The Big Brains of Brussels

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

And welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday afternoon. Yes. Feels like Thursday because we're doing an afternoon, but on a Tuesday Afternoon beautiful day here in Phoenix, Arizona. I think it's what's like 79 degrees or something like that outside.

This is this is why people move out here and then they leave in April. Sort of how it works I guess books which portray Traditional images of mothers caring for their children or fathers going out to work could be barred from schools.

Under proposals from Brussels now, why would you care about Brussels. Brussels the head of the European Union? We're not part of the European Union, but there are many many people. Many many people indeed who would like us to be under the control of the folks in Brussels or the folks in the UN and.

These are the folks they look to as the enlightened leaders of Western civilization and You understand this promotion the profanation of marriage now voted into law in certain states in the United States.

By popular vote even though it had been defeated 31 some-odd times in a row. Which is coming it will be shoved down our proverbial throats by the elitists who have been given leadership in Western countries and in the United States specifically.

Will force this upon us because it's part of a much broader Anti-christian agenda it is a it is a promotion of well the culture of death. Rather than the culture of life life is that which culture of life is that which promotes human life.

Which comes from the family unit of father and mother committed to one another for life raising children together modeling that loving relationship. Providing that firm foundation. Oh, yes, not perfectly even within the Christian home.

There are imperfections and and we are our beings who by grace can overcome those things. I'm not one of those people that looks back and you know, you look at your parents you go. Oh, they didn't this this right made into that right now that no.

Don't have that going on either but the culture of death doesn't want any of those things and so there is a fundamental overthrow of The proper Relationships of man and woman proper relationships between man and God man and man the foundation of law everything is up for grabs and so Books which portray traditional images of mothers caring for their children or fathers.

Going out to work could be barred from schools and proposals from Brussels. And of course, these are the very same people who are adamantly opposed To homeschooling because they want to control what your children are taught.

These people the left wants your children. Because they know. Well, they read 1984 and they're just following. Okay, just you haven't read 1984 yet. You need to read 1984. We've been warned but evidently Western Civilization is too stupid to recognize what happened only 60 years ago because that's too long ago ancient history.

Can't think that far back an EU report claims that gender stereotyping in schools. Influences the perception of the way boys and girls should behave. Well, duh. I'm sorry. That's not in there and damages women's career opportunities in the future.

Yeah, notice women's career opportunities. I'm not men's but just just women's and Of course career opportunity would not be actually, you know, raising children or being a mother. That's not a career.

Bad Critics said the proposals for study materials to be amended so that men and women are no longer depicted in their traditional roles would mean withdrawal of children's classics such as Enid Blyton's The Famous Five series don't know that one.

Sorry. And Paddington Bear do you know that one or Peter Pan? Okay, the document prepared. Okay, right ready. Who's it prepared by? The European Parliament's Committee on Women's Rights and Gender Equality.

That doesn't tell you that we're talking about pencil-necked geeks. Nothing will also suggest EU wide legislation is needed to tackle the way women are depicted in advertising during children's television programs.

It further complains about the number of women in EU Parliament's and Floats the idea of fixed quotas on a minimum proportion of female MPs. So you have to have a certain number of women in in Parliament, that's that's the idea there there's the European Union for you folks and There are many people who look at that and go.

Oh If we could just be as enlightened as them and they won the election last week. So just just be prepared for for that kind of thing. It is ironic That at the very same time you have that coming out of Brussels.

The Secular Humanist View of Society and the Need for Biblical Realism

Another interesting report that I read about the fact that Brussels has become a criminal sinkhole and You see there's connection here folks. There is a connection between having a unbiblical view of man and the degradation of society.

One of the Great advantages and blessings that the United States has experienced Was the fact that it was birthed out of a a Christian worldview primarily. It was not birthed out of a Muslim worldview.

It was not birthed out of a secularist worldview and There is a recognition that men are sinners men are sinners and That's one of the reasons we have the balance of powers between the various branches of government is That once power becomes concentrated in any one place What's the old saying power crops an absolute power crops?

Absolutely so. Recognizing that mankind is not capable of Possessing that kind of power. No one person or branch of government is supposed to have all the power. They're not supposed to be able to Collect the power that has been collecting in the executive branch over the past number of decades.

Unfortunately, and it's allowed to happen because well people in our day are more concerned about being safe than they are about having liberties and things like that and looking to the future and the Continuation of the nation and stuff like that.

That's just supposed to be a given and You don't have to worry about that kind of stuff anymore but anyway Here is where theology matters again. And that is There were some of those dreaded Calvinists around back then there were honestly we can document it.

They really were and Even if they necessarily weren't right there in the middle of things what they had preached what they had taught was well-known to everyone and There was a general recognition of all the depravity of man and the need to rein in the evil of man now secular humanism doesn't have that and That's why we see criminals being coddled and Every evil is now just sickness nothing's nothing's evil anymore except maybe Christianity, but You can't call anything evil say oh, that's sick that's meant to be I guess our way of saying evil now, but for very many people that actually means there is a sickness with that person.

You find a serial pedophile you find a serial killer. Oh, they're sick. They're not sick. They're evil. Oh They but there might be there must be something wrong with it because see man, it's just so good by nature and so Secular humanism doesn't understand these things.

And so here you have the very very center of the secular world in Brussels and It's overrun with criminals. Constant property crime. Criminals constantly breaking in muggings Stealing and of course the the disarmed citizens are defenseless even if they don't want to engage in Criminal activity themselves they are defenseless themselves.

You got away for the cop to get there and frequently the cops are not as well-armed as the criminals anyways. So it is Truly an amazing thing to see what happens when that kind of thing happens and we see this Going on Brussels.

I'm not gonna put that one on my list of places to visit anytime in the near future in any way shape or form. Meanwhile, the wonderful United Nations has something called agenda 21. We are in the 21st century and And agenda 21 is agenda 21 is very creepy.

In fact, I'm going to plug in my other computer here so that we can hear this. Listen to this it's not a good recording but listen to this really creepy commercial. That That the UN is produced and just just just I don't know just listen to it.

Cannot handle the sheer number of humans who live here. Something has to heal and I believe that it's up to us. To make sure that our children will have the opportunity to live good lives, too.

That says agenda 21 on the screen at the end as an old person walks away. I Have lived a good life. Remember Logan's run. Think Logan's runs heading our way. Now, I think in Logan's run. What was it. 25 at 25 and that's when the freaky They went in and you disappeared.

And yeah, remember that a lot of people don't remember that. But Yeah. Yeah, the young people are going what's Logan's run? I was a 1970s thing wasn't it because I think Farrah Fawcett was in it. So that was a long time ago but the whole idea was a Cultural euthanasia.

When you got too old you had you had made your contribution and and there you go and That's that's what the EU is. That's what the UN is. And wow, you just look at this stuff and you go. Get rid of the old people.

Well, there's we've got nothing we can learn from them and They've given you know, they've they've produced their offspring. Well, actually producing offspring is not considered to be much of a good thing anymore either.

Is it. Hmm there's a drain on resources. Worldview is everything and Man have we seen a revolution man. Have we seen a Revolution, you know, most people could not even begin to understand. This was Justin Taylor Yesterday Posted a blog article John Owens final words and on August 22nd 1683 at his home and Ealing a suburb west of London the great theologian Owen dictated his last surviving letter to his longtime friend Charles Fleetwood.

I'm going to him whom my soul hath loved or rather hath loved me with everlasting love. Which is the whole ground of all my consolation. The passage is very irksome and wearisome through strong pain of various sorts, which are all issued in an Intermitting fever.

All things were provided to carry me to London today attending to the advice of my physician. But we were all disappointed in my by my utter disability to understand the journey. I am leaving the ship of the church in a storm.

But while the great pilot is in is in it the loss of a poor under rower will be inconsiderable. Live and pray and hope and wait patiently and do not despair. The promise stands invincible that he will never leave thee nor forsake thee.

Now I just noticed some of the things in there. The passage is very irksome and wearisome through strong pain of various sorts, which are all issued in an un in an intermitting fever and I remember my fellow elder.

Speaking to the former elder who was the elder before I became another fellow name of Don cross and He said the brother cross said to him. I'm not afraid to die. It's dying. That's really the problem.

It's the process. It's the it's it's That that is really the issue. But it is interesting. They said I am leaving the ship of the church in a storm. You know, I suppose there's there's very few times When the true Church of Christ is sailing upon calm seas.

We all think the worst storm ever is now. But none of us have sufficient perspective to come that can kind of conclusion. We always you know. And and the older we get the more we're convinced that now is the worst because now we've got a little bit of perspective but even then it's No matter how long we live.

We can't possibly You know, anyway, I am leaving the ship of the church in a storm. But while the great pilot is in it, the loss of a poor under rower will be inconsiderable. I Really really really really really appreciate the attitude That is expressed there because I've I've heard far too many people.

Well two things I've heard far far too many people that really wouldn't care About Whether the church was in a storm or not. But secondly, I've heard far too many people who did consider that. Who did not view themselves as a poor under rower?

I mean most of us will never do anything near to what John Owen did for the church and lasting value, etc, etc but to view yourself properly even at the end and To recognize, you know, I am but a poor under rower of the church.

Very very very good. This two days later William Payne a friend who was overseeing the printing of his light of his latest book The glory of Christ paid him a visit. Payne assured Owen that plans were proceeding well for the publication own responded.

I am glad to hear it. But Oh brother Payne the long-wished for day has come at last in which I shall see the glory In another manner than I have ever done or was capable of doing in the world. These were Owens last recorded words.

He died that day August 24th 1683. Exactly 20 years after the great ejection of the Puritans. He was he was only 67 years old. That's We live longer and they did back then and. And There's a lot of folks just would not there's there's just no way that the vast majority.

Well, there's no way obviously the secular humanist could understand What Owen was saying? But sadly, there's a lot of Christians Who likewise would struggle to understand what John Owen was saying or see the importance of?

His of his statements. I I had a Had this up. I think last week. This was the October 30th. It was about a Maryland Catholic priest a Roman Catholic priest in Maryland one of the states that will be deciding whether to approve the same-sex marriage November 6.

Which I guess it did. Did Maryland do that? Yes, okay. Has told his congregation that he will continue to support such unions right after reading out loud a letter from his bar archbishop urging Catholics to vote against gay marriage.

Could we not then say that their devotion to and support of each other could be recognized by the church as a valid sacrament of God's unrelenting faithfulness to us just as much as the union of an elderly straight couple.

Neither will procreate children. But both can be sacraments of God's faithfulness and the living out of their commitments to each other the Reverend Richard T Lawrence told his congregation at Baltimore's st. Vincent de Paul Catholic Church on Sunday.

He reflected that his personal position on the issue stands directly against the official stance Roman Catholic Church. Which he had just reminded his congregation of by reading Archbishop William Laurie's letter to the faithful urging them to support traditional marriage.

When they go to the ballot boxes on November 6 now We need to recognize a couple things here first of all You know from my perspective this guy should quit. I mean you just quit. He should he should hand in the keys and hand over his robes or whatever and Go get a job someplace.

But I'm sorry that You have no right being Where you are? I mean if you don't believe and I I reject Roman Catholicism for the false religion that it is but if you're If you're gonna stand around and call yourself Roman Catholic then it at least act like one for crying out loud.

I Mean, you know all these people who identify as Roman Catholics and yet a majority of them again What they do they voted for the pro-gay marriage pro-abortion candidates etc etc and For all sorts of different reasons and I've had some people I've had some some people say well But you know those aren't the only sins.

The other side has sins to just have to pick between the sins. I don't know of anybody who is you know the Democratic National Convention was a was an orgy of of worship of Homosexuality the profaning of marriage and The murder of unborn children isn't it wasn't it?

I mean Albert when Albert Moeller can do an entire section in the briefing on it that means it has been noticed and needs to be commented upon and So for people say well, yeah, but I know some Republicans and they sin in this way and I I asked this one fellow I said so you're telling me that it was part of the party platform of The Republicans and remember I'm an independent so because the Republicans aren't conservative enough for me, but so so they What specifically about the platform?

Institutionalizes anti-christian teaching and sin such as the murder of unborn children a holocaust in the midst of us and The utter profaning of marriage and the promotion of the culture of death. Could you could you could you name what?

Oh, they're racist. So there's there is a racist platform platform. It was it's just it's just absolutely amazing to me. It really really is I did see I have played I'm gonna do two things here we Give credit where credit's due when people we disagree with say the right things do the right things.

We should we should note it. I have played and criticized in this program a Section by Michael Voris the vortex. He's a Roman Catholic. I really conserved Roman Catholic and I saw a His post Election.

Well, shall we call it an autopsy? I guess it's the best way to put any post-election thing is autopsy of what what took place? And At least the guy is a consistent Roman Catholic. Now the funny thing is I've seen where he's not allowed to speak certain places because he's too conservative.

Which is another thing is it makes me go look guys This unity thing you got you you keep talking about you ain't got it going too good here. Because here's a guy as far as I can tell at least up till you know modern times he's pretty much on with what was being taught and He said I Mean he just came straight out and said look the modernists have taken over our seminaries the modernists have taken over he named bishops.

He named Archbishops by name this guy in Los Angeles and this guy in Chicago and this guy here and this guy there and he named Name, which is probably why he's not popular in various places and I I can understand that I'm not popular in various places because I've named names too.

So I know how that works but he just Went at it and and said look there was wasn't any question here. There wasn't that I mean when you've got Archbishops coming straight out and saying you you you must vote to defend this view of marriage you must vote to defend the lives of the unborn and You've got one of the one of the if we say you know the vice presidential candidates were both allegedly Roman Catholics and You and which one got which one got the Catholic vote.

Wow. Not the conservative one not the guy who's actually a Roman Catholic the guy who clearly isn't I Mean if you can call Joe Biden a Roman Catholic, then I don't understand what Roman Catholicism is.

But the fact matter is why hasn't Rome done anything about it? You know the Roman Catholics want to stand up and say hey. We're we're fighting that HHS mandate and we're gonna we're gonna go down swinging and all the rest of stuff.

Hey guys clean it up at home first. When you start kicking these bozos out, we'll take you seriously till then you're just blowing smoke and you know it. Don't talk to me about how willing to be persecuted.

You are you won't clean things up at home. You've got people teaching in your seminaries that are just as liberal just as whacked out. Look at the staff at Notre Dame. Look at the staff at Boston College look at this look at the people teach in these places and You don't do nothing about it.

In fact, your Pope appoints them to biblical to papal biblical commissions. Don't talk to me about your unity and you're being willing to suffer when you won't even take the first step in cleaning up your own backyard.

Don't talk to me about it. Don't talk to your own people. Don't talk to me about your unity ain't Ain't happening ain't happening, but at least Michael Morris. He knows what the problem is. Problem is he's stuck in a system is broken.

There's nothing you can do about it. And and if anything is they can see this and they can call these people out. But they say they have an infallible authority, but that infallible authority sits there and twiddles his thumbs.

Excuse me, I'm glad I have a little cough button. So you don't have to actually hear all that anymore. It's a good thing. The other thing I was going to mention is I have not often done it but there have been a few times on This program that I have responded to some rather personal attacks that have come from a Fellow by the a blog called the grand verbalizer.

But rich riches what. Oh, yeah, I just as I got big. And there's been stuff that I've ignored. There's been stuff. I've just not even gonna. Yeah, Micah says the point of a cough button is so we don't know you cough, but now you told us.

But the difference is I had to hold it down so long. That there was a lot of dead air and people start wondering if they just lost their internet connection. If space aliens are interrupting the the satellite stream, you know all sorts of stuff like that.

So that's why I had to explain that and now I've explained it even longer and it's all because Micah, you know I had to say that but that's because he's from Northern, California and we know what Northern California is like.

So anyway. So the next time I do that, I'll just I'll just let it pass if you hear five minutes of dead air. Just assume that I'm coughing up a lung. But I'm not gonna tell you about it because Micah got on my back.

Okay. And that's just the way it is. So, what was I talking about? I don't know there I didn't tell you so Tuesday November 13th 2012. The grand verbalizer 19 blog spot comm. Now I believe turret and fan had mentioned That.

Something has happened here and I haven't kept up with it. Something has happened in the grand verbalizers. Theological alignments and I think the banner looks different to me now to Islam and Christianity a common word a website that explores Christian Muslim Polemic and apologetics.

I don't. I'm not sure that's what it said before but I could be wrong. I could be wrong. I don't know. Anyway, the title is apologies to dr. James White now for the mega ministries and. Then there is a quote of a text that I have quoted a number of times before from surah 29 46 argue not with the people the scripture unless it be in a way that is better save assumption as do wrong and Say we believe in that which has been revealed unto us.

Revealings you are a law and your Allah is one and unto him we surrender. And I have called that to a number of people especially they were getting nasty with me. But anyways, I want to take this time to apologize.

Dr. James White of alpha mega ministries I want to say for the record that the first time I heard of him was when I saw his debate with Hamza Abdul Malik. Which was in 1999 and that was back when I had hair not a lot of it, but it was it was thinning.

But I still had it. And I because I use clips from it and I see that all the time and people go. Hey, look you look differently. Well, yeah. Coming up on For 14 years ago. Hey, that does not seem that long ago.

I'm Aldo Malik was a mentor of mine. This is just my opinion, but I personally have not seen a Muslim lose a debate until that exchange. I Told Hamza Abdul Malik over the phone that I felt that James White had the upper hand that debate.

James White showed poise and confidence furthermore. He underscored the importance of any one Muslim or Christian understanding the sources of tradition as well as the languages of those sources, by the way I've said many many times I don't consider that my first Muslim debate.

I Consider the debate with Shabir Ali at Biola University my first Muslim debate. Hamza Abdul Malik had come to all of my debates on long. Well, not all. Well, maybe he did. Come to think of it, maybe by 1999 he had.

If you see the first of the great debate series where we with Jerry Matitix and then Mitch Pacwa. If you watch the audience questions very frequently Hamza Abdul Malik will come. I would stand up and he'll ask a question and Pretty early on he started saying we should debate as well.

And I'm like, I don't study Islam. That's not my thing, you know. So when my book on the tranny came out, he said well, let's debate that and since it was on the subject of my book well, I still felt a little uncomfortable because I knew that there would be other issues that would be coming up that you know, But that's why I don't consider it my first debate on Islam it was with a Muslim.

It was an Islamic debate. But it was not really my first Muslim day anyhow. Now I am still not in agreement with James one on many issues. Obviously, I do still believe that there are times when he himself is not consistent or brushes aside sincere critique.

No, that's possible. Yet as a Muslim, I want to thank him. I think many Muslims need to thank him. People in search of truth need to thank him. He has shown that Christians can engage Muslims in debate and apologetic effectively.

He has shown where we as Muslims have been inconsistent in our polemic and apologetic if you want my honest opinion I think that is quite possible that dr. James White may be the last great defender of reform Christianity.

Well, I'm not sure what that means last. No, I'm I'm very thankful. There are a Number of folks out there and and I wouldn't even use that term great defender. I'm just glad to have had an opportunity of doing something.

I'm not saying this is any sense of hope. I'm saying that because I do not see anyone else of his caliber doing what he does. Those who know this website know that it has never been friendly to James White or Alvin mega ministries.

That's true yet for those Christians who want to see their faith tradition engage Muslims respectively. They should be supporting him in whatever way they can. Regardless of his past blunders and mistakes.

I'm not sure which those referred to maybe when I misquoted Yasir Qadhi In the debate with Shabir Ali, I'm sure that's probably what I'm he's referring to. I do not claim perfection anyways in the Islamic tradition is said that Muslims the search of knowledge would travel great distances to sit the feet of the Learned and take knowledge from them.

There are a number of Hadith that mentioned that and then James White is a man and as such he is subject to the shortcomings of every other fallen creature as per Christian theology. That being said is simply laziness than a nation like the United States that more reformed Christians do not take knowledge from him.

That's interesting. I hadn't I'd skipped that one. I guess when I was scrolling down initially I like this because Knowing the desert of Arizona if I had such champion for my faith I would walk barefooted across the state of Arizona to go and learn from him.

Yeah, rich is going oh man Cholla cactus immediately crosses your mind at that point in time. For what I've for what I have said that is truthful in regards to him. May Allah accept it and may it be of benefit to the readers for what I have said that is dishonest and despicable on my behalf.

I ask Allah to forgive me and This is where I know something's happened. I don't know what and I asked this of Allah through the messenger Christ Jesus. That means there's been some change in theology here that I'm not aware of but since we have Responded to this gentleman before I want to say that obviously I do not hold.

I cannot as a Christian hold grudges when someone asks for forgiveness. Even this must be given and so if there is anything that I can do to be of assistance in this gentleman's examination of our faith then I will certainly be glad to be glad to do so and very very very very interesting.

I Want to look at oh were you oh, okay. I thought you're pointing to the sky or something as a what? There's a meteor coming in. I don't know I Want to what's a play? It's a bird. Thanks. I want to look at a text of Scripture here.

I'm not sure how long this is gonna take we might have opportunity for one or two calls toward the end. I don't know, but when I start looking at a passage of Scripture Richard really started laughing.

Like yeah, sure. Mm-hmm. Okay, now now you need to see what's happening whenever I stop talking if I don't use the cough button people on channel are going cough button. There now they're now they're predicting now and you know, this is only people whose nicks start with an M I think I'm going to ban.

I'm gonna send all nicks to start with an M to to purgatory and Let them Let them go from there. Anyway Hebrews chapter 6. Hebrews chapter 6 Not exactly the text that a lot of reformed folks Would put on their favorite text in the Bible.

As soon as I say it, what do you think of? For most reformed folks It's like versus 46 and I gotta explain this all the time and I remember even as a teenager I remember as a teenager. What what. I think I was a yeah, I was a senior.

We had a guy at our church, this is not a reformed church. This was a Southern Baptist Church. It was a non reformed Southern Baptist Church and We taught the perseverance the Saints anyways or some form of eternal security there everybody knew that was the official position of the church and This high school small group teacher of mine One Sunday morning all of a sudden started teaching against this.

And I took him on what you can imagine by time. I was a high school senior I was always already a little bit on the weird side and and They got they left the church. I Ran into him at a Christian bookstore about you know, six months later and What was the first text he threw at me was Hebrews chapter 6 verses 4 through 6 so This is a text that a lot of people don't like I've preached on this text.

I've preached through Hebrews chapter 6 And I'm not sure what you're pointing at but that's okay. What what?

Yeah interrupt now before I really get into the exegesis exactly because there is a paragraph here that came in email In even a couple of days ago. I haven't told you about it, and I'm just thinking the Providence of this.

This gentleman has been haunted by Hebrews 6 4 through 6 and was wondering if an apostate feels Conviction of the Holy Spirit or feels the spirit when they pray because when I was younger I prayed To Satan to ask him to bless my family.

But I said no matter what I would not deny Christ as son of God who died for my sin. Does this a prayed to Satan twice? That's what it says after that. I repented but now I don't know if I'm forgiven or not.

And how can I know please help? Oh? And so it's like well, you know if you're gonna go here well.

Maybe something I say will be relevant, but that's really not the subject of addressing. But I'm looking at the text so maybe there'll be something that will be relevant to that. We know the text. Let's Let's take a look at it therefore leaving the elementary teachings about the Messiah.

Let us press on to maturity not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and a faith toward God of instruction about washings and laying out of hands and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment and This we will do if God permits.

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come and Then have fallen away.

It is impossible to renew them again to repentance since they again crucify themselves the Son of God and put him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it also is also tilled Receives a blessing from God.

But if yields thorns and thistles it is worthless and close to being cursed and ends up being burned. But beloved we are convinced of better things concerning you and things that accompany salvation though we are speaking in this way now I Do believe that that that the illustration in verses 7 and 8 and the concluding statement in verse 9 Have to be given a position of normative interpretive value.

That is the writer himself Gives an illustration of two kinds of earth. Just as Jesus did. Actually, Jesus had multiple kinds of earth, but you you know that the in the parable of the soils. You had seed that fell on different kinds of soil, but there were only two results.

You either brought forth Crops or you didn't you may have brought forth temporary crops. You may have brought forth crops that didn't last long. But the final analysis was that there was only two kinds of crops.

Or two kinds of responses and that was either you brought forth fruit, or you didn't bring forth fruit. Same idea here same issue here that we have in in Hebrews chapter 6 and then when he then Says that if he yields thorns and thistles is worthless and close to being cursed and ends up being burned, etc, etc.

But beloved we are convinced of better things concerning you and things that accompany salvation. Though we are speaking in this way so The focus has been upon well look it's obvious That what is mentioned in verse 4 is only About true Christians and so therefore true Christians can fall away.

Which makes me go then what are things which accompanies salvation? Well, but think about these things the case who those who have been enlightened well Photos then toss. They've received light. Now that could refer to a regenerate person receiving the light of Christ.

But of course the only light anyone ever receives comes from Christ. If anyone has any light at all it comes from God there is no Non divine light. Let's put that way and they've they've tasted of the heavenly gift.