Does the Triune God of the Bible Exist?

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Thank you everyone ladies and gentlemen I want to humbly thank you all so much for coming and giving your time and attention to this vitally important subject this evening and given the fact that the triune

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God of Scripture exists and The nature of the uniformity he imposes upon this creation in which you find ourselves and due to the restraints of time that this creates

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I need to get right to it. So let's do this I'll start by immediately noting the obvious and make a concession right now to our dignified opponents by admitting defeat

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If this were a competition over the most glorious beard Dan you win You're welcome.

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Yes Our claim this evening is that the triune God of Scripture exists We will not be defending a general form of theism and it is clear from the stipulated position that we are not arguing from a position of neutrality

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And given the nature of our opponents public claims about their professed atheistic worldview And given the fact that they have chosen to publicly engage this topic as the opposition.

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Neither are they From a biblical and philosophical perspective neutrality is a myth Biblically, no one is neutral towards the triune

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God because outside of a saving relationship with Jesus Christ We are all fallen in a hostile relationship with our

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Creator and thus the problem is not evidence For this God or a lack of light. The problem is sin and suppression or holding down the truth, which is obvious to all of us

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Philosophically speaking we have all we all have pre commitments through which we attempt to make our experience intelligible

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The question is not whether we do this. The question is whether our ultimate commitments are coherent

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Meaningful intelligible and can make sense of what we're all doing here tonight We're defending historic confessional

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Christianity and the biblical worldview and our opponents are claiming to deny that the triune God of Scripture exists

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They are maintaining trust in an atheistic perspective of metaphysics epistemology ethics logic history

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Humans and more we're contending that because God exists this debate is possible

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Given our opponents view of the world and commitments. This debate would be incoherent meaningless irrelevant and wasteful

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Why the descendants of highly evolved societies of bacteria would be exercising energy arguing for anything at all?

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It is ultimately purposeless universe should be perplexing to all of us According to them.

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We're stardust in an environment with no ultimate purpose. No ultimate meaning no ultimate good or evil and we're the random results of evolutionary processes that didn't have us in mind their atheism and a public debate then is a form of philosophical absurdity and intellectual adolescence the claim of the triune

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God of Scripture is that he has revealed himself to us in the created order and That his creation is constantly testifying to his existence presence and power he has revealed himself to each and every one of us to the degree that we're left without a defense or an

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Apologetic for our turning away from him and our denials of his existence he has revealed himself to us in history through special revelation and giving his self a testing word in Conscience and ultimately in the person of Jesus Christ who is

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God incarnate The claim in Scripture is that we all know this God and that there's the fool who says in his heart that there is no

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God, this is not a jab It's a spiritual and intellectual assessment of a person who refuses to face the truth

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Reason properly and accept what is obvious to everyone that the triune God of Scripture exists

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According to Christian confession. God is a spirit Infinite eternal and unchangeable in his being wisdom power holiness justice goodness and truth

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Scripture teaches us that God upholds the world and carries the universe along to its intended destination therefore we have a justification that satisfies the preconditions necessary for the intelligibility of the uniformity in nature all human experience let me say it again all human experience depends upon the uniformity in nature or The inductive principle and that the future will be like the past Whether we're talking about the scientific method the laws of logic the laws of mathematics or walking our dogs

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All human experience is dependent upon the principle of induction. Our opponents will assume this all night

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They're doing it right now They'll not however be able to justify their appeals to it given their atheistic

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Presuppositions and will demonstrate their dependence upon the triune God The triune God of Scripture is completely sovereign over all events in history declares the end from the beginning and causes all things to work together for good for those who are loved who love

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God and of The called according to his purpose Therefore all of history has meaning and purpose

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Human beings were uniquely created by God and therefore have meaning value purpose and dignity we reject the claim that fish became philosophers and That human beings are not ultimately different than snails dogs rocks or dirt as if the logical result of our opponents worldview

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Everything we see and can't see reflects the glory presence power and creative purpose of God The Christian worldview denies what atheists like dr.

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Clark and mr Ellis claim about reality that it is simply matter in motion or that all that exists is the material universe

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The Christian worldview maintains that there are material and immaterial aspects to reality and our existence because the triune

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God exists it can make sense for us to assume a immaterial universal and invariant that's

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Unchanging laws of logic and arithmetic the Christian worldview can make a coherent appeal to universal and immaterial laws

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That reflect the thinking of God We can make sense of immaterial class concepts laws and unity

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With the triune God we can have the one and the many our opponents cannot justify their appeals to laws of logic

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Because the triune God exists and they're made in his image. They will appeal to them However, given their atheism, they shouldn't be human value and dignity because God exists and we have his revelation

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We have a basis to uphold human value and dignity We have a basis to believe in absolute moral arts and responsibilities our opponents this evening do not

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God is good and is a standard of good his laws a reflection of his own character and justice.

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This is important emotional appeals to suffering pain and evil in the world makes sense if the triune

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God of Scripture exists emotional appeals to evil in the world and pain and suffering have absolutely no

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Coherent place in our opponents worldview every time they appeal to human value and dignity.

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They're stealing from our worldview Uniformity in nature because God exists.

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We have a philosophical basis and coherent justification for our appeal to the uniformity in nature

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Nature is not chaos time and chance acting on random matter and mutations God is the sovereign and because he lives we have a basis for our appeals to the inductive principle

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And we have a basis to see miracles as peculiar events Miracles aren't strange in our opponents worldview.

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Let's all commit to remembering that these dudes believe that our ancestors were fish and That non -living matter became matter our living matter.

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It's magic We're arguing for the existence of the triune God from the impossibility of the contrary without him all human experience is unintelligible

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Deny him and make all of your appeals to logic science and mathematics human value ethics

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Meaningless, I want to humbly encourage us all to be on the lookouts for every moment our opponents abandon their professed view of the world

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By complaining about logical inconsistencies moral failings pain and evil and suffering in the world watch for the moments when they assume

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Human value and dignity and demonstrate complete dependence upon the triune God to make sense of their experience here tonight

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For if they really are stardust if the world is as they say that it is And we're in this ultimately purposeless universe with no ultimate values

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Then let us all commit to responding to every argument they make with so what?

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Watch for the image of God to pour out of these gentlemen in every appeal that they make

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To what is a denial of their worldview and can only make sense in ours when it happens

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I encourage you to point it out. There it is and there it is again. Thank you

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I would like to put some feet on what was just said and to give you some examples three specific

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Examples to illustrate what my brother Jeff just presented to us One is a historical example and it is the reality of an empty tomb outside of Jerusalem an empty tomb after a crucifixion

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That took place historically Now people will debate whether that happened or not.

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I just want to show you something. I have here just an image I would like rather put up on the screen, but this is the

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Isaiah scroll from Qumran This contains writings were written this one probably 200 years before Christ But it it originally was was written

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Isaiah prophesied 700 years before Christ About what took place in Jerusalem.

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Now, how do we understand this? How do we understand that? Something could be prophesied if there is not the triune

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God who is in control of the flow of history itself How can we understand that?

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All right, we'll pick up from there the second Issue that I'd like to present to you is a scientific issue right now in every cell in your body

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Something called cellular respiration is taking place and the mechanism by which it takes place.

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I can I can show you what it looks like but It is an incredibly designed mechanism that can basically reconstitute the denisine triphosphate from denisine diphosphate it uses a proton gradient and it spins around it it is an amazing and Designed reality that is right there in front of us that anyone studying biology at this university is quite well aware of it is a scientific reality and Then the third issue

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There are a couple hundred people in this room right now. Why did you come here? You came here expecting to hear reason you came to us

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You came expecting that language was going to be utilized and it was going to make sense That we wouldn't all be speaking different languages

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You came here expecting that the laws of logic would be followed that we would reason With one another that's why you came here this evening.

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You were expecting that kind of regularity in this conversation

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Now those three things in an atheistic worldview are just random realities

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Did you you don't have any explanation for how you can have? Prophecy of an event seven centuries before it takes place that's just that's just weird and there must be an explanation, but you don't really know what it is and You know, there's tremendous biological complexity, but it's just random chance it just happened over time and and You don't have to have any type of intelligence behind that and and you all are here and you're expecting one particular thing

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But you might be disappointed and and there's really no Reason for you to actually believe that we would use the laws of logic or follow the laws of logic in our argument

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But from a Christian worldview those three issues are all related to one another

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The triune God who exists is able to prophesy future events as he did in Scripture because he's sovereign over events in time and It was his intention to bring about that empty tomb and to change the entire history of mankind that is the central point of human history is that empty tomb and the reality of how we are created the beauty and Complexity of our physical life makes perfect sense in the light of the fact that the triune

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God is Intelligent and is in control of all things and all things in him hold together as we are told in Scripture he has the capacity to make that kind of nanotechnology and this evening each one of us in this room is

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Made in the image of God and because we're made in the image of God Then we expect that reason and logic is going to be utilized when our fellow image bearers seek to interact with us and So there is coherence and there is consistency in Looking at any aspect of human life history

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Science whatever it might be. There is a basis for making it all

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Understandable within the Christian worldview whereas within the atheistic worldview, it's simply well

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Some of you might be Trekkies here. Don't admit it publicly. It's a dangerous thing But one of the descriptions

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Jeff has used were simply stardust others have talked about how we are just simply chemicals fizzing

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But one of the descriptions that was used of an alien species as of us is that we are simply ugly bags of mostly water

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Why are ugly bags of mostly water sitting here quietly listening to me speak?

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Do we really expect there to be a transcendent truth? that can actually be appealed to and and Recognized amongst us why if we all are just ugly bags of mostly water.

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There is no reason Whatsoever for us to be here this evening But you and I know that it's right for us to be here

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You and I know that it is a proper thing for us to consider these things and to hear out the other side why

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What worldview makes sense? We are arguing from the impossibility of the contrary as soon as our opponents utilize the laws of logic and reason

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They're making our point for us That is the issue this evening.

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Thank you very much for being here Right, so when Jason sends out the word

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Dr. Oakley's response is so what so in the beginning was the word and the word was not

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Presuppositional ism Presuppositional ism is Pigeon -chest,

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I thought it was an exaggeration, but it turns out it's all too accurate Or as William Craig Lane liked to say it is a logical howler that begs the question

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The question is the question of tonight's debate, which is what?

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Does the triune God of the Bible exist?

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Right not just any God But that very specific

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God of that very specific text, which is also inerrant and infallible

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They complain that just by showing up we've lost the debate. They haven't even bothered to show up They didn't address whether this

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God is necessarily triune They made no attempt to show that the

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Bible is inerrant and infallible And that's the charge of the debate instead.

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They went right back to their howler their pigeon chests of Presuppositionalism So so let's just use a concrete example because this isn't a

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PowerPoint This is a book and if we agree that this is a book and it's got three distinct personages who among you

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Jumps to the conclusion that this is actually really one person Anybody Buehler Buehler anybody this is a book

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Do we know that these three people ever existed or could it be pen names

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Mark Twain is a pen name Dr. Oakley Whoops, my bad.

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I'm so sorry. I am partially blind Is the pen name he uses to hide behind?

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Mark Luke John Do you really think that there were names like that running around in the

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Middle East 2 ,000 years ago? No No People wrote this book

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There's a lot of lines in this book. Does this mean that this book is inerrant? Does it mean that it's infallible?

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What does it take to show that a book is inerrant and infallible? so By strange divine design once again, we meet on a

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Thursday, which as you know is Thursday right named after another

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God Well, but I didn't know until recently and you may not know so it's kind of an interesting factoid is

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Thursday is a renamed day It's renamed. It used to be named

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Jupiter Day But the Germanic Nordic people thought that was pretty silly right

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Jupiter this Roman God so they took it over and named it after a real God the God of Thunder Thor right

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Thor the God of Thunder and so if I read to you an ancient Nordic text that said

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Thor thundered in the heavens. He sent out lightning flashes in abundance and Routed them his enemies you would rightly say, you know what?

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That is the superstitious explanation of a primitive people who didn't understand the forces of nature

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That's what you're all saying about Thor Well, guess what? That is exactly the wording used in Psalms this inerrant book

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This inerrant book it says the Lord thundered in the heavens He sent out lightning flashes in abundance and routed them

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And if you're having trouble telling the difference between one set of nonsense and the other because you can't see much difference

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You are right You are right and that is what they build their salary on is preaching that stuff

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That is what is the money they're taking from you? No different from Thor Actually, there is a little difference

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You may remember Thor had a mighty hammer You remain remember that Jesus was nailed to the cross

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Thor for the win You may also know that Thor was also capable of resurrection

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He resurrected the dead So for all we know maybe it was Thor that raised up Jesus before he went flying into heaven you can't prove that it's impossible

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That's what we're dealing with right so what's interesting about that is not the silliness of Thor what's interesting about that is

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That the very methods that theists use to reject other Supernatural claims are the ones that they so often rely on right in Christianity faith is a virtue

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Right It's a virtue But here's the thing faith is actually a preaching that you do not have a reason

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For anybody to believe what you have to say and you all reject all those other faiths

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There are over a thousand Christian denominations in the United States alone today There are over 4 ,000 religions in the world today

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There are hundreds of thousands of gods throughout history and they reject every single one of them of course

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But one their special God who's actually three no. He's one. He's three. He's three my lord two one three

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What nonsense what nonsense they didn't even try to address that they didn't even try to address that They just made an argument by assertion that Godzilla is real and therefore.

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He's real oops I'm sorry. God is real. God is real and therefore. He's real That is the level we're dealing with so what about another one right another claim

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Revelation tells you so much the voices in my head said something it must be true

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Joseph Smith had a reservation revelation is that true? Anybody here

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Joseph Smith's revelation is that true? No, that's bogus, but my revelations my

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God's revelation. Those are real special pleading Right what about self referential stuff the

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Bible says it's true So it must be true the Bible is the Word of God God exists therefore the Bible is infallible and inerrant

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Well, let's take a look The Book of Mormon says it's another testament of Jesus Christ must be true, right?

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What you all say is no the Koran it says right here

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Right in the opening first page. There's no doubt about this book And you all

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Christians go nope Revelation forget it self -affirmation forget it so let's go to the

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Bible used by Jason Wallace's Church Which he has personally assured me is infallible

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He has personally assured me It is perfect. There are no mistakes in it and we open his

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Bible Which he told me was no different from other Bibles that these guys use and I turn to the

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Bible and it says the most important Claim or the most direct claim for this triune

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God For there are three that best record in heaven the

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Father the Word and the Holy Ghost and these Three are one what more proof could you have that the triune

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God exists except for the fact That James White says that's bull

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He wants you to buy bull Divine coincidence who knows but that actually is not inerrant.

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It's false. It's made -up man stuff But his Bible his

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Bible, that's perfect Every single line every single word.

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There are thirty one thousand one hundred and sixty four verses in that Perfect Bible and he has gone through and he has said every single one of them is perfect and infallible

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No errors inerrant. So let's think about that. Let's say 50 % chance

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The first verse of Genesis has six claims What's the chance of one tale in a row 50 % what's the chance of six tales in a row one in a hundred

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One in a hundred what's the chance of thirty claims in a row about the first ten?

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verses of Genesis one alone thirty tales in a row About one in a billion and he's going to claim that every single line in there is inerrant

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Because if one line is not inerrant, the book is not inerrant If you went to just the first four books of Genesis The number of people that would have to flip coins in order to come up Would be more than the number of atoms in the universe if every line in here were ninety nine point nine nine percent

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Correct the odds that all of them would be correct are less than one in ten thousand

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So that's his job to prove to you that every single one of these lines is more than ninety nine point nine nine percent

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So let's take a look. Shall we in the beginning? God created the heaven and the earth

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Oops the earth didn't come till almost ten billion years later You got proof otherwise bro, you got empirical evidence that the earth was created 14 billion years ago

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When the Sun was created or the star the universe was created you got empirical proof. No, he does not

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He has got argument by assertion. That's what he's got That's all he's got

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Okay That's nonsense, right? Let's think about that.

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Right? What how do you how do you begin to tell truth? Well, Lucy Harris had a good way. It's not perfect. I'll acknowledge that empirical science is not perfect There's humans that they claim are not inerrant so humans can make errors, right?

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So Lucy Harris actually believed in Joseph Smith's golden plates and she said show me and he couldn't show her

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What a surprise So then right the real truth of of what how he translated about was not with the golden plates

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It was a magic rock in a hat. He put his head in the hat and read off the words of God one by one

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That's how Joseph Smith did it And so Lucy Harris by some accounts took the first hundred pages of his translation and said do it again

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Show me What a surprise he couldn't Now, of course he said what

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Baptist preachers always say it's not God's will that's what I can say about Godzilla there in the corner

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You all can see him. He's omnipotent. You have no right to question his existence That's the argument.

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These guys use you have no right to even question his existence and you would see him except you are a sinner

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You are a sinner. You could see him otherwise and you all recognize that's nonsense

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But y 'all pay him to preach that stuff That's the reality.

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So let's open this book in the first day, right? There's no Sun yet. Y 'all know you do know right?

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You do know what causes day and night, right? It's the rotation of the earth with respect to the Sun, but your

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God didn't know that It's the day in the first night day two day three fruit trees are growing on earth

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Fruit trees are growing on earth. There's no Sun and stars yet No Sun and stars

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Where do the atoms even come from for these fruit trees on earth when I was in first grade?

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I knew that flowering pants didn't come before the dinosaurs. That was a bit of a dinosaur fanatic

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Right, your God didn't know that your God didn't know anything about the bacteria look in the Bible There's not one line in the

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Bible that couldn't have been seen by the ignorant goat herders of century ago without divine intervention

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And it has occurred to you that the reason that there is no line in the Bible that couldn't have been said

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Without it's being known by the ignorant goat herders of years ago. It's because you're right

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They knew nothing that the ignorant goat herders didn't know and then you move on and on you move to Genesis 2

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And guess what in Genesis 2 it has a completely different order from Genesis 1

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There's no plants and then Adam exists and this is one of my favorite parts of the Bible God this omniscient being looks around and he

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Goes, oh Adam must be lonely. I know what I'll do I'll make a you just for you a base beats to the field.

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Hey Adam. What do you think of this? She's white and delights them No way

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Yahweh wrong denomination. I'm a Baptist not a Mormon. How about that cow? Look at that rack.

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She's really horny No, I'm not in the mood Dad jokes right proof that God doesn't exist

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Right. So so these are the absurdities that they are going to prove with 99 .99

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% certainty for every single line of the Bible because otherwise like the King James Bible that they say is not inerrant and Jason Wallace says is who is

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Right, they can't both be right They have trashed every other religious book as wrong and they've made no attempt whatsoever

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To match their ridiculous claims onto an empirical reality except once They'll always do it when it comes to their lives being on the line

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They will dump their religious claims to save their unholy butts

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Time and time again, and I am going to give them the opportunity

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To show that they're wrong and so that will be my rejoinder to so what it will be

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Show me dude. Don't just slap the lips show me Clarify immediately in regards to the visual aids my understanding and emails that was referring to PowerPoint or keynote presentations

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So for the very few of you in the first three rows that you can see what I was looking at Take a point off from us.

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We'll we'll call that we'll call that even we have nothing to rebut The diatribe you just heard was nothing but pure anger and hatred toward God.

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There was not a Scintilla of rationality in it and I feel very sorry

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Because we have an opportunity of actually engaging in Meaningful intellectual discussion on important issues and that's not what we got.

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We got anger And we got a tremendous amount of ignorance about this subject a tremendous amount of ignorance about this subject

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Let me just give you one example since it was brought up to try to create a distinction between Myself and Jason was the subject of what's called the

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Kami Ohanian I can guarantee you that the good doctor has never looked at a Greek manuscript cannot read

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Greek has never studied the issue I spent the last program

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I did on the subject of the Kami Ohanian giving a rather an in -depth historical Discussion of first John 5 7 these issues

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But what's the problem the problem is when you talk about the Bible the New Testament was written in Greek We're not talking about English translations that you can throw into a trash can someplace

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We're talking about the Bible in the original languages, which was written long before there was such thing as an

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English Language and the assertion of inerrancy has to do with the original languages of Scripture not with textual variants or historical issues in regards to the transmission of the text

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Now I'm very glad to discover. I'm glad you all came here this evening and we now recognize that Thor does not exist

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That is a great advance. I sort of thought his storyline the movies was going right down anyways

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So it's I mean that last one. I mean really come on fat Thor that just did not work at all.

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So So I'm glad we don't know about Thor But here's the problem if there was a scintilla of seriousness and the interaction from the other side

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There would be a recognition of the fact that the God we are presenting is so different than the anthropomorphic

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God of Thor that that never would have been brought up not once But it wasn't even recognized

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There is no interaction from the other side with anything that we have said in regards to the coherence of Worldviews we had a lot of bluster

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We had someone yelling at us rather than looking at you. We're here for it.

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He and I we're here for you Okay, that's that's why we're here. We're not here to express our anger and hatred about people

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We're here because this is a vitally important issue. Let me tell you something I took the time to listen to a multiple times to a lengthy presentation

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That dr. Clark gave at an atheist meeting When he was talking about God he used profanity he was speaking as quickly as he was this evening and then he started talking about his own work and a different person showed up a

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Completely different person that I respect the work. He's doing is fantastic But he was completely different when talking about that.

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Why well, I think we just saw it, but let me point something out as I listened to dr.

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Clark talking about the complexity of The work that he does and how much intelligent design has gone into creating even the things that he holds patents for I Could not help us sit back and go

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Do you not see? Do you not see the life around you?

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do you not see the reality of the the blood clotting mechanism and the eye and ATP synthase that I was just talking to you about and all these things do you not see that that far it goes way beyond any of the

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Design and the studying that you have done to create your work How can you not see this if it takes intelligent design on your part to create what you're creating?

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It took intelligent design to make the original that got lost in an accident We live in God's world and What you just heard didn't have a whole lot of I was expecting some borrowing from our worldview

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There wasn't almost anything because it was just simply angry bluster But generally when you get arguments from atheism

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They are going to take from our worldview Regularity induction the laws of logic and try to turn them against the source that they are then borrowing those elements from Now I'm hoping that maybe after this point we can actually get into some serious interaction as To how the other side has a meaningful epistemology

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Knows what it knows can assert that something is true Without just simply yelling about it

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But let's stop with a misrepresentation Let's stop with the saying well faith is just simply believing without having a reason for believing

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Any Christian in the room knows that anybody who says that knows they don't understand what the Christian doctrine of faith is

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Because that's not what Christian faith is at all Let's have a meaningful discussion from this point on let's holster the anger and let's focus upon What really has been said for the benefit of all of you who've come here this evening?

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All right, that was exciting Boy, this is fun. Dr. Clark All right.

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So listen the debate tonight is not about whether our opponents like the Christian God and that's about all we got just now

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Dr. Clark Clark does not like the Christian God It's also not about whether we like atheism our opponents disdain for their creator and my personal disdain for the folly of atheism

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It's not a tough -minded and philosophically strong foundation for either position. We're arguing here tonight about ultimate

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World views you see he was concerned We didn't start off with a defense of the triune

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God, but if you were all listening you heard me talk about it I give a description of the triune

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God. I anchored it in historic Christian confession I even quoted because I love you the

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Westminster confession of faith That's right. That's right.

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We did talk about the triune God. How many of you guys heard me call Jesus God incarnate?

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Now if dr. Clark knew a little bit a little bit about historic Christian confession, he would probably understand that but he's not in the debate

36:17

Yet this evening. He's just angry and his anger is not a basis for a philosophically

36:24

Rigorous defense of his position. Dr. Clark wants empirical evidence. I want to see it.

36:29

I want to know it's true I want to feel it touch it taste it all the rest. He's matter in motion

36:34

He's a bag of fizzing atoms in a universe that doesn't care about him He has no basis for the laws of logic consistency.

36:41

Dr. Clark You're gonna have to justify an appeal to immaterial that is not made of matter unchanging

36:50

Universal laws that are true tonight in Salt Lake City, Utah and in Iceland. How do you do that in atheism?

36:57

Is it by convention? We just merely stipulate that laws of logic today should be like this and you're all supposed to hold to them

37:04

Which kinds of laws of logic do we hold to dr. Clark's laws of logic? Are they gonna be the same a hundred years from now now are these laws justified within a materialist view of the world?

37:14

I say absolutely not He isn't in the debate yet tonight. He proved nothing

37:21

Nothing, he talked about goat herders Joseph Smith chocolate rocks and all the rest.

37:27

Dr. Clark You should have known before you came tonight that we're not Mormons What Is necessary for this debate this evening what listen closely very important and I respect you enough to speak to you with humility at this point

37:44

Induction that nature is uniform. You see this isn't a problem. Dr. Clark doesn't like this. He doesn't like Christians doing this to him

37:51

This isn't a problem presented dr. Dr. Clark by presuppositional apologists I want to know what his answer is to the

37:58

Scottish skeptic David Hume or to the famous atheist Bertrand Russell in his book

38:03

Problems of philosophy chapter 6 he presents this problem to atheists like dr.

38:09

Clark and he says I want a basis Don't tell me that nature is uniform because it always has been

38:14

I want to know how we know the future will be uniform because Everything depends upon it and don't tell me what it was always has been that position is a position of sheer

38:26

Ignorance blind faith and The Christian position rejects that kind of faith commitment.

38:34

Dr. Clark has no coherent appeal to the laws of logic and He needs to start getting into this discussion tonight.

38:42

What is his justification for the laws of logic? How do you justify them? Dr. Clark was very very concerned that human beings are being abused by religion

38:53

He's very very concerned and I by the way, I agree with dr. White Incredible what this man is doing in terms of taking care of other image bearers of God making sure they have what they

39:03

Can can have in a broken world to touch things grab things. It is incredible, but that displays the image of God in him

39:11

He knows that that is an image bearer of God. It's not a snail rock horse or dog or dirt

39:17

It's worthy of our value Dignity and respect and that's we plan to give them this evening

39:24

Thanks, Jason. Thank you all very much for coming out It's good to see you all here. This is a big turnout. I wasn't expecting quite this many people

39:31

So thank you all very much for coming out on a school night. We won't try to keep you too late This has been a lot of fun so far

39:40

I gotta say Wasn't I wasn't expecting quite so many fireworks

39:48

But it's fun. It should be good. This is my first formal debate Had I known that it was going to be a debate with presuppositional lists,

39:57

I probably would have turned it down Because it's almost like we're speaking two different languages.

40:04

I'm dr. White clearly speaks more than one. So maybe that's why It just it kills me when

40:12

I hear them say things like Intelligent design is what gave us the arms that dr.

40:19

Clark is now working on to Heal the amputees that apparently

40:25

God can't or won't in the history of the world Does anybody know of any even one a single amputee who has ever?

40:34

Been healed by God by the power of God by the power of prayer Name me one show me one example of this in the history of mankind apparently

40:45

God is too lazy stupid or Unwilling to help those whose arms legs eyes

40:54

Fingers toes have been removed through one Unlucky circumstance or another he has to rely on people like like dr.

41:01

Clark Doing the great work that he's doing Jeff said it's obvious to everyone that his

41:09

God exists For the record how many atheists are in the audience not if you are an atheist you don't have to raise your hand

41:17

I know that in some spots. That's a little dangerous for people So clearly we don't all

41:24

Know that his God exists Fish don't become philosophers.

41:30

That's true Humans do it's not my fault that Jeff doesn't seem to understand how evolution works, but it is a fact nonetheless

41:39

He thinks it's magic and in some sense. I agree with him It's amazing, but his he then implying that his

41:47

God doesn't use magic What would he call it? I wonder special secret powers the primary argument that James and Jeff are using to prop up a belief in their

41:59

God is what is referred to as the transcendental argument for God This argument attempts to prove the existence of their

42:06

God by arguing the logic morals science love everything

42:13

Ultimately presuppose a supreme being and That their God must therefore be the source of that being or I'm sorry the source of said logic morals science love and everything else

42:27

James use a bit of science in his opening remarks It's curious to me that he borrows from my worldview in order to do so that science is the best method we have for explaining and Exploring the world in which we find ourselves

42:44

The problem is his religion forces him to cast aside Scientific reasoning and logic whenever it doesn't fit the narrative that the

42:53

Bible he believes is inerrant tells him Jeff seems to like using a line that we're all just stardust.

43:06

I don't think I'm just stardust Do any of you think you're just stardust?

43:12

Something to be swept up off the floor discarded Something that you can easily just get rid of something that doesn't think doesn't love doesn't doesn't

43:24

Use rational thought to come to conclusions He may think we're stardust.

43:30

I think we're a lot more than that we don't need an invisible sky fairy to tell us to be good to each other and The fact that he phrases of the question the way that he does that if we're all just stardust or protoplasm bumping into each other

43:52

Leaves me to wonder How it is that he believes anything works at all

43:58

But does that offer any explanatory knowledge? In other words, does it provide any reason to believe their claims?

44:05

They're simply asserting that their God exists and not offering any evidence for it

44:11

As dr. Clark pointed out it would be like saying oh no, it's actually Godzilla the invisible and corporeal

44:19

Being in the corner who created everything and rules our universe Whoo, it's a pretty sunset tonight.

44:31

God must have made that Are you trying to tell me the trees and birds and puppies and kittens all just happened through some random series of events

44:40

Yeah, pretty much the time to believe that a claim is absolutely true is only after it has been demonstrated to be true not before James and Jeff have contended that logic itself is impossible without their

44:54

God and That without their God and the laws of logic their

44:59

God creates the world would be an absurd place The logic itself cannot be used as a judge as a justification for belief in their

45:08

God so they are compelled To employ the slimy tactic of putting themselves above everybody else and claiming that they and people like them have the truth

45:19

They argue that their God has revealed himself to them through scripture and some other hocus -pocus Notion of their

45:24

God's existence being written on our hearts and minds But if as I'm sure they would agree

45:29

Humans are fallible then they must also surely acknowledge that any message Received by their

45:35

God would have to be processed by the fallible minds of the fallible people To whom their

45:40

God has revealed itself. I Have yet to see where modal logic is described in the

45:46

Bible, but apparently James and Jeff thinks this represents the mind of their God they smuggle in a lot of non -christian reasoning and Conflate their own understanding of things with the mind of their

45:57

God. That's not only arrogant But if their God exists, it's also blasphemous

46:03

Even if naturalism or materialism cannot provide a firm foundation for knowledge and I don't know that it does.

46:11

I'll freely make that I'll freely make that concession It does not follow that belief in a

46:17

God can Simply asserting without evidence That it that it can is a lapse in moral judgment itself and exposes their arguments as the hollow

46:28

My God is better than your God ignorant and childish stance that it is James and Jeff believe that their

46:37

God is perfection itself That is they do not believe that their God is a thing that can be described as perfect But that their

46:44

God is perfection manifest But if a being can be described not as simply something which is perfect But that the being in and of itself is perfect.

46:57

Why would such a being create anything at all? What a perfect being have any wants what a perfect being be jealous

47:07

What a perfect being be angered by anything Of course not

47:16

But all of those are attributes of James and Jeff's God as described in the Bible If miracles happen if they exist and I'm reasonably sure that James and Jeff would both agree that they do or would say that they do

47:31

The laws of logic are thrown out the window They argue that inductive reasoning cannot happen without their

47:38

God because the world then becomes an absurd place But they also hold what seems to be contradiction what seems to be a contradictory notion

47:47

That their God can suspend the laws of logic wherever and whenever it chooses to do so I Don't know about you, but I think it's pretty easy to see that such a contradictory view is itself

48:00

Absurd How would we account for God's intervention when conducting clinical trials of a new drug?

48:07

What we have to limit studies only to beings for whom James and Jeff's God hasn't revealed himself What if we were testing the efficacy of a new cancer treatment?

48:16

What we have to wonder if among the test subjects who respond to treatments that they are actually responding to the treatment

48:22

What we have to wonder if the treatment itself wasn't doing anything at all But that the God but that God intervened and performed some kind of miracle to heal them

48:32

How would we account for that? Do we have to drop all Calvinists out of scientific studies?

48:41

Does their God reveal himself to animals? Would we only be allowed to test for would we only be allowed to know for certain that animals are the only viable test subjects?

48:52

Upon which we can rationally conduct any scientific testing because God wouldn't be mucking up the results

48:59

I Don't think James and Jeff take their own conclusions about presuppositional ism Seriously as I heard from the crew of one of my all -time favorite podcasts reasonable doubts

49:10

Thanks for the reminder Lars Quote if this is how a presuppositional is thinks

49:16

Shouldn't Calvin College be full of departments that are busily working on revising modern probability theory to account for all of this

49:27

Isn't there a potential contradiction then again with the laws of logic because something like Bayes theorem can be proved, right?

49:34

It's based in logic and yet it tells us how we should go about thinking about probability But Bayes theorem couldn't probably couldn't possibly apply in a universe where God is constantly intervening its measurements would be useless

49:47

Thank you Dr. Clark Dan. Thank you guys What is your response to Bertrand Russell and problems of philosophy chapter 6

49:56

He says it's been argued that we have reason to know that the future will resemble the past Because what was the few what the future has constantly become the past and has always been found to resemble the past so that we really

50:06

Have experience of the future namely of times which were formerly future which we may call past futures

50:13

But such an argument really begs the very question at issue We have experience of past futures But not a future futures and the question is will future futures resemble past futures

50:23

This question is not to be answered by an argument which starts from past futures alone We have therefore still to seek for some principle which shall enable us to know that the future will follow the same laws as the

50:34

Past what is your response to Bertrand Russell atheist in problems of philosophy? My first response is to you

50:41

And I remind the audience that the topic of this debate was not Presuppositionalism the topic of this debate was not for us to prove logic exists

50:52

The topic is does the triune God of? Inerrant Bible exists and you'll notice the shell game that he's playing even though I pointed out to this as the very first point he's still going back to my

51:06

God is responsible for everything and therefore if you Even show up at this debate

51:14

I won Please write that as Dan has pointed out as I have pointed out as you all laughed at Thor you're not

51:21

Mormons I get that that's the point is you reject all of that stuff, and there's all these gods out here

51:27

So the question is not does inductive logic work the question is does the triune

51:32

God? Exists of the Bible, okay, so that said that said

51:38

I just want to remind everybody what the debate actually is supposed to be and so far they've

51:44

Continually avoided so the answer is inductive logic does not is imperfect

51:50

And it does not provide one hundred answer to Bertrand Russell's problem of induction

51:55

But my answer is inductive logic is not imperfect. It does not predict logic sir

52:01

I said the problem of induction the uniformity in nature not merely inductive logic God read it provides

52:07

No explanation whatsoever That's not already in its assumption and one could just as well say

52:13

Godzilla did it and if you want to explain why Godzilla didn't do it Then go right ahead, but that answer is self referential and empty dr.

52:24

Clark our question is about your methodology your criticisms and your worldview and the consistency

52:31

They understand your questions want to be about a change in the debate topic. It's not has nothing to change

52:37

It very much is okay, so for example Godzilla answer. I'll give an answer and you can show me that it's about it

52:45

Godzilla is all -powerful You're not allowed to question his existence because he is your creator this is their argument and therefore

52:55

The fact that logic exists that inductive logic exists is proof that Godzilla exists so dr.

53:02

Clark you've now abandoned atheism, and you're a Godzilla ite I am saying that those are equally you provide now a justification with Godzilla ism for a principle of induction

53:12

I haven't solved the problem providing equivalence between what your audience laughs

53:18

Next question Respect to God sir and somehow wants to pay you next question preaching.

53:25

Did you want to know my answer? I would Dan Okay, sure. Thanks. I would just say that I have no idea

53:30

I don't know Bertrand Rass Bertrand Russell himself didn't know so he's a hell of a lot smarter than I am Dan You live by faith.

53:36

No, I don't Would you say that you have confidence in the principle of induction sure so you are with faith

53:43

No, I am not with faith confide with faith Well, it depends.

53:50

I mean that's a loaded term, right? I would give me your definition of faith Well, you have trust but there are different types of trust

53:56

There's trust with evidence with justification and then there's blind Ignorant trust you have no basis to believe that the laws of logic are uniform You have no basis to believe that the next five seconds

54:09

You won't float away to the ceiling because you just depend on faith or that God maybe does that?

54:14

I mean if he breaks these laws of logic all the time through miracles, you're right. I have no basis You're confusing your confusing categories when you talk about breaks laws of logic with miracles

54:25

Well, we're really talking about with miracles of the uniformity in nature and now you're borrowing again from our worldview

54:30

So I ask again you depend on the uniformity in nature for miracles to be odd events

54:35

What we say is God is sovereign and he imposes uniformity upon creation Therefore miracles are strange with the triune

54:42

God of Scripture We're supposed to see dead men rising and go that's weird in your worldview

54:49

Weird things happen all the time fish become philosophers. There's all kind of they don't humans become philosophers

54:54

Well, you know, I mean, I can't I can't explain to you why you can't seem to grasp that or why you don't understand evolution

55:01

But that's not my day. I believe fish became philosophers through a long result of random.

55:06

No fish do not become philosophers So I'll say it again fish do not become philosophers

55:11

Humans, you are you are but you believe you were descended from fish somewhere in the chain. I Don't know that I came from fish do what you're in a long causal chain of evolution

55:22

Yes, early ancestors were not land roving people were they fish Were my ancestors fish yes.

55:30

Yes. So we're yours. So you do believe your ancestors were fish. Yes So we finally we have that down now. Good. Thank you,

55:36

Dan. You're very welcome Dan Dan, do you do you I have I have a lot of I have a lot of people who actually study evolution

55:41

Really really carefully that I'd be happy to point you to some of their work happy to read a minute to you now

55:47

Dan, do you eat fish? Yes, I do Dan if you have ancestors who are fish and you eat fish today.

55:55

Let me ask you a question What's the distinction between you and other random results of evolutionary processes?

56:02

Why do you uphold human value and dignity above say snails horses docks and dogs and rocks?

56:07

Well, I have yet to see a horse that could reason as well as I can so if it reasons better It is more valuable and has more dignity

56:15

Not necessarily. No, but I think it holds. I think it holds more weight, right? Like I think you would also say that a rock isn't as important as a human being or anything else

56:26

It's a rock, yeah Oh a rock is I'm sorry Say that a rock is we would say the rock is not an image is not the image of God human beings are the image

56:34

Of God so on what basis do well, let me ask it this way you say if it reasons better It has more value.

56:40

What if a segment of humanity? Grows large and draws a smaller circle around themselves and say we reason better than your group

56:49

Therefore will exterminate you are they right for doing that? I think we would need to be able to have a way to test those claims and They would have to be able to demonstrate that their claims are more correct

57:00

That's how we do that It is possible for a segment of humanity to draw a smaller circle around their group and exterminate other groups

57:08

Not only is it possible we see it happen way too often right? Is it wrong? Yeah, I believe it is

57:13

Is it absolutely morally wrong? Tell me what you mean by absolutely

57:19

Exists outside of my own preferences and my own likes and dislikes. Is this something that's true whether I like it or not?

57:25

Well, as I've said, I believe that the lot the laws of logic exist. We're talking about ethics. Okay, not laws of logic

57:32

Okay, are you saying that? Is there an absolute ethical standard? in Let me ask some

57:38

You specifically said we don't need an invisible sky fairy to tell us we are to be good to each other so given that Stalin and Mao were both atheists and Were responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths

57:58

Why didn't they need a sky fairy to tell them what to do in light of what you're saying?

58:04

Is there an Absolute moral standard that says Auschwitz was wrong

58:10

Right now is wrong. I do not know if there's an absolute moral standard that says Auschwitz was wrong.

58:16

So how can you make the claim but you've not offered us any evidence for that claim You've simply asserted that your

58:22

God exists if there was an empty What is the evidence of the existence you can ask you can ask us those questions when it's your turn sure

58:28

But when you say when you say what you said right now Do you not see a difference between our saying that there is an empty tomb

58:39

That was prophesied beforehand and the one who came out of that tomb Gave us his law and your argument for God's illism

58:49

That's not my argument. Okay, so there's a division Or tell me what my position is you're welcome to ask me what it is, okay, that'd be great

59:00

So I'm asking okay, so another question since off off the issue of the uniformity of nature and the principle of induction

59:09

What are the laws of logic and how are they justified? There's the law

59:15

Let me look them up here just so that I don't Mess it I have to go through the different distinctions and laws and categories

59:22

But what are they in an atheistic perspective? We argued in the opening statement that the laws of logic reflect the thinking of God God is unchanging

59:31

God cannot lie Therefore God cannot engage in logical contradiction We have a principian a reference point a standard outside of ourselves for universal abstract

59:40

Unchanging laws of thought that God imposes upon creation and expects us to think about what is your justification

59:47

Dan? I'm saying that you don't have justification for that or at least you haven't demonstrated it You've made an assertion, but you've not demonstrated it you've not provided any evidence for that actually you can ask that question

59:58

But what is your I'm not asking a question. I'm making a statement, right? You're you're asserting that this is the case you have yet to offer any evidence for that the question being asked of you in Cross -examination right now is what are the laws of logic from an atheistic perspective and how are they justified in your worldview?

01:00:13

They're justified under my worldview because they comport with the reality in which I find myself are they material in nature?

01:00:18

No, I don't believe so so laws of logic are not material in nature, so no numbers are not either so so very good

01:00:25

But they exist okay, so they so that you do believe there are immaterial aspects to reality there are abstract

01:00:30

Abstract concepts with which we can we can think about how the world works through using those abstract concepts conventional in nature

01:00:41

Tell me what you mean by conventional we determine and stipulate as humans what these laws of logic are are they conventional?

01:00:47

We determine what they are I? Don't understand your question still laws of logic.

01:00:53

Do they exist do they exist are they real I? Just told you I think they're abstract concept okay are these abstract concepts things that humans by convention have merely

01:01:03

Stipulated or are they things that are they things that exist as true without human beings there you go

01:01:09

I believe that they would be yeah, I believe that they would be here whether human beings were here or not

01:01:14

But I mean if they were here, and no human was around to observe them Then it's so I mean it's a fun thing to think about I appreciate that very much, so what would be your justification for?

01:01:27

appealing to immaterial abstract universals given your materialism

01:01:33

Can you ask me that again sure as an atheist? I assume you're a materialist. Yes, okay?

01:01:38

So you believe all that it all that exists is matter That's all that I've been able to have any demonstration for Are you holding to immaterial laws because you just said you believe the laws of logic are immaterial, so yeah

01:01:52

I don't know from I believe numbers are immaterial also But I also believe that they are useful and exist and we agree and then where they come from yeah

01:01:58

So where they come from from human thought so they are merely conventional What do you mean by merely conventional beings?

01:02:07

Convene and stipulate what a law of logic or a law of arithmetic is no I'm I just told you that I believe the laws of logic would be around whether humans

01:02:17

Created them or or thought of them or were around to recognize that I appreciate that if I could ask dr.

01:02:24

Clark a quick question You there was criticism made of You said they didn't even try to address the

01:02:36

Trinity Dr.. Clark, did you read my book on the Trinity? I did not read your book

01:02:43

Do you how much do you sound like for? Well, you know if someone had a free copy someone someone had a had a copy out there

01:02:50

We'll be happy to get you a free copy. That's that's not you know how many books I had to like I how many versions of the

01:02:56

Bible I had to plow through like I thought that was the sacrifice enough So whatever so when we say the triune

01:03:04

God of Scripture is Important in this debate you stood somewhere in the walking around up here you stood there and talked about well

01:03:15

It's three. It's one is three. It's one Do you not understand even what we're saying when we say the triune

01:03:20

God of Scripture? I actually would appreciate clarification of What what that means as you may know

01:03:26

Thomas Jefferson thought not that I'm quoting authority, but it's a good point I'm giving credit was that actually it's hard to make sense of it

01:03:34

And I tried actually to have this discussion as you know because you probably know because Jason actually forwarded my emails to you

01:03:42

Trying to get a handle of what the triune God, and I will freely admit I started off thinking

01:03:48

That that I would be able to get a better handle on it than I did and I failed Could I could

01:03:54

I ask if most of your interaction? With religious people has been here in Utah of course not no so you're from someplace else

01:04:03

I am okay, so you recognize that for example Mormonism is not Trinitarian Well actually if you want to have a reasonable discussion on this

01:04:14

What I actually found going into the debate which was that there were several topics proposed by the way and Several of them were rejected and and the ones they're focusing on are the ones that were rejected so just as a reminder and and and one of the issues was what is the nature of this triune

01:04:29

God and Mormonism versus Classical or conventional Trinitarianism like in Catholicism and so forth and I thought

01:04:37

I actually Understood the Mormon position better than I or the distinction better than I do

01:04:43

Okay, because I always thought well okay great because in Mormonism actually it's Jesus who?

01:04:49

Formed the creation, and it's Jesus who demanded that if you have

01:04:56

Relationships with animals which was God's plan that you should be killed and all the rest that it was

01:05:01

Jesus of the Old Testament So that is a distinction, but actually when I tried to grapple with it and and understand what three personages meant and I looked at the material that that Jason was kind enough to send to me and read up on the

01:05:18

Trinitarian view the honest truth is I can't wrap my head around What it means to have three distinct persons?

01:05:24

Who's actually just one person I? I'm I'd be loved to have someone clarify.

01:05:30

It's probably too long for this debate, but I don't get it man Well, you know

01:05:35

God can change my mind Right he changed the Pharaoh's mind he hardened their hearts

01:05:41

So that the Pharaoh would not let his people go his God's people go so that God could slaughter the firstborns

01:05:49

And show what a wonderful God he is rather than just letting his people go so is that a

01:05:54

Christian changing his mind What was that a question? No, I'm I'd be happy to address it if you find that objectionable question.

01:06:01

It's a clue okay Well, I was going to get to that since God can Read minds and since God can plant thoughts in my mind

01:06:08

I have a Trinity of numbers here What are they?

01:06:15

Is that supposed to be a question? Yes? That is not Johnny Carson. That is a question You're all -powerful.

01:06:21

God can do this he changed the Pharaoh's heart Jason is spending time praying for my mind to change

01:06:27

So God he clearly believes you Think God can change my mind. Yes, you change your heart.

01:06:33

You'd have to change your heart Well, you know we think actually with our minds If you don't know if you don't know if you take an artificial heart and put it in a person they say no that good

01:06:44

Good, and you know where the Sun goes at night, right? Yeah, I here's can I can I can I respond to anything you're saying are you just gonna?

01:06:53

That's absurd, okay, that's an absurd question, but I do I would like to respond are absurd of course

01:06:59

I didn't say that sir could I could I answer the question no? I asked you a question, and I here's the question we've got miracles ready to happen

01:07:08

Right ready to happen, but but they didn't happen Why is it that miracles never occur except when there are things that would happen anyway?

01:07:16

Let's go to one of God's tests That that is a claim, and I asked a question, okay?

01:07:24

Let me address miracles first My question my questions are show me.

01:07:30

Okay. It looks like you want another 15 minutes to talk You're not asking questions, so here's my question the ball test you're familiar with it, right?

01:07:39

You're an expert on the Bible the tell us the story of Baal Which and and and there are many balls sir and a hab there are many balls sir which which one do you have so the story?

01:07:50

Of a hab and Elijah and and their test of a true God You're familiar with that story quite okay, and so So The ball test was that that if you are a believer

01:08:07

That a fake God would not set something on fire and a real God would so you've read the text

01:08:12

Oh, yeah, I have read the text and so can I answer now that can I answer now? Can you do that will you allow an answer sir will you sit down and allow an answer my question is this can you do?

01:08:23

That's or no. No he cannot do that Okay, I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try to give an answer miracle number two doesn't happen, okay?

01:08:32

Miracle number three show me show me show me this is absurd of course it's up sir Lighting stuff on how many of you would like to hear the answer to the question sit down Sit down.

01:08:46

I need to stand up because I need to see you. I need to hear Okay, here's my answer if you need to see me to hear the answer let me give you the answer

01:08:56

Yes, I was just in Israel at the point where this happened if you've read the text yes These were covenant people and they were going after another

01:09:04

God a God who had already said that they would be Punished if they did this thing and they are the ones who've been yes

01:09:12

It was if you can ignore the context of the question is can you do that can

01:09:17

I do what call fire down out of heaven? Yeah, not in this context. No sir. Okay. Can you do any may ask you another question simple?

01:09:24

Did you hear my answer yeah? There are times when God uses miracles and there are times when

01:09:30

God does not To specifically establish his word in Scripture that time has passed

01:09:37

Now we have the church sir, and we have the fact that God changes hearts as he has many people in this room

01:09:43

Oh, isn't that sweet? Isn't that sweet so you know as Mr..

01:09:49

Wallace pointed out to me. There's a funny thing and I wonder if you can figure it out Yes, it is in just a second

01:09:58

Okay, but I'm going to give you the context right just like you spent all this time saying no

01:10:04

In a minute right and the context was this George Bernard Shaw And I credit Wallace for pointing this out to me said you know the miracles that happen at Lord's Like people get out of wheelchairs, and they drop crutches but they never

01:10:18

Drop an artificial leg because God doesn't heal amputees as was pointed out They also don't grow hair so the question is can you grow hair on on Dr..

01:10:29

White right now? No of course not because the only miracles can you do it?

01:10:35

Can you do it? What's that? Can you do it? Can I do what? So dr.

01:10:43

White claims that biblical miracles are still happening this is devolving if Allow me to answer the question

01:10:50

It's a simple question can you grow hair on his head right now just like Jesus at once?

01:10:56

Performed his miracles because dr. White claims that miracles are still happening scripture. No actually dr.

01:11:02

Claim dr. White has not claimed it in that way at all you are misrepresenting him It's not going to help us if you put words in our mouths what our

01:11:09

Position is is that the triune God of scripture exists and that he imposes the uniformity upon creation

01:11:16

He upholds it by the word of his power and carries it along. I'm asking about miracles I am

01:11:21

I am right now. He carries it along to its intended destination therefore we have a philosophical basis

01:11:28

Something that satisfies the preconditions of intelligibility to appeal to uniformity to make miracles look odd Further our

01:11:36

God is the triune holy holy holy God We are sinners rebels in a fallen creation and sir

01:11:43

We have no right to look up to God and tell him you do as I say, and I am very very glad Certainly glad for your sake tonight, sir that God doesn't allow us to call down fire upon you

01:11:57

I'm worried about that in the same sense. I'm worried about Dracula coming Well, I would say let me let me answer that that question what you talk about I think that's still my question

01:12:09

He asked a question you've had a few sir just to show respect to Dan I appreciate it. Thank you.

01:12:14

I appreciate yeah So when when you when you ask that question and it's interesting because just a few moments ago

01:12:21

We asked a question about absolute moral values and moral odds and you had no argument against Auschwitz That's not at all the case.

01:12:32

You have no ultimate argument against okay I have no ultimate argument against her because I don't even know what the hell that means

01:12:38

You don't know what I mean for nothing to exterminate. What do you mean an ultimate something? That's true outside of your own likes and dislikes your own experience something.

01:12:48

That's true outside of your own community It's true whether you would like it or not. It's old you haven't demonstrated that you have that either.

01:12:54

You know, I Assertion I told you that apart from the Christian God you can't make sense of human experience ethics morality

01:13:01

That's yet again a simple assertion You know evidence for this you right now that we have a basis to uphold your human value and dignity say you have a basis for We've demonstrated that we have a basis a philosophy

01:13:17

You've not demonstrated that you've asserted it Dan if I could finish the thought and then you could come right back and ask the question Hey, absolutely and and you just keep saying the same thing

01:13:25

I have to make sure that people know that that's not the we have a basis to complain about Auschwitz.

01:13:31

You don't Bullshit So, no,

01:13:42

I don't think it was you you've admitted that your perspective is that our ancestors were fish and that there are no

01:13:48

Ultimate values and oughts outside of our own experience or mere convention. You've essentially stipulated that position and so with your position

01:13:56

You have no complaint about anything ethically at all You can't tell me that I have no complaint because I know you

01:14:05

You're saying that I have that I need to have an ultimate authority for it Dan, I don't need an ultimate authority for that.

01:14:12

I admit this and I'm gonna say this with a lot of respect to you Yeah, you're in the image of God and you do complain about things that are immoral.

01:14:17

God needs to lose some weight You're in his image. I would encourage I Defer to you to ask questions.

01:14:24

I realize that there's getting a banter back here. It's your time to ask questions of them

01:14:31

Can I ask a very quick question? Very quick. I if you can answer it. Yes or no, that would be great

01:14:36

Otherwise, we may audience is moaning. Dr. Clark. Do you hallucinate often? Do I hallucinate often?

01:14:42

Yes. No, I Just yes or no. No, not often. I did before 20 years ago. Why do you hallucinate?

01:14:48

There was a lot of ecstasy and marijuana involved and that was so James white. Do you hallucinate often?

01:14:54

Okay, I say I hallucinate often and I say they hallucinate often everybody close one eye

01:14:59

Okay, look at me you don't see anything weird I'll project into what I think you see and yet you all knew since first grade that you had a blind spot in your eye

01:15:09

Because you have no photoreceptors there because the intelligently designed eye Has a hole in it where you can't see but you don't see that you can't see and what they're seeing is

01:15:20

Hallucinations and they claim they don't even know it. I Am telling you that they have just given okay, let me

01:15:32

Everyone in the room tonight knows the difference between the term Hallucination and the fact that there is a blind spot that we all have recognized and seen due to physical science

01:15:42

It's not the same thing. It is our sight system filling in and Allowing us to function in a meaningful fashion in this world.

01:15:52

That's not the same thing as the hallucination. We're playing on words here Could we get to some serious questions, please?

01:15:57

That actually that actually is a very serious question None of you can tell very easily which part of that is made up by your brain

01:16:05

Versus actually a stimulus out there in the real world. And when you see stuff that's not in the real world. That's a hallucination

01:16:18

I've got a question for you moving forward so I could hear you because it's oh, sorry I try to project enough that you can hear me anyway, but It muffles it kind of muffles the sound a little bit sometimes

01:16:32

So I'm curious about the totality of God's message in revealing himself to you

01:16:37

I know that you have said that he he writes the knowledge of his existence on our hearts and or minds and Reveals himself further through scripture, but you've said that people

01:16:51

Have Everybody has knowledge of God enough to that.

01:16:57

They have no excuse for for not believing in him, right? Is that basically okay? No, no, that's wrong. It's chapter one.

01:17:02

Yes. Okay. Thank you So When God revealed himself to you in your heart or mind

01:17:12

What was the totality of that message? Was it simply I exist or hi.

01:17:17

This is this is God I just wanted to let you know, I love you and I'm here for you. No, you're former

01:17:23

LDS, right? Yes, I am Okay, so this is this is an area of major difference between reformed

01:17:29

Christians and and the LDS faith because we believe That we were dead in our sin that we are in rebellion against God And in fact the term that Paul uses kata

01:17:39

Kantone in the original language We are suppressing the knowledge of him that is not really a part of LDS theology

01:17:45

Does not have any deep concept of man's depravity at all We believe because that's what Romans 1 is talking about So we believe there has to be a miraculous changing of our heart and we do not mean our physical heart

01:17:57

We mean the seat of our emotion and our desires there has to be something called resurrection

01:18:03

God has to be the one who changes us and brings us to spiritual life.

01:18:09

It's a it's a it's a spiritual resurrection It's radical and it's not something that we bring about by our own action

01:18:15

All right, but that wasn't my question. My question was was there anything like what was the task? What was what's the totality of his message to you when he revealed it?

01:18:22

Does that make sense? No very much Stan That's a great question. Thank you very much I think it goes to what you asked the audience to and I appreciated that moment where you ask our atheist friends in the audience

01:18:32

You know, you're an atheist and they raise their hands in Salt Lake. They're like, yes like, you know scared We love you.

01:18:39

Ah, so And I know I'm just you know, there's a context of where we're at today

01:18:44

So it's interesting our claim when we say that atheists know God is not that they are going

01:18:51

I'm only pretending I really know God exists and I'm just gonna suppress this and hold it down What we're saying is that it is a knowledge that is inescapable and the problem is

01:19:00

Self deception and that goes to your question We asked what is God revealed to a person when he opens their eyes and heart to see the truth.

01:19:07

He reveals that he's holy He reveals, but that's not really my question You said that it's written on everybody's hearts and mind initially.

01:19:14

We all have this knowledge So what is that knowledge specifically that God is that he's the one and only true

01:19:21

God in it? The scriptural answer is that we are to glorify him and give thanks to him

01:19:28

That's the it's not it's not the Trinity and all the rest that stuff that is in the natural realm

01:19:33

It is that he exists and we are his creature. That's that's us So let's be clear.

01:19:39

This vague speak is not addressing the issue God revealed revealed

01:19:45

To people that a question yes, this is your question time. Yeah, okay What did

01:19:52

God how did Moses write down the books? Was that just this feeling or did he actually get this specific information that fruit trees grew on earth before the

01:20:01

Sun and stars? Existed was that a revelation? Yes, it's revelation and when you but More than most meaningful responses require more than three seconds to express

01:20:13

Okay, if you would actually read that with any concern about Historical context or anything else you would discover that your objections are to a surface level

01:20:26

Fundamentalism and not to the text in its original language in context at all

01:20:33

Five minutes is obviously a very brief period of time and some of you are going. Yeah Thank you for coming this evening.

01:20:42

Thanks to Jason Wallace for putting the time and the effort into arranging this thanks to all of our crew who've come all this way and are making that available to I'm not even sure if it is or we're live streaming or anything if we are that that'd be great.

01:20:55

Super Thanks to everyone who has been involved with this even thanks to our opponents for being here this evening

01:21:02

Thank you for listening if you will leave this room this evening considering what has been said

01:21:10

When you look at the world around you when you function in this world based upon The regularity of nature based upon the fact that you can have true knowledge.

01:21:23

Have you thought through why that is? recognize the Destructiveness of the modern secular worldview the modern

01:21:32

Materialistic worldview look what it's doing to our society. Look what it does to us

01:21:38

There was a time when we had true knowledge because we recognized that we have intrinsic value as the creatures of God If we are nothing but ugly bags of mostly water

01:21:49

There is no reason to be concerned about justice and everything else

01:21:57

We need to recognize that our entire Culture was once based upon a recognition that we were made in the image of God This is a vitally important subject.

01:22:08

It's a vitally important thing for each one of us and I invite you please Don't just walk out of here and go.

01:22:15

Well, that was entertaining Think about what was said and recognize the centrality of the truths that we've presented to you.

01:22:23

Thank you very much Thank you, Dan And dr.

01:22:28

Clark, thank you guys for being here. Thank you all so much for coming tonight I'm gonna just address this one point.

01:22:38

It was a really powerful part of the dialogue I think Dan it was Dan you said it you asked the question

01:22:45

Why would God create this world if he's perfect if he's existed for all eternity is perfect and perfect himself

01:22:51

Why would he create all this? Why does he need us? And the answer is he doesn't And that was what you were arguing against this evening gentlemen was the triune

01:23:02

God of Scripture the God who has existed from all eternity as Father Son Holy Spirit the beginning of the

01:23:09

Gospel of John says an arcane halogos in the beginning was the word and the

01:23:15

Word was with God prostone theon toward the father in face -to -face Intimate relationship with the father and the word was

01:23:23

God as to his nature God God has existed from all eternity and perfect fellowship intimacy harmony in himself and Yet God created us.

01:23:34

Why would a perfect God create us and the answer from Scripture is to glorify himself

01:23:41

The answer from Scripture is what's our purpose? What does the Bible teach about our purpose our purpose is to glorify

01:23:47

God and to enjoy him forever He's existed from all eternity is the triune

01:23:53

God an intimate fellowship in the triune God and yet he creates image bearers of God to Know him and to experience him to love him to delight in him and to experience him

01:24:03

The glory of God in the gospel is that he displays in his creation of people like us

01:24:09

Creatures that rebel against him and throw their fists up at him He creates us to display the glories of his grace and his justice

01:24:20

And the glory of the gospel is that God in the person of Christ? Condescended entered into this rebellious creation to chase down a hostile rebel sinners like me

01:24:31

And if you know him like you too, and if you're not in him like you too

01:24:38

This God chases rebel sinners lives the life. They have failed to live

01:24:45

Dies a death that they deserve to die and rose again from the dead and the answer of the gospel is

01:24:54

The call of the gospel the good news is to turn away from sin to this

01:24:59

God and to trust in Jesus for salvation and for forgiveness to experience life in him

01:25:07

Eternal life, but I'm going to say one more thing in coming to Christ. You don't experience

01:25:12

Merely merely the gift of eternal life, but you actually will have a justification and foundation

01:25:20

For all that's happened tonight all that's been assumed uniformity laws of logic and ultimate ethics which they appealed to but never even attempted to really justify repent and believe the gospel

01:25:35

I Remind you that Mr. Wallace gave us choices of several topics in this debate and presuppositional ism was not it the charge for this debate

01:25:46

Was the triune God of the Bible exists, and it's an inerrant infallible

01:25:53

Bible They never addressed except by argument by assertion why an omnipotent

01:26:00

Being has to cut himself into three parts Not once did they try to explain that I invited them to explain that they

01:26:09

Obviated and ran away they tapped out. They didn't even get into the cage

01:26:15

Jeepers creepers all right, and that's that's very typical science actually offers results

01:26:21

Religion offers excuses it never does anything in the real world their

01:26:27

God Never does anything observable in the real world and they come up with all these excuses.

01:26:32

It's not his will he used to do it Well, you know I didn't try to misquote you You know we're talking fast, but but here was the question to you

01:26:41

James white or dr. Oakley whichever whichever name you like to hide behind tonight

01:26:47

Tim Vance let's say in a situation you would know everything biblically is correct that the elders have been called in for healing would you expect

01:26:54

Potentially any healing on a biblical scale Dr..

01:27:00

White Aka, dr. Oakley well since I've seen it happen it can happen

01:27:07

He's not appealing to the Bible. He's appealing to what he sees I gave him plenty of Opportunities to show us that miracles do exist that it in the real world without hiding behind words

01:27:20

Where is the evidence that fruit trees grew on earth before the sun and stars the existed? Where is the evidence that whales with lungs and hip bones, but no legs?

01:27:32

Actually came before any insects on the world There's no geological or evolutionary evidence for that and when it comes to the

01:27:41

Bible Right another part of show me is actually depending on them to show you not to say not to preach

01:27:48

But to actually show you so you all know what Jesus's last words were on earth right because you're all

01:27:54

Christians, right? What were his last words? They weren't even the last like famous last words before you die

01:27:59

These are famous last words after he died, right? These are the signs of those who have believed not just the

01:28:08

Apostles those who have believed They will drink deadly poison, and it will not harm them

01:28:16

It will not harm them. I have a

01:28:22

Device here that contains a substance, and it says it's extended life in it.

01:28:27

It's not eternal life, but it's extended Okay, but I got to warn you I got to warn you it also says

01:28:34

Harmful or fatal if swallowed, but Jesus has promised you in his own words

01:28:40

His very own words in his inerrant infallible words That these are the signs of those who have believed

01:28:53

This really is antifreeze. I do not recommend you drink it. I am NOT going to drink it.

01:28:59

I want to know Simple question which I would have asked, but I'll just ask it now

01:29:04

Is there anybody in the audience who will stand up for Jesus because he says if you deny him before men

01:29:12

He will deny you before your gods That's what he says now.

01:29:17

They may want to say oh, that's that's not what he really means because religion depends on excuses

01:29:23

Not results right smallpox is gone Why because science actually produces results not excuses so I invite you my brethren my lovers of Christ My my my sheep of your

01:29:36

Savior Don't just flap your words Don't just move your mouth

01:29:43

Come up here, and it's a simple thing that you laughed at for Lucy Smith No, of course.

01:29:50

They're not Mormons the point was that they laugh at that and so here it is folks here

01:29:55

It is show me anybody anybody Buehler Go ahead you laugh you laugh

01:30:02

You're laughing at yourselves because there's not a single one of you who has the decency to admit that that's nonsense

01:30:10

Or the decency to actually show what you believe every single one of you knows that it is nonsense

01:30:17

That your Lord Jesus Christ has no more power than Godzilla And if you want to debate that don't just flap your lips come up here in front of this entire audience and Show your faith show the signs of those who have believed

01:30:37

Because there's no reason to believe you if you just flap your lips and don't practice what you preach

01:30:45

Show me If There was ever a time when there was absolutely nothing

01:31:04

Well there we don't believe that there was God's always existed and of course there was a

01:31:11

Even when you say there was a time before creation you're imposing Created time upon the

01:31:18

Creator. I believe God is timeless in the crater of time so I Don't know how to answer that question because it assumes that God could not exist

01:31:28

Which is a presuppositional issue? Yeah, they were

01:31:37

So I'm not a physicist or cosmologist, but here's three interesting facts that two of which already know

01:31:45

Right one is equals MC squared once again You find nothing like that in the

01:31:51

Bible despite the omniscient God what you find is like fruit trees grow on earth before the Sun and Stars exist and where did the atoms come from they don't know about Adam okay, so equals this

01:32:00

MC squared, right? So energy and matter are interchangeable You all know that you all know even though you don't understand the equations

01:32:07

Neither do I but there's no God particle in the equations other than what got named the God particle you also all know that on quantum physics level

01:32:16

Causality is not what we think about with our senses on a macroscopic scale actually things do happen without a cost now

01:32:23

Here's the kicker the present energy and mass and positive and negative energy and the universe at the moment is zero

01:32:33

Cool thought I just did one do you want to do it or I can

01:32:43

I? Am admittedly fallible

01:32:50

I have my scientific papers with me. We don't claim certainty in science We claim that we've done things that are improbable like flipping a coin 30 times in a row is improbable

01:33:00

But it's not impossible. We don't know with a hundred percent certainty. That's the nature of inductive logic

01:33:10

Yeah, Christians can one of the I think the one of the most fantastic things about the biblical worldview is you can make claims to certainty

01:33:18

Our our claims to certainty are rooted outside of our own likes and dislikes our own human experience

01:33:24

They're based upon the self attesting word of God now these atheists don't like this

01:33:30

God They don't like that He's the reference point of all these questions But they haven't provided an answer an ultimate answer for knowledge at all

01:33:37

Christians have a basis for knowledge and to make knowledge claims and to say something is absolutely true or we're certain about it

01:33:43

I am certain the triune God of Scripture exists Well, obviously if God exists and he has revealed himself and in his revelation

01:34:02

He says that men are suppressing the knowledge of him The way they suppress that knowledge is in many different ways different religions apathy worldliness, whatever it might be

01:34:12

That is not relevant to the reality that if God exists

01:34:17

Then he has the right and ability to reveal himself in one particular way

01:34:23

The thing about it if Jesus really was the God -man the eternal Son of God who took on flesh

01:34:30

Imagine the condescension of the one who holds the universe together entering into his own creation and then imagine the

01:34:38

Arrogance on our part for us to turn around and say appreciate it, but we'd like a different way

01:34:44

No, if God exists, he has the right to determine what his truth is and how we relate to him

01:35:17

So epistemologically We cannot prove with a hundred percent certainty And in fact, we have reason to believe that the

01:35:23

Sun is not going to rise every day in a row, right? That's not our claim, right? But every one of you knows

01:35:30

Even though we don't understand gravity We don't know if it's one of the fundamental four forces or if it can be merged with those forces but You walk out of a tall building you take the stairs, right?

01:35:43

So we do not claim complete certainty and I can show you my paper we That's not what we do.

01:35:50

Right? We we say that this is very likely or very unlikely

01:35:55

We don't go to P equals one. We don't go to P equals zero except within rounding error Okay, and science works

01:36:03

Right religion doesn't as Victor Stegner says science flies you to the moon religion flies you

01:36:10

Into buildings and the real problem were not that Stalin was an atheist, right?

01:36:16

The real problem was that he demanded complete power like his God. He was also a man.

01:36:22

He also wore a mustache That's not what he caused him to be Mean -spirited your

01:36:28

God watch six million Jews He could have intervened and every single one of you who's a

01:36:33

Christian says that was the right thing for my God to do Is to let those Jews die

01:36:42

Yeah, and in your worldview all that happened then was the scattering of protoplasm

01:36:48

It has no meaning you're borrowing again from our worldview notice what this Gentleman says here this evening before you complained at the beginning that we merely claimed the

01:36:56

Christian God is the foundation of all these things And we're starting from that reference point when he was asked to justify his appeals to science scientific method induction all of that He says it just works

01:37:08

That's it no justification Just cuz now that wasn't the nature of our claim tonight our claim tonight wasn't just cuz we provided foundation

01:37:19

Justification the principium these gentlemen did not we live by faith in the triune God of Scripture and we say that without him

01:37:26

You can't prove anything He demonstrated when he says we cannot prove everything with certainty and we think maybe the

01:37:32

Sun will come out tomorrow We really don't know he lives by blind faith

01:37:37

But here's the key thing when he gets into airplanes. He doesn't live like that Just consider it

01:37:58

The very same evidence that I just produced by pressing start on my cell phone

01:38:04

You see the power button on this thing is on the outside Not the inside why because the intelligent person designed it knew

01:38:12

I couldn't press it if it's on the inside When you look at what ATP synthase does its specificity

01:38:21

It is plainly and clearly Designed and you should be very thankful right now that it works very very well

01:38:29

But it is on such a micro level that it's far more advanced than this is we haven't gotten to that level yet and if we ever do all it proves it's going to take a tremendous amount of intellect and trying and Planning and studying and knowledge to get there

01:38:47

How did that happen before we had any of that information the one who designed it made all that information?

01:38:54

He's the creator So intelligent design tried its hand and was debunked.

01:39:00

This is an old argument and Just just as a reminder William Beehue who was the proponent of it was asked

01:39:08

Whether he had positive evidence for God because of intelligent design And he said yes, just like these fellows till he got in under oath, and then he said no

01:39:19

I have only negative evidence. It's God of the gaps. I can't figure out who did it therefore God did it right that tells you nothing that wasn't already in that assumption

01:39:28

And here's the thing every time science finds something out right your God knew nothing about cells it knew nothing about subcellular organelles

01:39:35

There's nothing like that in the Bible because the primitive people who wrote the Bible knew nothing about it But every time we find something out about science right we find an intermediate species the creationists go

01:39:46

Oh now you have two gaps because we used to have one to two and now we've got one in between so now there's another

01:39:52

And that's the game they keep playing and they keep playing it till they have to go to the doctor

01:39:58

And then they go oh give me science because faith healing is quackery whether it's done by Baptist preachers

01:40:04

Whether it's done by the Pope or whether it's done by Presbyterian Nothingness ooh, can

01:40:27

I take this one? So the comfort that I have in this life, can can you repeat the question for me again?

01:40:40

Well, it's it's phrased a little it's phrased a little strange for me, but this is something that I wanted to talk about a little bit during the rebuttal, but I ran out of time that There is no inherent meaning for life.

01:40:57

You don't have to follow anybody That's that's one of the taglines in the opening for The podcast that I co -host you don't have to follow anybody life has the meaning that you give it

01:41:11

What's great about being an atheist is that we realize that this is the one and only life that we will ever have

01:41:16

It's what makes life so precious. It's what makes us. It's what drives us to do good in the world

01:41:22

It's what drives us to be good to each other It's what drives us to be kind to be loving to care about our fellow human beings because we know that this is all we will ever have and it seems silly to me and a pointless waste of time

01:41:38

To spend any bit of it in worship of a monster. I am so thankful for that response.

01:41:49

Oh I'll answer just by quoting the late atheist. Dr. Will Provine in his debate with Phil Johnson at Stanford University He said quote, let me summarize my views and what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear

01:42:02

And these are basically Darwin's views. There are no gods No purposes and no goal -directed forces of any kind.

01:42:10

There is no life after death When I die, I am absolutely certain that I'm going to be dead.

01:42:16

That's the end of me There is no ultimate foundation for ethics. No ultimate meaning in life and no free will for humans either

01:42:24

That is atheism Well that proved that textual criticism matters and I'm thankful for that Now if if the good doctor would do just a little bit of research a little bit study show some respect for the other side he could have

01:42:58

Accessed a critical edition in the Greek New Testament and would have understood that there is a textual variant of that passage

01:43:05

He seems to think that inerrancy has something to do with exactly which text you choose rather than the original autographs

01:43:12

He's very confused as to what inerrancy is he's confused as to what manuscripts But the man has no access to that did not ask for any access to that But brought a visual aid which he complained about me holding up an iPad, but he brought prestone antifreeze hmm,

01:43:30

I guess we can have different standards, but obviously the entire

01:43:35

Argument missed the importance of the fact that miracles happen at a particular point in God's history

01:43:44

Again James White says they happen today Dr. Waller Pastor Wallace says they happen today.

01:43:53

They say they have seen them. Okay, it's simple folks show me It's not about the antifreeze.

01:43:59

It's about any one of the miracles that doesn't happen Anyway, I'm not very impressed when you say

01:44:04

I prayed for rain and somewhere in the next hundred days it rained Sorry folks.

01:44:10

The only miracles you produce are things that would happen anyway, and then you look backwards and go

01:44:16

Oh, yeah, that's due to prayer. Okay, so I invite you right now to show or next week or next

01:44:24

Month, I do work with people who need Neuropathies to have these changes happen.

01:44:31

We can in fact cause people who are blind otherwise to see we can in fact cause people Who are deaf otherwise to hear we stimulate their auditory nerves with modern technology

01:44:41

And they can understand speech and I might have to get one of those suckers Okay And I can have people actually feel right but you all with your prayer do

01:44:52

Nothing, and then you praise God for nothingness and then you take money for that It doesn't have to be routinely

01:45:11

Dan has made that point, right Doesn't have to be routinely How many how many amputees do you need to heal right?

01:45:21

Jesus did it all at once Miracles can happen if you say that it's easy show me it doesn't have to be every time

01:45:29

But show me a real miracle that would not happen and any excuse that you use

01:45:35

It has to be better than my excuse for Godzilla was able to do it But didn't want to at this particular point in time if you can't do any better than that Godzilla in the corner

01:45:46

You can't do anything and that's what you believe And if you don't show me don't just sat there going yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

01:45:56

Yeah, show me show me show me show me anybody show us show us Hundreds of people in this room one miracle

01:46:05

Show some respect May I may I respond to the question the

01:46:11

Bible nowhere tells us to expect miracles as a run -of -the -mill situation it nowhere gives us any reason to believe that we in our arrogance and in our anger could dare

01:46:24

God to engage in miraculous behavior There is nothing in the

01:46:30

Bible that even suggests anything like this miracles were primarily done to establish the authority

01:46:36

Of people within the community of God to establish for example the

01:46:41

Apostles in their authority There were purposes for them They are not

01:46:48

Intended to be some kind of show to show Rebel sinners who hate

01:46:54

God and already are suppressing the knowledge of God that they should believe in him

01:46:59

That is not why they exist What what 30 seconds no, what no