Sitting in the Corner with Tom Buck

Greetings, welcome to The Dividing Line. My name's James White, and as you can tell, it's really hard to do like a reveal, or like, hey, we have a special guest, and you slide the camera over, something like that.

Can't do that when you discover that the new camera you're using really doesn't have a wide shot. So we're uncomfortably close in here. There's no toys about it. But my second live guest, you know who my first guest was in here?

No. Jason Lyle. Oh, man, I feel honored. Yeah, in Colorado Springs. And Jason sat right there, and we did the program. And, but my camera had a wider angle to it,.

So we're gonna. It's amazing that you're able to fit me in this thing. You got a crowbar to get me out, I'm telling you.

Well, yeah, I may be taking Tom Buck to Phoenix with me. So we'll see what happens when we get there. This is a window behind you, so maybe we could just sort of go out that way if we need to. But anyways, we're here in Lindale, Texas.

And so we just finished out at BMA Seminary in Jacksonville. And that's the second time. Second or third time? I think it's the third you've been there. Because I'm. I think maybe. Yeah. At least second.

I'm trying to. First time I spoke on John 8. I remember that. I don't know why I remember that, but I spoke on John chapter 8. And today I got to do a presentation. And it was live streamed. And so I assume it's gonna be on the website someplace or maybe Facebook for a while anyways, before they get rid of all this.

But I did a presentation, not explaining everything there is to know about CBGM, but to try to just basically bring everybody up to speed that there is such a thing as CBGM and how it has impacted the New Testament already.

We looked at Jude 5. We looked at Mark 1 .1. We talked about coherence. I could sit here and go, so Tom, what is, but I don't want to do that. I appreciate that. Because you're buying me dinner tonight.

So I'm not gonna do that. So we talked about the different kinds of coherence and through the website up on the screen and showed how you can use some of the materials. I mean, just showing it that it's there, not how to use it really.

But anyways, everybody seemed to enjoy it and seemed to find it to be a useful discussion. I think it's important for anyone who's doing New Testament work to know what's going on there. I mean, it's impacting the readings of our New Testament.

People need to know that it's not just some magic box, you know, that you shove the numbers in and out comes the answer. That's not how it works. But anyway, so we did that out in Jacksonville. And then last night, you lived dangerously last night.

Well, we did, very dangerously, right on the edge. Right on the edge, which I guess is just sort of what First Baptist Lyndale is known for. It's the on the edge church. Yes, that's one of the things we're called.

So you had me in to talk about New Testament reliability, but it was the one hour version, which is the super duper duper fast version. And it was the, how good is my balance version? It was. Because I had to use my computer, I didn't.

So you get to see, what's displayed back there normally when, because you all are redoing your worship center right now.

Right, so they've got a big screen back there. So we can normally see everything that's on that screen back there. But that's because our computer is plugged up. So we didn't have an extra cord to plug into that television.

And so you had to look behind you.

Whenever you wanted to see anything. It was not behind me, it was like this. That is true. And it was actually very difficult to read at that angle. It's very interesting. But my main concern was someone recording me falling off the stage would go absolutely viral on YouTube.

Yeah, we were recording, you never know.

The Muslims would have posted it and the Mormons. And they all would have used it as evidence that they're right.

Yeah, and Ergen Kander was only an hour away. So he might've come right on over. That's right, that's right.

So we did a new test of reliability. And then you really, you live on the dangerous side. The dangerous side. You all are doing a series on eschatology. And are you really making it up that you just simply could not find a post-millennialist?

Well, we didn't look. We didn't try real hard.

That's right, there you go, folks.

And then when we didn't have anybody on staff that was post-mill. So I said, James will be here. We weren't even gonna cover post-mill. We thought we'll just Oh, sure, yeah. We weren't. But I thought, well, we'll at least allow James to present the view that he's held for a couple of weeks.

Well, actually it was February. I know, it's been a little longer than that.

But I think it's good for folks to think through it. Some of our folks, I've heard a couple of people say that they think that's confusing. But I think there are good godly people, sound, doctrinally sound folks that hold different views, whether it be all mill, post-mill, pre-mill.

And I think if you can't hold your own view against someone else's view, then your view really wasn't that strong to begin with.

And you could end up going other directions if you don't understand how your view interacts with the other views.

Yeah, I think the most fascinating thing that you said last night, but I never really knew. And I'm sure I studied post-millennialism when I was at DTS. It was probably part of the 666 training that we received.

But it was when you talked about pre-mill and post-mill are different from all mill, and that they're similar to each other regarding how they perceive and understand the millennium, but different from one another on the timing.

And the all mills and the post-mill, because all millennialism is a subspecies of post-millennialism, because they're saying that the coming of Christ comes after the millennium, but they view the millennium as a completely different thing.

It's a spiritualized thing. So yeah, it is interesting. And that does cause a lot of confusion for folks. Yeah, so I thought that was really helpful.

But as I had always had a very, I mean, I still obviously don't hold to post-millennialism, but I had always had a Did you have to say obviously? Did I have to say obviously? Yeah, did you have to say obviously?

Well, I didn't have to say that. But I was, I found it so helpful at least. I want to always understand positions I even disagree with, because I want to represent them correctly, even if I am going, especially if I'm going to disagree with them.

I think the worst thing that we do is when we build straw men to tear them down, that doesn't help anybody. So I hope that our people did, were ministered to abide. And we have a couple of people in our church that are post-millennial.

So they were willing to admit it.

Well, yeah, and I enjoyed getting, that's the first time I've discussed it really fully outside of apologia. So that was neat. So we did that. And then you want to tell them what we did after that?

That might've been the best part of the whole thing, is I had, I have never seen with my eye the rings of Saturn, same pictures. And so James has talked a lot about, sorry, has talked a lot about It's the plug for the computer,.

So hopefully the battery will last.

His love for astronomy. And so he had a telescope with him and asked me if I wanted to come out and see it. And I said, absolutely. We came out, it was a perfect night for it. Nice clear night. And it was really neat.

Got to see Jupiter with I think four of the moons I got to see. And then you could see one ring at least clear around Saturn. It really was exciting to see that.

And yet, and I've told all sorts of people this, we can see pictures. I could bring pictures up here on this screen from up close and personal. I've got beautiful pictures. I've actually got a picture at home on the wall of Saturn and one of its moons and beautiful stuff.

But I didn't take that picture and I didn't actually see it. And when you're looking through a telescope and you see it for yourself and you have to use your eyes to focus it,.

It's just completely different. Yeah, I was in Florida a couple of weeks ago and took a picture of the sunset on the ocean and you never can capture with the camera what the eye, which again is just the amazing creation of God of what he has done that you can never quite capture what the eye can see.

And that's especially the truth.

Cause I wasn't, the unit that I have with me, the little telescope I have with me, it's only four and a half inches. It doesn't have any of the go-to stuff. And so being able to find things, I have to use other resources and conditions weren't perfect as far as lights all over the place.

There was that weird light that was flashing at us over there and stuff like that. But, so I didn't get to show really neat stuff like Albireo or Orion's Nebula and things like that. So there's still much more to see.

There really, really is. So sometime, like I said last night, we'll have to, I'll have to bring along one of my real scopes. You know, my eight inch mead or my 10 inch Orion and do a star show for the church.

And I would love that. I think we'd have a, we would have a great crowd. Might even be bigger than the crowd we had last night on the Bible.

Well, that would be really hard to do with one scope. Yeah, with one scope, that'd be tough to do. But anyways, so we had a good time and this is actually the last, I sort of, I guess I should apologize because you're getting me at the end of two weeks of speaking and traveling and driving and avoiding idiots on the roads.

And stuff like that. And not letting this idiot drive you around. I appreciate that.

I didn't say anything. I did not say that, but I did drive today. Yes, I did. We won't go into the details on that. No, Squirrel will say something about that. Yeah, he will, he will, yeah. But anyway, so you're getting the dregs because I don't speak anywhere after this.

It'll still take me, however, the amazing thing is I drive tomorrow, I drive the next day and I'll still be in Texas.

That's what's amazing. I mean, this is a huge state.

And then I go from Texas all the way home in one shot because I'm staying a quarter mile inside the border of Texas and where it goes underneath New Mexico. That's how I'm avoiding staying in New Mexico.

Because I really don't like New Mexico. I don't know if I put that on air yet.

Yeah, well, they might figure out where it is. Yeah, I suppose. But anyway, so this was it for me and this program. Well, I'm probably gonna do a dividing line. We'll try to do a dividing line either tomorrow or the next day from one of those locations.

Well, I may be with you. I got some butter so we can grease you up and get you out of here.

I'm not feeling comfortable being this close to you without a mask though.

Well, yeah, right. How long were we in the truck together at the same time? That's so much for that. But anyway, so we were also at G3 together. We were. And not like we saw each other much.

Yeah, it was very odd. We usually see each other at G3, didn't really at all.

Yeah, I was either nailed down to that table with all sorts of folks wanting to say hello or I was recording or I was speaking and that was, or driving back and forth because I didn't stay at the location.

So that changed the context of everything. But that was a big group.

It was, in fact, I personally think it was the best G3 I've been to. I don't know why I feel that, but I do. It was just a great atmosphere in every single session and the folks were excited to be there.

And it's been a while since folks have been able to get together and that might be part of it. But, and it was rather uneventful regarding all the COVID stuff. As long as you didn't go into the city where the mayor locks everything down, you could actually, it seemed quite normal.

Got kicked out of CNN. I got kicked out of the CNN building.

Really? For not having a mask. Oh, well, of course, of course, CNN. Yeah, that's their thing. Yeah, well, I didn't even go in there. I didn't, the first night I could barely get in because there was that football, soccer game.

Yes. And so they closed the roads that led to the parking structure. I couldn't get to the parking structure. We had to valet the truck and go through all this stuff for that Q &A that we had that first.

Well, they had a food court. That's why I went in,.

Because it was the only place it was open. Oh. One of the days when we were doing the workshop and I walked in and I mean, they were calling me like a duck on the June bug, telling me to get out of there.

That's amazing. Yeah, I just try to avoid places like that, but it's coming everywhere. But anyways, yeah, it was good. And we had a lot of good speakers. I think there was like one Presbyterian this year.

Joel Beekie. Joel Beekie. Yeah. I guess so. Yeah, I couldn't. So I don't think that was meant to be purposeful. I think it just sort of worked out that way. But there was, I think 6 ,400 registered people.

Yes, it was jam-packed. Yeah, it was.

It was. And so I really enjoyed it. But like I said, it didn't seem like I felt like I met as many of the other speakers and things like that, because I didn't go to the green room. The green room was like

It literally was like a mile away. Yeah, you literally had to take a car from the green room to where it's like, what? That was a little bit weird. But you did a thing on, but you did something one day before or two days before?

Well, I did a workshop two days before on 2 Timothy. Vodie and Conrad and I did that. And then I did a breakout section on Hebrews as a sermon and Christ-centered preaching. That's what I did.

And then right afterwards, you got together with Paul Washer, as I recall. That is true. Yeah, that's an interesting story.

You wanted me to tell that? Yeah, yeah, why not? It's self-effacing. It's good. So Paul Washer, we were gonna get together to talk some things about missions in our church and him helping us with that.

So he said, I'll drop by after your breakout session. And so that's fine. At the end of the session, people come up and they're talking to you. And so I had about 10 people in the line. I'm greeting each one of them.

And out of my peripheral vision, I noticed there's a large line to the right of me. And so in my mind, I'm like, well, I'll finish with these folks and then I'll turn over and talk to the other folks that was about twice as many people.

So as soon as I finished with the last person, I turned over to see the line wasn't for me. It was Paul Washer. He got there a little bit early. So everybody was in line to meet Paul. So I mean, the Lord has a way of humbling you, right?

A wonderful way of humbling.

He does, he does. That was one of the challenges we had was you can't stop. You just gotta keep walking. And if you stop, a line forms. And it's great and it's wonderful. And I can't tell you how many people talk to us about conversions and people coming to Christ and being delivered out of Roman Catholicism and Islam and one to Pentecostalism and everything else.

And it's exciting to get a chance to talk to those folks. But it's difficult to get from point A to point B. It really was. And of course I got interrupted again. That's true, you did. I am now starting.

I just wonder what it's gonna be next year. Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't understand. Though this year, we were trying to help a little kid get found. That's fine. But the creepy sound man that came up behind me and started playing with my belt while I was speaking.

Yeah, no, no, that's not how you're supposed to do things.

So anyway. I think it's a plot against you is what it is. I'm starting to wonder.

I think Josh Bice might have it out for me, I'm not sure. You know, Josh has one of these things. Oh, he does. I didn't know that. In fact, that's how he's gonna be decompressing. You and Josh and Jesus.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tom took a picture of me when I pulled up. We ate at a Mexican restaurant last night. So I pulled up and the first thing he sees is that my truck is a Texas edition.

Which I was quite proud of.

You were very impressed that I was driving a Texas edition truck. So you took a picture. And immediately people on Twitter started talking about how Jesus wouldn't drive a truck.

On their $1 ,000 smartphone. Yeah, right.

Yeah, yeah. And I haven't talked, I haven't seen if the guy responded to me, but I did write to one guy and basically said, well, brother, I've got a fifth wheel over here that weighs around 9 ,000, 8 ,000, 9 ,000 pounds, depending on how much stuff's in it.

And you're welcome to come over with your Prius and try to move it, but it'll pull the axles right off your vehicle. Your little batteries ain't gonna go very far with that. You sort of need something to be able to move it.

And to move it, in this case, 4 ,100 miles on this particular trip. So, yeah. But that's what you get on Twitter. That's what you get on Twitter. Well, that's also what you get in other contexts. So were you on with me?

What did we do at the convention?

The Southern Raps Convention? Yeah. Yeah, we did something after that. I think we did, I'm pretty sure we did. I was your first guest on your new studio. So that was, I did do that.

And was that at the time?

No, that was before that. I think we did a follow-up thing at the SVC because we talked a little bit about what happened.

With the election of Ed Litton. And of course that was before all the stuff came out. Yeah, yeah. And so there have been some things and lots of developments since the meeting. And where's the next meeting at?

Well, the next meeting is supposed to be in Anaheim. I just don't see how they're gonna hold it there. I mean, you know, LA has just recently said that you can't even go into a restaurant unless you have a vaccine card.

So I don't know. I know they desperately wanna do it there because that works at the benefit, I think, of the woke. But, and maybe it still will in the sense that it'll keep certain people away that don't wanna carry a vaccine card to go into a restaurant.

But it's gonna be really hard for them to try to hold a convention there. A lot can change from now in June, but a lot can get worse between now and June.

Yeah, because here's the article. Los Angeles passes one of the strictest U .S. COVID -19 vaccination mandates. Los Angeles City Council on October 6th approved one of the strictest COVID -19 vaccine mandates in the country requiring proof of vaccination under indoor restaurants, movie theaters, salons, shopping centers, and many more indoor venues.

People have to provide proof at gyms, sports arenas, museums, spas, indoor government facilities, malls, restaurants, and bars. For people with religious or medical exemptions, good luck getting those, negative COVID -19 tests within 72 hours of entry will be required according to the ordinance, which doesn't make mention of natural immunity offered by a previous COVID -19 infection.

So what we know is 13 to 27 of people have a negative COVID -19 test. You're at least 10 times more effective is if you got it and you've recovered from it. Doesn't count. Doesn't count. The level of irrationality is astonishing, but that's that issue.

I can't see that changing before next year. No, I don't either, not before June. And I don't see how they can have.

A successful convention there. I mean, most people are just not going to get on the plane. Depends on how you define success. You're right. But I mean, just your average person, and maybe that's what it will work towards against, is just not going to buy a plane ticket and fly out there to not be able to eat anywhere or whatever it may be.

And there are many, many people that are vaccinated, but there are many, many people that are just not going to. They've had it already and they don't feel the need to.

Well, it's not just feel the need to, it's dangerous. I mean, if you already have the antibodies and then you get vaccinated again, even Fauci, when he was asked a few weeks ago, why should they do that?

He's just like, well, you know, we're looking at the data on that. You're still mandating it. What do you mean you're looking at the data on that? People recognize that this is no longer, has anything to do with the virus, has nothing to do with health.

Oops, we shouldn't have said any of that. We'll get kicked off. Yeah, it's probably done. It's probably getting kicked off right now. So yeah, I had heard that Anaheim was coming up. Now that's, but this one is an in-between year.

It is, but it's a very odd in-between year in this sense. The question is normally the president, the sitting president, if he's only had one term, which is Drew Blitten, runs uncontested. He still has to be elected.

So yeah, he can't, he doesn't just get a two-year term. But what happens is they're just, I don't know of any time, I'm sure there probably has been, but I don't know of any time that one's been contested.

So the question is, will he run again? If he does run again, will it be contested? And then what will that look like? So it's not just a slam dunk in one sense, but it should be a shoe-in, if you will, under normal circumstances, but we're not under normal circumstances.

No, we saw at the last one that if you control the committees that determine the form of the resolutions and the presentation of resolutions, and then there's that one white-haired guy that I've seen for years now up there telling the president

The parliamentarian. Yeah, what to do. And well, not only that, but which microphone to go to. And I mean, this guy's running the show.

Yeah, Barry's a pretty good guy, most people think. In fact, the folks that are more woke don't really like Barry. In fact, they say that they're hoping he doesn't come back. But most people view Barry as very even-handed.

Now, at the same time, he is directing which mic, but I think he's told by somebody else. I'm not totally sure about that, and then he tells them. But I've always found Barry to be pretty even-handed.

But it just didn't seem like you could really expect a full-throated discussion in that context. No, that's part of the problem.

It is a well-oiled machine. It is a very planned out show. I'll put that in quotes. For a good, perfect example was what happens with the North American Mission Board. I and others were at the mic to ask some serious questions.

They see me at the mic for sure, and they've seen me before. And for some reason this year, I couldn't get one time, even though it was a mic multiple times. One time I was the first one up, and somehow it got around to other people.

But they had this long video, this long presentation. When I got to the mic, they said that there was a total of 15 minutes, that he would take seven minutes. He ended up taking like 13 minutes. And then a question from a guy across the room, and then when it came time for me, well, we're done, it really is sad.

There's not a way to really have good interaction. And what they're doing is they're pumping themselves up. Feel good about the NAM. Feel good about IMB. Feel good about all these things. Look at all we're doing.

And I'm sure some of it is true and wonderful, should be celebrated, but you can't conduct real business. You just can't.

I mean, you can't challenge things. That's, you know, what is the place for challenging what's going on in what seems to be the deep state of the Southern Baptist Convention that put someone like Russell Moore in the position he was in?

There are actually some people who have suggested that Russell Moore was a political operative.

Yeah, there was a guy that did that one time. One time, wasn't it? But it wasn't at a Southern Baptist thing. It was at a... No, it was at a pre-G3 thing that had happened, and nobody was willing to call out names with this one guy, and he addressed it, and been proven to be true.

Very, very true.

Very, very... Well, if you had known, if anybody paid attention to his history, his background, it was pretty obvious. But then what he had been doing, and now it seems, I had some interaction with this guy.

Maybe you remember his name. He was like one of the chief ethicists for the ERLC, and then he, right after, I mean, like the week after the election, went and goes to work for Ed Litton. If that's not the deep state sending its operatives over to operate things, and to continue controlling things, what else could it possibly be?

Now, I was told multiple times that, just be patient. Ed is going to fully repent, and is going to do a complete Maniculpa. And I mean, I was told this for a long, long time, just put your... Jets on idle.

Yep, jets on idle. Put your powder away. Just hold on. And I did for a long time. Most people don't realize that I said very little early on about this issue with Ed Litton.

You were busy talking about Kamala Harris.

Well, that was back in February, early before that. But thank you for bringing that up. So I've got a paper cut you can pour lemon juice into.

When you want to later. I try to keep you humble.

But I was holding off a lot because I kept being told he was going to, and I had hope for that. I really did. I prayed that he would do that. Early on, people were immediately piling on and mocking him and all of those things early into it.

And I even said publicly, that's not really a helpful way to bring someone to repentance early on in that. And so, rather than the memes, let's speak truth, call it out. But now he's really made himself a laughingstock.

So much so that Carl Truman even said that. If Carl Truman is saying, I think he's the last person to be bombastic on Twitter. And if he is coming out and saying that Ed Litton has made himself a laughingstock, what a black eye on the Southern Baptist Convention.

And I think it makes a laughingstock of every single entity head who has not spoken out and called for either, spoken out against what he did or called for his resignation. So you only have Jason Keith Allen, who is publicly, he was the first to come out and publicly address the plagiarism.

And then Al Mohler, when asked in chapel about it, gave a straightforward answer as far as the plagiarism goes. And then a group of elders from, I think it's Kinswood Baptist Church up in Kentucky, where two Southern Baptist Theological Seminary professors, Denny Burke and Jim Hamilton are elders.

And they released a letter a couple of weeks ago calling for Ed Litton's resignation. So the only seminary, anybody connected to the seminary that has called for his resignation are both from Southern Seminary.

Everybody else has been silent. Of course, Southwestern had him in and propped him out.

That was, it's one thing to be silent. It's another thing to actually provide some kind of a, what was that? Here, make an excuse and we won't challenge you on it type of a situation.

That was amazing. When it happened, I told someone when it was occurring, I said, I believe what's happening here is this is, they're using Southwestern Chapel as a clearing house for him. Give him the platform, let him defend it.

They didn't do anything of contradicting what he said, but allowed him to just get up and give a full-throated excuse. I wouldn't even say a defense. He just right out said, it's not plagiarism. And that they were doing that so that he could then feel free to roam around and preach at all the other seminaries.

And interestingly enough, I was right about that too. Because as soon as that happened, he was there, four of the seminaries, the only two that have not scheduled him to speak in chapel this fall or spring are Southern and Midwestern.

So all the others are having him in. So Gateway, New Orleans, Southwestern will have him back to preach and Southeastern. Gateway, yeah.

I once taught there. I have heard of that. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't called Gateway back then, but anyway. Yeah, so the future of the convention seems rather murky these days as far as how there can be a...

It just doesn't seem that the situation parallels what happened back in the 80s.

No, in fact, I'm probably more... I'm more uncertain about the SBC or maybe on the other side, more certain that it's not going to go well today than I was a year ago. Yeah. And it's very sad for me to see because I've been Southern Baptist my whole life.

And when I came, I had gone to Moody and DTS and one of the main reasons I did is, even though I was in Southern Baptist Church is this was in the late 80s, mid 80s and late 80s. I saw what was going on in the Southern Baptist schools.

I saw the liberalism. I grew up under a liberal Southern Baptist pastor who graduated from Southeastern during the height of its liberal days. And when I came out, I graduated in 1993 from DTS. I'm trying to decide at that point, am I going to stay in the Southern Baptist Convention?

I still was in it. I never belonged to any church other than Southern Baptist Church, even when I was in seminary, but am I going to pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention? And that was the very year that I'm graduating that Al Mohler goes to Southern.

And I'm extremely hopeful because I'm like this, yes, I want to go back. The Lord's given me a history for a good reason. I'm going to go back to the SBC and I'll feel comfortable doing that. And so I'm heartbroken to look and see of the change, but here's the difference between the 80s and now.

And one of the leaders of the conservative resurgence said this to me. He said, back in the 80s, we had the pulpits. So we didn't have the institutions, but you had the Adrian Rogers, the W .A. Criswells, the Charles Stanleys.

And there's things that we would differ with all three of those guys on in one degree or another. They were staunch conservatives regarding inerrancy and all of those other things. And they were from the pulpit preached these things.

Today, Southern Baptist pulpits are filled with woke young men. And so we not only have issues in the academy, we have issues in the pulpits. And so it's very different. Yeah.

Yeah. Most of the time that I get negative stuff, it's either Southeastern. Well, it's Southeastern, Southern, Boyce, New Orleans is where it's coming from. The students, you look them up, you click on their stuff and it's like, wow, they're really sold out to this type of stuff.

And it's sad. There's good men in every one of those institutions. There really are. I mean, there's good men at Southwestern whom I love and respect at Southeastern and Southern and Midwestern. I don't know many people at New Orleans.

Or Gateway. But it's not like they're all bad, theologically rotted out. In fact, I talk regularly with individuals at each of those institutions who are quite concerned about a variety of things and want things to turn as well.

But it's a machine. And that machine will run you over very, very quickly. They've wanted to run me over. They've tried to do that, some of the people. But I have just continued to speak what I believe to be true about these things.

But I think there's gonna be a mass exodus in the next year or so.

Now, your church is pretty large. I mean, you've got about a thousand members. Right. That's a lot of work. I mean, I'm not sure exactly where Apologia is, but certainly not that large. And I know that the three elders that are on staff, I'm the only elder that's not a paid staff person.

I've already got a ministry to be pursuing. I mean, they're busier than a one-armed paper hanger keeping up with stuff. I get the feeling, though, Apologia is significantly younger than your congregation.