Sitting in the Corner with Tom Buck

And greetings, welcome to The Dividing Line. My name's James White. And as you can tell, it's really hard to do like a reveal or like, hey, we have a special guest and you slide the camera over, something like that.

Can't do that when you discover that the new camera you're using really doesn't have a wide shot.

So we're uncomfortably close in here. There's no toys about it. But my second live, you know who the first, my first guest was in here?

No. Jason Lyle. Oh man, I feel honored. Yeah, in Colorado Springs. And Jason sat right there and we did the program.

And, but my camera had a wider angle to it. So we're gonna - It's amazing that you're able to fit me in this thing.

You got a crowbar to get me out, I'm telling you. Well, yeah, I may be taking Tom Buck to Phoenix with me.

So we'll see what happens when we get there. This is a window behind you. So maybe we could just sort of go out that way if we need to.

But anyways, we're here in Lyndale, Texas. And so we just finished out at BMA Seminary in Jacksonville.

And that's the second time, second or third time? I think it's the third you've been there,

I think maybe. At least second. I'm trying to, the first time I spoke on John 8,

I remember that. I don't know why I remember that, but I spoke on John chapter 8. And today I got to do a presentation and it was live streamed.

And so I assume it's gonna be on the website someplace or maybe Facebook for a while anyways, before they get rid of all of this.

But I did a presentation, not explaining everything there is to know about CBGM, but to try to just basically bring everybody up to speed that there is such a thing as CBGM and how it has impacted the

New Testament already. We looked at Jude 5, we looked at Mark 1 .1. We talked about coherence.

I could sit here and go, so Tom, what is, but I don't want to do that because you're buying me dinner tonight.

So I'm not gonna do that. So we talked about the different kinds of coherence and through the website up on the screen and showed how you can use some of the materials.

I mean, just showing it that it's there, not how to use it really. But anyways, everybody seemed to enjoy it and seemed to find it to be a useful discussion.

I think it's important for anyone who's doing New Testament work to know what's going on there.

I mean, it's impacting the readings of our New Testament. People need to know that it's not just some magic box, you know, that you shove the numbers in and out comes the answer.

That's not how it works. But anyway, so we did that out in Jacksonville.

And then last night, you lived dangerously last night. Well, we did, very dangerously, right on the edge.

Right on the edge, which I guess is just sort of what First Baptist Lyndale is known for. It's the on the edge church.

Yes, that's one of the things we're called. So you had me in to talk about New Testament reliability, but it was the one hour version, which is the super duper duper fast version.

And it was the, how good is my balance version? It was.

Because I had to use my computer, I didn't. So you get to see, what's displayed back there normally when, because you all are redoing your worship center right now.

Right, so they've got a big screen back there. So we can normally see everything that's on that screen back there.

But that's because our computer is plugged up. So we didn't have an extra cord to plug into that television.

And so you had to look behind you whenever you want to see. It was not behind me, it was like this. That is true.

And it was actually very difficult to read at that angle. It's very interesting. But my main concern was someone recording me falling off the stage would go absolutely viral on YouTube.

Yeah, we were recording, you never know. The Muslims would have posted it and the

Mormons. And they all would have used it as evidence that they're right. Yeah, and Ergen Kander was only an hour away.

So he might've come right on over. That's right, that's right. So we did a new test of reliability.

And then you really, you live on the dangerous side. The dangerous side.

You all are doing a series on eschatology. And are you really making it up that you just simply could not find a post -millennialist?

Well, we didn't look. We didn't try real hard. That's right, there you go, folks.

And then when we didn't have anybody on staff that was post -mill, so I said,

James will be here. We weren't even gonna cover post -mill. We thought we'll just, we weren't. But I thought, well, we'll at least allow

James to present the view that he's held for a couple of weeks. That's right. Well, actually it was

February. I know, it's been a little longer than that. But I think it's good for folks to think through it.

Some of our folks, I've heard a couple of people say that they think that's confusing. But I think there are good godly people, sound, doctrinally sound folks that hold different views, whether it be all mill, post -mill, pre -mill.

And I think if you can't hold your own view against someone else's view, then your view really wasn't that strong to begin with.

Well, yeah, and you could end up going other directions if you don't understand how your view interacts with the other views.

Yeah, I think the most fascinating thing that you said last night, but I never really knew. And I'm sure

I studied post -millennialism when I was at DTS. It was probably part of the 666 training that we received.

But it was when you talked about pre -mill and post -mill are different from all mill, that they're similar to each other regarding how they perceive and understand the millennium, but different from one another on the timing.

And the all mills and the post -mill, because all millennialism is a subspecies of post -millennialism, because they're saying that the coming price comes after the millennium, but they view the millennium as a completely different thing.

It's a spiritualized thing. So, yeah, it is interesting, and that does cause a lot of confusion for folks.

Yeah, so I thought that was really helpful, but I still obviously don't hold to post -millennialism, but I had always had a -

Did you have to say obviously? Did I have to say obviously? Yeah, did you have to say obviously? Well, I didn't have to say that.

But I found it so helpful, at least. I won't always understand positions

I even disagree with, because I want to represent them correctly, even if I am going, especially if I'm going to disagree with them.

I think the worst thing that we do is when we build straw men to tear them down. That doesn't help anybody.

So I hope that our people were ministered to abide, and we have a couple of people in our church that are post -millennial, so they were willing to admit it.

Well, yeah, and I enjoyed getting, that's the first time I've discussed it really fully outside of Apologia.

So that was neat. So we did that, and then, you want to tell them what we did after that?

That might've been the best part of the whole thing, is I have never seen with my eye the rings of Saturn, I've seen pictures.

And so James has talked a lot about, sorry, has talked a lot about -

It's the plug for the computer, so hopefully the battery will last. His love for astronomy.

And so he had a telescope with him and asked me if I wanted to come out and see it. And I said, absolutely.

We came out, it was a perfect night for it. Nice clear night. And it was really neat.

Got to see Jupiter with, I think, four of the moons I got to see. And then you could see one ring, at least clear around Saturn.

It really was exciting to see that. And yet, and I've told all sorts of people this, we can see pictures.

I could bring pictures up here on this screen from up close and personal. I've got beautiful pictures.

I've actually got a picture at home on the wall of Saturn and one of its moons and beautiful stuff.

But I didn't take that picture and I didn't actually see it. And when you're looking through a telescope and you see it for yourself and you have to use your eyes to focus it, it's just completely different.

Yeah, I was in Florida a couple of weeks ago and took a picture of the sunset on the ocean. And you never can capture with the camera what the eye, which again, is just the amazing creation of God, of what he has done that you can never, never quite capture what the eye can see.

And that's especially the truth. Because I wasn't, the unit that I have with me, the little telescope

I have with me, it's only four and a half inches. It doesn't have any of the go -to stuff. And so being able to find things,

I have to use other resources and conditions weren't perfect as far as lights all over the place.

There was that weird light that was flashing at us over there and stuff like that. But, so I didn't get to show really neat stuff like Albireo or Orion's Nebula and things like that.

So there's still much more to see. There really, really is. So sometime, like I said last night, we'll have to,

I'll have to bring along one of my real scopes, my eight inch Meade or my 10 inch

Orion and do a star show for the church. That would be - And I would love that.

I think we would have a great crowd. Might even be bigger than the crowd we had last night on the

Bible. Well, that would be really hard to do. Yeah, we had a good group. Yeah, with one scope, that'd be tough to do.

But anyways, so we had a good time and this is actually the last, I sort of,

I guess I should apologize because you're getting me at the end of two weeks of speaking and traveling and driving and avoiding idiots on the roads and stuff like that.

And not letting this idiot drive you around. I appreciate that. I didn't say anything. I did not say that, but I did drive today.

Yes, I did. We won't go into the details on that, but - Squirrel will say something about it.

Yeah, he will, he will. Yeah, but anyway, so you're getting the dregs because I don't speak anywhere after this.

It'll still take me, however, the amazing thing is I drive tomorrow, I drive the next day and I'll still be in Texas.

That's what's amazing. I mean, this is - It's a big state. It's a huge state. And then

I go from Texas all the way home in one shot because I'm staying a quarter mile inside the border of Texas and where it goes underneath New Mexico.

That's how I'm avoiding staying in New Mexico because I really don't like New Mexico. I don't know if I'd put that on air yet.

Yeah, well, they might figure out where it is. Yeah, I suppose. But anyway, so this was it for me and this program.

Well, I'm probably gonna do a dividing line. We'll try to do a dividing line either tomorrow or the next day from one of those locations.

Well, I may be with you. I got some butter so we can grease you up and get you out of here.

I'm not feeling comfortable being this close to you without a mask. Well, yeah, right. How long were we in the truck together at the same time?

That's so much for that. But anyway, so we were also at G3 together. We were.

And not like we saw each other much. Yeah, it was very odd. We usually see each other at G3, didn't really at all.

Yeah, I was either nailed down to that table with all sorts of folks wanting to say hello or I was recording or I was speaking and that was, or driving back and forth because I didn't stay at the location.

So that changed the context of everything. But that was a big group. It was, in fact,

I personally think it was the best G3 I've been to. I don't know why I feel that, but I do. It was just a great atmosphere in every single session and the folks were excited to be there.

And it's been a while since folks have been able to get together and that might be part of it. And it was rather uneventful regarding all the

COVID stuff. As long as you didn't go into the city where the mayor locks everything down, you could actually, it seemed quite normal.

Got kicked out of CNN. I got kicked out of the CNN building. Really? For not having a mask. Oh, well, of course, of course,

CNN. Yeah, that's their thing, yeah. Well, I didn't even go in there. I didn't, the first night

I could barely get in because there was that football, soccer game. Yes. And so they closed the roads that led to the parking structure.

I couldn't get to the parking structure. We had had to valet the truck and go through all this stuff for that Q &A that we had that first.

Well, they had a food court. That's why I went in, because it was the only place it was open. Oh. One of the days when we were doing the workshop and I walked in and I mean, they were calling me like a duck on the

June bug telling me to get out of there. That's amazing. Yeah, I just try to avoid places like that, but it's coming everywhere.

But anyways, yeah, it was good. And we had a lot of good speakers. I think there was like one

Presbyterian that was here. Joel Beekie. Joel Beekie. Yeah. I guess so.

Yeah, I couldn't. So I don't think that was meant to be purposeful.

I think it just sort of worked out that way. But there was, I think 6 ,400 registered people.

Yes, it was jam -packed. Yeah, it was. It was. And so I really enjoyed it.

But like I said, it didn't seem like I felt like I met as many of the other speakers and things like that, because I didn't go to the green room.

The green room was like - It was like a mile away. Yeah, you literally had to take a car from the green room to where it's like, what?

That was a little bit weird. But you did a thing on, but you did something one day before or two days before?

Well, I did a workshop two days before on 2 Timothy. Vodie and Conrad and I did that.

And then I did a breakout section on Hebrews as a sermon and Christ -centered preaching.

That's what I did. And then right afterwards, you got together with Paul Washer, as I recall.

That is true. Yeah, that's an interesting story. You want me to tell that? Yeah, yeah, why not?

It's self -effacing. It's good. So Paul Washer, we were going to get together to talk some things about missions in our church and him helping us with that.

So he said, I'll drop by after your breakout session.

And so that's fine. At the end of the session, people come up and they're talking to you. And so I had about 10 people in the line.

I'm greeting each one of them. And out of my peripheral vision, I noticed there's a large line to the right of me.

And so in my mind, I'm like, well, I'll finish with these folks and then

I'll turn over and talk to the other folks that was about twice as many people.

So as soon as I finished with the last person, I turned over to see the line wasn't for me. It was Paul Washer. He got there a little bit early.

So everybody was in line to meet Paul. So I mean, the Lord has a way of humbling me, right? A wonderful way of humbling.

He does, he does. That was one of the challenges we had was you can't stop.

You just gotta keep walking. And if you stop, a line forms. And it's great and it's wonderful. And I can't tell you how many people talked to us about conversions and people coming to Christ and being delivered out of Roman Catholicism and Islam and one that's

Pentecostalism and everything else. And it's exciting to get a chance to talk to those folks.

But it's difficult to get from point A to point B. It really was. And of course,

I got interrupted again. That's true, you did. I am now starting. I just wonder what it's gonna be next year.

Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't understand. Though this year, you know, we were trying to help a little kid get found. That's fine.

But the creepy sound man that came up behind me and started playing with my belt while I was speaking. Yeah, no, no, that's, no, that's not how you're supposed to do things.

So anyway. I think it's a plot against you is what it is. I'm starting to wonder. I think Josh Bice might have it out for me.

I'm not sure. You know, Josh has one of these things. Oh, he does.

I didn't know that. Oh, that's, in fact, that's how he's gonna be decompressing. You and Josh and Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We, Tom took a picture of me when I pulled up. We ate at a

Mexican restaurant last night. So I pulled up and the first thing he sees is that my truck is a

Texas edition. Which I was quite proud of. You were very impressed that I was driving a

Texas edition truck. So you took a picture. And immediately people on Twitter started talking about how

Jesus wouldn't drive a truck. So. On their $1 ,000 smartphone. Yeah, right.

Yeah, yeah. And I haven't talked, I haven't seen if the guy responded to me, but I did write to one guy and basically said, well, brother, you know,

I've got a fifth wheel over here that weighs, you know, around 9 ,000, eight, 9 ,000 pounds, depending on how much stuff's in it.

And you're welcome to come over with your Prius and try to move it, but it'll pull the axles right off your vehicle.

Your little batteries ain't gonna go very far with that. You sort of need something to be able to move it. And to move it, in this case, 4 ,100 miles on this particular trip.

So, yeah. But that's what you get on Twitter. That's what you get on, well, that's also what you get in other contexts.

So were you on with me at, what did we do at the convention?

The Southern Raps Convention? Yeah. Yeah, we did something after that.

I think we did, I'm pretty sure we did. I did your, I was your first guest on your new studio.

So that was, I did do that. And was that at the time? No, that was before that. I think we did a follow -up thing at the

SVC. Because we talked a little bit about what happened with the election of Ed Litton.

And of course, that was before. That was before all the stuff came out. All the stuff came out, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so there have been lots of developments since the meeting.

And where's the next meeting at? Well, the next meeting is supposed to be in Anaheim. I just don't see how they're gonna hold it there.

I mean, you know, LA has just recently Oh my goodness, yes. said that you can't even go into a restaurant unless you have vaccine cards.

So I don't know. I know they desperately wanna do it there because that works at the benefit,

I think, of the woke. But, and maybe it still will, in the sense that it'll keep certain people away that don't wanna carry a vaccine card to go into a restaurant.

But it's gonna be really hard for them to try to hold a convention there. A lot can change from now in June, but a lot can get worse between now and June.

Yeah, because here's the article. Los Angeles passes one of the strictest U .S. COVID -19 vaccination mandates.

Los Angeles City Council on October 6th approved one of the strictest COVID -19 vaccine mandates in the country requiring proof of vaccination to enter indoor restaurants, movie theaters, salons, shopping centers, and many more indoor venues.

People have to provide proof at gyms, sports arenas, museums, spas, indoor government facilities, malls, restaurants, and bars.

For people with religious or medical exemptions, good luck getting those, negative COVID -19 tests within 72 hours of entry will be required according to the ordinance, which doesn't make mention of natural immunity offered by a previous

COVID -19 infection. So what we know is 13 to 27 times more effective is that you got it and you've recovered from it.

Doesn't count, doesn't count. The level of irrationality is astonishing, but that's that issue.

I can't see that changing before next year. No, I don't either, not before June.

And I don't see how they can have a successful convention there. I mean, most people are just not going to get on the plane.

Depends on how you define success. You're right. But I mean, just your average person, and maybe that's what it will work towards against, is just not going to buy a plane ticket and fly out there to not be able to eat anywhere or whatever it may be.

And, you know, there are many, many people that are vaccinated, but there are many, many people that are just not going to.

They've had it already and they don't feel the need to. Well, it's not just feel the need to. It's dangerous.

I mean, if you already have the antibodies and then you get vaccinated again, even Fauci, when he was asked two weeks ago, why should they do that?

He's just like, well, you know, we're looking at the data on that. You're still mandating it.

What do you mean you're looking at the data on that? People recognize that this no longer has anything to do with the virus, has nothing to do with health.

Oops, we shouldn't have said any of that. We'll get kicked off. Yeah, it's probably done. It's probably getting kicked off right now.

So yeah, I had heard that Anaheim was coming up. Now that's, but this one is an in -between year.

It is, but it's a very odd in -between year in this sense. The question is normally the president, the sitting president, if he's only had one term, which is

Drew Blitten, runs uncontested. He still has to be elected. So yeah, he can't, he doesn't just get a two -year term.

But what happens is they're just, I don't know of any time, I'm sure there probably has been, but I don't know of any time that one's been contested.

So the question is, will he run again? If he does run again, will he be contested?

And then what will that look like? So it's not just a slam dunk in one sense, but it should be a shoo -in, if you will, under normal circumstances, but we're not under normal circumstances.

No, we saw at the last one that if you control the committees that determine the form of the resolutions and the presentation of the resolutions, and then there's that one white -haired guy that I've seen for years now up there telling the president.

The parliamentarian. Yeah, what to do. And well, not only that, but which microphone to go to.

And I mean, this guy's running the show. Yeah, Barry's a pretty good guy, most people think. In fact, the folks that are more woke don't really like Barry.

In fact, they say that they're hoping he doesn't come back. But most people view

Barry as very even -handed. Now, at the same time, he is directing which mic, but I think he's told by somebody else.

I'm not totally sure about that, and then he tells them. But I've always found Barry to be pretty even -handed.

But it just didn't seem like you could really expect a full -throated discussion in that context.

No, that's part of the problem. It is a well -oiled machine.

It is a very planned out show. I'll put that in quotes.

For a good, perfect example was what happens with the North American Mission Board. I and others were at the mic to ask some serious questions.

They see me at the mic for sure, and they've seen me before. And for some reason this year, I couldn't get one time, even though it was the mic multiple times.

One time, I was the first one up, and somehow it got around to other people.

But they had this long video, this long presentation. When I got to the mic, they said that there was a total of 15 minutes, that he would take seven minutes.

He ended up taking like 13 minutes. And then a question from a guy across the room, and then when it came time for me, well, we're done.

It really is sad. There's not a way to really have good interaction. And what they're doing is they're pumping themselves up.

Feel good about the NAM. Feel good about IMB. Feel good about all these things. Look at all we're doing. And I'm sure some of it is true and wonderful, should be celebrated, but you can't conduct real business.

You just can't. You can't challenge things. That's, you know, what is the place for challenging what's going on in what seems to be the deep state of the

Southern Baptist Convention that put someone like Russell Moore in the position he was in? There are actually some people who have suggested that Russell Moore was a political operative.

Yeah, there was a guy that did that one time. One time, wasn't it? But it wasn't a Southern Baptist thing. It was at a...

No, it was at a pre -G3 thing that had happened, and nobody was willing to call out names with this one guy, and he addressed it, and been proven to be true.

Very, very true. Well, if you had known, if anybody paid attention to his history, his background, it was pretty obvious.

But then what he had been doing, and now it seems, I had some interaction with this guy.

Maybe you remember his name. He was like one of the chief ethicists for the

ERLC, and then he, right after, I mean, like the week after the election, goes to work for Ed Litton.

If that's not the deep state sending its operatives over to operate things, and to continue controlling things, what else could it possibly be?

Now, I was told multiple times that, just be patient. Ed is going to fully repent, and is going to do a complete

Maniculpa. And I mean, I was told this for a long, long time, just, you know, put your -

Jets on idle. Yep, jets on idle. Put your powder away. Just hold on.

And, you know, I did for a long time. Most people don't realize that I said very little early on about this issue with Ed Litton.

You were busy talking about Kamala Harris. Well, that was back in February, early before that. But thank you for bringing that up.

So I've got a paper cut you can pour lemon juice into when you want to later. I try to keep you humble.

But the, I was holding off a lot because I kept being told he was going to, and I had hope for that.

I really did. I prayed that he would do that. Early on, people were immediately piling on and mocking him and all of those things early into it.

And I even said publicly, you know, that's not really a helpful way to bring someone to repentance early on in that.

And so, you know, rather than the memes, let's speak truth, call it out. But now he's really made himself a laughing stock.

So much so that Carl Truman even said that, you know, if Carl Truman is saying, you know,

I think he's the last person to be bombastic on Twitter. And if he is coming out and saying that Ed Litton has made himself a laughing stock, you know, what a black eye on the

Southern Baptist Convention and I think it makes a laughing stock of every single entity head who has not spoken out and called for either, spoken out against what he did or called for his resignation.

So you only have Jason Keith Allen, who is publicly, he was the first to come out and publicly address the plagiarism.

And then Al Mohler, when asked in chapel about it, gave a straightforward answer as far as the plagiarism goes.

And then a group of elders from, I think it's Kinswood Baptist Church up in Kentucky, where two

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary professors, Denny Burke and Jim Hamilton are elders.

And they released a letter a couple of weeks ago calling for Ed Litton's resignation. So the only seminary, anybody connected to the seminary that has called for his resignation are both from Southern Seminary.

Everybody else has been silent. Of course, Southwestern had him in and propped him out. That was, it's one thing to be silent.

It's another thing to actually provide some kind of a, what was that?

Here, make an excuse and we won't challenge you on it type of a situation. That was amazing.

When it happened, I told someone when it was occurring, I said, I believe what's happening here is this is, they're using

Southwestern Chapel as a clearing house for him. Give him the platform, let him defend it.

They didn't do anything of contradicting what he said, but allowed him to just get up and give a full -throated excuse.

I wouldn't even say a defense. He just right out said, it's not plagiarism. And that they were doing that so that he could then feel free to roam around and preach at all the other seminaries.

And interestingly enough, I was right about that too. Because as soon as that happened, he was there.

Four of the seminaries, the only two that have not scheduled him to speak in chapel this fall or spring are

Southern and Midwestern. So all the others are having him in. So Gateway, New Orleans, Southwestern will have him back to preach and Southeastern.

Gateway, yeah. I once taught there. I have heard of that.

Yeah, yeah. It wasn't called Gateway back then, but anyway. Yeah, so the future of the convention seems rather murky these days as far as how there can be a...

It just doesn't seem that the situation parallels what happened back in the 80s.

No, in fact, I'm probably more... I'm more uncertain about the

SBC or maybe on the other side, more certain that it's not gonna go well today than I was a year ago.

Yeah. And it's very sad for me to see because I've been

Southern Baptist my whole life. And when I came, I had gone to Moody and DTS.

And one of the main reasons I did is, even though I was in Southern Baptist Church is this was in the late 80s, mid 80s and late 80s.

I saw what was going on in the Southern Baptist schools. I saw the liberalism. I grew up under a liberal Southern Baptist pastor who graduated from Southeastern during the height of its liberal days.

And when I came out, I graduated in 1993 from DTS. I'm trying to decide at that point, am

I gonna stay in the Southern Baptist Convention? I still was in it. I never belonged to any church other than the

Southern Baptist Church, even when I was in seminary. But am I gonna pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention? And that was the very year that I'm graduating that Al Mohler goes to Southern.

And I'm extremely hopeful because I'm like this. Yes, I wanna go back. The Lord's given me a history for a good reason.

I'm gonna go back to the SBC and I'll feel comfortable doing that. And so I'm heartbroken to look and see of the change, but here's the difference between the 80s and now.

And one of the leaders of the conservative resurgence said this to me. He said, back in the 80s, we had the pulpits.

So we didn't have the institutions, but you had the

Adrian Rogers, the W .A. Criswells, the Charles Stanleys. And there's things that we would differ with all three of those guys on in one degree or another.

They were staunch conservatives regarding inerrancy and all of those other things. And they were from the pulpit preached these things.

Today, Southern Baptist pulpits are filled with woke young men. And so we not only have issues in the academy, we have issues in the pulpits.

And so it's very different. Yeah. Yeah, most of the time that I get negative stuff, it's either

Southeastern. Well, it's Southeastern, Southern, Boyce, New Orleans is where it's coming from.

The students, you look them up, you click on their stuff, and it's like, wow, they're really sold out to this type of stuff.

And it's sad. There's good men in every one of those institutions. There really are. I mean, there's good men at Southwestern whom

I love and respect at Southeastern and Southern and Midwestern. I don't know many people at New Orleans.

Or Gateway. But it's not like they're all bad, theologically rotted out.

In fact, I talk regularly with individuals at each of those institutions who are quite concerned about a variety of things and want things to turn as well.

But it's a machine. And that machine will run you over very, very quickly.

They've wanted to run me over. They've tried to do that, some of the people. But I have just continued to speak what

I believe to be true about these things. But I think there's gonna be a mass exodus in the next year or so.

Now, your church is pretty large. I mean, you've got about 1 ,000 members.

Right. That's a lot of work. I mean, I'm not sure exactly where Apologia is, but it's certainly not that large.

And I know that the three elders that are on staff,

I'm the only elder that's not a paid staff person. I've already got a ministry to be pursuing.

I mean, they're busy in a one -armed paper hanger keeping up with stuff. I get the feeling, though,

Apologia is significantly younger than your congregation.

What would you say your median age is? Well, we have a lot of young folks, but I would say that our median age of those who are able to faithfully attend probably is about 40 years old, but I'm sure yours is much younger than that.

Well, I mean, the births per week sometimes is amazing.

I mean, we've just got kids all over the place. And it is, for Kelly and I, it's been really interesting because, well,

I should be very careful how I put this. I am one of the older people in the congregation.

See, I said that. And so there's an energy that comes from that because so many other people are so much younger than you are, but also then it's the reverse is you have a maturity to offer for the young people.

And every congregation is different and we're out there in Arizona where, and I was in Cajun country before I came here and it was mentioned to me.

So many of these people have deep, deep, deep roots here going way, way, way, way, way, way back. And I'm not sure if Texas, because of all the influx of outsiders is changing, but there is no, there is up in places like Prescott, Payson, you might have cultural

Arizonans, but Phoenix, nobody there knows their neighbors. They don't, nobody's from there.

I mean, my wife is, but no one's really from there in that sense. And that impacts how the churches think and behave as well.

Are they out looking? Are they looking out beyond where they are?

There's a danger, I think, for in some contexts, for churches to become very comfortable in let's just stay the way we are.

I can think of one situation in my life where I knew someone close to me that found themselves pastoring a church and all of a sudden discovered these folks do not want to grow.

They do not want to bring new people in. They are perfectly happy the way things are. And that leads to death eventually, obviously.

But you're in fairly rural Texas. I mean, this isn't, it's not the

Outback someplace. I mean, Tyler's a fairly decent sized city we just drove through. But still a lot of folks here have deep family roots.

Oh, no doubt. And that can impact the outlook of the church as to how it's going to deal with missions.

And it's one thing to support missionaries. It's another thing to be doing missions work and things like that.

Every church is different. You can't, I'm not into the cookie cutter stuff. If you're at Apologia, you can't be in the cookie cutter stuff because we're pretty unique along those lines.

But I think it's one of the hard things about having conventions and things like that is that you have so many different kinds of churches.

I mean, we met the young fellow. Do you remember? Sorry, it's the end of a long trip.

But the young fellow from New York City that's in the SBC. Yeah, right.

That made the big splash. If you want a church that isn't woke and so on and so forth. And all the people are like,

I just can't believe that people like this exist. And that was the best advertising that's ever been done for them.

But there's an example of, that's, in New York City, you've got to be very different than in Northern Louisiana.

Right. You can't just do a cookie cutter type thing. So how do you try to keep your people from getting accustomed to just coming on Sundays and just doing the same old thing?

Well, we are extremely blessed. I really mean that. Our folks are always wanting to reach folks.

Our folks are not just giving the missions. They're actually doing missions, whether it's going overseas or it's being involved locally as well as internationally.

We had 54 people just come to our new membership class that we just did. And the stunning thing to me is -

Are they from the local area or are they transplants? A few of them are transplants. So a couple of them, a couple of the families have come in, have come from Oregon near Portland.

Same with apology. There is, I don't, there may not be anybody left in Western Oregon pretty soon.

Nobody normal. Well, yeah, only the zombies are going to be left there. But we've new members.

It's fascinating to see where people are coming from. And so many are like, we're getting out of here. We have to, it's just, it's gone insane.

But the reason I was asking is Texas and Florida are obviously the two states that are being the primary recipients of, what would we call it?

COVID crush, who knows, whatever. I'm just concerned because Arizona has been deeply influenced by, has been deeply impacted by a number of Californians that are out there.

And they're bringing their politics with them. So we're a purple state now. We used to be deep red. And I'm just, we need

Texas and Florida to stand firm. Yeah, there's no doubt of that. I mean, it's something that we, we're concerned with as well, especially if you're in the

Austin, Houston, Dallas area. They were already blue and now they're deep, deep blue.

But yeah, it's odd to me that people would flee from someplace and bring the very things with them that caused the place to collapse in the first place.

I don't understand that. But let me just say one thing about, when you and I were talking about this a little bit earlier, but that I love about our church.

And I think, I honestly think most Southern Baptist churches are like this. Most churches, if they love the

Lord, if they're preaching the word, they're not what we get painted out to be regarding being a bunch of bigots, a bunch of racist people.

And the amazing thing with our church, since we have talked about and fought against the issues of worldly ideology of social justice, because you and I both are for justice in society from a biblical viewpoint, but the woke social justice stuff, we've actually grown in folks of different ethnicities have come to join our church.

We had a couple just this last week join, and we're just talking about how wonderfully accepted they felt coming to our church.

And I'm sitting there going, this is not what gets painted. I guarantee you that people on the internet think that my church is probably 100 % white, and that we are at, that if we saw anybody come in, that even had a pigmentation just a little bit darker, that they would be frowned upon and kicked out.

And it's just not true. And I have never experienced that kind of atmosphere in any church

I've pastored or any church I've been in. All of this stuff that they're doing to divide, our culture is also being brought into the church to divide the church and to turn us against one another.

It's just stunning to me. It is, and it's sad to see, obviously, but we're dealing with a fully controlled media.

It's a narrative that's being presented. It's not meant to actually represent what the truth is. And I've just never been in churches that would fit most of the stereotypes that are out there.

There may be some there, I mean, but they ain't inviting me in. So not gonna be going there.

So anyway, so what do you see? People will ask me once in a while, so I'll put you on the spot because I know how

I'd answer this, but what do you see five years down the road? I mean, you've got a fairly large congregation, fairly large facility there.

You've got to make plans. I don't know how to make plans right now. I mean,

I don't know how to, people say, well, would you come and speak in 2021 at our conference?

And my answer always is, if I'm allowed to, if the borders are open,

I'm laying out now if I can get there by driving, but I honestly can't answer that question six months down the road.

What if they, and it's absolutely do this.

What if they connect your financial, your ability to spend money to use a credit card to your vaccine status?

I mean, it could be done tomorrow, technologically speaking. I have a question about it. And so what if they do that?

I don't know. Well, I think two things for me, one, make hay while you can. Oh yeah. And be busy about doing, take advantage of every opportunity the

Lord gives you now. And there is, I've actually used this verse for years, but it's never been more appropriate or more on my mind when

Jesus said that each day has enough trouble of its own. And I just try to remind myself that each day, as I look, try to look three or four days down the road to say, you know what?

Each day has enough trouble of its own. Let me be busy about doing what I can do now for the Lord. And we'll see what tomorrow brings.

Now, I don't mean that we don't think of standing up against the things because of what could happen, but we can only do so much.

I think one of the biggest things is to persuade people that there really is an issue. And that, so I'm sitting and having a dinner with a

Christian friend, not in this area. I was actually out of town. And they shared with me how that they had never dreamed that a year ago that they would comply to getting a vaccine.

Their work demanded they get it. If they didn't get it, they would be fired. But they told them that if they did get it, they wouldn't have to wear a mask.

Then two weeks after they got the vaccine, they had to mask as well. Not by the state, but by the business.

And we know why. Yeah. And in the conversation, one of the things that was said is

I just want to be able to enjoy my grandchildren. Basically, people are complying because they're like, okay, you promised me

I can be free if I comply. So I'm willing to give up more and more freedom to be free.

It's uncanny. It's amazing. Highly effective. Yeah, it really is.

So they're saying to you, hey, we'll let you be free if you will give up your freedom in this area.

You give up your freedom in that area, and then they take away a little more freedom. We're not making this stuff out.

It's happening. And people just, I don't understand the mindset where people just continue.

I saw this. They continue to trust. They continue to believe what these people are saying, even though they have the worst track record on the planet.

I mean, Fauci. You literally have people worshiping this guy. Tucker Carlson did a -

Bobbleheads. Bobbleheads. Signs in yards.

Thank God for Dr. Fauci and all the rest of this type of stuff. And yet, February of 2020, leaked emails.

Someone writes to him and says, so you think I should wear a mask? And he's like, they're worthless.

They don't do anything. And then even before, in 2019, video comes out of, if there is a pandemic in the future, should we immediately put masks on?

I said, hey, you don't wanna look like you're paranoid. And people make excuses that, well, the science, the science hasn't changed.

The science has actually confirmed all of that. He was right when he told that person, don't worry about the drugstore mask.

It ain't gonna do you any good. He was right about that. And now it's like second year, well, we might not be able to gather for Christmas.

He was either an incompetent buffoon back when he told us that you shouldn't wear masks, don't need to worry about.

Or he is now. Or he is, well, I'm not sure he's a buffoon. I think he's a Palpatine maybe, but he's not a buffoon.

Did you see the - Palpatine, Fauci, I think similar families. Similar family names, yeah.

Did you see the prayer candles with his picture on them? Yes, yes. That was interesting. There's a certain amount of self -worship to have those up your alley.

I'm sure he would say that someone had them sent to him and everything else, but you still have it in your office.

Oh, they go in the trash can with me when they, I mean. Yeah, it's just very, very, very odd.

Yeah, but something has definitely happened. And I personally trace it back to secularism.

Secularism is a dehumanizing worldview. And it's a demasculating worldview and a defeminizing worldview.

And so it just seems to me that I see so many people that once you embrace the secular mindset, there's nothing after this life.

So it's easy to frighten people. Right. Because the only thing they've got is this life.

There's nothing more important than that. There's nothing that goes away. There's nothing that goes beyond that. And so I don't even know how you get people to do military stuff these days.

Because why would you? Why would you ever volunteer? It's an all -volunteer force. Why would you even do that from a secular perspective?

I always think back to the pictures that we have. And then of course the movies that we've made from D -Day.

And sitting in those landing craft. And they were sitting ducks out there.

A lot of those landing crafts, the German 88s just zeroed right in on them and just blew them out of the water right there.

Absolutely no survivor. They're just blown to pieces. And then as soon as they dropped that front ramp, there'd be bullets just all around you.

How anyone survived that day, I really don't have any idea. But what motivates me as people was

I'm doing this for others. I'm doing this for somebody that's bigger than me. In a secular worldview, you know at the bottom, you may pretend and your professor at your university may say there's something bigger than you in social justice or something like that.

But you know at the bottom that once you stop fizzing, that's it. There's nothing beyond that.

And - Eat, drink and be merry. Tomorrow we die. That's exactly right. And, but at least back then, eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, there was still some kind of a concept of some value to human life.

When once you've dragged it down to where a sea sludge and human life are pretty much the exact same thing.

There's cosmically, I debated an atheist once called Dan Barker.

I don't know if you've ever seen a debate set up with Dan Barker. But he's a former Christian, he's apostate. And very proud to be a part of Mensa and a concert pianist.

Bright guy, but just hates God. And he used the phrase, and I used it in my debate against him.

He says, we're cosmic broccoli. We're cosmic broccoli. And broccoli has no inherent long -term worth.

And I remember catching him. He struggled to answer this question. He's debated,

I've debated him. Doug Wilson debated him. He's debated a lot of different folks.

And I asked, I knew he was a concert pianist. And so I knew he was very, very good at that.

And so I asked him if his music would still be objectively beautiful after he dies.

And you could just see the struggling in his mind.

Because there's a part of him that realizes, yeah, you know, those incredible tunes by Bach that haunt us to this day will still be beautiful when he stopped fizzing.

And when he's played that, a recording of that is still beautiful after he's gone. That means there's something more than what he thinks there is in this world.

But his world just doesn't allow for it. And so he has to, it's sad to see an intellect like that.

So in his case, I'll be honest, from a biblical perspective, so much under the judgment of God.

I don't know what light he sinned against in his past. I have no earthly idea.

But to see an intellect like that trying so hard to come up with some way of denying its own nature.

And so that's why it's one of the things that makes it difficult for me to look into the future.

We can look at what the Soviets did. Because we're dealing with communism in our own land now. And our people don't realize it because they don't do history.

It's one thing to look back at the Soviets and what they did, but they did not have the technology that we have today.

And so we can't rely upon the tried and true methods of old of meeting in a grove of trees out in the forest for church because now you have drones and satellites.

And so making plans for the future. At the same time, I have to go, all right, but I owe you of little faith.

You don't think that the spirit of God can give wisdom to your people, to the people of God to know how to handle these things.

But right now, it's really one of those situations like, yeah, you'll be given that wisdom at the time that you need it and not before.

Because I'm sitting here going, I can see so many scenarios where you cannot meet with your people.

They can control the horizontal and the vertical. And I don't know how to handle all those things.

So you pray for deliverance. I've always prayed for deliverance from evil men and women, but that's an expression of God's prescriptive will.

The fact of the matter is God's people have been put under the control of evil men and women many times in the past.

And you see what the left is doing today with abortion. Oh my goodness, the culture of death.

I will admit one thing. I have a much clearer understanding of the connectedness, for example, between the

LGBTQ movement and Planned Parenthood than I've ever had before. And the fact that that is all a function of the culture of death, that they are twins.

And I wouldn't have seen that in the 80s. I wouldn't have seen that in the 90s. We were in a position where we were in so much neutrality with the world.

The state wasn't, we didn't care about the state. I mean, outside of filing your taxes, you really didn't give them much of a thought.

Now they want to tell you, you can't sing and you can't have the Lord's Supper. Well, and we're compliant in many cases.

And I think that there's such an anemic theology or the theology is anemic regarding how we relate to the state.

We're going to have to help our people understand those things. So let's just look at, Canada is a perfect example. I have multiple pastors that I know in Canada who are not standing with guys like James Coates and others that are defying tyranny there and are not standing using

Romans 13 and 1 Peter 3 as a rationale for why they cannot do that.

That those passages mean to just absolutely, completely follow along with the authority.

We understand spheres of authority when it comes to husbands in the home.

I mean, these same pastors, and they do these, I know these pastors, some of them personally enough that if a wife came in and said, my husband is telling me this and treating me in this way, that they would say, well, that's not in his sphere of authority to control you in that way.

And you don't have to submit to that tyrannical rule of a husband. We understand that in the church.

There are verses that say that they're supposed, my members are supposed to obey their leaders, right? But is there a line which

I can cross as a pastor that becomes tyrannical, that becomes cultish, that would not obligate my church members to just follow along with it?

Of course there are. Why do we get that in those realms of authority? We don't get that in the government?

I don't understand. Oh, it's because we have lived under its authority for so long and didn't feel threatened by it.

I was raised to be very patriotic, but very respectful to the flag, respectful to the nation.

And this is a nation that won World War II and all the rest of that stuff.

And we've missed the biblical fact that any government is a conglomeration of fallen men.

And when they decide to join together to express their rebellion against God, and that's what these people are doing.

I mean, LGBTQ +, Planned Parenthood, abortion, these are their moral goods.

And it just seems like, I've been saying for a long time, it seems like God is withdrawing his hand of restraint.

And we're now seeing things that we could never have imagined in 1990.

And whether intentional or unintentional, and I think that it really doesn't matter at this point to one degree or another, but we take like the

Earl C. And when Russell Moore was there, I don't know if you remember this, but it's probably been about six or seven years ago, maybe more than that, that he was celebrating that we're not

Mayberry anymore. You may remember that Doug Wilson wrote an article about that. And he was decrying the

Bible Belt, cultural Christianity, which both you and I, when it comes to cultural Christianity, were pulsed by a lot of the things that are produced out of that.

But to celebrate secularism taking over as a means by which, hey, this is great opportunity.

Well, I'm not so sure that the way he went about talking about those things were helpful, but a lot of young pastors who had a strong distaste for cultural

Christianity. And I understand that because I do too. I grew up in it. I understand having a distaste for it. They weren't really thinking deeply about the things that Russell Moore and others were saying regarding that.

And they just bought it wholesale. This is great. This is what a wonderful mission field we can have.

Well, you can have a mission field. There's a wonderful mission field in cultural Christianity too, in both sides.

The question is, which worldview would you rather live in to go out and proclaim the gospel and call people to repentance?

And so, the Lord may turn us over to secularism, but I certainly don't want to hand the keys over to them and say, hey, this is wonderful, let's do it.

Yeah. Well, secularism will destroy itself, but the only question is, how long will that process of destruction be and how devastating will it be to the world as a whole?

That's the only question I have. No society that cannot tell the difference between a boy and a girl and will not allow for the family to exist can possibly exist for any length of period of time at all.

And it goes all the way up to our president. It does. Well, right now - Boy and girl.

I know, I know. He himself has talked about what is the eight -year -old boy that says he has a right to live as a girl or whatever it was he said in that.

I'm convinced that, I just don't believe that the man is fully functional and therefore,

I think that's representing other people who are much more of a shadow. I don't see him as being much involved in making decisions.

I really don't. When you listen to him talking off -script, it's just like this.

There's nothing there. And so, who's really running this country is the question.

But we can't get into that, right? Believe it or not, we've been on for an hour. Have we really? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. I'm sure people are ready to turn us off.

At least we are. But so, second guest in, so what do you think of the digs here?

I love it. I'm glad that you have this ability to travel like this.

And I loved hearing you talk about the opportunities it's giving you that you didn't have before with flying.

So, the Lord has been good to you and I'm thankful that he has because we need your voice out there.

Thankful for your voice. Well, thank you for being one of those churches that allows me to come in and you're on, there are evidently,

I had never really looked at it, but you've got the 10 all down the bottom. You got the 20 that sort of goes up that way and you got the 40 go in this direction.

And that's through most of the red states, which is about the only places I think I'm gonna be able to be going. So, we'll be going back and forth.

The folks in Louisiana, for example, were saying, hey, would you do some Roman Catholic debates down here?

That's the big thing down here. And I'm like, go for it, yay. And so, what's the big thing around here?

Barbecue. So, we're gonna have a debate on barbecue. Well, you and I could have a debate on barbecue because I'm not a real big barbecue person.

What we had today was good. Yeah, it was good. That potato, I'm a little concerned about that potato because if it's that big, there's probably radiation around.

There may be, but what's it matter anymore? It's almost the end anymore. You and I are pretty old anyways, but I'm much, much older than you are.

Well, around here, it's just, we're kind of insulated, if you will, from the rest of what's going on in the world.

It's gonna be shocking when it shows up to our folks. Our school system, we have a really good,

I mean, our school board has six members on it. Five are members of First Baptist Church.

So - So, no CRT yet. No, no. So, I mean, we're really blessed.

We're insulated, and I'm thankful for that. We have a really good, if you have to put your kids somewhere in a public school system, where we are in Lindale is one of the best.

I mean, numerous teachers in our church that are believers, the principal's a strong believer, and I mean, sincerely is, not just one who professes it.

Our superintendent's the same way. I won't even, you know, those, whoever those people are maybe watching out there that wanna shut down any type of godliness in schools.

So, I'm not gonna mention things, but it's just a wonderful environment to be in, but it's not gonna last forever.

And it's so different than most other places. Yes, it is. It really, really is. Anyway, well, we'll find something to cause trouble with here at some point, to do a debate on or something here.

Yeah, we may have to go into Dallas to do it. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. There's lots of stuff to do in Dallas, yeah.

Did you see, though, Soteriology 101, his name's

Layton Flowers, and I don't mean to forget his name, because Layton is always friendly to me when

I see him at the convention. Did you see, he was happy about your truck, too. Did you see that? I did see that.

He said there was something we could agree about. Yes, there is. So, maybe he could give you the second string on his banjo.

We can agree about the trim package on my GMC. There you go, there's some unity.

Progress, progress. There you go, there you go, yeah. Well, I'm glad that he recognizes a good truck when he sees it.

Yes, he does. He sees a good truck, it's in a dance. So, anyways, all right, brother. Well, you are number two.

Sorry that Jason Lyle got here before you, but it was just, I was going north. It's an intellectual drop.

Anybody sitting there after Jason Lyle is an intellectual drop. There's absolutely no question about that. He is amazing.

Have you ever had him out? No, I have not. You really ought to think about it. He is just really worth having him come in and do stuff.

Well, you'll have to connect us. Oh. Because I've never even spoken to him. Easily done, easily done. I love to promote his stuff.

He's got a great book on fractals out now that you got to take a look at. It's good stuff. So, thank you, brother, for putting up with me for this time and for sitting here in the

AO mobile unit. There's a lot of people, every time everybody visits, they're like, oh, so that's what the rest of it looks like.

It's like, yeah, yeah, it's not overly clean right now, a little cluttered, but by tomorrow morning when

I leave, everything you see there will have to be exactly where it belongs.

I'm tempted to come over and watch football with you because you've got a great set up. Yeah, I do, I do. You could, well, putting the bike away is a little tough, but I could ride while you're watching football.

Yeah, I'll let you ride. I'll eat popcorn and you ride. Probably needs to get the other way around, but anyway.

That's for another deal. Another deal, all right. Well, thanks, everybody, and thanks, Rich. I threw it at Rich pretty quick, and so he was looking somewhat stressed back there, but thanks for getting it all put together.

One of the reasons we did this quickly is so that Tom and I can now go have Mexican food.

Gotta get that done, and I've got stuff to get done before I head out in the morning for another seven hour run.

And the one thing, I love Texans, but there ain't much in the way of mountains to look at around here, you know?

Between here and West Texas, it gets worse. But our hearts are big.

Your hearts are big, your state's big, but your mountains are pretty - Non -existent.

Non -existent, yeah, so that's what I got going tomorrow. So, Rich, thanks a lot for everything, and thanks for watching the program.

Sometime tomorrow, next day, we're gonna try to do another program. Obviously, keep the app on. We'll let you know.