Baptismal Regeneration- Laborers' Podcast #baptism #regeneration #salvation

Baptismal Regeneration and the Meaning of Christian Baptism

Welcome to the laborers podcast tonight. We are going to be talking about Baptismal regeneration, is it a gospel issue? We'll discuss it tonight.

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I'm doing good. I'm too blessed to be stressed too flexible. We've been out of shape. Oh.

Well, I'm glad to have you got all you guys back on tonight, um, I Know you guys have been super busy and sicknesses has been going around and it's been a crazy winter It seems like for everybody. So you guys ready to talk about baptismal regeneration?

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Absolutely. Just a couple announcements. Claude is our other labor he's teaching tonight. I think this is this is third class and he's doing it for eight weeks. So check out Claude and his teaching. We we're having the labors conference coming up the end of April.

April 26 to the 28th at refer motto Baptist Church at Pastor Claude's Church, you can go to labors conference comm to register. It's a free conference. We'd love to see you there and worship with you and learn together.

At that conference gonna be the the work of the Holy Spirit being empowered by the Holy Spirit or his empowerment in the local church. So yeah, it's gonna be a good time. Baptismal regeneration who wants to start?

What what do we mean by baptismal regeneration? That's one of those Christianese were just big big theological seminary word. Maybe people might think what's baptismal regeneration?

I'll let somebody who went to a big seminary do it a.

Big one.

I mean, I'm just a little John Jones from Cherville, North Carolina.

Baptismal regeneration is the is the doctrine that says that baptism is.

A.

Mean, well, it can mean a couple different things. But mainly it means that baptism is a way of initiating salvation or or justification.

Now.

Some people are going to disagree with that depending on what tradition you come from how you understand all the words. I just said but basically what it means is a baptism is.

The.

Thing that causes regeneration to take place or is the time at which regeneration takes place. So for for some people That are More of a credo about this about ties on a profession of faith. They would say that as you make a profession of faith you enter the waters and come up that that's the point at which you are saved for a more.

Say those who are from a pedo-baptistic Background. It's like say for infant baptism. If a baby is baptized that says that that enters them into covenant with God and and saves them. Then there's some debate on how long that lasts.

If it lasts if it can be lost or given up later on in life but that is. That's that's it in a confusing nutshell that we can unpack for the rest of our time together.

Gotcha.

So are there some people that that hold to and believe that it's baptism. Water specifically water baptism. Saves you. Is that what we mean by baptismal regeneration? Yes, I.

Think I think the term to simplify it just a little bit maybe is the term necessary for salvation. So the words like regenerate, I think it's or that you're not saved until you've been water baptized so so that's that's more of.

Church of Christ is I think one of the predominant denominations today that is. Is a major advocate and proponent for it and so. It's it's necessary for salvation. I think it's a simple way to say it.

So so it's it's a part of the process. You know, maybe that simplifies it a little bit because everything dance, right? But whether it's paid or credo, whoever would hold to Baptism or regeneration would say it's that baptism is necessary.

It's it's it's a part of the salvation process.

The Relationship Between Water Baptism and Spirit Baptism

So we talked about. This leaning more towards the water aspect of baptism is there. Does the Bible describe a baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Yes. Okay. I mean I thought was yes or no question. So.

It is a yes or no question, but but it's. There's a relationship there and there's. I'm wondering if if you've seen in your experience where there's confusion between the two. Um. One emphasizes one of the other or is there a union between the two?

Is there a relationship between the two of the water baptism the Holy Spirit baptism?

Relationship between the two now, I can't say that that makes any Mother, I make that makes any sense to me. Okay, maybe I'm missing something there.

The.

Water baptism as far as I understand it Unnecessary. And in any work as far as work of salvation goes from way I understand water baptism as being something that that we do in And signifying our regeneration in Christ.

It's why I've always heard it say this an outward sign of an inward change is the way that we've worded it piles of times so much so that it's almost cliche the.

The.

Thing is that you're baptized by like your pastor or something or something like that, whereas When you're baptized in the Holy Spirit, the Bible says that Jesus baptized you in the Holy Spirit. It's what they all for all four Gospels say the same thing He kind of he'll baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

So if anybody is baptizing with the Holy Spirit, that's God not not a man. So these two can't be the same. I.

Would argue that Baptism of the Holy Spirit and baptism of water are in relationship with each other and the reason I would say that is not not necessarily one dependent upon the other but independently in relationship and the reason I say that is I would argue that water baptism is a picture of.

Or telling the story of a spirit baptism, you know in 1st Corinthians chapter 12 We're talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit and and Paul writes that we all in 1st Corinthians 12 13 for in one spirit we were all baptized into one body speaking of and that is a spirit baptism and That is the work of regeneration the washing and regenerating and the work of the Holy Spirit.

So you're saturated baptized. The old Romans 6 4 Is talking about a physical baptism, but spiritually the old man is gone. The new man has come. And so when we're baptized in the Holy Spirit, there's a regeneration work.

We're a heart of stone turned to heart of flesh. The old man is dead. All things become new and. And so then water baptism is telling that story Romans 6 4 says you're buried with Christ in baptism. Let's talk on water baptism then raised to walk in a new life.

And so that's. That's the story of the spirit baptism, so. So that's what I would that's how I would say they're in relationship with each other that one is a spiritual invisible matter that is a sovereign work of God and the second then is is a response to testify of of the work of the Holy Spirit by the by Demonstrating through water baptism an act of obedience to the commands of Christ to you know.

When he says go on the world and baptize them. That is a physical baptism. So so we see the process of people all throughout Scripture particularly described in the book of Acts how people would believe and end up on their belief then they would be baptized as a demonstration of that belief and.

But I'd also state that there are some pretty strong proof texts though that those that believe in generational baptism. They're not just Grasping at straws that they do have a few a few I would say. That are pretty potent, you know, and I'm sure we'll get into those in a little bit.

But that's what I'm saying. That's that's where I would say that they're in relationship with each other from my perspective.

Spirit Baptism, Salvation, and Pentecostal Endowment of Power

So in your perspective, you're saying that you equate baptism in the Holy Spirit with salvation.

Well, it depends on what the nomination you're from. Yeah, so baptism of the Holy Spirit it if if I'm in a Baptist Church and. And nobody talks about the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Nobody even uses even uses that term and I think that's a shame if I'm with my Pentecostal brothers.

You know, then they asked me I've been baptized the Holy Spirit most time. They asked me do I speak in tongues and I think that's a shame because I don't think either one or accurate. Questions of of what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is.

So yeah, I think I think There are a couple things primarily. I think scripturally speaking. When Paul's talking to 1st Corinthians 12, he's talking about salvation and then I think the term baptize of the Holy Spirit.

And with my Pentecostal boys and you may tell me different John but the ones I hang out with anyways. They're talking about an endowment with power and they use the term baptism of Holy Spirit. As a as an acts 1 8 statement when you receive the Holy Spirit you will have power to do these things.

And so they use it to the term baptism Holy Spirit to describe an endowment of power. I don't see that in Scripture so that's why I don't use the term baptism Holy Spirit for for You know manifestation of gifts or an endowment of power.

I don't I don't think that's what it's talking about. I think it's pretty plain in Scripture that like 1st Corinthians 12 were baptized into the body. So it's talking about the oneness of the body and what is the one single thing we have in common?

It would be all been baptized in the Holy Spirit. Into the body of Christ. Now, what is the diversity? There's a diversity of gifts that are necessary to function in the body. And so that's where in 1st Corinthians 12, I'm basing my definition on that, you know, so.

But I understand the term based on who you're hanging out with, you know what I mean? And so I think that's the part that's hard sometimes in the body of Christ we have the languages of Zion and depending on what group you hang out with they'll throw out a term and It's depending on who you hang out with what they mean like interpreting that.

So I don't mean that belittling to anybody because I like it both I think there is a baptism into the body and then I think there is a there is endowment with power that comes from the Holy Spirit and.

So I'd rather and this is just me so I don't want to mess anybody up. But I believe baptism of Holy Spirit is what everyone receives and then there's anointings of The Holy Spirit that you've been anointed for certain things that that are endowment of power.

And so That's how I usually simplified in my mind.

But I and I and I would probably differ with you on on that and that I do tend to. Not just because I'm Pentecostal but the way that I'm what I've always read that scripture there seems to be a defining moment not They were in do the Apostles were in dude with power.

Yes, but There seems to be a a totally separate moment whenever each person is is described during the when the Holy Spirit baptizes them and Sometimes this happens Completely absent of any water baptism in an upper room.

We don't read of any water baptism happening Within the entire time they're there. But we do see what what I'm going to call a baptism of the Holy Spirit and acts appreciating Acts chapter 2 whenever they go to Cornelius's house you see Them baptized with water and then you see the Holy Spirit move on them and baptize them Preceding that which is a separate incident.

You see Philip and the archbishop and there's absolutely zero evidence that the arch or the eunuch the archbishop was baptized in the Holy Spirit, but he was baptized in water and then I'm Forgetting exactly where it is.

I want to say it's an axe whenever Paul runs up on a guy who's defending the gospel and he says Well, what baptism were you baptized? He says John's baptism, which I understand to be a baptism of repentance Which is not far removed from what we would consider I think understanding salvation to some degree and Then he he describes to him a better way and then he receives the Holy Spirit.

Well, that's in that's in the disciples of Ephesus. And so what I'm saying is we're saying the same thing there there's there's an event of salvation and Then the work of the Holy Spirit is in that work of salvation.

We're saying water baptism is independent of anything of that. Mm-hmm, and then you do that then there is a Endowment of power. So the semantics of that. It could be called baptism of the Holy Spirit on both of those if you want to again.

It depends on what great but the Bible doesn't specifically call the endowment of power Baptism the Holy Spirit. He just says they receive the Holy Spirit, but for us to quantify it. So I'm just trying to I'm trying to make the definition of regenerational baptism to differentiate.

Regeneration of the Holy Spirit is not a work of Water baptism told it with you. They're different with it and in the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to me, I don't really care if you call it baptism or endowment or anointing or Received the you know, I mean those kind of things but scripturally speaking where it talks about baptism of the Holy Spirit this one specific places in 1st Corinthians 12 and you have to parse through that to To come up with that definition.

That's all I'm saying. So I understand exactly where you're at. And I don't necessarily I don't think we do disagree John. I think it's I think it's semantics.

I think that there's a difference between an end between in dwelling and baptism and. And that would get into a longer conversation that we have we could have off-camera if you wanted to.

Sure.

No, I appreciate you guys flushing that out a little bit because there's. There's misconceptions there's misunderstandings. By using the same word for and different denominations mean different things but by using the same word and so.

John's drinking coffee.

That's right, well you guys flushing this out a little bit. I think it helped helped me and helps others to understand where you're coming from. So for clarification on the Pentecostal side. Would you call that?

Sanctification, Preparation, and the Spirit’s Power for Ministry

Initial salvation.

Baptism the Holy Spirit. No, sir. Okay. No, sir. Whenever someone's born again We would say that they've been they've been born again and that the Spirit of God dwells in them they've been. They've been dwelled the Holy Spirit dwells in them.

They become a temple of the Holy Spirit, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit like Jonathan was be speaking about comes with an endowment of power to some degree and This would be I think some people called it like a second blessing.

I don't know that I like the way they worded that. That was something they said early in the 1900s wasn't it Pastor John?

That's right.

But I think that that's I think that that's something that Whether or not you call it that I think everybody sort of experiences at the same way. For instance before You ever joined ministry brother Dan.

Did. Did you get up from your knees of accepting Christ and into the pulpit? Was that as simple as it sounded. That was as simple as it sounded. Did you get off knees and get into the pulpit the.

Same day. No, not the same day. It happened just there's time in between. Had a time for time. For what? Had to grow had to know the Lord better. Had to learn be built up in the spirit.

Exactly. Yeah, you know.

Absolutely, and all I'm saying is John I think what we're talking about too is It is a process of sanctification. I think sometimes the Lord does a work in people's life that sanctification runs from A to A to G in in One minute, you know what?

I mean? God does that he like he he just moved someone rapidly in a miraculous way Damascus Road moment sure Paul in just a matter of Confronted with Jesus filled with the Holy Ghost Struck down blind laid hands on by Ananias.

Yeah, it's up that very day and goes and preaches in the temple and declares Christ like. And then I think other people their sanctification process is one month two months at a time going from a to b to c and I wouldn't say that they are any less in dude with power.

It's that their journey is different than one. That's That that goes from so that that's the one that's the only place that I push back with with some of my brothers I had this conversation this past week.

So I guess that's why it's fresh on mine. So I don't want to I don't want to distract us from baptismal generation. But but sometimes I know you don't I know you don't do this. And but I have Confronted and hung out with some brothers that I think our brothers that love the Lord and love the Holy Spirit and love the Word of God.

But even pastors who'd be little church members because they don't have that a to G fire in Like one minute and they're saying you need to be asking for that. If you're not asking for it and not expecting it, then you're not really following Jesus.

Whereas where God may have them in their sanctification process may be May be a deeper well that they don't even see know that it's it's a plotting versus a sprinting and That is all described in the body of Christ.

I think that's what Paul is saying is why some are an iron some of an ear and Or a mouthpiece and some are afoot and some are at hand, you know I mean like we need each of those in the body because we do need sprinters.

We need those that are like their hair is on fire. And I mean they're trailblazers and then we need those that live a quiet simple life as described To in the scriptures that they live a quiet script simple Biblical life honoring the Lord and no one ever knows them, but God knows them, you know I think all that's a part of the body.

So I thought that's what I mean. I think it's it's easy to to to miss interpret scripture based on Someone's experience or someone's testimony. And so I think we should rejoice.

In.

In wherever those testimonies of sanctification are. And so you're saying the same thing but that's I just want to draw us back into that the fundamental scriptural thing because. This pastor was frustrated because he's Praying for the fire of God and the anointing of the Holy Spirit and and I'm like well What determines that.

And he had his list of things that he was expecting to see? And I said, well what if God chooses not to do it that way? Is it any less God and he goes? Well, you know, I've never thought about that and and so then he called me back a couple days later and and I gave him some homework to to write down the things where he does see God working.

And it totally shifted his perspective on his congregation. Because this was in a Pentecostal church, you know, and he was just very frustrated. That he's not seeing what he thinks is Pentecostal ism.

And I said well Pentecostal ism does not define who God is neither does Baptist define who God is. God defines who God is. That's right. God says I would do what I do you know and so. So just you know that that's all I'm trying to say is when we get into these definitions I think sometimes it's important to the to press in on.

Even with baptismal regeneration pressing in on that of really getting down to the meaning of it, you know.

And I appreciate what you're talking about sanctification. But but what I really meant by by that when I talked to brother Dan and and he answered the way that I figured he Would which is one reason why I asked him Wasn't about his sanctification before he went to the pulpit.

It was about his preparation. It was about being prepared and and what what I tend to believe and my denomination does teach this. But I think I believe this before I was a part of the nomination. There's there's people who are called and gifted to do certain things and Like you were talking about not all things are they I not all of the ear not all of the hand.

And I do believe that God has called some to two different forms of ministry and in that I Believe that it's the endowment with power that prepares you for that work. And I believe that that endowment happens at the baptism of the Holy Spirit and that's a time of God's choosing and I will agree with you that there's a lot of people who have a Formula they feel like worked out in their head as to what this looks like how this happens what you do to make this happen.

And one of the things that I think is frustrated more. Pentecostal believers at least know it frustrated me for years.

Was.

That things weren't happening the way that I was told they were supposed to happen and And I was missing out All the time on the things that God was doing through through the ministry that I was a part of the whole wall not understanding That that the preparations and the things that's that's for him to do That's for him to uphold and that happens at this at this baptism of the Holy Spirit in in my understanding of Scripture and And I you know there's guys like Paul Washer that I've heard teach on this and they hold a very similar view at least in it.

One sermon I Listened to to the way that I'm trying to describe it and I must not be doing a good job.

I.

Think that regeneration is just as much a sovereign work of God as.

The.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a sovereign work of God and you don't force his hand on either one of these things. Nor do you get to tell him and what capacity you're going to work? You're going to do them or how he's going to use it.

So I would say that water baptism Has absolutely doesn't have really anything to do with your salvation. But you should be obedient and be baptized if you've been if you've been born again. Should you have the opportunity?

And if you don't have the opportunity, we don't see the thief on the cross baptized say These is there any but any reason to believe that he's in hail right now. So clearly, it's not necessary for salvation and It appears that whenever Philip and the eunuch are talking that really the only designating factor for him being baptized is that he one believed and two there was water and Not to poke fun at anybody.

But like all the way over his head not just not just the top part of his head and not just sprinkled.

It runs down.

It's good that you guys are making that confession because that was a question that was asked of me earlier today, you know. What do you guys believe or what? You know, what do certain denominations believe about baptism regeneration?

So you guys are making that confession about what you believe and and we're we're talking about the difference between water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit and that there is a difference and. That you guys are taking the stand at least so far from what I've heard that that baptism regeneration Is something that you don't hold to as far as concerning water.

Water doesn't say.

Exactly So it quenches your thirst and it washes you.

And and then you you may have some more input once we get to the next question, but before I get to that question Tyler do you have any input on anything that's been said so far. And also. You you guys have mentioned one denomination.

That that holds to this the Church of Christ. Are there any other denominations? Say Yes that.

Holds a baptismal regeneration. Well, I know that some of my Lutheran buddies over on Twitter would agree with a version of baptismal regeneration. Hmm. I know that the Anglicans and the Episcopals have a version as well and then you can even go outside the Protestant sect to Eastern Orthodox have their own version of baptismal regeneration.

And they kind of take it to an extent like what Dan was saying earlier with infant baptism of this idea that the The infant is brought into the covenant that they're washing their sins as a baby that way.

They become a Christian as an infant that way in the Eastern Orthodox. So it it's a bit broad. Hmm, I think a lot of denominations have a version of it with their own definition. With the exception of the Presbyterians the Pentecostals and the Baptists.

Baptist and Presbyterian Differences on Covenant Baptism

Really kind of leads into the next question. We talked about some clarifying information when it comes to Church of God Pentecostal and The Baptist. What about between Baptist and and Presbyterian when it comes to baptism?

What are some of the differences in? Understanding of baptism.

Like like in general, yeah, just just in general just how much time do we have? Well, oh where to start, um.

Let me ask a question to help you Dan. Does there's the baptism of Conservative Presbyterian and conservative. Not. Obviously neither one of us are regenerative baptism. Does the mean is the meaning different in the two between credo and pedo?

For Presbyterian and Baptist is the meaning different. It it might be. It would really depend.

The the idea behind baptism at least in the Presbyterian Church is that That upon your baptism you you are entering into the new covenant. So you are you're in covenant with God based on on that's what this the Baptism is signifying that you are you are in covenant relationship with Christ.

Now some people through lack of faith Will walk away from that covenant. We're not saying they lose their salvation. We're saying that they're they're a part of a covenant that they have broken they have rejected God's salvation.

Whereas the Baptist wouldn't say that because they they understand that the new cut they understand the new covenant and salvation to be almost synonymous, so if if you're saved you're a part of the new covenant, whereas the Presbyterians believe that that more like the old covenant if If you are a if you're a member of old covenant Israel and you broke covenant with God you could be kicked out of the covenant.

It's it's much the same way with the the Presbyterian understanding of it, so it's a little bit different in that respect. However for the believer I would say that it's it's. It's roughly the same. It was a little lady voice in there for sorry, that was my watch.

So it's it's largely the same for the believer though. You're being marked off as as Christ. You're being marked off as one who's who's been washed by the Holy Spirit we the Presbyterians do believe that baptism that Is is given to a believer is is a work of God showing his mercy upon them.

Whereas if unbeliever doesn't receive it by faith is not going to receive water baptism in a Way that's efficacious or it's effective towards your salvation. So, I don't know I may have just opened up a can of worms with questions to follow.

But all the question I'd have is is interesting how you phrased the description of. So baptism for infants puts them in the covenant I think is what what I understood you saying. Mm-hmm, so.

We.

To dig into then is the is is the covenant That is in Christ. Is it dependent upon God's? Sustaining the covenant or man sustaining the covenant and I think that's that's because I feel like I don't. I don't think you meant it this way, but I The way it leads me to deduct logically was what you described is they enter into covenant?

God doesn't have the power to sustain them. So therefore they leave the covenant and God kicks them out whereas what we're from a from a Reform perspective. I Believe the covenant is sustained by God and God is able to keep you like no one Plucks him out of your hand and if you do leave that means that you never really one of the covenant anyways.

First John 2 19 if you do leave it's a demonstration there were part of the covenant to begin with. So I'm just saying I logically I just I feel like that leads to a pretty Man centered theology if we're not careful.

I know you don't mean it that way, but that's that's what I'm hearing so I want to give you an opportunity to Press in a little further just a little bit because I think that statement on but because that to me.

It's almost like you're describing Regenerational baptism because you're saying by being baptized now, you've entered into covenant with God and that's.

Right, but the the big distinction is that the Presbyterians don't believe that Being a member of the new covenant is synonymous with having salvation or with regeneration. That rather, right? They're not they're not the same the.

The.

The new covenant is is the promise of God to save people through his son. That that covenant has been made between Christ and his church. Now we believe that church to be not only the invisible church, but also the visible church.

So that the promise of salvation lays within the church. Now who is actually saved are those who? Who come to Christ in faith not being a good? Calvinist. I believe that God is the one who draws.

Calls.

Grants faith and repentance and brings his people on home, but that That promise that that is lies within his church more Visibly than invisibly. Does that make sense?

Kinda.

Do what. I'm glad I'm Pentecost.

I'm too stupid to understand everything. You just said. All right, let me let me put it this way in the in the old covenant You had folks who were a part of the covenant because they were born into the nation of Israel that's right had the The benefits of being in that covenant that they they had the the oracles of God right there in front of them.

They heard the word of God, they saw the Red Sea part they had the prophets speaking to them.

They had benefits, you know on down the line. They wouldn't be considered that until 8th day of circumcision, right?

Day-to-day of circumcision they'd be recognized as. Their circumcision would recognize them as members of that covenant or or after.

Whenever if like if foreigners came in they had there had the process to get to. But what I'm trying to say is. Like yeah, but even though they were in the realm of benefit They were not a part of the covenant like there were people that were the nation of Israel.

By but but they weren't but they weren't grafted in they weren't they weren't they weren't Israel. And so that I think that's what Paul was saying. Not all of Israel is Israel. So even though that they're gleaning off of the blessings of the covenant, they're living in the physical manifestation of the covenant.

They are not in covenant with God.

But they were in covenant with God, which is why God had so much to say about those who broke covenant with him.

Sure, so.

When they broke covenant God spoke to them. He then, you know Said you're gone and even said here if you break covenant with me I'm going to do this this and this will remove you from your land. You're gonna go off into exile.

You're gonna stay over there for a while and then he promised a Redeemer to come Christ who would bring them back. We understand the new covenant to be of the same nature that there are those who are born into the covenant By nature of their birth, but that doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to have salvation.

What that means is they're they're a part of the people who have the oracles of God who have the Word of God who Hear the gospel preached to them who have the sacraments who have all of the promises of God set before them.