Christianizing the Nations? (w/ Chris Gordon) | Theocast

Theocast

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:02

Hi, this is Justin. Today on Theocast is part two of a conversation that John and I recently had with Chris Gordon, who is the host of Abounding Grace Radio and the pastor of Escondido United Reformed Church out there on the

00:17

West Coast. We continue our conversation as preachers of God's Word, and we talk about the

00:23

Great Commission. What is it? Is it a call and a commission to Christianize the nations, or is it a call to preach

00:29

Jesus Christ, his person and his work, for the forgiveness of sins? And I trust this is a dead giveaway.

00:35

Our answer is it's the latter. We hope that you enjoyed that conversation with Chris and are encouraged in the

00:41

Lord Jesus Christ as we talk about those things. And then over in SR, John and I may or may not talk a little bit about the topic of theonomy.

00:49

We trust that interests you. Hope you enjoy the episode, guys. Stay tuned. If you'd like to help support

00:55

Theocast, you can do that by leaving us a review on iTunes and subscribing on your favorite podcast app.

01:01

You can also follow us on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Plus, we have a Facebook group if you'd like to join the conversation there.

01:08

Thanks for listening. Welcome to Theocast, encouraging weary pilgrims to rest in Christ.

01:25

Conversations about the Christian life from a confessional, Reformed and pastoral perspective. If you want to know what we're about here at Theocast, we are attempting to clarify the gospel and the purpose of the kingdom of Christ.

01:38

Your hosts today are John Moffitt, who is pastor of Grace Reformed Church in Spring Hill, Tennessee. And I'm Justin Perdue, pastor of Covenant Baptist Church in Asheville, North Carolina.

01:48

John, good to be with you around the mic again today. My brother, I've enjoyed our pre -recording conversation, as I always do, maybe in a pointed way today as we were talking about our lives and ministries.

01:58

And man, it's good to have friends and other brothers who are in similar positions in different churches with whom we can talk.

02:05

So grateful for you, dude, and grateful for the Lord's grace to me in you, through you, all those things.

02:11

Why don't you tell the people, they love the announcements, right? I mean, this is why people tune in. Tell people things that they need to know about Theocast and things that are going on.

02:20

Well, to add to what you said, Galatians 6 -2 says that when we bear each other's burdens, we fulfill the law of Christ.

02:29

And there's a joy in fulfilling the law of Christ, and I think both of us experienced that as we cared for each other this morning, as an encouragement to anyone, that the

02:36

Word of God does not return void. So to hear it, to believe it, and obey it, is a good thing. It's a good thing, all in the mercy and grace of God.

02:44

Yeah, real quick, man, this has been a long time coming. People apologize for my congestion, it's that time of year.

02:51

Yeah, I'm fighting something too, so we'll see how we do today. Yeah. One of the questions that people ask us all the time is, is there a good church in our area?

02:59

And so, there is an official Theocast Church Finder. Now, just so you know, it's growing, you know, there are some churches on there now, but if you're a part of a really good...

03:08

So what you're saying is it wasn't built in a day. No, but if you're a part of a confessionally reformed church that teaches the same thing as Theocast, then please add it to our church finder, and I think it'll encourage a lot of people.

03:23

So, that's an announcement. We've got some other stuff coming your way, but, you know, we'll save that for another time.

03:30

And yeah, that's pretty much, that's all, that's the big announcement. I'm pretty excited about it. There are some really good churches on there, like, really good churches.

03:40

So if you're listening to this, put your church on there. We want to know about it so we can send people your way.

03:46

So, Justin, today's part two. Really fun conversation. So tell us a little bit about our conversation with Chris.

03:54

I'll tell us about the trip, and then you can tell us about the conversation. For those of you that don't know, a couple of weeks ago,

04:00

Justin and I were able to go to West Cal and be a part of their conference there, and while we were there, we had the opportunity to meet and spend time with Dr.

04:08

Chris Gordon and... He's not Dr. Oh, sorry. Well, I shall remove it.

04:16

Who is the pastor of Escondido United Reformed Church and also the host of Abound in Grace Radio, and we just had an amazing time, not only getting to know him, but sitting around the mic on Sunday afternoon and talking about the glories of Christ in preaching.

04:30

So Justin, tell us about what this segment is about, because it's a one long recording, but we broke it up into segments.

04:36

Yeah, really great time with Chris, and so thankful for him and his like -mindedness, and we were encouraged in the faith.

04:42

Like you and I were talking to each other this morning, we were encouraged in talking with Chris and spending time with him. And this portion of the conversation, we get a little bit into the

04:52

Great Commission, Matthew 28, and what the Great Commission is and what the Great Commission isn't. The Great Commission is not a call or a commission to us to Christianize the nations, but it is to, in fact, preach the forgiveness of Christ in Christ's name.

05:08

And so we're not preaching some kind of Christianizing the nations message. We are preaching the fact that we are saved from the wrath and condemnation of the law.

05:19

We're saved from the wrath of God. We are imputed with righteousness on account of what Christ alone has done.

05:25

And so we talk about preaching the need of the sinner. We talk about preaching Christ for the sinner.

05:30

We talk about preaching and sanctification. So how do we think about preaching the

05:35

Word and the transformation of people's lives? We talk about union with Christ and how union with Christ is effectively the good news, not just for justification, but for sanctification and eternal life.

05:48

So it's a really good edifying conversation. We hope that you enjoy it. And on the back end, so we're going to send you there and let you hear that conversation with Chris Gordon.

05:58

And then when that concludes, John and I will be back and we'll close this episode and then head into SR.

06:06

You know, what's interesting is there's all this talk chatter today about the

06:11

Great Commission. What's interesting is you mean the Christianizing of the nation?

06:17

That's where I was going to go. Justin, don't provoke me. That's of course what I was going to go do.

06:23

Are you guys Christianizing the nation? So yeah, Matthew 28, that's how it's typically now understood in our

06:30

American moment. But it's interesting. It's interesting. Put that 28,

06:38

Matthew 28 in conjunction with this. Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures and said to them, thus it is written that the

06:47

Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead and that repentance and what we talked about earlier, forgiveness of sins, right?

06:55

Should be proclaimed in his name to all the nations. Yes. Okay. So when we're talking about discipling the nations, scripture interprets scripture.

07:03

And then he says, beginning from Jerusalem, you are witnesses of these things.

07:08

What's the witness? The preaching of Christ of all of scripture. You're a witness to the nations and here's what you're to go do.

07:17

So what do we find in Acts? Well, you know, Pentecost, we find tongues of fire. What are those tongues of fire?

07:23

They grabbed Old Testament passages and they started preaching Jesus and they shook the nations. And at Pentecost, we have a reversal of Babel, right?

07:37

At Pentecost, we have a reversal of Babel. We're talking redemptive historically here. You know, at Babel, what?

07:42

I mean, God comes and scatters language. Men are scattered because of sin and pride, right?

07:48

And their attempt to work their way to heaven, right? And to be great. Well then at Pentecost, God comes down to unify language by the spirit and bring men from every nation into the one body of Christ.

08:00

Right. That's right. Good. Right. Yeah, that's so good. No, you're you're pointed. I'm sorry, but that was just a brilliant point.

08:08

I'll just say it. Theonomists are being and Christian nationalists have been using Matthew 28 to argue.

08:16

See, right here, we need to be going out and teaching the law of God to the nations because that's what

08:21

Christ taught. And the point of it is, all right, well, where else where else is Christ commissioning people?

08:28

Because I actually don't think that's what he's saying. But we're Christianizing nations. What he's saying is you're proclaiming the and listen to the defense of the

08:36

Theonomist. For those of you yelling at me, I know you guys believe that the way that the world is

08:42

Christianized is through the proclamation of the gospel, not through the law. So to their defense, I'll give them that.

08:48

But the point of it is not to start to Christianize nations. That's not what he's saying.

08:54

He's like, you are now not preaching the gospel to the Jews only.

08:59

It's as promised to Abraham. It's going to bless the nations. So take this good news of me that was promised to you by the prophets of old and now proclaim it to everyone because it's not applicable to the

09:13

Jews. It's applicable to everyone now. So when Paul and we can see this proven, it's not like we're just standing back and making conjectures here trying to figure this out.

09:25

We can see this proven in the book of Acts throughout the book of Acts. We're projecting our theology on it. Yeah. Well, and I can prove it's interesting.

09:34

He goes in front of Bernice and Agrippa. Now, this is a bad scenario.

09:39

This is a wicked Agrippa, Herod Agrippa. We know what he did to the prophets, his fathers.

09:47

We know what the Herods did. He was the worst abusive unjust ruler of the day.

09:54

I mean, another Agrippa was eaten up by worms, right? So you see how offensive this whole, we think of Herod the

10:00

Fox. Here's Herod Agrippa. He's married Bernice at 12. She's 12 years old.

10:07

I mean, this whole thing. And after she had been, I think, divorced, I mean, it's just a sick, twisted scenario.

10:16

It's a human heart on display. Yeah. And what is Paul's message? What is Paul's message to him?

10:21

Listen to this. Now think about what we just said. You're going to go out, said Jesus, and preach to the nations, the what?

10:27

Forgiveness of sins. That's right. Amen. Here we go. And he gives his testimony.

10:33

But rise, stand on your feet, for I have appeared to you of this purpose, to appoint you as servant and witness to the things which you have seen in me, and those things which

10:41

I will appear to you, delivering you from your people and from the Gentiles to whom

10:47

I'm sending you to, and what we just say in Luke 24, what had to happen?

10:52

Eyes opened? To open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins.

11:05

Come on. And a place among those who are sanctified by, I mean, so here he could have gone on and said, you, you wretch, you have persecuted the prophets.

11:16

You have done this and this and this and this. And what is the burden of Paul before these people before to Nero? Why do you want to go to Nero?

11:22

To preach the gospel. Yes. The forgiveness of sins. Church is all sideways.

11:27

That was the pinnacle too. There wasn't like, that was where he started. Then he had something else to do. Peter talks this way in the book of acts.

11:34

Also acts 13 in Antioch, right? Paul says the same thing. Let it be known.

11:39

Want to talk about, you want to talk about the whole scripture, how it hangs together, old

11:45

Testament, new Testament, all this stuff. Acts 13, 38, 39, let it be known to you. Therefore brothers says

11:50

Paul that through this man, forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. And by him, everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

12:01

Yeah. I always like to say, if Gavin Newsom were standing in front of you today, or who's your governor, you have a good governor?

12:08

We've not really. Roy Cooper. I got Gavin. Right. He's probably the most famous of all the governors.

12:17

He's very famous. Our governor is not liked. Yeah. If president Biden or the vice president

12:23

Kamal Harris were standing in front of you, what's your primary objective with them? What would you say?

12:29

Get them to adhere to the law. Yeah. I mean, you know, or, or would you think a little bit?

12:35

That was a joke by the way. Zacchaeus, I'm coming to your house today.

12:41

Yeah. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna preach to you good news. Yeah. And by the way, once that good news gets into your heart, that guy's going to know what he's going to say.

12:50

I'll, I'll shut down the abortion clinic. Right. I'll go give back fourfold. Right. You know, right. So exactly.

12:56

The point is, is they stayed focused on the mission and this is so big for us today.

13:02

Yeah. And what's interesting though, too, is that there are people that we've seen like centurions who were able to stay in their positions, but that's not always the case.

13:10

If you're in a, if you're in a system that's really kind of run by Satan, it's, let me ask you guys this, how many conservative, real conservative, good, godly

13:20

Christians do you know that make it high up in office? Yeah. Not very many. Why? Because it's hard to do that.

13:26

Right. And so it's not shocking if someone really does understand the gospel and they embrace it, that they're end up going to losing their influence, which is why

13:33

I don't think we should put a lot of hope and a lot of weight and going, well, we just need to, I always was bothered by when a famous person came to Christ and they're like,

13:41

Oh, just imagine if, you know, Tiger Woods came to Christ, what he could do. And I'm like, God doesn't need

13:46

Tiger Woods to come to Christ to accomplish this mission. The gospel is what's powerful, not a man or his fame or his influence.

13:54

And I think we need to remember that in that kind of your point is that it doesn't matter who you're faced with. We're going to give them the gospel and that's the goal.

14:03

Yeah. So thinking back to preaching Christ from all of the scripture, we've said some, I think really,

14:09

I mean, from my own heart, edifying things, encouraging things. Well, that's what I try to do is edify your heart. That was my great goal today.

14:16

Did I accomplish it brother? In service, you absolutely did. And even now, I mean, I like to share all things with you.

14:22

I'm always encouraged to spend time. We've spent a good bit of time together this weekend. You guys have been such a blessing.

14:29

I'm so glad we got to connect. Same. And it really is an edifying thing to sit with brothers of like mind and talk through things like this.

14:38

Yeah. So preaching Christ from all the scripture, every man around this table believes that the point of the whole

14:44

Bible is God's plan of redemption accomplished through Christ. Right. And we could go applied by the spirit to the praise of God's glorious grace.

14:52

We all agree on this. Well, how insane would it be then for us to preach any passage of the scripture and not do that in light of that main point?

15:02

You know, we've talked about, and you tried to illustrate this in the past. Let's just say that you're reading a story on like Vince Lombardi's Green Bay Packers or something and just how great of a dynasty they were.

15:15

And there's this interesting anecdote in there about this one particular player and how he liked to polish his shoes or something.

15:23

And I think the tendency amongst many evangelical preachers would be to get in the pulpit and talk five points on polishing the shoes.

15:32

Yeah. When in reality, that must be understood in light of the context of the dynasty of the

15:38

Packers and Vince Lombardi and the greatness that that was, or it's just kind of isolated over here.

15:43

And I don't know that we're saying anything distinctly Christian because there's a lot of stuff in many pulpits that frankly, you don't need to be a

15:51

Christian to affirm. Right. I mean, there are a lot of Muslims and Mormons and any number of people who would agree with us on issues of morality and discipline, all of these kinds of things.

16:03

And so I think for us, as we come to any passage of scripture, man, the conviction of the preacher has to be, how do

16:09

I understand this text in light of Christ? How do I herald Christ to these people? And we do that through a number of different things.

16:15

We could talk covenant theology, we could talk law and gospel. But before we get there, I want you guys, any other general thoughts about Christ -centered preaching?

16:21

I want to talk about a word that's, we're not doing this intentionally, but we are, we're taking it for granted.

16:28

When you say Christ, you literally mean the chosen Messiah. Right. Sure. Because when you say it, the anointed one, the chosen one, when we say when you need to be preaching

16:39

Jesus, a lot of men are like, I preach Jesus all the time. But what they preach is Jesus morality. Sure. Right. They preach

16:44

Jesus law. Or Jesus ethics or whatever. Or Jesus ethics, right? Like I am preaching

16:50

Jesus all the time, but you're preaching Jesus as an ethical example for the individual.

16:56

You aren't preaching Jesus as Messiah, chosen one to be the propitiation for our sins.

17:02

Right. Right. The imputation of his righteousness, the active obedience of Christ on our behalf. Let's talk active and passive.

17:08

Come on now. Union with Christ. Right. So we emphasize, well, like, you know, we need to be like, we need to be the hands and feet of Jesus, you know?

17:17

And that's what we end up emphasizing. But the hands and feet of Jesus means nothing to me if I am under the wrath of God.

17:24

Yeah. Right. See, and that's, that's a big point. By the way, when you say like, come on now, like this is like charging me up.

17:31

I'm a reformed guy. You guys are, you know, we talked about the Baptist tradition. That's right. When somebody like says amen from the service, cause

17:38

I never really get those. Or somebody says, come on now from the back. I turn it up about, you know, about 50.

17:44

Say it. Hey, say it to him, Chris. Hi brother. I've never said this before, but John, come on now.

17:52

Come on now. How did I do? Did I do good? Right. That was a really good point. Thanks. Because, um, this is what we're forgetting.

18:01

We're forgetting the wrath and judgment of God. What, you know, what do people, and this is so basic, you know, but we got to keep hitting it.

18:09

What do people need to be safe from? What's happening? People are dying. People are dying tonight.

18:16

People, you know, and you're going to come in and spend, you know, that person you saw dear pastor this week.

18:24

Um, you may not see next week. That's true. So you're going to come in and talk about how to tie shoelaces.

18:32

You're going to come in and talk about how to put on shoes. You know, seriously, um, you can tell me about sanctified living.

18:40

That's important, but please show me my savior. Please show me, please show me the glorious person and work of the one who is true and eternal

18:51

God, who would clothe himself in my humanity and come down to the sin curse world and deal with my sin and bear that and go all the way facing the horrors of hell for me so that I don't have to do that.

19:04

You know, that's, what's going to pick me up. And that's, what's going to help me because every week I'm running around in the slime in the muck of sin.

19:11

And I'm like Isaiah, I'm among those with unclean lips. And you know, the reality is when the spirit is working, convicting the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, he's also convicting

19:23

God's people of that. And we need the refreshment of the gospel every week to help us and lift us and bless us.

19:33

So the thing that I need to hear every week, Heidelberg question 60, let's go there.

19:39

How are you righteous before God? When in Escondido.

19:49

So Heidelberg 60, right? How are you righteous before God? It is only through faith in Jesus Christ for, even though these things are true with me, that I have broken all of God's commands,

19:59

I've never kept a single one of them. And I'm still inclined toward all evil by sheer grace, right?

20:05

On account of grace and mercy alone, God accounts to me. He imputes to me the perfect holiness, righteousness, and satisfaction of Christ.

20:13

It is as though I've never sinned or been a center. And it is as though I've been as perfectly obedient as Christ was obedient.

20:19

I need that man, the active and passive obedience of Christ, the active obedience, meaning his life, his perfect fulfillment of the law, what he says in Matthew 5, 17, that I don't think

20:29

I've come to abolish the law and the prophets. I've come to fulfill it. I've come to do everything that God requires for righteousness.

20:36

And we receive what Christ has accomplished by faith. We need to hear that. I've come to make satisfaction for your sins.

20:43

I've come to appease the wrath of God that your sins deserve. I've come to fulfill not only the law's righteous requirements,

20:49

I've come to fulfill its penalty so that you are then free. And as our confession says in 11 .1

20:55

on justification, God imputes to us the active and passive obedience of Christ as our whole and only righteousness.

21:03

Whole meaning it's all of it. Only meaning it's the only one we'll ever have. And I'm struck what you were saying about how people are dying and we're under the wrath of God and all these things.

21:14

Calvin's right on justification. Like what he says in the institutes, when he says that the entire conversation about justification has to begin at the judgment seat of God.

21:23

Because we would not talk about the righteousness of our works like we do, even in the church.

21:30

We would not talk about it the way that we do if we were struck by a sense of the righteousness and holiness of God in the judgment.

21:41

If you're new to Theocast, we have a free ebook available for you called Faith versus Faithfulness, a primer on rest.

21:48

And if you've struggled with legalism, a lack of assurance, or simply want to know what it means to live by faith alone, we wrote this little book to provide a simple answer from a

21:57

Reformed confessional perspective. You can get your free copy at theocast .org

22:02

slash primer. You know, the Bible is written many times and Paul often uses legal language.

22:11

And I just want to say when you're talking about preaching Christ, often Satan comes and he's the great accuser.

22:19

And so you have Satan, I'm there on the stand, I'm being, I can feel it.

22:25

Yeah, he's right. He's right. I've done that. I've done that. I have failed. I have filed. And the judge is standing there and saying, you are guilty.

22:31

And then we as pastors say, excuse me for a moment. I need to read you something that, um, this man's lawyer wrote down for him.

22:38

His name is Jesus. Let me write down why he's not guilty. That's what we do every week.

22:45

We open the scriptures and say, this is why you are set free. This is why you are not guilty.

22:51

Not only are you not guilty, the judge has adopted you and all the required obedience and righteousness that you have not done.

23:00

Oh, by the way, this is what he said in his book. You have done them in Christ. It's Zechariah three, man.

23:06

It's Joshua and Satan stands there to do what he stands there to accuse him.

23:12

That's right. And, and, and to point out how filthy his garments are. And it's the angel of the Lord who says to him that remove the filthy garments from him.

23:21

And to Joshua, he says, behold, I've taken your iniquity away from you and I will clothe you. That's right. Yeah.

23:27

Yeah. You know, I think, I think what some would hear us saying and say, listen, you know, what kind of place then are you guys given to sanctification?

23:36

We say a lot, Chris, let's talk about that. Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, I, I get this frequently, right?

23:42

I mean, we, we can talk about the Lloyd Jones comment. You know, was Paul accused of being a legalist or an antinomian hands down?

23:51

He was everywhere accused of being an antinomian, right? So people who flippantly make that charge should take a pause.

23:59

You would probably put Paul in the same category, you know? So it's important to, it's important to think about that.

24:04

You know, it's important to think about that, but I think that the sort of fear is, and it's kind of a control factor of pastors.

24:12

Listen, you know, Justin, you're not quite sanctified as me. I have a level of sanctification

24:18

I expect you to be at. I expect you to achieve it. The reality is

24:23

I look out in my congregation, not quite as sanctified as I want. What am

24:29

I going to do about that? What am I going to do about that? Well, I'm going to, I'm going to bring this under control and I'm going to deal with this.

24:38

You know, I'm going to strike the rock, Moses. I'm going to bring this, I'm going to bring this and get it under control.

24:44

And I think the expectations, and again, then what we do is we fall into the

24:50

Galatian error is that we're constantly then making our standard of righteousness.

24:56

And by the way, the Heidelberg is really clear on this. It makes those who critique antinomianism very nervous. Even the holiest in this life only make a small beginning in this new obedience.

25:06

So I always ask those... You prayed that this morning. Yeah. So what about the least holy? That's right. You know, what about the least holy?

25:12

That's right. That's true. So the point is, is that what will... We're not against it. We preach the third use of the law.

25:18

I love the law of God. The law of God is wonderful. And the third use of the law quickly is to guide our lives in Christ, to guide our living.

25:25

Absolutely. It's not to gain righteousness. We have that. Right. How do we know what's good for our neighbor and honors God from law?

25:31

Right. I can tell you this much. If the pastor's coming at me and I don't get a sense that he's for me, and I don't get a sense that he has in his best interest to show the glories of the

25:43

Savior to me, I don't care how hard he pounds the law at me, it will not sanctify me.

25:49

That's right. And it will not change me. It will. It's kind of like when I say, isn't this sad?

25:55

We believe in a second service on the Sabbath. We believe two services are important in our tradition.

26:02

So if I get up Sunday morning and I say, you guys need to be here tonight because you're not really being faithful Christians.

26:11

If not, every time I do something like that, and by the way, I've learned my lesson. Every time

26:17

I do that, the church is that much more empty. If I get up and say, call the

26:23

Sabbath a delight, tonight you get the great privilege. It's a lifeline, not a burden. To come hear your

26:28

Savior. That's right. And I promise you, I'm going to give you, I worked hard this week. I'm going to give you by God's grace in the spirit,

26:34

I'm going to give you Christ. And we're going to look at the scriptures together and I'm going to feed you with his word. It's going to be a whole different experience.

26:41

The law is powerless to change the heart and to sanctify the heart.

26:46

I mean, how many times does Paul and Hebrews have to say this, right? It's powerless. And we don't really believe that because we keep going back to the law.

26:53

You know, I said this the other day, just because there's a sign that says you should drive 40.

26:59

My heart doesn't go, man, I want to drive 40. It just never does that. Right. And this is why the gospel is so powerful because the gospel is the agency by which it sanctifies the heart.

27:11

This goes back to preaching Christ is that if you want to see people sanctified and love Christ, preach

27:17

Christ we love because he first loved us. So like what you guys are saying when it comes to justification, the law cannot give life.

27:28

It can only kill when it comes to sanctification. The law can only guide. It cannot transform.

27:33

That's right. Right. Where does the power come from? Right. It's only it's word and sacrament.

27:38

It's the proclamation of Christ in the word. And it's the receiving of Christ by faith in the table. Right. That's what empowers sanctification.

27:45

It's the ordinary means of grace, which is another conversation, perhaps. I want to speak briefly on the antinomianism thing.

27:53

Where do we see Paul respond to this? Anticipate this objection most pointedly in the scriptures. It's Romans six, one and following.

27:59

Right. Because he's he's just been talking about how when we were God's enemies, Christ died for us and how having been justified by faith, we now have peace with God and we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

28:10

So much for final justification, by the way. You know, I mean, to be presently justified is to be finally saved.

28:15

I mean, amen, somebody. Right. And then so come on. So. Right. But then.

28:20

So then Romans 5, 12 to 21, Paul is arguing for the legitimacy of representation. Right.

28:26

Adam represented us all in the garden. Clearly, it's legitimate then that Christ represents everyone who's united to him.

28:31

And we're justified by his obedience and through what he accomplished. So then he says where sin abounded, grace abounded all the more.

28:38

He anticipates the objection. OK, he says, by no means. And if he were an evangelical preacher, he would say, by no means, here's all the things you need to do.

28:49

Here's what the law says. That's not what he does. He says, by no means. You've been united to Christ.

28:55

You've been baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ. You need to set free. You think of yourself an entirely different way.

29:00

You've been set free from the tyranny of sin. You're no longer under the law. You're under grace. You've now become obedient from the heart.

29:06

Right. Right. Right. Right. Not out of fear and learn to think, you know, he uses that word reckon there, which is interesting, you know, reckon to yourselves what's already been reckoned to you.

29:17

It's really interesting the way he phrases it. What he's essentially saying is you need to learn to think of yourself in sanctification as righteous.

29:26

That's right. It's a really important point. So we could talk about Romans 7, but Romans 8, 1 through 4, where he says there's therefore now no condemnation.

29:36

And he talks about how we now the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not right by the flesh, but by the spirit.

29:45

Yeah. A lot of evangelicals read that and they see in that verse, spirit empowered obedience.

29:50

The spirit empowers us to fulfill the law. Calvin says in his commentary that people who say that are introducing a gloss that is entirely foreign to the apostle.

29:59

That's right there. He's talking about the obedience of the active obedience of Christ and his righteousness imputed to us.

30:06

So yet again, there we are. What's what is our righteousness? Who? Yeah, it's Christ. I don't even go to the end of Colossians where he warns against don't let people put this, these laws back on you as they're required for controlling the flesh.

30:19

He says, how is the class controlled? It has an appearance of man -made religion, but it's of no value.

30:25

Where does he point you to? He says, look to Christ. It's really hard because this is all about, like, if you think about every form of the gospel in justification and sanctification, we're looking to Christ, the object reality, the object of reality outside of ourselves for our salvation.

30:41

And then there's this sense of like, okay, now that I'm in, I've got this. And then Paul goes, oh,

30:46

I'm sorry. No, no, no. Your sanctification is also outside of you. First Corinthians one 30.

30:51

Well, and I mean, I think it was James Boyce years ago who made this point. I want to give credit to where credit's due, but he, he said it.

30:59

He said a lot of good things. And you know, in the mini Ordo of Romans eight, he leaves out sanctification.

31:05

Oh, that's interesting. It's very interesting. Um, those whom he called him, he could read it, right?

31:10

Yeah. Romans eight. Yeah. Let me get there. Um, it's, it's a really, those who me for new, he called those who doesn't want it because after he's been justified and glorified, yeah, he doesn't want this, this great case.

31:22

He's made about justification, no condemnation to think it rests now on sanctification. So that's what he says here.

31:28

He says, um, and those of me predestined, he called those of me called, he justified.

31:34

He skips sanctification. Those of me justified. He also glorified. Oh, you antinomian

31:40

Gordon. What did you just do? No, no, no, no. That's the apostle Paul like Romans, uh, eight verse say 30.

31:49

Come on with it. Hey, come on with it. Shake that bush. Now that does that make me not want to preach the law. I'm going to go preach the law.

31:56

And, but, but I think your guest speaker is going to be out. You're going to be up tonight. So first Corinthians one 30 though,

32:02

Christ has become to us what wisdom from God, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. I mean, that's, that's a big deal.

32:09

Hebrews 10 14 that he has perfected for all time. Those who are being sanctified.

32:15

Right? So it's even in this whole sanctification business. I mean, this is a Galatians three issue. This was brought up earlier.

32:20

All right. You begun by the spirit, are you going to be perfected by the flesh? Of course not. It's absurd. Christ, Christ spirit at work in you is

32:28

Philippians two 12 and 13. It's all of these things. We're sanctified by Christ in us.

32:33

But don't you always feel like you have to give all these qualifications? Well, don't you feel like endless, like an endless qualification because you know, well, because somebody out there is like, yeah, yeah,

32:43

I know. There's somebody listening to a fee day. I'm, I'm going to go post a Facebook post right now and I'm going to call these guys names.

32:50

I mean, that's what they're going to do with this. And you say, Whoa, let me show you the place where I've preached a third use of the law.

32:56

I love the law of God. Okay. I delight in God's law. Qualification.

33:01

I preach the law of God. That, that means I'm not an antinomy. You know who doesn't do this to me? The person who really has been beat up by the law and sees their sins.

33:09

They never come to me. They want to know, can he save me? Can he change me?

33:15

They don't ask me, can I obey? They, they just, they're like pastor, tell me

33:21

I'm okay. But it's, and I'm going to say this is as kind as I can be because you know why I was this person.

33:26

So the person I'm about to describe, I can describe them perfectly because it was me. The self -righteous are the ones who attack.

33:34

Yeah, absolutely. Because they're like, Hey, I've got this under control. Don't tell me it's not my works. Don't tell me

33:39

I need something else. I did this on my own. The Pharisees. That's right. Pharisees. We're all recovering

33:45

Pharisees. That's right. I was a really good Pharisee. Yeah. Only the strong survive. Right.

33:50

Green breakers. Yeah. Yeah. Um, let's, do you want, do we want to do any law and gospel formally before you go?

33:57

Let me just, let me just probe one more thing. Cause I've had this come at me in my circle. Little bait and switch, right?

34:04

So I actually have, I actually have heard, you know, when we, when we make this distinction to rigorous rigorously law and the gospel distinction important that, you know, some have come back and say, listen, you guys, the law is the gospel.

34:21

Okay. Now I I've had this in my circle. I got heartburn now. I know the law is the gospel and what they want to say.

34:27

And then we've kind of already covered this, but I just want to just cover the lingo is that, you know, what they want to say is that it is good news that we're being sanctified to.

34:37

So, so they want to take the law and they want to talk about sanctification and say, that's good news.

34:43

How would you, I'm just curious, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm just having a little fun with you guys. So like, you know, little devil's advocate here, come on, you guys, isn't you guys have so chalked up the good news to justification only.

35:00

Um, what are you, isn't sanctification good news too? Isn't that the gospel? Listen, sanctification is good news, but it's not the gospel.

35:09

It's amazing news as a part, as a matter of fact, he says he pulls out of a heart of stone, puts on a heart of flesh, and I will cause you to walk in my ways.

35:16

That's the fruit of the gospel. A good tree bears fruit. That is good news to me to know that he'll empower me to do that, but that's not the good news.

35:24

Let me tell you why, because you know what I start looking for to justify myself, my good works.

35:31

So the way I might respond, Chris, and I'm the way I'm going to respond right now is, uh, is this.

35:38

So I do think, all right, pause button, rewind. Not really, but here we go.

35:44

Steve Lawson recently. I'm just going to say this. We're not, we're not going in. I'm just going to state something.

35:50

I'm not even going to say what he said. He was answering a question on a video that he released. What is the doctrine that is most missing in the church today?

35:57

What is the doctrine that's most missing in preaching today? We did a video. I'm not going to talk about what he said. If, if I were asked that question,

36:04

I think I would say the generation he did and where he went with that was not great.

36:11

We're not going to go there right now. What I would say, we do like regeneration. Of course. Of course we preach the new birth.

36:19

Right. Right. But, but how are people born again? Right. It's through the proclamation of Christ. All right. But then this is what

36:25

I would say. The doctrine of union with Christ, I think is the most neglected doctrine in the church from my perspective, union with Christ for justification and the entirety of salvation.

36:36

That's right. So in one sense, I'm not trying to be slippery here, but if somebody were to come at me and say, the law is good news.

36:44

I'd be like, no, the law is not good news. Union with Christ is good news. And union with Christ means that everything that is his is yours.

36:51

And so now, of course you are justified. You've been reconciled to God. You are declared righteous. You're forgiven and absolved.

36:58

That's all true. And by virtue of your union with Christ, dear saint, you will be sanctified.

37:05

Yeah. Right. And it's hard. I don't know if that's a fair answer. And it's hard when people, when you hear it, when they hear you, when they hear you say, no, the law is not good news.

37:13

They're thinking you're saying the law isn't good. No, the law is good, but it's bad news to the center.

37:19

It's good, but the law is bad. The gospel is good news for the center. Right. So Romans seven, right.

37:25

Where Paul says more or less, is there something wrong with the law? No, nothing wrong with the law.

37:31

Right. Right. The issue is our corruption. You know, and so the law is a bad news when it comes to justification.

37:37

The law for the Christian, when it comes to sanctification, is no longer condemnatory.

37:42

See, that's a good point. And I think, you know, I think it was Godfrey, Dr. Godfrey, who wrote a really helpful piece years ago, because the word gospel, you know, for instance, when we think of the gospel, we're thinking very objectively of the person in the work of Jesus.

37:57

Right. Right. Now to remind you, of the gospel I preached to you. Well, what's that?

38:02

You know, which you stand in, which you received by, which you're saved. What is it for? I delivered a first support importance.

38:09

What else received Christ died for our sins. Yes. In accordance with scriptures, he was buried and he was raised. He was raised, you know, third day, according to scripture said, okay, so you have a little mini apostles creed kind of developing there.

38:21

But the point is that's the objective work of Jesus. What Luther said outside of us. Yeah. Extra notes. Yeah. It's as completely outside of us.

38:28

Right. When Paul's talking about that and justification, and he's talking about the gospel, this is where he's at. Godfrey makes the case,

38:34

I think is interesting that in some places, gospel is used more broadly in the scriptures. You know,

38:39

I've had friends challenge me on that, but I think it's worth noting that some have noticed you have a narrow use of the gospel and a broader use.

38:46

And if there is a broader use, you know, we could say like you're saying that when gospel encompasses, there is definitive sanctification, even sanctification rests on the grace of Christ.

38:57

That's what we want to talk about when we're talking about a broader use that even that even sanctification is a work

39:04

Westminster confession. What is that? A work of free grace. Yes. Sanctification. Yes, it is.

39:09

So what people want to do with that is put it back on us, but even sanctification as in our confessional statements, but in the scriptures, when we talk about it definitively, you are sanctified.

39:21

Yeah. Yeah. Is something that is a work of the spirit. And we could say that's generally good news, but when we're talking more objectively, we are focused on the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

39:31

And that's imputed to us for righteousness. And like was mentioned earlier, if you want like pastors out there, if you want sanctified people, preach

39:40

Jesus. Like that sounds counterintuitive. Scott Clark does a great job of pointing this out and recovering the reform confession and whatever he writes on that covenant moralism and all these kinds of covenant.

39:48

No, excuse me. Right. So right. Sure. Ring the bell. Yeah. But the bell, I have one, but it's not a bell.

39:56

This sounds what I, what I'm about to say is not going to sound crazy to you two guys, but it might sound crazy to a lot of listeners out there.

40:02

Cause a lot of people assume if you want sanctification to occur in your church, you need to talk about sanctification and say, no, we need to preach the law in its third use.

40:11

But if you want sanctified people, you better preach Christ because that's how it's achieved. And we've,

40:16

I think we've touched on that in a number of different ways already. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think, I think that's a good point.

40:22

It's kind of like if you're a basketball coach and you're trying to help your guys jump higher and you're like, y 'all need to jump higher.

40:31

Like, thanks coach. Versus I wish I could take two tents off my 40 yard dash time versus coming in and say,

40:39

Hey gentlemen, put on these shoes. I want you to run some up and down the court. I want you to do this and this and that. And I want you to do this and this and that.

40:44

And they're like, what are we doing this for coach? Oh, guess what? That's going to help you jump higher. Oh, okay. Great. Right. But what do we do?

40:50

We get up in the pulpit and we scream with, you know, veins popping up. You need to be sanctified.

40:56

Well, you're telling somebody to do something they can't do. And I know I'm sounding like an antinomian, but if you preach

41:02

Christ, you're giving them the power by which they actually can be changed.

41:08

All right. Well, we hope that you enjoyed that portion of our conversation with Chris Gordon of Escondido United Reformed Church out there in Escondido, California.

41:17

I know John and I enjoyed it. Hope you were encouraged by it. And Abounding Grace Radio. Go subscribe.

41:23

Yeah. Abounding Grace Radio. Thank you. I should have said that too. Yeah. Check him out. Abounding Grace Radio. My bad. We said

41:28

Abounding Grace Radio probably 17 times in the first recording of like, as in last week, failed to say it today.

41:36

We trust you understand. We're fallible guys. As we typically do, we're going to record a Semper Reformanda episode now.

41:42

This is a second podcast that John and I record each week for our members, people who have partnered with Theocast financially.

41:48

If you'd want more information about what that would look like to partner with us and become a part of the Semper Reformanda community, you can find all the information that you need on our website, theocast .org.

41:58

There are a number of things that come along with being an SR member. In addition to this podcast, you get access to an app, a growing community of people who are learning and wrestling with the same things that you most likely are.

42:10

And there may just be coming some educational classes. Yeah. Some Theocast new,

42:16

I think we're going to call it. Oh, yeah. Look out. Good grief. We don't want to over -promise and under -deliver. But there, all that is.

42:22

So yeah, check the website out. Get the information there. You guys are intelligent people. We leave that to you. We'll talk with you again next week.