Dividing Line from Edwards, Colorado

The Marriage Debate and the New Video Campaign

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now, it's 602 -973 -4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic here is James White.

And welcome to the dividing line coming to. You live from evergreen, Colorado today. We have a much stronger internet connection. So hopefully you won't have too much max headroom type stuff taking place.

Actually, when did Mac when was that on. Max headroom was a long 80 that was a long time ago. A lot of a lot of our young folks. We have a lot of young listeners probably have no earthly idea what max headroom is and therefore that particular illustrations probably not as good As it as it used to be.

But anyway, eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number. If you would like to call in we'll take some calls at the beginning of the hour if We have callers. Otherwise, we'll be going into a further response to Sammy's Autodesk.

So you sort of have your shot at the beginning of the program and One of the topics might well be the fact that I was sort of talked into today. Watching the chat channel, especially when I travel is somewhat of a distracting thing.

There's some interesting new folks in the channel today that are making interesting comments. But anyways I was talked into going ahead and posting today rather than waiting for Monday the new video that Ivy Connolly and crown rights have put together.

This is a collaborative effort. You all were so generous. When was when when did we do the second video that we did?

I.

Remember exactly when it was but we sort of opened up a PayPal donation link and Even after we reached our goal more came in and so we used that to do a third video and I knew months ago exactly what I wanted to do that video on and so I took the time to to put together again what we've done in the past is is I put together Sort of a stream of consciousness type thing.

I I do my best to write out the the primary areas of Emphasis that we want to touch upon and then I put this all together. I send it to Ivy and then he of course turns it into I guess it's called spoken word and Then he sends that to me and what we did this time is he sent that to me and I said well actually, I You know, we actually did some editing this time the first two times pretty much what he came up with we went with.

This time I sort of went well you know this section here this section we did a little a little editing a little working on it and it took it took longer as the result and Ivy now lives basically on the other side of the planet.

From the folks at crown rights, so they they have to sort of get together and do a bunch of stuff at one time. But I knew that what I wanted to do was it was a video on the subject of marriage and the fact that Marriage is a divine institution.

That when people talk about what Jesus, you know, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. Well, I Am so tired of hearing that it is such a fallacious shallow Demonstration and whoever's saying it doesn't take Jesus seriously in any way shape or form and I Just wanted to use this young man's talents and then of course The folks at crown rights, especially Marcus Pittman and others To put something together to to speak forth the truth about the fact that marriage is a divine institution.

That it is the first institution Established amongst men and that to redefine it which is exactly what's going on right now. This isn't a matter of civil rights or anything like it. It is a matter of Redefining what marriage is that that That activity is an anti-christian activity and it's a it's an activity that is that is anti human life.

It really is it it is destructive of human life destructive of human society and yet we have it going on all around us and so It's been a number of months since I sent those initial thoughts to Ivy I've watched as they've gotten together done the shooting then it takes it.

Believe me. I I do a little teeny bit of video editing once in a blue moon and it's a a very Challenging activity shall we say and so just yesterday I got to see the video and I was able to get a good internet connection and was able to download it then upload it up to to YouTube my first request actually for all of our listeners is Pray that it stays there because quite honestly we we already know that in Western culture a freedom of speech is under attack and Especially on this subject.

I mean YouTube is owned by Google just last week Google Launched a legalized love campaign all across the world Where they are seeking to promote the redefinition of marriage In in every quote-unquote homophobic country and So I realized that the chances are actually rather good That someone will launch a campaign to have any type of you know The other side in this matter just simply wants to silence everybody else.

They don't believe in tolerance. They don't believe in diversity they have redefined both words into their exact opposite meanings and So first of all, pray that the the video will will stay Where it is where it can be most easily accessed by the most number of people obviously we could take it to other sources we could take it to.

Vimeo.

There are other places we can go, you know worst comes to worst. My understanding is sermon audio even hosts some videos and before long that may be the only place we can go with almost anything. To be perfectly honest with you, but first of all pray that the video stays there but then secondly, you know, we don't have excuse me, but we don't have a You know a promotional department.

We don't have a PR department. We don't have money and funds for that kind of thing in the first place and so the only way that we can get Mutato and channel just said Google also owns the state of Oregon.

Probably it is probably true. And possibly New York Massachusetts definitely and they're working on California, but I'm not sure if they want to buy California because it's so far in debt That that would be a bad thing.

But anyway It's okay studio audience may laugh. We do have a studio audience today. I'm sort of I'm sort of trying to start trying to turn just a little bit their direction but I have to keep my mouth face toward the microphone or I'll disappear but So so I Said something funny and someone one person in the studio audience laughed and that's a good thing for me.

That's that really. Then it scares me though. Is it Barry? Aladdin's here and if I start making people laugh He's gonna start coming in because he believes that he is the vice president in charge of comedy and therefore He will have to you know, shut me down and start doing what he's supposed to do.

I see there He's going. I knew as soon as I said that that would happen. Anyway, what I was trying to say is you all are our best. Means of getting word out about this this video this morning. I Did let Michael Brown know about it and obviously Michael Brown has a very large audience of folks who likewise I think would be willing to to promote this and share it with people but Especially on a subject like this.

I mean how many people are going to an evangelical church? This this coming Sunday and they have The married groups and things like that and are concerned about the redefinition of marriage and and recognize that that in in Europe where this has Taken place years before this.

It has not resulted in just simply an expansion of marriage rights to others. It has resulted in the destruction of marriage itself. Because once you start redefining marriage, eventually, it's just simply a relationship between folks it's nothing more than A country club.

It's nothing more than joining, you know when I was a kid I was a member of the Estes model rocket club. Whoo-hoo, you know, I mean that's That wasn't funny very I was a member of the Estes model rocket club.

And it's a good club to be a member of. I want you to understand that but anyways It destroys marriage it turns it into something that is well what is you know, it's interesting the term Koine koine Greek means common koine means common it makes marriage koine.

It means it makes it common. It makes it profane profane, you know, we talked about profanity. But really profane just simply means that which is not holy that which is not set apart that which is common.

Which is regular and that's what that's what it does to marriage and so there would be a lot of people in those churches that would be concerned about the redefinition of marriage and here is a way of Communicating the important elements of this the fact that marriage is defined by Christ.

He is our creator. It also has a gospel presentation in it so let people know about it post it on your Facebook pages and and retweet the tweets and all the other things that you can do to to get this kind of stuff out there and that will help us tremendously to to get it there because we like I said We don't have the the funds and things like that to buy the type of advertising that a lot of people do and so it is it is Just my request that you'd be able to do that that you'd share it with others and and that's that's what helps it get out.

There I think the first video we did with Ivy has had about a hundred and fifty thousand and just under a hundred and fifty Thousand video views we'd like to have a whole lot more than that. You know the the video that was responding to had over a million.

But we also recognize that. We represent a rather minority opinion that. You know, I was mentioning to Barry you know if this is one of the the times when the fact that we have not done networking and that we don't try to.

Well, I say things that get us in trouble. Okay. Let me just give you one name as an example Erkin canner, okay. Since you do something like that. Since you feel it's important to do things like that.

Then you cut yourself off from the natural networking that that could otherwise be there and. But I think it's important. It's it's necessary to be able to say what you need to say when you need to say it.

So help us with it and what we'd like to do and by the way. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number like I said if you'd like to comment on the video or. Maybe you'd like to call in and say that, you know, Brad Pitt's mom.

I don't know if you if you'd like to call in. That's the number to call him. But I did want to play the audio for the video for you for those, you know. There's some people that just don't do videos for some odd strange reason.

And so I've asked rich back at the studios to have it all queued up and ready to go. So let's go ahead and and play the video the audio of the video on the divine institution of marriage. What is the nature of love the love that exists between a man and a woman is not a mirror image love.

It is the love of one who is different than I am. When will we listen to Christ his wisdom his perfection? He predicted his own death burial and resurrection. He even raised the dead. Came sight to the blind now.

Stop to him instead of talking all the time. After all he's the creator of heavens in this world. Created the first couple made him boy and girl. I mean man and woman. A wife for a husband. We have no right to change what he set up in Jesus said for this cause.

Shall a man leave his mom and dad. Yes, clean to his wife and the two shall be one flesh marriage represents Christ in a church. See, he's the bridegroom. We're the bride see how it works and it's wonderful.

Why he allows us to bear fruit like it's only a man and a woman that could reproduce men protect women nurture. That's factual same-sex marriage. It's simply unnatural and no number of votes would ever change his mind.

Marriages between a man and woman. It's divine when I see a man. I see the same exterior. So please answer this. How could you really love a mirror that selfishness shameful us with passion? But when a male and a female marries it requires selflessness.

Now that's a challenge, but some of you say you don't believe in Christ and you was born gay. And this is your life. Well, I was born a criminal addicted to the world truth. The fact of the matter is I was born like you born a sinner shaped in iniquity dead in my sin.

To the spirit quicken me allow me to see that God came in the flesh lived a perfect life and still would taste death. I mean suffered the father's wrath. For all sinners that would change their mind about their sin and trust in him the wages of sinners.

Death, but since he's never sinned three days later the Christ would rise again. So calling all lesbians. Calling all gays. Repent from your sins. Today is the day so don't harden your heart. Cry out to the Lord.

May he set you apart. Amen.

Point and that's exactly what we needed to to do. And so I'm very thankful that To have these opportunities as I said, I'm still absolutely amazed that I I don't know how this this funny-looking bald Scottish guy got hooked up with people like Ivy and and people like Shilin and Lecrae and others who know who I am and stuff.

I I don't even know how you that stuff happens. It's just the weird world. We're in we're well, you know here I am sitting in Colorado sitting in front of a laptop. Talking to people literally all over the world.

It's just how that that type of thing happens. And so I'm very thankful for that. But again Go watch the the video and let other people know about it posted on your Facebook pages. That'll help us out a lot.

Just be prepared that if you dare. Say anything like what this video says. The people who are behind no hate. Don't know what the word hate means evidently because you will get a lot of it. I can guarantee you that.

Looks like let me look here. No calls yet is the last that I see here. So that means everyone wants to have that discussion continue on as I started last time I will let rich know. I'd probably like to take a break at the half hour.

So you might want to have that set up. I'll try to keep an eye on the on the clock here and we'll be ready to go for that at the at the half-hour and If someone could tell Katie well in channel that it's posted on the website on the blog at a omen Org, you will find it.

You will find it there. I'm seeing stuff flying by in the chat channel as we're speaking now. Last time we were together we began reviewing a debate that took place recently. I forget where it was. I think it was somewhere over in California as I recall.

It was put together very very short notice. Sammy's artery was in the country traveling on doing some speaking doing some debates. I believe he debated Sam Shamoon as well and as well as David would and one of the debates was put together sort of at a Very short notice.

Was the differing views of Jesus from the Islamic and Christian perspectives now again? Sammy's artery is one of the speakers for the Muslim debate initiative. Now, I realized that Not everybody in MDI is going to walk lockstep With everybody else and I mentioned I'll be doing a debate in September.

With Abdullah Al-Andalusi on the same subject that I debated Basam Zawadi on the last time I was in London and So there are obviously differences of approach and emphasis and so on and so forth. I fully understand that.

Just as there are differences in approach and emphasis on certain subjects amongst the people who contribute to the blog at a omen org. And so you'd have Some differences in in our own perspectives on particular things.

They'll certainly not on the central issues and I would assume that everybody MDI would hold to a particularly Orthodox I would assume Sunni Perspective now that I think about it I'm sort of wondering if there isn't someone associated with MDI at some level who is Shiite, but I'm not.

I'm not certain about that. But anyway, I think there was at some point in the past. Maybe there isn't any more I don't know. Anyway, Sammy's artery represents one of the major groups the Muslim debate initiative and since we will be debating and the subject of that Sammy and I will be debating is One that I I must at least thank him for being being willing to do.

I.

Haven't found many Muslims who are willing to debate surah 4157 and the Islamic denial fiction of Jesus. So it is helpful. I think to have that that debate coming up. I know that he also wants to debate the Muslim view of Jesus or the Muslim view of salvation as well.

But we'll see how many we can we can cram in to a short period of time and maybe one of those situations. We were doing more than one debate in one day if we can possibly work that out but anyways as I was listening to Sammy's artery I was Concerned and somewhat disappointed by some of the statements that were made.

They do reflect very common Islamic viewpoints. Very commonly repeated by people that you would be talking to as you speak to Muslims. And of course one of the reasons I do this is so that you will be encouraged to do so so many Evangelicals just simply won't open their mouths.

They do not want to talk to the Muslim because of fear because of unfamiliarity. I've said many many times I graduated in seminary with an absolutely minimal knowledge of What Islam teaches and I don't think that would be any any better today for for the vast majority of seminary graduates at all.

And so it's it's certainly understandable why that why that is the case but being as it may I jumped into the debate during the rebuttal period because You know opening statements tend to be somewhat general.

You're Going your own direction once you get into the rebuttal periods you actually have to start Hopefully interacting with what the other side has said and that gives you more of the of the specifics.

And so I'm thinking this is pretty much where we I forgot to write down the time. But I think this is within a few seconds one way or the other of where we stopped as we were listening to this On Wednesday when we were last together, so let's pick it up at that point.

Maybe some of you will say they're not true Christians, etc. That's another topic, but now.

Give you the context and remember what was saying said last time Sammy was saying there are thousands there are millions of Christians who don't believe that Jesus Christ is God and My response to that is well if you're going to be consistent then as a Muslim you would have to accept Muslims people who don't believe that Muhammad was a prophet or don't believe that the Quran is the Word of God and I've never met any of these folks who would for the for the Muslim side.

Oh, yes, there are absolute minimums but since Christianity, you know, look I have been very very clear in my views of the Crusades and the The activities of the Roman Communion down through the down to the centuries since Christianity true Christianity doesn't Respond to heresy by killing the heretics.

There are all sorts of people who have claimed to be Christians and yet have denied central aspects of the Christian faith. There's of course all sorts of folks but that doesn't change the fact that there is a Definition of what a Christian is and I and I would never call someone and I would never hold for example I would never hold Sammy's artery Accountable for the the statements of Muslims who clearly are completely ignorant of the Islamic faith and yet these very same Muslims want to hold us accountable for people who deny the deity of Christ as if that is Definitional for Christianity as if that's an argument against Christianity, and I I just don't believe that that is a a fair statement Whatsoever.

So when he says well, that's a different subject. You might say they're not true Christians. That's different subject. No, that is the subject that is actually central to this and a number of times He I think at least twice in this debate.

He makes that statement where he he recognizes well, you might not say they're true Christians, but that's another subject and Thereby, he doesn't have to actually interact with the inconsistency of his own argument because I think Sammy knows That from his perspective He would draw certain lines as to what is and what isn't who is and who is not a Muslim?

What is what is not Islamic theology, but when it comes to Christians, we somehow are not allowed to do that.

Again inconsistency sign of a failed argument. The fact of the matter is these Christians do exist and Let's go in the time of Jesus Let's go to his right-hand man Peter. What now? Here we go.

Here here comes an attempt to to turn Peter Into a Unitarian or into a person who does not believe in the deity of Christ and What you will and this is this isn't. This is important for you. I don't care if you're talking to the Jehovah's Witness.

I don't care if you're talking to the Mormon and Obviously that very different views of Jesus and what deity is so and so forth the the Muslim a large number of the apologetic interactions that you're going to be having with people are going to come down to.

You recognizing the presuppositional errors they make in their thinking and Sammy's up has demonstrated. Here are some very presuppositional errors in his thinking in the form of the argumentation He's going to use and for Muslims, especially but others will do it as well.

They'll say well look. The Bible says that Jesus is the Son of God not God. Now what's the presuppositional assertion there that Son of God is not a title of deity, but it is Especially clearly revealed in the fact when Jesus uses it.

Um, the Jews tend to pick up stones to stone him for saying that so what does that mean? You need to flesh out what Son of God means or One of them that's going to be used here is the people when Jesus comes into into Jerusalem.

He's the Son of David he's the Messiah. He's the prophet as if these somehow mean he's not deity. And of course we believe he's all of these things so that so what they'll do is they'll take a small portion of The full or representation of who Jesus is and let's say well because he's this then he can't be that and You need to identify that boy.

You are really limiting What Jesus can be. It's it's ironic. You don't do that with your prophet there are a number of different words that are used a number of different descriptions that are used of of your prophet and.

Yet, you don't say well because he was this then he can't be that but you're doing that to me. You're saying that because Jesus is called the Son of God. That he can't be truly deity or if he's called Messiah.

That means automatically that he's only a man or these other types of things and so listen to the argumentation. I remember this is Peter and Peter in Matthew chapter 16 when Jesus says. You know, this is who do men say but who do you say?

You are the Messiah the Messiah the Christos in Greek the son of the Blessed One. Okay, so he identifies him as the son and This same Peter and of course you just need to be aware of the fact if you're gonna quote from first to second Peter.

Just be aware. Muslims know liberals and they know liberal writings. And that's why we need to know the liberal writings and know how to respond to them. Oh, well Peter didn't write them and they'll start chopping up the Bible now.

They very very rarely go into any level of depth. Because if they really did they'd realize how inconsistent they're being because if you start listening to the actual arguments go. Wow, if I applied that to the Quran, I wouldn't believe in most of the Quran.

So they don't really go into depth. But just just remember this is the same Peter who in second Peter chapter 1 identifies Jesus as our God and Savior. Now he won't talk about that well won't discuss that listen to the argumentation about Peter.

When Jesus asked him Jesus said who do you say? Who do you think I am Peter and in Mark chapter 8 verses 29 to 30? What does Peter say? He says you are the Christ the Messiah. He didn't say you are God.

You're a part of the Trinity or the divine Son of God. Etc, etc. That's his right-hand man.

So what is that what is the assumption that is that is being that is being put there that every time Anyone says anything to Jesus any reference to Jesus whether it's from Peter Accessory of Philippi or The the crowds as as Jesus is coming into Jerusalem.

When they address Jesus they have to say Everything about Jesus so they have to identify him as Messiah and they have to identify him as the Son of God and the Son of Man and the Prophet and and and and as deity is the second person in Trinity and and you know every time that any Apostle anytime that any disciple walks up to Jesus.

He's going to have to he can't say Jesus. He's gonna have to provide a a paragraph long description, or that means Jesus isn't God now obviously. That is a completely bogus assumption. It is it is absurd and you think of all the words that are used of well.

Think of let's let's I like drawing parallels. That would be as absurd as saying that every time the Quran addresses Something to Allah or says something about Allah that all 99 names need to be attached.

Or that means that Allah isn't one of those things. So for example one of the 99 names is al-haqq the truth. All right. Well, there are times when a law is not not addressed as al-haqq the truth. So therefore he's not the truth, right?

Now it's absurd and yet that's the exact argumentation that is being used here to try to tell us that in reality Jesus is not God because in Mark's version. He says you are the Christ but in Matthew's version.

You're the Christ the son of the Living One. That's an important again. You've got to identify what the underlying presuppositions in the argumentation really is.

How did the crowd Welcome Jesus when he came on the donkey.

They say no now, let me let me stop. I'll let him finish. But what would you expect the crowd to say? I? Mean, honestly, I do. You really expect them to even understand they did it's been clearly stated in the Gospels.

They don't even understand what the Messiah's actual role is.

And.

So would you expect them to understand Jesus's use of the Son of Man from Daniel 7 or what the Son of David means or? Son of God. Honestly the crowd now becomes the standard. That's pretty amazing. I'll need to pick up with what the rest of his comment is, but we're gonna take a brief break and maybe we'll hear some of New commercials that he's been working so hard at.

Do a voiceover while while they're happening, I don't know but that's what break and we'll we'll be right back.

Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce. In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered self-help program The need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater.

I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin. Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses.

Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior. We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well. Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you.

Breaking news from the White House and the issue gay marriage for a lot of people. You know, the the word marriage was something that evokes very powerful traditions religious beliefs. I think same-sex couples should be able to get married.

The NAACP has passed a resolution Endorsing gay marriage as a civil right. This comes two weeks after the president announced his support for same-sex marriage.

Under the guise of tolerance our culture today grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Anyone opposing or questioning this today is quickly shouted down called a bigot a homophobe a hate monger Threatened and accused of discrimination.

It's become commonplace to see people who take a biblical stand against homosexuality Ostracized to the point of losing their job. How soon will it be before we will also see people losing their freedom.

Now more than ever Christians need to be equipped to be Approved workmen of God correctly dividing the word of truth as we are told in 2nd Timothy 2 15. Dr James White and pastor Jeffrey Neal have partnered to bring you their book the same-sex controversy If you are Christian This book is just one of the tools you'll need to be prepared to give a proper defense of the faith in the face of The unrighteous onslaught we face today.

The authors right for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on this subject explaining and defending the foundational biblical passages that deal with Homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans in a straightforward and loving manner.

They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and return to God's plan for his people. The same-sex controversy Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality. Get your copy today from the bookstore at a omen org.

And don't forget to search for other resources like debates and past dividing lines dealing with this very provocative issue and remember theology matters.

The Rebuttal Against Islamic Claims About Jesus

Outgo music and then we've got this other stuff that Barry's giving me the high sign. We've got an entire progressive rock band out there that we can we can draw from we got to use these guys. You know, I'm great levels good stuff man.

Great levels good stuff. Hey anyways, and they they're probably listening right now, too but I'm not sure if they could listen to the first part of the program because they are Canadian and I'm not sure the Canadian censors will allow the first part of the program into Canadia but.

And I only the I only slightly joke at that point, unfortunately because that's that's certainly what is what is coming and anyway, so We are talking we're listening to a debate that took place just a few weeks ago in California and we're listening to Sammy's after we sort of interrupted him in the middle of Arguing that the crowd did not believe in the deity of Christ.

Well, actually we would say Yeah, that's probably the case we would recognize that and in fact, even Thomas it took the post-resurrection appearance of Jesus for him to fully begin to understand this and Interestingly enough one of the things that's going to come up here that I do want you to be listening for before it comes along.

One of Sammy's arguments is Why did it take the Apostles so long to understand if these old testament prophecies were there? Why didn't everybody including all the Jews just go? Oh Messiah right there and You know, I thought I thought David came up with some good answers.

But the best answer David did not come up with and I don't think David's could be upset with me for pointing this out I think once he sees it he would go. Oh, of course. That's exactly what I should have said.

But the answer to the objection that's gonna come up here in a second is twofold first of all the presentation of the work and the ministry of the Messiah in the Old Testament is encompassing both his first advent as well as his second coming as well and So those were mixed together in their minds.

It was very very difficult. I mean think of Peter in that very same section in Matthew chapter 16. What is what does he do when Jesus starts talking about his death burial and resurrection the suffering of the of the servant?

Oh, no far be it from you Lord. And The other situation where when Jesus says he's going away the crowd says we've heard the Messiah will always what will always live that Messiah is not gonna die. And so they had taken part of the prophetic picture of the Messiah and then had missed.

The suffering element to see how the two are related to one another that's the first part of the answer but the second part. The second part goes to Luke chapter 24. This is where I would have gone Immediately in my first response to Sammy raising this issue and that is Luke chapter 24 after Jesus.

You've got that you've got the two disciples walking on the road to Emmaus. Jesus comes and he Comes into the to the room and he meets with the disciples and then what does he do? He had already upbraided the two disciples in road to Emmaus for being slow of heart and slow to believe what the scriptures had testified concerning the Messiah and When he meets with the disciples then and appears to them.

What's the same thing that he does? He explains to them from Moses through all the prophets their testimony of him and what is Luke 24 45 say. Luke 24 45 says he opened their minds to understand the scriptures there is a spiritual element to being able to understand the testimony of the scriptures the scriptures.