Defecting From Bethel: Part 2 (Exclusive)

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Inside the Mind of Manson: Part 3

00:00

All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to part two of this cultures exclusive defecting from Bethel I'm once here once again with Pastor Jeff Durbin myself, and we are here with Jerry.

00:11

Yes. I'm Jerry case anyone's new to this Yes, like I said, I'm my name. I know it's Jeremiah, but once everyone gets to know me,

00:18

I just become Jerry It's just how I am. So but we are here with Lindsay Davis We appreciate you coming on and if you guys haven't checked out the first episode

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Definitely check it out because this is part two of this interview So Lindsay if you can let's just recap the very last part of why you went public in the way that you did

00:36

So I'm gonna just go ahead and hand it back to you. Let's let's take it from there Yeah, well at the end of the last episode

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I was just sharing that I mean almost 50 % of Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry are people that have come from all over the world but what

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I was trying to explain is The reason that I had to go public in the rebukes and the correction of the false teachings and the demonic or you know psychosomatic occult new age practices

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Maybe all of the above the reason I had to go public was because there's 1 ,500 people in first year 1 ,500 people in second year and I mean,

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I think a thousand people in third year 9 ,000 people in Bethel's congregation and Millions of people all around the world follow

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Bethel's teachings and so you know, I had to say something because you know, even if it's just for one person who you know

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God sovereignly reveals the truth and empowers the gospel for them to hear then it's for the one person and all of Heaven rejoices over that so, you know

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I had to say something because obviously I love these people and I love them enough to tell them the truth

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So, yeah That's very good. So I'd like to hear

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We on the past episode if you haven't heard episode 1 you go hear that episode to get the full story But now we're in the part of the story where you now have watched this film

02:02

American Gospel you've seen the failure of the the evangelical gospel in the

02:08

West and the thing that's commonly propagated this false fictitious version of the gospel and You've been challenged you're now seeing your own sin and and and Now you see wait a minute.

02:20

What's happening around me isn't from God This isn't true. And so bring us into that now you're realizing like I want to see people rescued from this like I am

02:30

Yeah, but what did that look like for you? now you're in the midst of this entire community and just it just give everyone a picture of what

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The Bethel community is like and I don't mean just Bethel the church But I mean the community surrounding that church 9 ,000 people there all these students there.

02:47

Well, what's the town like? well Bethel people,

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I mean, they're very nice people very kind But things get a little crazy when you

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Disagree with them or you speak out against something that they hold very dear in their theology or in their behaviors and their practices

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But really BSSM and Bethel has taken over the town of Reading and the town is very divided

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So so much of the town is actually associated with Bethel. So take, you know half of Reading but then the other half of Reading Does not like Bethel at all.

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There is really no middle ground in Reading and everyone knows it and I mean everyone in Reading has had an encounter with someone

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From Bethel because you know, these students go out to the grocery stores and they ask, you know

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Can I pray for your bodily ailment, you know? This isn't a joke this is real guys

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So everyone has had an encounter with Students or people from Bethel Church just because of Bethel's, you know activity in the town evangelistically and I use that term very loosely because Evangelism isn't just going out and praying for someone's back pain to go away.

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It's preaching the gospel which they rarely do at all, but Theologically the gospel they preach isn't really the gospel that we find in Scripture at all, right?

04:33

And not only that I mean you have what you mentioned these these students that are going in and out You got 1 ,500 first year second year third year

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So people obviously hear about Bethel they know about Bethel and then now we get to go to Reading, California To enact this supernatural ministry, but then it's like the people who are opposed to Bethel now

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It's like every single year. You've got a brand new 1 ,500 students who are now going out Getting ready to do the stuff that they're now experiencing but for people who are opposed to Bethel It's like oh boy here comes some new people trying to you know

05:03

Heal me or do or do these certain things so I can understand how there would be This this divide and then that's there's been a lot to cultish movements

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There's one specifically right now in Wells, Texas When the same things happen where they're buying a property and there's this huge divide.

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That's definitely a sociological structure Without question in the history of cultish movements in the

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United States and abroad and one of the the main tactics of cults Broadly is they get you in in terms of the love -bombing and we described some of that stuff

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But if you begin to question the authority of the leadership or the teachings coming from that particular cult

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Then you start to experience being ostracized being separated and disconnected and now we disconnect the love the affection

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Maybe even disconnect from you all together in terms of I can't speak to you Can you describe what that was like now?

05:53

You're starting to question this What was it like in terms of the environment and the community when you start challenging some of these teachings?

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What was it like? It was Really hard to go to school every day because I walked around and It felt like I was like a leper and obviously we know in the

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Bible that like when lepers had to walk through the town They had to shout out, you know unclean unclean

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But in my experience, you know Everyone already knew I was unclean in the eyes of Bethel because of what

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I was doing and speaking out against Everything that they held so dear So it literally, you know felt like I was this leper walking around because I was being

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Labeled with a religious spirit again. I was being labeled as a Pharisee I was being told by people, you know you have to watch out because you're on the borderline of blaspheming the

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Holy Spirit and obviously, we know that's the unpardonable sin because you're questioning the

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Practices right within Bethel the movement of Bethel and so now you're you're being threatened with Committing the unforgivable sin.

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Yeah. Yeah, and if I'm being just honest and vulnerable like We know like coming out of cults.

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There's a lot of confusion and like just trying to sift through everything. I thought you know, what if I'm wrong again, you know, what if I'm wrong again, but Every single night for the past four months.

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I've literally stayed up till maybe five or six o 'clock in the morning Every night seeking out the truth in God's Word literally, it's sometimes to the point of tears and frustration and just like wanting to scream because I have to unlearn everything that I learned in Bethel and come to true knowledge of what

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Scripture says all over again, and it can be very frustrating because You this is sort of what it feels like it feels like, you know one night

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I stay up till five o 'clock in the morning and I build my house on this solid rock and then the next day

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I'm hit with this doubt again the psychological effects of coming out of a

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Place that you know could be cultish considered cultish And I have to rebuild the house again and again and again

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Yeah, and it's a common experience from people who come out of the cults and I've seen that countless times people come out of say

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Mormonism and Six months after things they're going doing well They're joyful and delighting in God and and then we'll have a conversation and they'll mention something and I'll say well actually that's that's not

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What the Bible teaches and they're like, oh where'd that come from? I got to shake that loose, too I thought that that was a biblical teaching and it's it's a it's a common experience

08:40

I'll just say for the record. We need to get you some sleep. Yeah Yeah, and I'm sure you'll catch up now once you get back to Ohio Yeah, once I get back to Ohio for sure

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But anyways, so yeah it things got really really hard. I was actually

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Taken off of they have a private Facebook page for the school and for all of the students to be on to sort of mingle and whatnot and I was actually taken off of the

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Facebook page and blocked Because I was posting things contrary to what

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Bethel teaches So I remember in one instance, I posted a Paul Washer sermon and it was just like this beautiful Presentation of the gospel and the caption, you know just said this presentation of the gospel is so beautiful.

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You guys should listen to it this will really help us, you know in our evangelism and I remember a lot of people got on this post and they said you're posting someone who

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Dishonors our leaders and therefore you're dishonoring. You should really think about your actions and I just thought you know

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They're not even talking about Bethel in this video. Like they're just presenting the gospel And so it it was always very cultish after I spoke out

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They say that you know, we want to cultivate a culture of freedom and we don't want to control you But that freedom only goes so far because when you disagree or you speak out about anything that freedom is taken away and you're censored and in my experience

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Excommunicated. When you're challenged in the authority structure of the group.

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Yeah Yeah, and there's code words that are given to cloak it in Virtue and ethics. So a word and again, this is might be part of like your

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Deprogramming where now even like theologically you'll hear like certain terms and like you read for the book of Acts now and you learn about You know what's happening at Pentecost and those sorts of things and it's like, okay, hold on I got

10:40

I got to rethink this there might be this like and I've talked with Daniel who came out of Mormonism like he's still like sometimes we'll read

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The book of Romans and just knowing that he was in a workspace salvation for so long Sometimes there's that mindset where I still want to think like a cultist with like thinking

10:57

I have to work my way to salvation Yeah, but um Specifically though you mentioned about being dishonorable.

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They the honor is like one of these sort of words that is used

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Dad to basically say honor and dishonorable just in regards to giving unprecedented authority to Bill and Chris.

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Yeah Well in the BSSM handbook it says that They want to you know cultivate this culture of freedom

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And they're but they're more concerned about you breaking a value than a rule and they don't give you clear rules and They say the reason that this is well

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I'll tell you the reason but they say that their rules are buried underneath their values

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But they don't tell you what the rules are They tell you what the values are and so when I was being kicked out

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I was told that I dishonored the teachings and I dishonored the leaders and one of their values is having a culture of honor

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But it's very vague. It's not specific. It doesn't tell you what you can or cannot do what you can or cannot say and That seems really good on the surface

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But the reason that they say that their rules are buried underneath their values is so that they can make up any rules they want

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Arbitrarily when they see fit and when they think someone is an imminent danger to their agenda

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Wow It's interesting because if you read well, I mean throughout the

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Bible you can find these kinds of instances but if you read in Galatians when Paul is dealing with a perversion of the gospel not long after the resurrection of Jesus and ascension of Jesus He is alarmed about how quickly they are deserting him who called them by the grace of Christ to another gospel

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Which is really not another he says, but there's some who are troubling you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ So then he goes on to declare the anathema, which is a very big deal.

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We should always be cautious about doing that Yeah, but he declares an anathema the curse of God an eternal death upon anybody preaching those gospel

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Even if an angel comes from heaven, even if you get this Amazing manifestation of seeing your angel.

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Yeah and preaching this gospel to you. Let him be anathema Am I trying to please men or God if I was still seeking to please men?

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I would not be the servant of Christ, but he goes on to describe an experience He had where you have the

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Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter in a conflict with each other before the church and that's where Peter is actually engaging not in Theological error in terms of saying something that's not in step with the gospel

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He just simply had behavior that could be viewed as a denial of the biblical gospel and justification

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Through faith apart from works. He was just doing something in his behavior that could have been interpreted as Denying the biblical view of justification and it

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Paul says in Galatians. Just read it guys first three chapters He says that when he saw it he confronted

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Peter to his faith face in front of everybody and why because a core

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Essential truth about how a person is made right with God was being denied Just by perception of what

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Peter was doing and hanging out with Gentiles. No problem this time But when these are the people coming from Jerusalem He's hanging out with them and avoiding the

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Gentiles and he's essentially saying like that is going to destroy the gospel Peter And he's in his face in front of everybody

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So in terms of this idea of like honor your leaders on your leaders The answer is well, yeah, the Bible teaches that like honor those who shepherds you care for you

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Submit to those who are an authority over you Yes but that's not to an ultimate degree and that's shown even in our greatest examples with the

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Apostle Peter and Paul is Paul's willing to in front of everybody Dishonor Peter to take down his honor for a second to say stop

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You're not an ultimate here and your behavior is going to confuse people with the gospel. So stop

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Yeah And so you do have a right when you have a core essential truths being denied to actually confront that and to quote -unquote

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Dishonor somebody. Yeah. When do you not see that in Scripture? You don't see the Apostles You don't see the

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Apostles doing that kind of very aggressive in -your -face behavior over minor issues

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Yeah, minor disagreements Secondary issues you just don't see it You do see it when you see somebody who's not walking in step with the gospel or they're denying fundamentally who

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Jesus is Yeah, that's where you see the Apostles tearing their beards out and freaking out Yeah, and so and I definitely agree with that so just talking about when you started meeting with the leadership

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I want to just sum it up. You can expand upon. This is that you had meetings with them the meetings weren't necessarily

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You had sincere questions about this is what I'm seeing in Scripture. This is what the gospel is

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You talked about there is a moment when you went out with everyone else to do this ministry

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Yeah, and you're preaching the actual gospel and you had classmates come up to you or saying what what's this?

15:58

What's you're talking about? They were they were It's something that they hadn't heard before. Yeah, and so and you were asking questions.

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I sincerity it Was there an attempt to open up the

16:10

Word of God and answer your questions? Or was it more just to see if we can let's see if we can get Lindsay to calm down and conform back to the way we want her to be like Which way which way which one was it?

16:23

Well When I went into the meeting It was just me and then three people.

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So sort of like this three against one and I really came in with a heart to all right

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If I am under misunderstanding something I want to be receptive to them explaining what

16:46

I'm misunderstanding Through using the Word of God as their source but from What I've done the past four months

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I think that at this point I can biblically judge righteously because I know what Scripture says

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Yeah, so when I came into this meeting, I thought that you know, they would ask me

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Questions they would want to know what I find To be false or heretical but it wasn't like that at all

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There was a lot of dominance from their side in the conversation Just telling me that I'm dishonoring that they don't understand why

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I have to publicly speak out There was a lot of stress on that and I was trying to voice my concerns and we reached a point in the conversation where the overseer of BSSM said to me

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Lindsay, you're not even explaining to me what you think is Heretical and I said, well, do you want me to explain what

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I think is heretical and she goes? Yeah, I think so No, not really and I said

17:54

I just was sitting there like but you just said that I'm not explaining myself So trying to make me look like I'm not saying anything

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But then when I want to bring my concerns to the table, it's shut down really quick And also in that first meeting and just for the record, you know there in terms of biblical standards here

18:14

And so this isn't just your word. Yeah, there is a Confirmation. Yes as to this conversation.

18:20

We'll leave it at that. Yeah, there's it's not this is not just your word right now We can attest to it.

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Yeah. Yeah so Towards the end of this conversation.

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She reaches over and touches my arm and she says Honey, I'm like,

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I'm genuinely worried that you're going to come after my family or something and I said what and Because I was posting these things online

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She's apparently worried that I'm going to come after her family and then my revival group pastor who was part of the meeting said that Students have been coming to him with concerns and they are scared and you know

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They have fear because of what I'm saying online when all I was Perpetuating online was you know, this is the truth.

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This is not you know Believe the gospel and trust in Christ alone. Yeah, right.

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So Yeah, that's sort of how the first meeting was like and at the end of that meeting they said Well because we didn't have time to talk about you know the full

19:25

Range of your concerns today. We would like you to type up a document of what your concerns are

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So, I mean I had a lot of concerns a lot, you know false Christ false gospel

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Demonic behaviors and practices so I went home that night and I took the weekend I probably worked on it for 48 hours straight a 31 page document explaining all of my concerns with their theology and their behaviors and their practices and When I sent it to them, they sent me to someone higher they sent me to an overseer of third year of BSSM who is apparently getting his master's and Bible and theology and So when

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I went and I had the second meeting I think the thing that stood out to me the most is that in this meeting

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He said, you know Lindsay we value the gospel here, but it just doesn't always get airtime and I thought wow

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Airtime do you imagine Jesus's bloody and battered

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Body and think yeah, I mean we think you're important, but we're just not going to give you airtime.

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Yeah airtime this is what Christianity is about the gospel and That's what that meeting was like, but I made it very clear that You know,

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I'm not backing down I'm standing firm and nothing that you're going to say unless you can show me in Scripture Nothing that you're going to say is going to make me waiver from the ultimate source of authority

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Which is the gospel of Jesus Christ the Bible Scripture and so in the last meeting it was only about two minutes long much shorter than all of the other meetings and They just called me in and they said, you know

21:13

Lindsay We just feel like we wouldn't be geniuses keeping you around when you just totally oppose our leaders and you publicly speak against us and They said, you know,

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I think it's best if you go back to Ohio and so They asked me to leave and I had to you know, shake the dust off my feet and move on But I'm not moving on from the truth and trying to help people and 15 minutes later

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You got a message from me on Facebook messenger and here we are So it's funny.

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It's interesting to see how this has come full circle So I think it's important to lay a foundation here now

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Because You're this is a very unique and compelling story.

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Yeah, and It's an experience You've had a dramatic experience

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That is content and testimony again We're kind of using the language we've had when we've had conversations with our

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LDS friends and neighbors but there are people right now who are in BSSM who also are

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Sincere and and have a testimony and and and and I appreciate their pat me I've gone through the comments on your

22:26

Facebook thread and and I can understand I can appreciate the fact that they're passionate for what they believe but just because you're sincere and Passionate doesn't mean you're right and by their own admission

22:38

They would believe that given by what they're saying of you that you know, you're young you're passionate

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You're going for the truth, but ultimately We have there's testimonies experiences that are in contrast to it with one another yeah, we can't differentiate between the two you believe

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You had an experience with the Holy Spirit. Yeah, when you saw

22:59

American Gospel There are others right now who believe that they are experiencing the miraculous and the manifestations when they're talking with with Bill and Chris But ultimately

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I want to jump back to the foundation that we laid What ultimately what Jesus said is thy word is truth

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We need to look at the Word of God and address. How do we can which experience conforms to the

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Word of God? And ultimately we can't use our experience as authority. We're not going to do that So what I want to do now is let's let's have a conversation just about the theological foundation because again, there's there's videos for example that are out there that you shared and about What I would say is definitively a possibility of Demonic manifestations.

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I don't think you can look at the video of the guy shaking uncontrollably and falling off stage And again,

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I I'm the I'm king of skeptics I try to rationalize it like maybe this is some sort of Psychosis or whatever it is, but I just don't see that school wide

24:13

Yeah, so we yeah, so we need to look at what does the Bible say about what these practices that they're doing?

24:20

Is it biblical? So let's lay a foundation of that. So You've got a couple books over there as props

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There's the kind again. So what you have there is you have one of your manuals when you were a Bethel student

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You've got that you've got a book if you want to hold up the power of communion You've got that one.

24:39

You can see there. This is a recent book You just we're gonna go over a couple quotes from that in fact, and this is this is basic Fundamental teachings you can go you bought these books.

24:49

You probably still have the receipt in your car very fundamental teachings, but Give an example just off the get -go.

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What are some distinctives that are very clear core doctrines? And then we'll just bring it up and we're just gonna

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Talk about what the Word of God says about it and have a conversation about that. What's wrong? Yeah Well in order to understand

25:11

I think The basis of everything is, you know, if you're truly Christian if you're truly in the faith

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You have to get two things, right? The gospel and who Jesus Christ actually is if you don't have those two things, right?

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You have a Jesus that cannot save and you have a gospel that cannot save so a popular teaching from Bill Johnson is that Jesus Christ, he says in his book when heaven invades earth

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He says and I believe it's chapter 10. I could be wrong, but it's in this book and he

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Perpetuates it in his sermons if you just look it up, but that Jesus completely laid aside his divinity

25:54

And that he ceased to be God on earth that he was only a man in right relationship with God and Obviously, that isn't the

26:04

Jesus of scripture We know that Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever and that the fullness of God Dwells in him bodily and so we know that that is not true

26:17

And we know that the Jesus Christ that Bill Johnson is perpetuating is not the Jesus Christ of Scripture if you look at Bethel's gospel

26:26

Bill Johnson teaches that any Gospel that is taught by, you know teachers or preachers or whoever that is absent of signs and wonders that is absent of an

26:37

Encounter it's a powerless gospel. And so if it's a powerless gospel, we know that in Romans is it

26:46

Romans 1 16? It's the gospel is the power of God unto salvation Yeah, so they believe really that it's not the gospel.

26:54

That's the power of God unto salvation But it's an encounter. It's an experience It's a sign or a wonder that is the power of God unto salvation and that is a different gospel so Yeah, that's one part of the ask you this in terms of the experience

27:12

And I don't want to put this on the experience as the the acid test here But I just want you

27:18

I want you to tell me sort of the cultural part of that Do you see in an experience of Bethel and the students and the church itself?

27:26

an emphasis on When you're having an opportunity to preach

27:32

Christ as somebody or to give them the gospel an emphasis upon the holiness of God the sinfulness of Humanity and the need to repent and believe in Christ and what he has accomplished

27:42

Is there an emphasis on that when when we talk about the gospel? Like I'm going out to preach the gospel for a

27:47

Bethel student looks like no. Yeah Well, first of all, I'll tell you sort of what their evangelism is like and then but first like in church because obviously their church has even more congregants than students, but the gospel is

28:05

Thrown on at the end of a message like an accessory It's no longer the centerpiece.

28:11

It's no longer the foundation in which we build upon But it's really just thrown on at the end of the message just to say, you know

28:18

We shared the gospel, but even the gospel that they share Isn't God is holy

28:25

We have fallen Into sin we have become wretched and without hope

28:32

Our heart has become hardened towards God. There's no one that seeks him There's no fear of God before our eyes and our own righteousness is as filthy rags

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Compared to God and only Jesus Christ has the power to save you because of the finished work on the on the cross

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There's none of that. There's no explanation of who Christ is what the gospel is Why Jesus Christ had to die for you on the cross?

28:54

There's none of that the the gospel really looks like at Bethel God just wants to have a relationship with you and he just loves you so much and he just wants to Come into your heart and he wants to just have your life.

29:07

No, you need Jesus's life You need Jesus. It becomes this thing where God needs you when you're the one who needs

29:15

God How do you even know how to enact repentance like you talk about terminology if sin is really

29:23

Never discussed. Yeah their explanation of Repentance is how the

29:30

Greek defines it, which is, you know a changing of mind but what they explain a changing of mind like is

29:39

Taking on heaven's perspective and that sounds like that sounds beautiful, right?

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I'm gonna just take on heaven's perspective without realizing that you're a wretched sinner without hope that you need to repent of your sin and trust in Christ alone because he is holy and if he is going to Enact perfect justice.

30:04

He's going to send you to hell. There's no fear of God They really and I'm just going to be blunt in saying this

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They show the true meaning of what Romans 3 is all about where it says there's no fear of God before our eyes

30:18

There's no sensitivity to sin. There's no There's no grief over our wickedness or you know anything

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So because God just wants to have a relationship with you So you wouldn't hear and all those are common pithy slogans of modern evangelicalism that have now just become

30:37

The norm like let Jesus into your heart sort of a thing It's like we'll find that in the Bible, right?

30:42

You won't I promise and don't go to Revelation because that's not what that's talking about But you wouldn't hear coming across the pulpit and Bethel words like come die

30:53

No, I've never heard one message about Dying to yourself.

30:59

I hate hate father mother sister brother wife even your own life and you come and die Count the cost of what it means to come and turn to Christ and his salvation and lordship.

31:08

Nothing like that No, I mean, there's so many people you won't hear that at all. No, no wrath of God you'll hear sin mentioned, but there's such a

31:19

Insensitivity to sin that like sin just doesn't even mean anything anymore. There's I've never heard the word wickedness

31:25

I've never heard the phrase wrath of God no explanation of any of that. So without any explanation of that There's no understanding of the gospel our condition right our position before God God his holiness that the need to To repent and believe exactly and in trust in what

31:44

Christ but it becomes more of this you're you're you're really proclaiming and then people are pursuing a

31:51

Relationship a relationship with Jesus and and and what comes as the selling it sounds like this and tell me if I'm wrong like tell me if I if I'm not accurately portraying this is is it the the selling point for all of this is not so much you get

32:06

Jesus and Forgiveness and salvation is it's look at all of this experience and the signs and the wonders and these feelings

32:15

You can have all that with this Jesus. Yeah, is it what we tell to describe what that's like? What what is the main thing?

32:21

What are people hearing and and and and believing? Absolutely. Yeah, it's definitely

32:27

Experience -based it's power -based if you come to Jesus, he's going to give you power over everything

32:33

They believe that right now that we have dominion over all of heaven and over all of earth

32:40

We do yes okay, we do and that all authority has been given to us and obviously we know from first Corinthians 15 that we will not rule with Christ on this earth until he returns until every enemy is put under his feet and So and specifically when they say that us that us is the people that are in the

33:02

Bethel movement specifically Because we have a yeah, I saw comments where people even talking about well, we have we don't have what they have

33:09

So therefore we have a powerless gospel. Yes, right Oh, I've been told I have a powerless gospel more times than I can count

33:17

And I haven't told them that I don't believe in spiritual gifts or that God heals or any of that I believe in God's Providence, I believe that God can heal.

33:27

I've seen God heal people many times and provide providence That's important. Can you hang there for one sec?

33:32

Yeah So for those who are watching this right now that that's a very important thing to highlight in this moment of this discussion is that as to what's wrong is this is right this

33:41

Is not a debate right now in terms of what's wrong at Bethel and Bethel School of Ministry It's not a debate over Cessationism versus continuationism whether the spiritual gifts are active and available today.

33:53

That's not even what this is about this is about a distortion of what the gifts are a distortion of what the gifts are coinciding with a really powerless gospel and a

34:04

Very at least at minimum an ill -defined Gospel in terms of what am

34:10

I coming to Jesus for? Yeah, what was the point of the cross exactly? I mean everyone wants the

34:16

Jesus that will heal their body everyone wants the Jesus that will give them their inheritance, which is a really big thing at Bethel too and When I was studying scripture the other day

34:26

I just realized you know, the only person that demanded their inheritance from God and Well, if you look at the prodigal son, that's where I'm going with this.

34:35

He demanded his inheritance from his father he was given it he went out and He basically turned into a pig squandered it yeah, and you know, he was welcomed back to his father's house but he repented and People don't even know what it means to repent.

34:54

Yeah, so The reason that we're talking about this is because we want people to know like if you want to repent you can and this is

35:01

What it means to repent if you want to trust in Christ God willing. This is the gospel, right?

35:06

This is who Jesus Christ is, you know And I pray that God sovereignly opens your eyes and softens your heart to the truth of the gospel

35:13

Well, and you know, this is I think one of the important things this this is hopefully a highlight thing and hopefully a blessing to You in the midst of you working through these things with scripture

35:23

The way that you're describing Where you're at now and what you saw was wrong and how you know, something is off there

35:30

Oddly, this is what's so peculiar about it is oftentimes these movements when they have such an emphasis on these

35:35

Experiences and the spiritual gifts and the power and all those different things they go no no back to Pentecost back to Pentecost Go read the book of Acts.

35:42

Look at the signs. Look at the wonders and I would say well Yeah, that was fulfillment of prophecy God said that essentially at the turning over of the old and new covenant

35:50

There was going to be the signs and wonders that accompanied it but again This is not the discussion about whether those gifts are present now and all those things

35:56

It's a question of this if you want so much to go back to the book of Acts and to Pentecost and what was happening

36:01

In the time of the Apostles, then I challenge you to actually read the book of Acts outside of the influence read the book of Acts and look at what the

36:11

Apostles and early Christians are preaching. Yes, like if you want the book of Acts Christianity, I'm on board like yeah

36:18

Yes, high five hundred percent like that's what I want. Say high five No, that's actually that's good.

36:24

Let's aim for that. Yeah, but in order to get that Acts first century Christianity We got to get our noses in that book and say what were they saying?

36:33

Yeah, because what they were saying Wasn't isn't what you're you're saying. You're hearing at Bethel Yeah, would you see the

36:40

Apostles proclaiming and how they're engaging the culture with the gospel? listen Oftentimes the people are like, you know the spiritual gifts and like let me fix the length of your leg and you know

36:50

And and you know laugh and and oh like, you know, all these different things are happening It's like, you know, okay, okay

36:56

But let me ask you like when when you experience a preaching of the gospel in your culture

37:03

Are you having to be lowered out of windows? Because people want you dead Yeah are you having are you going into places and the whole city is going into an uproar and are they taking you into jail and Flogging you are you going into a place where people are actually taking oaths to not eat anything until you're dead?

37:19

yeah, like, you know because That's how the apostles are preaching the gospel and the gospel they're preaching is

37:26

Leading people to Jesus the church is being built up The church is multiplying it's growing but some people also wanted

37:32

Paul dead Acts chapter 9 Yes And so my question is is if if if the gospel that we're preaching

37:38

Really isn't getting us into any trouble in terms of like Offending the natural dead state spiritual state of a person if it's really not getting into us into any trouble

37:49

We need to re -examine our gospel because when Jesus preached his gospel They wanted him dead when the

37:55

Apostles preached their gospel. Lo and behold, they wanted him dead so if we're going out and preaching this fuzzy sort of like Jesus is a friend of mine and He wants to be your buddy and he wants you to have this amazing experience

38:06

And just let him into your heart bro And like that kind of a thing like that's not gonna get me in a lot of trouble with people like Jesus wants to be

38:13

Your buddy. Yeah, but gee you're an enemy of Jesus right now. He's the king of the world with all authority

38:19

You're a dead in your sin and you're gonna perish without him If you don't turn to him in a hurry and trust in his work alone, you're gonna die in your sins

38:27

You're an enemy of God. Like that's a very different gospel. Exactly people say hey that gospel is going to Anger people it's gonna turn people away

38:37

You mean like when Jesus was preaching to thousands of people and then when he preached to them, they whittled down to 12 again

38:43

Yeah, so yeah, and I'm gonna let you jump back real quick comment is

38:50

We're talking about the controversy and the in the apostolic tradition what the what the the

38:56

Apostles did yeah, and I'll let you what I want to just comment and transition into is

39:02

It's imperative to you that we define our terms the term because Colt is a very misunderstood word

39:08

And we're just talking about cultures characteristics because I wanted before we actually label anything

39:13

It's just at least to find the term of what it is and the term that we adhere to is basically a group or Organization or group of persons centered around any particular person's interpretation of the

39:24

Bible because and they always will use Christian terminology they'll use our language, but ultimately they'll fund they'll deny the fundamental elements of the faith and I think

39:35

There is a point Dividing line not just the warm and fuzzy God loves you and so right now because that and again that topic was one of those things were

39:45

Initially when we are in a day with messages about Bethel we were thinking okay This is might be more in the

39:51

Justin Peters like discernment ministry, which is a good thing I don't know if it's necessarily in our field with dealing with the different Paranormal the occult and the optic holds and the occultic fringe aspects.

40:02

So one of the things that I want to really Communicate to anyone who's

40:10

Listening or watching this is if you look in the book of Acts that when people came to Christ They didn't see any of the

40:19

New Age or a cultic books or secret hidden mystic knowledge as something to redeem

40:25

They made bonfires out of it. They burned them what

40:30

I found Extraordinary a lot again for people who don't know what you're referencing There might people new to this because they need to hear what you just said.

40:37

That's him. That's important Can you just just give 30 seconds on what what are you talking about in Acts? Where people made a bonfire of occultic books and they didn't redeem.

40:45

What do you mean? Yeah Well, I mean, I believe it's in when they went to it was what was going on in Ephesus when the riot broke out

40:51

So people were were coming to Christ and and there's there's different instances And in fact, one of my favorite passages in the book of Acts is

40:59

Demetrius the silversmith Because it's from the vantage point of an unbeliever who understood what the gospel was and he wasn't saying like man

41:08

These Christians are coming around here and they're just they're just seeking miracles. They're hearing hearing they're healing people. It's wonderful he gathers all these people together to say we're making we were making a huge profit margin off of these idols and people are now turning away from those idols to worship the

41:26

Living God and My my biggest fear is that Demetrius and the temple

41:31

Demetrius and in there were no No, not Artemis is going to be

41:37

Not known throughout the entire earth So you see as a kingdom of God's expanding in the first century

41:43

You see the abolishment of idols and says their hearts were filled with rage and they said great is Artemis of the

41:49

Ephesians And so not only that then you see people who are taking these mystic

41:54

Books whether it was like the witchcraft or whatever it is to console with mediums and familiar spirits and they burn those there's no there's

42:01

Certain things that have no Redeeming value whether it's a Ouija board a

42:07

Ouija board or tarot cards or whatnot So what I found extraordinary alarming is that and that this may come from their view of their

42:17

Dominion aside ideology is they believe that and you can correct me if I'm wrong

42:23

That they believe there's aspects of where New -age practices can be redeemed if we basically just take that practice and we just replace it with Christian terminology

42:35

Can you just expand on that because I have a quote here actually if you could hold up the one book Yeah, because you just purchased this this is the basic.

42:42

This is basic teaching the physics of heaven Yeah, I want to just read one quote and then you can expand on this

42:49

Because we just had an episode with Stephen Banker's talking about the new age We talked about the concerns of it infiltrating the church.

42:57

And again, this is not we're not since a I don't want to sensationalize anything This is a book you can buy right now through Bethel about whatever the publishing house is a

43:05

Bethel Publications Or do you know the publishing house is called? I think it's called Destiny image.

43:11

Okay. Yeah is the Just the name that sounds like new agey.

43:17

Yeah, this is a quote Something that you highlight sounds like a hair salon. Yeah in Washington DC. So again, you see the mixture of had a bunch

43:25

One of the some of that was part of the great await one of the original Great Awakenings I'm just gonna this is directly from that book the physics of heaven and it says

43:35

Jonathan Edwards the legendary 18th -century minister once said a work of God without stumbling blocks is never to be expected

43:44

I believe that a great work of God is in pro is in process as he restores knowledge and Insights that have been lost to Christians, but are now hidden in the teachings and practices of quantum mysticism

44:00

Look at it Jonathan Edwards would be rolling over in his grave right now

44:07

Jeff, I mean just Jeff. Can I ask in all transparency if I got up in Front of church.

44:14

Mm -hmm. Did you like we here we have announcements today if I got up and said that What would you what would you say would you would you

44:23

I would say everyone let's stop and pray for Jerry We're fast and I would say all the elders and we're gonna go outside and talk to Jerry for a minute

44:29

So then you're gonna come back in and and repent of what you just said Yeah, but this is this is the bait that they're not this is out in the open and people know

44:39

I had no idea about this. Yeah up until you you sharing this stuff with me Go ahead and expand on some some aspects of that because this is where we can make sense of the distinctive

44:49

Possibility of these video footage being demonic manifestations, not just because we want sensationalize anything

44:55

But from a biblical standpoint is that God calls these practices?

45:01

And again, you're talking about no being no fear of God before their eyes God in his law says that these practices of Divination and sorcery and mediumship is an abomination towards God and anyone who practices those things should be put to death

45:18

One part of this it's right above that. First of all Don't do that to Jonathan Edwards.

45:23

Yeah We're hearing more and more teachings about Christians taking back truths from the

45:29

New Age that really belong to the kingdom of God That's terrifying That is frightening is so so and that that pushes now

45:38

This is where the divide comes if we just look at the definition of cult that we use

45:45

This is a fundamental using the language Christian lingo and Christian language But then distorting distorting and altering it

45:55

There's nothing redeemable about Pagan practices and what

46:00

God says in his word is that and this is this is true and people who have come out of the New Age have Testified to this is that when you just don't listen to God It's the same thing like rush like flying over a no -fly zone

46:13

Regardless of what your intentions are you are an enemy territory and you're subject to being shot down because you've you've crossed that line and God says when you try and access hidden knowledge to these particular practices you open up dimensions that Ultimately have power, but that power is satanic and that's we're just biblically not trying to sensationalize anything

46:38

Look and again, you guys can listen to our previous episodes on the New Age This is a serious issue because this is when you see these practices being done with that.

46:47

So Lindsay, I want to That's at just so good. We don't have to do the details now Let's get people to it. Go read

46:52

Deuteronomy chapter 18. Yeah, read that these practices are forbidden by God they are abominations and you are commanded by God not to participate in any of this kind of pursuit of secret knowledge or Communication with the other side it is an abomination

47:07

It is dangerous spiritually dangerous and I'll just say this very very Honestly as a pastor in a ministry for a long long time and I have seen this kind of practice cause

47:18

Wreak significant spiritual havoc upon people

47:23

I've I've seen its Consequences and it is terrifying and I mean that sincerely like in terms of my whole body

47:31

My hair standing up in my body when I've come into contact with somebody who tried to cross This gap and this entered into this realm

47:38

I've seen the devastating effects of this kind of dangerous spiritual activity in On the island that we have planted a church

47:46

Apologia Kauai the effects of this kind of practice is absolutely Terrifying from a spiritual perspective.

47:53

So just go ahead Well a few examples of this obviously you can read it about it in their book the physics of heaven

48:01

I wouldn't recommend reading it I I wouldn't really recommend ever reading a book just for the sake of you know reading it if there's not truth in it

48:09

But you can look up certain things too, which I'm going to explain if you go on Google and you look up Am I more religious than Jesus and next to Jesus just put

48:19

Bethel on their own website there is an article from a

48:24

BSSM student that wrote about an experience that he had at a psychic fair when he and other students went to a psychic fair and they set up their own tent and They didn't they decided not to use the words father son or Holy Spirit instead they basically led people into encounters by using the term spirit of creation and So they're leading people into you know alleged encounters in these tents where people are, you know

48:57

Encountering God through physical manifestations or whatever and they're saying that people are coming to Christ Through this but how do you bring someone to Christ through something called the spirit of creation when it's the

49:10

Holy Spirit who softens hearts It's not the you know

49:15

Spirit of creation. What does that mean? Hindus use that they're all they were accepted just fine, right?

49:22

Yeah. Yeah spirit of the universe not controversial exactly So there was that and basically the article is talking about from this students perspective, you know

49:32

I realized at the end of this that I'm more religious than Jesus was when Jesus would have you know

49:38

Outright condemned this practice. He would have not, you know condoned this practice.

49:44

So There's that they believe that we have the power to speak things into existence and in the

49:51

New Age phenomenon that could be known, you know as the law of attraction and You know declaring things into existence and they'll manifest whatever you speak out into the universe is what's going to come back at you it can almost be in a negative sense to like karma and so if you speak they say that you can speak things into existence essentially because God spoke the universe into existence and because he's given us all authority

50:21

We have the ability to speak anything into existence because all things have been given to us and there's a quote from Bill Johnson where he says just like God spoke the universe into creation speak to that hip and Declare life and healing into that hip

50:38

I don't think I've ever had this word of knowledge like this before But I know there's at least two if not three people in the room that that does something happen in a traumatic way

50:49

Relationally and you've carried the burden of it, even though you've not been embittered You've carried the weight of it and it's affected your body and specifically that hip

50:59

So we just declare as you pray or praying over them command now the spirit of affliction loose that hip in Jesus name

51:06

Command it gone Just just speak health into that hip some actually need a creative miracle.

51:14

There's degenerative condition in the joint So the worlds were made when God spoke them into being so speak to that new hip

51:21

So in some way they're you know saying that essentially we

51:27

Have the same authority and power as God and also Chris Vallotton has talked about the fact that we're little gods

51:35

Little G. He says we're little gods And that Chopra uses that exact same language in the third

51:41

Jesus. He's a prominent New Age teacher completely denies Every aspect of Christ right with of course using paying homage and giving every essential or in the terminology

51:51

Yeah, well if you even look at the you know, the crazy manifestations and all of that too you'll find a lot of that originating in the occult and Hinduism and in Hinduism specifically when a guru

52:06

Does what's called I guess a Shakti pot where they touch them on the forehead and they fall over and they can you know

52:13

Manifest physically violently shaking breaking out into laughter feeling like they're on fire Screaming it can manifest in many different ways but if you look at a video of that and then you look at a video of a you know a

52:27

Manifestation at Bethel Church or you know the school they look dangerously similar exactly

52:35

Yeah, yeah, exactly. We were talking about that similarity, too Especially if you guys look online and see we might and they even share some of these videos, too

52:44

There is a striking and disturbing similarity and again, we're not we're dealing it

52:50

We're addressing it from a biblical standpoint of what these Eastern religions do and how they're invoked with satanic power

52:56

If you look at the documentary wild wild country and again, I just want to say some people are asking us

53:02

It's a Netflix documentary. There are points where you do not want to watch with your kids There is mature content in it.

53:07

But as a whole it's very intriguing at something very Significant historical event

53:13

Walter Martin spoke extensively on the movement with the Roshni she's but a lot in it

53:18

Yeah, yeah, he's actually featured in the documentary. I remember that one point. I was like, yeah I was like jumping up and sharing and stuff.

53:24

It was fun But there are these moments where the Roshni she and they would like dress in all red and they had this unique cult identity but they would do these just look up Roshni she called and you will look at the

53:37

These practices where they were like dancing and well, they would start just shaking and manifesting when they would do their their kundalini spirit and again, it's this you look at what's the this definitive

53:50

Eastern cult practice was doing and in many ways you would say what was demonic and demonic manifestations

53:58

My I just saw the striking similarity with the girl There's there I think the footage of a young girl that was shared that I saw

54:06

Where she was convulsing and shaking and yelling out. I'm a millionaire. Mm -hmm and It's almost sort of like talking about that law that was disturbing to me because a lot of that law of attraction comes from Eastern thought and This young girl is like shaking uncontrollably.

54:26

It's like she's standing still in her right hand is I think it's like going back and forth And She's yelling that out and you saw

54:38

I think there's another one where Someone puts their hand on a girl and the way that she was convulsing

54:43

It was almost if we did a split screen of what was happening like with the Roshni. She's are these other movements

54:49

Yeah, even even holy hell number one He put his equally as you'd lay hands on them and they would shake uncontrollably the exact same thing

54:56

So and that's and I think what's also important is that best case scenario is that I believe there are people at Bethel who?

55:05

Are Christians and they're sincere. Absolutely. You need to look at some of this and I'm really hoping this is going to create

55:11

There needs to be a conversation about this There's something definitively wrong

55:17

When people are acting out in certain ways that is virtually identical to the two different Cults and occultic movements that are based in the

55:25

New Age There's that and yeah There's we need to take a look at this stuff and we need to have that especially when you have chapter when you have

55:32

Chapters in I mean we have several books in front of here with what titles the chapters I mean that could be if I read this people think

55:40

I'm reading out of a New Age book Yeah I'll just read one last little pair paragraph from the the physics of heaven and I'll let you jump in here pastor

55:48

It says it can the coming new sound isn't just something that you can pick up with your ears

55:55

It's greater than anything. You can understand it can change DNA. So we are genetically growing up We are becoming like an instrument being tuned in where our genetics are getting aligned with a father's genetics in harmony with him

56:09

Does that sound anything? remotely in a Christian worldview if I was talking like that no no no,

56:20

I Don't understand even the context what what in terms of like what what are you saying? What what does that mean to have us in tune with the father's genetics?

56:28

What what does that mean from a Christian perspective? All of this is just it is exactly what

56:34

God warns us against in Scripture over and over and over again It's the it's the it's the opposition that God has to syncretism

56:41

And that's taking pagan practices occultic practices and adopting them now into our

56:47

Relationship in our walk with the Holy One of Israel Yeah Well, that's exactly what the Israelites did with the golden calf every time the

56:54

Israelites engaged in syncretism with the pagans and the pagan practices God judged them for it And what we need to consider is just really how very serious that is

57:03

Yeah If you have people who identify as the Bride of Christ who are using the name of God the name of the Lord Jesus Christ who are essentially adopting our terminology and pouring entirely different meanings into it

57:13

If they were if they were essentially adopting all these pagan New Age occultic practices in We need to consider the cycle that God has shown us in Scripture.

57:21

Is that he actually judges? Yeah, and he is not he is he is he is a

57:27

God to be considered very Seriously, and he is a holy God. And so if we're gonna adopt these kinds of Dangerous spiritual practices into what we call

57:37

Christian worship and practice. There's going to be a day of reckoning now We all know there's a day of reckoning at the end of time

57:43

And if you're in Christ, that is not a day to be feared because you are righteous in him through faith

57:49

It's a gift of God But there are moments in history where God acts and he judges and I would

57:54

I would not want to be anywhere near this kind Of movement where you've taken pagan practices sorcery

58:01

Divination all these practices you've pulled them together into Christian worship and you're using the name of Jesus over it to deceive it's a dangerous thing and Very very serious.

58:12

Well when the Israelites did that God told them, you know For those of you have repented go out and whoever does not repent kill them and 3 ,000 people

58:23

Were killed after they were worshiping the golden calf in the name of Yahweh. Mm -hmm, you know judgment.

58:28

So yeah judgment All right, so I think it's good. It's over an hour. I think we've done on this We did a lot. Yeah, take a break and come back for maybe a little bit shorter one.

58:36

Yes Yeah, well, we'll wrap things up here. So again, we definitely Lindsay this has been fantastic.

58:41

Yeah, and again for those of you regardless of where you stand on these issues We appreciate that you've made this far and you're taking the time to listen to you and we're doing this not

58:50

This isn't our go out and get anyone just for the sake of getting them We have purpose and intent behind that and like I said

58:58

Regardless of whether we were willing to be misunderstood for the sake of what God said in his words

59:04

So we're gonna do one little last segment here in just a little bit. So thank you for listening to part two Defending from Bethel.

59:10

We'll talk to you guys next time go on by the way Go to apology of studios calm a p o l o g i a studios calm to get more from cultish