Baptismal Regeneration- Laborers' Podcast #baptism #regeneration #salvation

Welcome to the Laborers Podcast. Tonight we are going to be talking about baptismal regeneration.

Is it a gospel issue? We'll discuss it tonight. Stay with us. Welcome to the

Laborers Podcast, which is a part of the Truth in Love Network. Join us as together we strive to grow up together in all things in the

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Now let's join our laborers for tonight's broadcast. I want to thank everybody for who's already on live and watching.

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Just let us know that you're watching. Look at all the laborers we have tonight. How's it going, guys?

Good. How are you doing? I'm doing good. I'm too blessed to be stressed, too flexible.

We've been out of shape. I'm glad to have all you guys back on tonight.

I know you guys have been super busy and sicknesses have been going around. It's been a crazy winter, it seems like, for everybody.

You guys ready to talk about baptismal regeneration? Yes. Good. I'm glad.

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Just remove it. I hit remove and then I added it back like I never removed it and put it up there.

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Absolutely. Just a couple of announcements. Claude is our other laborer.

He's teaching tonight. This is his third class and he's doing it for eight weeks. Check out

Claude and his teaching. We're having a labors conference coming up at the end of April, April 26th through the 28th at Refromata Baptist Church at Pastor Claude's church.

You can go to laborsconference .com to register. It's a free conference. We'd love to see you there and worship with you and learn together at that conference.

It's going to be the work of the Holy Spirit, being empowered by the Holy Spirit or his empowerment in the local church.

Yeah, it's going to be a good time. Baptismal regeneration. Who wants to start? What do we mean by baptismal regeneration?

That's one of those Christianese words, big theological seminary word maybe people might think.

What's baptismal regeneration? I'll let somebody who went to a big seminary do it.

A big one. I mean, I'm just a little John Jones from Cherville, North Carolina.

Baptismal regeneration is the doctrine that says that baptism is a mean, well, it can mean a couple of different things, but mainly it means that baptism is a way of initiating salvation or justification.

Now, some people are going to disagree with that, depending on what tradition you come from, how you understand all the words that I just said, but basically what it means is that baptism is the thing that causes regeneration to take place, or is the time at which regeneration takes place.

For some people that are more of a credo

Baptist, baptized on a profession of faith, they would say that as you make a profession of faith, you enter the waters and come up, that that's the point at which you are saved.

For those who are from a pedo -Baptistic background, say for infant baptism, if a baby is baptized, it says that that enters them into covenant with God and saves them.

Then there's some debate on how long that lasts, if it lasts, if it can be lost or given up later on in life, but that's it in a confusing nutshell that we can unpack for the rest of our time together.

So are there some people that hold to and believe that baptism, specifically water baptism, saves you?

Is that what we mean by baptismal regeneration? Yes. I think the term, to simplify it just a little bit, maybe is the term necessary for salvation.

So the words like regenerate, I think it's, or that you're not saved until you've been water baptized.

So that's more of church of Christ, as I think one of the predominant denominations today that is a major advocate and proponent for it.

So it's necessary for salvation, I think is a simple way to say it.

So it's a part of the process. Maybe that simplifies it a little bit because everything

Dan says is right. But whether it's pedo or credo, whoever would hold to baptismal regeneration would say that baptism is necessary.

It's a part of the salvation process. So we talked about this leaning more towards the water aspect of baptism.

Is there, does the Bible describe a baptism of the Holy Spirit? Yes. Okay.

I mean, I thought it was a yes or no question. It sounded like a yes or no question. It is a yes or no question, but it's, there's a relationship there and there's,

I'm wondering if you've seen in your experience where there's confusion between the two, one emphasizes one of the other or is there a union between the two?

Is there a relationship between the two of the water baptism, the Holy Spirit baptism? Relationship between the two.

Now I can't say that that makes any sense to me.

Maybe I'm missing something there. The water baptism, as far as I understand it, unnecessary in any work, as far as work of salvation goes from way

I understand water baptism as being something that we do in and signifying our regeneration in Christ.

It's the way I've always heard it said, it's an outward sign of an inward change is the way that we've worded it thousands of times.

So much so that it's almost cliche. The thing is that you're baptized by like your pastor or something like that.

Whereas when you're baptized in the Holy Spirit, the Bible says that Jesus baptized you in the

Holy Spirit. It's where they all four, all four gospels say the same thing. He kind of, he'll baptize you with the

Holy Spirit and with fire. So if anybody is baptized with the Holy Spirit, it's

God, not a man. So these two can't be the same. I would argue that baptism of the

Holy Spirit and baptism of water are in relationship with each other. And the reason I would say that is not necessarily one dependent upon the other, but independently in relationship.

And the reason I say that is I would argue that water baptism is a picture of, or telling the story of a spirit baptism.

In first Corinthians chapter 12, we're talking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And Paul writes that we all in first baptized into one body, speaking of, and that is a spirit baptism.

And that is the work of regeneration, the washing and regenerating and the work of the Holy Spirit. So you're saturated, baptized.

The old Romans 6, 4 is talking about a physical baptism, but spiritually the old man is gone.

The new man has come. And so when we're baptized in the Holy Spirit, there's a regeneration work where a heart of stone turned to heart of flesh.

The old man is dead. All things become new. And so then water baptism is telling that story.

Romans 6, 4 says you're buried with Christ in baptism. Let's talk on water baptism, then raised to walk in a new life.

And so that's the story of the spirit baptism. So that's how

I would say they're in relationship with each other, that one is a spiritual invisible matter that is a sovereign work of God.

And the second then is a response to testify of the work of the

Holy Spirit by demonstrating through water baptism and active obedience to the commands of Christ too.

When he says go on the world and baptize them, that is a physical baptism. So we see the process of people all throughout scripture, particularly described in the book of Acts, how people would believe and end up on their belief, then they would be baptized as a demonstration of that belief.

But I'd also say that there are some pretty strong proof texts though that those that believe in generational baptism, they're not just grasping at straws.

They do have a few, I would say, that are pretty potent, and I'm sure we'll get into those in a little bit, but that's what

I'm saying. That's where I would say that they're in relationship with each other from my perspective. So in your perspective, you're saying that you equate baptism of the

Holy Spirit with salvation? Well, it depends on what denomination you're from. That's why

I was asking you. Yeah. So baptism of the Holy Spirit, if I'm in a Baptist church and nobody talks about the baptism of the

Holy Spirit, nobody even uses that term. And I think that's a shame. If I'm with my

Pentecostal brothers, then they ask me, have you been baptized in the Holy Spirit? Most of the time they ask me, do I speak in tongues?

And I think that's a shame because I don't think either one are accurate questions of what the baptism of the

Holy Spirit is. So yeah, I think there are a couple of things.

Primarily, I think, scripturally speaking, when Paul's talking to 1 Corinthians 12, he's talking about salvation.

And then I think the term baptized of the Holy Spirit with my

Pentecostal boys, and you may tell me different, John, but the ones I hang out with anyways, they're talking about an power.

And they use the term baptism of Holy Spirit as a, as an ax one, eight statement.

When you receive the Holy Spirit, you will have power to do these things. And so they use it to the term baptism,

Holy Spirit to describe an endowment of power. I don't see that in scripture. So that's why

I don't use the term baptism of the Holy Spirit for, for, you know, manifestation of gifts or an endowment of power.

I don't, I don't think that's what it's talking about. I think it's pretty plain in scripture that like 1

Corinthians 12, we're baptized into the body. So it's talking about the oneness of the body and what is the one single thing we have in common.

It would be all been baptized in the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. Now, what is the diversity?

There's a diversity of gifts that are necessary to function in the body. And so that's where in 1

Corinthians 12, I'm basing my definition on that, you know, so but I understand the term based on who you're hanging out with, you know what

I mean? And so I think that's the part that's hard. Sometimes in the body of Christ, we have the languages of Zion and depending on what group you hang out with, they'll throw out a term and it's depending on who you hang out with, what they mean like interpreting that.

So, so I don't mean that belittling to anybody because I like it both. I think there is a baptism into the body. And then

I think there is a, there is endowment with power that comes from the Holy Spirit. And so I'd rather, and this is just me, so I don't want to mess anybody up, but I believe baptism of the

Holy Spirit is what everyone receives. And then there's anointings of the Holy Spirit that you've been anointed for certain things that are endowment of power.

And so that's how I usually simplify it in my mind. But I, and I, and I would probably differ with you on, on that.

And that I do tend to not just because I'm Pentecostal, but the way that I'm, the way

I've always read that scripture, there seems to be a defining moment.

They were endued, the apostles were endued with power. Yes. But there seems to be a, a totally separate moment whenever each person is, is described during the, when the

Holy Spirit baptizes them. And sometimes this happens completely absent of any water baptism in the upper room.

We don't read of any water baptism happening within the entire time they're there, but we do see what, what

I'm going to call a baptism of the Holy Spirit in Acts, preceding Acts chapter two, whenever they go to Cornelius's house, you see them baptized with water, and then you see the

Holy Spirit move on them and baptize them. Preceding that, which is a separate incident, you see

Philip and the Archbishop, and there's absolutely zero evidence that the Arch, or the eunuch, the

Archbishop was baptized in the Holy Spirit, but he was baptized in water. And then I'm, I'm forgetting exactly where it is.

I want to say it's in Acts, whenever Paul runs up on a guy who's defending the gospel and he says, well, what baptism were you baptized?

He says, John's baptism, which I understand to be a baptism of repentance, which is not far removed from what we would consider,

I think, understanding salvation to some degree. And then he, he describes to him a better way.

And then he receives the Holy Spirit. Well, that's in, that's in the disciples of Ephesus. And so what

I'm saying is we're saying the same thing. There, there's, there's an event of salvation, and then the work of the

Holy Spirit is in that work of salvation. We're saying water baptism is independent of anything of that.

And then there is a endowment of power. So the semantics of that, it could be called baptism of the

Holy Spirit on both of those, if you want to, again, it depends on what group, but the Bible doesn't specifically call the endowment of power, baptism of the

Holy Spirit. It just says they receive the Holy Spirit, but for us to quantify it. So I'm just trying to,

I'm trying to make the definition of regenerational baptism to differentiate regeneration of the

Holy Spirit is not a work of water baptism. Totally with you.

And in the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, to me, I don't really care if you call it baptism or endowment or anointing or received, you know,

I mean, those kinds of things, but scripturally speaking, where it talks about baptism of the Holy Spirit, this one specific place is in first Corinthians 12, and you have to parse through that to, to come up with that definition.

That's all I'm saying. So I understand exactly where you're at. And I don't necessarily, I don't think we do disagree, John. I think it's,

I think it's semantics. I think that there's a difference between an end, between indwelling and baptism.

And, and that would get into a longer conversation that we could have off camera if you wanted to.

Sure. No, I appreciate you guys fleshing that out a little bit because there's, there's misconceptions, there's misunderstandings by using the same word for, and different denominations mean different things, but by using the same word.

And so John's drinking coffee. Well, you guys fleshing this out a little bit.

I think it helps me and helps others to understand where you're coming from. So for clarification on the

Pentecostal side, would you call that initial salvation baptism of the

Holy Spirit? No, sir. Okay. No, sir. Whenever someone's born again, we would say that they've been, they've been born again and that the

Spirit of God dwells in them. They've been, they've been dwelled, the Holy Spirit dwells in them.

They become a temple of the Holy Spirit, but the baptism of the Holy Spirit, like Jonathan was speaking about, comes with an endowment of power to some degree.

And this would be, I think some people called it like a second blessing. I don't know that I liked the way they worded that.

That was something they said early in the 1900s, wasn't it, Pastor John? That's right. But I think that that's,

I think that that's something that, whether or not you call it that,

I think everybody sort of experiences that the same way. For instance, before you ever joined ministry,

Brother Dan, did you get up from your knees accepting Christ and into the pulpit?

Was that as simple as it sounded? That was as simple as it sounded. Did you get off your knees and get into the pulpit the same day?

No, not the same day. It happened, just there was time in between. Time for what?

Had to grow, had to know the Lord better, had to learn, be built up in the Spirit. Exactly.

Absolutely. All I'm saying is, John, I think what we're talking about too is it is a process of sanctification.

I think sometimes the Lord does a work in people's life that sanctification runs from A to G in one minute.

You know what I mean? God does that. He just moves someone rapidly in a miraculous way,

Damascus Road moment, Paul in just a matter of confronted with Jesus, filled with the

Holy Ghost, struck down blind, laid hands on my Ananias, gets up that very day and goes and preaches in the temple and declares

Christ. Then I think other people, their sanctification process is one month, two months at a time, going from A to B to C.

I wouldn't say that they are any less endued with power, it's that their journey is different than one that goes from...

That's the only place that I push back with some of my brothers. I had this conversation this past week, so I guess that's why it's fresh on my mind.

I don't want to distract us from baptismal regeneration, but sometimes...

I know you don't. I know you don't do this, but I have confronted and hung out with some brothers that I think are brothers that love the

Lord and love the Holy Spirit and love the Word of God, but even pastors who belittle church members because they don't have that A to G fire in one minute and they're saying, you need to be asking for that.

If you're not asking for it and not expecting it, then you're not really following Jesus. Whereas where God may have them in their sanctification process may be a deeper well that they don't even see, that it's a plotting versus a sprinting.

That is all described in the body of Christ. I think that's what Paul is saying is why some are an eye and some of an ear and some are a mouthpiece and some are a foot and some are a hand.

We need each of those in the body because we do need sprinters. We need those that are like their hair is on fire and they're trailblazers.

Then we need those that live a quiet, simple life as described too in the scriptures, that they live a quiet, simple, biblical life honoring the

Lord. No one ever knows them, but God knows them. I think all that's a part of the body. That's what

I mean. I think it's easy to misinterpret scripture based on someone's experience or someone's testimony.

I think we should rejoice in wherever those testimonies of sanctification are.

You're saying the same thing, but I just want to draw us back into the fundamental scriptural thing because this pastor was frustrated because he's praying for the fire of God and the anointing of the

Holy Spirit. I'm like, well, what determines that? He had his list of things that he was expecting to see.

I said, well, what if God chooses not to do it that way? Is it any less God? He goes, well, you know,

I've never thought about that. Then he called me back a couple days later and I gave him some homework to write down the things where he does see

God working. It totally shifted his perspective on his congregation because this was in a

Pentecostal church. He was just very frustrated that he's not seeing what he thinks is

Pentecostalism. I said, well, Pentecostalism does not define who God is. Neither does Baptist define who

God is. God defines who God is. That's right. God says, I will do what I do. That's all

I'm trying to say is when we get into these definitions, I think sometimes it's important to press in on even baptismal regeneration, pressing in on that of really getting down to the meaning of it.

I appreciate what you're talking about, sanctification, but what I really meant by that when I talked to Brother Dan, and he answered the way that I figured he would, which is one of the reasons why

I asked him, wasn't about his sanctification before he went to the pulpit. It was about his preparation.

It was about being prepared. What I tend to believe, and my denomination does teach this, but I think

I believed this before I was a part of the denomination. There's people who are called and gifted to do certain things.

Like you were talking about, not all things are the eye, not all are the ear, not all are the hand. I do believe that God has called some to different forms of ministry.

In that, I believe that it's the endowment with power that prepares you for that work.

I believe that that endowment happens at the baptism of the Holy Spirit. That's a time of God's choosing.

I will agree with you that there's a lot of people who have a formula they feel worked out in their head as to what this looks like, how this happens, what you do to make this happen.

One of the things that I think has frustrated more Pentecostal believers, at least frustrated me for years, was that things weren't happening the way that I was told they were supposed to happen.

I was missing out all the time on the things that God was doing through the ministry that I was a part of.

The whole of the while not understanding that the preparations and the things, that's for him to do.

That's for him to uphold. That happens at this baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In my understanding of scripture, there's guys like Paul Washer that I've heard teach on this.

They hold a very similar view, at least in one sermon I was listening to, to the way that I'm trying to describe it. I must not be doing a good job.

I think that regeneration is just as much a sovereign work of God as the baptism of the

Holy Spirit is a sovereign work of God. You don't force his hand on either one of these things, nor do you get to tell him in what capacity you're going to work, you're going to do them, or how he's going to use you.

I would say that water baptism doesn't have really anything to do with your salvation, but you should be obedient and be baptized if you've been born again, should you have the opportunity.

If you don't have the opportunity, we don't see the thief on the cross baptized. Is there any reason to believe that he's in hell right now?

Clearly, it's not necessary for salvation. It appears that whenever Philip and the eunuch are talking, that really the only designating factor for him being baptized is that he, one, believed, and two, there was water.

Not to poke fun at anybody, but all the way over his head, not just the top part of his head and not just sprinkled.

It runs down. It's good that you guys are making that confession, because that was a question that was asked of me earlier today.

What do you guys believe, or what do certain denominations believe about baptismal regeneration?

You guys are making that confession about what you believe, and we're talking about the difference between water baptism and baptism of the

Holy Spirit, and that there is a difference, and that you guys are taking the stand, at least so far from what

I've heard, that baptism regeneration is something that you don't hold to as far as concerning water.

Water doesn't save you. Exactly. It quenches your thirst, and it washes you.

Dan, you may have some more input once we get to the next question, but before I get to that question,

Tyler, do you have any input on anything that's been said so far? And also, you guys have mentioned one denomination that holds to this, the

Church of Christ. Are there any other denominations, sects,

S -T -C -T -S, that hold to baptismal regeneration? Well, I know that some of my

Lutheran buddies over on Twitter would agree with a version of baptismal regeneration. I know that the

Anglicans and the Episcopals have a version as well. And then you can even go outside the

Protestant sect to the Eastern Orthodox, have their own version of baptismal regeneration.

And they kind of take it to an extent, like what Dan was saying earlier with infant baptism, of this idea that the infant is brought into the covenant, that they're washing their sins as a baby that way.

They become a Christian as an infant that way in the Eastern Orthodox. So it's a bit broad.

I think a lot of denominations have a version of it with their own definition, with the exception of the

Presbyterians, the Pentecostals, and the Baptists. So that kind of leads into the next question.

We talked about some clarifying information when it comes to Church of God Pentecostal and the

Baptists. What about between Baptist and Presbyterian when it comes to baptism?

What are some of the differences in understanding of baptism?

Like in general? Yeah, just in general. How much time do we have? All of it.

Well, where to start? Let me ask a question to help you,

Dan. Does the baptism of conservative Presbyterian and conservative, obviously neither one of us are regenerative baptism.

Is the meaning different in the two between Credo and Pedo for Presbyterian and Baptist?

Is the meaning different? It might be. It would really depend. The idea behind baptism, at least in the

Presbyterian Church, is that upon your baptism, you are entering into the new covenant.

So you're in covenant with God based on...

That's what the baptism is signifying. You're in covenant relationship with Christ.

Now, some people, through lack of faith, will walk away from that covenant. We're not saying they lose their salvation.

We're saying that they're a part of a covenant that they have broken. They've rejected God's salvation.

Whereas the Baptist wouldn't say that because they understand the new covenant and salvation to be almost synonymous.

So if you're saved, you're a part of the new covenant. Whereas the Presbyterians believe that more like the old covenant, if you're a member of the old covenant

Israel and you broke covenant with God, you could be kicked out of the covenant. It's much the same way with the

Presbyterian understanding of it. So it's a little bit different in that respect.

However, for the believer, I would say that it's roughly the same.

That was a little lady voice in there for us. Sorry, that was my watch up here. Sorry. So it's largely the same for the believer though.

You're being marked off as Christ. You're being marked off as one who's been washed by the

Holy Spirit. The Presbyterians do believe that baptism that is given to a believer is a work of God showing his mercy upon them.

Whereas if the unbeliever doesn't receive it by faith is not going to receive water baptism in a way that's efficacious or it's effective towards your salvation.

So I don't know. I may have just opened up a can of worms with questions to follow and whatnot.

Only question I'd have is interesting how you phrased the description of so baptism for infants puts them in the covenant.

I think is what I understood you saying. So I think the deeper well to dig into then is the covenant that is in Christ.

Is it dependent upon God's sustaining the covenant or man sustaining the covenant?

And I think that's because I feel like I don't, I don't think you meant it this way, but the way it leads me to deduct logically was what you described is they enter into covenant.

God doesn't have the power to sustain them. So therefore they leave the covenant and God kicks them out.

Whereas what we're from a, from a reform perspective,

I believe the covenant is sustained by God and God is able to keep you like no one plucks him out of your hand.

And if you do leave, that means that you never really won of the covenant anyways. First John two 19.

If you do leave, it's a demonstration. You never were part of the covenant to begin with. So I'm just saying I logically,

I just, I feel like that leads to a man centered theology if we're not careful. I know you don't mean it that way, but that's, that's what

I'm hearing. So I want to give you an opportunity to press in a little further, just a little bit. Cause I think that statement on that, cause to me, it's almost like you're describing regenerational baptism because you're saying by being baptized, now you've entered into covenant with God and that's right.

But the big distinction is that Presbyterians don't believe that, uh, being a member of the new covenant is synonymous with having salvation or with regeneration that rather, right.

They're, they're not, they're not the same. The, the, the new covenant is, is the promise of God to save people through his son.

That, that covenant has been made between Christ and his church. And we believe that church to be not only the invisible church, but also the visible church so that the promise of salvation lays within the church.

Now who is actually saved are those who, who come to Christ in faith, not being a good

Calvinist. I believe that God is the one who draws, um, calls, uh, grants faith and repentance and brings his people on home.

But that, um, that promise, that is lies within his church more, uh, visibly than, than invisibly.

Does that make sense? Do what

I'm glad I'm Pentecost. I'm too stupid to understand everything you just said.

All right. Let me, let me, let me put it this way. Uh, in the, in the old covenant, you had folks who were a part of the covenant because they were born into the nation of Israel.

They had the, the benefits of being in that covenant that they, they had the, the oracles of God right there in front of them.

They heard the word of God. They saw the red sea part. They had the prophets speaking to them.

They had benefits, you know, on down the line. They wouldn't be considered that until eighth day of circumcision, right?

Uh, day, day of circumcision, they'd be recognized as their circumcision would recognize them as members of that covenant.

Or, or after whenever, if like if foreigners came in, they had, they had the process to get to as well.

But what I'm trying to say is like, yeah, but even though they were in the realm of benefit, they were not a part of the covenant.

Like there were people the nation of Israel by, but, but they weren't, but they weren't grafted in.

They weren't, they weren't, they weren't Israel. And so that I think that's what Paul was saying. Not all of Israel is

Israel. So even though that they're gleaning off of the blessings of the covenant, they're living in the physical manifestation of the covenant.

They are not in covenant with God, but they were in covenant with God, which is why

God had so much to say about those who broke covenant with him. Sure. So when they broke covenant, um,

God spoke to them. He then, uh, you know, said you're gone. And even said here, if you break covenant with me,

I'm going to do this, this, and this will remove you from your land. You're going to go off in exile. You're going to stay over there for a while.

And then he promised a redeemer to come, you know, Christ would bring them back. We understand the new covenant to be of the same nature, that there are those who are born into the covenant by nature of their birth, but that doesn't mean that they're necessarily going to have salvation.

What that means is there are a part of the people who have the oracles of God, who have the word of God, who hear the gospel preached to them, who have the sacraments, who have all of the promises of God set before them.

And it's a great benefit because they get to hear those things, but it's only those who receive those by faith who are actually saved.

And I would say, I believe that God is the one who does that. So God is the one who calls.

He's the one who sustains. He's the one that made the promise in the first place that those who come by faith will find him to be a perfect savior.

And so the promise then of salvation through Christ is given to Christians and to their children and anyone who is far off who will come to the

Lord as well. I have that issue too as a Baptist to make that separation between the, maybe

I'm going to make up a word here, the synonymousness of covenant and salvation. It's just difficult in a

Baptist mind to make that separation. What I heard you talk about is something that we've done in the

Baptist church. My wife was a Baptist and we've done it in the Pentecostal church. To some degree, we have infant dedication and that really doesn't have as much to do with the child as it does the parent and the church.

If you have a child and you want to have your child dedicated, does any other churches do this? Mm -hmm.

I took my children to the front of the church and told the pastor and the church and my wife that I would raise my children in fear and admonition of the

Lord and the church agreed that they would do everything they could do to see the children raised in an environment that was conducive to the gospel, but they weren't baptized.

That was not really a covenant that we were making that our kids entered into.

That was a covenant that we made between us and the Lord that we would do the best we could to make sure that we've done everything we could do for our children to understand what salvation is and understand who

Christ is. Is that similar to what you're talking about, Dan? It's similar, but we would say that God had first made the covenant with us.

Through baptism at that point, we are recognizing that God has called us to be in covenant with Him.

I'd like to ask you a question on that issue as well. You're talking about the infants or children that received this baptism.

Once they get older and they come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, are they baptized again in the

Presbyterian church? Nope. But in most Presbyterian churches, in fact, all of them except for the fellow we talked to yesterday, upon a profession of faith and speaking with the elders, they're then allowed to join the rest of the church at the

Lord's table to partake in communion. I think maybe it's the definition of covenant that I'm tripping up over, too.

I think that's what Robert's saying. It sounds like baptism in Presbyterianism enters you into the covenant.

Is that what you're saying? It's a sign and seal of the promise of God over the person through the new covenant of Jesus Christ.

What differentiates that with regenerational baptism?

Because then I guess what I'm saying is covenant, and I was looking it up where we're going because I don't want to misunderstand the definition.

The very basic definition of covenant is contract between God and person.

That's like covenant with Abraham. That's contract with God and Abraham and the generations of Abraham.

I understand. To me, it sounds like you're defining covenant as an abstract thing.

It's like an overarching system that a person lives in. From a baptistic standpoint, we're saying if I enter into covenant with God, I've entered into a contract with God that by grace through faith, now

I have entered into covenant to be saved. I think that's where there's a confusion.

Using the term covenant, I think is what's stumbling me up a little bit, too. I would agree with that definition of covenant, but I would say that it's

God who initiates the covenant. We're not entering into covenant with God so much as God has called us into covenant with himself.

Sure. I don't have a problem with that. We believe that since he called into covenant a people and their children all throughout the

Old Testament, and we see no change moving into the New Testament, that he's also called us into covenant with us and our children in the

New Testament as well so that we would live in light of the gospel and teach our children as we go this way and that way and by the door and the gate and as we eat.

I understand that. I just think that probably the distinctive then is Presbyterians would say what you're saying is you can be baptized, you've entered into covenant, and regeneration is not a part of that.

Regeneration is not necessarily linked to baptism. No, not baptism.

From what you're saying, regeneration is not even linked to being a part of the covenant. Here's the thing. Regeneration, not necessarily.

Because you're saying an infant would be baptized, they're in the covenant, and then maybe they'll get regenerate later when they become a believer.

From a baptistic standpoint, that's the reason we don't baptize because baptism to us would symbolize regeneration.

That's a very clear distinctive. Baptism symbolizes regeneration for us as well.

But it can't because the baby's not regenerate yet. Maybe, maybe not. We don't really know.

I would point to John the Baptist as being an example.

That's easy though. He's filled with the Holy Spirit whenever he's in his mother's womb. He's baptized whenever he's born. We're saying that if John the

Baptist was, some other ones could as well. I'm not saying this is barely the case. Baptism also, according to the

Westminster Confession of Faith, it says that the benefits of baptism are not necessarily tied to the time at which it's administered.

We do believe that there are real saving benefits to baptism, but those things aren't necessarily tied to the time at which baptism is given to the person.

The benefits of baptism are only for those who are actually saved. The book of Hebrews has the warning passages that I believe calls us to remain in covenant with God, not to turn away from God, to follow

Him, and to remain in covenant with Him. I believe that in 1 Peter 3, where it says that baptism now saves you, that baptism actually is something that saves you, but it's also talking to believers there.

So for the unbeliever, does baptism save them? The answer is no, because what they're doing, an unbeliever who's baptized then is taking to themselves something that doesn't belong to them.

They're claiming a clear conscience before God that they don't have because they haven't made peace with God through Jesus Christ.

I feel like what you said is just in contradiction with each other, because you just said baptism saves, but then you just said the person that's an unbeliever and they get baptized, they're not saved.

So it's like... Baptism saves the believer. It doesn't necessarily, it doesn't save the unbeliever.

There's real grace found in baptism. It's one of the means that God draws us to Himself.

The same with the Lord's Supper, preaching of the gospel, reading the scriptures, all means that God draws people to Himself.

Those things are only effective for salvation, for those who believe and receive them in faith. What I'm not going to argue is that someone can come off the street, say, please put some water on me, and then

I'm saved. Well, of course. Right, right, right. I mean, but that would be a baptism anyway.

Help us to understand how that is not baptismal regeneration. I think that would be helpful.

I actually think I understand what he's saying, and I'm going to try to word it in a different way. Dan, stop me if I'm wrong.

So what you're insinuating is that we've affixed salvation and baptism to a timeline that flows linearly in one direction, in which baptism is always subsequent to regeneration.

That's what we're maintaining as Baptists and Pentecostals. You're saying as a

Presbyterian that the time in which you're baptized is irrelevant, that if someone later applies faith and is born again, then

God sees their baptism as a child and honors that as if they were baptized after they believed.

And you're saying that if someone who was baptized and never has faith in Christ and dies in his sin, then

God doesn't honor his baptism at all. I would go a step further on that last point and say that it's not honored, but they'll be held accountable for receiving a sign for which they had no business to receive.

Dan, I got to tell you, that is a tough one to unpack. I mean, I had to really screw my thinking cap on hard.

I'm going to have to loosen this thing up. But I don't know where is this?

I mean, I'm sure there is some. What is the biblical backing that puts the baptism before acceptance of faith or acceptance by faith?

Well, it goes back to our understanding of what baptism is, because baptism is a sign and seal of the covenant that you're entering into with God, which we believe is something that's just like circumcision in the

Old Testament was given to believers and their children, children being eight day old, young circumcisions.

Yeah, so those things were held in by the parent. What's that? I was more intentioned upon the parent.

Here's where I see the problem in this, in this theology. What does the male born without a father, where is his chance?

Right in the Old Testament, if a kinsman doesn't redeem him, where's his chance?

And how does this in anywhere mirrored in the New Testament at all in a way that I understand in the perfect world through this logic that if your child is baptized, because you're a believing father and a believing mother, and then by God's providence and grace, this child comes at a time later on in his life or her life to be born again.

I mean, in a perfect world, I can see, okay, well, you might can make that argument. But I suppose my question is, you take somebody who was born, you know, fatherless, motherless, he's been, but he had no opportunity to be baptized.

He hears the gospel, and he responds in faith, like almost every

Gentile that would have not been in the same situation as the Jewish people who were first the first believers.

Where's this correlation? When Paul talks about the circumcision of the heart, he's more or less saying that the covenant that we enter in Christ is in his blood, is in Christ's blood, that blood was shed for the new covenant.

And that's where the covenant starts. And our belief in him, our faith in him is how we're saved.

And there's nothing else affixed to it, as far as I can tell. And I'm not trying to be overly harsh.

I'm just trying to really understand, where does, where do you, how do you teach people this, or where's the grace for those who weren't raised perfectly?

Well, the grace is found in Jesus Christ. Well, okay.

I don't necessarily understand where you're coming from. Maybe, maybe, maybe this will help.

Like you said to me, stop me if I'm wrong. Sure. In the

Presbyterian church, if you're, say, say you don't have a, you know, parents who are believers and you come to faith later on, we'll still baptize you as an adult.

Oh, okay. I mean, I didn't know that. Yeah, absolutely. But we, we believe that it's called covenant baptism.

So we'll baptize infants who are, who are, who have at least one believing parent.

We take that from 1 Corinthians 7, where it talks about a child of one believing parent being considered holy or called out.

But yeah, if you're, if you're an adult and you come to faith in Christ and you've not been baptized, go, go into all the world and baptize folks.

So yeah, we're going to, we're going to do that too. Does that answer? That's kind of, that's kind of where I was getting confused is it was like,

I was like, man, you know, I wasn't, I wasn't raised this way and I would,

I knew, actually knew nobody who was raised that way. So I'm thinking about how that fits with the great commission, how that fits with what we see

Paul's teachings are in the New Testament, Peter's teachings. And, and I just was having a hard time figuring out how in the world will you, you justify this biblically as a practice and outside of your, outside of your immediate church family, right?

I mean, how is this missional? I suppose I could ask, is that, and you're answering it by saying that, you know, someone, if someone receives

Christ and they can be baptized as an adult. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. We, we don't deny baptism on a profession of faith.

We, we just also believe that the children of at least one believing parent are subject proper subjects of baptism.

Okay. I do want to ask this difficult question before, because we need, we need to wrap things up in the end.

And I do want to ask the difficult question, but, but Dan, I want to give you, because I'm, I'm not convinced that Presbyterians believe that water says that they believe in baptismal regeneration.

So before I ask the difficult question, can you make that clarification that the

Presbyterians don't believe in a baptismal regeneration? Uh, no, we, we would say along with first Peter, the baptism saves, but what we wouldn't say is that baptism necessarily saves.

Um, so what we would say is, you know, just along with, uh, first Peter, uh, three, uh, 21 says there is also an anti -type it was talking about Noah's ark beforehand.

So there's now an anti -type, um, where to go, which now saves us baptism, uh, not the removal of filth from the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven is at the right hand of God, uh, angels and authorities and powers have been made subject to him.

So we believe that baptism is one of the means of grace by which God draws his people to himself.

Um, but so the, we believe that baptism is, is efficacious or it has real effect on, on those who believe, but what we don't believe is that just because you are baptized, you're automatically saved.

We, and that's why it's important for the Presbyterian in Westminster confession to say that baptism isn't tied to the time or the efficacy of baptism isn't tied to the time at which it's administered.

In other words, just because you are baptized as an infant, doesn't mean that you receive the benefits of baptism as the saving benefits of baptism as an infant, you'll receive them when you come to faith in Christ.

So is it a merited grace there? Not at all. Because, uh, because all of these things are works of God, uh, the baptism by God comes to us the faith.

What I'm saying is baptism is not necessarily a sovereign work of God. That's, that's complimentarium and ism where I'm, I'm there and whoever's baptizing me, then like, that's, that's me doing something that is imparting grace.

That's the pastor doing something that's imparting grace. And you're saying effectual grace, which means salvific grace, not a pervading or general grace, but that you're, you're saying, in other words, that's an impartation of a grace that's based on an action of a man.

And so that's not a sovereign unmerited grace. That would be a merited grace. No, because the, the, the unbeliever who receives baptism doesn't receive that grace.

Right. But I'm just saying though, like, that's what we're talking about though.

The difference between infant baptism and post regeneration baptism.

Like, so I'm just trying to say is like, you said you're using a term that baptism is effectual in saving you.

Just, just like first Peter. And so, so is that what first Peter saying?

I mean, that's, that's what I'm trying to discern because then, because I don't, I don't think,

I don't think you believe what, what, what I'm hearing. So that's the reason I'm pressing in on you just a little bit.

Does that make sense? I mean, I kind of, I think I understand where you're coming from that. Like I said, with John and he said, me, correct me if I'm wrong.

We've, we've heard, and I grew up Baptist. What I heard a lot and they were absolutely right was just because you walked down an aisle, just because you raised your hand, just because you said a prayer, just because the pastor puts you in the water does not mean that you're saved.

And so because of that understanding, which they're absolutely right about, I was,

I was conditioned to think baptism's not what saves me.

I'm not saved by baptism. What I'm saying now is that if first Peter can say that baptism saves us not by a washing away of water.

In other words, it's not because water was put on me or because of something that a pastor did to me, but because it's an appeal of a clean conscience to God, which is something that God has commanded for us to do.

Then God can be effective in using that for salvation because God has commanded it of us.

So, but you don't interpret that scripture without other scripture. So you're, so what

I'm trying to say and what I'm trying to press on you is you're not saying baptism independent of by grace through faith saves you, right?

That by grace through faith is required for salvation. And that by, and so that's why

I have a clear conscience through Christ is by grace through faith, not because I've been baptized. Not because you've been baptized.

Right. Baptism is one of the means by which God has chosen to save his people. And the way that they are, he's chosen to do that is time out, time out, time out.

No, you can't say that. Baptism is not a means by which God has chosen to save his people.

That's through Christ alone. It is because it is the appeal of a clean conscience to God by faith in Jesus Christ.

Well, I don't know. I'm the way I'm hearing you. Then you're saying there's multiple means by which we come to God apart from Christ.

And that's not what you're saying. There's one way that you come to Christ and that's by faith in Jesus Christ. Right.

In his grace alone. Right. Now, that is is needed to us or given to us,

I believe, in several different ways. We receive it in several different avenues through hearing the word preached by reading the scriptures and by baptism in the

Lord's Supper. Okay, that's better. Okay. I don't I don't fully disagree with what you just said.

Okay. But what you were saying, if you go, we'll go back and rewind later. That's the reason I keep pushing on you. Because, again, what

I'm hearing is that I can be baptized. And because of I'm baptized, I'm saved.

No, I wouldn't. No, I wouldn't say that. I know you wouldn't. That's the reason I'm pressing on you a little bit. You hear me? Does that make sense?

And that's that's I'm not trying to make it more difficult. I want everyone who ever watches this to know that we're not in disagreement on the means of salvation.

Okay, it is by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone, like period.

Now, the methodology that God uses to bring us to that place is what you're saying.

You know, there's means of the preaching of the word or through the Lord's Supper or my friend preaching the gospel that I hear the

God whatever. There's different methodology that God brings us to that place in Christ. And baptism could be one of those ways.

Like I have people that have come and said, I desire to be baptized. Why do you want to be baptized?

Because I'm desiring to be right with God. And so then it unpacks a gospel conversation with them.

Does that make sense? I mean, so then in the Baptist format, the most people that I have come to faith typically is when

I preach a sermon on baptism. So it like it awakens that. So I'm so I'm not disagreeing with that last thing that you made.

I just wanted to press you a little further to clarify it because it's it can be misinterpreted when you say that by baptism,

I am saved if you don't give the qualifier that goes along with that. And when you read the whole context of first Peter, he's not just talking about baptism alone.

Go back and read the whole chapter before. It's like there's doctrines of election and grace and faith, all these kind of things that go along with prior to this one statement about baptism.

And that was my point of even this is one of the scriptures I was talking about. It is a strong proof text that a lot of people lift out for even regenerational baptism.

This is like this is like they're to them. They're ace in the hole, even above all the other ones like this one specifically for those that argue for regenerational baptism, they run right here.

See right here, Peter says. And but I tell them, I said, we'll just read the first couple of chapters and see if you still come to the same conclusion as you get to the end of chapter two.

You know, then then you can't come up with regenerational baptism. You know, now you can say this is this is a pathway that God has chosen to to reveal grace to you, to reveal the gospel to you by means of that.

So anyways, I'm just I'm just wanting you to be help you press in on you a little bit there, because I think it'd be easy to be misunderstood on this, if that makes sense.

We get misunderstood quite frequently. All of us do, brother. No worries. That's why

I was that's why I was wanting some clarification and and wanted to have this conversation a little bit deeper, because you're not going to have this conversation, you're not going to hear this conversation, see this conversation, have this conversation in many other places.

But but it was done in love and it was it was pushed so we can get clarification because I'm coming from a different denomination and I don't understand where you where you get your doctrine and and how you formulate it.

So it's good to hear it and get that clarification so that there's not misunderstanding or misrepresentation.

And one of the one of the things that is hard to have this conversation at all, because we come from.

Way different starting points to get to where we are, the the

Presbyterian covenant theology and Baptist covenant theology, while they have the same name of covenant theology, they're like starting points different.

And so you have to go back and understand all of those things and bring the theology all the way through to this point, because really the way we do baptism, the way we understand baptism is an outworking of all of that other theology that that you've had to worked on and thought through.

So I don't know. I think we did pretty good for an hour. We did. We did. And the Presbyterian church, they believe in election.

They believe in grace alone through faith alone. And so there's no way this what we were talking about with baptismal regeneration, that water saves you.

They can't whatever whatever you were hearing. It can't mean that because they believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

So that was a good conversation is good to have. And I don't know if this last question is a yes or no, if it needs deeper explanation, but we talked about those denominations that do hold to baptismal regeneration.

And I would ask your opinion, guys. Do you think it is a gospel issue?

I would say that in some of them more than others can be.

And for example, say, Eastern Orthodoxy, I've had a little bit of dealings with with Eastern Orthodox, not that I'm an expert or anything, but the way it manifests in Eastern Orthodoxy, it does become a way of salvation, like what

Jonathan was saying earlier, that it's not a means. It's not part of the the way they got works as Dan was talking about, but it is absolutely you are saved by being wet.

And especially you are saved by being wet in this church by this guy. And it almost becomes like you have another mediator, like you have to go through this guy to get to Christ.

And so in some of these backgrounds, it does become a gospel issue.

It becomes a top tier issue, I think sometimes. Do I think the Lutherans are outside of Christ?

No. No, I don't. Do I think the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholics have issues in this particular area?

Absolutely. How about the duck commanders? The duck commanders.

So Church of Christ is interesting because you can have rational gospel conversations with some of them and not others.

I got rebuked for three hours by one guy. But I'm suspicious of the

Church of Christ. I think it depends on which Church of Christ the duck commander guys are specifically affiliated with.

How exactly they're fleshing out what it means that the Holy Spirit enters a person at baptism.

Okay. For me personally, it would be a difficult issue to get past to have good fellowship with somebody.

There will be a lot of questions and conversation. Fair enough. If anybody doesn't have any last words,

Dan, do you have anything, Jonathan? All right, good deal. Big John, would you mind sharing the gospel with everybody?

Absolutely, love to. Tyler, would you mind to close us in prayer? Awesome. Well, we've heard from multiple different points of views this evening, and I hope that you've heard the same truth out of it that there's only one means of salvation, and that's in Christ.

Typically, I like to start the bad news and work my way into the good news, but not tonight.

Jesus Christ is fully human, fully man, fully God. Perfect, absolutely perfect in fulfillment of God's law.

He began this covenant. By the way, there is salvation and only in him.

You've heard I don't know how many times tonight that there's salvation in Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone, and we stand on this.

Everyone stands on this if they find themselves a part of the church. If you've watched tonight and somehow or another, you believe that you're going to go to heaven based on your own merit at all, in any point at all, whether you think you're a good person or whether you think you've done good things in this world, and somehow they're going to outweigh whatever you think is bad, and you're not as bad as the other people in your life that you begin to rationalize with right now as I'm saying this thing.

I pray that you that you repent of that and you understand that you're completely wretched and in need of a savior.

And that's Christ. I pray that you believe on him the same way that you put your faith in a parachute if you jumped out of an airplane, that you put him on, that you hold on to him, that you love him.

He's worth it. There's absolutely nothing in this world worth your soul.

And I've never seen one man on his deathbed wish he could have one more day at work, one more moment with his family so much as he would want the assurance of salvation.

You can have that today. You can be born again. You ask the Lord to save you.

He'll come in and he'll live inside of you. He'll give you a new heart with new motives, new intentions.

And I know that this is going to sound like a little bit of a jab at at at the presbyterian folks, but it's not.

I believe that once you've given your life to Christ, you should be baptized in water by a minister.

You should be plugged into a local church and be held accountable. You should read the word of God daily and pray daily and get to know him better.

And he'll and he'll know you better and you'll know him better. And it's worth it. Every minute of it's worth it.

Every minute of it's worth it. He's a good God and we need him.

We need him more than we can understand. That's my prayer. My prayer is to put your faith in Christ today.

Don't let one minute pass that you don't. Praise the Lord. Father God, I thank you for the time that we have had to sit down and talk about baptism with all of its complexity and all of the nuances that we each have wrestled with.

That you have granted us unity through your son.

And that we can disagree and we can work through this together with grace and humility and truth.

Pray that that continues in other facets of our lives. When the camera stops rolling, that we are unified with the church.

In Christ's name, amen. Amen. Amen. Praise the Lord. Thank you, my brothers.

I really appreciate it. And thank you guys for watching or listening. And go check out the truthandlovenetwork .com.

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