The Theology of the Free Speech Apocalypse

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So, uh, which way do you would Everywhere there are places you don't even look

00:10

So what's what's wrong with you guys, I mean that's a I mean the first question or that's the first question

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What's what's wrong with you guys in our heads while babies? I blame him No, okay.

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So you we were talking you just talking about the fact that you you have You know media that will go after so many things conservative issues,

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I mean even touch abortion They may even kind of talk about the the Planned Parenthood videos

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But you tell you actually talked about what's going on with sexuality in America.

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Yeah, he did it in a pretty aggressive way So what's what's wrong with you? Why would you do something like that? Right, yeah, no

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This this this a Christian show, so I mean, I mean, I'll just get deep You know I was I was I was talking with someone who had kind of asked me some of the same questions about free speech

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Apocalypse and they had said why this fight right now? Why do you want to go after?

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this, you know and And it got to a point where the person said man, we just we got to stay focused on the gospel

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We got to stay focused on the gospel I think what you're doing is picking a fight and your tone is not very gospel centered

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And this is someone who actually really respected so I didn't just start flailing around an argument

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I said If you want to look at the gospel and Doug it probably was better than me and he might disagree because He'll be smarter in this category, but the gospel

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If we look at the gospel and take a historical whatever all the words you want to put to how you read the

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Bible Grammatical historical whatever blah blah blah, whatever the the gospel came at a time

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When it was in direct opposition to a particular thing So all the wording in the

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New Testament About Jesus and who he is is in direct opposition to who everyone said

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Caesar was Right. So Caesar is Lord. You you've even got things

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I don't think it's controversial to say you you you even have statements prior to Jesus being born about Caesar that are almost identical

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So it appears to me God is going right after Who everyone said Caesar was and really how the how the world treated?

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its gods And so you had to did that you you had to deny

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Caesar, right and it's all loaded in that it's Caesar It's the gods. It's all this and Jesus is the one true

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God. Well Today There is no

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Caesar in the sense that it was in the New Testament but there's always a God of the age and The God of the age right now is all is all packed around sexuality.

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It's all packed around Tolerance diversity and that and that's all just language for you need to be able to serve a goddess as you can have sex with Anything anyone whether it's dogs cats same -sex robots, whatever, you know

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And you're not kidding when you say that that's no that's not an exaggeration. Oh, no Yeah, that's for real.

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No, not at all. So yeah, so, um, that's that's where we are at. Yeah, and so for me I was like well

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If I'm gonna stay gospel centered Yeah And I wanted to make it all about the gospel Then right now the way

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I stay gospel centered in today's culture is going after Like if if this is my time of acts

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Then I want to go after the God that everyone's worshiping Right and everyone's worshiping this

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God of you know it's it's a false God love means this tolerance means this diversity means this and and and sex is right at the core of it and So I went after it because it really is to me.

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This is the gospel defining issue right now Okay, there's to add on to that I would agree with everything that was just said and in the in the

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New Testament The proclamation of the gospel always comes in two steps repent and believe right, right?

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Well in order to say repent and believe someone in the crowds gonna say repent of what? Yeah. What do you mean?

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Repent? What it means to turn away to change your mind to be done with well

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We need a direct object be done with what so you can't preach the gospel Which tells people to walk toward Christ without simultaneously calling them to walk away from something else

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Yeah, and that's something else that they must walk away from is in our generation in our era sexual libertinism sexual libertarianism, so and this is the hard part because Preaching the gospel does not just mean telling them to repent of those sins that they know and acknowledge to be false

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But it also means proclaiming to them Repentance from things that they thought were their virtues

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Right, that's where the love tolerance tolerance love acceptance, etc. I'm not mean like you guys are mean so if some if I were talking to a non -believer and they and they believe they've got a

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Gambling addiction or they they drink themselves into a stupor every night. Yeah Even today even in this era people know that that's a problem

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Right. Yeah, and they might want to turn to Jesus to help them with their problem And so you're telling them to well, no, it's not a disease

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It's a sin and you must repent of it, but at least they're with you halfway. I'd like to get rid of this thing

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The the the the world's not working out for them, right? And they can see that and experience that right and we're a long way away from that recognition with regard to the orgiastic

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Approach to sexual sex and and sexual issues. So when people say why are you picking that fight?

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Why don't we emphasize the gospel? They're saying they want a gospel that does not Does not go after sin that does not deal with sin that does not name sin

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But Jesus died for sin and he died died for sin Adam sin and he died for particular sins and you can't be faithful to the gospels without with without Going where they're defending their right to not be repentant.

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Yeah so It's and that's those are powerful points and I think what's interesting is that here we are now, it's 2015 almost 2016

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It's Christmas time and you just released a film and we're actually watching things on a screen that If you could take what was on that screen, right?

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Put it like, you know Take a computer back during the time of the Puritans, right? And you could you could go up YouTube and show them what we were gonna be facing and nobody would believe it

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Look like look look what actually is happening. I don't think two years ago Yeah in a short space of time in 50 years ago 60 years ago that we'd actually

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I mean there's videos you can see the public service announcements about regarding Homosexuality from the 50s that you know, they saw it as a very very serious issue

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And here we are with in such a short period of time. We're facing it in such a way that it's just embraced.

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So So you guys did a did a film about it and you come after it and there's something there's another element to it

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It's not just God identifies this as a sin and they say no it's not underneath that is their claim

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Their postmodern claim to be able to be able to rename the world yeah, but they want the authority to say that anything can be anything else and That is a claim to their aspiring to deity yeah, and and and so the

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Christians who challenge that are going to be the Christians who are in trouble, right and the Christians who want to stay out of trouble are the ones who know that you must not

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Challenge that right So, how do we get here though? Because we're I mean

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Knowing history knowing what the Christians believe that came over to this nation knowing what?

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Affected the culture was just sort of in the atmosphere. Right? Right. And so what what happened? I know there's lots of answers, but lots of lots of answers.

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But the the fundamental one Schofield Bible Yeah Wrong That's a symptom.

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That's a symptom, but it's a closer related thing. It's the myth of neutrality

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Okay, right. So what began in the founding era as hey, let's not get into denominational distinctives

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Okay, right. Let's not let's not have a national church. We won't have a Church of the United States Because at the time of the

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Constitution was adopted nine of the thirteen colonies had state churches Right, you had the

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Anglicans here and the Congregationalists here You know So you had state churches and so we didn't want a church at the federal level because if you have a state flower or a state bird that doesn't cause wars if The national government adopts a different flower and a different bird, right, but if you have a state state approved denomination of Christians and The federal government has a different one.

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You're setting yourself up for conflict Okay, so they said we will not have a Church of the United States in the

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First Amendment We will not have a Church of the United States the way there's a Church of Denmark and a Church of England and hold on this is really weird because Because the way that I was taught in my training was that no established

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Religion meant that God stays out of all of our affairs like I can't bring that in right and and that is that was part

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Of the sleight of hand right got us where we are. Yeah, because they have said what they're saying is Separation of church and state.

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Yeah, which I don't have a problem with right neither. Yeah, right In fact, I would say that that's a

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Christian development. That's right. So There was in I think was in North Carolina in the colonial era

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They had a there was a law that if you were an elected, right? You could not be a minister or an ordained minister and be an elected

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Representative right right because of separation church and state but in order to hold office you had to be a baptized

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Trinitarian Christian, all right, so all office holders had to be Christians But they couldn't be representatives of another government.

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The you just couldn't be a really smart Christian Really studied. Yeah. No, you couldn't be a

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Christian who had been set apart to another task. That's right. Okay, right so So you had when you're separating governments church and state great but that's not the same thing as separation of morality and state or Separation of right and wrong and state or separation of God and state though That's a come so that's a completely different issue, right?

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And so what we did is we moved from the federal establishment of Denominational neutrality.

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Yeah, Muslims were not a factor. There were a handful of Jews You know that the most the most extreme outlying group were the

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Quakers, right? Right So that was that was as far out as it went and so the federal government said we're gonna be neutral on denominational distinctives okay, and That gradually morphed when we weren't paying attention.

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We weren't paying the kind of attention. We should have been paying into Anything that has any religious motivation at all is not welcome in any way in the public square.

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You must shut up Yeah, right If if you're a Christian appealing to scripture, you know, and and that's how we got that's how we got gamed

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Right and and it really was I've won it. Is there a move there? We we we got gamed there.

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But what was Is there an example of what the move was? Yeah, well the movie is to say what they what they did is they said do you guys agree to denominational neutrality at the federal?

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Level and we said yeah, that's a good idea And it was okay, and then they changed its equivocation.

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They changed the terms. So what was denominational? Neutrality turned into religious neutrality turned into worldview

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Neutrality turned into morality neutrality. Mm -hmm. So so everything reduces now to Christians must shut up That's the conclusion of every argument

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Christians have to shut up because if you don't you're trying to Bring in your theocracy.

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I'm getting sidetracked in a good way because this is what I think is Classic and enjoyable

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Doug Wilson because a Lot of things that I see you get in trouble for Are are things that Pete that people look at you and go what

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Doug? that little issue just Do this or just roll over just do that, but it's not even a rollover denominational it's just denominational and it seems like those are kind of things where You're you're always looking to see

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Where does that little thing that everyone seems to be asking for? How is that actually going to be used down the road?

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And this is one of those things like in history It seemed like no one did that because they thought this would be a great way to Just to destroy our country.

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They thought it was a good idea They thought it was a good idea and a lot of the people who did it did it in good conscience

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I think they should have locked a few more doors Anticipated a few more right, right. Yeah, but I think it was well intentioned

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But you always have to be thinking three chess moves ahead, right? All right If you believe that we're in a spiritual war as I do you you can't assume that you're gonna do this and then everybody's just It's gonna stay that way.

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Nothing stays put and so what they what they do what they say is

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Denominational neutrality and I would have said knowing what I know now I would have said that sounds great

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Let's not have a church of the United States Let's let's have the established churches be at the state level and let's simply put a

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Clause in the Constitution acknowledging the universal Lordship in Jesus Christ. There you go. Okay Yeah, you know so That would have rescued so much because then you would have had a reference point correct

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That's the that's the whole point is that is the way the way that it sits you don't have a reference point There's no ultimate authority to finally stop that and go because him right right and and and now it's well because us

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Right, and it's what we say and there's no and that would have rescued so much just to simply point to Jesus Which is what they were already doing on so many other levels and and the

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Christians for To give them a fair shake managed to hold it together. I would say for 150 years basically, okay where America was a

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Christian nation. It had an informal establishment of religion, so The Christianity was acknowledged as the faith of the nation

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Idaho was not admitted to the Union until they ditched celestial marriage because that's not not in keeping with Christian values and and so the the move

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The the move that has got us to are the rabid secularism that we're dealing with now is a move that has happened within my

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Lifetime and it and they're they're in the full court press now They're at the they're in a frenzy now insisting on it demanding demanding it, but the pieces have been been arranged for Scores of years.

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Yeah okay, so There was one part of the film that I knew

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I knew what was happening When it happened and it when it when it when it was put in the film I thought that's perfect like I get it and I'm so glad that you guys went there and it was it was interesting because You know as we promoted the film with Apologia TV and all of our listeners worldwide and everything else

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People were loving loving it got a lot of good reviews, but we did have questions What was the part about slavery like what was that situation just thrown in and it was interesting because when it happened

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I go Exactly right like that was so important to have in there Can you so someone says they're confused though Doug like why why'd you guys talk about that?

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Why does it need to be in the film? Why was that such a big issue, right? Okay, so talk about so this this is a basic street -level apologetics.

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Okay. All right This is very simple. If you find yourself in a discussion with any non -believer today about homosexual issues and They say do you are do you mean to say that?

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Homosexual marriage should not be allowed by the law Same -sex mirage should not be allowed by the law because God said to Moses on Mount Sinai You shall not yeah, and I would say yeah, right

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Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying and they and they will say but God said other things to Moses Okay, so within 10 minutes whether you want to or not, you're gonna be talking about slavery

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All right within 10 minutes. They're gonna say but the Old Testament allowed for slavery The Old Testament prohibited clam chowder the

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Old Testament prohibited bacon, which is a We've all wrestled through Marcus doesn't anymore, but Two slabs of bacon this morning.

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Yeah, so yeah, so there's at least a prima facie case for them there, but I papered a pig but with oysters no

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So amen, so you have this? They'll say Moses said other stuff the

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Bible says other stuff Okay, and this is like I said three chess moves that moves ahead

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Yeah, if you're talking to someone about the sinfulness of the homosexual lifestyle They will say the

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Bible is not to be trusted as a guide for morality because Moses said that slaves slaves could be owned under these conditions and it doesn't matter how humane it is

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Right and the Apostle Paul returned onesimus to To Philemon and he tells in Ephesians He tells the slaves to work hard for their masters

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And you know, it doesn't matter that he tells the masters to be humane to the slaves But they're right in the Bible now as soon as they make that move then

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Conservative evangelical Christians start playing the that was then this is now game

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Yeah, and as soon as you start playing that was then this is now they've got you Mm -hmm, because two can play that.

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Mm -hmm, right? That's right if if you get to sit simply arbitrarily wave your hand and say well, we don't have to Take those parts of the

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Bible seriously Because slavery. Mm -hmm, right? Everybody knows slavery is wrong and therefore

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Moses and Jesus and Paul are all wrong All right, because of modern enlightened thought as soon as you do that, they're going to start saying well

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Why can't I reason in exactly the same way with regard to my same -sex spouse?

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Yeah, right and you have nothing to stand to Withstand them because you've abandoned the scriptures and you are now you are now opposing them with your bigotries

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You find homosexual practice distasteful personally distasteful and that means that when they accuse you of that They actually have a point, right?

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That's right, right So the sexual sin is not immoral because it's distasteful.

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Mm -hmm, right? It's immoral because God prohibits it All right, so There are many faithful Christians who walk away from various sexual temptations

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And the reason they have to resist sexual temptations is precisely because they're not distasteful.

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They're attractive Mm -hmm, right. That's right and and so we have to have a ground for a ground of resistance that is that is

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Grounded in something other than our personal feelings And so what this has done is knocked all your props out and you and there you are opposing

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Same -sex mirage because you don't it's it because of the ick fact because it's icky Yeah, and that's that that's going to last

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Months not it's not gonna last very long at all The other thing and this goes back to something that I think

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I Learned from my father at least in spirit if not overtly and that is to have no problem passages

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Apriori going going in. All right. So once the exegesis is done Once I know what the passage actually says,

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I'm not gonna back off of what it teaches a millimeter Right, so no problem passages,

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I'm not gonna say I'm not gonna make excuses for Moses I'm not gonna explain Jesus thought processes why he was, you know

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Held by held captive by some of the assumptions of the day, right? No, I'm a

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Christian. So if I'm a Christian, I follow Jesus and that means I don't back away from the

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Bible at all and one time we were And you know, there was a homosexual dance or something down downtown here and so some some of us went out down Homosexual dance.

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Yeah This is a dance going on somewhere Yeah, it's the old post office and they were holding some of some event and so some of us went down there we're handing out literature outside and one of the

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Attendees was upset and called the Methodist minister to come down and deal with us Come down argue.

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So he came down he was talking with me arguing with me And he said so you're saying because Leviticus and I said, right and he said but God allowed for slavery in the

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Bible And I said, well, yeah, that's right. What's your problem? What's the point? And we were all done

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Right. Yeah He didn't have anything to say because that move almost always gets the

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Christians To run down this to run down the street because God was I know that God was really mean before But he's so much nicer now, right?

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Yeah, we got it. We adjusted his meds Between Malachi and Matthew Gets you into the

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Methodist Church So, I mean that's that okay, so so the point is okay, so let's go there for a second because Because a lot of people don't like to listen to the rest of the argument, right?

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Okay So yeah God because God says that's my argument fundamental fundamentally I've got all kinds of really great and creative external things that go on around this as to why it's bad

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For society health reasons the different stuff that happens with the destruction of the family, but fundamentally it's because Jesus is the reference point

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He's the center and because he says right and so we go to his word now I'm gonna go. Yeah, so God did have a form of slavery not resembling what took place in Georgia In in the

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Old Testament for the preservation of life and all the rest, but so we now he started explaining So what do we explain? So so if they say oh,

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I've never heard this before. Are you are you justifying? Vile abuse of slaves.

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Yeah, I'd say absolutely not. That was a sin. God hates it. Yeah, he he's gonna judge it at the last day

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Yeah, are you defending race -based chattel slavery? No, absolutely not

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That's not That's not a biblical pattern And and so one of the things I would do is

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I would distinguish the kind of slavery you have in the Old Testament Where it's all under the law of God Where I would say it amounted to glorified indentured servanthood, right?

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Yes, so right, but that's what you have in the Mosaic law in the New Testament You're dealing with a different situation where the slavery the the laws governing slavery were pagan and Roman, you know

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Roman law and There the Apostle Paul is giving

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Christians instructions on how to deal with it And I and I would say that his instructions amount to here is a peaceful and godly way to subvert the pagan system

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Okay, so we want to we want to subvert this system without a war. We're not we're not going to Organize a riot.

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We're not going to Have a Spartacus kind of slave revolt that would be crushed Yeah, what we're going to do is we're going to lead slaves and their masters to Christ.

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We're going to Teach them how to live in their station in Corinthians Paul says if you have an opportunity for freedom take it right, so right it's for freedom of Christ to set us free, but we want to do it peacefully and One of the one of the fun

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Things and this is a this is not a slam -dunk thing, but I think it's likely in Ephesus within At the end of the first century there was a bishop in Ephesus named

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Onesimus Okay, I believe it was the same the Philemon's freed slave really so Paul returns

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Onesimus to Philemon and says receive him back as a brother You owe me you owe me a lot

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Philemon so I you know, whatever he owes you put it up to my account So Paul insists that they reconcile peacefully and I believe that that sort of approach

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That's kind of logic eats out the whole system of slavery from the in from the inside.

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So when you have When you have people who are Just don't know how to live their own lives, right?

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Then you have to deal with them somehow right and and this is another thing This is just and the

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Old Testament law tells us how to do that. Yeah There are currently in the

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United States about 1 million People incarcerated. Mm -hmm. Okay, they're slaves the right of the

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Constitution prohibits slavery except for People who've been convicted of a crime.

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We have 1 million people locked up in dog kennels Mm -hmm, right, right and we feel good about ourselves because we can drive to work and not see them working in the fields

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Yeah, because we have them locked up in a dog kennel. Yeah, right. We're more we're morally superior

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And and and and we have them there because Some 19 year old kid bought some pot.

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Yeah, right Okay, so Slavery is inescapable.

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Yep. Somebody's gonna be a slave. That's right There's going to be because because not everybody is self -governed.

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Yep. Yeah, right Yeah, some people are out of control and they they need to be taken in hand and I'm not saying that we should let all the

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Criminals lose right, but I'm saying that a million. Are you serious? Are you serious a million?

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people and that's because We what do we call them? We call them penitentiaries. Mm -hmm, right because we think the state is the

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Savior We think that we can lock them up in a dog kennel that makes them penitent penitent, right?

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We for young kids We call them reformatories because we think the state can reform the heart the state can't reform the heart

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That's right. The state can't give a penitent heart, right? So what we do is we send these people off to grad school for criminals

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Yes in order in order to harden them then they get released they do it again They send them back if we applied biblical penalties, which would be

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Let's say it's a punk who steals your car You know what we do now punk steals your car and takes it for a joyride and runs it into a tree and then he's

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Prosecuted it's a felony. We We send him up the river and Then we raise the taxes on the guy whose car was stolen to pay for room and board for them.

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Yeah He gets up twice but in a biblical situation He would have to make restitution and it would have to be personal it have to be right

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Personal unless the person said I don't want to make it personal. He doesn't owe me anything But it but if you wanted him to come back, let's say there's a $15 ,000 value on that car, right?

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he would have to work off the $15 ,000 20 % and if he became your slave just to keep it a fiery topic and not even get around the word if he became your slave

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You you now have to interact with him And you now have to look him in the eye.

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You have to talk to him and That's gonna change you and it's gonna change him.

28:26

Right, right I mean, there's that that's that's hard to get around because that that that would change society

28:32

So so you drive it down to the down to the the heart of it Every fallen screwed -up society has slaves all we're no different Yeah, and so the my favorite question is by what standard so if you're gonna have slavery by what standard who makes the decisions?

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Is it impersonal and bureaucratic? Right, or is it personal right?

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So if someone would you say joining the military is another form of that? It could be you know, if it was voluntary, no, but if let's say judge gave someone an option, right, right

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But I would I would happen you told people haven't you seen people in your life and say I just dug I don't know what I'm gonna do with my life, right and what's your advice to them?

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Sometimes yeah, you need to carry a rifle for a while Right, you need you need to go dig a hole and you need to learn discipline and but also to have other people telling you

29:24

I've heard you say some people need other people telling them what to do, right? right, right and that is exactly correct, so if you have a if One of my jokes is if I were president and what a glorious three days that would be.

29:38

Yeah Yeah but if I had the the authority to I would let all sorts of people out of the penitentiary as soon as they make

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Restitution if their family takes up a collection they can walk they can walk free non -violent, you know

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Sort of non -violent property crimes. They make restitution. They put it right they pay for the room it paid for their room and board

29:58

Pay the victim back plus 20 % you're free to go And what why are we trying to do things that the state can't do?

30:08

Only Jesus can only Jesus can do these things. Yeah, and and so what it boils down to is

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Everybody wants to arbitrarily say that you're what you're defending is the worst abuses in South Carolina Prior to the war and I would say no,

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I don't defend any of those abuses I think God hates those sorts of things. I think they're evil I think and you see you actually said something that I thought was a powerful part of the film

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I think it was in the film I at least it was in the all the original footage and when people started challenging you on this issue because they just don't want

30:41

To listen that's our culture today. They hear the word slavery. They go boom. Gotcha I win you lose because you use the word but the

30:50

Conversation of slavery comes up and you said no actually I believe that people who kidnapped and enslaved deserve to die, right?

30:56

It's like wow that puts me in a whole new category because I don't think most liberals are even willing to say that Slave owners deserve to die.

31:02

Let's let's lock them up for a while and make everyone pay for it But let's not kill them. Well if kidnapping was a right in Israel kidnapping was a

31:10

Criminal a capital offense. That's right. And so the slave trade off the west coast of Africa Yeah was

31:17

I think a capital I think yeah I think trafficking in human souls in order to sell them like chattel was a capital crime and a just republic should have been

31:28

Treated with the death penalty. Yeah, and what does chattel mean? like like Like livestock or you know, okay

31:36

Okay, so chattel would it be a broader term, okay Because I hear chattel slavery the

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South but that that just means you're just treating something like so there's a let's say You're an ancient

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Roman and a Greek prisoner who was highly educated was Captured and you made him your house slave and he was the tutor of all your children

32:00

He was more educated everybody now that would not be a chattel slave. Got it, right? He would be a he'd be a slave but not a not a chattel slave.

32:08

Got it. So you have So So that was vile awful, but where does the word slave come from?

32:19

Well comes from Slav Right. Mm -hmm. The Slavs are the ones who were picked on that's they're the ones who gave their name to this so while While slavery was while the slave trade was operating off the west coast of Africa that unhappy continent had a bunch of slave traders

32:38

Operating off the north coast. So the Muslim Raiders would go across the

32:44

Mediterranean they would land in Land in European towns kidnapped the whole village.

32:50

They they would have there was one raid as far north as Ireland where the Muslim Corsairs would just land take everybody captive take them back to slavery in Africa So there was a there was slaves being exported out from the west coast of Africa and upwards of a million

33:06

White Europeans being hauled into slavery To North Africa.

33:12

Yeah. All right. So is it too early to talk about reparations there? Yeah So just you if everybody what everybody wants to do is they want to make somebody too late

33:28

It's too late. Yeah They want to make somebody pay right, right, but the only one who can pay is

33:38

Jesus We can't unscramble the egg. We can't we can't have everybody in the world

33:44

Okay, there's seven billion of us or more now everybody go back to where you should have been Yeah Fix it fix it.

33:52

Yeah, that that is literally trying to unscramble the egg. Yeah, we can't fix it How many how many tribes got ripped off?

33:59

How many villages got raided? How many people spent their lives in slavery? How many people have been murdered? How many

34:05

Eastern Europeans were displaced? What is Stalin? Do you know this this planet is one?

34:11

dark sorry mess and if you want to mess around the edges with Reparations and you know things like it's just it's insufficient.

34:22

You need something like the cross of Jesus Christ And the cross of Jesus Christ can can tear down the middle of all partition between Jew and Gentile There was a racial antipathy.

34:33

Yeah, there ever was one and it can do the same thing for whites and blacks It can do the same thing for Middle Easterners Asians Chinese and Japanese, you know you can but if you're just doing the cool kid racial reconciliation thing

34:49

Right. Yeah the Cool kid it gets you in all sorts of trouble

34:54

I I had a friend who was telling me he was in church that for a while that was all about all about racial reconciliation and My friend finally sort of popped on them and said what you you're you're you're all about raking racial reconciliation

35:10

But in your mind in your yuppie mind That just means getting together with black people and making friends with the cool black kid

35:18

He said in your church, you've got all these Asians. You've got Chinese and Koreans and Japanese and they all hate each other

35:26

Right, yeah, right and all you all you see is Asians. Mm -hmm, right, right

35:31

And this is some this is a point that to be D has made I think very very Powerfully and that is we modern man thinks in racial categories

35:41

Which is far more artificial than it's a biological artificial category

35:46

And the real category is tribal Okay Chinese and Japanese and Koreans are all ethnic are all racially

35:57

Asian But they're tribally very different and there are long -standing antipathies that go.

36:03

Yeah that go back It's like a Scots Scotsman and by the way, and that's way deeper than White black

36:11

America issues, I mean you get around, you know Apologies to all my Asian brothers and sisters, but you get around Asians even in the church and You start talking to them and there is it is deep in regards to Whoo Koreans with Japanese to the my brother my brother -in -law's ties.

36:29

I mean, whoo It's my brother -in -law grew up in Turkey And it was

36:35

Armenian. He's Armenian not Turkish and the Armenian genocide is a It's still it's a sore spot down to the down to the present

36:45

And then in South Africa back when you had apartheid all all we could see here was well, there's white people and there's black people and If you knew anything about it, you knew there were three major black tribes and two major white ones

36:59

Right, you had the English and the Dutch Right and the English and the Dutch at the beginning of the 20th century had fought a fierce war with one another so tribal antipathy is very much the center of our

37:15

Ethnic problem and we are misdiagnosing it all the time because we think it's a matter of skin color

37:22

It's it's nothing to do with it's nothing to do with skin color at all It has to do with or minimally, you know, right minimally so Thomas soul wrote a great book

37:33

Which I read decades ago called pink and brown people. I think it was pink and brown people

37:38

And and he he talked about how if you want to make racism about skin color the issue, you know the issue

37:47

Soul argued why why are all blacks from the West Indies? Why are blacks from the

37:53

Bahamas? When they come to the United States go right to the top. Hmm, right they succeed they're prosperous

38:00

They flourish in a rate in a in a society where color is supposed to be driving everything

38:06

Why is why is that? Why why do but? people from the black people from the

38:13

Bahamas Succeed the way the Vietnamese do You know, why is that? well, it's because it has to do with things like culture and family and education and and the cultural values of your of your tribe

38:26

Right, right. Another great book is a life at the bottom. He's not a believe Souls not a believer as far as I know and another non -believer who wrote a really fine book on this

38:38

It's called life at the bottom by Theodore Dalrymple, and he was a medical doctor in London Which by the way,

38:45

I got the book. You only need to get through the first chapter and it's

38:52

It blows your mind enough just the first chapter really to just put it down and go I can't because he he starts that book

38:59

Boom I'm a doctor, but I mean it you get through the first chapter you put it down you go I get it

39:04

So that's that's a one chapter recommendation. Okay. Yeah, so then so then you look at you look at London and you have

39:11

What he does is he describes? Every pathology that you that we can see in the

39:17

American inner city in the American inner city. It happens to be black Right, but in London All the same pathologies are there and everybody's white

39:28

Right and the issue is the state the issue is the idol of the state paying people to do destructive

39:35

Destructive things paying them to live in a destructive way Because the and this comes back to Darren's first point the state is no

39:41

Savior. The state is an incompetent Savior the state can't Can't be our

39:47

God My father's Mexican. He was in the military and I Think they were going to Germany At some point and they're going to a club to hear music and My dad tells a story that the guy said to him

40:03

Hey, we get to that club anyone ask you if you're Mexican just tell him you're Cuban and you'll be fine Wow, yeah, that's amazing.

40:13

Yeah, but again, but that goes back that's a tribal issue That's not it. So that doesn't with skin color, right? Cuz I don't really get along with you very well

40:20

That's because I'm half Mexican. Yes, I'm half Mexican So, okay, so now let's solve some problems

40:28

So So the issue of slavery comes up and then the

40:34

Civil War comes up in the film and it's all about like Sexuality and it's just all of a sudden the state gets into the conversation

40:42

We're talking about the Civil War people got such a weird connection to make so you've described the fact that the Bible has a way to end

40:48

Slate wicked forms of slavery scripture gives us that and and you do talk about the fact that Everywhere Christianity had influence in the world every other

40:57

Christian nation did away with slavery without a war a war right and so we fought a war and shed blood and killed a lot of people and Christians killed other

41:06

Christians right in that war and We think that's a bad thing We want to say there probably should have been a better way to do that and people go you're you're what?

41:15

You you think that was bad like we feel like slavery is over and it's such an awkward moment for people

41:21

It's a very weird moment at this time in history, especially when we in our generation We've seen some we've seen a few wars now.

41:27

Yeah, right and I thought everybody was anti -war, right? You know, even I was like pro the

41:32

Iraq war. I just thought that's good to do as a conservative because you're concert Yeah, I was like, yeah Right, right

41:38

So, you know, I hadn't really thought through it but all my liberal friends were like war is bad right all war is bad

41:44

Right and by the time like I'm like, hey, you know what they have a really good point Yeah, all my liberal friends from college.

41:49

Well, I didn't go to college. They went to college who went to college. We're like Schooling me and then one day

41:55

I'm like, you know what? They have a really good point. Yeah, these wars are really stupid.

42:01

Yeah, you know what that civil wars Don't you dare right? Don't you dare say the Civil War was bad, right?

42:06

That war was fantastic Yeah, so the fiery the fiery Fundamentalist Christian and all of a sudden

42:12

Doug Wilson sounds like a woolly liberal like that Civil War bet We should have thought of a new way to do that.

42:18

Okay. So how would you approaching it from a biblical perspective? How would you solve the problem of the

42:24

Civil War if you could go back and you could talk to people and you can have Some influence what would you have said to people as a

42:30

Christian? I would say if if we If I were transplanted back with the advantage of hindsight, you know, what would you be appealing?

42:41

What would you be appealing to people to do? Yeah, right The I would say the central thing is that generally speaking the north was more the intellectual leadership of the north

42:56

Actually was more Unitarian. Okay, the South was more Christian and Orthodox So I would consequently have made my main appeal to the

43:05

Southerner to the Southerners And I would say if you want the

43:11

Yankees to leave you alone On this then you need to do everything the

43:18

Apostle Paul said to do With regard to your slaves. Okay, right. You can't just pick and choose.

43:25

So basically My critique would have been leveled at the south more than the north

43:32

Because to whom much is given much is required. They were they were claiming more truth They and and so consequently,

43:39

I think they would have had to they had more to live up to Okay, right. So I think

43:45

I would have advocated for laws Prohibiting the separation of slave families.

43:51

I would have agitated for The repeal of laws that prohibited slaves being instructed to read, you know

43:59

So it was against the law in many places to teach your slaves to read. I think that they should have been pressed with their duty to evangelize their slaves to Teach them the the

44:12

Christian faith with a view toward peaceful Manumission right with a view to transition

44:19

To the point where there's where they're released. Yes, right and and our no bloodshed no bloodshed and are prepared and are

44:27

And you've prepared them For that. So if I'm a Christian master in the south and let's say

44:34

I just walked into it You know, I grew up came of age. Yep. I inherited the plantation.

44:39

Yep. Nobody asked me, you know, right you inherited a moral mess I inherited a moral mess.

44:44

Yeah, exactly Yeah, how do I get out of this if you've got a grizzly bear by the ears how do you get out without making a bigger mess, right and the central thing is when you try to Reform society apart from Jesus you're just engaging in social engineering

45:04

Experimentation and you always make a bigger mess than you, you know rearranging furniture in a burning house

45:09

Yeah, and and on top of that have you ever noticed that all the reforms that politicians call for now

45:16

Whatever, they're yelling for certain reforms. They're always yelling to reform the previous wave of reforms

45:23

The consequences of the previous wave right reforms, right? They don't know what they're doing. They're blind guides They they fall into a ditch and so I would say that to the to the

45:34

Southerners who professed Christ I would say that you have to be actively actively preparing your slaves for liberty that means

45:46

Evangelizing them Giving them every opportunity to worship teach them to read how to own their own land how to work their own businesses how to work their own land, but yeah all of that so Where you and then you start giving

46:02

You start giving legal privileges Full complete legal privileges to free blacks who have their own businesses, right, you know, etc and you prohibit

46:13

Jim Crow law, so Jim Jim Crow laws are laws where the state comes in and forcibly requires businesses to not so for example in Alabama a

46:27

Generation ago the state said if you are a restaurant owner, you could not serve blacks and whites together

46:34

Well, I would say what what business is that of the state? Why is the state Rick? It's not their property.

46:40

It's not not their property. Yeah, right. So had you so there are many legal reforms that you could have

46:48

Agitated for that would not have resulted in bloodshed. Yeah, right. It would have been a political fight not a

46:57

Not a man the barricades right so basically that it would have to be led by a revival in the church where the

47:04

The Christians who were part of the slave -owning system who had an uneasy conscience about the whole thing

47:12

Because it was race -based, right? So yeah, so so for example if I said suppose

47:19

I were talking as a pastor or Someone counseling pastors in the south at that time.

47:24

Yeah, I would say Something like so there's this Cracker down the road, you know, who's who's ever been as much of a waster as This other guy that you're you're saying this slave that you own needs to be a slave because because right

47:42

He needs someone to take care of him. So that's why you justify it So could we enslave that white guy down the road who's living in that makeshift?

47:49

Cabin down there. Can you enslave him? Yeah, well, no, we can couldn't do that. Yeah, why not?

47:56

Because he's white Well all the slaves in the Bible were white Every passage every passage you'd point to justifying slavery in the

48:07

Bible What they were It's what it's of white people So so basically you fight racism you fight

48:17

You fight those who would withhold the gospel from people. Yeah, you you fight coercion

48:22

Those are the things that those are the battles you fight. Yeah, so and then you have the opportunity of Subverting the system and I believe that this really would

48:34

Subvert the system the Christian faith did in fact overthrow The Greco -Roman system of slavery.

48:41

I think the Pauline system of subversion worked It took it took some centuries, but it it did work and and it did overthrow the system then when

48:51

Slaves were when the colonial expand age of exploration happened to the colonial expansion and then the slave black

48:59

Africans were imported into the Americas. I would regard that as a major Backsliding of Western culture.

49:07

Yeah, right We we had gotten ourselves free of slavery and it was a major backsliding and I think we should have tackled

49:14

The resultant mess the way we tackled it the first time but what? This that's where I kind of lose it and by the way,

49:21

I could use a trigger warning on cracker You're from California and the crackers you get at Whole Foods are not the same much more

49:35

There's not as white much more diverse. They're expensive. It's got those sesame seeds. Yeah, it's not the same thing at all.

49:41

It's seaweed And And this way he's a pastor because he's gracious because I still think this this this whole conversation the the

49:58

The onus is not on this concept of slavery because every time someone talks about it

50:04

We act as if there's this line and everyone just on this side of the line and there's all these

50:11

Able people who either have money or they have the ability to go and just purchase human beings yeah, and and the assumption is there's just a there's there's a continent somewhere and there's just people

50:25

Floating around and you just kind of go there and get them and I guess what just frustrates me about this whole conversation is you get to the land where there are people to go purchase

50:39

There are times where they did go in and just take people But everyone was taking people everywhere

50:48

Mm -hmm. I Mean, that's all there was That's all people did in the world so either you went and you stole people and Those people that got stolen either were stolen by other people too

51:01

Or maybe they went when they had abilities to go and steal people. So people have always been stealing people Or you have people who with their own people are selling their own people and by the time you get to the slave trade

51:12

You have Africans Who are making a really good business of going around it up their own people their own tribes and selling them

51:22

It's about by the time we get to Here we get to America It's like the whole conversation is everybody's known from the beginning of time

51:32

That slavery is bad and no one's ever engaged in it And then we get to America and this in this

51:37

Experiment starts and we start it by saying we need to go get some slaves for us to really make this thing work

51:43

It's and it's a new idea But slavery is the way the world worked.

51:49

It was the norm Everywhere. Mm -hmm. So I'm still confused on why

51:55

America I think there's actually a good reason why America has to defend it But why does America have to be the place?

52:02

That it has to be explained It has to be given a defensive way the whole world was doing slavery this was the norm

52:11

Why does America have to give the? Well We're so sorry every other every other place on the planet engaged in slavery, right?

52:22

So the the natural pagan state is a slave state

52:27

So, yeah, right, that's that's the that's the norm I can go to Dubai and they're enslaving people to build all those

52:35

Buildings over there, right? So here's how they're built. That's how they build everything in Dubai with slaves. I would say

52:41

I Would answer you two ways there and I'd say number one. You're right that it is unfair But secondly, it's right that it be unfair.

52:51

Mm -hmm, right So in other words when when some televangelist is caught, you know the secretary there's a great deal more hilarity than than there is when it's some

53:06

The president of some green energy company, right, right, right and Yeah, so you you've got these two things and the and the reason is it's

53:18

Paul says in Romans is because of you that Your behavior that the name of God is blasphemed.

53:25

So I would say that there really was an offense against our founding

53:32

Christian ideals That were held up Loftier than look at look at this and that was an invitation

53:41

For the world to take shots at it, right? So it's a good thing that because of America being a

53:47

Christian nation how it was founded It only seems right that this is the place because this is the only place where we can have the conversation, right?

53:55

So basically I think it's a car if it's conversation that must be had it's not fair But we have to have it and I think we should own our sins and God doesn't grade on a curve so The when we're called up before the

54:09

Lord and the Great White Throne judgment We're not gonna be able to say but the it was a lot worse in Brazil or well

54:16

It was it was a lot worse in Haiti Well, it was it was right, but did you sin against the light that you had right?

54:23

And I think we did so I think that the the institution of slavery By the time war broke

54:31

I think I think we would have had war between the north and south had there been no slaves I think it was about competition for land to the west

54:40

The north and the south were culturally different enough without slaves to come into conflict The slavery thing was dragged in later to give a moral veneer to the whole sure

54:52

So I don't think the absence of slaves would have meant the absence of conflict But with the presence of them,

54:58

I think there was enough behavior there to discredit Those whose profession was much higher than their

55:07

Their action was at the same time five -fifths. Excuse me five -fifths

55:13

Five Could you go over that Five sevenths five sevenths of the anti -slavery societies prior to the war.

55:25

We're in the south. Yeah, right, so Basically, I think that peaceful abolition right

55:34

Peaceful abolition by means of gospel by gospel means was the way to was the way to go.

55:40

Yeah, so This gets into the big punch here, but just I want to end it with this is racism wicked.

55:48

Yes It's a sin. It's a sin deserves death well, I would say

55:54

Depends on what you do with your racism. Okay, right. So and so if you're saying deserves death before God Yes, also all sin.

56:02

Yeah. Yeah all sin is worthy of death before God Yes, I don't think someone should be executed by us for being of course

56:09

For being a racist. Yeah, but if their racism leads them to certain crimes like kidnapping or or Murder or violent assault or whatever?

56:19

Yeah, then I think yeah. Yeah, so we we could address The time period that we're talking about we could say well

56:28

Here's some biblical ways that we can handle this Obviously obviously with the gospel people's hearts need to be changed first and foremost

56:34

We can do away with slavery and with it with with a gospel mindset with it with thinking like Christians once and for all and We should have anybody that's involved in this sort of stealing of other human beings and enslaving them

56:47

They should be given capital punishment by the state We should that's how we solve those sorts of problems and we can do it without Bloodshed in the sense of the north and the south coming into collision with each other.

56:55

Okay, but the discussion in the free speech apocalypse

57:01

Turned into slavery and then talking about Supreme Court in the state and That's somehow relevant to our current situation and how all right, so the if you imagined well first if you imagined in 1950

57:18

The federal government saying hey everybody you have to let homosexuals marry Right.

57:25

Well, yeah, can you imagine but it does not possible in 1850

57:30

You know just impossible. It's just impossible. So if you get to a get to the point where Most of the country still opposes same -sex

57:43

Mirage, right? Yeah The laws of 37 states were overturned in the

57:51

Obergefell decision so and those laws were passed because of pressure from the people so that the an anti homosexual measure was passed in California because Obama's was on the ballot and the black population turned out and they have a very low view of Of that.

58:14

Yeah, so every everywhere There's a fair political fight

58:20

The people who are opposed to same -sex Mirage have done very well for themselves

58:25

Okay. Yeah now when? Obergefell the Obergefell decision was handed down Why did all the people who opposed same -sex

58:37

Mirage at the ballot box and who opposed it? successfully Why did they roll over?

58:44

what because the federal government said It's because they think That that's our system.

58:50

They think that the Supreme Court is the Supreme being They think that the Supreme Court is has the final say on things like this and if the

58:57

Supreme Court decides Well, then there's nothing we can do Okay. Now my point is that we got to that place

59:05

That would that's a sentiment about the Supreme Court that did not exist for the vast

59:12

Majority of the history of our country. Yeah, so the question is how did we get there? What what were the what were the moves that that persuaded people over time

59:23

That the Supreme Court had the authority to determine what marriage was for all 50 states And I don't see how you can answer that question without looking at at the shift in the war between the states.

59:35

Yeah, so The Bill of Rights the first part of the the amendment to the

59:40

Constitution The the Bill of Rights is all Geared at restraining the power of the federal government.

59:47

Yeah Congress shall make no law, right? So all the restrictions are on the federal government in the initial amendments with the states as umpire

59:59

Yeah, okay. So don't you do this and don't you do that? Don't you you know? don't you restrict their right to bear arms and and the states are the guardians of Our rights in the

01:00:12

Bill of Rights and the one restricted is the federal government In the war between the states and in the aftermath of the war between the states particularly with the 14th

01:00:21

Amendment The and the in the court decisions that followed after about the 14th

01:00:27

Amendment the restrictions applied to the states

01:00:32

Now with the federal government as the guarantor Okay, now another thing

01:00:38

I should say is that I certainly believe that a state government can be tyrannical sure. Yeah, right, so And I'm not saying that we shouldn't have some sort of constitutional mechanism

01:00:50

Whereby other states or the federal government could intervene in a case of a state level where you split with full

01:00:57

Libertarianism it doesn't solve anything to say as long as people right can do what they want to do.

01:01:03

We're gonna be just fine right, I think that's incoherent, right and so there was a shift as a direct consequence of the war between the states where It used to be the people the 10th

01:01:18

Amendment said States not enumerated to the federal government are retained by the states or by the people

01:01:24

Right, so we were the guardians of our freedom over against the federal government and the federal government couldn't do these these tenement

01:01:32

These things proved in these ten amendments now we look to the state to the central state as the guarantor of Our liberties over against what the county might do.

01:01:44

All right, so the county might set up a Christmas Nativity scene on the county steps and and the feds have to come in and protect me from that All right, or they might prohibit a couple of dudes from marrying and so the federal government has to protect me from that Well, that shift is a profound

01:02:03

Shift in polity. It's just it's a profound not the way things were not the things that Not the way things were and something happened that to bring that shift about and that the main event was the

01:02:18

Civil War, yeah that's powerful and it I think it rattles a lot of people and I think a lot of Christians aren't aware of the implications and the consequences and You you said something that I I I think needs to be heard

01:02:35

And I and it was almost like an aside But it's such a big one. It's so meaningful and that's where you talked about how the ramifications and the consequences all those things that occurred as a result of the

01:02:49

Civil War has led to racial animosity and Intentions that we're still still dealing with today.

01:02:56

You just said it as an aside just a moment But it's so much because we have so much today right now

01:03:03

It's all about racial tension and it's about people coming into conflict with the police it's because they're black and it's because of the white privilege and it's all these different things and you have a liberal liberal professors saying

01:03:13

Things like well, I don't want to have kids because they'll be given white privilege like, you know, just it's crazy

01:03:19

So much and you said well, I think a lot of it has to do with you know that conflict right because we the our country was severely wounded at in that in that war, right and Our history was wounded our people ruined our families were wounded

01:03:38

It was just it was a terrible terrible time and wounds don't heal apart from Jesus Christ Yeah, so there is no secular.

01:03:48

So what it boils down to is if you look at Do I do I think blacks ever get mistreated by Metropolitan police departments.

01:03:56

Yeah, do I ever think that guys get black guys get pulled over for driving while black? Yeah. Yep.

01:04:02

Yeah Do I think that there are any? abuses of the white power system against Ethnic minority.

01:04:11

Yeah, I think that happens and I think and I think the sin goes the other way, too I you know, I think the sin goes the other way, too.

01:04:17

I think there's black on white. I Think there's black on white violence. I think there's black on black violence

01:04:23

I think there's white on but you know, I think you you've got all kinds of things like this and I would say you can't

01:04:30

Solve that problem without preaching Jesus You'd simply you cannot the the the secularists are impotent to make

01:04:41

They they have no solution that will enable them to make ethnic groups.

01:04:46

Stop hating each other. They cannot do it They could crack heads and bring a semblance of order, yeah, right, but everybody's still seething under the

01:04:57

Under that rough justice. You haven't you haven't fixed anything. And so if you look at the

01:05:05

We're like that woman in the Gospels the more the doctors treated her the worse she got. Yeah Well, look at all the racial reconciliation that we've been going through through my whole

01:05:17

My you know my whole lifetime people have been pounding the drum of rake it racial Reconciliation and at the end of the time people are more daggers drawn than they have ever been

01:05:26

Yeah, right. So your your God doesn't your God doesn't cut it. Your God can't do it

01:05:32

Yeah, your God can't walk on water your God can't fix it. So why don't you cry out to Jesus?

01:05:38

Well, I don't want Right. Yeah Well, I want to be I want to love my

01:05:43

I want blacks and whites and all the races to love each other But if I call him

01:05:49

Jesus, he's gonna say some other stuff Yeah He has other things. He's other things.

01:05:55

He's summer on the Mount is Kind of pinches me at point so There's there's an aspect to what you do in your ministry and the things you talk about and The film the films you make we've talked about this

01:06:13

And to apology a radio that I think people capture Almost instantly like there's something different here something very very different.

01:06:22

It looks like You talk a lot about like Jesus has something to say over this realm

01:06:29

He's allowed to talk to it and this realm in that realm and he actually has something to say in the area of sexuality and Even government

01:06:35

Jesus is Lord over that too. He's in charge there. You may not know it Or think it but he is you have a view of the of Christ's kingdom and the future that is

01:06:47

Different in many ways than most evangelicals today in America Actually think and the way they see things is actually being like well

01:06:56

What are we supposed to be doing a lot of Christians? don't think you should actually really have to tackle these issues because Jesus has come back anyways, and You know, yeah, it's bad guys

01:07:06

It really is but you just need to preach the gospel and you know, hope for the worst, right? Right, right.

01:07:11

So okay. So talk about that for a second You you have a perspective of the world and Jesus kingdom and his authority that really goes against much of Christian culture

01:07:20

Correct. Okay, correct. Yeah, that's correct Okay, we our tagline that expresses that or sums it up is all of Christ for all of life

01:07:29

Yes, so that's not just a pithy slogan. No, you actually mean it. Okay, so all day

01:07:36

No, they mean that they they hired a company We hope you like it

01:07:45

So, that's all five -fifths of life So all of Christ for all life that means that Jesus Christ is

01:07:54

Lord Means that he's Lord of everything if he's if he's not Lord of all of all he's not

01:08:00

Lord at all Yeah, that cost you a lot, too No The the the first all of Christ for all of life is something that occurred to me in the course of an interview like this

01:08:16

I and I just said it if Christ is not Lord of all he's not Lord at all It's something I heard from someone years and years ago.

01:08:23

I don't remember who but I think it's it's compelling. So Jesus is the

01:08:28

Lordship of Jesus Christ is The center of everything

01:08:34

In Colossians 1 it says he's the RK. He's the he's the integration point for all of life

01:08:40

Okay, and if he's not that then I don't want to worship him as my private dashboard

01:08:46

Jesus I don't need a private deity. Yeah, right. I need a

01:08:51

God who is God. Yeah, and so If you say that Jesus is

01:08:56

Lord of all if you say that Jesus is the integration point of of Everything that means he's the integration point of all life every human endeavor every lawful pursuit

01:09:07

Jesus Christ is is the Lord of and so I just smile on this stuff

01:09:14

You don't hear it a lot. You know, I mean like I'm sitting over here just getting giddy Yes, you know, but it makes you want to fight.

01:09:20

Well, no Just but you don't hear people talk a lot about it it's like and it is exciting to hear someone and hear people say that because we we hear so there's there's so many slogans we

01:09:31

Do hear in our culture today, but we don't hear a lot of that. What's crazy is because it's from the

01:09:36

Bible. Yeah Well, how can you argue against it you're not allowed to yeah, and so what happens and this this is something else

01:09:45

I want to throw in there. Nobody comes against nobody if someone's controversial if someone is Well, you're just picking a fight or you're just controversial.

01:09:53

Nobody has ever said to me Doug I I hate you because you love Jesus so much or or I'm going to oppose you with everything

01:10:00

I have because darn it. You're just basing everything on the Bible. Yeah, right The early Christians were attacked for cannibalism for atheism for incestual behavior they in other words

01:10:11

Jesus said when people slander you and say all kinds of Vile things about you.

01:10:16

They're they're not gonna say you're the best Sunday school student ever They're not gonna say man. You read your

01:10:22

Bible a lot that that's not what they're gonna tag you with They're gonna they're gonna tag you with things that they made up or took out of context or whatever

01:10:29

You're going to get in trouble So if you say that Jesus Christ is

01:10:34

Lord of all you're going to have a ruckus on your on your hands And that's one of the reasons why people don't do it.

01:10:41

They They just say man, that's that would I would pay a big price for For saying that and sticking and sticking by my guns.

01:10:52

So it's all oppressed for all of life He is the integration point. He is the Lord of everything and That that doesn't mean that I know what he would say about everything

01:11:04

But it means that I know I know Who does know? Right, right and he wrote a book and I should give myself to the study of it and seek to grow in my understanding of it.

01:11:16

Yeah, okay, so Jesus is seated on his throne now

01:11:24

Now and and right now first Corinthians 15 Paul's description of history going forward is that Jesus is seated on that throne now putting all of his enemies under his feet now and that when he returns

01:11:36

Paul doesn't say he's returning to bring that kingdom. Finally. He's going to deliver it to the father

01:11:42

Correct as a completed thing all things in subjection to Jesus Jesus when Jesus comes again, he's gonna put the capstone on Yeah He's building his kingdom now

01:11:51

Right and the final piece is going on when he returns and that final piece is the destruction of death

01:11:57

That's right. Every other enemy will be subdued prior to that time. Yeah, right Yep, and so Jesus gets to tell our government what to do

01:12:07

Today, he has that authority because yeah, he's God because he's God There's that there's that and Jesus Need more.

01:12:18

No, I don't about does it And Jesus has nine hours on first Corinthians Jesus has something to say about Christians in business

01:12:33

And Jesus has something to say about leaving legacies for your family Jesus has something to say about how we live

01:12:39

Jesus has something to say about how we educate our kids And so I think one of the things that's

01:12:45

I mean I people always, you know, Jeff, you're an optimist You're just an optimist. No, it's because I believe

01:12:51

Jesus is King and he's gonna win like I have so much faith I believe that one day there'll be no more Presbyterians So know that and people will say that about you and me both

01:13:06

I'll say, you know It's just you're being so optimistic and you're not looking at the world around you. You're just not paying attention You're in a burning house. You're like everything's fine guys.

01:13:12

Things are things are things are good, but that's not really true It's not that we're just these hopeful just optimists and we just see the glasses half -full

01:13:18

It's that we believe that because Jesus is King because he's reigning now

01:13:24

That means that certain things will be true about the world that he has The Father's promise ask of me and I'll give you the nations for your inheritance the ends of the earth for your possession

01:13:33

We actually believe that that's actually meaningful It means something and and I think the divide is and this is what eventually if you look it up in the

01:13:40

Greek nations means nations Yeah, it really means that so great commission. Okay, but here's where the here's where the divide starts to happen

01:13:47

We will say no no about this jokes. I'm just trying to Feel free to love Because you're an optimist.

01:13:54

I was like, but then why are you delayed on? so Okay, but it's okay. So so Doug what people will say is

01:14:00

Christians and they say well, yeah, he's King of Kings Yeah now and Lord of Lords now and yeah, he has all authority now, but like but not necessarily here spiritual

01:14:10

Oh, yeah What people want to do is say yes Jesus has triumphant and Jesus is ascended the mount of all strength and Jesus is the right hand of it and you say yes

01:14:19

And Jesus has authority over the politics of these United States and they say oh You mean authority authority?

01:14:26

You mean you mean actual authority, right? Well that look what you're doing. You're you're putting

01:14:31

Jesus in this Invisible sky palace. Yeah, right And yeah And you've got him in this invisible sky palace where he can run the run everybody up there ragged because he's got true authority

01:14:44

Yeah, but he has nothing to say about us here We will not have this man rule over us that's not

01:14:52

Another eschatology that's unbelief. But in fairness Pete people say well, no, no, Doug.

01:14:57

We're not I'm not saying I'm not going with your invisible sky palace. I'm just saying that it's a spiritual thing

01:15:03

Jesus is in a spiritual way. He's he's in charge of me. He's ruling over me.

01:15:09

And as long as we get the me Fixed then everything else just gets fixed Yeah, well, but the point is is what what do what does that me do?

01:15:20

Right. Well, it votes. Okay, right runs for office It goes into dentistry

01:15:27

Goes into but I should wait until I get my my family together my my relationship my wife together my kids go and then and then

01:15:33

When I get my own house cleaned, then maybe I'll go and vote. Well sure Okay, but that I don't care what

01:15:38

I don't care what order you do it in so long as we agree on the principle So I I think that people ought to get their households in order first,

01:15:45

I Absolutely. Yeah, and I thank you anything and I think I think that you ought to have the

01:15:51

Reformation in the church before there's going to be Reformation in the public square So I don't have any problem with the order that we tackle this in I'm just saying

01:16:00

I don't want you to in principle take some area of human endeavor off the table and say that we must never

01:16:06

Go there Right, that's that's the one thing you must not because all spiritual whatever whatever category you create for something being spiritual

01:16:13

It has to act out in flesh and it's the great the Great Commission flesh and blood Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth

01:16:20

Has been given to me Right therefore go so it's not enough if we just go and send missionaries.

01:16:27

That's disobedience We're not we're not allowed to just we're not allowed to go. We're not allowed to just go we must therefore go

01:16:35

Right. Yeah, right So if we therefore go we go Because Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth the only way we can gather all authority

01:16:45

Oh, if there's if there's any authority at all, that's legitimate on earth Jesus has it and so we're not

01:16:53

We are not organizing a political. Jesus is not running for president and we are not his campaign workers.

01:17:00

Yeah Okay. Yeah, he is a king. He has been crowned He has been seated and we are his heralds

01:17:07

Yeah, so we are going out to all the hinterlands announcing to the villages what happened in the capital city

01:17:14

The king has been crowned You're all invited to come along quietly Okay, so but I but I won't be able to hear this because that we say king of Kings Lord of Lords means something

01:17:28

That's for real in heaven and on earth. He meant that he really meant it over all authority meant means all

01:17:34

He's gonna get all the nation's descendants of Abraham as numerous as the stars That's a lot of stars and we're not even close.

01:17:41

I think we have a long way to go, right? But Doug does well two questions one.

01:17:47

Does that take place by some? force and Second called the

01:17:53

Holy Spirit. Okay. What do you mean force? Well, we're Christians. Oh, so so this is a political thing,

01:17:59

Doug. We're just we're just concert We're just conservative American Christians and we're saying America and Jesus is

01:18:05

Lord over it and we're just gonna take over just their political process Okay, not not that not that so What?

01:18:13

How do we get there? We get get there by means of evangelism and apologetics and preaching the gospel and yeah and planting churches everywhere

01:18:20

Okay, that's that's how this is accomplished. Okay, so Jesus says all authority in heaven

01:18:26

Therefore go yeah disciple the nation's so how do you do that in the New Testament in the book of Acts?

01:18:32

You do it by planting churches by teaching people how to live Christian lives by teaching them to be good and godly tradesmen

01:18:38

Yeah by teaching them to be Obedient slaves who then subvert the system of slavery and they start making everything starts

01:18:47

Changing. Yeah as a result of these Christians who have their families put together and they start living in Community as a new policy as a new city as a new way of being human

01:18:58

Yeah Now when you plant these centers of churches these centers called churches, which are sort of the pilot

01:19:06

Projects of a new way of being human and you plant them everywhere It starts to grow and multiply and the whole society is trend is the whole society is transformed

01:19:17

And eventually the next to last thing that will happen is the laws will change

01:19:23

Yeah, so we're not saying we drop the laws on society. No you well first It would depend on the law

01:19:30

So for example, I would be more than happy to drop a pro -life law stop the slaughter on America tomorrow

01:19:38

Amen, right? Yeah, so there's certain things like that, but there there are things that It would take a lot of Reformation in the church before you got out just some aspects of divorce law or Inheritance law, you know, you know things like that.

01:19:53

Yeah stop killing each other I think we can I think we could do that right now. Yeah. Yeah, I like that and But okay, let me ask you this too because I got ambitious people people

01:20:06

It's so great. Have you sitting here right now? Because let's let's put this on record right now. It'd be perfect So we talked about how this is gonna take place.

01:20:12

Jesus is Lord. It's faith in Christ. It's the gospel that goes out Do you believe in salvation by works? By yeah by Jesus by Jesus works.

01:20:21

I'm just gonna ask you right now because people know my affection for you and you know a lot of things that I say have come from you and you're over the years you're teaching everything else and so I'm Just gonna put it on record right now is salvation through any other means than Christ and faith in him

01:20:37

No, so the instant the sole instrument of our Justification.

01:20:43

Yeah is our faith and that faith itself is a gift of God lest any should boast

01:20:49

Paul says so the If someone is put right with God he is put right with God because the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to him

01:20:59

Yes, the righteousness of Jesus Christ his work His obedience is imputed to me and the instrumentality by which it is imputed to me is my faith

01:21:09

And that faith itself is also a gift of God so that I might not ever be tempted to take credit for that So I believe that in Ephesians 2 10

01:21:20

It says we are God's workmanship creating Christ Jesus to do good works and right before that It says we are just we're saved by grace through faith not of works.

01:21:29

So we are not saved by good works at all We are saved to good works

01:21:34

So the the moment of justification has nothing all I bring to it is death

01:21:41

That's that's the only thing I contribute So not now not ever not now not ever.

01:21:47

No works. No Christ and his work Christ alone faith alone grace alone and But what people get the thing that messes people up is that grace?

01:21:58

Works grace is not works, but grace works So when we're saved by grace not by works

01:22:05

You are God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works The first thing that happens is you start doing good works, but you don't go baa baa to become a sheep

01:22:15

You know, yes, you you go baa baa because God made you into a sheep Yes, you don't you're not a bramble bush that can grow an apple and then

01:22:24

God makes you an honorary apple tree Because you grew the apple. Yeah He transforms you from a bramble bush into an apple tree after that you grow the apples, that's right, right

01:22:34

Now if someone doesn't grow any apples Then at some point you can say I don't think you got turned into an apple tree

01:22:40

Yeah, but that doesn't mean that you're saying you must turn yourself into an apple tree.

01:22:46

It's all it's so It's solo gratia solo fidei solus

01:22:51

Christus. Amen. So this is what I this is why I wanted to say No one can ever challenge it now. Yeah You're just pretending

01:23:02

This is this is what's important so I wanted to say this here you have Reformed Baptist pastor

01:23:09

Presbyterian pastor both with the view of Christ as Lord now and a victorious kingdom and that he has authority over Every realm of life and we should actually live that way and that actually

01:23:22

Christians we get the world Right that Jesus owns it and we get it It's ours and we we can be completely unified on those things and say it's the gospel

01:23:32

That's gonna transform the world as people are transformed the world changes with it, right? And so I think it's important for people to hear that and I think

01:23:39

I hope that helps people to see There can be such a strong essential unity and in particular a strong unity around One of the core aspects of what's most meaningful and that's

01:23:52

Jesus Lordship and authority over every realm right and his victory So, let's go.

01:23:58

All right, right. Well, I think the Bible literally and So I think

01:24:03

God says that he's gonna bless his people to a thousand generations. Oh, he's good

01:24:09

Yeah, I think we got at least 36 ,000 left. Yeah Years, yeah,

01:24:15

I mean so I I think we have a long time to go, you know, yeah I think future school children are gonna be studying our era as part of the early church

01:24:24

Yeah, I agree with you there. I think we have a long way to go Luke Well that actually is right into my question So we're talking about being optimistic and everything and what the thing you'll hear a lot is, you know

01:24:35

Especially with the film you just put out is we live in a moral mess. The culture is a mess, you know And I love my favorite part of the film was this the little nugget you snuck in at the end during the credits.

01:24:46

Yeah Thanks to Doug. I thought it was over. I'm like movies over and Doug's like it's not over.

01:24:51

Yeah Yeah, so you had an analogy about a soldier in World War two

01:24:57

I think Normandy or something I want to hear talk about that because I was like jumping up and down in the theater when

01:25:03

Everybody else is like walking out That that illustration came from my dad's book my dad wrote a book back in the 60s and called principles of war and And the illustration was taken from that book where you have a soldier pinned down under enemy fire on Normandy Beach and he can't get to the top of the next sand dune and And my dad said well, let's make this ludicrous illustration

01:25:35

Let's say a page out of Eisenhower's master plan for invading Europe blows down the beach

01:25:41

And it and the soldier picks it up and it says invade establish a beachhead invade

01:25:48

France Occupy Berlin, right? This is a master plan and the soldier is

01:25:54

Could be overwhelmed and discouraged because he can't even get to the top of the next sand dune, right?

01:26:01

Or if he's thinking rightly he's going to be encouraged He's looking up and down the beach.

01:26:07

They're all there's a whole army here. I've got my Objective and I might die

01:26:12

Before I attain my objective I might be unsuccessful in my little tiny

01:26:18

Thing, but I know that I'm part of something way bigger People can lose their a man can lose his life in a winning battle, you know

01:26:28

I've often thought about this when nations go to war and then there's Jubilation in the streets when the the end of the enemy country falls and there's jubilation in the streets

01:26:38

But you know, there's grief all over the city of the rejoicing city because of loved ones that died the day before that Right, you know that you you can lose your life, you know in a winning war and and so I Think that we in North America now are pinned down under enemy fire

01:26:57

I think we can't take the the next hill and I think what we need is a good dose of Reality, what's the master plan?

01:27:07

What what's got up to the master plan is to the I think

01:27:12

I say in the movie somewhere that the Christian faith Is a religion of world conquest that that's what it is

01:27:19

And and so Jesus has done he's risen from the dead This world is a world in which someone has risen from the dead

01:27:28

That means you can't stop us Amen So, how do we

01:27:34

I've got to touch this a little bit, but how do we do this practically then like as we're hunkered down? I mean, it's

01:27:39

Jeff and I were talking yesterday. We're driving around like it feels different here in Moscow Like we're walking with Darren.

01:27:45

He knows like everybody in town. We're sitting in a theater that your son owns Saint or new st.

01:27:52

Andrews College is across the street, right? Like it just feels different here. You have people in your church that own businesses.

01:27:57

Yeah up and down the street, right? That has been noticed by people who don't like it. Yeah We thought it was awesome.

01:28:05

So just right. Yeah, how do we apply all it looks like you guys are investing yourself in this world Yes, which is kind of how dare you you should probably stop that because things are getting worse.

01:28:14

Yeah, things are getting worse, but C .s. Lewis has a great essay called learning in wartime and he says if you don't if you don't

01:28:23

Give yourself to study culture You're not going to have no culture. You're gonna have bad culture if you don't study philosophy

01:28:31

You're not gonna have no philosophy. You're gonna have bad philosophy. You're you So basically our task is to do what we do whatever you do whether you eat or drink do it all to the glory of God So if you're gonna open a restaurant to open a restaurant to the glory of God if you're gonna do math problems

01:28:46

There's a grad student do math problems to the glory of God if you're going to be an educator do it to the glory of God So every lawful pursuit is a pursuit that Jesus can be

01:28:56

Lord of and is Lord up so I don't I don't think it's right to assume that if we have a a you know,

01:29:07

Navy SEALs for Jesus movement, I Don't think it's going to be a monastery with monks in their cells

01:29:13

Saying prayers all you know, I think it's going to be people doing, you know raising families and planting crops and starting businesses and making movies and you know doing all this and It had and there has to be an integration point and that has to be the

01:29:31

Lordship of Jesus Christ because everything else Comes apart in your hands and like you mentioned earlier starts with the self -government

01:29:38

Family right out from there There's also a sense of you know, they're there, you know

01:29:45

Everyone makes decisions in regards to how they want to live their life like no one Unless you're under weird circumstances, you know, you know looked at their wife and says honey

01:29:53

Let's you know, let's you know, let's let's go find a church, you know, let's start three hours out And we'll just work our way in.

01:30:00

I mean just it's just not practical. You just you just don't do that, you know and and so Christian living and is a very unique thing

01:30:10

You know, Moscow was designed back at a time, you know when you know, it was still you know This is this is a throwback to how places used to be built.

01:30:18

Yeah, but you actually have a true Main Street It's actually a flat Main Street. You can go one town over to Pullman and their kind of Main Street is

01:30:27

Hilly hilly and so you don't it's it creates different. It's just a different vibe

01:30:32

You know, you go visit friends in San Francisco just wait San Francisco is it's it's crooked.

01:30:38

Yeah crooked that whole place is And so there's there's some geographical things that just are kind of old -school here you have a

01:30:49

Main Street and you have houses And suburbs, I mean not suburbs, but you have divisions around it

01:30:55

And so you you actually and I'm sure there's plenty of small towns across the country

01:31:00

That have this where you're gonna work you where you see people every day every single day

01:31:06

So that's that's not abnormal in one sense. It isn't Phoenix. I can tell you know, it isn't Phoenix and Southern California where I was so when you come here

01:31:17

There's it's it's not uncommon Structurally how its design there are places all throughout

01:31:22

America like this. However because of the structure here And then you put that you have lots of Christian churches here

01:31:31

You know, I mean I friends at the Church of the Nazarene. I have friends, you know, you know over here at this trip

01:31:38

You see them every day and you actually know who they are because it turns out everywhere you go There are thousands of Christians everywhere.

01:31:45

It's not a place. You can't go on this planet and not find Christians, you know And if there isn't Tell me where it is.

01:31:51

I know people who will go there. So I'll just say that So when you're here in a small town like this and there are thousands of Christians It's completely different than any experience.

01:32:02

I've had because it feels great to walk around Christians. It feels awesome I like when

01:32:07

I go to church, I like Christians You know, I feel good at church I like walking down a town and not you know in a town where I see hundreds and hundreds of Christians All day long that makes you feel a certain way

01:32:20

It's just it's fantastic if I could add add something on to that part of the reason we're here a central

01:32:25

Central part of the reason this ministry is here is I mentioned my dad wrote the book principles of war, which is a classic

01:32:32

It's it's still in print. It's a great great book and it's one of the books I read read periodically because what he did is he took he's a

01:32:40

Naval Academy graduate went to the Naval War College and he took the principles of military war objective mobility surprise

01:32:49

Concentration Took all and then applied it to what he called strategic evangelism all right, so how do the principles of war apply to evangelism and One of the one of the things that shook out of his thinking that way was in the military

01:33:03

There's a thing called the decisive point and a decisive point is has to have two characteristics it has to be simultaneously strategic and feasible right, so if a

01:33:19

Location is strategic. It's important to the enemy if you took it it would matter very much to them and it's feasible

01:33:27

It's something you could take right, if you have those two things strategic and feasible then that's a decisive point and my dad decided that in North and I Think he's right in North America.

01:33:38

He said the decisive points all over the country were major universities in small towns

01:33:45

So the universe is so the university makes it important and the small town makes it feasible

01:33:53

So this was back in so he found out probably that he found out in the late 60s or early 70s that Moscow, Idaho and Pullman, Washington Were two small towns eight miles apart and they each had a major university in them.

01:34:10

So he moved here And and he moved here to start a literature ministry and because this is a this is a decisive point

01:34:20

And what what you're after here is what you and the reason you notice all the stuff you noticed is because of the phenomenon of disproportionate impact

01:34:31

Okay, so if there's a there's a town 50 miles east east of here called

01:34:37

Elk River Or Beauville on the way there We that's a feasible target we could round up a couple dozen

01:34:45

Christians and take it for Jesus In two weeks, right? Just all we'd have to do is move there

01:34:51

But when we're when we are done What we'd have is Beauville, right? It's feasible, but it's not strategic.

01:34:59

Yeah, New York City is strategic But not feasible Okay. Now that doesn't mean

01:35:05

Christians in New York City don't have anything to do because within New York City What they would have to do is zoom in and say

01:35:12

What points in New York City are strategic and feasible so they just they have to think on a different scale

01:35:17

My dad was thinking on a national scale. He was saying small towns with major universities are critical are critical towns

01:35:24

And so he moved here. And so consequently the fact that these are university communities that are small and vulnerable to To a large influx of Christians means that you have an impact that's way beyond What you would do if you move to another small town of a comparable size

01:35:45

Yeah, and then just as it grew obviously, I don't know back then when did the airport come in? The airport has always been there sort of as a putt -putt right but that even that's unique to you you you can get here

01:35:58

Yeah, you can get here. You know, it's not that hard, you know And so strategically you you have all those things you can be here.

01:36:05

You can still do work. You could fly and one of the things that happened another thing is telecommuting where we as people started to move here when that when something started to happen and Christian parents would come here to put their kids in Logos school or they'd come from the church and find out about the school

01:36:23

Or they're another unique phenomenon is kids come here to go to New St. Andrews Then their brother comes and then their sister comes and then last of all the parents move here, right?

01:36:34

Right, so that and the word I hear over and over and over again the word I hear again and again is community

01:36:40

There's there's an actual functioning living Christian community which with which has its warts and his problems and snark, you know

01:36:50

We we have community community so there there is there is that right? But it is genuine palpable community that people are attracted to and as they've as they've come it starts

01:37:07

Some of them have moved from California and they kept their job in California and they they're just able to telecommute

01:37:13

And that was not an option when we when we first started but it is now and so there are people who?

01:37:22

Work or different places around the country. They telecommute or they travel You know and and yet they bring up their kids here and it's just been a great great and then you just have pure just just just a industrious

01:37:37

Robust approach to things to where you you've had church members because of believing this believing

01:37:42

Jesus You know has all the authority can do all this and we're supposed to keep growing You've had church members actually have the kind of goals like I want to build a company here and and I want to have you

01:37:52

Know 50 Christians from the you know from churches around here employed here making $50 ,000 and up Like that was somebody's goal

01:38:02

Like very specific, you know, which got attained which which which got attained now

01:38:08

It's over a hundred people, you know So you have you have, you know Christians here who you know I've started a company and when you have a

01:38:14

Walmart when you have a university and when you're the third largest employer of people in a town like this because There was a particular

01:38:25

Christian mindset that Not just wanted to be in Dutch there's plenty of industrious

01:38:32

Christians But this but this kind of comes back to I think something that that we all share It's not just about doing particular things and doing and doing the right things inside mentioned this and when we talk about apologetics

01:38:42

But why are we doing those things? To what end? Yeah Well, of course every Christian would say it'd be great to start a company and employ a thousand people who's opposed to that, right?

01:38:52

But if you miss the but why into what end part of it, then you're just you're just doing it, right?

01:38:59

That's where I handed to Doug to finish my thoughts because I know if you do that, you're just what God Jesus Bible. Okay, right

01:39:09

We're doing it to win Right for the glory of God We're doing it to bring him ultimate glory and so and to take victory and it's a lot more fun.

01:39:17

Yeah It's a lot more fun. The parties here are way better. Jonathan Edwards believed it and it's a lot of fun.

01:39:24

Yeah That's what more do you need? What do you need more to believe? Jonathan Edwards believed it that's a better formulation

01:39:33

I'm really encouraged to hear this because we're about to try to apply the principles to an island. Yeah A church in Kauai.

01:39:41

Okay, and so we're trying to figure out the same thing Like how do we start a community some of the same reasons you talked about it?

01:39:46

Why well, there's a great book I know I can get yeah. Yeah principles of war. Yes Great recommendation.

01:39:53

Yes. All right Well good. Well, thank you. Thank you. So that was apology a

01:39:58

TV in Moscow, Idaho. It's very Christmassy here right now That's one thing. It's a Main Street There's lights and there's snow and Douglas Wilson and Darren Doan and and it's just been great

01:40:09

So apology a TV Moscow, Idaho So actually the first kind of like real traveling on location when we've done with all this stuff.

01:40:16

It's kind of exciting. Yeah, it's pretty sweet Yeah, it's not it's not not it's not collision You know, yeah, we're trying