Full Response to Thabiti Anyabwile on Colossians and Related Topics, Open Phones

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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01:39

And greetings, welcome to The Dividing Line. Got started a little bit late there, but hopefully everything will keep running.

01:46

Possibly, even if it doesn't, we'll get it recorded. We'll see what happens. At least not what happened a couple months ago, where stop, start, stop, start, stuff like that.

01:57

A few things to get to today, and then we'll open the phones. Just a reminder, what's going on in California is sadly what is going to be heading our direction all over the

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United States. First on the left coast, and then probably up in New England, and New York, and then eventually

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Illinois, places like that. This must -stay -gay bill in Sacramento.

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Most of us look at Sacramento and we just go, it's run by crazy people. But, you know, there is a serious, the

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CalExit movement is a serious movement. It has money behind it. There are enough loony people in California to try to make this happen.

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You must understand the left wants to see the United States' power and position, which has been a stabilizing position in the world, destroyed.

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That's going to happen one way or the other. No culture that is, well, just saw just now, the

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Boston Marathon has just announced that if you identify as a woman, you can run against the women in the

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Boston Marathon. That's it. Ladies, where are you?

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Where are you? Why are there not riots in the streets? Why? I mean,

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I know it's quote unquote politically incorrect, but this is insanity. I will never, ever honor a person who has the genetics of a male who wins anything competing as a female.

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I don't, never. You are cheating and you are, you couldn't, you couldn't cut it against the other guys.

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So now you're competing against the gals because our society has lost its collective noodle.

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And this is it for the ladies in the Boston Marathon. Forget it. All you got to do is have one

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East African guy who says, I'm a gal. And that's it. The next lady will be 20 minutes behind him.

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Who's a real woman, be 20 minutes behind him. It's just, it's just absurd.

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The collective insanity of Western culture is unbelievable.

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And so when you see what's going on in the California state legislature, and I don't, you know, you can, you could hope, well, you know, there's still the

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Supreme Court. Well, that ain't gonna last very long. That ain't gonna last very long. You know, the leftists on the court,

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I think are drinking vampire blood at night to stay alive or doing something.

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And they're going to stay there as long as they can until there is democratic control, which will happen soon.

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And then they're all going to retire and be replaced with Stalinists.

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That's the only way to put it. Absolute Stalinists. And that means all the protections of the

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First Amendment, gone. Second Amendment, gone. All of it, gone. Because once you turn those things into a living document that can be reinterpreted in any way you see fit, that's the end of that.

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And it's coming. It's coming like a steamroller. The next generation wants it. The next generation, when they are asked, a large proportion of them don't think freedom of speech is relevant.

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Don't think that that's, of course, right now they're exercising it, don't realize they're exercising it, and don't think much about what it's going to be like when they can't exercise it.

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So what we're seeing in California, this bill, any therapy that seeks to change sexual orientation, behavior, feelings, or expressions will be illegal because it is defined as fraud.

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If you are a church that employs licensed therapists, your church and therapist will be prosecuted for conducting change therapy for a fee.

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If you are a church ministry that publishes and sells books, articles, or convention tickets on how to experience change and LGBT issues, you will have broken the law.

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If you or your children have been sexually abused, which has resulted in homosexual attractions, it will be illegal to seek change therapy for those homosexual feelings.

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If you or your children have gender dysphoria leading to transgenderism, it will be illegal to conduct change therapy for this condition.

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It seems to me, and again, this is California, there are already elected officials in California that I think would support the idea that since 1

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Corinthians 6, 9 -11 specifically says that you can change, that it would be good to make sure the

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Bible is not found in any libraries in California. China's getting rid of the Bible. China's probably, the theory is, they're going to be coming up with their own translation.

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Oh yeah, there you go, state -sponsored translations. That always tells you something.

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What's happening in California is just a, it's a preview window. It's a preview window of what's coming.

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That's all it is. And I think a lot of us took a vacation when

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Hillary Clinton wasn't elected. We took a vacation figuring, okay, dodge that bullet.

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But it's like, for how long? Not very long at all. And I only mean just only in this area.

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It's not like the Trump administration has been really putting the brakes on in this area.

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They haven't. This is not a big issue for Trump. So, I mean, you know, we just blew the budget up once again and funded

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Planned Parenthood. I figured the numbers out. How many tens of thousands of dollars per hour in taxpayer money still flowing into the coffers of the greatest murderous organization in the history of the world?

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Genghis Khan would be proud of these folks. But at least we thought, well, you know, if more justices die, at least nothing's happened.

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You got Gorsuch and that's it. That's probably all you are going to get.

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Because in all probability, well, you know, let's say the

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House and the Senate flip at the election. That's it. Nothing else is going to happen. Nothing else is going to happen.

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It's going to be utterly dysfunctional two years. And you won't be able to get a decent jurist appointed anywhere because the left knows that the courts are their way of overthrowing the

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Constitution of the United States, any kind of barrier in their way. So there you go.

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Sorry to be so, as my son says, thank you, Debbie Downer. But Debbie Downer, unfortunately, seems to know what's going on in our culture in Washington, D .C.

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So this stuff in California, you say, that could never happen.

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Yes, it can. Never thought same -sex marriage could happen. Never thought any of these things.

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It's the frog in the pan.

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If you try to drop a frog into boiling water, it's going to jump out instantly. But if you just leave it in there, as it warms up, it'll sit there and cook because it goes slowly enough.

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Well, the speed's picking up. The speed is picking up. It is amazing.

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Oh man, I should not have Twitter up. I'm not even looking over there.

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R. Scott Clark just said something and he's responding to Thabiti as well.

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So that's interesting. So more of the utter cultural insanity is right in front of us.

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And people always say, what's the greatest danger facing the church and things like that?

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Paul identified pressures within and without. Pressures within the church, pressures outside the church.

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And each generation, I think, has to do some serious thought as to what the greatest challenge at this particular point in time is.

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The rise of secular leftist totalitarianism, which leads to the communism of China, North Korea, the communism of the past in the

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Soviet Union, which has never been a friend of the Christian faith, has always sought to...

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Totalitarian communism understands that a Christian is a free man in Christ and therefore does not worship the state.

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And communism is based upon the ultimate authority of the state. And the next generation is already made up of a large proportion of people who are ready to embrace that in the

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West. We lost the

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Cold War. The wall may have fallen, but that just made it easier for everybody to come this direction and take over the educational institutions of the

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West. And as a result, that kind of totalitarian secularism, that's our greatest...

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That's what's coming our direction. There is going to be a great pruning. Evangelicalism, as a term, will become irrelevant because the numbers will be so small.

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The great megachurches will either become state -sponsored entertainment centers or shopping malls.

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Well, shopping malls are going the way of the dinosaur, too. Skate parks, whatever.

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There just won't be enough people willing to pay the price to keep things like that open. The true church will look a whole lot more like the true church did in the early church, a persecuted minority of people willing to pay the price, willing to pay the price.

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And it's easy for us to talk about that right now. Not a one of us knows what we are going to do outside of the grace of God when we are faced with separation between husband and wife, parents and children.

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Believers around the world face that every single day. We haven't.

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But at the speed at which this is happening, you look at those people in the California state legislature, a large proportion of them would be willing to see the power of the state used to suppress the proclamation of the gospel that says that homosexuality is a sin and that you can be changed from those desires and changed from that lifestyle and that experience, and that there is hope for someone who doesn't want to be gay, doesn't want to experience same -sex attraction, that there's hope for that person.

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There's a greater hope in Christ than there is in the living of that lifestyle and the experience of those desires.

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There are people in California that would love to have that silenced because it goes against, well, the new religious dogma of the

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West, this absolute human autonomy. This is a good way of transitioning into what we need to address.

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At this very time where we have these kinds of issues to be addressing, we find ourselves divided, and I do not think it is without purpose that the timing is as it is.

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A united, believing church that sees what the issues are, willing to sacrifice and work together to clearly proclaim to the culture around us the wrath of God and God's judgment upon a people who will so blatantly rebel against His ways, that's a formidable foe.

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So what you do is you expend great effort to divide that church and get it focused upon other things.

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Get it to where there is no unity. We're sniping at each other, and that way the others can just move ahead with their promotion of everything that is opposed to godly morality and ethics, destruction of the family, marriage unit, male and female, all gifts given by God, destroyed by man's fertile imagination and rebellious sin.

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And we're not being clear in our enunciation of the right way pointing to the light because we're divided amongst ourselves.

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And of course, I refer to, once again, and I hate having to take up the time in the program, but I have, again, contacted a number of people, both within and without the

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United States, and to a man or woman, they've all said, we're so thankful you're taking this on.

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I don't want to take this on. I don't have time to take this on. It is not something

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I desire to do by any stretch of the imagination. I understand why there might be people who would say, well, you need to put aside anything else but this.

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And I'm like, no, I have made a commitment before man and God to pursue a course of study in an area that I believe is absolutely essential for the future defense of the

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Christian faith in our modern world. And it may seem arcane and difficult for people to understand.

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I'm referring to the work that I'm doing in the papyri and CBGM and the earliest texts of the

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New Testament and establishing that text. And hopefully next week, by the way,

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I will have a review of the new film that's coming out next week, I think. I was just given access to preview it, and so I hope to have a review of it.

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My manuscript was mentioned within the first four minutes, so that automatically gives me a, when

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I say my manuscript, when you read almost everything you can put your hands on, well, everything you can put your hands on, on one particular manuscript, yeah, it sort of feels like it becomes yours in a sense.

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Anyway, that work that I'm doing, I am, you know,

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I have a lot of people on Twitter just, again, the willingness of people who do not know me, know nothing about my life, to believe slander, to believe personal attacks, it's very sad.

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I understand why people give in to the desire to either just simply say,

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I'm just not going to have anything to do with them, or give in to racial feelings and the like, because, you know, what

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Kyle Howard did last week, with that, I'm afraid to be in the same room with James White as a black man.

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We all know what that was, that was slanderous. It was doing it by being passive, and by painting yourself as a victim.

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He's so mean, and he's so unloving, and he's so hurtful, that I just don't even know if I could be in the same room with him.

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What if I turned that around and said, I, you know, I'm just not sure I could trust any of my granddaughters in the same room with Kyle J.

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Howard? What if I did that? Everybody would get it.

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Everybody would get it. And everybody would know. But no, not when it's done the other way, all of a sudden there's blinders on.

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And when I say, wait a minute, there's not a shred of evidence to substantiate such an allegation.

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Doesn't matter. As long as the allegation is made, that means someone has had the emotional experience, and it's your fault.

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There is no rational thought left there. There is no way to reason with someone like that.

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There is some guy, I'm not even gonna go back and scroll back through all this stuff. I don't even know if I could, there's so much going on through Twitter right now.

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But there's some guy just this morning, well, you know, last night he was saying, well, you know, have you ever been abused?

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In other words, I'm the abusive one. Somehow I've abused the other guy who's slandering me.

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It is so irrational. And if it was done in reverse, everyone would be screaming, but evidently it goes only one direction.

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And that comes out in Thabiti Anyabwile's response to me that he posted last night.

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Over the course of the weekend, I'll get to the background in a second, but he posted an article just last night, and in it he literally asserts, we'll look at it in a moment, but he literally asserts that this is like the abusive spouse -wife thing.

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We're the abusers, they're the abused ones. So who has been saying since the

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MLK50 thing, we're not gonna have anything to do with them. I'm done having any, you know, the fools, the non -woke church, not gonna have anything.

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Who's dividing? Who's making that direct statement and getting away with it?

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And everybody's like, oh, well, yeah, way to go. Hey, that's right, man. The double standards in hypocrisy are built into the social justice warrior mechanism.

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It's a part of how it works. It's one of the weapons. Absolute double standards.

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One side's held, one's there, the other side, whatever. It's amazing. Absolutely amazing.

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So what happened? Well, as you know, last week, we took the time during one of the programs to walk through Colossians chapter 3.

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We didn't even do all of Colossians chapter 3. I could make a significantly stronger argument if I just walked through the book of Colossians as a whole, which could be done fairly quickly actually, and establish the argument that is found there and demonstrate that the section that I looked at beginning around verse 9 is absolutely on the subject of the unity that exists in the body of Christ.

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Its entire theological foundation is laid out in what comes before and after.

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I have not seen even the beginning of an attempt to disagree with the exegesis that I offered of that text.

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Nobody. Nobody. I haven't seen anything. I saw one guy on Twitter say,

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I just don't see it. That's not exegetical response. That's not exegetical response.

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So I lay this out, and at some point,

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I believe on Saturday evening, was it Saturday evening? Yeah, Saturday evening.

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I'm watching stuff going by while doing what I'm doing, and I follow...

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The nature of social media is very often, I won't see things on my screen, but you'll see somebody else that you actually are interested in or follow or something, say something, you go, well, what's that?

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And then when you click on it and start following the thread, that's when you see stuff. Now, sometimes it was there, but I'm just not sitting here going like this.

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Well, I wonder what's gonna be said next. I don't have time for that. And there are times

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I wonder about TweetDeck, to be honest with you. But there are times I wonder about TweetBot as well.

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And if you quote unquote tweet something to me, that does not mean I've seen it. You may well be muted.

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I've got a fairly lengthy mute list. And you may well be blocked. But even if you're not muted or blocked, that doesn't...

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I might see 30 % of what goes by. And when I get back from a long bike ride or something, yesterday,

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I went and spoke at a Greek class here at a local seminary. And I had a great time with the students and stuff and I brought my

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Hour of the Ministries 1550 Stephanus text with me and showed that to them.

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Unfortunately, that finally gave into the cover. The cover finally, it's just laying on it now.

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So I'm not sure what to do about that. I've got to ask a book collector, what do you do when the cover... Because it's always been super loose.

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Now, it's gone. Well, it's not gone. But what do you do then? How do you do that without damaging the value of the book?

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Of course, the value of the book primarily is to show what it looked like. We're not going to be trying to sell the thing as some museum piece.

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So anyway, I brought the 1550 Stephanus so we could talk about Greek texts and stuff like that. Well, when

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I get back from being gone literally for four or five hours,

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I do not sit there going, let's see, where were we? I don't care.

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It's just not that important to me. And so there's just all sorts of people just throwing all sorts of stuff and it's very clear people want to believe what they want to believe.

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And they're going to believe what they're going to believe. And if Kyle Howard, you know, was it

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Dwight McKissack? You know, within two tweets of an exchange over the weekend, he accused me not only of ignorance, but no, inconsistency.

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And what was the other one? I forget what it was. But just immediately to the flamethrower.

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Don't even know the guy, but that's the kind of stuff that I'm seeing.

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And it's like, everybody else does notice it, but it seems that one side gets to do that and everything is okay when they do it because they're doing it for social justice.

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So in the midst of all this, I see a tweet and it was from Phil Johnson of Grace To You.

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And Phil linked to a blog article by he who cannot be named.

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I'm not sure what you just did up there, but I now have a little screen inside a big screen. There we go.

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By he who cannot be named. And I do not mean Voldemort, though for some people,

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Doug Wilson is Voldemort. Pretty much same thing. He linked to Doug Wilson's article on evangelicals and Thabiti Anyabwili responded by saying, oh,

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I get it. Now I understand. You don't understand the gospel. You don't understand the gospel.

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So he says to the president of Grace To You, you don't understand the gospel. Now, I just ask you to think for a moment what the response would be if someone said that to Thabiti based upon Thabiti linking to whatever.

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It's probably happened, especially back during the election when Thabiti was beating the

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Bush for Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders when Bernie Sanders was still running. And there are a lot of people like, whoa,

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Holocaust amongst black babies? Hello? But there you go.

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And so I'm sitting there looking at that and I'm like, all right,

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I'm going to go ahead and do it. I'm going to respond. And I forget how many tweets there were.

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They're listed in the article that I posted yesterday afternoon. It might have been yesterday morning.

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Anyway, I got up Sunday morning, saw that Thabiti had answered my tweets in an article posted on the

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Gospel Coalition website. And so I took a short

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Baptist nap on the Lord's Day and got to work on my response, got most of it done.

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And then I flowed the idea yesterday morning, I wonder if TGC would post my reply.

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And Thabiti said, I will. I said, okay. So I sent it to some friends.

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They looked it over and I added some stuff to it yesterday.

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I wanted to expand the ending a little bit and did a few things like that and got it posted.

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And Thabiti did post it. Since there was a number of hours between when

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I posted on our website and when I finally was able to get him the text, because I didn't have an email, he had already written a response.

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So they were both posted at the same time. And you can go to AOMN .org,

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read it. Other people posted it at other websites. And what

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I did in my article was I interacted.

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For me, the main thing that is going to attract my attention is, does the person to whom

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I'm speaking defend what prompted the exchange, which was his statement to Phil Johnson, you don't understand the gospel.

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Now, you see, if he had said, you know, Phil, you and I see the ramifications of the gospel differently.

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I see the following necessities flowing from the nature of the gospel.

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And they are these things in regards to race relations, the guilt of racial groups, the continuing necessity of racial groups to be in a constant state of repentance for what their ancestors did.

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And then you could try to make an argument that this is what we see in the early church, is we see regular, constant expressions of repentance on the part of racial subgroups in the church for what their ancestors did to other racial subgroups in the church.

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And since back in the days of Rome, that was everybody. I mean, there would have been constant penance feast days where one group is apologizing to another group, and then that group the next month is apologizing back to another group, and then two groups are apologizing.

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It just would be sort of hard to demonstrate from the New Testament because there isn't anything like that, but at least you could make the argument that way.

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But that's not what he says. You just don't understand the gospel. And it sounds like when you say you don't understand the gospel, it sounds like a lot of people are going to read that going, you're not embracing the gospel.

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And this is spoken at the very same time that Kyle J. Howard is saying that he is more confident of Martin Luther King's conversion than of Jonathan Edwards or George Whitefield, which sounds like from their perspective that they are holding men of previous generations to a standard that if they were slave owners or they were not active in abolitionism, they probably weren't

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Christians, probably weren't saved. So they're adding that to the gospel. So if that's happening at the same time, you turn around and say to a

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Anglo—seems to be one of the terms you can use these days—Anglo church leader like Phil Johnson, you don't understand the gospel, you might be suggesting that person's actually not a part of the body.

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And so I responded with reference to Colossians 3, and then he responded, there can be no reconciliation where there is no truth -telling first.

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As I looked through this article, the first thing that I—I'm sorry, his response was called

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Four Ways the New Testament Identifies Ethnicity in the Church. Sorry about that. So I addressed all of them.

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In my response, I addressed all these alleged four ways, and I was—I expressed serious concern about the exegesis that was offered both in the third and fourth points.

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Specifically, his utilization of Colossians 4 to, in essence, modify the ground of unity that's found in Colossians 3.

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And then in the fourth point, where he was talking about in regards to sin, I was absolutely taken aback.

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Absolutely taken aback. To establish the idea that you can call groups within the church to specific repentance, not just once, but evidently just to live in a constant state of guilt over the past, which is really what a lot of us have been trying to say.

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That's not the message of Colossians. The handwriting of ordinances against you was nailed to the cross.

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It's done. It's gone. It's taken away. No, it's not. No, no. That sin stays and there needs to be this constant repentance for it.

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The other sins, okay, fine. They're not, I guess, as big or as important. I don't know.

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But this sin, you may be a Christian, but there still needs to be this racial repentance, reconciliation stuff going on.

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And of course, many of us go, that is utterly disruptive to the foundation of the unity of the church.

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And outside the United States in multicultural lands that I go to all the time, I've talked to people,

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I've contacted people, and they're all sitting there going, that's really happening in the States? There are people that really are agitating like that?

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If we had, if that was going on here, our churches would never be able to do anything. We're so small, we all got to get along and we love each other.

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And we don't, we don't recriminate about what has happened in the past. But here in the

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United States, well, it's the big thing. It's the big thing. So what he did was to substantiate this, this idea, he went to Epimenides.

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You go Epimenides, what? Paul quoted a Cretan philosopher by the name of Epimenides.

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Remember, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.

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This testimony is true. That's where he goes. To substantiate the idea that, and to even make the connection that the modern

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American church are the Cretans that need to be slapped upside the face, which

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I guess is what he's saying is, that's my defense for having slapped Phil Johnson upside the head, is he's a

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Cretan. He's like the Cretans. And since Paul told Titus, slap him upside the head, then we're just, we just need to, we're just, we're just doing what

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Paul said to Titus. And I'm like, that's really stretching bad.

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I mean, really, really, really bad. I mean, really stretching badly. And so I interacted with that.

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And so one of the biggest questions that I had when he responded to that was, how is he going to respond to the exegesis of the text, to the actual biblical argumentation and the refutation of what seems to be really manhandling the text, both in Colossians 4 and in Titus 1.

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And so I need to look at these things. Sorry, I hate to take up program time with this, but at the same time, if I don't,

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I'll be accused of dodging it. If I do, I'll be accused of being unkind, and it doesn't matter in this whole field.

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It doesn't really matter what you do. But I'll try to be as brief and to the point as I can.

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Now onto the issues raised. I'm just quoting from the article posted yesterday evening.

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But for the sake of argument, let's let Dr. White's concern stand. So Mr. Wilson says, racial reconciliation must start with forgiveness.

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I referred in error to the gospel. That's my bad. I own that. So I appreciate I wanted to read that because that is a big difference, and that racial reconciliation must start with forgiveness.

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He had said the gospel. He had actually made the error. He said in the tweet where he said to Phil Johnson, you understand the gospel, that Wilson said that the gospel begins not with repentance but with forgiveness or something along those lines.

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And I quoted from Wilson's articles that that's not what he said. So the entire original assertion was a misrepresentation.

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But it doesn't matter because, as he says, but it doesn't change the point. Racial reconciliation does not start with forgiveness either.

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Now I want you to hear this. This is where the divide is because racial reconciliation does start with forgiveness.

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Any relationship in the Christian life begins with the recognition that you have been forgiven in Christ, therefore forgive one another.

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It is the foundation. If you say otherwise, we are on completely different pages. We are on completely different pages.

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The exhortations given to the church assume repentance and faith. They're the gifts that are given at regeneration.

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Now we're talking about what happens in the church with people who are dedicated to the gospel.

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And we start with a recognition of our redemptive state, the price that has been paid for our forgiveness, which is the exact price paid for every single other person in the church's forgiveness.

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That's what makes us all one. The ground is level at the foot of the cross. That's why when we come to the supper, there's one table.

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There's one bread. There's one wine. We're one body. That is the foundation.

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When I see a board member of the gospel coalition saying racial reconciliation does not start with forgiveness either,

41:43

I just want to scream. There is clearly an external source determining what

41:53

Thabiti thinks on this issue. There's no form of reconciliation that starts with forgiveness.

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All reconciliation, if it's informed and true, begins with either the injured party declaring someone's offense or with the confession and repentance of the guilty party.

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Do you see the problem here? His understanding is based upon the human's experience with one another.

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The gospel's based upon God's dealing with his elect people in Christ.

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God's the offended party. That's why we have equality with one another because God's the offended party.

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He's dealt with it in Christ. Therefore, we can have peace with one another because we all have the same standing.

42:42

Have I missed something? Is there someone who would dare to argue that's not true? Biblically speaking,

42:52

I'm just left stuttering. All of this is based upon importing from other sources.

43:02

And look, Thabiti has a long history of, you know, he changed his name to an African -style name and, you know,

43:09

Islam, then he comes out of that. But there's still a lot of radical stuff that he's read in the past that I believe is forming the lens that ends up distorting seriously the

43:21

Ordo Salutis itself and its focus. The primary concept of reconciliation in the

43:31

New Testament is between—it's worked out in the sacrifice of Christ where all things are reconciled to God.

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All things. Colossians 1. And that lays then the foundation for Colossians 3.

43:47

If you are in Christ, if you are the elect, the called ones, the eclectoi is used just above this in chapter 3, then this renewal you're experiencing knows no ethnic distinctions.

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There is no race. There is no basis for saying there needs to be a secondary work of repentance to bring about racial reconciliation, which wasn't worked out evidently at the cross.

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That's a secondary type of reconciliation. It needs to be added later on. And it's a constant state in the church.

44:24

Nothing in the New Testament even hints at such a thing. Nothing. So to try to get forgiveness without admission the next time you offend or injure your spouse, especially when it's the same offense they've been talking to you about for years, it doesn't work.

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There is a massive confusion in Thabiti's thinking between repentance unto life and then afterwards experience in the body of Christ and how we experience relationship with one another.

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If you don't keep those things clear, there's going to be tremendous confusion.

45:08

Tremendous confusion. Anyway, I said I was going to be brief.

45:15

Mr. Wilson's post, Mr. Johnson's commendation of it, and now Dr. White's defense of it all make the same fatal flaw.

45:24

But they put forgiveness before reconciliation, which itself comes only after there's admission.

45:32

It's cheap grace. It's easy believism. And it's a light healing of the wound of God's people. It's glory without suffering.

45:39

It's a crown without a cross. It's not the way of the cross and not the biblical teaching on how we get things fixed in any broken relationship.

45:45

Well, there you go. Upside down. Upside down. And we all, all three people mentioned here are seeing the same thing and agreeing on the same thing.

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And it's frightening that what sounds like Thabiti is saying is, yeah, you know that sola fide thing?

46:06

No, not really. Not really. It's almost like, well, you can't truly be saved until the repentance you speak of becomes a repetitive thing.

46:23

At what point do you have peace with God? I mean, these are questions

46:30

I have to ask because I deal with Roman Catholic. That's sort of a Roman Catholic idea.

46:36

The sacramental system, the repetitious nature of the sacramental system — there's just all sorts of parallels we can start drawing here that really make me wonder, what is it you are saying?

46:50

And what is the basis of the relationship we are supposed to have with God and with our fellow man?

46:57

Are you saying that we have peace with God, but then we have to go about trying to establish peace with our fellow man in the church based upon something that we do rather than the renewal work by the

47:10

Holy Spirit in which there is no distinction, which is the direct biblical didactic teaching of the

47:17

Bible without counterexample? Without counterexample. Subtitle, Life Outside of Race and Ethnicity.

47:30

Now here, it is amazing.

47:41

Dr. White adamantly asserts throughout the post that the recognition of racial or ethnic differences is essentially antithetical to the work of Christ on the cross.

47:51

Recognition of these things within the body of Christ as believers relate to one another.

47:59

I do not have the right to bring my ethnicity, my ancestry, my

48:06

DNA test into the fellowship and say to everybody else, privilege me, study my history so that you won't microaggress me.

48:19

That's right. We don't have the right to do that because that makes me and my history relevant to how the peace of the church is to be established rather than the fact that all of that, sinful as it is for all of us, we can all look back at our ancestors.

48:41

All of us can look back on our ancestors and find sin.

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That can never therefore be the foundation of unity in the church. Every one of the religions of men, every one of the philosophies of men that has tried to bring about peace in the church has failed.

49:00

Why? Because they can't provide a new beginning. Christianity can with an empty tomb and a new life in Christ.

49:09

But we're being told, no, no, that's okay just in your relationship to God. But here in the church, no, this is the body.

49:18

That relationship to God is primary. It defines this. He wants to maintain a priority on Christian unity by minimizing natural distinctions.

49:30

No, I'm simply stating that the natural distinctions are absolutely subsumed under the act of God in reconciling us to himself through the body of Jesus Christ.

49:45

That's the Christian message. But that doesn't fit in when you are seeking to promote the idea of the ongoing.

49:58

If you want to say there is a division and a disunity that has not been dealt with by sound theology, therefore we need to deal with it.

50:12

And you folks are the ones perpetuating it. That's what we have going on here.

50:19

Dr. White claims I want to primarily maintain these distinctions. He describes my position in contrast with his own.

50:25

Thus, it is vital to his stance that we be very much aware, primarily aware, in fact, of the race of others.

50:31

And it seems this is just as true in the church. I stop in my own quotation of myself. If he can write what he wrote at the end of that article on I think the 4th about white evangelicals and things like that, yeah, this means it is a primary distinction.

50:51

He doesn't say white and black evangelicals. He doesn't say Chinese and Hispanic evangelicals.

50:58

You've got to have a lens in place that allows you to create a group. This is identity politics based upon skin color, ethnicity, sometimes you use the term

51:10

Anglo, whatever. That's what's going on. I have often noted, this is quoting me,

51:24

I have often noted that I do not see color when I look upon fellow believers. I'm not physically blind, but my sincere Christian experience is that I neither invoke nor allow any racial lens when interacting with my fellow believers.

51:36

That's what I had said. Now, there's my testimony, and I have explained why this is in the past.

51:45

I've had black brothers do videos where they look in the camera and go, stop talking about black issues.

51:52

Stop talking about what happened in your past. Oh, you get to talk about what happened in your past, but I don't get to talk about what happened in mine.

51:59

And that's exactly what they mean, because I'm the wrong color. My experience is irrelevant.

52:05

I'm the abusing spouse. They're the abused spouse. So they get to, their experience is important and should be honored.

52:15

My experience can be laughed at or if we're Thabiti Anyabwili, the first words he says after that quote is, yeah, that's rubbish.

52:24

Yeah, that's rubbish. That was one of the first things I saw when I looked at his article.

52:30

I'm scanning through it, seeing what it's covering, and I see, yeah, that's rubbish. And so I tweeted to him, and I said, could you identify which part of the preceding paragraph was rubbish?

52:47

And at first he said the latter, which is my statement that I will not use racial lenses.

52:53

He says that's rubbish. He's saying I'm lying, or at least I'm self -deceived. Last year

53:03

I got to meet a young man in London, and we met at this great place real close to this hotel

53:14

I love staying at. And when we met, started talking, and I find out that our ministry and YouTube channel was real important in his conversion, and that's always super encouraging, and it always amazes me that the

53:38

Lord has used this little ministry now across the world. And the whole time,

53:48

I'm simply talking to a on -fire believer who shares so much with me.

54:01

And when I say, yeah, that I thought back on, oh yeah, he's Black, that it just doesn't enter my mind.

54:10

I haven't explained why, but I'm going to stop explaining why, because obviously people on this side don't care. And they don't believe that there is anyone who, because of, you have to hand it to the grace of God.

54:25

I guess the grace of God can't do this. I guess the grace of God cannot do this. But because of my experience as a young person, when

54:36

I walked up to that table, I'm just making sure that I'm sitting down at the right table with the right guy.

54:45

What color he is doesn't matter to me. I don't put up a racial lens and start going, well,

54:51

I need to avoid saying this, I need to avoid saying that, and I need to try to be racially sensitive about this.

54:58

He's just another believer. And we're going to talk about our common faith in Christ and our common experience.

55:07

And it never crosses my mind to put up another racial lens where I will be offended if he says something that might offend my

55:16

Scottish heritage. Never crosses my mind. Ah, that's rubbish.

55:24

It's rubbish right there. Yeah, that's rubbish. I don't know how Thabiti knows my heart and my soul, but seems to think he does.

55:33

That's rubbish. Can you imagine if I reverse that about his experience? Both the claim that race is primary in my thinking about people, as well as the claim that he does not see color.

55:45

Yes, I push back against color blindness, because God who made us is not blind to color, even though he doesn't make the sinful associations we've made with it.

55:54

I'm not denying that my friend is black. I am denying that his skin color is relevant to what unites us in Christ, and therefore,

56:05

I should run a filter in my mind about microaggressions, macroaggressions, systemic racism, historical repentance.

56:18

I wouldn't speak to the man if I had all that stuff to have to go through. I'd just sit there and stutter.

56:29

I push back because as a trained psychologist, not as a trained exegete, but as a trained psychologist,

56:37

I can tell you that's just not how the mind works. Trained psychologists are also the ones telling us in California that you cannot be ex -gay, right?

56:49

Do you believe you can, Thabiti? I'd be really interested in finding out. 1

56:54

Corinthians 6, such were some of you. As a trained psychologist, because your degrees are in psychology, as a trained psychologist, can you be changed?

57:06

Can God remove same -sex attraction? Be interested in knowing, because the left doesn't know.

57:15

But forget about psychology. The Bible tells us that's just not how the mind works.

57:20

That's why it warns us repeatedly against judging others on improper bases. The mind is a ruthless stereotyper.

57:28

And while it can and must be renewed, Dr. White claims for himself something that's quite incredulous.

57:35

You see, in Thabiti's world, I don't exist. Therefore, it's rubbish.

57:41

He's incredulous that I have the experience in my past that I have, and that I relate to people the way

57:48

I do. I would think it would be a wonderful thing. He'd be excited. That's great. That's how it should be.

57:54

Incredulous. It's not surprising he has to admit that he misses things. I was talking there about a member of the ministry, that if you stand back and you go, put racial lens on here, think about these things.

58:11

Oh yeah, American Indian. That's not how I look at him.

58:18

That's not how he wants to be looked at. That's what I meant by missing things. Makes sense that attempting to view the world in ways other than it actually is leads you to miss things.

58:31

See, from this perspective, nowhere better in this article did he demonstrate the truthfulness of what

58:40

I have said. These people say the racial lens is primary to everything else. That's what you must recognize first.

58:48

It's just a given. And if you say otherwise, I'm just incredulous that you think you could actually do that. Like the way that paragraph slides from a denial of seeing color to not recognizing the ethnicity and culture of American Indians, Chinese, Africans, Asians, because he simply does not care.

59:07

Yes, I do not care what your ethnicity is in the body. And I don't think you should care what mine is.

59:17

That doesn't mean that I don't enjoy wearing my kilt once in a while at a wedding. That's not the same thing.

59:25

But that's not the basis of our unity. And when you come along and start dividing that unity by saying, you people who are of this ethnicity, you need to do this, that other people don't need to do, that's where the problem lies.

59:41

We've been reconciled to God, but now we need racial reconciliation. Well, I scanned down, and I didn't mean to take all this time.

59:55

I scanned down and there's a section on exegesis, because I have spent a little bit of time in providing what

01:00:05

I think is a strong interpretation of Colossians 3.

01:00:10

I could go much more in depth than I have. As I said, no one's touched it.

01:00:19

I don't think that there is anyone on that side that can. Not for lack of capacity, but if you've been trained in the languages, you're going to have to go, well, yeah, that's what it says.

01:00:30

You may want to argue application, but good luck. Go for it. Go for it.

01:00:37

Thabiti did not try. He did not try to refute what I said. What he tried to do is undo it by saying, but the application is wrong, because over here in Colossians 4, well, remember what was,

01:00:51

I need to bring it up here. I apologize. I should have had this up already. The concluding remark that I quoted twice in my article, here it is.

01:01:14

This is what he said in the previous article. So you see, the New Testament is actually a pretty ethnicity or race conscious collection of writings.

01:01:27

The only way that statement can be true is that the New Testament does not deny, well, it does deny the existence of race.

01:01:35

There's one race. That's clear. But it does not deny the existence of ethnicities.

01:01:43

No one's denying the existence of ethnicities. The point is that the New Testament teaches that in the church, your ethnicity is not a part of your relationship with fellow believers.

01:01:56

What your ethnic group has done to another ethnic group is not a part of your relationship to fellow believers.

01:02:01

The renewal being made in our lives by the Holy Spirit of God, where we are being made in the image of Him who made us, is a renewal that knows no distinctions.

01:02:13

The direct teaching of Scripture is it is Christ who is all and in all, period.

01:02:20

You introduce anything else to you're denying it. You're denying it. That's the problem here.

01:02:31

So you see, the New Testament is actually a pretty ethnicity or race conscious collection of writings. How did he demonstrate that?

01:02:40

Well, he went to Colossians chapter four and he said, well, look, here's where it is.

01:02:55

Read on into Colossians four and we'll see Paul noting the ethnic or racial backgrounds of a good number of people he greets.

01:03:07

Now, what would be the only way for that to be relevant? If he makes distinctions between them in the church as to their relationship to one another, their duties to one another, for example, saying the

01:03:22

Gentiles, well, saying the Jews need to be practicing public acts of penance and repentance toward the

01:03:32

Gentiles for their mistreatment of them in the past or for their resistance to their inclusion in the body of Christ.

01:03:40

That would be relevant. Doesn't happen, of course, but that would be relevant. And the theology

01:03:59

Q &A, I'm actually reading his words and responding to them fairly.

01:04:09

You're the emotional one, not me. I'm actually taking the time to accurately read what the other person is saying and you're so tied up in your postmodern emotionalism that you're worried about tact?

01:04:27

Define tact based on truth, please, and everything will be fine. Amazing.

01:04:33

I shouldn't have even looked. I should just minimize. Oh, yeah, you're going to move the camera over here so I can't even see.

01:04:40

I'm just going to minimize. It's just like the insanity in Twitter is beyond comment.

01:04:48

The problem is my Bible's over here. No, that doesn't matter.

01:04:55

So whatever he was saying, let's stick with Colossians since that's the text

01:05:02

Dr. White chose. Read on into Colossians 4 and you will see Paul noting the ethnic or racial backgrounds.

01:05:08

He points out who among them are Colossians. Then we just stop and say,

01:05:14

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have laughed, but the argument here is laughable.

01:05:21

I'm sorry, but it is. You're writing a letter to the

01:05:26

Colossians and you mention that one of the people you're greeting is from Colossi and that means you're recognizing race and ethnicity and this is supposed to modify the teaching of the previous chapter that the renewal that we are experiencing in Christ knows no such distinctions.

01:05:59

So I guess the idea is, well, if it knows no such distinctions, then they cease to exist and you no longer live anywhere.

01:06:06

No. In each instance in Colossians 4, he mentions three people of the circumcision.

01:06:14

He says, they're the only ones of the circumcision that have stood with me. He mentions somebody from Colossi. He mentions

01:06:21

Onesimus and if it's the same Onesimus of Philemon, then he was either a slave or a free man.

01:06:29

All categories that Paul has set in Colossians chapter 3, there is no distinction in this renewal.

01:06:35

Everyone experiences it in the exact same way. That's the foundation of our unity in Christ and somehow he's undoing that because we can see that there are people who live in Colossi and that he recognizes that only certain of the circumcision have stood with him and others have opposed him.

01:06:59

Anyone who is trained next to Jesus knows you don't go to a greetings section and say, ah, here we have the author modifying the didactic section of the epistle by noting the descriptions of people.

01:07:19

Or if you're going to do that, how about noting the fact that what he simply does with all of these people is he says, faithful brother, fellow servant, sunergoi, adelphos, agapitos, doesn't matter whether they're

01:07:34

Jewish or Gentile, freed or slave, they're fellow workers in Christ.

01:07:41

There's nothing here. And so I point that out. And then like he said, he goes to Titus chapter 1 where Paul is writing to Titus.

01:07:54

He says, Titus, you need to establish sound elders in that church because they are going to need to exhort strongly in sound doctrine because the

01:08:10

Cretans are a people who as a group seem to be in danger of accepting the myths and legends of the

01:08:24

Judaizers who would try to sneak into the fellowship. They have shown themselves.

01:08:30

And if you look back in the history, the reason Epimenides said that was the Cretans said that they had the grave of Zeus and the rest of everybody is saying,

01:08:41

Zeus ain't dead. You people are liars. And so when you think about it,

01:08:47

Paul is saying, you are going to need to be very careful in the establishment of the elders in the church because they are going to need to hold hard upon these people and make sure that they're not led astray by these false teachers who have these really cool sounding myths, just like that myth about having

01:09:11

Zeus's grave. The Jews come along and they've got their mythology and you need to be careful that they will not be led astray.

01:09:21

Now, how that overthrows in any sense the fact that there is a oneness, is he saying, and by the way, the

01:09:35

Cretans because they're Cretans, you need to have a different Lord's Supper for them than for non -Cretans.

01:09:42

Or this would be really relevant, and if you have any non -Cretans in the church, you don't have to worry so much about them.

01:09:54

They don't need to have the same exhortation for sound doctrine. What we notice is that both

01:10:02

Colossians 4 and Titus 1 are not on the topic of what makes the church unified and what the basis of that is.

01:10:12

So exegetically, when we step back, we go, hey, we've seen this before.

01:10:20

For three decades, I have been talking about how

01:10:27

Rome will utilize texts that are not about the subject at hand to overthrow the plain teaching of the

01:10:38

Bible onto the subject, justification. You've got Romans 3, got Romans 4, got Romans 5, into Romans 6, and then you got

01:10:44

Romans 8. You've got long sections that are specifically on the topic, but they'll overthrow that by quoting a verse over here where Jesus says, wisdom is justified by her children.

01:10:57

That's not talking about how we're made right before God, is it? Oh, but it uses the word justified. So we've seen this before.

01:11:06

I have books in print. Yeah. Old, old book.

01:11:18

Available on Kindle. Justification by Faith. I'm 99 % certain that in this old, old book, which was 1990.

01:11:30

So we're coming up on 30 years for that. I point out that if you're going to look in the manual of your car, because you're having a problem with your lights, that you need to go to the section on the lights.

01:11:50

You might find passing reference to the lights in a section on the battery or a section on maintenance or things like that.

01:11:58

But you start with a section that's on the lights and then interpret all those other references in light of the specific section on the lights.

01:12:10

That's not what Thabiti is doing. Instead of going to the sections that specifically address the subject, he's saying, well, you know, over here, if we read it in a certain way, maybe we can make this type of an application.

01:12:24

And so I called him on it. And so I was really interested to see when a response is given, what that response is going to look like.

01:12:35

So on exegesis, this is getting too long. Let me simply say,

01:12:41

I think Dr. White, a very capable scholar, makes a hash of Colossians 4. That the national or ethnic distinctions are in the text is plain.

01:12:51

To say someone is one of you, meaning a Colossians, meaning someone from Colossi, is to identify that person with that group in a way that distinguishes him from other groups.

01:13:04

Well, yeah, you're right into the Colossians. He's one of your own. To say someone is of the circumcision can only be understood to refer to the religio -ethnic cultural identity of Jews.

01:13:15

Didn't deny it. It's a distinguishing mark of the covenant that separated them from the Gentiles for crying out loud.

01:13:22

The class distinction with Onesimus simply requires a little analogy of faith. Class distinction?

01:13:30

He was either a freed man or a slave. He's either Dulos or Eleutheros, one of the two.

01:13:38

Those are the terms that Paul had just said in Colossians 3. There is no distinction based on these things.

01:13:46

But someone's desperate to make distinctions based on these things.

01:13:54

Here, I think Dr. Dwight simply wants to maintain an a priori interpretive commitment that requires zero distinctions in the body of Christ, contrary to the evidence for such distinctions available since at least

01:14:04

Acts 6, where Hellenist and Hebrew widows posed the first question of inclusion for the early church.

01:14:12

The a priori here is coming from the leftist materials that Thabiti Anyabwili has been reading for a long, long time.

01:14:20

That's where the a priori is coming from. Nobody, nobody,

01:14:27

I didn't, nobody else, denied that the New Testament makes distinctions in saying that some people live in Colossae.

01:14:39

But everybody, everybody knows that read my original article. That wasn't the point.

01:14:46

That is a dodge. That is ducking. That is having no defense for the fact that you have taken descriptions of people who are fellow workers where no distinction in their relationship to one another in their service to Christ, none, zero, nada.

01:15:03

They were never put into an ethnic group. They were never made separate from somebody else. That is an absolute destruction of the context of Colossians 3.

01:15:12

It is absolutely reprehensible. No one is going to miss the fact that that is what

01:15:21

I was talking about. And that's what I was saying. Amazing. As far as Titus 1 goes,

01:15:30

I think Dr. White simply misunderstands what I'm attempting to do there. Well, that's for sure. He characterizes it as me trying to use that text to bring ethnicity into the church.

01:15:40

To be fair, God brings ethnicity into the church. But I cite the text as biblical evidence for someone speaking of an entire people's sins and doing so sharply.

01:15:52

Stop. What sin was mentioned? He's describing the character of these people as the basis of explaining why he said to Titus, Titus, you need to have elders who are going to be able to exhort in sound doctrine and refute those who contradict.

01:16:14

Because I see that these people are going to be susceptible to the Jews who come along with their myths.

01:16:22

Remember what he says to Timothy, myths and genealogies? Clearly that was a major problem in the days of the apostle.

01:16:29

He is very concerned about that. One of the chief complaints against my original post is that I spoke of an entire racial group in a way that's contrary to the gospel and scripture.

01:16:43

In citing Titus I, I simply wish to note that if I'm wrong, I'm the same kind of wrong as the apostle

01:16:49

Paul when he speaks of Cretans, which is actually Paul quoting Epimenides, a national and ethnic people group in collective terms in relationship to their characteristic sins.

01:16:59

About this, for other examples, I would actually commend Doug Wilson's post,

01:17:04

Dr. White, for consideration. Well, that's interesting in light of what he says to Phil Johnson, but that's neither here nor there.

01:17:13

So in other words, we're not offered any counter -exegesis from Colossians 3.

01:17:20

Nothing. That's fine. You can say that if you want. However, you need to, what, modify in some way, change in some way the conclusions from chapter 3 in light of chapter 4 in Titus chapter 1.

01:17:39

Evidently, that's the argument that is being put forward here. Now, I need to, oh, wondered what happened.

01:17:53

Sorry about this. It's, for some reason, the air conditioning turned off, so I'm turning it back on.

01:18:01

It is boiling hot in here. I turned it down, and evidently, maybe at noon,

01:18:07

I think at noon, it changed. And so it is, I'm going to be melting here very soon.

01:18:15

So I'm hoping to hear a fire up here in just a second. And there it is.

01:18:22

Oh, good. I was wondering. It's just like, I need to take the water.

01:18:29

All right. So what we have, then, is references to texts that in,

01:18:41

I don't, I cannot imagine finding a standard, meaningful, exegetical commentary that would say it was the author's intention to address issues of race and ethnicity in the

01:18:56

Church by quoting Epimenides in Titus 1 or by mentioning that three of the people that are being greeted in the letter are the only three of the circumcision that are staying with him, and Onesimus is either a former slave, hence a freed man, depending on when

01:19:12

Colossians and Philemon are written, or still a slave, one of the two. Neither text has anything to do with ameliorating or changing the teaching of Colossians chapter 3.

01:19:29

All right. I've got one paragraph left to go, so I guess that means I can, you probably just told somebody to call back later.

01:19:42

You didn't? You didn't? Okay, fine. I was going to open the phones.

01:19:53

Oh, okay. So, 877 -753 -3341, 877 -753 -3341.

01:20:03

We've already gone nearly an hour and a half, so I'm not sure how long we'll go.

01:20:08

Let's take about four calls at that number, and we'll go from there.

01:20:19

Sorry, something popped up on the screen that's distracting me. All right, last paragraph. His post is filled with things he insists on.

01:20:32

Things that must be this way or that. So is Thabetes. And conveniently, he always insists in directions consistent with his opinion, just as in Thabetes.

01:20:45

In other words, he's trying to rig the conversations in his favor, like Thabetes. I simply reject that.

01:20:52

So do I. Not as a matter of pride and flexibility, but as a matter of righteousness and justice.

01:20:58

Yeah, exactly. I'm sure Dr. White won't like this, and many who take his view of things won't like this.

01:21:06

But you simply do not get to unilaterally set the terms of discussion when you've chosen to represent the side of those who have committed the historical wrong over against the side of those who have suffered the wrong.

01:21:17

The side that I have chosen to represent is the side of a unified body of Christ that does not begin with racial distinctions because of the biblical teaching of the nature of redemption.

01:21:37

Notice in Thabetes' mind, he has put me into the category of the killers of Martin Luther King.

01:21:49

That's what he's done. Now earlier, when I point out, I don't even have that lens, he attacks that and calls it rubbish.

01:21:56

But now he can turn around and assign me my place, just as he did last night on Twitter.

01:22:06

When I challenged him on what he said to Phil Johnson, finally he says, hey, there's enough animosity between me and Phil Johnson.

01:22:12

We don't need you adding to it. Know your place. Get out of the way. Okay, so it's doubling the infraction.

01:22:27

So we're guilty. See, the assumption is, right at the start, you simply need to admit your guilt because of the group you are in.

01:22:39

And when we say, excuse me, in the church, even if there was a basis for talking about my progenitors, and I've shown you the picture.

01:22:55

My forefathers came here from Scotland. They came after the Civil War. They were still planting crops and scraping out a living in the

01:23:06

Midwest. They weren't in New York. They weren't in the big cities.

01:23:12

They were farmers. That doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

01:23:18

Your skin color says I can put you in there. You're guilty. You need to repent. It's doubling the infraction.

01:23:29

It's like allowing, forgive the analogy. Can you imagine if anyone on my side used this analogy?

01:23:37

It's like allowing, forgive the analogy, an abusive husband to set the terms of counseling and reconciliation to his battered wife.

01:23:45

No good pastor would do that because he knows that's simply to extend the abuse. I do apologize for using what will certainly feel like an emotionally loaded analogy to some people.

01:23:55

I'm simply illustrating the dynamic in this that I reject. And I reject the gross misrepresentation of what's actually happening.

01:24:04

Reject it and every person who thinks through this logically without the emotions and without the external baggage must reject it as well.

01:24:15

You accept this, there will never, ever be unity in the church. This is one side saying to the other side, because of your ethnicity, you must be in a constant state of repentance toward me.

01:24:29

This is what perpetuates division. This is what creates division. You've got to stop. You've got to stop.

01:24:39

It must end. It must be exposed for what it is. It's got to stop. Abusive husband to set the terms of counseling and reconciliation with his battered wife.

01:24:53

The grounds and basis of reconciliation has already been determined by someone other than us.

01:25:02

What I'm saying is you are changing the grounds. I can't change the grounds.

01:25:09

According to Colossians chapter three, someone else determined those grounds. And that first reconciliation takes place in the triune

01:25:21

Godhead, the union of an undeserving people of every single ethnicity.

01:25:31

Undeserving, every single one of them equally undeserving. Don't give me this.

01:25:37

Some people are deserving another thing. Undeserving, united with Christ before they take their first breath.

01:25:49

That's where reconciliation takes place. Father, Son, Spirit.

01:25:55

I then experience it. And I have no excuse. I have no basis therefore for not being reconciled to every other brother and sister in Christ, which is why it is only the

01:26:10

Christian faith that can bring peace to all those areas of the world where man's sin has divided around racial, ethnic, political lines.

01:26:26

That's why those small struggling churches so often with bivocational pastors that the world despises meeting in that small shack over there are little glimpses of heaven because they know what we don't know here in the

01:26:49

United States. We need each other. And what your ancestors have done to my ancestors or back forth, whatever it was, whatever the politics, it doesn't matter.

01:27:04

Once you really understand who you are in Christ, it just doesn't matter.

01:27:14

So, if your idea is that in the church we have an abusive spouse and you're the abused, you are going to misinterpret everything.

01:27:26

You are going to recriminate about everything. You are going to twist everything and you're going to read things in the scripture that just ain't there.

01:27:36

And that's what we're seeing. That's what we're seeing. I don't want to spend forever going back and forth and back and forth on this.

01:27:52

I really don't. I know it's important.

01:27:58

I get it. I get it. But were you?

01:28:06

Okay. All right. So, these are our calls. Four calls.

01:28:12

Because it's already an hour and a half in and it is getting better in here now, but you have to remember that.

01:28:20

Evidently at noon, the thing cycles and it turned back off again. It's like, oh, you wait a minute.

01:28:29

See if this is even working. Yep. All right. Let's talk with Monty. Hi, Monty.

01:28:36

Hey, Dr. Wyatt. Thank you for taking my call. Yes, sir. I just want to say, first off, thank you for your ministry and everything that you do, and I've been listening to you for a little over a year regularly on your show, and I've learned a lot from it, a lot about textual criticism and things

01:28:58

I didn't even know existed, just how you debate people. And that's probably made you really unpopular with most of your friends, because they don't want to hear about CBGM or stuff like that.

01:29:09

It ruins sermons, too, because you're like, hey, did you notice that textual variant? Everyone, go away. We don't want to even eat with you.

01:29:15

Go away. Yeah, yeah. I didn't know anything about the ending of Mark or anything like that.

01:29:22

And one of the best things you've done is show me how to represent your opponents well and to be very straight about that.

01:29:33

But the topic I want to talk about is this whole MLK thing, and I just want to say that I'm someone who went to the

01:29:40

MLK 50 conference, and so I can give that perspective on it.

01:29:47

I enjoyed it quite a lot, and I got a lot out of it. And I didn't agree with every single person that spoke on that stage, and I didn't...

01:29:57

I'm sure I certainly don't vote the same way as every single person that spoke on that stage, but there's a lot of people out there,

01:30:06

I think a lot of pastors who want to go to that, a lot of just people from small churches and communities where there's a minority population, and they want to know how to talk to other people that look differently from them, that believe, that vote differently, that sing different styles of songs, and they want to know how to reach those people.

01:30:29

And I'm one of those people that live in South Atlanta, and so that's what appealed to me.

01:30:36

Could I ask a quick question? Yeah. I didn't listen to the majority of the talks, but one of them

01:30:43

I did listen to because it was a nice short one. There was a pastor who, in talking about the hiring of Black men in churches, made the statement that many of those men who are hired are

01:31:03

Black on the outside and Anglo on the inside. And he said that from up front.

01:31:09

I'm not sure, did you hear that? And if so... I think you're talking, you might be talking about Eric Mason?

01:31:15

Yes. I don't remember... I mean, he had some rather harsh words to say, and I know he said a few things about white churches trying to hire

01:31:25

Black pastors in order to be diverse. I don't remember that specific statement. All right.

01:31:30

I just wondered if there was any pushback to that. I would think there would have to be.

01:31:37

No, but one thing I'll tell you there was a little pushback from is that the close was John Piper, and I don't know if you've heard anything about what he said.

01:31:46

I didn't. But he actually spoke on Colossians, and he closed in Colossians 3, and he dared to question

01:31:55

MLK's unorthodox beliefs, and didn't say he wasn't saved, but didn't say he was, and a lot of people were upset with that.

01:32:09

And this whole debate that's happened recently, and I make no defense to Beattie and what he said.

01:32:15

That's been strange, and I forget the other guy's name that you've been talking to. Kyle Howard.

01:32:22

Yeah, he's been terrible. But how do we have reasonable discussions with people that come from different backgrounds, agree with us on the basics of theology and the

01:32:40

Bible? I mean, all these people that were there, they are all, I think, conservative in their beliefs.

01:32:46

They believe the Bible, they know what genders are, they know what marriage is, we vote differently, and so me wanting to try to talk to them and understand them better, that's not me.

01:32:59

I don't feel like that's me caving to Marxist ideals. I just want to try to be someone who helps heal a divide in the church that is very divided on politics and skin color.

01:33:11

So what is your way of approaching that? You know, in the United States, I don't know how to answer that question right now, because when

01:33:21

I leave these shores, and this isn't the case in every church, I mean,

01:33:26

I have spoken to brothers of different ethnicities here in the

01:33:32

United States, and there's just a lot of people who are just looking at this going, where did this come from? Why is this happening?

01:33:38

We've got so much more important stuff to be doing. But when I leave, when I go to London, for example, pretty much every church

01:33:47

I go to is going to be incredibly diverse, because there are so few practicing and believing

01:33:54

Christians anymore, that they've had to put this stuff behind, because if you don't, there's only going to be you and two other people, you know, even as it is.

01:34:05

There's so few that the commitment that they have to biblical teaching and to living a

01:34:13

God -led life automatically brings them together, and they've had to come to understand that all that other stuff has to be put aside.

01:34:20

So sadly, I think that the coming socialist holocaust in the

01:34:27

United States will probably finish this stuff off, because we just simply won't have all that many people to be able to be divided over it anyways.

01:34:37

That's a sad way of having to put it. But look, the only way that I know, there's no magic pills here, the only way that I have ever seen unity amongst believers is when there is a spirit -born commitment to living in light of Christ's truth in Christ's word.

01:34:58

And when that is a vital reality amongst the people, we find ways to avoid dividing over things that shouldn't divide us, because we have the balance of the word constantly there, giving us guidance, giving us correction.

01:35:17

When that in any way becomes eclipsed by something external, that's where the problems really, really come in.

01:35:26

And so it doesn't matter what color is. We have people in predominantly

01:35:32

Anglo churches, who have become so, look, when you've got churches where everyone's wearing a

01:35:40

Make America Great Again cap, and you've got huge American flags floating from the rafters and stuff like that, it's going to be pretty hard to, you know, in a balanced way handle scripture's calling for God's judgment upon a people who are perverting marriage in that context, you know.

01:36:02

And the same way in primarily darker churches, there is a willingness on the part of some to be very politically oriented on the opposite side of that spectrum, and not recognize the

01:36:19

Black Holocaust and abortion and things like that. And so in both situations, what's similar in both?

01:36:27

And that is the, you know, the centrality of a high view of scripture, not just in saying it, but then living it out in the sense of applying all of scripture in the

01:36:43

Christian life, so on and so forth. So I don't have any answers outside of God has to give to his people a spiritual hunger to honor all of his truth and to live in light of all of his truth so as to glorify him.

01:36:58

And when a church lives in a land that is under the judgment of God, it may be a minority of true churches that continue to have that desire.

01:37:12

Because, hey, look, I've said this before, and people don't like when I say it, but I've never heard anyone contradict it either. A sound church is a blessing upon any land in which it exists.

01:37:25

And so if God chooses, you know, remember the line from the Old Testament, there's a famine in the land, a famine for the word of the

01:37:32

Lord. That was during a period of time of judgment. And so we are simply called to be faithful in the midst, even if God calls us to live amongst a people who are under judgment, he calls us to be faithful in that situation and mourn the divisions.

01:37:50

But it's a difficult line to walk. I don't want to be involved in this subject.

01:38:00

I don't want to be dealing with this. But when I see what's going on happening,

01:38:09

I can't just sit back and go, you know what, it would be a whole lot more comfortable for me if I just let this slide, because there's a lot of people that are making that choice.

01:38:17

There's a lot of other people because of the political orientations or funding and things like that. They've got to be very careful what they're saying.

01:38:25

When it gets to the point where you are scared to make gospel application because of that, things have gone down the wrong road.

01:38:35

They really have. They really have. So anyway. Well, yeah. Thank you for taking my call.

01:38:42

I just want to say that I appreciate what you do. And one really quick question.

01:38:47

When you're studying Islam, and I haven't read your book yet about the

01:38:55

Quran, but I want to, is there a certain English translation that you use or read from?

01:39:01

Or what's the most popular? The most popular one is by Yusuf Ali, but it's not

01:39:07

Yusuf Ali. Yeah. Saudi Arabia's printed millions of them and ship them over here.

01:39:13

They're easy to get and very, very cheap and usable. But it's certainly not the best translation.

01:39:20

I used somewhat of an offbeat translation in the book. And then some other good translations have come out since then.

01:39:27

But obviously, in talking to a Muslim, they're not going to allow you to use a translation of the

01:39:35

Quran. They don't believe that there is such thing as a translation of the Quran. The Quran exists only in Arabic. But 80 % of the world's

01:39:43

Muslims depend upon a translation anyway. So they're not going to allow you to use a translation that was not done by a

01:39:49

Muslim. And we can understand that. I mean, we wouldn't exactly accept a translation done by Muslims either.

01:39:54

So it goes both directions. So the Sahih Muslim...

01:40:03

I'd have to pop up my minds, obviously, on a different subject.

01:40:09

You just stripped my gears changing direction so quickly there. But there's a, from the monotheism group, starts with an essay.

01:40:20

I'll try to look it up. And that one is generally available. But there's modern translations.

01:40:26

There's the study

01:40:34

Quran, which came out about a year and a half ago. This is the

01:40:41

ESV study Bible of Qurans. And so, I mean, look at that. I'm not sure if you're watching. But the text is up here.

01:40:48

These are all the notes. So it's got a huge amount of notes in it.

01:40:53

That can be extremely helpful if you're not familiar with the Quran. The problem is translations in King James English.

01:40:59

Why in the world they did that, I have no earthly idea. That makes it sort of stilted. But, you know, there's an option there, too.

01:41:06

So there you go. Well, thank you very much. All right, man. Thanks for calling in. God bless.

01:41:13

God bless. Bye -bye. Okay. You have any direction here? Okay. All right.

01:41:21

Hi, Eric. Hey, Dr. White. I'll try to keep it short here. I know you're probably ready to wrap things up.

01:41:31

First of all, let me just say, I just want to say thanks for your ministry. It's definitely been a blessing in my life.

01:41:37

A quick breakdown, a little bit about me. I'm a Black retired police officer out here in Las Vegas.

01:41:45

So I found myself on the other end of this whole social justice movement quite often, especially in conversations with friends.

01:41:53

Well, you can't win for losing, being Black and a former cop. I mean, good grief. Yeah, tell me about it.

01:42:00

So, but here's the situation. My pastor attended the

01:42:06

MLK 50 conference, and I've been noticing a lot of tweets and things like that, kind of heading down this social justice path here.

01:42:18

And I'm just calling basically to ask for some possible advice.

01:42:24

How does someone like me, who has conservative Christian views, and I see that the problems with this whole social justice movement infiltrating the church, how do

01:42:36

I respectfully bring this up and maybe have a conversation with my pastor without trying to come across disrespectfully?

01:42:46

But just voice my concerns with this. What would you suggest I do? Well, in any situation like that, a pastor is going to appreciate a prayerful approach.

01:43:01

If, you know, I'd give it a little time while you're praying about it, while you're listening to what's being said, see if it's something that continues movement down a particular path, and you start hearing more and more and maybe going farther and farther that direction?

01:43:20

Or is it something that sort of goes back? Does it end up coming into the exegesis of the text?

01:43:27

The preaching? Are there unnatural connections being made? Are you taking texts that really aren't about a subject and making them about a subject?

01:43:37

These are some of the things that you'd want to be looking at over time. Because I've often, through the years,

01:43:43

I've said to folks, if you're going to leave a church, you need to leave a church over the right reasons.

01:43:49

And it needs to be done in, most people do not leave a church in the proper way.

01:43:55

That's just simply the reality. And what you want to be able to do is to, if you can, it can't always be done this way.

01:44:04

But if you end up having to leave a church, it would be wonderful if five years later, you run into the pastor at a

01:44:10

Starbucks or something like that. You're not trying to hide your face, or he's not trying to hide from you. And you can greet one another in the

01:44:18

Lord. And you can honestly say, you know, I'm, you know, I continue to pray for the ministry there. God bless you all, so on and so forth.

01:44:26

But if you've, if you see that continuing movement, and you have been very prayerful about it, and it's disrupting your ability to look forward to the

01:44:37

Lord's day and look forward to ministry amongst God's people and things like that, then you ask to sit down with, if it's a pastor led church over against an elder led church, it's,

01:44:48

I think a whole lot better to be an elder led church where you can, you can sit down with the elders as a whole.

01:44:54

Because that, I think, helps to keep some of the individual feelings, you know, a pastor might feel like you're attacking him individually.

01:45:04

And, you know, he's invested so much into you and his life and, and things like that.

01:45:09

And when you have elders, then you can really help to focus more upon subjects and issues rather than upon individuals, but not every church has that situation.

01:45:19

So if you can meet with him or with the elders, and then in just the most gracious way, you know how,

01:45:26

I mean, you're a former cop, you know how to try to keep things from escalating by your body language, by the, the tone of your voice, by, you know, even the speed at which you speak, we all really may not have been trained in it, but we know how to do that.

01:45:42

Remembering that a gentle answer turns away wrath, try to raise these issues and ask, is this going to be a direction that's going to be continuing?

01:45:53

And, and if in essence, what you're told is, you know, there is a strong commitment on my part or the elder's part to promote this perspective.

01:46:05

What you want to be able to say in the final analysis, if you just can't go there, and that is going to make it difficult for you to continue to fellowship there and to be involved in ministry and so on and so forth, is that when you express that, you, you do so biblically, um, uh, confessionally, uh, but with as much grace and humility as possible in that type of a situation.

01:46:32

And I know that sometimes the emotions end up taking over anyways. This is, this is the best case scenario that I'm talking about, but in as much as it depends upon you, uh, then you, you go that direction.

01:46:46

Obviously I realize in some situations, even when giving that, um, counsel that I've seen people literally disfellowshipped for, for even raising the questions in some bad situations.

01:47:00

Well, that means when you go to the next church, you're going to have to say, Hey, look, I, here's what's happened.

01:47:06

I'm underdisciplined from this church, but here's the issues and, and try to try to move on from there.

01:47:11

It can be extremely disruptive. I realized that. And that's why if a person, if you, if anyone in the audience is a member of a sound biblical church and you're not struggling with these issues, you need to be a thankful person, uh, because there are a lot of others that, uh, that are not in that, in that situation.

01:47:27

But that's, that's the best counsel I could give. Well, I appreciate it, doc. Uh, Hey, um,

01:47:33

I'm gonna let you go. Uh, you be blessed and, uh, just thanks again. Hey, well, uh, you know, I, I've been popping up to Las Vegas, uh, every little bit.

01:47:41

Hey, I've been telling my wife, I'd love to meet you. I say that's like one of the things that I like to have on my bucket list is, uh, maybe even drive down to Phoenix and come to, uh, well, you see my, my grandkids are up there now.

01:47:53

So, uh, they, they live up in North Las Vegas. I stay at the Aliante, uh, and they're just down the road from that.

01:48:02

And, uh, so I've last time I was there, for example, I just popped in for a couple of days and I rented a bike and, uh, twice.

01:48:10

Well, I didn't, and I actually went out, you know, the Red Rocks area. Oh yeah. I wrote out there is freezing cold when

01:48:16

I was there, but I've also climbed Mount Charleston and, uh, so that's more of a gym, you know, weight training, cardio guy.

01:48:24

So you don't, you don't, so you're saying you don't want to ride a bike with me all the way to the top of Mount Charleston. Pretty much, pretty much real quick, real quick,

01:48:31

Dr. White, you remember when you were on, uh, the show with, uh, Sean McCraney just a couple of weeks ago.

01:48:38

Yes. Where did you get those shoes? Man, they were tight. Those, um, those are from Taft, T -A -F -T.

01:48:47

Um, they have, uh, some really nice, uh, boots and they are comfortable and they, they look really nice.

01:48:55

Even Sean had to admit that I totally outclassed him on the footwear on that one. Yeah. Cause I tweeted, uh, your daughter and she never got back to me, but it just popped in my head while I had to tweet.

01:49:07

T -A -F -T. Yeah. T -A -F -T. Taft. I think it's taftclothing .com, but I'm not a hundred percent certain.

01:49:13

Look at that. All right. Thanks, man. All right. God bless. Bye -bye. All right. Two more.

01:49:19

Uh, which do we go to first? It's there. Okay. They're both, uh, all right.

01:49:25

Let's, uh, let's go with John then Josh. Hi, John. Hi, Dr.

01:49:31

White. How are you doing? Doing good. Good. Well, Hey, um, I had a question, but with, cause the other two gentlemen that were there,

01:49:38

I just wanted to just speak, you know, encouragement to you, especially with all the attacks that have been there recently.

01:49:43

Cause I mean, anybody that takes the time to listen to just even what you say in the past,

01:49:51

I mean, pretty much everything that you have said about like interacting with, with Muslims or, or anybody, um, applies in this situation.

01:50:00

And, um, you know, one of the biggest things I've learned from you is treating others with the same grace that we claim for ourselves, especially when they're different from us.

01:50:12

And I think, uh, uh, a supreme example of that would be like the, the conversation you had with Yasir Qadhi in Nashville.

01:50:19

Um, and so, I mean, anybody that's like, oh, I'd be afraid to be with you, just watch the beginning of that.

01:50:27

Yeah. Yeah. That, that is pretty amazing. And I, I don't know if Yasir is aware of what's going on right now, uh, or what he would think of it, to be very honest with you.

01:50:36

But anyway, yes, sir. Yes. So my question, um, I just had a question about, um, how to support some, some fellow, um, some family members that are believers, um, in some grief situation, um, which turned out today.

01:50:55

Um, my wife's cousin has, um, stage four lung cancer and I think she just turned 30 this last

01:51:04

Saturday. Um, and it's been really healthy. I don't think she's ever smoked or anything in her life.

01:51:10

So everybody's just, and they just had their second daughter. I think she's like nine months old. Um, but my concern for them is aside from all of that, and, um, they, they live in Colorado.

01:51:23

We'd gone out there about a year ago to visit them. And, um, when we went to their church, um, like the pastor had come out and he was wearing this referee, like a jersey, and he was talking about marriage.

01:51:40

And, and then the only verse that was read throughout the whole sermon was when

01:51:46

Paul's talking about, you know, something you're doing causes your brother to stumble, you need to give it up.

01:51:52

And, and his application to that was like, it was, so if your wife is trying to diet, don't eat chocolate cake in front of her.

01:52:03

And, uh, so, so my concern for, I guess, for them too, is just kind of the pastoral care, right?

01:52:11

Um, that they might, or lack thereof, be received. Hello? Oh, you cut out there for a second.

01:52:22

Still there, John? Yeah, I'm here. Okay, you keep cutting out on us there, but the last thing

01:52:27

I heard was, uh, you're, you're concerned about the pastoral care they might or might not be receiving?

01:52:33

Right, and just how to, you know, what might be some advice for just, you know, in that situation?

01:52:41

Yeah, well, uh, life's, uh, totally unexpected tragedies, uh, totally remove us from our comfort zone and force us back to our core beliefs.

01:52:55

And if our core beliefs, uh, have never been fully formed, we're going to, uh, be in trouble because we are going to be trying to form them at the same time that we are struggling, uh, literally against death.

01:53:10

And, um, that's why it's important to deal with this before that type of thing happens.

01:53:18

And of course, when you're talking about someone who's 30, everyone who's 30 figures they're going to live forever. And so, um, that's one of the, one of the problems.

01:53:27

I mean, uh, one of the wisest, uh, Psalms I, I know of is Psalm 90, you know, teach us to number our days and it's, it's better as the

01:53:37

Proverbs tell us to spend a day in the house of mourning than a day in the house of feasting, because that day in the house of mourning reminds each one of us that, um, that casket may have someone else in it right now, but someday it will have us in it.

01:53:53

And, um, I don't care what age you are. Uh, we all know that that could happen to any one of us at any time you get into a car and you're making yourself a possible statistic.

01:54:03

So having those, uh, that foundation should be something that any wise

01:54:10

Christian, even in their youngest years, uh, should be working on forming, even though obviously an aged believer is going to have much more time to build that foundation than someone else.

01:54:22

Um, the situation you describe is, is very challenging. It's very impossible.

01:54:28

Well, it's impossible for you long distance, uh, to provide the kind of, um, immediate support and presence, uh, that, uh, a sound church body would, would provide.

01:54:44

We can hope, um, that what you saw was the off example and that there's going to be others in the fellowship that have a more thoroughly biblical perspective on things.

01:54:58

Uh, you know, we can, we can hope for that, but, um, it, you know,

01:55:04

I don't know what to say, uh, other than to, uh, possibly provide, um, you know, and again, even now provide reading information is, uh, you know, if, if aggressive chemotherapy is coming up and stuff like that, people aren't going to be having the strength to be doing that kind of thing anyways.

01:55:25

Um, so just making yourself available, um, uh, to them, uh, when you hear, uh, statements made, not jumping on something, but trying to provide insights into God's purposes.

01:55:43

Um, you know, it really depends on how the treatment is going and then looking forward.

01:55:51

If the treatment doesn't go well, if there, if there is a passing of the individual, um, really trying to come alongside, uh, the spouse with the children and, and things like that, and just, uh, providing as much assistance as you can along those lines.

01:56:08

But all of that doesn't, doesn't sound like a whole lot because it's just a really, really, really difficult situation you've laid out there.

01:56:18

Have you seen my book on grieving? I, you know, I, I, I heard somebody had mentioned that you had one, but I haven't been able to find a copy of it.

01:56:27

Oh, it's generally available. It's available. If it's on Amazon, it's available. Uh, it's not a long thing.

01:56:32

It's not a huge tome. It's very practical. It's, it's meant for people about three to six months into the grieving process, but reading it ahead of time can sort of, uh, help prepare somebody, but it's not a theological tome.

01:56:46

If you want some theological tomes, the Puritans wrote some true theological tomes on preparation for both life and death.

01:56:54

So, uh, there's some things like that. Well, yeah, I'll probably go on Amazon then and check that out.

01:57:00

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry, I don't have anything more for you there, but that's a tough situation. We can, the greatest thing

01:57:05

I can say is I hope that what you saw when you were there, uh, is not representative of the final depth of assistance that can be provided by the local church.

01:57:16

Yeah, hopefully so. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Okay, great. Well, thank you so much. Thanks, John. Take care.

01:57:22

All right. God bless. Bye -bye. All right. Last call, full two hours. Josh, I'm about to, about to fall over here, so, uh, don't, don't give me anything too tough.

01:57:33

Hello, Josh. Hey, Dr. White, how are you? Yes, sir. Um, well, my question probably is a big one, so you may not want to answer it.

01:57:42

Um, I've been dealing with Muslims on PalTalk. PalTalk? Yeah.

01:57:47

You do realize that studies have shown that there is a four

01:57:53

IQ point drop for every hour spent on PalTalk, and it's irreversible.

01:57:58

I believe it, too. I believe it. It's irreversible. Um, the objection raised was in, in Exodus 6, you've got

01:58:08

God telling Moses that he had never revealed his name before Moses, and in Genesis 7, you've got

01:58:16

God saying to Abraham, I am Yahweh, who brought you from Ur of the

01:58:22

Chaldeans to give you this land to possess, and I couldn't find a good answer to that, because it is an apparent contradiction, and I couldn't find a good way to reconcile that.

01:58:34

I don't know if you've ever heard that objection. Yeah, I have. Maybe give a brief answer. Yeah, um,

01:58:43

I'm thinking that there might have been a discussion of this, uh, what was the, um,

01:59:01

Genesis reference? It was Genesis 15 -7. Because this generally, um,

01:59:14

I don't see, yeah, I don't see it there. I have, um, addressed this before.

01:59:22

I'm not sure where. I don't think there's necessarily a, um, video up on it.

01:59:30

Um, my recollection off the top of my head, and I'd, I'd really have to bring up both of the, of the texts at the same time.

01:59:40

Um, let me see here. Yeah, uh, Yahweh.

01:59:47

I mean, if it's just too big to answer, I can make you try another time. My recollection off the top of my head had to do with, uh, the nature of the covenant name, and the fact that, um, the, the covenant, um, it has something to do with the revelation of, of the name in that context.

02:00:07

But I, I would have to spend a little, little time on it, and, uh, I'll try to make a note to be able to do so.

02:00:14

If you, if you listen regularly, maybe I'll, I'll be able to get to it. Oh, absolutely. And, uh,

02:00:19

I just thank you so much for your ministry. It is, God has blessed me tremendously, um, through it.

02:00:25

So I'm one of the only people that the Muslims actually talk to on PalTalk, and that's due to watching you deal with it.

02:00:30

Well, I'm going to tell you something, um, anybody who can survive PalTalk is, uh, is a, is a very patient man, very patient, or just a little bit off the bubble too, one of the two.

02:00:41

Yeah, you got to be pretty, uh, stubborn. Yes, I think so. Um, but thank you so much. Thanks, Josh.

02:00:46

Have a good day. God bless. Bye -bye. All right. I'll take a, I'll make a note to try to get to that, uh, going to be gone the rest of the week.

02:00:57

Uh, don't know what that means as far as all the cavils and everything else, but, uh,

02:01:05

Lord willing, um, well, actually I'm going to be, uh, riding down a rather steep mountain a number of times.

02:01:12

So I may end up going right off, uh, right off and, uh, this could be it.

02:01:17

So you never know. Um, I, I just said, you never know. So, uh, you know,

02:01:22

I mean, I've climbed that mountain many, many times. I've gotten down it safely many, many times, but, uh, I think

02:01:28

I've given my guardian angel quite the workout in the process. So, uh, you can, you can hit some pretty interesting speeds on some of those turns.

02:01:35

Um, I'm sure you've driven up there before, so I'm not mentioning which mountain it is. So people, you know, don't know, but we'll, uh, we'll let y 'all know when to get back.

02:01:44

Anyways, thanks for watching the program today. Went over two hours in length. That should be enough for anybody.