December 17, 2020 Show with Ryan Denton & Joe Jacowitz on “Even if None: Reclaiming Biblical Evangelism”
December 17, 2020
RYAN DENTON, (MA) was a pastor on the Navajo reservation before starting Christ in the Wild Ministries, which he has directed since 2016, & JOE JACOWITZ, founder of FirstLove Radio & FirstLove Publications, who will both address:
“EVEN IF NONE: RECLAIMING BIBLICAL EVANGELISM”
Transcript
Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.
This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues
facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27, verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens
another.
Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to
have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with
your own questions.
And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the
planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.
This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on the 17th
day of December, 2020.
And I'm thrilled to have back on the program two guests that have been interviewed on this
program before, the second of which is joining us in the second hour.
That will be Pastor Joe Jakowitz of Christ Bible Church in
Pleasanton, California.
He is also the founder of First Love Radio that live streams this program every day, and
also the founder of First Love Missions and First Love Publications.
So stick around so that you can hear Joe's participation with us in the second hour.
But joining me right now for the entire program is Ryan Denton, who was a pastor
on the Navajo Reservation before starting Christ in the Wild Ministries, which he has
directed since 2016.
And it's my honor and privilege to welcome Ryan Denton back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
It's great to be back on, Chris.
And our topic today is going to be Ryan's latest book, Even If None,
Reclaiming Biblical Evangelism.
And if you could, first of all, Ryan, let our listeners know about Christ in the Wild Ministries.
Yeah, so like you said, and I was doing a lot of evangelism while
I'm more gifted as an evangelist, certainly more burdened
about that kind of ministry than pastor.
My wife and I, we prayed about and sought the Lord, and I thought I
had similar ministries as the Wild Ministries.
And we stepped out in faith and started telling people kind of what we're going to do,
you know, as far as what's God burdening us
with, church walls, with the gospel.
And of course, but for me, the primary
emphasis and really taking it
to area
farmers markets down and find a group of
people
to keep our ministry underneath church.
And they sent me out to
central and
to evangelize to certain areas.
Again, it's to
preach
the gospel.
And that website is christinthewild .com.
That's correct.
Christinthewild .com.
And before we go into a discussion on your new book, Even If None, Reclaiming
Biblical Evangelism, I think we should let our listeners know about another book that you co
-authored with Scott Smith that I interviewed you on.
I can't even remember how long ago.
It was at least a year ago, I believe, but perhaps even longer ago.
A Certain Sound, A Primer on Open Air Preaching.
Why don't you tell our listeners about that so that their appetites will be wet, not only to get a hold of that book,
but also to listen to our interview on that subject.
Yeah, I think it was probably, what was that, 2019, I think, around April
or May when the book was published.
And yeah, Scott Smith and I, Scott's another open air preacher.
Yeah, he and I, we
co -authored a book and really built on that.
And so he had no idea where to turn or where to go.
And like most people, you know, you go to YouTube and you start watching videos.
And the problem with that is most of the guys on YouTube are Pelagians or, you know, far left of
even Arminianism.
And so there's not a whole lot of quality content.
And so Scott and I got together and pitched an idea to ourselves
on open air preaching,
and he kicked it out.
And Joel Beek, he actually wrote that.
So yeah, you can find that at RHB.
Yes, and that actual website is heritagebooks .org, heritagebooks
.org for Reformation Heritage Books.
You could also get it from CVBBS .com, who sponsors my program.
That's Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.
And if you want to, after this program's over, if you want to look up in the archive of
Iron Trip and Zion Radio, the previous interview that Ryan Denton
and I had on his book, A Certain Sound, a primer on open air preaching, just go to
irontripandzionradio .com, click on podcast past shows,
and then type in the search engine Ryan Denton, R -Y -A -N -D -E
-N -T -O -N, and that interview will come up.
The archived recording of that interview will come up.
But our discussion today is your new book, as I said, Even If None, Reclaiming Biblical Evangelism.
And first of all, the title, the main title of the book is quite interesting.
Even If None.
And I have a very strong feeling where you're coming from with that title.
I'm assuming it has to be in regard to, this
is something especially believed by Reformed Christians, those that believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace,
that we are to proclaim the gospel to every creature, even if
none come to us with a profession of faith, and within our witnessing, get
saved.
I don't know if that's what you meant by that, but why don't you tell us?
Hey, we would
love
for
local
churches to, and you know, every time we go out and share the gospel, we see people converted.
We would love that.
We live in a culture that's very gospel hardened.
And, you know, when you take the gospel to the lost, by and large, there's not a lot of
conversions taking place.
And even, you know, healthy, good biblical churches are not seeing this.
And so the difficulty becomes, if we're in,
if we're doing these things for the sake of seeing people saved primarily, then what happens if that doesn't happen?
Christianity, then what God tells
us, the saying,
even if one.
So in other words, you go out and you share the gospel, and it's not to say
that even unbiblical,
it's not to say that we should just check a box when we go and evangelize, and we say, okay, we do our duty and, you know, we did it and that's it.
You know, it should be motivated by our love for Christ and by our love for people.
But it is to say that wind
up in the area.
And God is glorified when his truth is declared and when error is exposed and refuted.
And also, we must never forget, as has been the case in history,
when missionaries went out on a very dangerous mission field that was
practically, if not completely, void of any
presence of Christianity, the fact that
no one comes to Christ while that missionary is evangelizing and
proclaiming the gospel and just being obedient to Christ.
And if he never sees a soul while he is there or while he is alive,
receive the gospel, embrace it, and become a Christian.
That does not mean that his labors were in vain, even in an earthly sense, because
there have been circumstances when very little, if any, fruit had been borne
by the labors of a particular missionary in a particular foreign field.
But after that missionary had passed on, the crop where
the seeds had been planted and watered sprung up.
And there have been great revivals that took place in areas that are now, even today, thriving with
Christianity, even though the first missionary efforts, in an earthly sense
and according to human beings, may have been viewed as a complete failure.
William Carey, and that's exactly what happened to him.
He was a guy who was in England, and he was burdened, and he
was trying to get people motivated and get people behind him to support him to get out there and to do it.
And he couldn't find hardly anybody until
he got to
India, six years.
Now, if you could imagine, and nobody really had
hyper -Calvinism,
but what William Carey was, you people, nobody was really motivated
that what goes out there, you
could imagine how eager he would have been to send back some kind of report.
There's a lot of good quotes from Carey about how, you know, during that time that he's out there, he has
nothing to say, now, of
course, and just
unimaginable, his wife's going in,
even if he's not
somebody who would
be consulting
hundreds,
a hundred years later, or
whatever.
And so, tomorrow,
my guest on
Iron Chopper and
Zion
Radio will
be Dr. Michael Hagen.
And we're going to...
Yeah, we're going to be discussing his book, Strangers and Pilgrims on the Earth, Remembering the
Mayflower Pilgrims from 1620 to 2020.
Yeah, I love interviewing him.
Praise God.
And it's going back to what we were just talking about, the mission field.
It's tragedy when you hear about these non -reformed denominations,
and a very large one.
Well, I'll just say it, because I know that my friends who are in the Southern Baptist Convention, who are theologically reformed,
would readily admit this and speak about it publicly often.
But it's sad that denominations like the Southern Baptist Convention, the element
in it that is not reformed, which is the majority these days, even though it was
founded in the 19th century completely by Calvinists.
But the mission boards will be very quick to yank people off
the mission field if they don't produce numbers.
It's almost like a sales representative for like a paper
company or some other kind of manufacturer.
If the sales rep is failing miserably making sales, then
the company will either yank him out of that area and put him in another area or fire him, whatever the
case is.
But the gospel of Jesus Christ is an entirely different matter than selling paper or other products.
To that,
I wrote
down the
quote, BC.
I'm an ordained minister.
I'm no longer part of the SBC.
When you go to their
website,
church,
I go to
their
cover, you
know, the
church
of
these
denominations
with Christ.
Again, you're not seeing a lot there.
And I want to start a church, but I'm not seeing anybody say, but I know just like that I'm under
requires, let's say, four years and I'm not seeing that happen.
Well, necessarily, I'm going to water down the gospel.
I'm going to make it easier.
In other words, I'm not going to tell them about counting the cost.
I'm not going to, I'm going to give everything just plain and simple.
I'm going to make, I'm going to cater to sometimes
lost human.
You know, it's sad that that's the way these denominations work, but that's just how it.
Is.
And that's why I'm
doing it right now.
But it is the outworking to me in my mind of become
unbiblical in your theology.
Well, speaking of people who I interview, one of my favorite guests that I've ever interviewed, and in
fact, he is one of my favorite preachers of all time, if not my very favorite preacher of all
time, Dr. Conrad M. Beyway, pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa,
whom I have had the privilege and honor to call my friend since 1995.
And I'm looking forward to him returning to the States, as he has promised
in 2021.
At some point, he will be my speaker for my biannual Iron Shepherds, Iron
Radio pastors luncheon, and I'm really looking forward to that.
But Dr. M. Beyway, who wrote the foreword to your book, I want to
read just one chapter, chapter, not one chapter, one paragraph
of his foreword for our listeners.
A person who reads Ryan Denton's book should not simply read it for the purpose of increasing head
knowledge, but rather for the purpose of joining the growing number of God's children who take the work of
evangelism seriously.
We have done enough talking.
Let us fold our sleeves and get to work.
We have the true gospel.
Let us ensure that it is communicated collectively and individually to those who need to hear
it.
Let us proceed to pray that the Lord will own our labors so that with the help of the Holy
Spirit, we may see more spiritual babies being born and nurtured in our churches.
Also, I'd like to read the commendations for this book by three other men
who I know personally very well and love and who I've interviewed on this program.
First of all, Dr. Tom Nettles, Senior Professor of Historical Theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.
Ryan Denton has given us an essential handbook on evangelism that is like eating frozen,
concentrated orange juice straight from the cylinder.
Then, Justin Peters, who actually was very recently one of my Iron Trip and Zion Radio
Pastors Luncheon speakers, Justin Peters of Justin Peters Ministry, says, I
really, really loved this book.
Ryan Denton gives both a sobering assessment of modern evangelical methods, as well as a
motivating challenge for believers to do evangelism as God has prescribed it to be done.
And then finally, Sy Ten Bruggenkate, another dear friend, says, The authority of this
book is scripture.
The wealth of biblical references and exhaustive quotes from evangelists of old are
alone worth getting this book.
Well, those are just some of the folks that have written endorsements for this book, and we
will be talking more about that when we return from our first station break.
If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail dot com.
C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com.
And as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
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We're going to be right back with Brian Denton and more of our discussion on Even If None, Reclaiming Biblical
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Welcome back.
This is Chris Orange and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two
hours is Ryan Denton, who is founder of Christ in the Wild Ministries and we are
discussing his book, Even if None, Reclaiming Biblical Evangelism, joining us during the
second hour, in about a half hour from now, will be Joe Jakiewicz, the founder of First Love Radio
and First Love Publications.
If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence
if you live outside the USA.
Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
And Ryan, perhaps we should make sure that you define
evangelism.
Some folks have even used that as an adjective for
many years, that only means that you're talking about anything
aggressively and passionately that you want to share with others.
But people even have been using it for secular reasons as an adjective these days.
But if you could tell us, what is evangelism?
By the way, your voice sounds completely different than it did before.
You're really muffled now.
Yeah, I know.
I was opening up the, I got a Bible here.
I was
opening, you go out and you
share the gospel and people get saved.
That's evangelism from a guy named Darius Salter
and another guy named Peter Wagner.
And, you know, they're Arminians and like
Martin Luther and J .I. Packer, who define evangelism as simply sharing the gospel.
And again, you see that, what I was going to say, you see that in Acts chapter 8,
the word that the Bible uses there is gospelizing.
And that's whenever the disciples are scattered from Jerusalem and they're going around and they're gospelizing.
And that's the word that, that's where we get the word evangelism.
But as they
know it, they come in and they'll say,
okay,
well,
that's actually divine
evangelism.
To me, this is so ironic because Christ, a lot of his parables,
and three of the,
well, actually
two of the parables by
the weeds.
And he says, this is
how I evangelize.
It
turned
out not
to be
saved
like that.
And then, hey, you
know, so -and -so evangelized or said something to me, you know, a week ago or a month ago and
didn't see anything.
But you don't know how that arrow is going to, Christ made it very clear in a lot of
things.
He says that if you look, if you go by appearances only, you'll be deceived.
And I think the same thing happens in evangelism all the time.
And so I think that's why it's so for guys like
Darius, there is God knows
one who knows whether or not a person's truly on, whether or not someone's
truly converted.
How do we ever know?
Again, that's to me why evangelism, what's the
script evangelism
includes.
Yes, we must never forget that some plant seeds, some water them, but it is
God who brings the increase.
And we can't manufacture that.
And unfortunately, many people do for the sake of reporting numbers.
And very often, or very often, that is to boast about how
successful they are because of their own gifts and their own zeal and aggressiveness and
on and on.
Oh, we have a listener who happens to be a very faithful listener and a very generous
supporter financially of this program.
His name is Grady from Asheboro, North Carolina.
Hello, brothers.
For about 30 years now, our Heavenly Father has allowed me the privilege of sharing the gospel to
truckers in our country.
As a professional truck driver, out stop
time is limited.
Maybe he meant our.
Our stop time is limited.
So I hand out New Testaments with Psalms and Proverbs, a pole washer tract, the
gospel of Jesus Christ, and a booklet by either John Blanchard or Todd Freel.
I pray that our Lord will use these to reach truckers because the field, the fields
are certainly white unto harvest.
How do you handle evangelism when you're limited on time with someone?
I like that he does that.
Yeah, I have one of the minutes.
But yeah, that's a great question.
Tracts are great.
I mean, you know, because the thing is, is it goes back to what
you in by hearing, hearing
by the Word of God, the gospels, the power of God and the salvation, things like that.
Somebody that, that, that to me is evangelism.
Actually, I mean, that's why, you know, when we go out and evangelize, let's say, in open
air, see, I
think now in
central track in the
bathroom, I heard the gospel
and,
you
know, I
think
we're
all
having to tell he's always done
things
might
not
look like it.
Yes.
And I remember at a Jeremiah cry conference that I attended in Pensacola, Florida years
ago, where I actually met side 10, Brigham Kate and some other folks.
I met Jeff Durbin there and some others for the first time.
But I remember Jeff Pollard, the current executive director of Chapel
Library, who mainly produces tracks and very affordable,
brief booklets, some of them, which are excerpts of the writings of
men like Charles Spurgeon and some of the greatest preachers and teachers that have ever lived.
And some, some of them are more contemporary, but I think most of them are from brethren of old who are now in
heaven.
But he, he coined a phrase, at least I think he coined it during a message that he was giving
there at the conference.
He called tracks, paper missionaries.
And I love that.
But we have to get to our break right now, our midway break.
This is a longer than normal break, folks.
I hope that you will be patient with us.
But in the middle of the show every day, we take a longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in
Lake City, Florida requires of us a longer break because the FCC requires them to
localize this program to Lake City, Florida.
So they have to air their own public service announcements and other local things that connect us to Lake
City, Florida.
While they do that, we air our own globally heard commercials.
So please use this time wisely, write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that
you can more frequently and successfully patronize our advertisers to keep them happy so that they will continue
sponsoring this program because we need their finances to exist.
We cannot exist without their financial support, without the financial support of our advertisers.
But also use this time to send in a question for Ryan Denton on evangelism to chrisarnson
at gmail .com.
C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.
As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you
live outside the USA.
And don't go away.
We'll be right back with Ryan Denton after these messages.
James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries and the Dividing Line webcast here.
Although God has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach, preach, and debate at numerous venues, some of my
very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with Pastor Rich Jensen and the brethren at Hope
Reform Baptist Church, now located at their new, beautiful facilities in Corham, Long Island, New York.
I've had the privilege of opening God's Word from their pulpit on many occasions, have led youth retreats for them, and have always
been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my New York debates.
I do not hesitate to highly recommend Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island to anyone who wants to be
accurately taught, discipled, and edified by the Holy Scriptures, and to be surrounded by truly loving
and caring brothers and sisters in Christ.
I also want to congratulate Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham for their recent appointment of Pastor Rich Jensen's co -elder,
Pastor Christopher McDowell.
For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net.
That's hopereformedli .net, or
call 631 -696 -5711.
That's 631 -696 -5711.
Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Corham, Long Island that you heard about them from James White on Iron
Sharpens Iron Radio.
Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round Bible conference and retreat
center nestled on the Jersey Shore.
Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.
For generations, Christians have enjoyed gathering and growing at Harvey Cedars.
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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.
Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens
Iron Radio financially.
Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives
to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in Scripture through the person and work
of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And of course, the end for which we strive is the glory of God.
If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes,
or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will
join us some Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior.
Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.
Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org.
That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.
This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our Sovereign
Lord, God, Savior, and King, Jesus Christ, today and
always.
Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
I would like to introduce you to my good friends Todd and Patty Jennings at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley
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Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence as Todd and Patty work
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Let Todd and Patty know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.
Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions,
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Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.
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Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future.
Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.
For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ
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That's 631 -385 -8333.
Or visit liyfc .org.
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Was your business shut down during the COVID -19 pandemic, depriving you of earning any
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Hi, this is John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.
Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the Iron Sharpen's Iron podcast.
I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity.
He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key
doctrines of the Christian faith.
I've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet
where folk won't be led astray.
I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide.
This is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet God has raised Chris up for just such a time.
And knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer
and in finances.
I'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting Iron
Sharpen's Iron financially.
Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?
I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would.
All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com where you can click support.
That's ironsharpensironradio .com.
We are excited to announce another new member of the Iron Sharpen's Iron radio advertising family,
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I'm a pharmacist in New York, which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through.
In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made, and wondrous are your works that my soul knows
very well.
He saw God's goodness and mercy, kindness, and the beauty in what God has
designed, and he has erupted into praise.
In any crisis or problem, brothers and sisters, our only fallback position is to trust God's
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And once we do, there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him.
When the whole world is searching for a solution, God in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to
address this illness, which can be pretty serious.
Such is the beauty of his design.
Knowing that design, how can we not erupt in praise to our great God like the psalmist did?
May God bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design.
Thank you.
James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.
If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other
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And besides that, they feel so good.
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No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot.
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I'm Pastor Rich Jensen of Hope Reform Baptist Church in Coram, New York, and the NASB is my
Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor Sule Prince of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, and the
NASB is my Bible of choice.
I'm Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, and the NASB is my Bible
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I'm Pastor Chuck Volo of New Life Community Church in Kingsville, Maryland, and the NASB
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I'm Pastor Roy Owens, Jr. of the Church of Friendship in Hockley, Texas, and the NASB is
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Here's a great way for your church to help keep Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio on the air.
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Go to nasbible .com.
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Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.
Give yourself unto reading.
The man who never reads will never be read.
He who never quotes will never be quoted.
He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.
You need to read.
Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.
The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and
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Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting
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We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.
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to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.
Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
And please, folks, there's still time to order your Christmas gifts from solid -ground -books .com.
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Every time you purchase a book from solid -ground -books .com, you are helping Iron Sharpens Iron Radio
remain on the air, because they, solid -ground -books .com, are a primary, a vital
sponsor of this program.
Without their financial support, we would likely go off the air, barring a miracle from God.
So please visit solid -ground -books .com frequently, and purchase generously, and always mention
that you heard about them from Chris Orenson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
Before we return to our guest today, Ryan Denton, who is discussing his book,
Even If None, Reclaiming Biblical Evangelism, he's also going to be joined by my dear friend,
Joe Jakowicz, pastor of Christ Bible Church in Pleasanton, California, in
the Dublin, California area, who is also founder of First Love Radio, who live
-streams this program, and First Love Publications, who published this book by Ryan Denton,
Even If None.
We'll be returning to that discussion momentarily, but first, I have some important announcements
to make.
Tomorrow, as I said earlier, we are going to be joined once again by my dear friend, Dr. Michael A .G.
Haken, and he is going to be discussing his new book that he edited and
contributed to, Strangers and Pilgrims on Earth, Remembering the Mayflower
Pilgrims, from 1620 to 2020, and I'm looking forward with bated
breath to that interview tomorrow.
Can't wait.
I always love interviewing Dr. Michael Haken.
Then on Monday, we have, for the first time ever, well, for the second time
ever in the history of this show, there are going to be guests, or should I say guest hosts,
filling in for me.
I have only done that once before, early on in the show, when we were broadcasting at WNYG and WGBB
in Babylon, Long Island, New York, when my friend, Pastor Jim Capo, and
Christian recording artist, Steve Camp, hosted my show in my absence.
Well, so then this is going to be the second time that I'm having fill -in hosts on Monday,
but it will be the first time that Dr. James R. White has ever filled in as a host.
He has been a guest on this program many times.
In fact, he was my very first guest ever on the show, and he was also my first guest when I relaunched the
program from Pennsylvania in 2015, but he has never hosted this
show before, and he's going to be joined by his co -host, Pastor Bill Shishko
of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Deer Park, Long Island, New York,
known as The Haven, and they, interestingly enough, debated each other on
infant baptism a number of years ago.
Many of you may have seen the now infamous stand -up comedy routine that I did at the
beginning of that debate.
I orchestrated and emceed that debate between Dr. White and Pastor Shishko
on infant baptism, but even though they were taking opposite ends, representing opposite
sides of that issue, infant baptism, in that debate, they
have always been and remain very good friends and highly regard each other as brothers in Christ
and as apologists and biblically knowledgeable servants of God, but they're going to be
hosting the show together, and I hope you tune in to that.
I can't wait to hear what they have to say myself.
And also, folks, if you love this show and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to iantrepansionradio .com,
click support, then click to donate now.
You can donate instantly with a debit or credit card by doing that.
You can also send in a check the old -fashioned way via snail mail to the address that will appear on your screen
when you click support at iantrepansionradio .com.
You can also advertise with this as long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what I believe.
You don't have to believe exactly as I do, but you need to be promoting something that is at the very least compatible with
what I believe, and if you do, and if you are, I would love to hear from you,
and I would love to begin that ad campaign as quickly as possible because we are in very urgent need of your advertising dollars.
Folks, we have been hit very hard financially during this coronavirus pandemic because of the hysteria involved
in it.
People's businesses have been seriously damaged financially as a result of this hysteria,
and that includes business owners that are in our audience who have been forced to cut back if
not eliminate their donating, at least for the time being, hopefully, and
some of our advertisers have had to cut back, so we are hurting really badly.
If you love this show and you really care about it, please help us out.
Go to www .IronTropeAndZionRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate now.
Please don't ever siphon money away from your regular giving that you are accustomed to to your own local church in order to give to
Iron Trope and Zion Radio.
In other words, don't curse or punish your church, your own church financially because you are giving to
us.
Also, please don't put your family in serious financial jeopardy if you're really struggling to
survive and make ends meet by giving to Iron Trope and Zion Radio.
Those two things are commands of God providing for your church and your family.
Providing for my radio show is not a command of God, obviously, but if you are blessed financially above and beyond your
ability to obey those two commands, you do have extra money to use for benevolent purposes and recreational
purposes and other things, then please help us out.
If you really don't want us to go away, please go to www .IronTropeAndZionRadio .com, click support, then click click to donate
now.
Also, folks, if you are not a member of a local Bible -believing church, no matter where on the planet Earth you
live, I may be able to help you find a church that is biblically faithful.
I have extensive lists of churches all over the globe and I have helped people find churches in our
audience from all parts of the world, churches sometimes that are in a minute's drive from their own home
that they didn't even know existed or they didn't know were biblically faithful.
So, if you need help finding a church, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put I need a church in the subject line.
That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, I need a church in the subject line.
And that's also the email address to send in a question to our guest, Ryan Denton.
And again, the theme is his book, Even If None, Reforming
Biblical Evangelism.
And our email address again is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
Chrisarnson at gmail .com, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
And I believe we have been joined also by Pastor Joe Jackowitz of Christ Bible Church in
Pleasanton, California.
Are you not there, Joe?
I am here.
Great, praise God, brother.
And since your publishing ministry that you founded, First Love Publishing,
in addition to First Love Radio, which live streams this program and First Love Missions, why don't you
tell us about First Love Publishing since you are the ones that brought Even If None
by Ryan Denton into print?
Well,
greeting
five
years,
distribute
them
free
of charge all around the world at pastors' conferences.
Also receive orders online at firstlovepublications .org
free book online.
And I would like to make a special offer today.
If none, the book we FirstLovePublications .org
of the list of Even If None, click on it
and put it in the cart and order it.
And we'll get that out to you in the mail as soon as possible.
That's free of charge.
Well, praise God.
Yes.
And First Love Radio is a 24 -7
radio station online.
You're listening right now through First Love Radio.
And we are so blessed to have Chris's program on our station.
It actually anchors our station and it's growing in listenership and in popularity.
And so we're so blessed to be partners with you, Chris, in this ministry of sharing God's word
through your radio.
Then we have First Love Missions, which is a missions organization where we, again, bring the
gospel into many different countries.
We accompany our gospel preaching and teaching seminars and conferences with free book
distribution.
We've given away over $300 ,000 worth of books, booklets, and tracts to pastors,
to believers, 25 years.
Right now our mission, because of the lack of
countries, because of the overseas.
And then our newest venture is Grace Bible University, which we hope to offer a Bachelor of Theology
degree through two formats and hard copies of the courses
free of charge.
Free of charge.
And that's in the works right now.
We just published our first course along with a student
study guide and a leader study guide.
And so those are the four ministries of First Love Ministries.
You can find a lot more information about them through different websites.
First, you can go to firstlove .org, firstlove .org.
Or you can go directly, if you want the book, even if none, you can go directly to
firstlovepublications .org.
And as far as the church, we have our own website.
They're located in Northern California,
east of San Francisco in the Bay Area.
Praise God.
Website is christbiblechurch .org.
Praise God.
Now, one quick question.
I know that a part of this ministry, First Love Publications, is that you never charge for books, which is
absolutely amazing.
It now is any individual eligible to receive any of your books for free?
Or do you have to be a part of a church?
Do you have to use it as a missionary endeavor?
How do they get these books for free?
And who is offered these books for free?
No, anybody can order one
a month
on a case -by -case basis.
Like if you have a conference, we just sent, as a matter of fact, Ryan, what, 100 copies of Even If None?
Well, I'm assuming
you must be.
A presuppositionalist, Ryan, if you're preaching with Sir Tim Burdengate.
Yes, sir.
Yeah, yeah, totally.
In fact, in this book, Even If None, there's a chapter.
Now, could you just briefly summarize what that means for the sake of our listeners who don't know?
Well, it's apologetic that it's distant,
but even to the apologist,
which is why it's so great for evangelism, because that's how evangelism should work also.
By the way, I want to add something here about first love publications.
Unfortunately, most of us have a mindset that goes along with the slogan,
you get what you pay for.
And very often, maybe even most often, that's true.
And what that usually means is if you are getting something for free or if you're hardly paying
anything for it, it is either garbage or
looks like garbage.
You could have an excellent Christian book.
You might have a book that was authored by Charles Adams Spurgeon, but it might be on really
cheap paper that's going to fall apart in a few years and might have a horrible
cover, etc.
First love publications books rank up there as far as
the visual quality and the actual physical binding quality.
They rank up there with the top publishing houses.
I mean, this book by Ryan Denton, even if none, you would never believe that they're giving this away
for free.
This is a beautiful book.
In fact, let me ask you, is this depicting the martyrdom of Stephen on the cover?
Okay, that's what I assumed because there's somebody being stoned to death and I just assumed it was Stephen.
But it is a beautiful, if you could call stoning of somebody beautiful.
It's a magnificent artwork on the cover and it's a really sturdy book.
The typing is excellent.
The typeface, it's large enough that you don't strain your eyes when you're reading it.
My kudos to you, Joe Jakowicz, for the fine job that you and the
folks at first love publications are doing.
Well, let me just say also, who want to know about it,
we did
some
ministry.
He does a fantastic job and our printer is Chapel Library.
And so they do an awesome job.
So the combination of Chapel Library, ourselves at First Love Publishing and Jerry Doris
at Authorsupport .com,
presentations,
quality.
Yeah, and providentially, I just mentioned Jeff Pollard of Chapel Library moments ago.
And in fact, they have really improved
the aesthetic quality of their publications because they were
typically in the past and they still might carry some of these booklets that were far less
attractive, not really printed on the greatest stock.
But now they've really increased the beauty aesthetically of what they do.
And that's chapellibrary .org, chapellibrary .org for anybody who's interested.
If you could, Ryan, going back to your book, you have a section in your
book titled The Hope of Reformed Evangelism.
And we've already really gotten into some of the elements that make reformed evangelism
unique.
But if you could be more descriptive, if you will, and also tell us about the hope that you mentioned
that is attached to reformed evangelism.
Well, yeah, so in America,
fanatic evangelism,
Paul's
the
mandate
to
do
that.
He's still
at the
very beginning
of semester and he would come out there and he'd yell
and scream and do all kinds of things.
And
it's
not what
can be bet we have to trust.
Well, I don't know.
It's going to do a great work, but I just don't know.
The flavor of eschatolat is not going to go good,
especially when we're doing evangelism in a hardened context like what we're seeing.
Yes, and isn't it?
You had a go ahead, Jim.
Chris, if I might add to it,
is reformed evangelism
pragmatic methods to persuade people to put their trust in the Lord
because you believe that God will save his people.
He has chosen for me that we as
reformed Christians do not
every way we can as entered as we can.
We do that since we're God -centered in our evangelism
that God's word will not return void for which it is sent.
So whether we get immediate results from his word or a response from our hearers
right away or not, we believe that God's word will become a saver of life unto life and a saver
of death unto death.
In other words, he'll use his word.
It will never be wasted evasion or he'll
use his word in other ways such as and we
need to evangelize more than ever before because
people today are listening.
I'm sure Ryan will agree that
for a time such as this with
lawlessness and economic hardship,
anxiety, depression, even an increase in suicide, I've never seen it
and I've never seen more of the gospel than
today and among believers on a
God -centered
ever read or I've ever seen.
When Ryan sent it to me and I read it, I said, I have to publish this book.
It is even though it's only 215 pages and the appearance and presentation of the text
is very, very excellent.
It's comprehensive.
It addresses every single issue, the underlying issues, the key issues
connected with evangelism and it's also an excellent teaching tool
for churches.
Ryan is available but he's only one person.
If you're a pastor, copies of this book is
on evangelism.
As a matter of fact, the church,
a major adjustment in
theology of evangelism because there's so many unbiblical approaches to evangelism
by most churches and pastors and it's causing so much multiplication of
chaff, unsaved people filling our and suggested or
that we rarely see even the church,
even so many prayer meetings are dying out, which is a necessary
to our evangelism efforts.
We need to pray that God would bless and use our efforts unto the conversion of the lost
and today where we have great opportunities to
share the gospel, people are listening but on the other hand, we need the Holy Spirit.
Well, we have to go to our final break right now.
It's going to be a lot more brief than the other breaks.
If you have a question that you'd like to ask, our email address is chrisarnson at
gmail .com.
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Welcome back.
This is Chris Arnzen and we do have a questioner for
both our guests today, Ryan Denton and Pastor Joe Jakiewicz on
biblical evangelism and more specifically on the book.
We have been addressing Even If None, Reclaiming Biblical Evangelism.
We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York.
And CJ asks, How do you overcome the objection of non
-reformed people who say that they know that our beliefs are unbiblical
and non -Christian in their origin because of the fact that they rob one of a
passion and desire to evangelize the lost?
Only
understand,
find God
saying,
I wish I was accursed if it meant that my people could be saved.
And
so
here
you
have
William Carey.
In fact, the reason William Carey went to India was his reformed evangelist.
Yeah, typically, and Pastor Joe, you could jump in here after I have something clarified.
Typically, people are using not only their ignorance of reformed theology,
their having only heard or read the enemies of reformed theology, never having
read the reformed Christians themselves, or they may have read highly
edited versions of some of the reformed heroes of history, like Charles Haddon Spurgeon.
There are actually some publishing ministries who have literally edited out
anything that sounds too Calvinistic from Spurgeon's writings.
But they use their logic very often in that they would say, well, if
God has predestined before the foundation of the world, those who would be saved and those who
would be lost, rescuing those who are his elect
out from the same lump of clay that both the elect and the reprobate are made from are both from the
same lump of sinful clay, but God rescues some of us that he chooses to for no
goodness or nothing desirable on our own, but only for his reasons and his love and
his grace and mercy.
And the rest he leaves to remain in their own sin.
If he has predetermined who will be his people, they will say,
then why do we even evangelize?
Why do we even need to do this?
God's got this all programmed.
This is all a part of his robot system.
You know, they'll go on and on with things like that.
So perhaps Pastor Joe, if you want to start with responding to that, and then Ryan, you could add to it.
Sure, you almost took the wind out of my sails.
That's what I was going to say.
You know, in my almost 40 years of being a pastor, I never heard a Christian from a reformed perspective
rationalize and use logic like this.
Well, if God's going to save all the elect, he's going to do it.
Why do I need to go out and evangelize?
Never heard that before, and I've counseled thousands of people.
You see, it's the bad press that reformed believers have gotten from Arminians, Charismatics, Word of
Faith people, and that they've received from their pastors who tell them that reformed Christians don't
believe in evangelism.
I think the problem with reformed Christians, yes, they are kind of complacent and
lukewarm when it comes to evangelism, but it's not so much because they're using
rationalism and logic to justify their inactivity.
I think it's more of a lack of teaching on the Holy Spirit in reformed churches.
The Holy Spirit is our motivation.
In Him, we have the grace and the quickening power and the rejuvenating effect of the love of
God, of the joy of the Lord, the wisdom of God,
to renew us each day to go out as evangelists, as believers with the gospel.
And so I think it's more of a lack of teaching and exhortation on the need to be filled with the Holy
Spirit every day among reformed Christians.
I think that the perfect examples of the 19th century
founded the Scripture Knowledge Institution, which
distributed millions of Bibles and evangelistic tracts and
bookshelves
to men like Hudson Taylor in the China Inland Mission.
But reformed Christians usually are very, very zealous and we have the
biggest motivation of all to believe that God is going to
save for Himself a people, an instrument
of the gospel.
So we're not passive to evangelism if we are truly reformed because we
have all the motivation in the world.
We don't have to worry.
We know that many Armenian preachers use to try to persuade people
to choose God with their free will, which, of course, we don't believe.
We just preach the gospel indiscriminately to everyone and anyone who will hear and we leave the
rest to God.
Some so, we see the
divine side and the human side of evangelism.
God does the saving, but I already know
that I want to have you.
Come back on this program to do a part two of Even If None and even
Joe could join us if he'd like for another program on this.
But I'd like you to close the program with a couple of minutes of summary of what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today
about this subject before we go off the air.
Yeah, I'd
actually go
out and evangelize if
you know that God's already going to save who he wants to save.
And that from my
evangelism, if on
the Armenian and say,
listen,
the
entire
universe
is really the only glorious message and the only hopeful message out there.
And in God's wisdom, he is going to
use people just like us.
You know, the moms out there, the guys at the construction site, the guys that, you know,
the university professors, just all of us in our everyday spheres, he uses us sharing the gospel
in order to glorify his name, first of all.
And yes, add to his church, but we can trust that regardless of our circumstance or what we see,
whenever we evangelize, we can trust that God's going to use it.
And so, you know, my encouragement is to go out and do it.
Amen.
I want to make sure that I give our listeners Brian's website for Christ in the Wild Ministries,
christinthewild .com, christinthewild .com.
And Pastor Joe Jakowitz, if you could give our listeners again all of your contact information.
Yes, it's firstloveradio .org.
Three days of Christmas programming, special Christmas programming, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday,
the 23rd, 24th, and 25th on First Love Radio.
You'll need to go to the website to see the times and schedule of
firstloveradio .org.
If you want the free book, even if none, go to firstlovepublications
.org and order your free book, firstlovepublications .org.
Thanks, Scott.
Well, I want to thank both of you for being such wonderful guests as always.
I look forward to having you both back on the program.
In fact, if you could stay on the line and let me, after we go off the air, and let me get a hold
of a calendar and get you guys booked to continue this conversation.
I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.
And don't forget about tomorrow.
We've got Dr. Michael Haken on tomorrow to talk about strangers and pilgrims on the earth,
remembering the Mayflower Pilgrims from 1620 to 2020.
I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you
are a sinner.