Church Discipline | Rapp Report Weekly 0024 | Striving for Eternity

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:02

All right, so what is the one thing people don't want to talk about in the church? Well that's what we're going to talk about right now.

00:14

Welcome to The Wrap Report with Andrew Rapoport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications.

00:22

This is a ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian Podcast Community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

00:33

Well welcome to another edition of The Wrap Report. I hope that you have subscribed to these so you get every one of them downloaded to your podcast app.

00:41

If you want, and you say, well I don't even know what a podcast is, I just listen when I see this on social media.

00:47

You can actually go to the link and get an email sent to you every day. There's a link there to email subscribe and you'd be able to get them sent to you each day that we drop them.

00:58

I have a special guest joining me today. She is none other than Colleen Sharp from The Theology Gals.

01:06

Colleen, how are you today? Oh, I'm okay. It's been a long week and I'm glad to be here.

01:13

Thanks for asking me to join you tonight. Well you're going to maybe, maybe or maybe not enjoy this story that I have for you though before we get to our main thing.

01:23

So I went to New York today and New York's a very interesting place. The, basically they know ways of getting your money.

01:35

So I parked, I was meeting someone in the hotel, I called the hotel and they said you can park in front in the construction zone and it's free to park there on Saturday and Sunday.

01:47

Well today's Saturday so I parked there only to discover that I parked actually in a spot that said every day except Sunday you can not park there and it's construction only.

02:00

So today being Saturday meant that I paid $15 to park and when we were walking back

02:09

I went to the person who, she was actually an exchange student who lived with us for a year and now she's going to go to school in New York and I said, oh you could, you could get to see

02:20

Mrs. Rathbore's new vehicle because we had gotten our vehicle two years ago. And so she goes, oh where is it?

02:26

And I said, well it would have been right there. Something was missing, the vehicle and actually my wife said, wait there are a whole line of vehicles right behind us.

02:38

I said, yes and they're all gone. Yes they were all gone because I discovered that about 10 minutes before we had gotten there the

02:49

New York Police Department towed our vehicle. How nice of them. We were not parked in a legal spot.

02:58

We were parked in a construction zone and so they towed the vehicle. Yeah, great way to end the day so we would think.

03:08

I actually have a good story about that too. Although it throws my sister under the bus a little bit but she was a teenager at the time.

03:16

But she's not listening. Right. But she was a teenager and gotten her license and asked my parents, can

03:24

I go to the beach with my friends and, and you know, drive the car, take the car and drive to the beach.

03:31

And my parents said, no, you're not going to the beach because that was like a half an hour, 40 minutes away from where we lived and she just got her license.

03:39

And so she said, okay, I'm just going to, can I have the car to drive over to my friend's house? Okay, sure. Then that afternoon she called dad.

03:49

No, she said, she talked to my mom first and she said, dad, I have two pieces of bad news.

03:59

Okay, what's the first piece? The car got towed. What's the second piece?

04:06

We're at the beach. So it's a good life lesson though. Yeah. Yeah.

04:12

Well, yeah, we learned the life lesson. My wife said, we have to make sure that we read every sign regardless, because we were just like, oh, three hour parking.

04:20

That's cool. Because you usually don't find three hour parking in New York. The interesting thing, what they did is they put a boot on, they came to the car 45 minutes after, they could see my sticker in the window that says

04:31

I paid for three hours and I had to pay $185 for them putting a boot on the car.

04:38

And what they did is they did a summons that gave me only two hours to respond to them.

04:44

Wow. Because I came back in three hours. Well, I didn't respond in time. So I got to pay $185 for the towing too.

04:53

So it was very expensive parking. But here's the thing. Here's a life lesson that I actually got out of it. We're driving back with my wife and I back to Jersey.

05:02

And this couple, the foreign exchange student that used to live with us and her mother, because that's who we were going in to see.

05:11

The mother had said to my wife, you know, it's amazing how calm your husband is through this.

05:18

Like my husband would have been through the roof already. And we were talking on the way home and I really,

05:24

I don't know if you've had this experience or some listeners have had this experience that if you've been walking with the Lord for a very long time and you suddenly see how

05:33

God's been working in your life. Years ago, I would have been freaking out when the car was missing.

05:41

I would have been ballistic. I would have been like going crazy, call the police, try to figure out what was going on.

05:49

There was none of that. I actually literally was like, oh, the car's gone. And my wife was like, what do you mean the car's gone?

05:55

I said, it was right there. And the, you know, the girl that used to live with us and her mother are just like, well, maybe you parked it on the street.

06:03

I'm like, nope, that's exactly where I parked right there. It's gone. I said, okay, well, we'll have to go over,

06:09

I'll have to, you know, call the police, report it stolen. It was just like worrying and freaking out about it, it wasn't going to do anything.

06:17

And so I just figured, okay, I'll, you know, we'll call my sister -in -law and if we had to go back to Jersey without a car, we'll just get a ride back and call insurance and deal with it.

06:28

And it was, it was just, you know, we finally were waiting for the police because I reported it stolen and then had, you know, because look, this isn't a major thing and in New York, they're not going to come for hours.

06:40

And I said, I wonder if they towed it. So we found a website. I went on my phone, found a website where, yep, found it, it was towed.

06:46

And so I called them up to find out where to go. It was like an hour walk to get over there.

06:52

I get over there and I'm like, okay, well, you know, here's just something I got to do. I got to pay the bill.

06:58

Okay. And the lady goes, oh, your insurance card expired. I went, but wait,

07:04

I paid for it. She goes, I can't give you your car without the insurance card. Oh, so like this is one of those, anything that could go wrong too.

07:12

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. When we walked down the street, we got, but this is, we walked down the street and we get, we have to, we're like on 11th street and we have to go to 12th street and there's no way to get over there.

07:23

There's a police station in the middle and all this construction. And so I talked to a police officer, yeah, you got to go like two blocks down, cut over and then come two blocks up.

07:31

I'm like, oh, okay. So I call the insurance company while they're closed. Okay.

07:38

So I call, put it like, as if I'm putting in a claim so I can get a human being and they're like, oh, well we can't help you with that.

07:43

But she's like, maybe you can find it online. So, okay. I search online. I find my insurance card. She's like, oh yeah.

07:49

Email it to me. And the email doesn't work. She's like, oh, did you use caps? All right.

07:55

Seriously? Okay. So I type in caps. She gets the, she gets it. But then when she prints it, it cuts off the information she needs.

08:02

So she goes, this isn't going to work. And I'm like, okay, maybe I'm going home tonight without a car. And so she finally gets it, figure out how to print it.

08:11

She gets, you know, I pay the bill, walk out, she goes, you got to go to the next guy. The next guy does everything. He fills this all paperwork out, scans the receipt and it goes, hey, it's been rejected.

08:24

My wife just looks and says, at every stop something's going wrong. Wow. So he had to figure out how to do that right.

08:33

And finally we got my car and then drove home. And hey, the nice thing about leaving from the police station though, when

08:41

I put the GPS in to get to the Lincoln tunnel, I took this little side road that I never knew existed.

08:48

My wife was like, are you sure this is the way we're supposed to go? It doesn't look like this is for use for cars. My GPS is saying, and it like put us right into the

08:55

Lincoln tunnel. No traffic. I was like, cool. Or I was like, that's the first thing to go right. But you know what amazed me is through that whole thing, my wife and I were talking,

09:03

I wasn't anxious. I wasn't freaking out. I wasn't panicked like years ago

09:10

I would have. And I really think that a lot of that is the work of the Lord in my life, just over many years of me going through a lot of other type situations like that, where I have freaked out and realized, well, this didn't get me anywhere.

09:24

And just the Lord doing a chiseling work over many years and getting me to learn to trust in him.

09:32

And I really, it's just one of those things that it still blows me away that I didn't freak out at all. I just said, well, the

09:39

Lord's in control and we'll call the insurance and deal with whatever we have to deal with. Yeah. Hopefully that can be an encouragement to other people because I've seen that same thing in my life.

09:49

I think I've told this on my podcast, but when my children were younger and I would get so frustrated with them and raise my voice at them and the

09:58

Lord just really convicted me with Ephesians 4 29, let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, that it may give grace to those who hear.

10:11

And I realized, you know what? Yelling at my children is actually a type of unwholesome word because the things that I say,

10:19

I'm angry, I'm sinning in my anger, and just through a lot of repentance and prayer and relying on the

10:28

Lord, I've had that same thing where things that maybe would have really upset me years ago.

10:35

I just feel calm and just so gracious to the Lord because I know it's his sanctifying work in me.

10:43

And the thing with that is that we end up seeing both of us have had these experiences where we've done wrong in the past.

10:50

Lord has worked on us. We've grown. And today's topic that we have is something that a lot of people want to avoid.

10:56

It's the topic of church discipline. And I think a lot of people in the church, they just don't want to deal with discipline.

11:05

I know many, many pastors who their attitude seems to be, let's not deal with it until it becomes a big problem, until they have to deal with it.

11:14

When dealing with things, when they're a smaller problem is much easier to deal with, much less of a problem because when you let it get too big, sometimes feelings get hurt.

11:27

Things get kind of, people get bitter and becomes a harder thing to deal with. Much easier to resolve it when it's smaller and let the

11:36

Lord work on us. But there's, I've always found there's two type of people, people who reject discipline and maybe they reject it initially, but I'm talking about people rejected over long periods of time.

11:51

And then you have people that will submit to it. Maybe not right away. Maybe they're the ones that they rejected initially, but come back and think about it and you're like in your, what you were saying and the moment you feel, you can feel justified about it, but later it's like,

12:04

Oh, you know what, Lord, I wasn't so right. You learn from it. You grow in that.

12:10

And next time maybe it's a little bit less of that, a little bit less. I think that this is a thing that I would like to see as an encouragement to folks when we talk about church discipline, because it's something that many people don't want to talk about.

12:23

Many churches don't do. And yet the Puritans, they had three things that defined a church.

12:30

The Puritans had the proclamation of the word of God as the first thing that defined a church.

12:38

If a church wasn't proclaiming God's word, then it wasn't a church. Second was the practice of the ordinances of baptism in the

12:47

Lord's supper. If they weren't doing those things, they weren't a church. Third, and this surprises some people, was to keep the church pure by practicing church discipline.

12:58

It's about the purity of the church. And it is helpful to a sinning brother or sister.

13:05

Because if we're not disciplined from the church when we're doing wrong, if we're not disciplined by and corrected by our fellow brothers and sisters in the

13:14

Lord, then we're not going to grow. We're not going to learn. And the key text for this is

13:21

Matthew chapter 18. So what I'd like to do is spend a little bit of time kind of exegeting these verses,

13:28

Matthew 18, 15 to 20. So if you have a Bible, if you're not driving, if you're driving your car, do not do this right now.

13:35

But if you're not driving a car and you can open a Bible, open your Bible to Matthew 18 verses 15 to 20.

13:42

So you can read along and examine this, maybe highlight, maybe take notes so that you can see what the

13:48

Bible actually says about church discipline. Now if you read all of Matthew 18, which is always good to do, never read a

13:57

Bible verse. Always read the context around it. Well, never read just a pericope, a section by itself.

14:05

You want to read what's around it. And what you actually see in Matthew 18 is that the disciples were getting into an argument over who was going to be the greatest in the kingdom.

14:15

They had an issue with pride and Jesus gets into talking to them about these issues.

14:22

And he talks about pride and humility throughout this chapter. And right in the middle, he talks about what to do if a brother sins against you.

14:32

And this is the thing that we want to address. How should we deal with someone who sins against us or maybe we're the ones in sin?

14:43

Well, let's read this and I'm going to read out of the ESV, but read along with me in any translation that you have.

14:50

But this is what Matthew 18, 15 to 20 says. If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.

15:01

If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

15:19

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a

15:32

Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

15:45

Again, I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything, they ask, it shall be done for them by my

15:55

Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am among them.

16:01

Now, maybe when you read all of that context, there's a couple of verses there toward the ends. You go, wait a minute, especially verse 20.

16:08

I thought that's a prayer meeting. Well, we're going to get there and find out that that does not relate to a prayer meeting.

16:15

But I want to go through, there's actually four steps laid out here of church discipline. And I don't know if that may surprise you because many churches think there's only three.

16:26

There's actually four. So let's take a look. Verse 15. If your brother sins against you, now first right off the bat, there's a sin involved.

16:35

This is not, hey, you offended me because I didn't like something you said that was not actually a sin.

16:41

You know, or you said you liked the green carpet and I like the blue carpet and that's an offense to me. So you're in sin.

16:47

No, an actual sin, not a sin that we make up in our own mind because we just think the person is in the wrong.

16:54

This is an actual sin. Someone sins against you, what do you do? Now look at what the second half of verse 15 says.

17:02

It says, go and tell him his fault. Now notice this next part. This may blow you away, but it says between you and him alone.

17:13

You know what this verse doesn't say? It does not say, hey, go tell your best friend what so -and -so did to you. No, that's not part of this verse.

17:20

This verse doesn't say to go and tell anybody else. If somebody sins against you, then the very first thing that you are to do is to go to that person alone, not telling anyone else.

17:35

You're going to see throughout Matthew 18, when it comes to a sin issue, the goal is to keep it to as few people as possible.

17:43

Why? Well, very simply, the goal in this process is one of regaining or restoring your brother.

17:55

Your brother sins against you, you want to restore that relationship. That's what

18:02

Paul is going to argue in the book of Thessalonians. If someone sins against you, you want to restore that.

18:09

And so in that restoration is going to be easiest if nobody else knows.

18:14

So if someone sins against you, you go to that person alone. You tell that person what they did.

18:21

If they repent, if he listens to you, you have gained your brother.

18:27

That's the goal, to gain your brother. Now, if you went and told your best friend, who told his best friend and her best friend and so on and so on, and now the whole church knows that someone so sinned against you, just pretend that was you.

18:43

Pretend you sinned against someone, maybe by accident, maybe it wasn't intentional, but you did do it.

18:50

And now everyone in church knows about it. Are you more or less likely to be received and admit to what you did wrong?

19:01

Well, in our pride, unfortunately, we're typically going to want to rebel against that then, when these things happen.

19:08

And so this is why we keep it alone. You should try to keep the sin to as few people as possible, because guess what?

19:16

If your brother admits his fault, hey, I sinned against you, I was wrong, please forgive me, then guess what?

19:23

It's done. No one else needed to know about it. There's no embarrassment for that person.

19:30

There's also no one that you now have to go to and correct the record and say, well, this person has asked forgiveness.

19:38

So the first step, you go to them alone. And if your brothers repents, hey, guess what?

19:46

Restoration, you've gained your brother. No more steps needed, you're done.

19:53

Verse 16, but if he does not listen, in other words, you've gone to your brother, there's a sin issue, they don't repent, they know that they're in sin, not repenting, not going to happen.

20:08

It says, take two or three along with you, that by two or three, everything may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.

20:18

Well, this comes out of Deuteronomy chapter 19, where you would have two or three witnesses to establish something in a court case.

20:26

Now, let me explain what these two or three are, because there is a way to go about bringing two or three witnesses correctly, and there is a way to do it incorrectly.

20:36

The way to do it incorrectly is to go to these two people and say, hey, Colleen, I'd like you to come with me because so -and -so over here sinned against me, and let me tell you what he did.

20:48

He did this, that, and the other thing. So let's go over and meet with him. Colleen, what have

20:55

I just done to you in this situation? Why don't you tell me?

21:05

I'm not sure what you're getting at. So I've given you a prejudgment, right?

21:10

Oh, okay. Okay, got it. You now have an opinion that's my opinion of the situation, don't you?

21:17

Okay. Well, and sometimes I've found that it can be helpful.

21:24

I have older women in my life that I will go to for wisdom, and sometimes

21:31

I'm hurt by this situation, and I'm not sure if I should be if that person really sinned against me or I'm being just very sensitive, or in just the way that I do it, it can be helpful.

21:45

In cases where you've done that, because I've been involved in that sometimes, right? You're very cautious not to give names or information that would lead me to have any clue.

21:56

Right. It's, hey, this is a general situation. Here's what's happening. Yeah. That's a good point.

22:03

How do I go about that? So bringing someone else in in that way is different than bringing them in as a witness.

22:09

That's a good point because that's a step where it's, and we'll talk about the process we should go through, and that's a process of bringing in wise counsel.

22:18

Right. Because we do have to check our own heart. Right. And that's a good point. Instead of saying, so -and -so did this.

22:24

See, I've noticed before where you can come and say, so -and -so did this.

22:31

Wasn't that just awful? Which I think when you do it that way, it's more like, can you tell me that I'm right and they're wrong so I can feel better about myself?

22:42

Exactly. Instead of actually what you said was the goal of the confrontation is repentance and winning your brother.

22:52

And the thing is, is that if you bring a witness, here's how I do this.

22:58

When I've had to go through church discipline, both as a pastor and as a lay person,

23:04

I do not tell the person what the issue is or who the person is.

23:11

I'll say, hey, can you meet with me at this time, this place? I need a witness.

23:18

I've already gone the first step and I need a witness. And people will be like, well, what's it about? You'll get firsthand information.

23:27

And the reality of doing that is there are times when you can go to someone and be wrong.

23:33

I actually had someone that did this with me and they came to me and I didn't see that there was a sin involved.

23:41

And this person went and got two of the other people in leadership involved in it and she did it right.

23:51

She didn't tell them, she just said, can we have a meeting? Told me to be there. Okay. And the two other leaders ended up saying, you know, do you not see that you may have been in fault in this?

24:02

And she just needed to hear, see, she wasn't going to hear it from me because I was, in her mind, I was the one that was wrong.

24:07

But then hearing it from two other people, she went, oh, and she was actually in the wrong.

24:13

And guess what? That was resolved and it never went anywhere after that. And that can happen. It can happen when you think someone has sinned against you, but you're not receiving it.

24:23

And when you go to them one -on -one, because you still think they're in the wrong, you think they're being defensive and you don't hear them.

24:31

And so if you get your witnesses already on your side, then that's not what this verse is saying.

24:41

Now, there is a case where they could be eyewitnesses to the sin itself.

24:47

Well, if they're eyewitnesses, if they were present when it happened, well, then they might be good people to bring, not in saying, again, when

24:56

I've had that case where I brought people that were eyewitnesses to the event, I said, hey, can you meet with me?

25:03

Gotta go a second step of church discipline. They said, what's up? And I said, you'll find out when you're there.

25:08

Now they were eyewitnesses to the account, but guess what? I don't want to give them my side of the story and get them to prejudge the situation in any way.

25:17

And I want them to come open -minded to hear it. That's what you do with eyewitnesses.

25:23

Now, if you feel that you have to follow the second step of church discipline and you feel compelled that you must, you have to tell your witnesses what happened and who it was and why they're wrong up front, then maybe when we get to the process of this in a bit, you're going to need to really focus in on that because if you have to tell your side of the story, then it may be that you're not trusting in God to resolve this.

25:52

And that's really where we want to be with this church discipline. We want to let God resolve it. And the goal should be to restore a sinning brother or sister.

26:01

The goal should be to see them mature spiritually. And so say in this case, in verse 17, you've gone with the two or three witnesses.

26:11

If he refuses to listen to them. Okay, so went to them privately, alone, addressed the sin, they're not going to repent.

26:22

You went with two or three witnesses, they're not going to repent. Here's the missing step. Step three, it says, tell it to the church.

26:31

Why is that the missing step? People say, well, hey, I've been in church discipline. They tell it to the church when they say we're voting the person out.

26:38

No, see, that doesn't come yet. That's step four. Step three says, tell it to the church.

26:44

Because if you continue to read, it says, and if he refuses to listen to the church, what does that mean?

26:50

It means that here the church went, not just the two witnesses, not the one person, not the one person with two or three witnesses.

26:59

Now you've told the church, this brother is in sin. There were witnesses to that, to the unrepentance.

27:07

And we would like you to go and reach this person. I was in a church where they filed through this process, two women who had one who had sinned against another.

27:18

The one woman went one on one, refused to listen. The woman who was offended had brought witnesses.

27:27

Person admitted that what they did was wrong, but they weren't going to repent. And it was told to the church.

27:33

Well, you know, I had a different relationship with this woman because I took care of her daughter and we, you know, just pouring my life into into hers and her family.

27:43

I was able to speak to her differently than others. And I was able to talk to her.

27:49

And because of the relationship that we had, I was able to show her what she was doing was wrong and she needed to repent.

27:58

But you see, that's why you go to the whole church, because someone may have that relationship with another person that others may not and can communicate to them in a way that they would realize, you know,

28:09

I really need to repent. And that didn't go the fourth step. What's the fourth step?

28:14

Well, the fourth step is if the person refuses to listen to the church, then you let them be as a

28:23

Gentile or a tax collector. What does that mean? Well, remember, this is in a period before actually the church as we think of church.

28:30

This is Christ. The word church is the idea of congregation and assembly. And if you've been listening to the

28:36

Daily Episodes, you heard where we described in the Daily Episodes, a rap report, what the church is and how that word church changed over history.

28:46

But here's the thing. To a Jewish person, a Gentile is a bad thing.

28:52

You don't even enter a Gentile's home. It is something that you stay away from them because you're pretty separate from the world, separate from the

29:00

Gentiles. A tax collector is even worse. It is seen as a traitor. It's a Jewish person who is taking money from fellow

29:08

Jewish brothers to pay their enemy Rome. And so these would be the two worst people in the world, a

29:16

Gentile and a tax collector. So, you know, he's saying treat them as someone that's the scum of the earth.

29:21

Well, not really. Really, what he's trying to say is you treat them as if they're unsaved. I mean, the best way of seeing it in our day and age is if someone has gone through the steps of church discipline where you've gone to one on one, you've brought to you brought witnesses, you've gone to the church or church has now taken the responsibility of trying to keep the church pure and go after them and encourage them to repent and they're still repenting.

29:44

The church has to put them out of the church and treat them as if they're not saved.

29:49

Why? Because the fruit, the only fruit we see now is that they're fruit of unrepentance. You have to assume they're not a believer.

29:56

What should we do at that point? Well, Paul would say Thessalonians share the gospel with them.

30:02

You treat them as an unbeliever, but you share the gospel. And this is the context now that we see in verses 18 to 20 where it says, truly, truly,

30:12

I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. That is not the way that the prosperity gospel movement uses this.

30:18

I remember in college, I had a friend who told me he was going to get a brand new car. He went with me the day before.

30:24

He was trying to buy a used car. He wanted me to co -sign a loan for him. His parents wouldn't give him money.

30:30

His credit was horrible. He took me and thought that at the dealership, I would be willing to co -sign a loan.

30:37

Well, I'm sorry, Danny boy, but my mama didn't raise no fool. I am not signing a loan for someone who already has bad credit and whose parents won't give him money because he misspends money.

30:50

No. So I refused to do that. The next day, he told me he was going to get a loan. Why was he going to get a loan?

30:56

Because of Matthew 18, 18, he's whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven.

31:03

And then he read the next one, verse 19. And again, I say to you, if two or three agree on heaven about anything, it will be done for you by my father in heaven.

31:14

And he said, I got two brothers to pray that I'll get a new car. I'm getting a new car. Needless to say, he did not get a new car.

31:21

He took a verse out of context. Why is this verse here? Because no pastor wants to do church discipline.

31:31

If he does, he probably shouldn't be a pastor, but no one likes doing church. I have gone through this process.

31:38

I've gone to the to the final step. I have counseled with many pastors. I have one friend who has called me on two occasions having to do a church discipline to be like, what do

31:50

I do? Every single pastor I know, when they're at the very first step that they get involved, whether it's the first step, the second step or the third step, at whatever step they got involved, they all tell me they've lost sleep over it.

32:06

Every one of them, it is heartbreaking. It's something that most pastors want to avoid, and that's quite frankly, why so many churches do avoid it.

32:16

The reason we need this here is verses 18, 19, 20 is because we need the encouragement that what we're doing has already been done in heaven.

32:26

If we're bounding them in heaven or bounding them on earth or loosing them on earth, it's because it's already been done in heaven.

32:32

In other words, God has given us this procedure to follow and he wants us to do this.

32:37

And we need the encouragement to know God supports us as long as we did it right. And so where two or three are gathered in my name, there

32:47

I am among them, that is an encouragement to people that have to do this.

32:53

Where two or three, who are the two or three in this context? The two or three witnesses. You had the witnesses that saw the interpendence, where they gathered.

33:05

God is there with you. I know from personal experience, I needed that encouragement when

33:10

I went through it. And I know many other pastors who've had to go through this, the same thing.

33:15

They need this encouragement. And so this is what the scripture says. Now, this is a process.

33:22

Now, I will say this. Matthew chapter five says, if you know your brother has something against you, you are to leave your offering and go to them immediately.

33:35

So this is the process that we should be looking at. If someone sins against us, we go to them.

33:40

If we know that someone has an issue against us, we should not even partake of the Lord's Supper, but go to them.

33:47

When I give the instructions and the warning before the Lord's Supper, one of the things

33:53

I always say is that if you know that you have sinned against somebody, please let the elements pass and go and deal with it.

34:01

Deal with it and then worship. If you have sinned against your brother and you're aware of that, even if they haven't come to you, let the elements partake or pass.

34:14

Don't partake and go to them. I have seen actually someone get up in the middle of a

34:20

Lord's Supper and tap someone on the shoulder and walk outside and restore a relationship. No one needed to know the details, but a relationship was restored and that should be the goal of this.

34:33

So I'm going to do it after a commercial. I want to go back and forth with Colleen and discuss some of the more details that we get into the nitty gritty of dealing with some of these type of issues.

34:46

Can you answer the following questions for your children or for the person to whom you are witnessing?

34:52

Number one, is the New Testament reliable? Two, can you explain the Trinity to me?

34:57

Three, how is Jesus both God and man? And a slew of other questions you will be able to answer if you get

35:04

Andrew Rappaport's new book, What Do We Believe? It will help you a ton.

35:10

Get your copy at whatdowebelievebook .com. Whatdowebelievebook .com.

35:16

The good news is, Striving for Eternity would love to come to your church to spend two days with your folks, teaching them biblical hermeneutics.

35:26

That's right, the art and science of interpreting scripture. The bad news is somebody attending might be really upset to discover

35:33

Jeremiah 29 11 should not be their life verse. To learn more, go to strivingforeternity .org

35:40

to host a Bible interpretation made easy seminar in your area. And if you do host one of those seminars, you'll learn

35:48

Matthew 18 in context and why verses 19 and verse 20 do not say what many people think they say.

35:54

And I should say, forgive me if I just ruined your prayer meetings that verse 20 doesn't refer to a prayer meeting.

36:02

I know it is the encouragement of every pastor who has a Wednesday night prayer meeting with just two or three gathered and they go, we're two or three gathered.

36:10

Here's Jesus among us. Sorry, that's a church discipline thing. So, Colleen, you know, actually, what

36:16

I do need to get from you is I need a ad for Theology Gals podcast.

36:21

You know, I'm just saying, got to work on that. Well, I didn't know that was the first I'm hearing of it.

36:28

I think I did make one for somebody once upon a time, but I will have to do that.

36:35

And, you know, is there, there might be some news about Theology Gals coming to a community.

36:43

Yeah, you have to stay tuned to the rap report. More about that.

36:50

Got to leave them hanging a little bit. You know, as you were talking, I wanted to mention a couple of things because I would really like your perspective on this,

36:58

Andrew. And that would be because you deal with a group of gals that talk theology.

37:05

Guys are not allowed in that Facebook group at all. Right. We did have a man try to get in this week.

37:11

And it's a pastor that I love, but I don't think he realized the group initially. Then he called me and asked me,

37:18

I said, no, no, no, sorry, we can't let you in. Oh, wait, did you ban him like I got banned for trying?

37:23

No, no, we just didn't. I got an immediate ban as if I purposely tried to do it. But it was, it was accidental.

37:30

But no, I mean, dealing with a lot of ladies, dealing with theological things, these are things you have to deal with, not in a church, but you put to practice these sort of things within your group.

37:44

And it's a pretty large group, ladies. If there's any ladies listening to this, you want to talk theology, go to Theology Gals on Facebook.

37:50

But you practice some of these things in your group, don't you? Yeah. Let me tell you something, though, that we run into that really does complicate it.

37:59

And of course, you know, back when Scripture was being written, there wasn't the Internet. And usually most of the

38:06

Christians that you were spending time with were people from your church. And I do think the Internet complicates things.

38:13

You know, we can't go through that entire process. I mean, that's just the way the way it is.

38:22

Well, you mean we can't go through that process on the Internet? Right. We can't go through where it goes to the church and, you know, where someone can potentially face even being excommunicated from the church or those sort of things.

38:38

And so I do think it complicates things. It's very difficult for me because peacemaking is so important to me.

38:46

And yet I run into situations where I I really don't know what else to do.

38:51

You know, I don't know this person's church or their pastor. And and so you have situations where you you really do have to, as much as it is up to you, seek peace and and pray.

39:08

Do you have any good advice? Because I know gals in my group, this is something that we really struggle with when you kind of go through that process in so far as you can.

39:19

You know, what do you do? Well, yeah, because you bring up a very valid point with social media.

39:25

It has really muddied the waters. You have seen this, I know. But when someone disagrees with someone theologically or they say something that they don't like, there's so many different ways you see people behave on on social media.

39:38

I mean, one, I mean, people trying to take Matthew 18. It's so interesting. I don't know how many people it's like because they disagree.

39:46

It's like, who's your pastor? I want to talk to your pastor. Like immediately jumping to I'm going to call your pastor and and you and I both know people who have had their pastors called and I mean,

39:57

I have my pastor kind of the preaching pastor, my church laughs at it. I'll get people to say,

40:03

I want to talk to your pastor and I say, okay, here's his name. Here's his number. I'll forward him the full thread so he'll know the context of what you're talking about.

40:10

And he reads the stuff and he's like, really, is this person really going to call me? Like and I give them everything.

40:17

I give them both sides of the conversation so he can have it, you know, see exactly what was said.

40:24

But there's people that do that. But then I think the people that are even worse are the ones who they don't like something you say or you do.

40:33

And instead of coming to you, they go all over social media. And you'll see them often go into groups where you're not so that you can't respond to it.

40:44

Right. Yep. I've been there. And right. And they want it. They know.

40:49

Is that really now? Here's the question in that. Is that really the goal of restoring the relationship?

40:56

You know what? And there was an interesting conversation in a Facebook group and they were talking about what venting is.

41:04

And I always think of venting is I'm going to call my best friend and I'm going to I'm just going to go off on and tell her all about a situation to make myself feel better and how

41:16

I'm right. And that other person is wrong. So she can tell me how wrong that other person is and how I was absolutely in the right.

41:23

And I think that's what it is often. So it's not for the purpose of restoring somebody or making peace, because sometimes it's there's not there's not always a there's maybe just a disagreement which causes hurt feelings, maybe not a actual sin you can point to, but there's disagreements which cause hurt feelings and that sort of thing.

41:48

And so so, you know, one thing we've talked about on our podcast that when my children would get in arguments and they would say things to each other and we would go,

41:58

I would go through this little thing before you're going to talk is what you're going to say fruitful is what you're going to say wise and and ask them that.

42:09

And that's something I try to ask my own self. So asking myself even what is the purpose of me posting this?

42:15

Is it to make myself feel better? You know, and so I think even even that, because we're all tempted to do to do things like that.

42:26

Well, I think that you bring up venting. Venting, I think, is is an act of pride. It's an act of selfishness.

42:31

It is, as you said, you're trying to get someone to agree with you to make you feel better. That's what venting often is.

42:38

Gossip is used very often the same way. It's to get everyone to agree with you to make you feel better about what you may have done wrong.

42:47

And you give only your side of the story. Anyone I'm sorry, but anyone who's afraid to give both sides of a story is probably in the wrong.

42:58

Now, I'm not saying absolutely always, but if you're not willing to give both sides of a story, if you're giving half a story or you're not saying everything that you did, you're giving, you know, you're knowingly giving half of the account to deceive the person you're talking to, then that's evidence for you to recognize that you're in the wrong and you should just immediately stop, repent and go and restore the relationship with the person you just gossiped with or vented to and the person you sinned against.

43:29

You know, I mean, that's a clear way of knowing because you hide those details because you know that if you tell the whole thing, they're not going, they may not agree with you.

43:39

They may not make you feel better. They may say the other person was may not have been wrong. And that's

43:46

I mean, and we see this rampantly online, don't we? Where people will go to others, they won't come to you or they they'll come to you just to tell you you're wrong.

43:57

And then they're going to go all over the Internet, either either publicly or privately. I've had people that will they get their last shot and they say something so that I can read it and then they block me so I can't respond.

44:11

And then they start going messaging people privately and people will come to me and say, hey, so and so is saying something.

44:17

And it's like, yeah. And my reaction to that, just the way I deal with it is, yeah, you should probably tell them that they should come to me directly as scripture says and not come to you because you really shouldn't be receiving that gossip, should you?

44:33

And I've had people go, you know, you're right, I shouldn't. And they go and tell person you should go tell so and so, you know, you should go back to Andrew in that case and talk to him directly.

44:43

Because if you are not one that receives gossip, people won't come to you with gossip. I'll tell you a true account that happened when

44:50

I was pastoring, I'd just become a pastor and someone wanted to share information with me about another person.

44:55

I tried to stop. I said, stop, stop. You just ask yourself the question, do I have a need to know this?

45:02

Because if I don't have a need to know and you share something with me, I'm going to make you go to that person.

45:09

And oh, no, pastor, you need to know this, you need to know this explains the thing. And I said, well, you know what? I actually didn't need to know that.

45:15

That has nothing to do with the running of the church or the caring for the flock. That was just gossip.

45:21

And you need to go to so and so and you need to deal with it. And, you know, person just ignored it.

45:28

And a couple of weeks go by. Did you go talk to so and so? Nope. And another week goes by. Did you talk to so and so every week in church?

45:35

Did you talk to this person? No. I said, OK, I'm going to give you one more week to call that person before I tell that person to call you.

45:44

So next week, did you talk to? Nope. So I go to the other person, I said, hey, so and so has some things they need to talk to you about.

45:51

Why don't you give them a call? Calls up. And next week I go to church. Did you call?

45:57

So do you call the other person? Yeah, they said there's nothing. No issue. Oh, OK.

46:03

So I set up a meeting with the two of them without them knowing the other one was going to be there. They both show up to my office.

46:09

And I said, now with me present, would you like to share with so and so what you shared with me? And we're not leaving this office until you do.

46:18

And all of a sudden, person got really uncomfortable and had to admit to what they had been saying about the other person, not just to me, but to others.

46:27

The reality was they already knew that the person was saying things because other people shared it with them, that it was being said.

46:36

And it only when they were together that it could be reconciled and put to rest.

46:41

And they actually became better friends after that and were able to get closer. But sometimes you have to do things like that.

46:49

I'll tell you what, Colleen, that person never wanted to come to me with gossip after that.

46:54

Actually, in fact, after that incident, no one in the church wanted to come to me with gossip because they realized that has consequences when you go to Pastor Andrew with gossip because he's going to make you deal with it.

47:07

You know, I have a something I remember when a pastor I had several years ago was preaching through Matthew 18, and he he said that people in the church would come to him and say, so and so sinned against me.

47:21

And he'd say, well, Scripture tells you what you need to do. And he would take him to Matthew 18. And he said, so often the person would say, but that's not going to work in this situation.

47:32

And he would say, so what you're saying is the God of the universe who's given us his word that he neglected to consider your situation.

47:43

You know, this is this is what Scripture tells you to do. That's what you need to do. And, you know,

47:49

I understand in these online relationships that it's not always possible to go through all of of Matthew 18.

47:58

But the verse that that I think of quite often is Romans 12, 18, if possible, so far as it depends on you live peaceably with all.

48:09

And you you still need to do what you are able to based on what we know from the word of God to make peace with your brother, because I always say that Facebook isn't the church, so we can't go through a whole church discipline process.

48:27

But it is Christ who unites many of us. And so we need to consider his word in our interactions with one another.

48:34

But there there is a way to involve the church. I had an incident where there was a young lady who

48:41

I knew that she online got to know this other gentleman and that I was friends with on Facebook.

48:49

And this guy started stalking her. And she, you know, he had he knew her phone number and different things.

48:56

And she was trying to cut off all all relations with him. And he kept trying finding different ways to get a hold of her, to contact her.

49:03

And she really didn't know what to do. She was she was getting concerned. I mean, in fact, actually, the the police did get involved because things he was saying were getting her very scared for her personal safety.

49:17

And so she asked if I would get involved being someone who knew him. I had met him once and in person, but knew him online.

49:26

And I I called him up and I tried talking with him and explained how it was making her feel.

49:34

And he was convinced that he had every right to to stalk her because he felt that God wanted her to marry him.

49:44

And she was just being rebellious. And it became this thing where I'm like,

49:50

OK, how do I deal with this? He's he's not letting up. I don't want to see him get in serious trouble with the law.

49:56

But that's the route that she was heading. And so I told him, I said, look, I'm I'm going to need to call your pastor.

50:03

Now, he went to a very large church with a pastor who is very well known.

50:10

He's he's on the radio and speaks often. And I didn't know how well that was going to go, like, you know, calling this church up.

50:16

And I called him up and I explained who I was and why I was calling. And I said,

50:22

I would I would like to get the church involved in this situation because he is a member of your church.

50:29

And, you know, and the pastor basically had said to me, he said, look, I'm going to take it from here.

50:37

You're right. This is a church issue. If there's something going on with someone in our church, we need to keep the church pure and I'll keep you informed.

50:45

And if I if we need help, you know, we'll reach out to you. But, you know, one to contact information, reach out to the young lady.

50:52

And they did. And what they ended up discovering is she was not alone. He was doing this to many women and they told him he had to immediately stop stalking these women online and the way he was treating them and and talking with them.

51:10

And he basically was telling them, no. So they actually went through the steps of church discipline and put him out of the church.

51:16

And they had contacted me when when it was final and sent me an email and said, you know, just wanted to let you know, unfortunately, he was unrepentant and we had to put him out of the church.

51:27

And what they actually did, he went to another church that they had found out about and he was trying to become a member.

51:33

And they contacted the church and said, look, we need to let you know that we we had to discipline him out of the church for this reason.

51:41

And, you know, you should be aware of this. Now, that's not trying to notice the difference, though.

51:48

They're not trying to harm him. They're trying to protect that next church. And that's the thing,

51:55

I had a pastor contact me because we had someone who was on our evangelism team and he was charged in the church of molesting a girl.

52:06

And they wanted us to know because they had to discipline him out of the church and he he was still evangelizing with us.

52:13

And they said, no, we can't you can't go out evangelizing and in the name of Christ when you haven't repented.

52:20

And so they notified us and we had to say, we're sorry, you can't be on our team if you're not in a good standing with your church.

52:27

And so there is a process, I think, to follow. And we have a process of reconciliation card that you can get at the

52:35

Striving for Eternity store at strivingforeternity .org. I jokingly say, Colleen, that this is my rules for Facebook.

52:43

And you know, this is not a bad idea. I've actually posted I've actually posted a couple of times.

52:51

A picture of both sides of that card in my group. Oh, you're not supposed to do that.

52:56

Then people don't buy the nice laminated card we make. But no, seriously,

53:02

I mean, it is helpful for folks. I'm joking, but it's but it's a thing where, you know, when you have an issue, there's there's three questions

53:10

I encourage people to ask. You think someone sinned against you? First thing to do is ask, is it a preference issue?

53:16

I mean, it's an issue of Christian liberty, you know, they don't listen to music that you think is appropriate.

53:25

You know, let me tell you, I had the the episode that we just did with with Les Lanphier and, you know,

53:33

Les has got a reputation and with, you know, so and we discussed our differences on the podcast.

53:39

He he's in a group that that openly talks about their alcohol. That's an area of Christian liberty,

53:46

I think. I don't think it's a sin to drink. I just would argue my argument with that would be, why would you need to publicly discuss that even if you

53:56

I mean, there's there was a reason for alcohol in the first century, which was because of dysentery.

54:01

We can get into things like that. But, you know, the reality is this is something I think is a

54:06

Christian liberty if he's not being abusive with it. I don't think it's wise to publicly, even if you hold that position to be public about it, because I think it can cause people to stumble.

54:17

And but the thing is, I had someone contact me, a couple of people actually, and tell me how, you know, how dare

54:23

I do an episode with him on something like worship when he's unsaved. And it's like, well, how's he unsaved?

54:30

Because he does this. He talks about his his his worldliness. And it's like you see how someone is taking something that's a preference issue and now made it an issue of salvation and now holding it against me.

54:45

And if it's a preference issue, what do we do with it? I would say we have to forbear and we need to pray, as it says in Ephesians 4, too.

54:53

I mean, we need to to, as you said in Romans, I mean, we need to as best we can get along with people.

55:01

And there's going to be things that rub us the wrong way. And if it's a preference issue, they're just doing something that's not a clear sin.

55:09

And sometimes we make things a sin that are not a sin. And so we have to recognize the difference between a preference and a sin.

55:17

OK, so maybe it's not a preference issue. Well, then the next question we should ask is, am

55:22

I in sin? Notice before you ask if they're in sin, ask whether I'm in sin before I go to the person.

55:29

Why? You know, because there could be a case where I have a grudge I'm holding. I'm unrepentant about something they did or or maybe there's something that I'm keeping a record of wrongs or I'm being bitter.

55:39

I'm being jealous. I'm wrongfully judging. I could be prideful about it. I could have some selfish ambition.

55:45

There could be some other sin in my life. What should I do if the sin is if I sit and I think through this and the sin is actually mine?

55:54

Well, the question now is, do I need to go to another the other person? You know, maybe that person doesn't even know.

56:01

And, you know, there was a thing that I had, I had a hard feeling that I was holding against Les for something someone else had said.

56:10

And, you know, I had contacted Les. I said, look, I'd like to have you talk about the movie you're doing on worship. But before you do,

56:15

I need to ask your forgiveness of something that you don't even know anything about. And he was like, really?

56:21

Why? And so I told him, I said, look, I've been holding this, you know, I've kind of kept you at arm's length because of these things

56:27

I heard about you. And I didn't know it firsthand. And so it affected the way I would treat you.

56:33

Like when I saw you at G3 and I need to ask your forgiveness. Now, you don't always have to go to a person. But in that case,

56:39

I needed to because it was going to affect the way we would we would work together on a podcast where I'm interviewing him.

56:45

And so there may be a case you have to go, but there may be a case where you don't. And look, if you don't need to go to the person, then you repent, you ask forgiveness and you move on and be more mindful of the fact that you have some views.

56:58

But what if it is a sin? Do we immediately go to Matthew 18? I would say no. I'd first ask the question, is it petty?

57:05

Because if it's petty, well, then treat it like a preference thing. And maybe you could just forbear it and and just pray about it.

57:12

But maybe it's not petty. You know, can you unilaterally forgive and not have to go to them?

57:18

If you can, again, forbear and pray. If it's not, if it's something, you know, there's some questions you should ask before going to Matthew 18, like, has an offense, has a serious offense been committed against another?

57:33

So is it a sign of seriousness? Will ignoring the offense hurt the church? Notice it's about the church, not you.

57:41

Is there a doctrinal issue? Is there moral failure? Is it habitual? Will it break a relationship?

57:49

You know, if the answer to those are no, then maybe, again, you pray and forbear. But if the answer is yes, that's where you start to look at the

57:56

Matthew 18 process. But even before you get to the first step, I would say what you need to do is ask whether your motives are right.

58:03

If your motives aren't right, then you need to wait until your motives are right before you can go. Then is it the right place in the right time?

58:10

You know, there are a lot of people that go, OK, I need to talk to someone. And they bring it up at a point where it wasn't appropriate.

58:16

And now they make the situation worse. So wait for the right time. If we're going to be dependent on God, we can wait upon the

58:23

Lord in these areas. And if we don't, if we can't display a self -control in this and love and a passion for that person to be reconciled, then maybe we shouldn't go.

58:36

And this is the thing we have to evaluate these things. It's not clear. You know,

58:42

Colleen, one of the things that people often ask is, well, how long of a process do I give? In the case that I gave earlier with these two people in my church,

58:50

I gave that several months because the issue wasn't one that was going to be really harmful to the individuals or the church directly that needed to be dealt with addressed in a very quick manner.

59:04

But, you know, Paul in 1 Corinthians 5, where it was something where a man was sleeping with his father's wife and it was known by those outside the church, that was bringing an offense to the church.

59:19

That was ruining the name of the church because they weren't doing anything about it. And Paul was like, you know, you turn him over to Satan for destruction right now.

59:27

Like you shouldn't be waiting. So there are times where you have to be quicker on those steps because it's going to have a greater effect on individuals or even worse to the church, to the name of Christ.

59:39

And so this is a thing where I think it's not always clear how much time you give. But it is something that we have to use a lot of wisdom.

59:47

But really, I think a lot of this is depending on the Lord. We need to be humble going through a process like this.

59:55

I think you've probably seen this, Colleen, where you bring something to somebody and you know, immediately they want to throw something back in your face.

01:00:05

Yeah. And actually, there is a few things I was thinking as you were talking, Andrew, when you were talking about those questions to ask yourself, because I remember early in marriage when—and

01:00:17

I tended to be pretty sensitive—and I remember like, did my husband really sin against me or am

01:00:23

I just annoyed or just being too sensitive about this?

01:00:29

Did he really sin against me? And I think that that's important because you and I have both had situations where someone comes and says, so -and -so said such and such about you.

01:00:39

And did they really say that? You know, and you talked about if somebody comes and says something, then you need to tell them you need to go to that person then.

01:00:48

And so do you have the right information even? You know, it's easy sometimes to assume things or assume motive.

01:00:56

And then the other thing I was thinking of, because I've gone through the Peacemakers book, and you talked about looking for the right situation.

01:01:02

It's one thing they talk about in there is, if possible, do it face to face, because seeing somebody's facial expressions and sometimes that can soften the mood.

01:01:13

If that's not possible, the phone is even preferable to writing a letter, because when you write a letter, you know, tone can be assumed and things like that.

01:01:23

And so just, I think, using wisdom at all points. But you're absolutely right. I remember when a friend came to me to confront me about something and right away, or even if my husband does, right away, you want to turn around and go, oh, really?

01:01:38

But you did this. Or, you know, that's the temptation instead of being humble and listening and asking yourself, did

01:01:49

I sin in this situation? And when someone does that, someone turns and throws something back at you, you know, the good way of dealing with this is to say, you know what, you may be right, but let's deal with this issue first and then we'll deal with that one, because you may have a good point there, but let's address this one first and then make sure you do deal with that other one, because you know what, they may have a valid point.

01:02:15

And so you got to deal with, you know, you should deal with it, but address the first thing first, then address the second.

01:02:22

And let me also say this. I am a firm believer that at whatever level your sin is known is the same level that your repentance should be known.

01:02:33

In other words, if you sin, I've done this where someone does something wrong and I go and I've told someone else that so -and -so did something wrong and that person and I end up talking and they end up asking forgiveness.

01:02:53

And now I realize I've accepted their forgiveness, but I now have to go back to that person and correct it.

01:03:01

And that's because that's the level that I took it so that the level that I sin, I brought it up a notch because I didn't keep it alone.

01:03:08

I went to another person. I had to go to the other person. And then I had to tell the person, if you shared it with anybody, you're going to need to let them know that I was wrong in this or they repented or things like that.

01:03:20

And you've seen this with me online. If I sin publicly online, I do something wrong, you know, and say something wrong on Facebook, I correct it.

01:03:29

You know, I will, you know, I'll say, you know, recently, right,

01:03:34

I, you know, we had a podcast, we recorded, I dropped it early. I didn't think a big deal because we were going to release it early.

01:03:42

It was earlier than expected. And I just didn't want to admit that I made a mistake. So I just, okay, no big deal.

01:03:48

I'll go and start promoting it. And everyone's like, whoa, hey, hey, hey, you're jumping the gun. And what, you know, there were things

01:03:55

I didn't know that some people didn't want to release that when we originally, when it was originally discussed. And so it was like, oh, okay, hey,

01:04:02

I'll put it off. But you know what, the right thing for me to have done initially would have just been, hey,

01:04:07

I released it early. Let me take it down. But, you know, my pride, I didn't want to do that. I just,

01:04:12

I didn't want to admit that I made a mistake and I made it worse. So what I have to do, well, I did take it down, but now

01:04:18

I had to admit that, you know, I should have just taken it down. It wouldn't have been a big deal.

01:04:24

And I could have said, you know, I made a mistake, guys, sorry. And instead I just, you know, I'm like, well,

01:04:29

I don't want to admit fault because I mean, we do that. So I had to then publicly say, hey,

01:04:35

I made a mistake, you know, I should have just taken it down. And instead I just didn't think a big deal.

01:04:41

And, you know, and so if I do something in public, I think that I need to ask forgiveness in public.

01:04:48

I remember an individual, he and I were, had a public disagreement that escalated and it ended up being where I just said, call me, you know, my number, let's talk.

01:05:00

We eventually talked on the phone and reconciled and there were areas both of us realized we were both wrong.

01:05:06

And so I went back to that same thread and publicly stated, I was wrong for this reason, this reason, this reason,

01:05:14

I'm asking so -and -so's forgiveness publicly because I sinned publicly.

01:05:19

Now, notice I didn't say, and he admitted to doing this, this and this wrong. You know what?

01:05:24

That person never, he just said, you're forgiven. That was it. He didn't go and publicly say he was wrong for the reasons that he told me on the phone.

01:05:35

But that's okay, right? I mean, should he have done that? Yes, I would say he should. If I then tried to demand it, or if I then said, well, he had, you know, just for the record, well, then that would have been me trying to still protect my own self.

01:05:49

And what we need to do in church discipline, I think, is rely on God to protect us. Follow the process.

01:05:55

And that's why I love what you said that pastor was saying, because that's really what it comes down to. You know, is God capable?

01:06:00

Does God have the knowledge? Does he maybe know just a little bit more than us to say, this is the process to follow?

01:06:06

And if you follow this process, by the way, I'm going to give you this assurance for two or three gathered. There I am. I'm bound on earth, bound on heaven type of thing.

01:06:14

You know, did he really know what he was talking about? Or are there situations where God just wasn't smart enough or didn't know what could be happening?

01:06:27

Right. I mean, and the Lord has given us a framework to follow when we have these situations.

01:06:35

So any other points on church discipline that you think we need to make or just on the process of reconciliation?

01:06:44

You know, I just, I pulled up a couple different verses because I really think this part of what we're talking about is peacemaking.

01:06:51

And one thing I always tell gals that come to me is the reason why you do this is for is a love for God and love for that person because you want them to come to repentance.

01:07:06

The purpose of this, like Andrew said in the beginning, is to win your brother is so that they come to repentance.

01:07:13

This is one of the ways that the Lord works. This is one of the tools he uses. And so going to somebody,

01:07:21

I think that's really important, too. If you're not at the point where you're going out of love, then you might need to wait.

01:07:27

When Andrew was talking about time frame, if you're going because, you know, you find joy in bringing their sin to them and in a way that is wrong, then you need to probably stop and pray for a while before you do that.

01:07:45

But I think just remembering that this is what the Lord has told us to do. This is obedience to God that we go to somebody.

01:07:54

And then just a couple of verses because I think of peacemaking and I recommend Andrew's little card at you can go to strivingforeternity .org

01:08:01

to the store and find it's just a few dollars. You can even order a couple or if you're a pastor, it's a great thing to have on the table at church.

01:08:11

You know, actually, let me butt in on that for one thing. I'll tell you something that we do at the ministry. We have had pastors, we've had churches, we get orders sometimes 20 at a time, 40, 60.

01:08:22

We as a ministry, when we get large orders of these cards, we start praying. We don't know the situation, but typically when we have a church that's ordering, you know, large numbers of them, it's usually kind of too late.

01:08:35

It's usually because something's been going on and we start praying for that church because it is something that where we have seen that.

01:08:42

So sorry for butting in. Yeah, no, I and that I think is actually a great idea. I love when churches have, you know, the little table, even, you know, if it's something your church has in the budget, it's something great to have where people can can grab it after church because if they're in a situation, they may be looking for something.

01:08:59

And a church that we were at went through the Peacemaker series, which I really appreciated.

01:09:05

They have the, I think, peacemakers and peacemaking families who went through. And then I taught peacemaking women.

01:09:13

And and the couple of verses just that I wanted to read is there's there's a whole slew of verses that talk about about peacemaking.

01:09:23

But Matthew 5, 9, blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

01:09:29

And Hebrews 12, 14, strive for peace with everyone and for the holiness without which no one will see the

01:09:36

Lord. I mean, if you all you have to do is Google verses on peacemaking, you're going to find a ton of them.

01:09:42

I think this is part of that. And I will say this also with the cards, if people want to buy them in bulk, just call a ministry at 707 -83 -MERCY or email us at info at strivingforeturning .org

01:09:58

and we'll get you a discounted rate for a large for larger orders. But let me give you a key verse,

01:10:05

I think, to sum up church discipline. And it's 2 Thessalonians 3, verses 14 and 15.

01:10:12

Paul writes this, if anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person and have nothing to do with him that he may be ashamed.

01:10:27

Do not regard him as an enemy. But warn him as a brother.

01:10:35

I mean, the thing he's saying there is, you know, if you have to put someone out of the church, even go that far.

01:10:41

We should still be loving them. Now, you know, you shouldn't treat them as an enemy.

01:10:47

I think here he's not saying treat him as a brother in Christ because he's saying to put him out of the church, have nothing to do with them and that they would be ashamed of their behavior.

01:10:57

But I think this is more being a brother, like a Jewish brother, like someone who is a fellow brother in that way of having that close relation that you your family member type of thing.

01:11:08

And so in that case, you don't treat him like an enemy. You treat him like a family member that you want to restore. And that should be the goal.

01:11:15

I mean, if that's the one thing I want folks to know when it comes to church discipline, the goal should be restoration to winning a brother back from sin.

01:11:25

And so with that, I think we'll we'll play a game after a commercial. And I think

01:11:30

Colleen knows the game we will play. Looking for strategies that will help you engage in meaningful conversations with members of the

01:11:37

Mormon Church? Well, if so, take a look at Sharing the Good News with Mormons, a new book produced by Harvest House Publishers and edited by Mormonism Research Ministries' Eric Johnson and Sean McDowell.

01:11:48

Sharing the Good News with Mormons includes 24 helpful essays from two dozen Christian apologists, scholars and pastors.

01:11:56

Pick up your copy at the Utah Lighthouse Bookstore or order directly from mrm .org.

01:12:02

And you can also get that book at strivingforeturning .org. I was one of the 24 authors that contributed to that with along with Sean McDowell.

01:12:11

Josh McDowell wrote the foreword. Eric Johnson and Sean did the editing.

01:12:16

It's a great book. Great for folks not just to evangelize Mormons, got a lot of great things to evangelize anyone.

01:12:23

There's a number of ones that are helpful for evangelizing against atheism because many Mormons that come out of the

01:12:29

Mormon Church go into atheism. And so good book to get. And so, Colleen, we shall play a game.

01:12:36

And I'm tempted, tempted to play a clip that I have about you and Angela, I think it was, that we're making fun of this game.

01:12:45

But I'll refrain from that. Well, now that you mentioned the clip, I think you have to play it.

01:12:51

Oh, all right. Well, hey, folks, you heard she's she's making me do it. So this is from your podcast and you guys talking about our spiritual transition game.

01:13:01

It's funny you're talking about some people are better at it than others. It made me think of, you know,

01:13:07

I listened to your episode with Andrew Rappaport a few weeks ago, and I loved that he had a game where you could bring up any subject and he's supposed to be able to bring it back to the gospel and share the gospel.

01:13:20

And that was a really cool little game there, you know, just for practice.

01:13:26

If you want to sort of build your chops and being able to just drop the gospel on somebody. But that's not everybody's style, you know, and, you know, we have now said it several times now, but, you know, moms at home where who you're encountering day by day is your kids, you can work it into what's what's going on in your life.

01:13:47

And so that's a cool little skill to develop. But you don't have to awkwardly force it into every single conversation that you have with a stranger.

01:13:56

So. Right, right. You're at the grocery store and you're in the checkout line and you pull out the

01:14:05

National Enquirer and say, this is an example of total depravity.

01:14:10

And then you go from there. Yes. Yes. Oh, I see that you're buying bread there.

01:14:16

Yes. Did you know Jesus is the bread of life? There you go. There you go.

01:14:21

Boy, we could really we could actually literally make that into a game. Right. Somebody called

01:14:27

John Chris. I feel like we're. I was just thinking that I feel like we're going to give him a run for his money here.

01:14:34

OK, so so for the record. Yes, I think you can do that with everything. You know, the bread of life, maybe maybe that was a stretch.

01:14:41

I'm just saying. But the whole goal of it is to not make it awkward, is to get good enough that you can do that transition without making it an awkward one.

01:14:50

So I'm just saying just. Well, and and for the record, I'm just going to say right here and Andrew knows this and he's still waiting on me.

01:14:58

But I think it may finally happen this week. We have a little surprise for Andrew that's going to go along with his game.

01:15:06

And so be looking on Theology Gals, Twitter and Facebook, and I'm sure

01:15:11

Andrew will share it on his social media also when we get it up. Oh, so it's not just going to be in the group just for ladies.

01:15:19

So no, no. See the page. Anybody can come and like our page, even if it's a man.

01:15:27

So well, let's play that. Let's play the intro and then I'll explain the game. It's time now to start the.

01:15:37

Spiritual transition game. OK, and so the purpose of this game is so that we don't awkwardly.

01:15:46

Angela. Oh, I'm going to get I don't know what it is the two of you have planned.

01:15:53

I know you said you had something planned. I'm probably getting myself in deeper trouble with this. No, this actually

01:15:59

I think you're going to love it. It's not it's not really. Yeah, I think you'll love it.

01:16:05

Yeah, that's what you say now, but you know, the goal of this is so that seriously, we don't get into awkward transitions and trying to figure out how do we make this conversation that we're having into the gospel?

01:16:17

But it's one to try to make it where it becomes very natural. And the hardest thing for people in sharing the gospel is to get the conversation to the spiritual.

01:16:28

Now, if you're handing out a gospel tract and people say, what is it? Well, this is a gospel tract and it has the good news of Jesus Christ. Well, guess what?

01:16:33

You just got there. Or it asks you a question. Do you know where you'd spend eternity or what would happen after you die? Well, OK, you just got there.

01:16:40

So in cases like that, you know, it's kind of easy. But when you're having a conversation, there are times where how do

01:16:47

I get to that point? And that's the purpose of this game. The more you play it, the easier it gets to transition from the natural to spiritual.

01:16:56

So the way that we play this is Colleen is going to ask is going to give me something and I'm going to have to transition from whatever she gives me to the gospel.

01:17:04

And hopefully I make it sound very natural, not awkward. It's not like, oh, look,

01:17:10

National Enquirer. And that is kind of pretty close to saying the total depravity of men. But you don't just jump there.

01:17:17

You transition there smoothly. I'm going to stump you this time, I think. Not more than Matt Slick did.

01:17:25

You heard that. Yeah, I did. I did hear the Matt Slick. OK, so because this is what's on my mind,

01:17:31

I do not prepare beforehand for this. I totally forgot about this, but this is what's on my mind.

01:17:37

I actually have a business that with a friend and we make and sell jewelry.

01:17:44

So jewelry is your is your topic. Jewelry. Well, actually, and jewelry is actually a one that you want to know how to transition to because people wear jewelry.

01:17:55

Right. And depending on the jewelry, you can ask, hey, that's really interesting piece of jewelry and try to get some that, you know, sometimes they will give you something that helps you.

01:18:07

But, you know, here's the thing interesting about jewelry that I did not realize my aunt makes her own jewelry.

01:18:13

And as she has gotten older, it has become more difficult because jewelry takes a very, very fine hand to be able to put the gems on just right and be able to.

01:18:27

And it's a very fine detail that you need. When you start losing some of that motor skill. It becomes really difficult.

01:18:35

And I watched her struggle as she was trying to put together a bracelet that she was making, and it is something where I couldn't help.

01:18:46

There was no it doesn't matter that I have better motor skills than her because of the effects of age and a disease.

01:18:54

It didn't matter that I had better motor skill. I would not have the ability, the precision that she had, even though her hands would shake and she lost mobility and things like that.

01:19:08

She still, because of years of expertise, had a better hand at doing it than I would have, even though I didn't have the disease and health issues she has.

01:19:20

And it's a thing where the reality is it really didn't matter my health.

01:19:27

It mattered what she knew. She knew something from doing it for years that I did not.

01:19:35

And the reality is, is when we think about things in life, there are things where we could say, well, it's it's it's who, you know, not what, you know, type of thing.

01:19:45

And there are times where that's true. But there's times where it's the reality is you have to know the right things.

01:19:52

It doesn't matter if you're a really good person in all these other ways, because there's things where we could think we're really good in some ways, but there's things we can't possibly do.

01:20:06

I'll give you a for instance. The for instance would be this. You and I would both be people that would think that we're really good people, but not only when we compare ourselves to other people.

01:20:18

If you and I were to compare ourselves to someone who's absolutely perfect, in fact, infinitely perfect, then all of a sudden we would not compare so well.

01:20:27

And in fact, that's actually going to happen to each of us. We're going to be compared to an infinitely holy, just God.

01:20:33

And you and I are both failed by that standard. It doesn't matter that we think we're good compared to each other.

01:20:39

You could be far more moral than me. But guess what? It is everything about what I know.

01:20:45

I know the truth of how to be reconciled with God, how to be right with God, and that God came to earth and died on a cross, paid the fine that I owe.

01:20:56

Because of that, I could be set free because I repent and receive what he's done.

01:21:02

I stop trusting myself as a good person or my good works. I trust Jesus Christ and what he did alone on that cross. And it's not about my goodness compared to other people.

01:21:11

It's about being in a right state with him. So I guess in that sense, it is about who you know, not what you know, too.

01:21:19

That's how I would transition from jewelry to the gospel. I think that's great, especially how you brought your aunt and her story.

01:21:28

And I think that's actually another good thing to remember when you're talking to somebody is if you have a personal story that you can bring into it.

01:21:38

I think, you know, that can be helpful. As you were talking, I was thinking of my grandmother who had a brain tumor in her fifties, and she would make these beautiful crocheted tablecloths with the little tiny thread and needles.

01:21:52

And, you know, she lost a lot of the use of her left side, and she was so determined to do that.

01:21:58

It was a bigger struggle. But also, I think even in those struggles, as we struggle, we have hope that one day we no longer will suffer.

01:22:09

We no longer will have the effects of age on our bodies.

01:22:16

And although everyone has that hope that for an afterlife where they won't have that, many people don't think about the fact that that afterlife doesn't always end in heaven.

01:22:26

We're not universalists. There's a God who is just and they're going to be judged. And that's, you know, we play the game, you know, to improve on that and improve on how to make the transition.

01:22:39

Because, you know, notice how I ended up doing it. This is the thing to remember. I don't call people a sinner without calling myself one.

01:22:46

I don't talk about how they violate God's law without saying how I have violated it. And I often tell people, you may be far more moral than me because I don't want to put myself above them.

01:22:57

You know what? They may be more moral than me. I'm a pretty wicked person, you know, but it's not my morality that gets me right with God.

01:23:04

It's not your morality that gets right with God. It's what God did. Right. It's Jesus Christ and his perfect sacrifice.

01:23:12

And it's that's where that's our hope for eternal life is because of his life and death and resurrection.

01:23:20

And so, folks, we'll close out. I encourage you guys or I should say gals to go download and subscribe to Theology Gals and listen to their episodes every week.

01:23:31

You can subscribe to The Wrap Report so you get that one every week. And I do encourage you to get our newsletter.

01:23:40

New newsletter is going to be coming out soon. We will give you some updates of some speaking events.

01:23:45

I will be in San Francisco area. I will put Dr. Silvestro and I actually be in San Francisco area.

01:23:52

I will then next week. This all starts in September. I'll be up in Washington state, have a couple of events in New Jersey, one in New York, and then mid -October,

01:24:02

I will be in San Point area, Idaho, northern

01:24:08

Idaho. And so be looking. I'll give you a heads up. Just be looking on Twitter.

01:24:14

There may be a chance that Mr. Justin Peters will get me back for my campaign.

01:24:20

What campaign? Well, it's a hashtag Justin, I win campaign. How do you participate? Well, here's how you could participate.

01:24:27

You guys could go to JustinPeters .org. Donate to him and just in the comments, put hashtag

01:24:33

I win. He knows what that means. It's a battle we're having. He thinks he can out bless me.

01:24:38

But I think with all of your help, we can prove that we can out bless Justin Peters. So if he's been any kind of encouragement to you at all,

01:24:47

I encourage you to go out there and donate to JustinPeters .org and put hashtag

01:24:53

Justin I win. It infuriates him and it's great. No, he doesn't really get infuriated for gifts, but he gets infuriated with me because he sees the hashtag

01:25:00

Justin I win and realizes we're out giving him. Just saying. So keep up the good work. But you can also donate.

01:25:07

Go to our Patreon page. The link is in the show notes. And what reason I'm going to I'm trying to encourage you guys is we have an opportunity to get the rap report on a syndicated radio.

01:25:20

We have a radio station that's very interested in it, but they need help financially to be able to get it syndicated on over 250 stations.

01:25:29

And so we're trying to do that, but we need your help. Any amount would be great.

01:25:35

And so if you would consider going to the Patreon page and donating as much as you think appropriate for you, we would greatly appreciate it.

01:25:46

Also, let you know if you want to go out to the theology gals, especially for the women. They have some new gear out.

01:25:53

Some T -shirts and actually a number of T -shirts. And so you could check out their gear. They have a patron as well.

01:26:00

If you start listening to their podcast and go, hey, this is really good stuff. We want to help them out. Now, here's the best thing you could do for both of the podcasts.

01:26:10

Go to iTunes and Google Play and wherever you listen and find a place where you can write a review.

01:26:17

I like to go out to the iTunes and read those and it encourages me. Why? Well, very simply.

01:26:23

You know, we do these podcasts and we don't get to get the feedback all the time. You can email us at info at striving for eternity dot org and tell us what you think.

01:26:34

Why? Because I'm talking to a microphone. I don't know how this impacts you in your life.

01:26:41

And the reviews really help with that. Now, I know all the podcasters always say, write a review because it helps us to get better rated.

01:26:49

Actually, no, it doesn't. It doesn't do anything like that, but it is something that it is encouraging to us as podcasters to read the reviews and know that folks are gaining information and enjoying from this because that's how we're going to hear the feedback.

01:27:08

So send us feedback, you know, just to let you know. Here's a feedback that we got from Chapa 520 or 512.

01:27:17

They said they said refreshing was their description and their review is five stars.

01:27:23

I love the humor and flow of the show. Most importantly, the emphasis on proper interpretation and importance of the issues of today and addressing the culture with the gospel.

01:27:37

Thanks. Keep it up. That encourages me greatly. Why? Because I sometimes don't know that that's how you guys feel.

01:27:44

And so it is greatly important. You know, this podcast is literally going around the world.

01:27:52

In fact, the podcast is listened to in thirty nine countries, thirty nine countries around the world.

01:28:01

Listen to the podcast. That blows my mind. Almost all of the 50 states we're being heard.

01:28:11

And so if you want to encourage us and this goes the same for Theology Gals, go write a review, contact us, let us know how this is impacting you and helping you.

01:28:22

Because sometimes, you know what? We have down days, just don't feel like doing podcasts.

01:28:28

And that's why we keep doing is because we get to hear how it's having an impact in your life. So, Colleen, thanks for joining me this week.

01:28:36

I really appreciate your insights and just you're giving me a hard time.

01:28:46

But this is a lot of fun, a lot of great information in this podcast. I hope it is an encouragement to the listeners.

01:28:54

And folks, if it was an encouragement to you, share it, share with others, you know, let others know because not just that they know about this podcast, but that say they get the information that we hope that they would end up seeing or getting for themselves.