March 23, 2004

Desert Metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona, this is

The Dividing Line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is Dr. James White, Director of Alpha Omega Ministries and an

Elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with Dr. White, call now at 602 -973 -4602 or toll free across the

United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341. And now with today's topic, here is

James White. And good morning and welcome to The Dividing Line.

Yes, it is a Tuesday morning. Too many of you have figured out what the new schedule was, so we had to change it again.

Keep you hopping, keep you confused. Hey, it's a good enough excuse,

I suppose. Actually, you know, we just have changing schedules and therefore the schedule changes.

That's sort of how it works. 877 -753 -3341. I forget how long ago it was.

It was quite some time ago. We reviewed on the program a video put out by Soulforce.

Soulforce is Mel White's pro -Christian homosexual organization.

The front of the video here says, Soulforce is an interfaith movement committed to ending spiritual violence perpetuated by religious policies and teachings against gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people.

That's GLBT for those of you who want to keep up with the newest terms.

Soulforce volunteers are guided by the Soulforce principles of relentless nonviolent resistance as taught by Gandhi and King.

They forgot to buy in there, but anyways. Wherever you are in your own faith journey, you are welcome to do justice with Soulforce.

And of course their symbol includes a picture of Martin Luther King and Gandhi on it as if homosexuality is a civil right.

And we'll start taking calls about, I don't know, maybe 20 till maybe.

Didn't spend all morning putting together these cuts to just go, let's just go over to another subject and not worry about it.

So we might just want to open the phone lines up a little bit later and go that direction.

I saw this video and went, oh, we need to refer to this. We need to respond to this.

This is called, There's a Wideness in God's Mercy. If you've heard that particular line a lot recently, that's because it's being used by open theists and inclusivists and everybody else.

And they use it to turn God's mercy into a basis for mocking

God's law and the need of atonement and all the rest of the stuff. But this is what

I saw that I wanted to respond to. Here's the description of the video. The Reverend Dr.

Louis B. Smeeds, the esteemed Christian theologian and ethicist, demolishes the arguments that Romans 1 condemns homosexuals.

He concludes that using the Bible against GLBT people is a heresy.

Well, I have a master's degree from Fuller Theological Seminary, so I know a lot about Louis Smeeds.

I think I may have mentioned the program that one of the last classes I took for my first master's degree was an ethics class.

And my ethics professor was likewise a graduate from Fuller and a student of Smeeds.

And it was in that ethics class that I debated the professor during the middle of the class on abortion.

Of course, I was opposed to it, and he was pro -choice.

Gives you some idea of the ethics of the system that we're dealing with over there at Fuller.

And so I thought, all right, here's someone. This is the kind of thing we do.

Here is a situation, it's an apologetic situation, where you're going to have a scholar, quote -unquote.

He was an ethicist. To call him a theologian or an ex -judge or something like that is really to take him way out of his field.

He died a couple of years ago in his 80s. And it shouldn't be overly surprising that he was involved with this because Mel White was first told that he was a homosexual man, and that's how

God made him, by a professor, an associate of Louis Smeeds, a female associate of Louis Smeeds, at Fuller Seminary.

So it shouldn't be overly shocking that that's part of what Soulforce is offering these days.

But I thought, okay, here's an apologetic situation. Here's going to be some claims that are going to be made, maybe some statements concerning the original tongues or the context of the passage or something like that.

And so we listened to the video, and I have some clips set up today, and that's not what we get.

And this, however, does give you a tremendously good insight into the kind of pure rhetoric.

And we still have to respond to rhetoric. I mean, if that's the best the other side has, you still have to at least provide a response to it. But to do so, we have to be able to see through the fact that this rhetoric is designed to not increase thinking or increase truthful contemplation of the

Word of God. It is meant to put you on a guilt trip, stop your thinking, and as a result, bring confusion.

And so the program began with Mel White, and this is setting the theme, and this is the constant theme of Soulforce.

The constant theme of Soulforce is to make you feel guilty if you believe the Bible. If you believe what the

Bible says, then you're a terrible, horrible, unloving, unkind, mean, nasty person, and you should absolutely be ashamed of yourself for being associated with any church that would be so unloving and so unkind as to not accept

God's gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender children. Because God made them that way, and if you ain't accepting them, then you're not accepting

God's children, you're a horrible Pharisee, and really, you're the one that should be thrown out of the church.

We should just turn the church over to the homosexuals because they have super rights. That's really what we're all about here.

So listen to Mel White as he starts this particular program. The Bible. I love this book.

I've spent my lifetime studying it. But I have to admit, it is the most dangerous book ever written.

For centuries, it's been used to support bloody crusades and shameful inquisitions.

In the last 200 years, it's been used to support slavery and apartheid and segregation.

Now it's being used to condemn and caricature God's gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender children.

Since my book, Stranger at the Gate, came out, Gary and I have received tens of thousands of letters from gay and lesbians in the closet who are victims of biblical misuse.

They live lives of guilt and fear and anger and loneliness. Here's just one of the letters

I've gotten recently. A paragraph from it. Listen. It is with great sense of anger and frustration and sadness that I write to let you know of a death in our

Christian family. CH received word earlier this week that her 28 -year -old nephew,

MB, hung himself. He was a gay man. He accepted his sexuality until he became a

Christian a few months ago. Understanding from the Bible and the church that he could not be both a

Christian and a gay man, Mark's suicide note addressed to God read, I don't know how else to fix this.

What you're about to hear about the

Bible, especially Romans 1, the chapter that's used most often to caricature and condemn us, what you're about to hear could save your life.

Dr. Lewis Smedes has for 50 years been a biblical scholar and author and teacher.

He is about to tell you what he feels about Romans 1 after studying it for a lifetime.

How long will it be? How many more people will have to die until we hear from Dr. Smedes and the others who are saying that the

Bible in Old and New Testaments both is about God's love for all people? Dr.

Smedes is a best -selling biblical author whose books To Forgive and Forget, The Art of Forgiving, and Keeping Hope Alive have been read by literally millions of people.

May the spirit of truth warm and change your heart as you listen to these profound and prophetic words about Romans 1.

Well, there you go, folks. If that doesn't lay out exactly what

I was saying, I don't know what does. Biblical misuse. It's the church's fault.

The violence being done to these individuals by misusing the

Bible, by using the Bible to beat people over the head. Of course, realize we're talking about individuals who are engaged in an activity the

Bible clearly says is opposed to God's purpose in their life. And so, in that context, anyone who is brought under conviction by the

Scriptures in regards to any kind of sin could then accuse the

Bible of abusing them. So, if you're brought under conviction for adultery, then you can say,

Well, the Bible is abusing me and misusing me because I feel so guilty about being in this situation.

If the Bible just wouldn't tell me that I'm a sinner, then all would be well.

And I would be happy. Well, there you have it.

But it's always put in this very syrupy, very emotional post.

Everything is designed to appeal to the postmodern mindset where feelings are the only thing that is really important.

We don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. God's feelings, we don't care what

God thinks. Man's feelings. I wonder if the emphasis on man's will has anything to do with that.

Man's feelings are all that really matters. So, there you have it.

There you have the setup. Then there's a transition to Lewis Smedes, longtime professor of ethics at Fuller Theological Seminary.

And I'm going, alright, here's good stuff on Romans 1 and the languages.

Let's listen to what Lewis Smedes had to say. I'm a minister in probably as conservative an evangelical church as you could find in the

United States. In many ways, it's a wonderful church. So I come out of that very conservative family, fundamentalist family, very conservative,

Calvinistic church. And I struggle with a lot of things besides the issue of homosexuality, for goodness sakes.

I spent 30 years of my life teaching Christian ethics. And I think it began there because I came to the conclusion that even though there are ideals and standards and norms, we're all born with different gifts and different sets of raw material.

I like to put it this way. We all are born with a story to write.

But we can only write it with the raw materials we're given. And what God wants of us is to write the best story we can out of what we have.

And for Dr. Smedes, you are a homosexual if God made you that way, and therefore you are to write your story out of what

God gives to you. But this is the kind of ethics that was done at Fuller, and it's only gotten worse as time has gone by, unfortunately.

But that's the kind of concept that you have being presented here. He continues on.

He continues on. Hello, come on, little thing, play for me here. Then I met a lot of other gay people, lesbian people, who suffered a lot at the hands of all things of their churches.

The one place, Mel, the one place on this earth where grace and love and fairness ought to be the theme of life for them.

Their gay children, their gay sons, their lesbian daughters are treated with such cruelty and injustice.

Nobody that I've met in these churches wants to be cruel and wants to be unjust and unfair in their treatment of them.

But their minds are so conditioned that when they are cruel to homosexual people, their minds tell them all that they are doing is eschewing, rejecting sin.

And it grieves me so terribly. I think that the church's treatment of homosexuality has become the greatest heresy in the history of the church.

It's living heresy, because it's treating God's children as if they're not

God's children. And if there's any heresy in the world, it's that. So, it isn't just that the church is making a mistake.

It's doing a great wrong. Well, there you go. What do you say to all of this?

I mean, for those of us who believe the Bible to be the word of God, we have here a man using his experience and his reasoning.

He has yet to give us any biblical foundation. He simply said, well, I've known these people, and I have decided to proclaim them to be

God's children. Despite anything else, they're God's children, and hence,

I guess, what you do is irrelevant. Sin is irrelevant.

Atonement, sacrifice, irrelevant. For many of the people, and again,

I'm a graduate of the seminary, and this was, I'd say I graduated in 89. Was it 89? Yeah, in 89. And even then, there are many people saying, look, you know, the

Lord's Supper is for Arab. You invite sinners to the Lord's Supper. This is how you do evangelism.

And there was just so much heterodoxy there already that I would imagine that the following 15 years have only made it just that much worse.

But I want you to catch this part once again. And it grieves me so terribly.

And what grieves him so terribly? Let me back this up just a little bit. What grieves him so terribly is those who speak out against homosexuality, they really think that they're just eschewing sin, that they really are addressing an issue of sin.

Now, for Lewis Smedes, that's something that no one can really do. And wants to be unjust and unfair in their treatment.

But their minds are so conditioned that when they are cruel to homosexual people, their minds tell them all that they are doing is eschewing, rejecting sin.

Now notice that. When they are cruel, what does it mean to be cruel? To identify homosexuality as sin. Therefore, if you exegete the scriptures, if you deal with the scriptures in their context and you deal with them in their original languages and you believe them, you have no choice but to be cruel.

Or, you need to look for some other way. And no one wants to be cruel. And so you must look for some other way to deal with the authority of scripture.

That is, you need to deny the authority of scripture. And that grieves me so terribly.

I think that the church's treatment of homosexuality has become the greatest heresy in the history of the church.

The greatest heresy in the history of the church. Let's ponder this for just a moment. First of all, we should all feel extremely, extremely guilty for having grieved

Dr. Smedes. Don't you feel guilty about that? Isn't that the postmodern way?

Dr. Smedes is grieved. And he speaks very passionately.

And so automatically we feel guilty. And you're saying, Oh, see, that's why people say you're so mean.

You have no feelings. Folks, it's just simply that I realize that what this man is saying grieves

God. And as I read the Psalms, I don't see that I have any basis for being concerned about him being grieved when he is grieving

God. This postmodernism is so opposite the

Christian worldview that the only people who would seriously buy into this are either those who have rejected openly the

Christian worldview, have no exposure whatsoever to it in the scriptures, or they are so much more influenced by it that they think that this feeling of compassion that you have is somehow godly.

It's not. It is not godly to feel grieved about someone who is twisting and distorting the scriptures and telling people who need to hear a message of judgment upon their sin and then forgiveness in Christ that they're just fine.

That's not being mean. That's not abusing these people.

It is these people who do not understand what the Christian concept of love is.

So I'm grieved the way the psalmist was grieved. He said his eyes shed water over those who trample upon God's law.

There's a reason why God has said what he has said about these things. Homosexuality kills.

It destroys. We don't show love for anyone by compromising, by being postmodernists at this point.

And to call this the greatest heresy of the church. Think of those who've denied the resurrection, denied the deity of Christ, denied justification and atonement.

And the greatest heresy of the church is that we look honestly at the scriptures.

We see what they say. We handle them correctly and realize this is not the way that God intends man and woman to relate to one another.

It destroys them. And that's a heresy? Unbelievable.

It's living heresy. Because it's treating God's children as if they're not

God's children. And if there's no heresy, if there's any heresy in the world, it's that. Really?

Is that so? God's children. How do you become one of God's children, Dr. Smedes? Well, I know you don't believe in inerrancy, so I don't know that you can really answer that question.

The best we could get would be a survey of the history of the church and the development of doctrine and the traditions that various groups have.

But no one could really answer that question. I'll never forget walking out of a systematic theology class at Fuller Seminary and we had just finished yet another survey of the development of doctrine.

And I remember walking along with an attorney friend of mine and he said to me, he said, well, that's all very interesting, but what do we believe about that?

And that's what the systematic theology class is all about. We never did get around to what we believe about that because that's really not the issue.

There is no way of really knowing what God's truth is anymore. Well, he did eventually, what he did then is this long section, it's only a 30 minute debate, but it's a presentation video.

Eventually, what he does is he talks about how the denomination he was in, which was some reformed denomination, eventually changed its view regarding divorce and that becomes his paradigm.

Back in the 50s, you excluded anyone who had been divorced and now they've changed that, they saw through their error and therefore they now accepted divorced people into the church.

And that becomes the paradigm for homosexuality. Hopefully, I don't have to explain the differences there, but...

So he then continues on. So, I'm saying, here are homosexual people who are committed to a lasting, enduring relationship of closeness and love to another person.

Now catch that, catch that. Folks, this is the essence of the kind of...

If you ever talk to someone who's exposed to soul force and you are the people, the audience of this program are the people who are going to be talking to these folks because you're the kind of people that are concerned about what

God's truth says. You want to apply it throughout life, all of your world view, you want to be under the

Lordship of Christ, therefore you are going to be encountering this situation.

And this is what you're going to hear. You're going to hear people saying, well look, all you're talking about is the wild homosexual lifestyle out there with multiple, multiple partners, which by the way, any honest survey says is the vast majority of homosexual relationships, especially male homosexual relationships.

But this is the terminology you're going to hear. To a lasting, enduring relationship of closeness and love to another person.

So here you've got the idea. Well see, we're talking about monogamous, committed relationships over life, loving relationships.

What's a loving relationship biblically? You see, our postmodernism tells us we can't even ask that question.

You can't say something about a relationship being loving or unloving. As long as you say you have a loving relationship, we have been taught that you must accept the claim at face value.

There can be no standards for defining what is and what is not loving.

Therefore, you have to accept that as a given. We can't.

We can't. The loving relationship of man and woman is a relationship where there is a compatibilism between the two.

There is something in the woman that meets the need of the man, like the key in the lock, and vice versa.

She was made to be a helpmate for him. It was not good that he should be alone. There is a correspondence between the man and the woman.

There can be no correspondence in a relationship with a mirror image.

God did not make us that way. And so to define this as a loving relationship is to reject the biblical basis of defining what love is.

And that is not a loving relationship. It is a selfish relationship because you're loving a mirror image of yourself.

And that is not what biblical love is all about.

They're wanting to fulfill the same needs as anybody else is. The very same.

And they love God. And they love Jesus. A lot of them more than I do.

Now, did you catch that? You see, in postmodern liberal theology, and that's what you've got here, in postmodern liberal theology, loving

God is an emotion. It has no content. There's no doctrine to it.

1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, don't worry about it. It's not relevant. We don't need to worry about those things.

Only fundamentalists who believe in inerrancy. Closed -minded people who never think are concerned about these things.

They love God. They love Jesus. And how do we know this? Do we know this because externally we can see their concern for God's truth?

No. Of course not. There's no external verification of loving

God, loving Christ, outside of merely your words. But we know biblically that's not true.

A person who says, I love God, but then hates his brother. See, there's a standard given in Scripture.

A person says, I love God, but denies that Jesus Christ has come to flesh. Who is he? He's the

Antichrist. Oh! Objective standards! Doctrine! Ah! Yeah, that's why it's there.

That's why it's part and parcel of the revelation of God. And so you hear all the time,

I love God! I love Jesus! You're so mean and hateful to say I don't. Well, when you're doing openly and without repentance the very things that Jesus died to bring redemption for, don't tell me you love

Him. That's really the issue, isn't it?

Why doesn't the church welcome them? Well, because of something that was said in Scripture.

Well, think of what the Lord said about divorced people. See, there's the connection.

Why doesn't the church? Because of Scripture. Because of Scripture. Remember how Mel Weiss wrote a dangerous book?

The most dangerous book ever written. And Mel Weiss could say, well, remember what the Lord said about divorce?

And we've accepted them now, therefore, well, we take our break.

We're going to continue. We've only got two and a half clips left, but one of them is fairly long.

So I don't know that we're going to get the calls today. We might. I'll let you know within the first ten minutes on the break on the other side, but we're going to take our break and then come back here on the dividing line.

We'll be right back. Praise myself tonight

In some religious place By weeping hard on your face Or saying prayers

To some dead saints you know Under the guise of tolerance, modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality.

Even more disturbing, some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior.

In their book, The Same -Sex Controversy, James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the

Bible's teaching on the subject, explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality, including

Genesis, Leviticus, and Romans. Expanding on these scriptures, they refute the revisionist arguments, including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law.

In a straightforward and loving manner, they appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for His people.

The Same -Sex Controversy, defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality.

Get your copy in the bookstore at almen .org. Answering those who claim that only the

King James Version is the Word of God, James White, in his book The King James Only Controversy, examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt

Scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith. In a readable and responsible style, author

James White traces the development of Bible translations, old and new, and investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611.

You can order your copy of James White's book, The King James Only Controversy, by going to our website at www .almen

.org. What is Dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book Chosen But Free?

A New Cult? Secularism? False Prophecy Scenarios? No, Dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

Calvinism. He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent, philosophically insufficient, and morally repugnant.

In his book, The Potters' Freedom, James White replies to Dr. Geisler, But The Potters' Freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed, it is a defense of the very gospel itself.

In a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate, James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called extreme

Calvinism, defines what the Reformed faith actually is, and concludes that the gospel preached by the

Reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture. The Potters' Freedom, a defense of the

Reformation, and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's Chosen But Free, you'll find it in the Reformed Theology section of our bookstore at aomen .org.

Keep your stance on the once for all delivered faith

And refuting the comments made by Louis Smeeds in a

Soulforce video titled There's a Wideness in God's Mercy, still in one of the cuts here.

Let's continue on listening to Louis Smeeds. There is a much better case in terms of obeying the

Bible for excluding remarried people than there is for excluding homosexual people.

Because the Lord says that very explicitly. And to get at a clear view of what

St. Paul says about homosexuality, you've got to wrestle and work and it's not all that clear.

Jesus, by the way, never having said a word about it. There's two of the primary arguments of the pro -homosexual quote unquote

Christian movement. A, it's really hard to understand, Paul.

And what they do is they just, you get all these different perspectives out there.

They've already written all these books. I've got them over on the shelf over there. And they're still cranking about. And each person takes sometimes multiple different views, frequently self -contradictory views.

They throw all this dirt out there from all these different perspectives and say, see, no one can really figure out.

I mean, we can't question the motivations of any of these scholars, can we?

And therefore, if they say it's difficult, then it must be impossible for us laymen so we really can't figure

Paul out. And of course, then, Jesus didn't say anything about it all.

He obviously didn't think it was important. And since we all love Jesus, then if Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, then, well, then we shouldn't either.

I hope your thinking is clear enough to give you an immediate response to such vacuous argumentation.

Are there many who promote all sorts of different understandings of Paul? Yes, but there are many who promote all sorts of different understandings of the

Resurrection, or the existence of God for that matter. The fact that there are differing opinions does not in and of itself say anything about the clarity of the

Revelation. Because opinions are not necessarily based upon the examination of facts.

And when it comes to dealing with sin, human beings have the tendency to be very selective in their viewing of factual data.

And when it comes to the Lord Jesus, when it comes to what he did or did not say, it is amazing that anyone could say what was just said and think they'd get away with it, but not all that amazing.

What do I mean? Well, it's obvious the Lord Jesus did not address many things in the Old Testament.

They were talked about bestiality. Does that mean he felt it was unimportant or good?

Of course not. He did not have to repeat everything in the first 39 books in only the first four of the

New Testament to somehow say that was valid or true. He identified himself with the one

God who had given that law, and he said he did not come to destroy it. Now, if you happen to interpret the phrase but to fulfill it as being to destroy it, then that's your problem, but that's not what he said.

And so, to say Jesus never said anything about that is a non -point, but you know why they can get away with it?

Let's face it, folks. Why can they get away with it? Because the vast majority of evangelicals, whether they know it or not, whether they even know what the term means or not, are functional antinomians.

Are they not? If you have an evangelical church where the Old Testament, where the 39 books of the

Old Covenant are considered somehow less scripture, well then, how can you avoid some level of antinomianism, some level of a disrespect for God's law, and hence confusion in the

New Testament about what Romans is talking about when it quotes from the Old Testament, or Hebrews when it quotes from the

Old Testament. It's no wonder, because most people never read the books that they're quoting from. And that's why they can get away with it.

Jesus never said anything about it. The immediate response, the immediate response of anyone should be, you've got to be kidding me.

Jesus affirmed the holiness and rightness of God's law in everything

He did. And you say He said nothing about it? What are you trying to say? That should be the immediate response, but it isn't.

We go, oh, yeah, I guess I don't remember Him saying that.

I'll have to get out my concordance and see if maybe, well, isn't that what we do?

That's what we do. Well, He did finally get around to Romans chapter 1, and here it is, and I'm going to have to hurry to get all this in.

I apologize. We did have a call earlier. We'll have to do that on Thursday. Thursday, 4 o 'clock.

This is the important section where we actually got to Romans 1, so we need to cover it. Now, I thought about Romans 1, and I was amazed at how

I had glossed over it thinking that I knew what it meant, and it suddenly dawned on me, on reading it,

I had it all wrong. I want to read a couple of verses from that chapter.

This is an exceedingly important thing for those who want to follow the Bible. In Romans 1,

St. Paul is talking about people who in their hearts knew God, but refused to know

Him in their heads, and therefore were ungrateful and never said thanks to God.

So God says, Alright, you want to live without Me? Then I'll let you.

See how you can do without Me. And God did that. And what happened to them was that they got enmeshed in a swarm of vices.

Listen to this. Murder and strife and deceit and craftiness, gossips, slanderers,

God -haters, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.

Oh, and there are some people amongst all of these who lust after people of their own sex.

How did they get that way? Who are these people? Well, they're the people who knew

God in their hearts and were ungrateful to Him. Now let's stop right there.

Do you hear what he's doing? This is some group. It's not everybody. This is just some special group.

The universality of the conviction of sin in Romans 1, which becomes foundational to understanding why

Paul then turns in Romans 2 to the Jews, and then in Romans 3 says, OK, now we've concluded everybody's under sin.

Here, what they do, and I had a homosexual quote -unquote pastor. I will not call a homosexual a pastor because of the fact that the

Bible precludes that, but a homosexual quote -unquote pastor, it should be quote -end -quote.

I know, I'm sorry. I apologize. Anyway, used this very same excuse on a radio program years ago.

This is actually what gave rise to the eventual writing of the same -sex controversy. And this is a special group of people.

And it's a very small group of people, actually. And so, since homosexuals love

God, and homosexuals acknowledge God, and homosexuals pray to God, and they don't suppress the knowledge of God, therefore they can't be these people.

This isn't describing me because I love God. That's the argumentation that's being used here.

The entire universality of the text, so clearly and plainly foundational to any meaningful exegesis, is thrown out.

Turned on its head. There are also people who worship snakes and other animals and human beings.

Now, I don't know who those people were, but I am certainly sure of this.

They're not the homosexual people that I know. See? There you go. I don't know who

Paul was talking about. They're bad people. I'm glad I don't live next to them.

I don't know who he was talking about, but it's not any of the homosexuals I know. Well, you know what?

It's not any of the adulterers I know. It's not any of the murderers I know. It's not any of the thieves I know.

It's not any of the liars I know. As long as the liar says, I love God. Okay, that just doesn't have anything to do with you.

I guess that's not a sin anymore. And they put this out as if it has meaning?

Wow! Talk about blindness. These are people...

Remember, God didn't reject them because they were homosexual. They became homosexual...

Well, they acted homosexual because God had abandoned them. Oh, catch that.

Catch that. He almost had it right there for a second. They became... Oh, wait a minute.

No one becomes homosexual. It's not... Oh, I'm sorry. They just are. So, they acted that way. These aren't actually even real homosexuals.

See? These are heterosexuals who are acting like homosexuals. And you'll hear that all the time. All the time you'll hear people say,

Well, in reality, what you've got going here is these... What God's condemning here is their unnaturalness is that they're not really homosexuals like we are.

They're fake homosexuals. They're actually heterosexuals who become...

who act... They're heterosexuals who act like they're homosexuals. See? And that's what's wrong because you should just be what you are.

As if that has something to do with what Paul was saying, right? Not the other way around. Very important.

So, I say, God abandoned people because they were ungrateful to him.

And they ended up lusting after their own sex and doing all sorts of unnatural things.

Now, those of you who have heard the Lynn debate know this is just one of the many, many excuses that's used.

Because Barry Lynn wouldn't even acknowledge these were unnatural things. These were sins at all.

So this is a whole different perspective. Let's just throw them all out there and hope that some of it sticks someplace along the way.

Some of it's going to work for somebody and help me to excuse my sin. Well, they're not the homosexual people

I know. Not the Christian homosexual people I know. Christian homosexual people

I know, most of them, have loved God all their lives. Christian homosexual people

I know, most of them have loved God all their lives. Let's try this in another. Christian adulterous people that I know have loved

God all their lives. Therefore, the prohibition against adultery has no meaning to them.

See? They weren't turned over to this. And therefore, since they love

God, what they do in their personal life, it's next to impossible to even say it.

They have thanked God all their lives. Sometimes it's been hard because they've had to thank

God in spite of mistreatment by God's people. Ah, here we go.

Okay, now they've... They're saints. These Christian homosexuals, they're saints because they've been persecuted by you terrible, mean, holy...

you holy roller people. You mean people, you've persecuted them. And therefore, they're actually better than you are.

That's what you're getting here. They couldn't be these people because the people

I know are not distinguished because they're lusting all the time. As far as I could tell, they don't lust any more than I have in my life.

Not only that, but St. Paul says, these are people who, after God abandoned them, decided to act as homosexual.

The people that I know and the people that I've heard about, homosexual people, didn't decide to become homosexual people.

There you go. There is probably the great apologetic. I didn't choose this.

I can't help it. I can't help it. It's beyond...

Well, you know, even if you were to say that, maybe what Paul said earlier about turning men over, hmm, yeah, that does seem to be there in the text, doesn't it?

They didn't exchange their natural inclinations for something else. This is what they discovered themselves to be.

They always were from as long as they could remember. Experience. They've given me their experiences, so I exegete the text of Scripture by experience.

It can't mean these folks. That's why you do exegesis by something other than experience.

So, the people that I know and love, many of them harassed and treated very abominably by my

Christian brothers and sisters, don't fit.

They just don't fit the people that St. Paul is talking about.

And if that is true, if that's true, as it obviously is, then the church's whole biblical reason for its exclusion from its fellowship of gay and lesbian

Christian people is all wrong. It is biblically all wrong.

It's biblically all wrong. The church has been wrong all along because my experience causes me to turn the text of Scripture on its head, exegetically twist it into a pretzel no one would ever recognize in the original context, and therefore the church, filled with mean, heartless, unloving people, is all wrong.

And yet that is what fills our seminaries today. That is what fills our seminaries today.

It's all over. I had to deal with it. I had to deal with it.

All over. One last clip real quick here. And it's more of the blame game.

Then the church's whole biblical reason for its exclusion from its fellowship of gay and lesbian

Christian people is all wrong. Exclusion from its fellowship of gay and lesbian

Christian people is all wrong. All wrong. It is biblically all wrong.

Biblically. All wrong. And not only wrong, but cruel. Cruel. And mean.

Mean. And devastating. Devastating. And I have wondered,

I've just marveled at my Christian homosexual friends that so many of them still, still love the

Lord as much as ever. And I think if there's anything that witnesses to God's work in their lives is their ability to keep their grace and keep their faith in the face of the treatment

God's people, not all God's people, but some of God's people have given them. So what's the evidence these people are actually true believing

Christians? That they've kept the faith in the face of the mean, terrible, nasty, horrible church which has dared to believe the word of God and its message about sin and redemption and identified their lifestyle the way the

Bible does. You see why this works for people? You see why this functions for people?

Why it communicates to people? Because so many in our churches do not stand under the authority of the word of God.

They do not have presented to them on a regular basis the necessity, the need to honor

God by honoring His word. And as a result, they do not have a passion for hearing

God's word. And therefore, whatever anyone does, folks, a

Christian, one indwelt by the Holy Spirit, should expect from those in leadership an accurate,

God -honoring handling of the word of God. And they should be offended when they are given pablum in its place.

And in churches today, where entertainment and fluff theology has taken the place of the exegesis of the word of God from the pulpit, it is no wonder that this kind of emotionally laden, illogical, irrational, eisegetical teaching can make headway.

It's no wonder. If your church doesn't make the proclamation of the word of God central to its worship, then it's creating people, as a result, who will be subject to, liable to, this very kind of deception.

Because this is deception. This man was deceived. And as a result of his deception, he has deceived others.

That's what it's all about. So there you go, folks. That's the kind of stuff you're going to hear.

You're going to hear people. When you have conversations with folks, they're going to take that stuff. And they're not going to be as smooth as Louis Smedes.

They're not as polished as Mel White. But they're going to take that information and they're going to present it to you.

And so my question to you, is what are you going to do? How are you going to respond?

Can you do so in such a way that honors God's word, that challenges them to listen to what the word of God says?

Are you going to be able to go to Romans 18? Are you going to be able to deal with the text in a meaningful fashion?

I hope and pray you will. I hope and pray that you will. This is no longer an issue that we can just simply say,

I'm going to leave that to the pastor. Folks, this is our society. This is what we live in.

We are facing a day when these folks have already been given and are demanding more super rights.

There are nations where we can't say what I'm saying right now anymore without fear of governmental interference.

And it's coming, folks. There are people in this nation that want to see that happen. They want to see the ability to sue on the basis of what has been said in this program today.

There are. You know it. Well, I hope that's been useful to you.

I did want to, and I was going to do this at the beginning because it's sort of hard to make a transition in the last two minutes of the program to another subject.

But I did want to mention, and this is a completely different subject, but you know, it's not completely because I'm hoping that these men, as the

Lord has set them aside to the eldership of the church, these men will model exactly what I was just saying.

But we've had a number of people in our chat channel over just the past month, just an odd situation here, but just over the past month we've had three men that I know of in our chat channel set apart as elders in their churches, regular participants in our channel.

And I believe the first was Eric Nielsen, now

Elder Eric, and then the man we call Phibisheth, Eddie, was made an elder as well.

And then I just got news today, just in email today, in fact, that RDD, our good friend

Ronnie Brown, was likewise made an elder just this past Sunday. And so three of the men who participate in the channel, as time allows them to do so, good friends in the cyber world, have been set aside by the

Lord, by their congregations, to the service of the ministry, as elders in their church. And so we wanted to acknowledge that and to thank the

Lord for the fact that He continues to gift His church. And of course my prayer for those men is that they will not fear the face of men, that there will be an abiding love in their hearts for the

Word of God that will survive, survive not only forces outside the church, but to be perfectly honest with you, survive what

I have found to be significantly a greater attack as an elder, and that is those who say they're within the church.

The greatest discouragement to an elder in the church is not dealing with the external attacks.

It's dealing with those within the church that do not live in a way that is consistent with their own profession.

It is the internal, it's the false brethren within the church that are by far a significantly greater cross to bear in the eldership.

And so I pray that God will bless these men, lift them up, give them great joy as they teach and preach the

Word of God, and they will do so in its fullness, that they will demonstrate an honor for God by exegeting the text of Scripture and by continuing to hold firm to its inspiration and its inerrancy.

Congratulations, gentlemen. Thanks for being friends. We'll see you Thursday afternoon, 4 o 'clock, here on The Dividing Line.

God bless. We must contend for the faith the

Fathers fought for. We need a new Reformation day. Brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries.

If you'd like to contact us, call us at 602 -973 -0318 or write us at P .O.

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