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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And good afternoon, welcome to the dividing line, let me quote here

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The traditional Christian interpretation of this multitude falling to the ground has been upon hearing

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Jesus words I am he Greek eggo. I me this is John chapter 18 verses 5 and following a supernatural force

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Exuded from Jesus knocking them to the ground Some commentators have linked these words of Jesus of Jesus with Exodus 314

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Just as they have with those thrice repeated in John 8 For example, Ari Brown asserts regarding this text the

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Ohanian tradition I am serves virtually as a divine name with the power to cast him into the ground John 18 5

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Such an interpretation is both unnecessary and unwarranted Especially if our interpretation of the thrice repeated

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I am and John 8 is correct Rather the multitude was surprised when Jesus courageously went forth to meet his enemies

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JH Bernard puts it Well the men who came to make the arrest some of them some of whom at least did not previously know

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Jesus even by sight Were so overcome by his moral ascendancy that they recoiled in fear

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Indeed this episode alludes David's words in Psalm 27 to when evil doers come upon me to devour my flesh my adversaries and my enemies

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They stumbled and fell Accordingly those in the foreground started by Jesus bold response quickly drew back as they did they may have bumped into others behind them

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Causing me to stumble and fall. Perhaps it was like the three stooges Whether God resorts the use of supernatural power.

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He still caused his enemies to appear as stooges Well, those are the words of the man we now know as Kermit czar

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Lee retired professional golfer who has now announced the whole reason that he moved up the revelation of his identity

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Was because he has designed a new form of a book

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Yes, why did I end the contest almost two years prior to my announcement that it would end on September 29th 2011 the birthday of Both me and Michael Cervantes.

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It's because I have reinvented the book Not his book books in general

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No joke, it is now patent -pending and has a trademark triangle book because it has a built -in book stand

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That makes a triangle formation In about two weeks my book the restitution of Jesus Christ will be available in this format on this website for this and other reasons

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It was becoming reluctantly clear to me that in order to proceed with my plans for this invention I would have to divulge my anonymity as the author of this book.

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That's not divulging your anonymity You're divulging your identity not divulging your anonymity.

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I just thought would clear up that little Linguistic problem. So my plans are to try to license this book invention to publishers tomorrow

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I leave for New Orleans to attend the annual meeting of SPL I've been a member of this organization for the past 10 years.

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Yeah. Well every other heretic on the planet is to let me I'll begin showing my triangle book invention to publishers there

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I don't know if it will ever impact the trade book market But we think it will do so with certain hardback niche markets that benefit from the standalone function such as manuals gift books cookbooks and perhaps textbooks and Books containing heresy evidently more information about will be available soon on my new website triangle book calm

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So it was all promotion self -promotion, of course in the process well if you want to find out if a book is even semi

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Serious in dealing with the subject the deity of Christ go to John 18. That's the one

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I've found to be the best place to go Because folks think about it even

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Bart Ehrman knows That the gospel of John teaches the deity of Christ Even Bart Ehrman knows that now he says

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Matthew Mark and Luke don't but John does and that's contradiction And you know he cuts the

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New Testament apart, but even Bart Ehrman Coming from as far out in left field as he does can see yeah, come on people

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Gospel John it's clearly teaching the deity of Christ and So you look at?

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What Kermit czar Lee golf professional Says on this subject, and you you remembered hearing about old

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Kermit didn't you rich? Yeah, you heard about him on on the pro tour didn't you? On pages yes, it seems to be a long long time ago, but I somehow remember.

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You know news broadcasts You know sports stuff and the name Kermit czar

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Lee kind of stands out you know it does stand up Jack Nicklaus and You know go through all the different and then

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Carl Palmer Kermit czar Lee It does I'm not a golf fan.

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Sorry to those of you who are so don't confuse it I'm not okay. I just happened to you know they're going through the sports, and you know you have to listen to that too, okay?

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I it never never even crossed my mind. I Know and it didn't I would have absolutely positively no earthly idea of who anybody in golf was but be that as it may

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We look at Kermit czar Lee's book and remember. I he was very upset that I said this was spiral bound

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It's some other kind of binding. It's a metal thing see, but you notice. It's Sideways you can't you finding stuff in this next to impossible it's it's two pages per page on eight and a half by 11 bound together with a spiral thingy and he got upset because I Didn't use the exact terminology that I alleged.

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I supposed to use anyways Pages 373 374 as I said when

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I first got this book and Obviously this was a ploy to sell books Which I'm sure he did

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I'm sure he's moved ten times more books, and he ever would have otherwise in the process But when

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I first started looking at this I was struck that this it almost seemed to me like he had dug up Nelson Hurley stuff in the 1970s because if you've if you've done anything in this field for any period of time at all you've been there done that got the t -shirt and the spiral bound books and So one of one of the things that I've always

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That I have found to be very useful go to John 18, how do they deal with John 18 5 through 6

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Because the text is in fact very very clear And you have to you have to tear the gospel of John apart the soldiers are coming to arrest

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Jesus and In verse 4 so Jesus knowing all things that were coming upon him went forth and said to them whom do you seek

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I Guess that went forth All it is is exhale then he went out from where he was and Said to them who are you seeking?

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Oh, wow, that's a powerful thing Sorry, they answered him Jesus the Nazarene.

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He said to them ego. I me and Judas also is betraying him was standing with them

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So when he said to them ego I me They drew back and fell to the ground now

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If you allow John to be John if you follow I go I me through John 8

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John 13 and I was just looking at this beforehand. Let me I'm That's interesting

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Uh -huh, I noticed most of stuff's very old Very little interaction with with modern stuff.

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There is no reference here. I'm looking looking looking There's no attempt to deal with John 1319 here

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We've got 828 858 but nothing about John 1319

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Well Didn't look at my book obviously Because If you allow

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John to be John you follow a glide me through his gospel You see how it functions you see the citation of Isaiah 43 10

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Jesus by himself He uses the terminology himself of himself in John 1319 you get to John 18 5 to 6 the soldiers fall upon the ground

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That doesn't have anything to do with power exuding from Jesus it has to do with the pronunciation of what is in fact the divine name and they fall back upon the ground and This isn't because of some moral superiority

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Once you find a book and you see how it deals John 18 5 6 if it if it has to default back to The moral superiority argument then, you know, you're not dealing with anyone who's seriously dealing with the text at all you're just dealing with someone who has a

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Perspective and they're not gonna let the the text of the Bible get in the way of their perspective and that's what you've got with Kermit czar

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Lee aka Cervetus the Evangelical, so there you go.

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I even got mentioned in the announcement It says once I post the last clue on Monday, November 15th, which subtly indicated that golf was my favorite sport

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There was a flurry of guesses starting early Tuesday on Thursday morning, November 18th Steve Noel figured out who it was and told

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James White who then posted it on his website Do that post in the closing hours that day several dozen websites posted the same.

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Yes. Well That's how it works and we thank Steve for that The question still goes across my mind over and over again

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Scott McKnight. What were you doing? I Had been told at the very beginning that Scott McKnight knew who this person was evidently

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Scott McKnight is the president of the Kermit czar Lee What was it?

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has some lectures Somewhere and Scott McKnight is described as his good friend and So there is connection there but I would hope

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You know, I would hope rich if if you decide to go theologically crazy one day and yeah you what about me

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No, no, I'm the one doing the program did that you get inundated by so much garbage every single month,

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I mean I'm the one most likely to go off the air. All right, you're let me let me change the illustration in midstream, thank you very much if I went off and became a

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Sikha Buddha Muslim a Sikha Buddha Muslim Mormon witness.

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There you go. Sikha Buddha, but a Muslim Mormon witness See what I'm talking about people.

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There you go and And you knew that I had

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I don't think you'd be being my friend to keep my secret or what's worse,

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I don't think you would be the friend of the church of God of the gospel or anything else if you put friendship in Front of those things your priorities are all messed up now the only excuse that I can think of for Scott McKnight to know who this guy is know who's cranking out this this stuff attacking the deity of Christ and Not saying anything about it is

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Because he agrees with me That it's pretty much worthless and has been refuted so many times already

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That it's not even worth talking about on that level Maybe maybe that's his argumentation.

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I don't know. I don't know but I To do this kind of thing

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Make claims, you know, this is well, you know, I've got a doctorate. Well, I did that to throw you all off It's an honorary doctorate

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It was just given to him for writing some books and he's an instructor and called professor

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Well, that's because he wore some glasses and he's taught people golf So it's all meant to you know

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Deceive along those lines and what was the final goal sell books? Because let's face it this kind of stuff that is in this book is

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Is standard fair in all your mainline Liberal denominations. I mean there are there are seminaries there are

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United Methodist seminaries You could not teach there if you didn't already believe all this stuff. So it's nothing new. I mean, it's really 1800s liberalism primarily with a few few spins from the last century and So, there you go

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What was the other thing oh I I had also just before the program started had looked at he has a section on the crystal like that was the

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Christology of John and You know, it's a standard arguments on John 1 1 and John 8 58 standard

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Jehovah's Witness Christadelphian whatever type Arianism and So I looked at Hebrews because I thought hmm.

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He was chapter 1 And he dealt with Hebrews 1 6 and Hebrews 1 8 But not the identification of Jesus as Jehovah and Hebrews 1 10 through 12.

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Oops Now maybe it's someplace else. Like I said, there's not a scripture index. So good luck finding anything anyways, but And since it's all the pages are sideways.

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It's very difficult to scan the book You have to be holding it in a very awkward way and flipping pages and it's it's not a lot of fun

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So anyway So read as the evangelical is Kermit czar

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Lee and I would say to you if you want to go to Kermit czar Lee to learn Your short game your driver, you know, learn how to use your putter

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Whatever else it might be might be a good thing, but theology don't Think so don't think so 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 is the phone number and We've got some of our regular callers online today, don't we?

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Look over and go. Hey, I've seen those names before So, I guess we'll run through them here let's talk with we'll call you

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Bob, how's that? Well I'm not sure that that's a promotions, huh?

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That's more of an identification than anything else so What can we do for you

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Bob my first question is Why did you nearly wipe out your entire fan base right before the show with that ear piercing screech?

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I Have no idea what you're talking about Okay Anyway, I didn't hear anything rich rich rich has a feeling he knows what it was

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Yeah, somebody when they set up the recording software didn't put Push record up there.

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And so when who started all the software today you did. No, I didn't I didn't

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No, I Didn't I didn't fire it up In other words

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It wasn't him. It was never mind. So, okay now we know who that was

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So continue on please, okay My main question is about Iman Saeed Not I am specifically but debating very nice man, is that all you want to know

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I Need to give a shout out, but I don't know ignore the people in the channel

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Bob, okay, so Imam Saeed Made the statement.

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How can people before Jesus was saved? How can people before Jesus have been saved and you know, that's kind of a common

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Objection here, but it just struck me that Someone like him.

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I mean he comes across as a very nice fellow or and there are many other people that you know You might encounter who are who are

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Friendly and if you're in a debate with them, how do you express? That the opponent is ignorant of something without coming off as the bad guy or coming off as Arrogant.

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Well, I don't know since everyone thinks I'm the bad guy and arrogant anyways So obviously I'm the bad the worst person in the world to ask

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Because that's exactly what everybody says, but I don't think that you can avoid the conclusion the forming in the mind of the observant person that when one side is not prepared for the debate and the other side is that that that says something about the side that didn't prepare and It's amazing that in our society and I was just talking about this to some students back in the

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Midwest there And I you know Emphasize the fact that in our society today the greatest sin has become the sin of offense to dare to offend someone and so It there isn't any way

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To avoid a Person coming to conclusion that the person you're talking to was ignorant of the subject that they raised

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But you don't have to sit there and pound on it and and pound that into the ground

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That's that's where the difference is. You can I think very Through the questions that you ask

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Lay out your case and let the audience go Okay, you know one side seems to know what the other side's saying the other side doesn't seem to and so I need to take that into consideration in evaluating the arguments that are being presented but There's no way to avoid that if you're in a situation where the person that you're debating just is not aware of You know

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Christian responses or wherever else it might be you you have to bring those things out or You're in running the danger of compromising the gospel out of a fear of the face of men and a fear of Someone going.

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Oh, well, you know That guy you debated over there was such a nice guy, but you made him look bad Well, was it was it a matter of making someone look bad or was it a matter of someone not being familiar enough?

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With the subject to really be engaging in in the debate whatever happened to going well, you know you show respect for someone by knowing what they're gonna they're gonna believe now in Going to the specific situation that we were talking about in New York Imam Sayyid stepped in with like 10 days notice.

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So I don't think anyone hopefully would look at that and go Oh, that's just terrible blah blah blah.

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He should have been buried repair Hopefully no one would be thinking along those lines. I suppose there might some be some people who would but When someone steps in, you know on short notice like that that's completely different situation, but let's face it especially with liberals

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Nobody ever prepares to debate me No, and you would think they'd have plenty of information to Realize that's not really a good thing

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Just look at what happened to Peter Stravinskis who when he was contacted and initially to do the debate on purgatory back in 2001

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Asked who would I be debating and when he was told James White his response was that he's harmless and That that's what happens so You know,

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I don't know. It's a really an apologetic methodology question so much as it is Well, if you if you pound away at something too long

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Then it starts distracting people and it takes away from the power of the argument that you're making. So you for me,

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I sit there and go look a average intelligent person

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Who's listening and listening carefully now knows that I've established that point. Let's move on.

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That's You know that that's the difference someone else to just keep going after it. I'll move on to something else

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To do it respectfully you'd just be best just correcting it and then moving on and not not lingering on it, right?

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I mean unless it unless it's the the only point that the person has made or unless they're they're

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Behaving in such a way that they're never going to abandon it. I mean that could change things I mean if there are sometimes some people that just that's all they've got and they're gonna go to the grave defending it and that can that can change things, but Otherwise, no

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But you said We know what the Bible said in the 6th century and his response was see even

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James White Believed that the Bible wasn't complete until the 6th century. That's that's odd. No, no,

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I'm not Rashid, right? So I mean four times in a row that happened. Yes, that's true.

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And the The videos of that I am very thankful to announce we mentioned on Tuesday That we were going to try to raise the money to to get those

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London videos Ransomed and we have done so so we will be getting hold of those and making them available as soon as possible

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So, all right, Bob. Thanks for your call Make it real quick make it real quick.

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What exactly is seek Islam? See that is long. Yes seek

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Wait, I think No, no, no, no that other one. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry I don't know what that is.

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But you know, how does what is green taste, you know, I'm Thanks, Bob. I'll I'll mention that as we go along here.

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See you later, Bob. Okay Shia Islam huge subject that I am not

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Qualified to address it. I have a number of books on Shiism that I haven't gotten to yet I would love to because some of the

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Islamic apologists are Shia and There's you know,

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I mean, obviously I've read more than average bear. I just don't like to address something when I Can't give you a lot of specifics it it goes back to a difference in how the succession of Muhammad was viewed and it goes back to some well

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It's it's mainly political at the beginning quite honestly. I mean, it's people killing other people and All sort of things

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I got but it has led to A fascinating difference in Practice I have shown pictures of the

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Shia Muslims cutting their heads and bleeding on themselves in a ritual that they have much more of a leaning toward the concept of Sacrifice and atonement and things like that and it's interesting the theological differences that have basically had political

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Histories behind them but they also have imams and Imam a Shia imam is very different than a

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Sunni imam in the sense that you know The pastor of the local congregation would be an imam and amongst the

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Sunni the Shia you know you you think of the ayatollahs and the mullahs those those are people that almost have revelatory capacity in essence and of course, they're looking for the

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Mahdi and You've got 12 errs and seven errs and stuff like this is it's extremely complicated very very complicated

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And I that's why I just go. Yeah, we'll move on Excuse me, let's talk to Adam Adam Back, maybe

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I should come up with a different name. Let's we're gonna call you Charlie. How's that? Oh, man, yes, there you go

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Yes, sir, I Was listening to your series on Norman Geisler and I had a comment and I wanted to get your take on this.

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I'm I Don't know as much as I can say. I think there's some accuracy That maybe maybe

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I'm thinking of it. I'm listening to this. I I keep on hearing not necessarily I used to Jesus from dr.

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Geisler, but what is commonly called etic understandings of language Especially with regards to terms all men and world the the problem with especially

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Languages that you not only have words grammatical structure syntax and so it you've also got certain connotations and ideas that go with it for example

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One of my professors is Dutch and he told the story about how they used to Tell you in Holland will say a phrase the minister is coming

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Everyone turns around takes their hats off and so on and so forth and the American students think wow that's really respectful and the

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Dutch just laughs because it goes back to a time of war when the minister had to go off to battle and When he came back into the city, it was generally to tell someone that their loved one was dead

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So everyone was quiet. They took their hats off to see who it was. Hmm, and so there's a different understanding it seems to me like What My professor who doesn't mean was that dr.

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Van Gammon Willem van Gammon, and he's a linguist as well as as well as an exegete and he says that that It's one of the main problems with Evangelical exegesis today is that it does not speak to what he calls enter the world of the text

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He says what often happens is you look at a text from your world and you understand words and phrases from your world in your vantage point where You have to start looking for patterns in the text different collocations of words being how certain ideas are presented throughout the text and Not just in one place.

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It is basically is understanding the Bible as a whole And I think what's going on is just an observation with dr.

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Geisler and with those like him as they look at phrases like all men world and in a universalistic sense like we use them in English and He's taking that etic understanding of the text

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That I think understanding of those phrases and he's in essence Reading these first century documents and if you want to go to the

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Hebrew Bible, he's these ancient documents from the perspective of his own

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Linguistic world you might say or his own is that consigned with a language game and I do agree with dr.

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Van Gemma that it seems like that's a major problem when it comes to Evangelical exegesis a is it it doesn't speak to really enter into the text itself and Really grow

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I see sometimes I can see a sermon from somebody I can predict every single point They're going to make because I've already heard them preach a sermon on that five years ago

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It doesn't seem like there's any real entering into the world of the text to try to understand the text

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From its own perspective from its own linguistic world Understand the different connotations and ideas that are presented by various texts.

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Yeah, it takes a long time Hey, dr. Van Gemma and told us will probably spend the rest of our lives and still not understand it completely well, that's why that's why you need to listen to Harold camping because once you once you hear

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Harold Harold would tell you you've completely missed everything because That book in Daniel 12 is the

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Bible and it's been opened and If you just added the numbers up, right, you wouldn't be having to be in seminary at all

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Right and besides that are you going to be out by May 21st of 2011?

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The way I view Harold camping is Just as the ultimate example of what

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I'm talking about, of course you know where you where you have these whole numerology stuff and it just it just it just ends up being

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It ends up becoming a mess It ends up becoming whatever Harold camping season. It's it's a it's a the

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Bible becomes a big Rorschach blot You know the blot test where what do you see in this?

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And well, I see that well, that's that's Harold camping and that's how he uses the Bible and it just becomes theological silly putty in his hands and he can form in any way he wants to and it's much less that case with Norman Geisler, but you're exactly right when he says world the very fact that he can just sit there and assume that his

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American evangelical audience most of whom have never done serious biblical study are just gonna buy into his use

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Demonstrates that yep, he's walking lockstep with them along those lines and no, he's not entering into the meaning of the

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Original languages as they were used how the how the author would have intended how the audience would have heard these words

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No doesn't doesn't doesn't matter. That's that's that's not going to get you anywhere That's that's not gonna get you nearly as many invitations to speak either just so just so you know

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Getting really getting invitations to speak. I guess what I'm more concerned about is just the pursuit of truth

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I mean, it's it but even even if you only have a small flock of congregation

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You know if you can mentor them and disciple them so that you know, eventually they themselves can start down this journey

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Really, you know help them along to see this. I think that you know, maybe one or two is is

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Far better than than all the rest of the stuff in it. I don't know what it is. I agree.

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I agree Adam I you're you're preaching the choir now. I agree a thousand percent. You're right.

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That is exactly what dr Geisler is doing and unfortunately, it is time for our break. So thanks for your call.

32:20

I'm okay. All right. Thanks a lot Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

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We're gonna take our break beer right back beer right back

32:32

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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Hello everyone.

35:00

This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered Self -help program the need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater

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I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin

35:17

Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

35:24

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior We are to come before the

35:34

Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

35:44

Support Alpha and Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

35:49

Thank you And Little slow like we said we still need to get that new one to keep the dividing line going

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Well, I have to remind everybody about that Anyhow, hey speaking of that you should mention the update on the videos

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Which I did while I was talking with one of the people previously while you weren't nothing

36:23

Tied up with the car Actually, I think you walked out Take care of a lot of things over here.

36:33

Yeah, it's a busy day. I Understand I understand But yes, we did we did get the money to get the

36:40

London videos and so we should have them Available as soon as well as soon as they can get here.

36:45

I suppose I've already Written and said we got it. How can we get them? So that'll be that'll be exciting.

36:52

Anyway, let's Clear the boards because I do have something I want to play So let's talk with Gus I guess

37:00

Hello. Hello. Hey, dr. Wright. I had a question about the Nephilim and Genesis 6

37:07

Okay I have no particular view but I was talking with a friend the other day and he was implying that the angels

37:14

I guess had intercourse with the daughters of man and my question was just If that was the case and the flood happened and destroyed all of them.

37:23

He's saying that men such as Goliath were Relatives, but how could that be if they were all destroyed in the flood?

37:31

I Have no earthly idea the two theories that have been put forward

37:38

One being the sons of God are the godly line of Seth and that that's what it's talking about the other that a lot of people mock and deride, but I think

37:54

Can't be dismissed in light of The commentary in Jude and 2nd

38:00

Peter has to do with angels that did not keep their first estate So since a number of people including

38:10

John MacArthur and Kenneth Wiest and some others Have held that perspective. I would be very hesitant to join with the many who just go

38:19

It's just that's just ridiculous anybody believes that's a moron and blah blah blah You got you got to explain the the 2nd

38:26

Peter in Jude text if you're if you're gonna do that, but I Don't know that we can answer that question in in any meaningful fashion.

38:37

There is one verse in Genesis 6 4 and There's no expansion upon the subject to to give you any background or or anything along those lines other than mighty men of of old men of renown and Beyond that, you know, there's the possibility that that's what

38:58

Jude and 2nd Peter is talking about but others would see that in a different way and would see the angels in reference to a

39:06

Different act of rebellion from the Old Testament or something like that, but I'll be pretty honest with you It's not something

39:11

I spend a whole lot of time on Yeah, that was more of a minor question I really just want to know your point of view but my other question is

39:18

I recently embraced the doctrines of grace and I held the position I guess of Norman Chrysler involved with the

39:26

Calvary Chapel movement and Now I'm just wondering I mean the doctrines of grace are really dear to me and like even just thinking about him

39:34

Makes me we makes me happy and I'm wondering now in fellowship with all kinds of brethren and even hearing an

39:41

Ergen Canor sermon he did at Calvary Chapel Golden Springs recently the implication of things such as the doctrines of grace shouldn't matter

39:51

We should get over our differences and just preach the gospel. I'm thinking to myself like How how you know?

39:58

Important, but where is the dividing line is my question? It's right here. You're on the program right now

40:06

I Know I know You and they tell you well, you're just being too doctrinal you're being too dogmatic on things that aren't clear

40:16

But I mean and they're the ones who are being doctrinal and dogmatic as well And they just don't see it because they're taking

40:23

Arminianism as the default position. I I know it is Obviously when you come to understand

40:32

The sovereignty of God the holiness of God the power of God in The gospel and others are still holding to a more man -centered

40:44

Perspective it is very easy to go Look, if you can't see this then you just you just must not even really be a believer at all

40:53

And that's that is a danger. I'm not saying you're going there, but I've seen people who have In fact we talk about the first few months and years after discovering the traditions of men that are often

41:08

Out there that sort of masquerade and and mask over the the glory of God We we frequently refer that as the cage stage

41:18

Where it would be better if you were locked in a cage so that you don't injure yourself or others because of the excitement and you you have seen it's sort of like when

41:32

I read the holiness of God Baracy Sproul and I was just you know overwhelmed with this sense of God's holiness and his power and his transcendence and and yet his

41:42

Condescension in the gospel and it's just you know, I want everyone else to have the same

41:49

Excitement and passion and zeal that I do but the fact the matter is A lot of times they don't and it's very easy to slip into an attitude where you're like, yeah well you know if you were as spiritual as me you would you know, and or how can't you see these things and But you got to remember two years before you saw those things were you unsaved and if someone else had come along and and and you know

42:19

And if you ended up behaving toward them the way you might want to behave toward others might that not have pushed off you're coming to understand these things because of Unnecessary offense that's also so we really have to be

42:31

I think very careful at that point in how we respond to those folks and Draw the dividing line on that matter in love and what

42:41

I mean by that is Most of people that I know we had a guy come into channel

42:47

Tuesday during the dividing line actually came in right before the dividing line and In channel, he was basically saying

42:54

Norman Geisler is a lost heretic. He needs to be saved he's obviously never been saved and It was a little bit distracting to me because I didn't have time to deal with him

43:03

But everybody else was dealing with him during the during the program and then afterwards for quite some time

43:08

Eventually, he determined that we were all lost because we wouldn't agree with him and you know dismissed us all as being lost

43:16

And he's snuck in a couple times To cause problems since then but that kind of an attitude is out there and it is

43:25

You know, I don't judge people's hearts along those lines. I have obviously I Think demonstrated that I'm willing to respond to the errors of Norman Geisler on these subjects but hopefully

43:40

I've modeled a Respect for the man the fact that he's written some great stuff

43:45

In fact, one of the reasons I've focused upon him is because I hold him to a higher standard I mean, I hold him to a much higher standard.

43:51

I do Dave Hunt. I mean Norm has His general induction of the Bible is a great resource.

43:58

He's done good work on the resurrection and things like that So that's why I hold him to a higher standard is you know, why aren't you seeing these things?

44:06

Why don't you see how your own traditions are getting in the way here? Just like Adam was just talking about in the previous call.

44:12

So But I'm not I'm not kicking these people out of the kingdom. I will refute

44:18

Their teachings and I will warn people. This is a sub biblical perspective.

44:24

This is a sub biblical Presentation that is being made here but I think we have to distinguish between the person and their traditions

44:35

And the sub biblical nature of these things and we have to allow the Spirit of God the freedom to Open our eyes and our minds at his chosen point and not at my chosen point

44:47

And since God's done it for you and me, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's time for all of those human traditions to be done away with with other people because as You probably would testify.

44:59

It's a world -shaking thing It changes how you view God it changes how you view yourself it changes how you view others it changes how you view the church worship the whole nine yards and so That's got to be left in God's hands.

45:13

So You know, some people would say I'm a compromiser that I don't think I'm compromising at all if anyone could look at me and say

45:19

I've been willing to compromise the doctrines of grace given the the Constant attack that I'm under for defending the doctrines of grace and how many doors have been slammed in my face

45:29

You know, they would love to have me to talk about Islam or they'd love to have me to talk about the King James Only thing they love to have me to talk about Roman Catholicism, but just such a shame.

45:39

You're a Calvinist. Okay, you know I've obviously been willing to stand up for what

45:45

I believe on those matters, but the same time I try to model a sense of Recognizing that this is this is something

45:55

God does when he changes someone's heart and I have I've seen a lot of people come to know the doctrines of grace

46:04

Because I presented them to them biblically and didn't just cram it down their throats and I think that's the only way it really

46:11

Happens is that the Spirit of God makes it to come alive in someone's heart Thank you. All righty

46:16

Yeah, thanks. Okay. Thanks guys. God bless Alrighty I was writing

46:24

Yesterday Something I do a lot and I was listening to Michael Brown and Obviously if we're gonna be doing a debate down the road someplace

46:36

I'm gonna be listening and Following what Michael Brown says and I thought it'd be very interesting to hear when

46:43

Michael Brown was on the unbelievable radio program with Justin Briarlee since we've both been on the same program there in the UK and He was on with Rabbi Shmuley Botech Boteach Boteach, I think is how you say last name and I guess

47:01

Michael and Shmuley had been doing some debates there in London and so they were on the unbelievable radio program and It was very interesting because I was

47:13

I was taken aback at how consistent the arguments

47:20

Against the deity of Christ are by people coming from completely different perspectives his arguments were identical to those of the

47:28

Muslims and identical to those of most Aryans and Partook of the same errors

47:38

Especially his history in regards to the Council of Nicaea and Constantine Guess who came up with the

47:45

Trinity again, it is absolutely amazing. Here is a Jewish rabbi now what

47:52

I Don't fully understand is it seems and I haven't asked dr.

47:57

Brown about this I'm sure he'd be happy to inform me But it seems like this was nowhere near the first time that the the rabbi and Michael have gotten together

48:07

In fact, he described him as a good friend after many years of dialogue so and Michael himself expressed his

48:18

Not so much disappointment, but he basically said it's it's a sad thing that after all these years

48:25

Shmuley still doesn't get it and he continues to misrepresent Christianity Why is that and when you know what it reminded me of if you've watched the video that I posted on YouTube of my

48:43

Dialogue recently in New York when Imam Sayyid Got up toward the end of the debate

48:50

He very clearly made the statement Well, dr. White has has presented nothing

48:56

That I have found to be compelling whatsoever Nothing that I've found to be compelling and you're just like But I had presented all sorts of stuff that had gone completely unanswered

49:15

So, let's listen to some of what Happened on the unbelievable radio program. I like to comment on it

49:20

Correct. They believe that humans are God, correct? That's what a pagan is Zeus was

49:26

God or Jupiter or Paul exactly totally contrary to the New Testament Paul comes and says well actually his name was

49:32

Jesus and he was a man who was God Where does Paul say that by the way? Well, it's it's it's what you believe.

49:38

I'm just asking where Paul said Well, but I'm asking you said that Jesus are you saying that Paul denies the divinity of Christ?

49:43

I just asked you since you've been saying that Paul changed everything. Please give me chapter where Paul says

49:49

Jesus is God I'm just curious. Well, you know where Jesus calls himself the Son of Man. That's one of the titles

49:55

Which well, we'll be back to Daniel I Mean are you saying she really that in the

50:02

Gospels now, let me stop right there for a moment Because that was a point that she only had made before was it

50:09

Son of Man not Son of God Son of Man just simply is a standard title that even

50:15

Ezekiel used himself. Well, that's true But that's clearly not how

50:21

Jesus was using it of himself All you got to do is go to Mark chapter 14 and he was sort of praising the the synoptic

50:28

Gospels so why not go to Mark chapter 14 as Michael had just mentioned here. And by the way, it was encouraging to me, especially since this is

50:37

Michael's area of expertise That his responses and my responses

50:44

To almost everything that the rabbi said we're almost identical I mean

50:49

I was thinking of them my head as I'm hearing him speaking them. That's when you do what I do That's what you do. Okay, well

50:56

You see me riding by on a bike. I may not be going all that fast I'm not going all that slow, but I'm not made up.

51:02

I'm not going as fast as I used to let's put it that way But if I don't acknowledge you or don't seem to see you it's because I am listening and I am debating and I am memorizing and I am preparing as I'm whipping along and so I'd hear

51:16

Shmuley doing his thing I go I'd respond this way this way this way and then Michael Brown would come back and Almost always it was the exact same things.

51:24

I would have says that was encouraging because like I said, this is his area but Daniel 14

51:31

Very clearly Jesus uses son of man Coming from Daniel 7 and the

51:37

Jews recognize that why doesn't Shmuley? Recognize that today Why did his forefathers recognize

51:44

Jesus used but he does Sense of Jesus being divine is simply not there as it is in the writings of Paul, correct

51:50

In fact, it was really the Council of Nicaea that the divinity of Jesus was established but my point is when

51:55

Mike says when Mike says that Well, they quashed the Aryan heresy by saying that Jesus wasn't even subordinate to God But he was co -equal with God of the same substance

52:05

But when Mike says that the Gentiles were lost and they lived in darkness It was primarily because of their paganism and how they would deify human beings and Judaism came along in order

52:14

To say once and for all that God is transcendent that God is so infinite. He can never be contained in the flesh of man

52:21

So that's why do you that's why Jews have never embraced Christianity because they will never accept it's like a regression almost to so here you had the

52:30

The paganism stuff, you know This view of Jesus as God and Michael tried to get him to admit that basically what he was saying

52:39

Was that God ceased being God and became a man? He was trying to demonstrate that Shmuley does not understand the difference between a a

52:47

Zeus taking on physical form and the incarnation But Shmuley just wouldn't wouldn't go there

52:56

I'm gonna find some more of this and next time around and we'll play it But we do have one more call that we'd like to try to sneak in before the end of the program

53:03

Let's talk with Michael. Hi Michael. Oh, hello. Dr. White. Hi Yeah, I spoke to you back in August had a pretty good talk on Mary and I wanted to follow up on that Are you familiar with Michael Shermer the skeptic

53:21

I am familiar with his name. Yeah He's got a book called why people believe weird things

53:29

And in it, he has a chapter critiquing. Dr. Frank Tipler the Templeton Prize winner.

53:35

Uh -huh, and he's describing Tipler's position and One of the things he describes is is

53:42

Tipler's belief that Man's going to evolve Supercomputers in the future that are powerful enough to basically resurrect every person that's ever inhabited every corner of the universe and who's ever lived and And when he describes this

54:03

Viewpoint of dr. Tipler of the supercomputer. He says that This number is finite and so the computer will be powerful enough

54:12

The number of human beings that it has to resurrect in some kind of virtual reality

54:20

And When I spoke to you last time about Mary, I said that Mary hearing a finite number of prayers

54:29

Doesn't necessarily require an infinite power, but merely a finite power up to the task and that God is powerful enough

54:39

To endow a creature with power at this level Yeah, and I had to point out that the hearing prayers is something that God does because it's an act of worship and that there is nothing in Scripture that even begins to suggest that it would be something that would glorify

55:00

God to endow a creature with the ability to hear a Large number of prayers on the part of people not sure what that has to do with supercomputers, but I Think you would agree with Michael Shermer that The operation this this ostensible future computer is doing is a finite operation

55:30

But Michael I don't care if it's a finite number of prayers that Mary's receiving

55:36

Mary doesn't hear prayers because prayers are an Act of worship, and that's idolatry

55:41

Okay, so it's a matter of dealing with what divine revelation says not

55:46

Michael Shermer's criticism of the Templeton prize -winner dude about Resurrecting people in a virtual reality world with the supercomputer

55:56

The last time I talked to you You seem to equate You know what

56:02

I said that Mary's ability and Catholic theology. Okay.

56:08

She hears billions of prayers simultaneously I said that God's powerful enough to endow a creature with that God's powerful enough to anything he wants

56:16

Michael the question is does the Bible give us any Reason to overthrow its plain teachings on worship the nature of God prayer and what a creature can and cannot do

56:28

Said to say well, it's possible. God could do anything he wants. Well, you know

56:33

The Enterprise could come and beam me up any moment, too. That's not the point

56:38

That's not what Christian theologians are supposed to be talking about Let me finish

56:45

I Understand your point. I'm trying to address another point That you made the last time

56:51

I talked to you when I said that God's powerful enough to make a Catholic Mary You said come to the effect at all then, you know, you might as well say he can give a creature the power to create out of nothing and But I think you would admit

57:08

With Shermer that the supercomputer is is finite Even though it's performing a far greater operation than the

57:16

Catholic Mary in terms of numbers and in terms of what it's actually doing Okay.

57:21

All right. Thank you Michael for your your phone call today on the subject of Mary and supercomputers

57:32

So Okay, they're Go and I stopped the shmooly stuff for that.

57:42

Oh, brother Should have should have kept going there see what I get for trying to be such a nice guy.

57:48

We go from from Professional golfers who turn into Arianism all the way to the end of the program with supercomputers and Michael Shermer and Mary and Hey, if Michael Shermer helps you to believe in Mary you

58:07

You go for it, what can I say? All righty. Well, Lord willing we will be back again on Tuesday I might be moving a little bit slowly come

58:19

Tuesday because Saturday is el tour de Tucson me and about 9 ,000 other crazed cyclists are gonna ride all around Tucson and I get to do that every year and it's very enjoyable.

58:31

So maybe we'll see a couple you down there If not, we'll see the rest of you on Tuesday here on the dividing line The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:33

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