The Aquinas Fuss

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You belong in the circus Spock Right next to the dog -faced boy

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Welcome to no compromise radio ministry pastor Steve made me do it. It's not my fault.

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Okay, I'm tired of the headlock Don't blame me Did you learn those headlocks at the prison?

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How'd that work? Don't ask don't tell Do you remember that episode with Spock and Kirk no

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No, I I'm not so much of a Trekker Trek person where I have every episode memorized least you say

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Trek instead of start track like I used to say in Nebraska, I think

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Spock was under a spell of some chemical or pollen seed spore or something underneath the powers of some person and then tut

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That's like a Batman episode and he I Guess if people got mad, they they broke the spell or something

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So he was trying to get Spock mad at him and then he would have enough I don't know sweat glands or something that what he would get out of the spell.

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So that's what he was trying to do there No compromise radio pastor Mike Avendroth with pastor

01:22

Steve Cooley The Tuesday guy his Twitter handle handle is at the Tuesday guy, correct?

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That is correct Facebook No, Tuesday guy just says Steve Cooley Steve Cooley. Uh -huh. Mm -hmm and What about Instagram?

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I Don't even remember I mean, I mean I I I have an Instagram cat and you know what one of these days

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I'm gonna actually link the Instagram with Facebook I just haven't done it. Let's just do that right now on the air.

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Okay You can write us info at no compromise radio .com. Don't forget coming up in March We have pastor

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Steve Meister here talking about the How do we phrase it the fount of all joy is the name of the conference?

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Yes about who God is and when you know God at your joy and holiness and happiness is increased

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I think I think that's what I think it's March 23rd through 25th. He'll be preaching here on the

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Lord's Day Sunday school Sunday night Looking forward to having Friday morning Friday afternoon Friday evening

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Saturday morning That's right Steve as you know, the internet has been veritably a buzz

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That doesn't really sound right lit up lit up with the discussion about Thomas Aquinas In your kind of lay opinion regarding Aquinas, you're no ox scholar

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What do you think of what's going on in Twitter? How would you set the table for our discussion? Well, I did go to junior high with Thomas and no

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What I I you know All I remember is reading him in seminary and thinking this man is

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Impenetrable, right? I mean as logic I Because you know that the seminary assignment

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Was not The best it was basically like read 25 pages of the

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Summa Okay, so you just open it up pick 25 random pages and you know plow through We had to do the same thing for the

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Quran, right? Yeah, I have to read the whole thing just read a little bit of the Book of Mormon Yeah, and if I if I'm being honest,

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I probably learned more reading the Quran, you know Just in terms of what kind of errors were in it, you know concerning the flood and stuff but With with Aquinas or like really with anybody we were talking about this off the air.

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What do you have to do? You have to read what they're saying I mean, do you have to and I think the answer is it's good to know what men have taught throughout the ages

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We talked about this Ephesians 4 The Lord Jesus Christ gave gifts to the church and these gifts are men

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Who've been specially gifted by him throughout the ages, you know Why so that we're not tossed about by every wind of doctrine.

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I mean we we we have these men to help equip us Okay, so God has not been silent through all these years he didn't leave his church defenseless he gave them special men sometimes these men are

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Spot -on and sometimes they're not and that's true of anybody. So when we read them

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We have to read them carefully We have to examine what they're saying against scripture and decide whether what they're saying is right or not and that goes for Aquinas It goes for Augustine.

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It goes for Calvin. It goes for MacArthur it goes for Sproul. It goes for anybody you want to name, right?

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I mean they all have I I would say I I've not read anybody That I would say well this guy has everything wired

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I've occasionally published a book or two and at the time I've said finally a book

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I can agree with everything Regarding the author then I mature a few years later and I think

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I sure wish I would have corrected this I wish I would have done that braggy kind of introduction

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Are you saying that I should get up on Sunday and say I'm God's gift to you Bethlehem Bible Church Ephesians chapter 4

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That would be bad. Okay Steve let's make it let's make it it's almost a false bifurcation but on one side of this argument with an evangelicalism and maybe within Baptist confessionalists, especially we have some people saying let's not really read promote

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Thomas Aquinas because it's going to Propel people possibly impel them to Roman Catholicism So that's one side or let's not maybe there's just saying don't overdo it a quote or two

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But always introducing all the new new works on Aquinas. Let's be careful.

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That's one side the other side is Where Thomas is, right? Let's use him and he's right on simplicity and and the doctrine of God and double predestination and other things and I think today on no compromise radio.

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We kind of want to be in the middle with you can use Thomas But let's put some warnings there

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How would you warn people and what I'm asking in direct in a directly answer asking now

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Steve is Talk to me from a pastor's heart versus a scholastics heart

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Because I think that's that's probably where the problem lies to some degree what I think it's

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You know, you start reading him and you think well, he's right on this and you keep reading him and you think oh

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That's that's new and I agree with him here and I agree with him there So therefore

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I must agree with him all across the board and therefore I must be Roman Catholic so the the caution again is

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You know Tip your toes into the pool Oh, but don't swim the

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Iber. Yeah, don't don't just leap in because you're not gonna wind up You're not gonna like where the current takes you

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Well, Steve I I watch people and they'll promote Roman Catholic Authors and books and they'll have them on their podcast or they'll quote them in their blogs or books or something like that But as a pastor

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When I would when I'm when I do that I would say now we don't we don't agree with Aquinas on baptismal regeneration and soteriology and on justification by infused righteousness, whatever

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He he's going to teach we don't agree with that But we can selectively learn about a seity and simplicity and impassibility

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From Thomas, but be careful friends. We're Protestants and we believe in sola fide

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I want I want somebody to give the caveat the guard the PS. Why don't people do that?

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I don't know I mean, it's much like you know, if you're gonna go fiddle around with some kind of Electrical panel or or whatever, you know you you and you just kind of figure why it doesn't really matter what

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I do I can't get hurt. We'll stand by So, I I think

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I mean, let's just say Aquinas was Well, we'll just be ridiculous here for a moment like we're never ridiculous, you know

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Aquinas for yourself Aquinas is in town. He's alive You know and you say well, I'd like to have on no compromise radio, right?

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You're not gonna say here's my good buddy Thomas Aquinas with whom I fully agreed across the board anything

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He says you can embrace no Because I mean it's more like what you said.

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We don't agree on basic doctrine. We don't agree on Salvation by faith alone.

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We don't agree, you know, I mean Justification we don't we don't agree on you know on and on and on and on The clarity of Scripture or whatever.

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I I mean, I don't even know all the all the problems with Aquinas But you say today we're going to talk about something that we do agree upon, you know, and it's

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The the nature of the Trinity or it's this that the other thing. Okay fine You know,

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I wouldn't bring Aquinas on and although I wouldn't think he would be a full -blown Mary worshiper, he would probably have some of that in him because it's the church over the last the

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Roman Catholic Church over the last you know one thousand years has really developed a

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Special shall we say a place for Mary that she doesn't she doesn't belong in It was years ago

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Steve with world magazine, I think a Presbyterian magazine, I don't know if it's still out or not

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It's kind of like Christianity Today News week for Presbyterians. I think I think it is

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I I think they've probably slowed their publication rate, but I think it is and they had Man of the year and it was

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Pope John Paul the second and they had a big article about why he was the man of the year and how he did this for against abortion and this that and the other and And I just wrote to them and said

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I want to be taken off your Subscription list because you gave no warning no caveats.

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No Pastoral, you know, he did this that and the other well, but we have fundamental disagreements as Protesters as Protestants as those who teach the exact opposite of things and actually

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Rome knows that because they say if you Teach justification my faith alone your anathema if you don't believe there's grace in the sacrament transubstantiation ie

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I'm not ie but something close to that your your anathema. They know why don't we know and to world's credit?

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They refunded me my money and posted that letter in the back of their magazine and the letter to the editors

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Yeah, they never post my letter. So what's your letter say? I probably just cut and pasted what you wrote

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Okay, so then we have Pope Benedict die and I realized that Pope Benedict has written supposedly

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I've never read anything that he's done great things about certain subjects that we would agree with and that he was the conservative and that Francis is you know

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The man who follows the wind of the age than right now and he just blown around with whatever he's got going on with woke

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But you can't say he was great and you're a pastor or you're a teacher or you're a theologian and then that's it

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You have to say he did great on this we admire Some of his integrity for such -and -such, but be careful of this.

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I think it's pastoral malfeasance to do that Without a warning. Well, it's like, you know, some people will say

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Like I might even say I'm a Calvinist and then someone will look at me funny and go well, I'm not because I don't believe in baptizing babies and I'm going

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Okay, you got me, right? I mean, I Don't I don't either so I guess, you know,

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I'm a Calvinist asterisk Steve I have a book called the holy teaching and it's basically a summary of the

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Summa and it's got kind of Aquinas is mine shown in certain areas just brief glimpses of this is what we believe.

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This is what we don't believe These are the implications. It's almost turritan ish With a great logical flow and I would read something on predestination and agree.

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I'd read something on the doctrine of God and agree But can you think I mean, do you think

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I I'm like out there promoting Aquinas all the time I don't think I've ever quoted Aquinas But once or twice maybe in my life and with a caveat if I have to say

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Ji Packer said and by the way, that's the old Ji Packer before he went ecumenical and CT ECT right right our

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Billy Graham We were glad he says repent and believe in the Lord Jesus the only Savior and then all of a sudden

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He says some dumb things on Schuller. Don't don't we need to help protect and guard people so they just don't imbibe at all

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Yeah, I and I mean, so I I guess have I ever quoted anyone and you know

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Regretted it later or thought Even while I was doing it. Do I need to do

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I need to caveat that do I need to couch it? so I So so sometimes

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I just say I did it on Sunday a theologian said yeah a scholar said yeah I don't have to get bogged into the caveat if somebody wants to ask me or they want to accuse me of you know

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Cribbing something or whatever. I don't know. But yeah, they can ask me and I because I always have the reference

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And I'll even lean to put the person's name. Maybe not always the reference in my notes, but I'll have the person's name there so I Think Steve that we've talked about this before on the show if you want to dive into Church fathers if you want to dive into Thomas Aquinas If you want to push your students or your congregation into studying some of the great doctrines

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From centuries ago that are true and right about our triune God Fine, but make sure they know this is advice.

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I got from Evan Burns Make sure they know about justification my faith alone that sola fide.

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They have that down pat They're never going to be moved from it. It's this impregnable rock and fortress

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They believe in sola fide so they can filter out everything else. What do you think of that advice? I think it's great advice because it really would stop people from if they have that grounding

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They're not gonna leave. I'll just say terra firma. They're not, you know, they're not gonna leave the firm ground of the gospel

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They might you know move around a little bit within Evangelicalism, but they're not going to leave it

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They're not gonna abandon the gospel and they're not gonna go to Rome which It is pretty important You know, we were talking about a little before the show

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People who are really not grounded in those things wind up reading different Catholic apologists listening to them and then being swayed and find themselves doing things that They ought not to do and and then they abandon the faith altogether

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Steve I think you're exactly right and if our folks know about justification and they have read

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Fesco's book Buchanan's book Calvin on justification Horton's got a two volume out now.

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I have it. I've only read maybe 35 pages. I have a lot of books I've only read the first 35 pages because they're bad

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I just have ADD the 35 pages the first 35 pages are always the best, right?

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I should probably go to the end and read the conclusion and I'd be settled right? Yeah done After we teach folks about that.

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I think if they do they end up going to Rome It's because they want to Right.

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It's it's similar to a reformed Baptist and he loves Presbyterianism so much and he's like, well, I've got to be truly reformed

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Therefore I have to go all the way now. It's or apples and oranges. I know that but I listened to a podcast the other day pints with Aquinas and It was

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I think the man is a young man a young man who was at Reformation Bible College down at Ligonier and that he

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If memory serves me he got asked to leave because he couldn't sign the doctrinal statement any longer and so he gets essentially kicked out

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The program for being a Roman Catholic and so it's two hours of him saying The Calvinist are good on this

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They believe in imputed righteousness Everything's a nice system. Here's what this that and the other is but I believe in infused righteousness

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I then came to believe in baptismal regeneration. I Don't know why

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Because it's costed. It's cost him school and I think his father's an evangelical

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But is there is there a psychological side to this? Is there a desire for I don't know

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We want to go back as far as we can and Rome is the original kind of church thinking

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I don't I don't think that's correct. But is that what they think? I don't know if it is and they really haven't done their homework because they

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They would ultimately find out that the Roman Catholic Church doesn't start till around 600 AD but you know, that's a whole different Topic, right?

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I I Watch guys on the I can't believe you're promoting Thomas because people are going to swim the

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Tiber Look at the guys at Reformation Bible College. I hear that but I also on the other side say to myself the people that we love and We love to read of course, we have some differences here there the other but let's just say

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John Calvin that's an easy one Well, why do we love John Calvin warm?

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devotional You you see his theology fleshed out in his commentaries and then is in the epistle and then his sermons

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But we love him for lots of reasons. Why don't we love it that he quotes from the church fathers?

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when they're right, I Mean, he'll even quote Bernard of Clairvaux. I mean if I quote

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Bernard of Clairvaux, I Want to almost give an automatic disclaimer. He doesn't give the disclaimers.

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He assumes we know okay, if Gregory or Irenaeus or Tertullian or origins says something dumb.

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We don't believe the dumb stuff We believe the good stuff and origins said plenty of dumb stuff

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But it's almost like it maybe your seminary days were different than mine Steve tertullian origin a lot of the fathers

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It's like we learned what they said poorly and I didn't really either I don't remember or I wasn't taught what a lot of the church fathers said

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Well, it was almost like well, we call them fathers, but they're really church children because the church has grown

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You know by the by the ministry of the Holy Spirit for now two more millennia I like that, you know church children because because we were really

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I mean specific issues Throughout church history.

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We would be taught when they got this right or they got that right and it's almost like yay for them

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Right. I mean what a that was like lightning striking, you know, because here there's this whole

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Morass of just gibberish and out of that comes, you know an astounding truth a moment of victory

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Yeah Talking today to Pastor Steve. We're talking about Thomism and Thomas Aquinas and swimming the

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Tiber and What is the time of turns? Tibers a river that goes through Rome good.

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Yeah, I've walked over the Tiber on the little bridge, but I never swam it You have to swim it to Walked over it.

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Yeah. Yeah. Okay, but then I walked back over because my hotel was on the other side We had to walk over and then back.

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Hmm. Uh -huh. So it's kind of like you became a Catholic and then I'm I'll tell you like Luther when you go to Rome it makes you think why would

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I ever become a Roman Catholic? Hmm, there there are consequences to all this stuff and you're like, what did what did

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Luther say? I don't you know If there is a hell is Rome's built on it type of thing and you just like oh that one church

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You walk inside and you see Mary with a cross and it looks like she's holding it it's this big gold cross like a lightsaber and She is it's a marble statue and she's after Calvin and Luther and her little the little imps her helpers the little angels or whatever they are are ripping the pages out of Calvin's book and and Luther's books very fascinating.

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Wow. Hi. I mean, I I just remember, you know, I've only been to one I think I was just one

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Roman Catholic wedding and I was just so like because I had no idea what to expect and just watching the couple go over to this statue of Mary and give her an offering and I was like What is this?

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I mean, this is just odd to me, right? Well, if you go to st. Patrick's Cathedral and you see the little kiosk for Joseph tiny kiosk for Jesus a little bigger the very back

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Who's got the big kiosk? Because that's where the action is. And by the way now you go to st

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Patrick's you just they have tapping with your credit cards. You can just tap an offering. I'm not kidding.

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I kid you not Just to have Apple pay Just tap so Steve let's think about church history and the

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Spirit of God as you referred to in Ephesians chapter 4 building the church maturing the church giving the church gifts and Apostles and prophets and evangelist and pastor teachers and you can imagine

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Jesus dies for the bride he's going to make sure she makes it all the way home to glory and that she's maturing and that she's

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Taking care of what husband would not do that for his bride. How much more the Lord Jesus? And so imagine just the stock of a tree like an old

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Redwood tree and the stock is is growing the the the the the trunk is growing

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A lot of people think that stock is Rome and we're the offshoot right of the

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Reformation where the Protestant offshoots But we're trying to tell the folks and we firmly believe and teach and can prove that the stock the root the the trunk is

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Biblical Christianity and an offshoot is Roman Catholicism Now, why is that important?

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Because some of the things that Rome taught are still within the trunk as it were that are good and right

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They didn't get everything wrong. They believe God is triune Right. So if I if I use this illustration,

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I grew up in a Lutheran Church I never doubted even though I was not saved at I was unsaved at 15 1920 -25 and up till 29 years.

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I never doubted that there was a God that he was one that he was three That Jesus was the

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God man. He died. He lived he was sinless. I never doubted any of that I mean they taught baptismal regeneration.

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That's true But they laid a foundation because they were within that stock trunk or root you on the other hand

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You grow up as a Mormon There's nothing close to that stock our root our biblical

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Christianity because the nature of God is all wrong Well, and even the Mormon Church would say, you know that this they would claim that it's a restoration, but they would make no

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Kind of claim that the church fathers were Mormon or anything else They would you know, they would say there was this falling away and that everything got distorted and you know using that same illustration with Rome It's not only now

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Basically a dead branch of the church, but one that has sawn itself off, right?

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I mean this is And and then you know with its nasty little crooked stick laying on the ground

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It points back at the tree and says that's no real church. I Guess what we're trying to say is as we're trying to wrap this up now

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There's nothing wrong with reading people that you Disagree with To some degree.

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I was just talking about commentaries. I was telling the young guys here the preachers you can read

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John Stott You just need to know what he believes that we would disagree with because he really does a good job in first Timothy second

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Timothy and Titus in his commentaries and he helps you understand right or you just pick somebody and you go

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Okay, Stott's annihilationist and this guy is such -and -such this guy's whatever and you just have it in your mind

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So, you know and therefore if I want to read Aquinas, I need to realize this is where he's wrong

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This is where he's right. But for me Steve, I don't need to push Aquinas. I'm not afraid of Reading him and turning to and going to Rome, but I can push other people that have the good

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Aquinas quotes in there Simply Trinity by Barrett or somebody like that So I don't need to say and we don't have one books in our bookstore that's written by Aquinas I don't need to because the good stuff in Aquinas is already in the good

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Reformation stuff Whether it's Calvin or anybody else and and so again, you know

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The idea that the Lord has given men to the church men who have done the sifting for us

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Who've you know as it were taken their pan dug it into the mud outside the gold mine

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You know run it through the water and come out with the nuggets got rid of all the dross So, you know if we read somebody like Barrett and he's quoting

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Aquinas he's done the work we get the benefit Right, I guess in summary for me and I'll let you have the final word

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Steve in this Aquinas debate Where some people say

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I think they're too cautious We can never say anything because people might swim the Tiber by the way

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People have been swimming the Tiber before this big Augusta this Aquinas push has been happened, by the way

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Why don't they do the same thing with Augustan to be to be fair, right and then on the other side?

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Okay, let's read Aquinas It's fine to do but I don't think we should push it in such a way that we ignore our pastoral responsibilities of shepherding and warning and especially for people that are

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Thinking like Philosophers thinking like engineers they really can latch on to what

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Thomas is saying and then all of a sudden they just think well He's right on this. He must be right on other things

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So I just want to make sure I'm almost kind of like I'm not trying to hedge my bets, but I think there's a third way

27:07

Yeah, and well, and I mean what you said about commentaries because During the course of preparation.

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Yes, you Sermon prep you look at Greek sources Hebrew sources depending on where you're preaching but And you look at the

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English you look at the grammar You look at all these things and you start looking at commentaries And like you said, you know the biases of these men, you know, who's the

27:32

Presbytery, you know Who the Reformed Baptist guy is you may even be reading for whatever reason you might read a

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Catholic guy, whatever Yeah, you might read the anchor Bible commentary. So so you look through these things

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You know what their biases are and you go, okay this Independent other biases.

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This is a good nugget from the Greek language You know, this is what they drew out of that and that's right so I can use that regardless of what other kind of Nonsense may may, you know be attached to it.

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And I think we always anytime we read anybody, you know, whether it's Secular whether it's supposedly sacred or whether it's actually sacred we have to view it through the lens of Scripture You know, is this true or is it not true?

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And if it's true, we can embrace it if it's not then we should reject it just like any other.

28:24

Amen I thought you were gonna say is it secular or J secular? No See thanks for being on the show today you can write us info and no compromise radio .com