's really what you're sort of looking at with this document because If you look at it carefully

57:26

It says numerous true proper things it does identify a new numerous areas where Muslims and Christians as a whole would

57:41

Agree with one another that The direction in which society is going generally even globally not so much in Africa but in many other most of the

57:51

Western countries is destructive of human flourishing destructive human happiness and destructive of society as a whole but what's interesting is

58:05

I did a search on it, and it it never refers to Jesus as Lord.

58:12

I don't believe it refers to Jesus at all and so the question becomes

58:19

What does that foundation look like and how does it differ fundamentally because?

58:25

The Muslim cannot view Jesus as Lord and cannot view the law of God as having been affirmed

58:33

In his death, burial and resurrection, and he's not coming again and so We have these fundamental differences along those lines

58:44

So how do you handle? that aspect of This without giving the impression that You can actually address what's going on this world outside the

58:59

Lordship of Christ That's really where the where the question comes up and obviously

59:04

I did not find the documents answers on that to be very helpful and in fact the paragraph that caught the attention very strongly of even

59:17

Roman Catholics has the specific Statement this divine wisdom is the source from which the right to freedom of belief the freedom to be different drives

59:32

Wait a minute. I'm sorry I Skipped a sentence the pluralism and the diversity of religions color sex race and language are

59:41

Willed by God in his wisdom through which he created human beings so it affirms the fact that human beings are created, but notice it says the pluralism and diversity of religions are

59:57

Willed by God in his wisdom now both From a

01:00:02

Christian perspective and a Muslim perspective For different reasons. That's a highly problematic statement even for somebody faithful to the

01:00:12

Council of Trance Definitely right and so You you look at something like that and okay religion that says color sex race and language left different That that's that's that's in the creative decree of God as to how human beings are to exist and how they how they express their existence, but this basically says that pluralism plural religion is

01:00:39

Willed by God in his wisdom now. We would say everything it takes place one person does so under the decree of God, but that that takes us into the discussion of The secret will of God his decree and then his revealed will which is found in his word and In the one obviously it's his intention that there be distinctions so that those who are approved can be seen

01:01:06

But in in the other the idea of saying well, yeah God wants to do this he wants to establish

01:01:12

Islam over here for these folks and wants to Christianity over here, and it's okay for the Buddhists over there and Obviously that leads to this whole pluralistic concept that I think there are lots of pluralists in Roman Catholicism But that's not the historical perspective

01:01:30

Well, we have to go to our midway break right now It's the longer the normal break because grace life radio 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida Airs this program and they need to localize Iron Trip and Zion radio to the

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Lake City, Florida area with their own public service announcements and commercials So while we are airing our commercials that are global and they are airing theirs which are local

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Please use this time to not only write down information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully

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Patronize them because we depend on the advertising dollars of our sponsors in order to exist

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So, please try to patronize them as frequently and as heavily as you can But also write down questions for dr.

01:02:13

James R. White of Alpha and Omega ministries. They they can involve This joint declaration that can involve

01:02:19

Roman Catholicism. They can involve Islam. They can involve anything in regarding to reform theology and I hope that you who are waiting already

01:02:29

Online to have your questions asked I hope that you wait patiently and we'll get to each and every one of you that time will allow so don't go away

01:02:38

God willing we're gonna be right back after these messages with more. Dr. James R. White My name is Steve Lawson founder and president of one passion ministries as well as teaching fellow for Ligonier ministries

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I serve as professor of preaching and oversee the doctor of ministry program at the Masters Seminary in Los Angeles I would like to recommend the church where one of my preaching students

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Andy Woodard serves as the pastor It's called New Covenant Church NYC. They are a reformed

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Baptist Church that meets in midtown, Manhattan You can find their service times and location on their website, which is www .ncc

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If you're looking for a church that believes in expository preaching which is simply biblical preaching in New York City I'd like to recommend that you visit

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New Covenant Church, NYC again, their information can be found at www .ncc

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.nyc Have a great day Chris Sorensen host of iron sharpens iron radio here.

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01:13:32

So if you could Pete Orta and also Kevin from Philadelphia, please give me your full mailing addresses so I can give them to CV BBS .com

01:13:42

and Before we return to our discussion with dr. James R white on the Pope the Grand Imam and the joint declaration on human fraternity

01:13:50

We just have some special announcements in regard to events coming up that we want you to attend The sanctification through suffering conference is being held

01:13:59

March 15th through the 16th and Freehold, New Jersey featuring Justin Peters Frank Mullis Joe Swozo and Colleen sharp if you would like more details on registering for this conference

01:14:11

March 15th through the 16th and Freehold, New Jersey Go to striving for eternity org striving for eternity org and then

01:14:20

The Word of Truth Church in Farmingville, Long Island, New York is going to be hosting a debate on Saturday March 30th

01:14:29

This debate is between the pastor of Word of Truth Church Bruce Bennett and a

01:14:35

Roman Catholic Apologist Matthew Luke Broderick. The theme is purgatory. Is it biblical?

01:14:41

That was the theme of probably one of the most memorable Catholic debates on Long Island with dr

01:14:47

James R. White that nearly led to a lawsuit If a summary for some reason you never want me to emcee anything that involves

01:15:05

Muslims or homosexuals, I don't know But I did do that anyway and I did

01:15:12

I think I did a very Hahaha But anyway, if you want to attend this debate on Saturday March 30th in Farmingville, Long Island, New York at the

01:15:28

Word of Truth Church go to WOT church calm for all the details WOT church calm

01:15:35

That's the debate on purgatory. Is it biblical between pastor Bruce Bennett and Catholic apologist

01:15:41

Matthew Luke Broderick on? Purgatory is it biblical and then coming up?

01:15:47

after that I'm having a debate on Iron Sherpins Iron Radio between Gary DeMar and a

01:15:54

Reformed Baptist pastor and author Doug Van Dorn The debate is on the theme

01:16:02

Let's see here it is on were the sons of God in Genesis 6 of natural or supernatural origin

01:16:10

Gary DeMar most of you probably are familiar with him the former president of American Vision co -founder of actually he wasn't the co -founder he existed before he joined the staff there, but he has been well -known

01:16:24

Affiliated with the American Vision for many years until his recent retirement officially from that ministry

01:16:30

But Gary DeMar is also an author a guest on this show a number of times

01:16:35

Doug Van Dorn has also been on the show And not only is he a pastor, but he wrote the book Giants sons of the gods

01:16:41

He is taking the position that the sons of God in Genesis 6 were of supernatural origin

01:16:48

Whereas Gary DeMar is taking the position that they are of natural origin. That's on this show

01:16:53

Iron Sherpins Iron Radio Wednesday, April 10th 4 to 6 p .m. Eastern Time So mark that on your calendar so you could listen in and we hope that you are

01:17:02

Enjoy and are blessed by that and then coming up is a conference that I love to attend every year

01:17:10

Here in Pennsylvania at the Elizabethtown College, that is the East Coast ministers conference of banner of truth and that is

01:17:17

May 28th through the 30th and The theme is I believe in the Holy Spirit the speakers are

01:17:22

Jeff Kingswood Terry Johnson David Vaughn Who's a reformed Baptist missionary in France? Stephen J.

01:17:28

Nichols the president of the Reformation Bible Bible College, which was founded by the late RC Sproul and Ligonier ministries

01:17:34

Michael Morales and Chad Vegas That's May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania the

01:17:41

East Coast ministers conference of the banner of truth If you would like to register for this conference go to banner of truth org

01:17:47

Banner of truth org click on events and then scroll down to East Coast ministers conference They have other conferences that might be closer to you on the

01:17:55

West Coast and in the United Kingdom and I know that we have listeners in Places all over the globe

01:18:00

So if you see a conference nearer to you that you'd rather attend you could click on that as well I hope as many of you as possible though come to the conference where I will be

01:18:08

God -willing East Coast ministers conference May 28th through the 30th in Elizabethtown, Pennsylvania And I believe in the

01:18:15

Holy Spirit last but not least the foundations conference is being held once again in Manhattan I love this conference as well.

01:18:22

And if you would like to attend this conference, I would strongly urge you register Urge you to register as quickly as possible because the venue only seats about 200 people the speakers include dr

01:18:33

Stephen J Lawson who you just heard moments ago Voicing the advertisement for New Covenant Church NYC one of our sponsors

01:18:42

Dr. Stephen J Lawson is truly a profound preacher and teacher one of my favorite preachers as well

01:18:49

Reverend Jeff Thomas a Retired pastor in Wales and author and if you've never heard him

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You've got to take a train plane or automobile to wherever he is preaching because he is absolutely phenomenal

01:19:01

Richard Caldwell jr. Reverend Armin Tomasian who I am strongly confident will be a household name especially amongst reformed

01:19:09

Christians within the next decade. He is a Extraordinary young man who I met at the foundations conference about two years ago.

01:19:16

I just love his preaching and teaching and he's also Extremely humble what a precious brother in Christ and humble servant of Christ Reverend Armin Tomasian Andrew Quigley and Paul Washer has just been added to the roster

01:19:31

So if you'd like to attend the foundations conference in Manhattan on December 19th and 20th

01:19:37

Go to the foundations conference calm the foundations conference calm and please tell all of these

01:19:43

Folks running these conferences that you heard about them from Chris Arnz in an iron sharpens iron radio and now last but not least

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01:21:06

Now if you do not have a local church where you are a member and you're not prayerfully seeking one Seeking for one you are living in disobedience to God and if you need help,

01:21:14

I can help you find a church I've already helped people all over the world find churches near them. I have lists of biblically faithful churches everywhere

01:21:21

So, please send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put I need a church home in the subject line

01:21:27

Now we are back with our conversation with dr James R. White on the Pope the

01:21:32

Grand Imam and the joint declaration on human fraternity and Well, as they say you got to do what you got to do

01:21:45

But if you'd like to send an email do it quickly because we don't want to run out of time before your question is asked

01:21:50

Chris Arnson at gmail .com we have pastor George Jensen From the

01:21:55

First Enola Church of God in Enola, Pennsylvania What a blessing to my life this brother has been to me even though he is not a

01:22:02

Calvinist. He calls himself a plain -tea Arminian and he calls me a black coffee

01:22:08

Calvinist and and he is just a dear brother, but he says Can you ask dr.

01:22:14

White do? Do this corrupt document? I don't understand that that's a grammatical error here

01:22:21

Maybe due to this corrupt document the clergy sex abuse scandal and other corruptions we see in the

01:22:27

Roman Catholic religion Do you think Catholicism will maintain its adherence gain adherence or head towards extension?

01:22:35

Extinction that would be some Colossal event if the Roman Catholic Church exists to exist, but if you could well, it would be but I mean

01:22:45

Last time it's been a long time since I've been in Italy. I would like to get a chance to go back but Even when

01:22:52

I was there last which was well over ten years ago There were shuttered churches

01:22:57

Everywhere and my understanding is there's there's more and more so I think

01:23:03

I think Rome is in a in a crisis so much of its membership is purely cultural now and I think

01:23:14

I think the the number of people who are truly committed to its dogmatic teaching And this is true in in Western societies regards to most state churches as well

01:23:27

You know the state churches in Europe and things like that are deader than a doornail and and most of Roman Catholicism, too so The question is when a once these societies become thoroughly secular and begin to punish

01:23:40

Any type of religious sentiment things like that. What are those who have this very loose?

01:23:46

Association and connection gonna do and that's a question. Everybody has to answer themselves, but You know the the the

01:23:57

Lawlords in the late 1300s early 1400s were raising the issue of sexual abuse by Roman Catholic priests and homosexuality and So that's that's nothing new.

01:24:11

I mean that has been a century by century by century reality That I think goes directly to the nature of the unbuilt biblical priesthood that's just and and Quote unquote government churches sacralism things related to that this document

01:24:30

Most people have forgotten about it to be honest with you. Sadly. I mean we just have such a short attention span

01:24:37

I Didn't see a lot of in -depth discussion of it That doesn't surprise me

01:24:45

But one of the things that that struck me about this this document that we should get to before we

01:24:51

Run out of time. I've only read a little small amount of it is the fact other than the fact that there is no and Maybe could not be any because the nature of it

01:25:02

Reference to the Lordship of Christ over history or anything like that, which isn't a big emphasis in Roman Catholicism anyway

01:25:09

That's more of an orthodox as an orthodox biblical understanding not Eastern What's fascinating is it refers to us as Brothers and sisters and you might say well, yeah 841

01:25:23

Catholicism so on so forth but here's here's where the the disconnection sort of takes place in in the

01:25:32

Quran itself in Sura 98

01:25:39

Surah 98 Ayat Indeed they who disbelieved among the people the scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of hell abiding eternally therein they those are the worst of creatures and So you you have a specific statement here.

01:26:04

And again, we don't know One that one thing about the Quran is no one knows the exact order in which the various chapters were written

01:26:12

The order that they are in is based on size not upon chronology That's all the problems trying to read the

01:26:18

Quran just jumps all over the place next pop. But whatever the background is here you have what are called the coffers to disbelieve is to is to engage in in covering over truth and So they who disbelieved among the people of the book

01:26:41

It's literally the the Allah kitab the people of the book that can be Jews or Christians depending on the context sometimes context doesn't tell but Generally in this context a coffer is a person who is has rejected the message of Muhammad and of the

01:26:58

Quran amongst Jews and Christians and the

01:27:04

Mushrikun and the Mushrikun are those who Commit shirk shirk is the unforgivable sin.

01:27:10

It is the association of anyone or anything with Allah and so the vast majority not all but the vast majority of the world's

01:27:21

Believe that we as Christians are Mushrikun that we commit shirk by the association of Jesus With the worship of God and of course, they believe

01:27:32

Jesus just a prophet a mighty prophet of God, but he's just a prophet He was created He is not eternal.

01:27:39

He did not die on the cross. He's not rise to the dead he's a prophet, but he's not all the things that we believe that him to be and so the vast majority of Muslims believe that we are

01:27:50

Mushrikun and So we're guilty of shirk and we're Mushriks Mushrikun plural and so it says

01:27:59

They're put their abode abiding abiding eternally therein fire of hell and those are the worst of creatures and Unfortunately, I can

01:28:13

I can point you to lots of sermons from Imams in around the world where there are tensions between a

01:28:23

Muslim majority and a Christian minority and they will point to this ayah in in surah 98

01:28:31

That you know indicates this that indicates that we are the worst of all creatures if We maintain our belief the idea is well

01:28:42

Not necessarily if you haven't heard the truth of Islam then, you know

01:28:48

Maybe you wouldn't be in a bad situation but once you have Which of course if you live in a majority

01:28:54

Muslim country that sort of assumes that you do know what Islam teaches then

01:29:00

Not only are you going to abide for all of eternity in hell, but you're the worst of creation you're the worst of worst of creatures and You you combine that with the

01:29:14

Fascinating discussion in surah 3 which I do go over a little bit more in in my book and discuss this

01:29:23

But I don't know if you remember Chris a document that came out. I don't know. What was it?

01:29:29

Might be even ten years ago now That was called a common word And some liberals from Yale and places like that were involved in Putting this all together.

01:29:41

Well, that's a phrase that comes from from surah 3 and it was when some

01:29:48

Christians from Najran came and basically debated with with Muhammad and This is reflected in the text of the of the

01:29:57

Quran and beginning of verse 61 Well first verse 59 truly the likeness of Jesus in the sight of God is that of Adam He created him from dust and said to him be and he was the truth is from thy

01:30:11

Lord So do not be among the doubters and to whomsoever disputes with thee over it after the knowledge has come

01:30:17

Unto you say come let us call upon our sons and your son our women and your women

01:30:22

Ourselves and yourselves that let us pray earnestly so as to place the curse of God upon those who lie

01:30:30

This is indeed the true account. There is no God but God and truly God is the mighty the wise It's about as close as you can get to the

01:30:36

Shahada the Islamic confession there in verse 62 And if they turn away then

01:30:42

God knows well the workers of corruption say oh people the book come to a word Common between us and you that's where they took this from for some reason

01:30:50

It's a curse, but that's the thing about that. We shall worship none But God shall not associate ought with him that will not commit sure and shall not take one another as lords apart from God if they turn away say bear witness that we are submitters and of course submitters submission is

01:31:07

Islam a Muslim and so you you take what the

01:31:12

Quran actually says in The context in which it says it in the language in which it's written

01:31:19

And it makes very very strong condemnatory statements about anyone who would maintain knowledgeable their their

01:31:28

Profession of faith that Jesus Christ is truly God the flesh and and so on so forth and for me

01:31:34

The issue there is did the author of the Quran even know we believe that's why right now We're setting up a debate at the

01:31:40

East London Mosque for early May in London England Where I'll be debating that topic again

01:31:48

Which I've debated in fact that was the topic of my debate with Basam Zawadi a number of years ago

01:31:53

We're going to I and someone else would be debating that issue again because that's that's really the issue between Christians Jews that does not get discussed

01:32:02

And I'm a little bit concerned in the document That the document might be basically saying we shouldn't discuss those things

01:32:10

Because when it when it talks about the necessity of us having

01:32:16

Conversation with one another and things like that It also warns it says that dialogue among believers means coming together in the vast space of spiritual

01:32:26

Human and shared social values and from here Transmitting the highest moral virtues that religion religions aim for it also means avoiding

01:32:37

Unproductive discussions, I wonder what that means I mean yeah, there are unproductive discussions There are discussions based upon ignorant the document does say that we should learn from one another

01:32:46

Understand each other represent one each other accurately that's obviously extremely important but I wonder what these unproductive discussions are and The question would be does this document open up any opportunity even from the

01:33:02

Roman Catholic side to have meaningful debate on These things those are some of the real issues that that I had to think of because I am an individual who has done both dialogue and debate and Yet in all of those situations you cannot avoid

01:33:22

If you understand Islam, and if you represent it accurately you cannot avoid the the fact that Islam comes after Christianity historically and therefore interacts with us we are addressed in their holy book and What is said does not accurately represent what we believe so we have to deal with that that that's

01:33:41

What else are we supposed to be talking about? I mean we can we can I guess talk about? Transgenderism or Infanticide and things like that, but if we're actually going to talk with one another about What makes us what we are?

01:33:57

That's where we have to be focused upon we have to disagree on those things we have to have the freedom to be able to say

01:34:04

You're wrong about this and here's why and then here why the other side doesn't believe they're wrong and and press harder and That's certainly what we've been involved with now for Quite some time

01:34:16

Thank You pastor George Jensen. Please give me your full mailing address in Enola, Pennsylvania So that's

01:34:21

CVV BS comm can ship you out a free copy of both The Roman Catholic current controversy and what every

01:34:29

Christian needs to know about the Quran both by our guest dr. James R White and we want to thank again

01:34:34

Bethany house publishers and Baker books For their generosity in providing us with these books to those who are writing in questions today

01:34:43

We're going to our last break right now It's gonna be a lot briefer or a lot more brief than the last break

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01:41:30

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen And this is the last segment of our interview today with dr James R white of Alpha Omega ministries

01:41:37

And if you want to send in a question do so now immediately at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com

01:41:42

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. We have Gordy from Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania Who says greetings dr.

01:41:52

White from a member of the church where you were baptized Bible Baptist Church of Charlemagne's town,

01:41:57

Pennsylvania Referring more specifically to the United Nations Universal Declaration on Human Rights from 1948

01:42:05

Pope Francis recently said sound law is the essential instrument for achieving social justice and nurturing fraternal bonds between Peoples this new declaration reads like a repackaged repackaged version

01:42:22

With a contemporary spin Rome has never been guilty of a strong commitment to biblical truth

01:42:28

But rather to tradition this would explain their failure to understand and acknowledge that the gospel will divide peoples even families not bring about Solidarity what are your thoughts?

01:42:42

Well The quotation was given was it sound law that was what will bring about I didn't

01:42:51

I couldn't understand what you said there It was sort of distorted. Let me see if I could find that question because I deleted it as soon as I finished reading it

01:42:59

Well, don't worry about that well The problem with with Francis and the problem with basically everyone who is steeped in Liberation theology, especially in its

01:43:16

South South American form and that's that's what he's all about You know, they are they're very deeply politically oriented very much toward a socialist communist perspective and so they're

01:43:30

That's what's driving everybody crazy is instead of someone like You know

01:43:35

Ratzinger knew what it was what it meant to be living in a in a day like today and so he could could play the political game too, but He based most what he was saying in church tradition and documents and because I mean most people do know this but he had been the head of the of the

01:43:56

Congregation for the faith, which is the modern equivalent of modern continuation literally of the

01:44:04

Inquisition and So, I mean he was called the German Shepherd he was the the the doctrinal watchdog for Roman Catholicism and So at least you had a pretty decent idea of where he was coming from what he was saying

01:44:20

Francis just drives everybody nuts I Probably Catholic another because you you don't know you can't tell

01:44:29

He he does the political thing which allows for multiple interpretations multiple ways of taking his words and you know

01:44:39

John Paul did some of that too, but not for the same reason and So yeah, it's frustrating.

01:44:46

So that sounds like a What you'd expect out of Rome Rome's gonna say what

01:44:51

Rome wants to say and Rome doesn't have a commitment to the foundational Biblical truths that that we hold dear but the way they say it allows for the conservative

01:45:02

Roman Catholics to at least pretend like they do and that's that's what sort of I Sort of feel

01:45:08

Well, I was gonna say a part of me feel sorry for not really But I I do think about what it must be like to be some of these men that I've debated some of whom

01:45:18

I've debated many times They've got to know in their heart and soul that this

01:45:24

Pope does not believe the things that only a few years ago they were saying were absolutely divine truth and Yet they still remain committed to the system

01:45:33

There's just got to be some dark nights of the soul where they're they're sitting there thinking, you know, what what do

01:45:40

I do? Be Wonderful if they take the right direction and get out of that mess by the way, would you be willing if I could find a

01:45:49

A Unfortunately, that's the way most of my job interviews ended

01:46:15

But Yeah, if I found a worthy Catholic apologist not somebody who just wants to launch a career who's just graduated from high school

01:46:25

But I mean a really were Right, I know I know but if I found one who is willing to debate the theme is

01:46:33

Pope Francis a faithful and safe Shepherd, would you would you participate in that?

01:46:41

Well either me or somebody who's better prepared You're probably aware of the fact that I'm Working on a

01:46:50

PhD and a completely Separate area and so it would be given that I I just mentioned

01:46:58

I'm going to be going over to the UK and May and debating on Islam there.

01:47:04

I'm actually going over the week before that to the Netherlands You know that they've gotten some guys over there got in trouble for translating the national statement and making it available there

01:47:14

I'm going to be speaking with them for them in a conference and then

01:47:19

I've still got missions work in Kauai another trip back to the

01:47:26

UK Sydney Brisbane And that's just this year and I'm supposed to be full -time working on this other thing

01:47:34

So it's more of an issue of time. I mean that obviously it would be a great topic

01:47:41

It was I just would be concerned about having the time to dig through everything that I mean

01:47:47

There's plenty of plenty of resources. So maybe if I could get somebody to assist me in the collection of materials

01:47:53

I think that would be a very useful useful topic and speaking of the

01:47:59

Netherlands remember when 30 Muslims from the Netherlands flew out to New York City to hear you debate

01:48:07

One of the imams in Manhattan or in Queens at that Presbyterian Church in in Queens.

01:48:15

I do not remember that. Oh sure. I thought the why I did tell you obviously that was pretty monumental

01:48:21

But yes, and you and you in fact, I'm not sure that this person was among them but you the only person that seemed to react negatively to the debate after it was over was a

01:48:34

Very Caucasian looking Muslim who you were having a little bit of an argument with after the event was over But he looked like he was from the

01:48:42

Netherlands, but I don't know if that was one of the No, I I didn't remember that but I've never been to the

01:48:49

Netherlands and The fact that the government has indicated it's considering criminalizing promoting something like the national statement tells you that you may have

01:49:02

You know, I I want to go visit the ten boom house before they don't allow me into the Netherlands, right?

01:49:08

They basically is one of the things I'd like to do but that tells you a lot about You know, you had godly tremendously got

01:49:16

I mean, it's what a hundred and 110 years ago They wasn't a

01:49:24

Kuiper Yeah, the that was the basically in charge I mean he was the head of the government and in a hundred years you've gone to Where you would criminalize believing what

01:49:34

Christians have always believed about the nature of marriage. I mean it can happen fast. Yeah By the way,

01:49:40

I don't know if this affects the way you answered Gordy from Bible Baptist Church in Charlemontown, Pennsylvania, but I did look up his question

01:49:49

He and he does say Francis recently said sound law is the essential instrument for achieving social justice and nurturing fraternal bonds between peoples

01:50:02

Obviously we could make that statement and then would define sound laws being reflective of of God's law

01:50:08

I don't think that that's what Francis has in mind. I think Francis has a very liberal understanding of what that law would look like Well Gordy give us your full mailing address in Mechanicsburg and the

01:50:22

CVB BS comm will ship you out a free copy of both The Roman Catholic controversy and what every

01:50:29

Christian needs to know about the Quran compliments of Bethany house publishing and Baker books and also compliments of CVB BS comm who will be shipping that out to you at No charge to you or to us we have

01:50:43

Tyler in Mastic Beach, Long Island, New York and Tyler says thank you for your work in ministry.

01:50:50

Dr. White. Do you think that those who criticize evangelistic? outreach to Muslims are guilty of showing partiality as condemned in the book of James Well, I'll depend on why they condemn it my talk at g3 was pretty much aimed at those who out of fear or bigotry or bias would

01:51:18

Refuse to reach out and love to the to the Muslim people and I I do know people who have that kind of a motivation and most definitely they would be guilty of partiality and Privileging Certain groups over other groups in regards to the proclamation of the gospel

01:51:39

I thought the same thing is those people who out of ignorance or fear Do not reach out as they should that's that's not good

01:51:46

But it's not quite the same thing as the number of people that I have encountered Who just quite simply have a very clear and very obvious?

01:51:56

bias and bigotry toward the Muslim people and And for whatever reason as a as a

01:52:04

Christian, that's just simply not something that is Possible for us to defend or to act in light of and so It could the answer is it could be depending on Why they are?

01:52:19

Opposed to that kind of outreach or are they simply saying we should just send missionaries

01:52:25

It shouldn't be us. We shouldn't be the ones doing this. We should leave these people alone Or is it just simply these people have been given over these people are enemies

01:52:34

And then they start bringing up political issues or that type of thing Rather than having a truly biblical understanding of the need to communicate the gospel

01:52:45

To every person and that the Muslims need to hear the gospel because they have not heard the gospel

01:52:53

Obviously there are some who have I take that back but the vast majority of Muslims especially who live in Muslim majority countries have never heard the gospel and If you have the idea you should only proclaim the gospel somebody once then

01:53:07

I suppose you could use that as an excuse to not talk to all sorts of people but Sometimes it takes multiple people and multiple times that message to get through It's a good thing that throughout history

01:53:19

Christian missionaries didn't have that Let's see here we have

01:53:28

John and Bangor Maine who says I have tuned in late So, I'm sorry if I am repeating something that somebody else asked

01:53:37

But when it comes to these kinds of documents since the only thing that is binding upon the faithful Roman Catholic Are those things that are dogma and declared ex cathedra by a

01:53:48

Pope? Aren't these documents by and large really useless because they really don't enforce or bind the consciences of even

01:53:59

Catholics to respond According to what these documents say I am very much reminded of the joint of the joint declaration on justification between Catholics and Lutherans that came out not long ago where neither the historic biblically

01:54:18

Orthodox Lutherans nor those Catholics that were historically accurate

01:54:24

Agreed with what was written in this document anyway Yeah, well the problem of that is that you you don't have anything anymore that is being released

01:54:34

That is actually dogmatically binding You haven't had the Pope speak ex cathedra in any meaningful fashion since the definition of the bodily assumption

01:54:44

What 66 years ago? No 69 years ago

01:54:50

Bodily assumption of Mary just so our listeners understand. Right, yeah, and so if that were the case then

01:54:57

Rome really hasn't been saying anything at all It's true What was said about the statement of justification was only relevant to certain groups very narrow groups

01:55:08

But look at how it was used by by other people to promote their their perspective

01:55:15

The problem is Roman Catholicism is a is a very very broad Spectrum movement and so these types of documents are important in The sense that the current

01:55:28

Pope would utilize what is in these documents as the basis of who he assigns to Various positions.

01:55:35

I mean this Pope has created a number of Cardinals their agreement or disagreement with positions he

01:55:44

Defines therein is going to be very important as to who gets to be a cardinal and that means who gets to vote for the

01:55:50

Next Pope and yeah, you know, it's going to have that long -term impact upon the direction of of the church certainly

01:55:59

Individual Roman Catholics and especially Roman Catholic apologists can make the argument Well, you know This is not a dogmatically binding saying and and sort of go from there that also gives the lie when they're saying well

01:56:10

We can all turn to Pope to give us directions. That's what we're supposed to believe Well doesn't this give you direction as opposed to what you're supposed to believe as well

01:56:17

It all it all it demonstrates is that when I I put that book bag up on the table in 1999

01:56:25

I think in the debate in San Diego with Mitch Pacquiao and Solos Crematura Start dragging all these books out and piled them up and said

01:56:33

Does this actually clarify the gospel or has it muddied the gospel? That that was a good illustration of why

01:56:40

Solos Crematura is important and Why the denial of Solos Crematura has led to what you see within Roman Catholicism today which if you want you want the true blueprint for anarchy there it is and And that's what we're seeing in Roman Catholic schools and practice all around the world if you could in two minutes now just Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to this subject

01:57:09

Well, yeah, we're coming to the end and we didn't do a lot of reading of the document there wasn't really

01:57:14

Reason to do that. I think that The real issue is that the document does does not lay out for us that the key issues of disagreement between Islam and Christianity and encourage meaningful and Continued dialogue thereon and anything that doesn't focus upon that is going to be focusing on things that May be important.

01:57:40

Like I said, there are many things the document says about respectful disagreements and the need to understand the other side that I fully agree with I think that Down through the years.

01:57:52

I've tried to demonstrate very clearly that you need to Accurately represent the other side. You do not show respect for others

01:57:59

You don't show respect not only for their belief, but your own belief if you do not engage in meaningful study and accurate representation but the the fact that the statement really does not meaningfully present a centrality the gospel the centrality

01:58:17

Lordship of Jesus Christ even even raise those issues in regards to what

01:58:23

Islam says about those things and the denigration of Christ within the

01:58:29

Quran or anything like that and had that cryptic statement about Unproductive discussions makes me really wonder

01:58:36

What those unproductive discussions might be and if they might not be the very discussions address these very things that that really is is

01:58:44

Why Francis continues to give everybody on both sides of the Tiber River hives?

01:58:50

And will continue to do so Until his pontificate ends. It does make you wonder how his pontificate is going to end

01:59:00

Is he going to follow Ratzinger that that would do something historic like that and what's that going to lead to in the next generation and there's there's

01:59:10

One thing that is not boring these days is keeping an eye on what the world's happening in the Vatican It is it is fascinating.

01:59:17

It's historic But it's very unlike anything that's happened in the past. So we'll keep our eyes on it.

01:59:24

We'll see what happens Well, I want you to stick around on the phone for just a couple of minutes So I could give you a proper goodbye off the air

01:59:31

But I want to thank you for being our guest and in the midst of your very hectic schedule I want to thank everybody who listened

01:59:37

Especially those who took the time to write in questions and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives