Hegseth, TGC New President, SBC Abuse Controversy

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00:01

We are now live on the conversations that matter podcast Let me know if the audio is sounding good out there, please in the comments.

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This is an unannounced podcast Well, I let I let the patrons know probably four hours or five hours ago that I would try to do something around five so it's 530 now by 35,

00:22

I guess and I They're the only ones I guess who knew so we have people starting to come into the

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Stream here, but if you are listening and You're you're just coming and please let me know if the audio sounds good because I'm still getting used to this

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Semi new setup that I have. Anyway, we have a lot to talk about today. We are gonna talk about Pete Hegseth a little bit and the some of the things surrounding that Regarding the

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Christian nationalist debate if you want to call it that and I mean, that's what NPR calls it, right? We're gonna talk a little bit about the

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Southern Baptist Convention and what's going on the latest on the whole alleged abuse crisis or abuse prevention efforts and how that's going not too well,

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I'll put it that way and Let's also talk about the gospel coalition they just Elected actually,

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I don't know how they do this elected selected. I guess the board probably met and they selected a new president

01:26

Mark Rogop and I have talked about him actually before on this podcast.

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I was trying to look back to Find episodes to see where I did that, but I couldn't find them

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I know I have because I remember this is years ago now But someone from that church had told me who knew

01:44

Mark. He said Mark is not like you John I said, yeah, why is that?

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I guess I had something to do with I had said something against Mark and I Don't remember what it was exactly.

01:57

I know it has to do with woke stuff I know he went pretty hard woke, but we're gonna talk about that a little bit and that's

02:05

There's more but that's mostly it and one of the things about these News roundup episodes where I have a number of things

02:12

I want to talk about that I've just been saving for perhaps a week or two sometimes longer I I want to keep it open and I and you know,

02:21

I take questions on most podcasts But in this particular one, I really want people to feel free to ask any question they want to ask about current issues or things that are ongoing and Obviously, I'll use my discretion as to whether that's something that the whole audience would be interested in But feel free to leave a comment on Facebook on YouTube or on X I will see them on either or all three of those.

02:45

So with that no one's saying anything about the audio So I'm assuming it's coming through. Okay, hopefully that continues we are going to start with Oh, I have an announcement.

02:57

Okay, we'll start with an announcement and then we're gonna get into the Hegseth stuff I suppose So here's the announcement. I need to keep pushing this because I Have multiple communications with the church in Shelbyville, Kentucky telling me this is the last week for their early bird sale

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For the conference coming up with 80 Robles and myself called the Reformation war room.

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This is for men It's on March 1st 2025 it's a Saturday event.

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So I'm also gonna be preaching actually at that church. So March 2nd I'll be in Shelbyville as well and Yeah, look forward to that.

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But while I'm at it, I might as well let you know that February 21st to 22nd

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I will be in Vancouver, Washington Which is right near Portland, Oregon At the political

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Christianity menace or mandate conference You can check that out. John Harris podcast comm go to speaking and you'll find all of the links

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I will also be at let's see the right response conference in Temple, Texas, April 3rd through 5th

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I will also be at the Christianity in the founding conference in Selins Grove, Pennsylvania April 25th through 26.

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You definitely want to go to that if you are anywhere near the area. It's gonna be a great time it's a really good price and there's also a

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VIP dinner that you're gonna want to be at and That'll give you a chance to talk to me in a more informal setting so go check out the link

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You could also go to Christianity in the founding comm and then the truth conference Mount Laurel, New Jersey May 2nd through 4th and after this

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Wednesday I'm gonna be adding another May date in Florida So I'll let you know about that when

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I have more information on it. But yeah things are filling up and it's great I'm actually

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I'm looking forward to all of this because I have a number of new projects That hopefully

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I'll be able to take with me. It's gonna cut it close with the whole February 21st through 22nd thing I'm not sure if I'll have everything that I have coming out for that conference in Vancouver But I have an album a music album coming out and that's you can go to johnharristunes .com

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for updates on that but we are still on track for February 1st release of that album and I've heard some of the good

05:07

Tracks that Tim Bouchon's been the one mixing some of this and it sounds great and Also, I have a new book hopefully coming out there's so I let the patrons know a little bit

05:18

It's gonna come out but the timing is the question. So I told the patrons earlier today some of the things

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I'm investigating in regard to publishing and we'll see if I do a

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The route I'm thinking of possibly doing then we could have it very quickly So we'll see what happens with that, but I'll have more information

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Anyway, that's it for announcements. We got to start some actual content here and we'll start here.

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I just want to Reflect on this because I I just thought this is such a great thing to see.

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This is Pete Hegseth and it is at the confirmation hearing for being the director of the

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Department of Defense and this is what he says at one point and Let me know again everyone listening, you know, whether the audio is coming through here

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And as Jenny and I pray together every morning all glory

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Regardless of the outcome belongs to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ His grace and mercy abounds each day

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May his will be done. All right, so there you go I mean, it's just a little clip but how often do you hear that kind of thing?

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I mean, you don't even hear God think that award shows anymore. It used to be at Award shows.

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In fact, there was a comedian who joked about this recently that even television and you know

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Movie like the Golden Globes or the Emmys or Grammys you hear someone. Thank God at least generically

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Sometimes Jesus Christ at country music award shows you definitely when I was younger heard Jesus Christ Thank you.

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Don't hear it anymore much and to hear someone who's Actually going to be the defense secretary

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Say this in a public forum is very encouraging now Pete Hegseth is a member of the CREC and that's the same denomination or at least a church in that that Doug Wilson is in for those who want a recognizable name and I thought it was interesting that I think it was

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Right around this time NPR released this someone turned me on to this and said you should check this out so I'm gonna play this and We'll see if Yeah, people saying audio is good.

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Good. Good. Good. Okay. Let's hope that continues So I'm gonna play this from NPR and I want you to just listen.

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This is recent. This was Jane Well, January 12th says five days ago so in anticipating that I think

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Pete Hegseth from this denomination and And and also by the way, I should also mention guys like Russ Vought who?

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Is at what what is his position? He's a also very faithful Christian. He's in I Think he's doing accounting or something.

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Like well, that sounds so terrible. I should look this up just to make sure I have the right office Listed here.

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Let me just make sure Russell It's a it's a very authoritative office. He's not an accountant.

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It's a Office of management and budget that's what it is office of management and budget

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So he's a very strong Christian Southern Baptist as I understand it. So anyway NPR puts this out ahead of these

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Nominations from Donald Trump and this is what they have to say about theocrats on the doorsteps of power

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That's the name of this This show or this the episode from up first from NPR.

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So it's I guess their weekend show So here's what they have to say at one portion of this show Theocrats on the doorsteps of power ex -trump term.

08:51

We'll be right back We're back with Heath Drusen talking about his podcast extremely

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American which takes this deep dive into Christian nationalism and talks to the practitioners of it who are very open and about it one thing that I was struck by in the excerpt that we just heard is that They want the nation to be run under this idea of Christianity or Christ That's where I get a little confused because I'm a

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Christian and Grew up in a very conservative church But I guess I want to get some clarity on what these specific

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Christian nationalists when they're talking about a Christian Government like what what does that actually look like to them?

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Yeah in the view of the Christian nationalists. I talked to it's an extremely narrow view of what

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Christianity can be It's a Protestant view of it and even more than that really if you're outside of the sort of Calvinist Baptist umbrella then they don't really consider you

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Christian. So if you're Catholic if you're Mormon You're still in the out group in their very narrow view of what a

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Christian America would look like the other part of this that I think is You know, very interesting is that there was like another very pro

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US and Protestant movement in in the 1920s and that was like the

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Ku Klux Klan right where To be American was to be white and to be

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Protestant right like that was a part of this right, like that was a part of What it meant and obviously now the

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Klan was a terrorist organization But I just wonder how does whiteness interact with this movement?

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Yeah, it's a pretty white movement and Doug Wilson who leads Christchurch he co -wrote a pamphlet called southern slavery as it was which very much whitewashed the evils of slavery and Painted the

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Confederacy as the victims. So there's some serious baggage there and There's some real infighting and a bit of a civil war going on within the

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Christian nationalist movement I've gone kind of down the rabbit hole and seen some people go to some dark places mostly on the platform

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X where there are elements of Christian nationalism who have really embraced Antisemitism and racism.

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They've basically just like embraced alternative theories about the Holocaust and slavery and then there's people

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Kind of it's a weird thing to say but like the moderate Christian nationalists More moderate, right, right and they're and they're like pushing back like whoa, whoa, whoa

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We don't like being quote -unquote woke But but you guys are going too far and you're putting a stain on the movement there is a big battle going on inside the movement between The folks who see not being woke is actually being racist and the other people who are like no

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That's not what we're about you guys. You guys need to get your head straight Okay, so there's not many things

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I want to say about this and I apologize for putting you through that Your ears are bleeding.

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I know I understand This is there's a few points. I wanted to make though One is that I want you to notice the fact that you do have major media.

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This is NPR trying to Go he said go down the rabbit hole.

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They're trying to figure out what's happening in Christian Right circles,

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I think this would be beyond just Christian nationals and that's obviously the term they're using and And so just realize that too when you're online when you're interacting with political things.

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There's People being paid by the left to try to figure out what's going on.

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They're very interested in the movement, which also means that If they're doing this kind of thing there's no reason to think they wouldn't be attempting to derail the movement attack the movement, which means infiltrate the movement and I've wondered sometimes when

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I have talked to some people or some people have reached out to me in the past on either messenger or X whether or not

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I'm actually talking to someone who's someone who admires the podcast

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Who might even be a Christian or whether it's someone who's a fed or someone who's in the media trying to covertly find stuff

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Out. I I just want to put that warning out there guys. There is this focus Even though you think you're in perhaps

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This off the beaten path Realm of the internet talking about certain things.

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There's people watching. So that's one thing. Just be careful. The other thing is If you notice in that little clip

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I played there's only one identifiable figure that's brought up and that's Doug Wilson, which Who is not a

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Baptist? He said before Calvinist Baptists. It's very narrow. Obviously Doug Wilson's not a Baptist, but he is

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You know, I wouldn't expect people from NPR to know these kind of differences But he's a he's a scary guy, right and and that's the only thing they need to mention

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They need to mention anything else. I mean, I'm assuming they could have used other things But all they need to say is look he's got a view on slavery or a view on The Confederacy that is out of step with the prevailing neo -abolitionist narrative, which is which is the prevailing interpretation today?

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And that's it. You're you're done, right? You're that this is this dark dark thing for the other

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Examples, he doesn't give any names. He doesn't give any figures. It's just like this shroud of Darkness that paints the whole thing and they're gonna do this no matter what

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I think It doesn't matter if you say new Christian, right? Or as someone said this week, we should call it resurgent

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Christian, right? Because we're just trying to go back to real conservatism or something. Okay, it doesn't matter what you call it

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This is what the media is going to do obviously, so why pay attention to them John? Well, I I don't really

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I don't someone sent me that clip and I just thought every once in a while It's good to know how they're what they're thinking about us and I mean us in the sense of Christians who want to be involved in political things because they see that as a threat and It's good to I think understand their strategies and and not be

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Taken in by them and so forth. So this is happening at a time when you have someone from Doug Wilson's denomination as the head of the department or will be the head of the

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Secretary of Defense and you have other Christians that are gonna populate this administration and this is what the media is gonna do with those guys as we

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Continue you saw it with the Hegseth Process, I mean you had people that were you know senators like like Jill LeBrand who you're

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I'm gonna show you One of her quotes in a moment who really got on to him

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And this is one of the paths they tried to go down and painting him as this extreme figure of some kind so Be prepared.

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Obviously, we've lived through first Trump presidency, but I think this one's gonna be a little different in that it you know, they focus on white nationalism and these kinds of things but the last year

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Especially I've seen Christian nationals and being the big boogeyman. That's what they're going to do.

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I think to any one of any With any authority who's a Christian in the government?

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So my My perception there. I'm gonna take a few questions, I guess because I see comments coming in and then we'll keep going

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Or comments you spoke. This is from be Bob and you spoke of mark Rogop when the woke lament video came out a few years ago.

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That's right I remember this mark is big into the white guilt message. That is right. Yeah TGC had this whole lament session on Racial violence or something like that, right?

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And so mark was involved in that. You're absolutely right. That was the

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Maybe the only time that I talked about mark, but at least was one of the times Okay, come on jobs my ears are hurt.

17:22

Yeah. Sorry. Sorry Yeah, if you'll get upset when I play too much of a leftist on the podcast

17:27

You didn't come here to hear that. I know I know Okay, I wanted to Let's switch.

17:34

Oh, no, we're not gonna switch gears entirely. Let's talk about this. I said from Kirsten Gillibrand. So This is something

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Biden did today if you can believe this President Biden just declared that the Equal Rights Amendment is now a valid part of the

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Constitution. I kid you not He actually said it's part of the Constitution and should be considered the law of the land

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This is an incredible moment for reproductive freedom and a historic day for equality Especially with Americans facing the further degradation of reproductive freedom as the incoming administration takes power now women living in states with restrictions

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On their reproductive freedoms can and should file suits to overturn these unconstitutional laws that discriminate on the basis of sex

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I know they will have ample support as they seek justice and I promise to stand by their side in the fight and this is in response or quote tweeting

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President Biden who said today I am affirming that I have long believed and What three -fourths of the states have ratified the 28th amendment is the law of the land

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Guaranteeing all Americans equal rights and protections under the law regardless of their sex

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So the They're the readers said there this was community noted of course

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The National Archivist who is responsible for enrolling new amendments has stated that the ERA has not been lawfully ratified

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Setting a legal opinion drafted by the Biden Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel in 20 2022

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Confirming this position. So this is interesting to me. I don't I haven't looked into all the details of this

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I think this is probably more symbolic than anything else Because Joe Biden can't just say we have an amendment that's ratified but you know, obviously he's on his way out and he's trying to say that you know

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This is part of the Constitution and you got Democrats trying to I guess back him up on that I don't think this is gonna stand up to legal scrutiny, but here's the thing

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This Just shows you how much of a bullet we dodged and I really want those who did not vote for Trump and I understand

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Some of the reasons people did not do that especially those from the abolitionist abortion abolitionist crowd who were concerned very much so about Trump's softness on abortion

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Realize the bullet that we just dodged. This is The state of the

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Democrat Party this is The agenda of Biden and Harris I think would have probably even been more aggressive

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They were in defense for the last year. Remember that they were in defense because they he had to win an election

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But when they have their druthers and they can do what they want. What do they do?

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It's this kind of stuff. So They Are dead set on enshrining

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Roe v. Wade and abortion on demand and all of that Let's switch gears let's talk about the gospel coalition a little bit just a little bit and I think the reason that we should talk about this is because it is a signal to us that the gospel coalition is not changing their mind when it comes to their

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Enthusiasm maybe more so in the past you might say but I've seen things even more recently that I would say line up with this

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For being positive towards wokeness social justice that kind of stuff and to put mark

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Rogoff in this position as the new president I think actually illustrates this that they he's never and I confirm this by the way

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I mean he he has not apologized. He hasn't retracted. He's admitted He was wrong on any of what he did and this is the and I'll show you that in a minute some of it the gospel coalition

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Announced this a few days ago and it's an odd thing I don't know why they did this but they they put a video out there

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This is their Twitter or their ex interaction, right? I hear I've heard the gospel coalition is growing and they're getting more finances

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That may be true because Millennials are ascending to a point where they actually have money to donate and I think gospel coalition is a total

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Millennial especially older millennial organization. That's what they are. And I think they're gonna be stuck there That's my prediction and it could be that Millennials have more money and they're giving more but look 10 likes to reach here and This is a video that they put out about Mark Rogoff talking about toxic masculinity in his balanced way and I listened to it

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I'm not gonna play it for you because I don't want your ears to bleed more but It was just curious why

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I put this out there and He's concerned that some men are getting too masculine and not you know

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They think it's not you shouldn't cry and father's telling their sons at sporting events not to cry and stuff

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But but he also, you know, he's balanced. So he went the other direction and you gotta be able to Play hard when you're playing a sport.

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You can't just be passive. So it was super seven minutes of Blah Just I didn't really learn anything didn't

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I didn't find it helpful But gospel collision was that a lot of stuff I got in my opinion anyway

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That's what they chose to release in Conjunction with this announcement weird. Okay.

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All right, but that's that's I guess what mark mark is against toxic masculinity Well, here's a this

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I just caught my eye. This is a guy on X It's at totally underscore

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Brandon's his name is Brandon and he used to attend the church that mark

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Pastors and this is what he said The gospel coalition has appointed a new president and I used to attend his church.

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Let me share some highlights From the last sermon series before I left one people it was called

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I was effectively a it was a three -week struggle session about white privilege. So he's got screenshots and everything

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It's called College Park Church I think it's near Chicago if I'm not mistaken, he says

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And he has quotes from here. So Things like this how long Oh Lord Well, my white brothers and sisters not understand the pain in those whose experience is different than ours

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How long Oh Lord will my minority brothers and sisters struggle with distrust and feel misunderstood and ostracized?

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the economic machine created by Europeans was Expanding at a torrid pace and its dark secret was its reliance on slave labor as its primary fuel

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The horror of slavery was a major moral crisis for America But instead of acknowledging the sin of that enterprise we went into the opposite direction

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We began to de -emphasize the differences within various European ethnicities and began to describe white people as human collective that was inherently superior to people of color and It goes to it being it's just over and over quote similar to what

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I've just described from mark I began weeping in his office and when my african -american co -worker asked him what was going on He said our brother just saw something he has never seen before and he was right

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And he says our friend gets woke to the african -american experience. He will shed many more tears and it's all it's everything

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You know from 2020. It's the whole standpoint theory where you know white people don't have the right perspective and they need to struggle to obtain these oppressed perspectives and this is somehow part of our

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Christianity and It's incumbent on us to repent even if we've never

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Participated in anything sinful because we're white It's all of that and it just cuts through.

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I mean, there's so many more quotes here and it's it's you know It's it's all like it literally or Lurie.

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It literally is all of it. It really is it's the whole kit and caboodle and This is mark and this is mark in the context of the

25:22

Sunday morning service So I believe this is a Sunday Yeah, this is a

25:28

Sunday teaching series that I guess this is part of I guess he brought in some woke guys to do talks so was it say

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Micah Edmondson was one of them I think and What else? Oh?

25:45

HB Charles comes up in this, you know I never I've never really understood the thing with HB like some guys really like him who aren't woke and stuff and I I've always thought like he was

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He's he had nominated Al Mohler if I'm not mistaken right he was the guy that did that last time I Know he speaks at Shepherds conference and that kind of stuff, but I've always thought he's got a soft spot for the woke stuff

26:08

All right. Well, I'm not gonna read through all of this. This just keeps going and going and going I thought Jarvis Williams came up in here somewhere.

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Oh, there it is They invited Jarvis Williams to do a church conference on race. Well, there you go. I mean Jarvis Williams I've talked about him in the podcast before literally every facet of critical race theory

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Jarvis Williams Embraces there you could say that he doesn't embrace the atheism that undergirds it or something but as far as like the actual teachings like, you know, the memory studies the

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Standpoint theory the idea that You know racism doesn't ever really go away.

26:46

It just changes forms The color blindness is racism, you know all of it.

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He embraces the whole thing So that's mark and they're making him now

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He's the president of gospel coalition. And so, you know, like why bring this stuff up John from went with him

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Was this 2020 or something? Well, I bring it up to just say look I Understand people say things they regret later.

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I mean, this is a big one This is a big boo -boo if you want to put it that way But this is someone who hasn't owned this stuff he hasn't repented of it there's no evidence to indicate he thinks that this was a problem and This is done publicly some of this done in conjunction with the gospel coalition and I think this is a double down This is the gospel coalition saying we know we've gotten all this pushback for our woke stuff and we don't really care

27:35

We're going this is who we're gonna make we're not changing directions at all Which is unfortunate,

27:41

I guess because you know Gospel, I mean, I don't know if they have potential their brand is so tarnished unfortunately at this point, but There you know, don't expect gospel coalition to be making any major changes.

27:53

Okay Let's turn to the Southern Baptist Convention and then I'll take some questions at the end or comments or cries of outrage

28:01

So this was interesting to me a little bit So Johnny Hunt as some of you know, cuz

28:07

I've talked about it is in a lawsuit with the Southern Baptist Convention and I And I I guess guys guidepost solutions also good so they brought in guidepost solutions to assess the level of Sexual abuse happening in their convention and so forth and Johnny Hunt, of course was in this report and Johnny Hunt claims the reports wrong and I'm not gonna go into all of that there.

28:31

It is weird to me a little bit though so Where's the the colonel here?

28:37

This is the headline right hunt reveals Six hundred and ten thousand dollar salary seeks millions in relief from the cooperative program

28:47

He was making six hundred and ten thousand dollars And I think was it I think a little

28:52

McCraney might have been the one that actually sent this to me Someone's texted this to me a little while ago and just said did you know he was making this much?

28:59

So The pastor of Woodstock Baptist Church in Georgia That must have been what he was making

29:08

He he was also, let's see senior vice president for evangelism and leadership with the North American Mission Board as well, so he was seeking

29:18

You know damages he wants to be compensated because of the way he was me too'd 11 years of lost salary and employment benefits book sales speaking engagements and other lost income totaling fifteen point four million dollars

29:31

Wow Additionally, he offered that his reputational harm is valued Between thirty and forty five million and that the cost of his emotional distress amounted to another thirty two million to forty five million

29:41

Well, congratulations Southern Baptists. He wins any of this and he's been doing pretty well you'll be paying some of this you will be paying with your tithes and offerings because well in Part of it is because the

29:57

Southern Baptist Convention did something incredibly foolish He also indicated that he would see punitive damage award in the amount to be determined by the jury and reasonable attorney fees and costs

30:06

Notably, he listed his lost salary and benefits at six hundred ten thousand dollars a year Over half a million a year that it's just a little startling to me that he was making this much money

30:16

Like it makes you wonder the bigwigs in the SPC What are they making and I've heard this for years people have told me

30:24

Even guys ex -executive committee guys who don't want to go on the record, but they'll say yeah, it's people are getting rich There's all these sweet deals going on people drawing multiple salaries sometimes because they're on you know, they have this position with this entity and also

30:41

Drawing from the church and they don't have to do anything in this position. It's crazy and And I think there is one way to look at this whole abuse crisis allegedly and see motivation to Slay the golden goose to to look at the

31:00

SPC as this big Pocket of money that's there for the taking and you know

31:05

If we run it into the ground who's gonna get the leftovers? I hate to say that I know and I've said it before and other people like Randy Adams is in a more judicious way said as much about the way the

31:15

SPC is run, but sometimes the golden rule applies meaning those with the gold rules and they're after the gold and they

31:26

That there could be a lot of that that I think motivates and it's just it gives you a little window It just gives you a little window into How the elites in the

31:34

SPC some of them at least What they're making crazy, right? And I again like I don't have a problem with people making money.

31:43

I don't have obviously I think that if you can make money and use it for good purposes you you should but It's a little shocking when you find out how much like a pastor makes

31:56

I don't think pastor should be even kept in poverty Necessarily, but you know Johnny hunt to me like John. Is he really this big big name?

32:03

Is he like like MacArthur? I would think has millions coming in because of all his books and stuff Johnny hunt real out. I Wouldn't think so But the salary

32:11

I mean the sound we're not even talking about that. We're doing a salary $610 ,000 that's crazy to me.

32:19

Maybe some of you disagree with that. I'm open to correction But that surprised me. Okay, let's talk about this.

32:25

This is what I wanted to get to so this is really, I think a big deal this highlights the failure of The executive committee of the

32:36

SBC's approach to this whole alleged abuse crisis Which as we talked about before isn't really an abuse crisis.

32:43

It doesn't mean abuse doesn't happen It does but to call it a crisis to say that it's as we're just like the

32:49

Catholic Church It's just like other organizations that have real problems you know, I know Megan Basham's run some of the numbers on this and it's like, you know, it's a very small number of pastors in this decentralized denomination

33:04

That have been convicted at least of sexual abuse and so forth but what has happened is one of the strategies that they've employed is trying to Create a database of potential sexual predators that is beyond the

33:25

You know the normal legal Databases that exist out there so normally, you know

33:31

What are the conservatives said from the beginning you have a sexual predator in your church? Who do you call you call the police?

33:37

But the me too folks have wanted no In addition or along with you should have this

33:45

Database maybe you can't call the police or something It's not to that level But if we have a reporting system where you could anonymously report someone then we'll have this this way to prevent abuse

33:58

Well, let's see how this is played out the SBC Court of Appeals, sorry the

34:03

Tennessee Court of Appeals Just rendered a decision and they affirm part of the trial courts decision to deny an

34:12

SBC motion and Let me actually lean back up here.

34:18

The case is about this guy named Preston Garner who was on staff at a church and They there was anonymous tip that said he had a history of sexually abusing others apparently

34:27

So the SBC Executive Committee reports that to the church. He loses his job now. He's seeking Compensation and so they affirm this decision by the lower courts

34:39

The Tennessee Court of Appeals affirms this decision denying the SBC's motion to dismiss on the grounds that the ecclesiastical abstention doctrine did not apply to the defamation and false light claims so they wanted to say essentially that because this is an ecclesiastical setting they they're shielded from Having to take responsibility for whatever damages this individual has incurred because of their reporting and The trial court said no you can't do that The court found that these claims could be adjudicated without delving into religious doctrine.

35:13

So this isn't a matter of faith this is a matter of like, you know job and employment particularities

35:21

Despite the SBC's argument that the doctrine should protect them Preston Garner lost his employment at Everett Hills Baptist Church after the

35:27

SBC's credentials Committee sent a letter based on an anonymous tip alleging Garner had a history of abuse Specifically mentioning an old claim from another church.

35:35

The court also affirmed that Garner established a prima facie case for Defamation and false light allowing the case to proceed to trial

35:44

Additionally, the SBC's request for attorney fees was denied since the legal action was not dismissed

35:49

This case could indeed become costly for the SBC as many have anticipated. So what many have predicted about the

35:56

SBC trying to Handle their alleged abuse crisis the way that they're doing is coming to pass.

36:02

It's a mess and it's no surprise that they've already had to sell their main building that they're they're liquidating assets because these attorney fees will and are killing them and If you're in the

36:21

Southern Baptist Convention, there's really only one option and it basically it's to stop

36:27

This this whole thing needs to stop, you know, don't do this anonymous reporting of from a

36:35

Database that you can't affirm. It's from an anonymous source. I mean, this is crazy Don't in fact elect new leadership

36:43

You need people and I'm not saying anything against Clint Presley I don't know exactly where he stands on all this, but I just think you need leadership though that is going to aggressively fight this kind of thing

36:55

It's been a disaster for a long time they're caring well initiative that's that goes back to JD Greer was terrible it literally says in the material that the

37:04

SPC paid to have made that the standard of innocent until proven guilty is

37:12

That's in a legal setting but for Christians, we're supposed to love believes all things.

37:18

It literally says that and I know of churches where this has been a huge problem individual churches where this has just destroyed them because they chose to take these claims and You know treat them honestly in unbiblical ways because that's ripping the verse out of context from first Corinthians 13

37:39

It really has nothing to do that. It's not about legal Legally finding a burden of proof that is love believes all things

37:48

Is a part of a larger context describing how to use spiritual gifts in the context of the church and So it's ripping it out to put it in a more legal type of context and then to tell people well in a legal content

38:05

This is not an illegal contest is an ecclesiastical context Honestly, the government's given the sword

38:11

If someone's breaking the law if someone's violating and this is these laws are on the books if they're committing crimes

38:17

That's where you take this kind of stuff doesn't mean you don't handle things in the church as well when they're sin because it's also sin, but you have to If someone's actually abusing someone else you have to go through that process

38:31

So, yeah, I understand. There's all the objections about hey in my town Everything's corrupt and so we'll take that on a case -by -case the situations.

38:38

I know of that Mishandled this stuff weren't those situations But anyway getting back to the

38:44

SBC stuff So, you know, I posted on my ex account the whole Decision there

38:50

Rachel Den Hollander decides and she's one of the lawyers who has been I think probably more than anyone else front and center on this stuff trying to How would

39:03

I put it Convinced the SBC that they ought to Do what just happened in Tennessee?

39:11

And so she writes this thread and she says it has been almost six years and counting since several of us who work in this

39:17

Field repeatedly raised concerns. What field is that? legal field Field the grievance.

39:24

I don't We've raised concerns that you abuse. I mean, it's it's an industry at this point We've raised concerns to leaders that the lack of clear processes measurable benchmarks and standards and appropriate communication strategy within the credentials committee

39:36

Would create serious harm and again that you know, the credentials committee So there she wants the credentials committee to boot churches basically like they should have this oversight that the

39:46

SBC in the SBC to boot churches that don't meet us her standard on This and they haven't met it is what she's saying

39:57

And that it's creating serious harm the errors noted in the ruling from a few days ago Which I think I just read were entirely preventable

40:04

They were warned of directly sound alternatives were recommended repeatedly model systems used in other entities Recommended this is

40:12

She this is Rachel. I think wanting to ditch obviously actually she wants to distance herself from the effects the consequences of this decision

40:24

No, okay. So for attorneys who have experience Warned of these risks and urge adoption of clear measurable policies.

40:34

Okay. I'd love for to hear these clear Let's see the decision -makers left members of the credentials committee employees and survivors with a deeply broken system

40:43

Okay, so she keeps criticizing it the robust robust system necessary to prevent these errors and protect everyone involved was prevented

40:51

This this isn't evidence that abuse reform doesn't work. So she's saying don't draw the wrong conclusion

40:56

This is evidence that refusing to listen to us the experts basically that help design the system hurts everyone

41:02

So you you must keep listening to me if you listen to me, then all your problems would go away

41:07

I'm obviously she didn't say that I'm paraphrasing my interpretation of it All right, so Megan Basham responded this

41:17

Megan said Rachel you wanted to institute a public database that would label men abusers based on a preponderance of evidence standard that is a little more than Requires only better than a 50 % chance that the man was guilty and we talked about this that it's

41:36

This is part of the problem is changing The the evidence required the level of evidence required preponderance of evidence is not

41:47

The same as Beyond the shadow of a doubt this is different Okay, and this was none of the due process protections that come from our actual legal system

41:57

It didn't require an alleged victim to have filed charges. Let alone for a legal judgment to have been rendered against the accused

42:02

There was no way to execute such a thing without opening the convention up to such defamation suits

42:08

This was in essence that guideposts what the guideposts report did and what the credentials committee did in her ring of church to activists, so She wanted a lesser standard.

42:19

She got a lesser standard. She wanted a database she got something akin to a database and You know, it wasn't her way

42:27

I don't know what her way exactly is like what was it that would have prevented this but This is the problem.

42:33

I mean that I think Megan's clear here on what the issue is It is the same approach we have seen with title 9 on college campuses and it is bearing the exact same fruit as those title 9

42:42

Policies there's a place for victims to turn to justice and to ensure and abusers crimes who come public record.

42:47

It is our legal system and Here we have the icing on the cake from Boz Tavitian Boz Tavitian as you know his

42:59

Organization was the organization that crafted the caring well material back in JD Greer's day at the

43:06

SBC so there's like 2019 I suppose somewhere in there and Boz Tavitian This is a quote it literally this article starts with this cool

43:17

This well, this is a summation from the article But the journalist says the only solution for the

43:23

Southern Baptist Convention to solve its sexual abuse problems is to dismantle the denomination entirely

43:30

Kid you not According to Boz Tavitian one of the nation's best -known attorneys representing abuse survivors.

43:35

Well, that's great You know the Southern Baptist Convention pays you a lot of money and now you're saying you know what six years later or whatever it is you should just You should

43:45

Dismantle it they tried to put some band -aids on it And they were more concerned about public perception than anything when a denomination cares more about public perception than a person

43:53

They've lost focus on who Jesus is. Oh, that's that's really a great Low blow there.

43:58

So they don't that's the problem with the SBC leadership is they just don't care who Jesus is and They're not going to care about the abused people.

44:06

They're just not going far enough guys with this me too stuff Cuz they just they don't That they don't love Jesus enough.

44:11

They don't care about people. I mean this is Is there a worse accusation in Christianity This is true partially because of the way the

44:19

SBC is organized with autonomous churches But in addition to that there hasn't been focus of litigation on the

44:25

SBC itself. He said it's mostly been litigation on SBC churches I can tell you the day a court holds that the

44:31

SBC itself can be held liable for the abuses that occur within a church Or within one of the SBC ministries that will be a huge opportunity for survivors to step forward and begin holding

44:38

SBC financially accountable And maybe that will cause them to make some changes The SBC will claim every church is autonomous and that they have zero control until a woman becomes the pastor of a local church

44:49

Davidian is an outspoken advocate for speed. So let me just like give you maybe some parallel examples to make

44:57

May make you understand how? Ridiculous this is if you formed a group, let's say

45:05

I Don't know a neighborhood watch group or something right and you each have your homes, but you're you're united for one mission, right?

45:13

You you just you're gonna share resources or create a schedule to go and survey the neighborhood and make sure there's nothing bad happening

45:21

I don't know and let's say like something bad happened in one of the homes and You know, the police had to come let's say legitimately something bad happened which you know domestic abuse and You were held responsible for it because well you guys you're in common cause like you have a mission over here and you

45:39

You guys it was committed with a gun and you or whatever You guys all go to the gun range right to train for this other thing that you're doing this other

45:48

Like it would be so far outside the purposes of that organization. It would be like you're on your own man

45:54

Like we didn't agree to that. We're not taking responsibility for things outside of our purview Sure, we want to protect your home, but that it wasn't that didn't include we didn't

46:05

You know the terms weren't that we were gonna protect Everyone in the home from someone who's committing a domestic abuse in the home or something like that Like this was about other threats and sure we went to the range and sure we

46:18

You know encouraged gun ownership or whatever, but like, you know, you're on your own on that right?

46:24

Maybe that's not the best analogy but that's that's the first one that came to my mind like take any organization that you could have other member organizations or or even people and It's for a specific narrow purpose and that is the

46:39

SBC. The SBC is exists for a narrow purpose It's for missions. It's for theological training

46:46

Yes, you have these other entities that support those purposes like, you know in Retirement investing and things but these are it's to serve these two purposes really it's ministry related stuff

46:59

When you have a church and it's within the church It's outside of the purview of the organization and they have a real problem to hold the

47:07

SBC Responsible for that is to change the very nature of the SBC. It's to make it into a hierarchical organization that it was never meant to be and That's what you hear

47:19

Boz Davidian saying, you know, you you can't And if that happens the Golden Goose, it just gets bigger and that is what's happening.

47:27

That is That that is the process that the SBC is in right now and That's what has to stop and I'm hoping that cooler heads can prevail on these things

47:39

But it may be too late to be quite honest The SBC is in somewhat of a death spiral and it's still a lot of people though here's the thing even if they go completely bankrupt you still have a

47:49

Lot of people in the organization and I don't see I mean they've been bleeding people and bleeding churches

47:54

But I don't see that it changing as far as like it's still the largest Protestant denomination in the country There's still gonna be those people there, but these people don't need to be channeling their efforts into paying these lawyers fees they got together for one reason and that's ministry and The churches who don't practice these safe standards or have abusive

48:16

Pastors they're on their own. They need to bear the consequences for that. Not everyone else. I mean what you know by this logic

48:23

Why don't we just make it that? The United States government is responsible for the SBC churches

48:28

I mean, we won't really have the end of abuse until the government directly takes responsibility for everything that happens in the country why don't we just do that and achieve some kind of No collectivist

48:41

Ultimate collectivist solution to all of this. That's what I think right and if you don't agree with me You don't love

48:46

Jesus and you don't love people because we know that that's where all the resources are the collective resources of the country

48:52

I mean, how ridiculous does that sound? I mean, that's what you're hearing though so I will take some questions cries of outrage conundrums and concerns right now and then we will end the podcast because I'm pretty sure my wife just finished making a pot roast and I really need

49:08

I need it in my mouth That's really what I'm trying to say. All right, so What is this question

49:15

Oh Is Biden could should

49:20

Biden stand trial? Yeah, I don't I don't know. I don't know what to say about that I mean, is he even he's gonna you know what the defense is gonna be.

49:28

He's got an insanity defense at this point. I Don't see a lot of questions. Let's see.

49:34

Oh David David Morrill came in the SPC has never been willing to face the unjust accusations of the world that results

49:40

From insisting on biblical justice rather than giving into the demands of an abuse incorporated. That's a good way to put it abuse,

49:45

Incorporated David Morrill from protest EIA in the chat. He's actually very good on this kind of stuff

49:55

All right. Well, I see comments I don't see a lot of questions. So I think I'm just gonna Probably end the podcast and we'll go from there

50:03

But hey, I appreciate everyone who supports the podcast I want to say that I Will have on Tuesday a patreon only episode dropping

50:12

I'm gonna have so I split this like long two and a half hour episode into two parts and it's on Reconstruction in the

50:19

Civil War after the Civil War and that whole era so I want to I Want to let you know about that.

50:29

I'm gonna I've been toying with how to do this because those who don't want to be patrons You might want just access to that episode and maybe

50:36

I'll put a small fee or something But but that's gonna be dropping on Tuesday, and I'm gonna be doing more of this

50:42

Hopefully at least once a month. I want to do some special patron only content So for this month, that's the patron only content so you can look forward to that dropping on Tuesday I will not be at the inauguration and Most of you probably won't either because it's gonna be so cold so I got a free

50:58

Monday and I'm gonna see what I'm gonna do with it because I blocked off my schedule and everything else and So hopefully, you know, you have a good weekend.

51:07

I'm excited about mine. I guess that's why I'm saying it I don't know. I'm telling you all this but yeah, god bless and We I will see you next week.