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COURTSHIP or DATING: So What’s the Difference? Find out on IRON SHARPENS IRON Radio featuring guest author Dennis Gundersen!
Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth. Listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 14th day of September 2016 and I'm delighted to have back on the program Dennis Gunderson who is a Retired pastor he's retired from the pastoral ministry anyway, but he continues on in ministry.
Not only with speaking engagements and writing But also through his grace and truth books ministry and we'll be hearing more about that in a minute today. We are going to be talking about a very controversial issue.
One that all single people should take very seriously especially if they intend to be married one day and Also, obviously all parents should take this seriously if they have children in the home. Because these children will obviously reach an age when they will eventually most of them want to pursue some kind of a romantic relationship and This will be of great value to parents as they seek to equip their children on making proper decisions in the area of Courtship or dating and today we are going to find out so what's the difference and that's actually the title of a book That Dennis wrote courtship or dating?
So what's the difference and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron. Dennis Gunderson. I appreciate it Dennis and before we even get into the The book at hand tell us something about grace and truth books this publishing ministry that you founded a number of years ago.
Yes, well make available to unity some of the reformed books for children and for parents that we could see they were not yet been a number of years and and many of the books that you and I know from source a marked absence of those communities and those circles and so we Brought them in and the company just kind of expanded from there.
We've grown into a wider theological book source for believers really everywhere regardless of homeschooling or anything else so.
And why don't you share the the website of that book with our listeners?
Grace and truth books calm and the end is spelled out and should they hear me quote it. They say grace and truth and I don't recall what they find. Maybe I think it used to be a Baptist Church in Houston that they find and It may be a different site now, but we are grace and truth books calm.
Great. And tell us about some of the other books that you've written the last time that you were on The program. We had a discussion on your book your child's profession of faith. And it is interest. It's an interesting phenomenon that even though Baptists were built are supposed to be built on the foundation that Baptism Is an ordinance of the church that is exclusively? to be provided for Believers who are capable of demonstrating repentance and a credible profession of faith.
So therefore. That is one of the reasons they Historically have rejected the practice of infant baptism practiced by our brothers in Christ who are reformed in other Denominations such as the Presbyterians and some of the Dutch Reformed groups and some of the Reformed Anglican groups and so on.
But it is interesting that the problem would arise even amongst Baptists. That people were rushing their children at too young of an age to receive this ordinance when they really didn't have any idea what they Were doing.
Isn't. Wasn't that the real motivation behind. That were at least one of the motivations behind your book.
Yes, really is one of the key reasons that drove me to first preach on the subject years ago and then to Gradually work that into a booklet that grew into a book, you know, even recently I think it was something by Russell Moore.
I believe I was on the program talking about your child's profession of faith sometime in the last Month. Since then I read an article Online that the largest in baptisms in the Southern Baptist Convention for instance five and under of age.
That was pretty remarkable and then the author was decrying that you know, do we Really have a basis anymore today that it's with non-believers. Well, you can you can practice your alleged believers baptism in a way that does much the same thing, unfortunately.
Well, it's ironic that in essence those Baptists who do that who baptize very tiny children. Just because they may you know saying Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so. They are really in essence pedo-baptists because the term pedo really means child.
It doesn't even mean infant specific. That's right. So any. But this is not to disparage our brethren who we agree with on most of our theology. I'm speaking of the Presbyterians and the different conservative Bible believing Dutch Reform groups and of course, there are remnant of reformed Anglicans and and other groups that baptize infants and.
We love Those brothers dearly and in fact often have them in the pulpits of our churches to preach on other issues that we agree on. But it is still a serious issue. And in fact, in fact our pedo-baptist brethren would say it's a serious issue as well.
So.
But this.
This specific book we are talking about today. Courtship and dating. So what's the difference? What was the driving force for you? Initially thinking in your mind. I've got to write a book on this.
Probably my main reason at the time was noticing what I would call the recreational mindset of many in their romantic relationships seem of the people that I observed who were getting married even in so coming together in their relationship and We serious romantic relationships before ever getting married point in marriage, but that really was not What what a creational dating mindset maturely into adult life and frequently resulted in quite seriously.
Sometimes we if not now, let me put you on the spot here. I mean people do change in their.
Ideology their theology their practice over the years were you? Courting your what later became your wife before you were married or were you dating her?
Yes, I was very much of the same mindset. I'd say that we you know, we pretty much they have our times together we're just recreational times. You know because we're working in us to give us and it's meeting.
So that was good. We had a pretty recreational mindset ourselves, you know about life and many of the well.
Let me before I even go into your own Family and children. Let me. I guess I should have done this initially. If you could give us a definition of courtship as compared to Dating as you have been repeatedly calling it recreational dating.
What is the the stark contrast or difference there between courtship and dating?
And you know, I am very aware that not everyone who uses they wouldn't teaching on this. I've known people who I've known some and after they've explained to me what they will allow or not allow. Common to what goes on today.
So people use the terms pretty loosely these phenomenon. It began or on the 1920s as a common practice. That is it's the reasons that the roaring 20s of roaring which meant Outrageous at the time was the meaning of the word and the usage outrageous change in social norms was at home when we want to was not generally more common.
And the distinctive mark That divides the two for the most part is in everything in our romantic choice. Oh their guidance to consult them for wisdom to use and give us some Insight and guidance from their experience and you know Hopefully in a Christian home from the Word of God or a god-honoring marriage.
That does not have as its goal preparation for a god-honoring marriage that they are not trying to honor God or that they don't want to god-honoring marriage that is that's frequently is so.
But the.
We just want to have one of the opposites that want to have some Pleasing and this this may or may not lead towards marriage. That's really not important and parental input. It's part on this. I've asked for a raise of hands.
I said how many of you. Nearly zeros in this area and who you went with and almost every hand in the room goes up when I'm asking that to a group Of people say that are 40 or over. They will say their parents gave them pretty much nothing just let cut them loose to be under their own super but that was usually given was Frequently a curfew, you know, we you can go go where you want do what you want.
I'll just be in by 11 or be in by midnight, but towards marriage very common features of courtship. Well.
Obviously there is a huge population of people that the definition of courtship you gave would Not include because you have adults of all ages even going up into the senior citizen Age that do not have parents.
So I'm assuming that the definition of courtship would be Pursuing a romantic involvement with someone of the opposite sex obviously. And that would be for a marriage. For marriage as a goal, but obviously you're not certain when you initially begin the court that that's gonna be the the eventual Fulfillment of that that goal but but I'm assuming with it without the parents there.
Would you I guess substitute that with your elders or? They'll church elders.
Yeah, that is an option it's it's obviously an area that changes tremendously in its application. The older someone is you know, if you take a Widower something. Well, the one thing that changes is, you know, say if 64 years old.
Well, I'm not. I'm not really accountable to anyone in particular about who I seek out Romantic relationship with in the future if I were to say well, I want to remarry before I pass on to. Not in the same way that I would if I was a 16 or 18 year old, you know, very different so the topic even fades into you know a degree of irrelevance for someone our age.
But it would it it might be advisable, you know people ask me at times. Oh, what about it? Yeah, say what say if you're 20 years old and off at college. What are you going to do then? And what we did with our children was I recommended to them said, you know If you want to spend time with someone of the opposite sex that really interests you I would ask you to be accountable for that kind of time to Someone older that you have come to respect in your church, whether that's an elder or just someone older that's mature in the faith one of my sons he chose a professor there at the Masters College that he struck up a very close friendship with and That was actually would hold him to the same kind of standards as we would but now.
There are different circumstances involved in People's lives with regard to their parents. Well, first of all before I even ask that question when this book came about in your mind were your children still either younger than dating age or or Approaching that age where you wanted to Stop the the possibility of dating occurring where you wanted to guide them more into the approach of Courtship or were they already married out of the house and so on when you when you develop this concept for the book.
Yeah, they were actually all still at home. And I think without an exact recollection of what year it started, I think that the book formulated when at least some of them were in teenage years and. So that made it interesting because some of this was taking shape in my mind at the time and you know it was becoming clearer to me what my own convictions were and weren't and Obviously there in this whole area that it's really easily possible to slip over into some legalisms that are hard to give a basis for and One has to watch oneself and make sure you don't end up making rules or preferences that you Parentally have to apply Into the area of making those into mandates for other families, for instance.
It's one thing for dad to say. Well, this is what I'm going to expect. Well. And you know you one of the things a kid can understand is if your parents insist on this or that rule. Well, whether that's vindicatable from the word or not, they'll be him.
But.
Important to not that that dad not confuse his profligation that everybody's supposed to do. Yeah. Well.
What about a teenage? young man or young woman who come to faith they are born again, but their parents are not and Their parents are insisting that they marry somebody of the family religion whatever that may be.
Or You might even have parents who are racists and they Forbid your their children to debate to date I'm sorry to or even to pursue or any kind of a romantic relationship like courtship. With somebody of a different race.
I mean there are all kinds of things that that would give a young Christian in and when I say young I mean even somebody, you know of college years. If you think that there should be some kind of a Parental guidance in this courtship decision You may have horrendous counsel from parents or rules.
Yeah, you sure can and at that point, you know what really going to have to pray for discernment for the individual circumstance and Possibly get some godly counsel because there there will be times that parents, you know.
Lost parents could literally counsel you to pursue ungodly behavior I've known. Encouraged by their parents to sleep around, you know till the well. You'll you'll know better what makes you happy if you have sex a few times and so you should do that.
You know, we want you to do that. We encourage.
It might have been more typical with father and son but but today you even hear about those kind of things with mother and daughter. Which even in my lifetime? Was something that you would never have heard when I was a teenager or very rarely ever heard of mother and Encouraging her daughter to do something like that.
If you had Muslim parents who just insisted that their child well, you're you're going to marry Someone who's Muslim and that's that. I think there comes a point when it and an adult child become a Christian is going to have to say, you know, I'm now I'm sorry and I'm going to have to Separate myself from your laws your rules and To move out of the house into a different location.
Oh, no, why can you hear me fine? Okay.
That's weird, I don't hear these beeps on my end so. Okay, maybe you have a call coming in or something on your end. I mean oh but. The one of the things that.
That.
Puzzled me about the issue of dating versus courtship is That it would seem to me That if you have a strict model of courtship to follow Where immediately a.
A.
Person of the opposite sex is pursued specifically for marriage and for a permanent relationship. To me it would seem that the downside of that is that you would have people Targeting only those that they were extremely physically attracted to because obviously in the other scenario where there was more Casual dating going on and when I say casual, I'm not speaking about sexual relationships or anything like that.
But recreational as you were using that term, it would seem to me that a person involved in recreational dating may be going out to carnivals and the movies and to sporting events and all the other kinds of things that people do when they're involved in a romantic relationship or even just a recreational dating relationship.
They may find out wow this woman that I never would have looked at twice or vice versa. It could be a woman saying this this guy who I never even would have given a second thought to I I'm really finding myself falling in love with this person.
This is a really godly person this is a person with great depth the person who has a lot more going for them than I ever would have imagined and You know, whereas I'm assuming that people who are Courting people they're saying well this this woman.
I have been seeing in the other side of the church Sunday after Sunday, she is a knockout man, and I just can't get her out of my head. I'm gonna go after her. Doesn't that kind of make sense.
Opinions in the context of group observation. More church life. Or Interaction as families. Or they get to know one another and see them in that way. There's there's less of what you'd kind of call one-on-one pairing where they determine what they learn about the other person from just one-on-one time, but they pick up on the signals of learning what that other person is all about from a larger group context.
And. You know, maybe in addition to being a knockout this looks like she's gonna be she would actually make a great wife.
And we have to go. I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. There what we're saying.
Growing up there were a couple times that one of them would admit to me. That's a you know, this tracks me. She just looks can't I'm can't possibly imagine. Being married to her says life would just be miserable, you know, cuz she's just a she's a mess.
And we have to go to a break right now if you'd like to join us on the air. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a r n z e n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.
And I understand a topic like this, especially may give one a reason to remain anonymous because they may be embarrassed or they just feel more comfortable not Revealing their identity. I understand that so if you prefer to remain anonymous we will accommodate you and so.
But if that is not an issue, please at least give us your first name city and state or country of Residence when you write. That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away.
We'll be right back with Dennis Gunderson and our discussion on courtship or dating Chris Arnzen here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend. Dr. James White to tell you why.
Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries. I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.
I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson voddie Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated the pillars of what? G3 stands for Gospel grace and glory.
For more details go to g3 conference .com. That's g3 conference .com.
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Welcome back. This is Chris arms. And if you just tuned in our guest today for the full two hours is Dennis Gunderson. We've got 90 minutes to go on a discussion on courtship or dating. So what's the difference?
That's also the title of a book that he wrote that you can purchase through grace and truth books. Calm that's grace and truth books. Calm and the word end is spelled out. And. There's a whole bunch of other things that are definitely Things that you should add to your library shells or your study shells.
So go to that website as soon as possible. Our email address here for our discussion is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n z n at gmail .com and. We invite your questions for our guests and you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.
But we would prefer having your first name city and state and country. We have a first question here is from Tyler and mastic Beach, Long Island, New York. Who asks is it true that courtship and dating aren't?
Explicitly taught in the New Testament, but God has given his principles how to live a pure lifestyle for his glory.
Oh, yes, I'd say that's absolutely correct. You know, obviously the terms courtship or dating aren't found in scripture and In fact when you do a you know a search through the scriptures to see how our relationships were.
Between.
Partners of the opposite sex. Well, you can find about 18 to 20 different ways in which couples got together from reading them that. Presented at all with the goal of being exemplary or trying to indicate some method say, you know pre 1900s.
Compared to more the post 1920s dating tradition rules that are important commonly followed in that era. Then they are being followed now in the year in which dating is common.
Well Tyler, I guess what you are getting absolutely free of charge a copy of courtship or dating. So what's the difference. Compliments of our friends at grace and truth books? And that will be shipped to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible book service to ship out all of our winners Books and Bibles to them at no cost to you.
Or iron sharpens iron. So we want to thank both Dennis Gunderson and grace and truth books and Cumberland Valley Bible book service. For that gift to you. And the Cumberland Valley Bible book service again is CVB BS calm.
CV BBS calm. We have an anonymous listener from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Who asks the young man that I have fallen in love with is a Reformed Baptist and I happen to be the daughter of Presbyterian parents.
My parents although they are very fond of this young man Do take our differences on baptism very seriously and they although not forbidding me to pursue this relationship with this young man Have constantly been trying to direct me towards young men in the in our own church.
What should I do to be obedient to the scriptures in this situation? I truly do love this young man, and he loves me.
Yeah, I mean it's never even what I can detect. Even what she has said about her parents obedience to parently permission and to make a change. Believe it persuasion. Permit and time with and ultimately possibly to marry this Reformed Baptist young man is the case.
I don't I don't see any reason for her not to feel then encouraged that she may pursue that. Forbid this relationship and you you must marry someone more in these in these circles.
Well to get a little person to get a little personal here. You are a Baptist and a Reformed Baptist. What would you do as a parent if one of your children? was falling in love with or wanted to pursue in a courtship a relationship with somebody who is a Presbyterian or other kind of pedo-baptist.
You know what to me the really key thing is if they were making a godly choice. If this was someone that they were seeking out who I would have to say. You know this woman would make a great wife to do anything, but encourage the religious person into your life.
There are a lot of good reasons to on this for fun's sake here. You know I have it a little bit easy from the vantage point that I've got four sons. And so in all probability if my son the Reformed Baptist marries the girl who's a Presbyterian You know guess where she's probably going to church.
Most of the time he's going to be taking the headship and lead and say well if you marry me. This is where we're going to be raising our children. I don't think I would do this any differently if I had a daughter this young man.
You know. Or a pedo-baptist young man, and I knew that. Okay. They reformed the Presbyterian Church and the great joy with the transition into that.
How serious would the difference have to be in the religion of your children's romantic interests. For you to say no, I'm sorry. I'm not giving my blessing to this. I mean like for instance. You know we could go a lot farther afield than pedo-baptist we could say perhaps.
The young person that your son or daughter is interested in is a extreme Pentecostal Armenian Church. Or Perhaps even someone where you would have differences on the gospel itself a Roman Catholic. And on and on.
I could go further from the gospel. The point got that one of my son's just simply not pursuing that he knew and. She was an attractive girl. She was a nice girl. She had a lot of his relationship. That was not going to happen.
How about if the person especially if it was a woman because a woman According to the scriptures is supposed to be the submissive partner in The marriage relationship obviously an equal before God want to make that clear.
But submissive to her husband if the Catholic young lady Who was interested in your son and vice versa was was saying I'm not fully convinced of the gospel that you Proclaim, but I am willing to Submit to your son.
I am willing to go to his church. I am willing to hear sit under his preaching. I'm willing to raise our children according to your faith. How would you would it differ at all with you?
She had manifested that family converted going to do and her understandable that I would need You know to encourage my son to marry her. Would at least need where she had forsaken the teachings of the Catholic Church and understood that that is not.
From those idols to serve. And by the way.
To the anonymous Young lady in Pittsburgh. If you'd like to give me your name and address to mail you a free book. Is you have also won a book. Courtship or dating. What. So what's the difference. By Dennis Gunnarsson.
If you'd like that to provide for us your full name and mailing Address and of course, I will not announce that on the air so you don't have to worry about that. But if you'd like a copy of the book, that would be great to hear from you and.
The.
Issue of When when when parents come to faith later in life and they already have Children that have not been raised in the faith in their home They already have Relationships that they've developed with people of the opposite sex that becomes a lot more Difficult a situation to manage I would assume but I know for a fact from people I even Know personally in my life who have become very godly Christians and active members of their church.
But they came to faith at a point where their teenage children and children in their early 20s were already Involved with very serious relationships with people that did not share The parents faith, so how do you manage a situation like that?
Yes, we are these that can arise, you know, and that is manage in a godly direction. For instance, you know, let's. Here's where I'm going with that. I come to faith late in Christ and their children haven't even.
Come to the faith, you know, well, I I mean, I've got a I've got a son who is decidedly not a believer. I would not encourage him to Seek out or marry a godly. He would be wrong to do that. So he's not a Christian man.
Mm-hmm. And me to encourage a decent and reasonable wife. But and I of course pray for both of them, but they would come over and are not even believers.
If you could give us some Guidelines that you want to share with not only people who are of age to Be involved in a courtship or even those who are younger than that because eventually they most likely will.
And.
To their parents as well of some guidelines on What type of a person? They should be pursuing In regard to obviously somebody that shares their faith and what would be the the actual practical ways of approaching this person and getting them involved in this courtship relationship because I can tell you that That you know as a an adult man and perhaps this is a lot to do with the with the being tainted by a modern pluralistic society and all that kind of thing and and We have all even as Christians I think had our Consciousness seared to some degree or another just because of the culture, but I could tell you honestly, it would probably creep me out a little bit if a woman approached me and said I believe God wants you to be my husband and I'd like to start pursuing this, you know without even having ever Had any kind of real meaningful interaction with a person prior to that instance.
And I'm assuming a woman in this day and age, of course might feel equally as creeped out for lack of a better term. Unless this happens to be the person that they were hoping To be in a relationship already if they were seeing somebody from afar that they were wildly Attracted to or something that might be a totally different reaction.
But it if you could understand what I'm saying if you how do you respond with the nuts and bolts of this.
Yeah. Thankfully, you know, I imagine there have been instances where some families have. Some parents have encouraged their youth to look at it that way. I have not met any advocates of courtship myself who have gone about it that way, you know.
Either parentally approached the other parents or where the youth have. Interested in you with marriage in mind and so we can we start seeing one another? That seemed to become You know evident to the two of them more as I've mentioned in interaction in real people.
Spending time with one another say in church. But what. Maybe what we would call youth groups or other social functions where they'd get to know one another in that way. More than I was going to address but I lost track of the original.
That's okay. I was basically asking you to give practical nuts and bolts descriptions of how these relationships begin and I threw in there. The notion of how especially in the 21st century it could. I think it would creep out most people if somebody approached them and said I believe God has put it on my heart to marry you.
Or.
To pursue a marriage relationship with you one day, you know. Well that kind of a thing initially being thrust in somebody's face in our in our day and age I mean, we're not living in a third world world country or something where that kind of a thing would be more common especially with parents arranging marriages, but.
In the Western world and especially here in the United States, perhaps that seems like a pretty creepy Scenario and forgive me for constantly using that term, but I'm just being honest which about how I would feel I think.
Between how a courtship would start as compared to how a dating relationship would start would be. Dating generally begins. They'll say if you're the girl. I'm the guy I'm interested in. That begins with me saying hey the courtship not begin let's say with the approach of let's you and I get alone together.
It begins in larger social contexts where the two become interested in one another. Because they're interacting that could give and I haven't. I haven't seen any more detail than that. To which to speak to it.
So it frequently starts within their church or it's probably more common among homeschoolers. It begins Often in their homeschool co-op or their homeschool organizations, you know. Where they see one another at activities and they spend time together.
Begin to express to one another. You know even even had a context of their.
No, so I'm assuming from everything that you're saying you completely approve of churches or groups of young people in churches getting together in groups where there are Young men and young women recreational enjoying things like sporting events and Theatrical plays and and certain movies and you know going to restaurants.
We have a question that it's actually Interest to me because it has something to do even with with something that happened to me when I was a young single man.
But but.
CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York says I know this might sound like a corny question but in your opinion, is it ever appropriate for a young man or a young lady to invite someone of the opposite sex out with a group to go square dancing and I guess there are still places that do that.
And the reason why I Chuckled when I saw that is that my very first Christian girlfriend. She didn't wind up becoming my wife. But my very first Christian girlfriend, that's when we started our relationship.
She asked me to go square dancing because on Long Island at Jones Beach they had during the during the the warmer weather they had square dances and there was even some Christians involved in the band and I had never been square dancing in my life.
I'm from New York. I didn't even know people were doing that and and I went and and a relationship did develop. Wasn't God's will let it go any further after a couple of years. We we did get serious and we're Contemplating marriage, but it didn't happen.
But anyway, what is your opinion on? There are some fundamentalists obviously who don't believe any kind of dancing is appropriate, but square dancing is really kind of a tame. The version of dancing really but I don't know maybe you have a different opinion on.
That is the other question actually that's involved in that is it do you think it's appropriate for the woman to be? The one who approaches the young man.
First issue that the fellow has written in about I think that sounds to me like a perfectly permissible Activity from what I know about square dancing. It seems like a good good group environment quality time together in that would be both Entertaining and you'd you know, you'd pick up a little bit at least one would think about how this person interacts cooperatively with others and whether they're the kind of person that can and you know be enjoyable in a group of people and Work together with others or if they're kind of bullheaded and selfish and want everything to go their own way.
Environments like that you can you can tell something about people so I hold some activity see nothing to criticize about it. So on the matter of Girls inviting guys out, you know This this may be American area where I've seen more old one could give a biblical basis for but in General are not and so you are actually assigning many of these women to die as.
Spinsters in their 80s never having Relationship. Because I could tell you there's a lot of Christian men who are totally awkward in that whole area. But anyway.
Likelihood that no one is ever going to be seeking her out seems kind of dim to me. I hope I'm not incorrect about that. It would.
And CJ by the way, you're getting a free copy of courtship and dating so what's the difference. By our guest Dennis Gunnarsson compliments of grace and truth books and also Compliments of Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service will be mailing that out to you.
Thank you very much for contributing to the Program. We're reaching the top of the hour. We're going to go to our next station break. And if you would like to join us on the air with the question of your own, please email us at Chris Ornson at gmail .com.
Chris a are n ze n at gmail .com. Please give us at least your first name. City and state and country of residence. If you live outside the USA, but as I've been repeating you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.
Don't go away. We're gonna be right back with Dennis Gunnarsson after these messages. Hi, I'm Chris Ornson host of iron sharpens iron radio here to tell you about an exciting offer from world magazine.
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So we hope that you tune in and we hope that you can go to that conference. And of course last but not least don't forget about the g3 conference that I will be at. I will have an exhibitors booth at the g3 conference January 19th through the 21st in Atlanta, Georgia and The the lineup of speakers is absolutely tremendous.
I've never Seen a lineup this long or this impressive. I mean the speakers include my dear friend Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries Phil Johnson, who is the executive director of John MacArthur's ministry grace to you da Carson Paul Washer Stephen Lawson Todd Friel who has been on this program a couple of times has become one of my favorite guests Conrad and Bayway who is really I can honestly say One of the most powerful preachers of the gospel that I've ever heard in my life pastor Conrad and wayway.
Actually now he's dr. Conrad and Bayway. He is the pastor of kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa. I've known him since 1995. Have become a dear friend of his and he of me and I just Am looking forward to seeing him again face to face and hearing him preach.
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So I hope to see you there. If you could Dennis Gunderson as we continue on in our discussion on courtship or dating. So what's the difference if you could really lay out? Some of the serious ramifications of either practice.
For instance, give us some real practical Realistic reasons why dating in your opinion can be very dangerous.
Sure well, I think a lot of the. Problems with dating. Oh, I'm really here. I'm hearing myself now in the background. So really because you're sending fine over here. Distracting enough. I'm not sure I could continue to talk but I'll give it my best.
I'm getting an echo for everything. I'm saying. Generally seeing a relationship mostly about us going out spending money and having fun without having ability to Parents. Are we. Are we really responsible to other.
Are we? This is a big one for me. Honor and serve things. My wife and I asked each other. Thinking in terms of courtship at all when we were you know in our 20s and single and seeing one another but we did ask Her so if you will at the time and that was that and be a blessing.
Unitedly than they are individually and we came to the conclusion that we complemented one another enough and that we. From that complimentary we used our different strengths and features of our relationship enough.
So those are I find are important too often. In other words, you know, it's like this. Revolves around themselves to go do what they want to do spend the money. They want to spend have the fun. They want to have together any time just trying to minister to them and.
The echo went away. I'm glad to say the echo seems to have gone away. Oh great.
Yeah, because it never was occurring here on my end at least. We do have another anonymous listener in Westchester, New York who says my daughter has been a childhood friend of a boy in church. Ever since they were toddlers.
They have both grown to be teenagers. And still enjoy each other's company and they go out for recreational activities together very often supervised. Would you consider this an inappropriate dating relationship?
Because they neither one has yet to express that they have intentions to marry one another they seem Just like buddies for lack of a better term. But they are both attractive young people and of the opposite sex.
So we don't know where this is going to lead. But what would your suggestions be here?
I think they said they've known one another and enjoyed one another's company since they were very small, right? Right. Well, I would my main advice for most couples is Keep your relationship much on the for both sets of what you're thinking about one another.
How deep this is getting being deeply physically attracted to one another or not I mean one of my sons was very clear at one point. He said, you know, he said my physical attract to rate an extent that I'm going to need more.
He was very explicit. Maybe we are trustworthy rather not that that kind of when people ask me. One key thing that you would say is your communication with the parents, but this is not an isolated thing.
Even more important than not being isolated physically far more important is not being isolated Heart-wise and emotionally even a common mark of the dating tradition. Unfortunately the kind of time they'll spend together and they just to my mom growing up can guide you, you know, love will find a way You'll know her when you meet her and which I didn't have a time to consult.
My mother or some other godly people with good questions and say well could be doing that would be that would be better. That would tell us more about each other that would strengthen our relationship that would prepare us for marriage better.
That would that would make us better people that would make us serviceable to others more. There's none of that ever entered my mind and that's just I just attribute to that to the fact that I obviously I grew up around around nothing.
But dating so I didn't know any other ways.
When it comes to Being very different, you know the old saying opposites attract. Obviously You have already made it clear as most conservative Christians, I know would agree that a a Christian should never be Pursuing a romantic relationship of any kind with a non-christian, but having said that there are other things that can polarize people that are not that don't have anything to do with the gospel or the specific tenets of Christianity.
Is this a case-by-case scenario where you would think that there was either wisdom or lack of wisdom pursuing a relationship whose personality and culture are Completely 180 degrees opposite from you.
I mean, what would the Any advice that you would have in that area?
Yeah, that is one of the most interesting areas of you know. The way of a man with a woman if you will like the Proverbs says. It's a mysterious thing. One of those things the Proverbs writer says that he did not understand.
Yeah the more variable the more different and unique those were. The possibility of some significant obstacles to them. Having a Happy conflict free relationship, you know is going to be. I've known of nonetheless of People in extremely different upbringings and cultures and family backgrounds.
Who have who have managed to make it work. Sometimes those things make people.
More.
Enjoyable to one another there seems like their their joy and delight in one another increases as a result of that and sometimes it results in a increased collisions, you know and So much of that depends upon how those people respond to those factors the relationship with someone who's very different from them.
And they they manage to enjoy the differences. I found that young men, you know who are trained to think in terms of a Very high degree of authority for instance in themselves in the marriage relationship.
They they have a harder time adapting to a young lady. That's extremely different personality wise from them and they they seem to have difficulty distinguishing Her differences and how she processes information and thinks things through distinguishing that from just outright Unsubmission when it may be nothing of the sort Which is a problem in such a different way that you can learn a great deal from her.
In terms of the family decision that you make it's among a people group that I won't name here now for this purpose. I'm aware of a young woman who married a man from that tribal group and we believe it was the first Marriage of a white American to one of these three.
Wow as tribal people too. And so there they have not gone through a lot of transformation. Well, you're talking about real tribal when you use that term. Yes, you're very tribal. Yeah, and a very small tribe as well.
So that's how we knew this much historically about it to realize that it was probably the first marriage into that Into that tribe because there's just not that many of them. And they had some big big hurdles to get over but they've managed to do it and seem to enjoy one another.
Oh, so the they have it seems overcome by God's grace those those obstacles. Yes. Yeah, no, praise God and of course. Most married couples I know are overcoming obstacles for their entire lives until they're in glory.
I.
Like to still sometimes a mystery to me. She'll say something and I'll thank you. You think what.
Do you have any words of a challenge chastisement to parents That have been overbearing and I would assume I mean, I know that this happens with parents and their sons, but I would assume The tendency would be more likely to be with parents and their daughters Where there is just an over restriction on what?
They expect from any young man to be worthy of a relationship of any kind with their daughter and Sometimes, you know, it would be I mean, I'm not gonna mention his name But I have a friend who is a Christian and I couldn't help but just bellow laughing every time he would tell me about These young men who had come calling upon his daughter and he would scare them away constantly over.
You know, he was showing them his firearm collection and all that kind of thing but.
You know, I mean this can really be Traumatizing to a young lady. I'm sure if the if this reaches to a point of Absurdity and in even like I brought up before possibly bigotry being involved in it racial bigotry or something like that where Couldn't you press a young person to a breaking point where they rebel and they just run away and they.
Pursue whoever they want. I've seen that happen. It is possible. I've counseled parents that you must not have unrealistic expectations. For instance even forgetting yourself say I'll take them back sometimes to themselves and say, you know How much sure were you when you married your wife, you know, and you were that 24 year old or 19 year old or whatever you?
Obviously you had a long way to go if some of the basics are in place. Well, what really are you waiting for, you know, what what are you insisting upon that is so crucial that you are making them Continue to wait and I you know, I I know of some parents that have let this go on too long and they've got some Older singles, you know who don't seem to have any any opportunities and any any hopeful Suitors on the horizon and I think some of that's can be due to the over application and extreme application of some of these things so.
Yeah, I have I have critiqued and advised some parents to lighten up on some of these things and to see to it that they view their you know untouchable and That no one is good enough for for my child.
It's just a just an unrealistic way of looking at the Christian life and not helpful at all.
We do have another anonymous listener who says My son is an adult in his 20s who has had a relationship with a woman. For years even before I became a Christian they have children together on occasion.
They have spent the evening in my home in The same bedroom and their children obviously with them. Is this ever appropriate since they are not married and I am a Christian. But it's something that has been so much a part of our family structure even before coming to faith that I'm really in a Between a rock and a hard place on this issue.
In other words, they're still unmarried.
Yes, and they don't live with this person permanently when they visit though, they Will frequently be in the same room, but the children.
Apparently in the same room leave it to each individual household to practice what they feel compelled in conscience to do. In this case I've known of some who told You know adult children who aren't married that when when you visit here You are not going to be private in the same room or certainly not going to sleep together in the same.
Others have allowed it. I can't think of any piece of principle that I would bind anyone with and say this is what you really must or must not do one probably the Most important remark, I suppose. I think I could make at this point is merely that I don't see any particular profit in Christians insisting that non-believers behave like Christians.
Within limits, obviously, you know, you're not. You're not going to allow your Non-christian friends to come into your home and and have an orgy or something. Come into your home and start smoking Potter, you know shooting up heroin or something, but you would not cross that self.
Am I gaining anything by requiring? non-christian friends and relatives to Be like me when they're here.
Well, I guess in the area of your children your adult children. Sharing a room it gives it may give the impression that you are approving of.
Fornication. And I think the only way you can make it if you want to avoid giving that impression. Then just make sure verbally you've told them that you know, we're we're going to allow you to stay in the same room.
But we don't approve. Right. The best way to make sure that you're not giving what appears to be tacit approval is to state your opinion.
And. The issue of Children brings a whole new scenario into the equation. What about Children. Teenage children and children in their early 20s, especially who perhaps are a little older. Who you know, your son is involved with a young lady who is Not of your faith.
And perhaps not even of his faith. Perhaps he is a Christian but who fell into sin and he impregnates this young lady. What obligation? Does this young man in a Christian home have to the young lady that he impregnated.
And. Is there any obligation? It even was considered an old-fashioned.
Sign of wholesomeness in some degree for the young man to take responsibility and marry that woman that was even considered an old-fashioned virtue, but is that really a good Christian principle. And what would be the Guidelines for what responsibility that young man does have to that woman?
Obviously he would have to take care of the child. That's almost a given with Christians.
It should be a given but what about the young lady if I followed all that correctly. A I could only Simply say without without acquaintance with a particular situation, you know in which I could give counsel.
In a real life when we say that certainly it's requisite that he you know be supportive that he'd take care of the financial obligations and the costs and you know, the rate the raising of that child in terms of those kinds of things, but.
Yeah, I would not I would not see a an absolute obligation to marry that would be something under discussion for those families to decide.
Do you think it would be? Absolutely prohibited if the person Especially the young woman we're talking about was not a Christian. Would that be something that the young man should absolutely not do if he is a Christian?
Yes, yes, certainly. He should not. And.
Well, that is obviously a heavier issue, but it does exist and I'm sure that there are countless numbers of people who may wind up eventually hearing the interview who are in that dilemma. There's all kinds of things that get.
More complicated in our modern world even things that have existed for centuries. They still in our day and age. There's all kinds of insanity going on in there.
Yeah, we're gonna face more and more peculiar moral dilemmas You know that are gonna make some interesting bridges to cross to figure out exactly what we would Counsel someone to do.
We are going to our final station break right now and If you'd like to join us on the air We've got about a half hour left with Dennis Gunderson. If you'd like to join us our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state in your country of residence if you live outside the USA. But of course as we've been saying you can remain anonymous and a lot of people have today.
We probably broke a record for anonymous listeners today. But if you if it makes you feel more comfortable, we will accommodate you. The email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
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Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God or am I trying to please Man, if I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.
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See the Long Island galleries display ad at iron sharpens iron radio Dot-com. Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with a half-hour to Go has been and will continue to be Dennis Gunderson.
He is the founder of grace and truth books. We are discussing one of the books that he wrote himself courtship and dating so what's the difference if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our Email address is Chris Arnson at gmail .com.
Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Another one of the touchy issues Today Dennis is age difference. Today we look scandalously upon People with wide age gaps Approaching somebody else romantically and sometimes there's very good reason it's because the person is an evil individual.
But what you do have a very you know, the the silence in the Bible is deafening about that. As far as you know, we hear that for instance even the mother of our Lord and Savior was probably 15 and Joseph was probably an older man.
So these this gets into very controversial waters that we're treading in here, but I even know of one circumstance where an older man under the protest of the young lady's family he married a woman 30 years his junior and.
It was done with the protest of the young lady's family and Actually, it wound up turning into an unpleasant circumstance. But what do you say about that when when the Bible doesn't specifically give age?
Gaps that are acceptable and so on. And of course, we're not we're not in any way here shape or form here talking about pedophilia and this kind of evil disgusting Either behavior or inclination. That kind of a thing is worthy of in my opinion the capital punishment.
But I'm speaking of things that are within Normal and legal barriers here.
Yeah, well, I I like to make it my policy to have very little to say in terms of Regulations, you know about things that the scriptures have very little or nothing to say this at all for. Getting alarmed about 30 year old who's interested in your 20 year old or a 40 year old interested in your 25 year old.
Much of the time if they are manifesting Traits of mature adults and just for unity in the Christian faith and at other points in their thinking where they're Compatible if you will then I I don't see what there is to be alarmed about.
Unfortunately, I think what happens is, you know, any time you've got Guidelines of the Word of God and the Christian faith would provide Oh invariably, they're going to try to come up with their own wisdom.
They're doing it and try to they're going to try to think up their own Guidelines that are allegedly wise and sound thinking and so they'll make up rules of their own and Cultures do that and our culture is doing it instead of calling evil What the Word of God calls evil and good with the Word of God calls good.
They'd simply read you all the lines and say we just way too big a gap, you know, they can't work together. Well, it's just and it's baseless. Do you think though that a.
Man Should respect the parents of a woman that he was interested in romantically. He should respect the girl's parents to such an extent that he would implicitly listen To their prohibition. Because I mean you you mentioned some barriers that most people perhaps would feel fairly Comfortable with.
But you you know, you're gonna have situations sometimes where a man in his 50s may be interested in your 18 year old daughter. You know, I could happen. So so should the man just immediately back off if if the parents of that girl, which I think most would say Sorry, pal.
No dice, you know.
Yes, I think I think he is biblically obliged to expect that because right. Right now she's in submission to him. If you marry her guess who she's in submission to, you know, that's right. We haven't another.
We have another anonymous listener from Suffolk County, Long Island, New York who wants to know your opinion on.
Christian dating websites.
You know, I've I've never looked at one but I can say this being a married man. That's a good good sign. Yeah. Very good sign. Yes, I I have known a few people that have used them and with them and that hasn't led me to theorize a little bit about this even with even among some Couples neither who met one another like an odd thing to what I have observed.
Words communicate the thoughts of minds and when people are isolated to communicating with each other Through words and I hear how you think and I see how you express yourself and I see how you respond To words from others and what you say back.
And I'm not I'm not Looking at you and watching how you know. Your body moves across the room and all of this can diminish greatly when most of our relationship is formed. That has resulted in some people understand things with dating.
Is that Personal interaction that people with dating and very common that normally happens with I tend to. You know I've told people that I think that the recreational mindset of dating. Fun to do. These kinds of things Relationships have been among those that I've known who have met through such sites and that has been my theory about it.
I think a lot of those are verbally based relationships that got strong in the context of minds interacting first.
Yeah, I know one couple that Christian couple that were married and from what I last heard they were very very happily married. I heard about another Christian couple that got married through a dating site.
But I haven't heard from them in years. So I don't know how that developed but the one couple the the young lady I knew when she was single and she was a very sweet woman and Having a hard time finding the right Man she desperately did want to Have a husband and have children and she eventually met this this Christian man in a different state and They met and got married and they apparently very happy now.
I'm I've heard though from other people that some of these sites There's two things number one Some of these sites use the term even if they identify themselves as Christian sites they use that term very loosely.
Yeah, you could be a Mormon or whatever you could Be a Christian scientist. You could be anybody that just believes that Jesus existed in some shape or form. And you and you also I'm assuming Something that jumps out at me when I think about the concept I'm assuming it's a lot easier to lie About who you are and so on then if you are Developing a relationship face to face with somebody and you know You see where they go to church and on and on whereas somebody on the Internet.
I mean sometimes of course Unless you're involved in Skype or something You're not even gonna know if this person is even really of the opposite sex in our day and age it could be a masquerading as Somebody else they could be a pedophile.
They could be somebody who is Well, I've least wouldn't it wouldn't be a pedophile, but it's somebody just Who's a predator looking for a younger person?
What could be somebody who wants to? Financially rob someone bilk them out of their savings account and that could be. In either direction that could be a woman Predator who was just seeking to financially devastate somebody.
But if you.
Actually happened in the case. I knew of it was a male predator, but he literally talked a woman into moving to where he was and Bringing her money and emptying her accounts and helping to helping him to get a business off the ground and it was a mess.
But the concept you're obviously you're not opposed to it, there's nothing really innately Unbiblical about a dating service as long as you are seeking a union with a Person who is a true Bible believing Christian, so you're not only evenly yield.
That's right. Yeah, there really is nothing innately wrong with it and it and it does have some strengths. Yeah.
As far as the the old-fashioned concept of Asking your your romantic interests father. For permission. I mean sometimes it's for the marriage itself, but sometimes it's even a Lot further than that. May I have permission to?
Court your daughter. Do you think that that should be the rule of the young man doing that? Or is that just a nice added factor, but not necessarily a requirement?
Given that the scriptures don't help young people that Grow into making good decisions for themselves. And so, you know the wise parent the rules and regulations on his younger children and then gradually You know removes the restraints.
Watching them make more and more good decisions under under first training and then just guidance and then more hands-off guidance. And then eventually just letting them make decisions. Well, no one can say exactly what age each of those Stages is reached but the younger the to submission is.
You know, if he offended if she was off at college and you know at 21 years old a 24 year old guy, I would be teen years old and still in my home. Well, he would have to know that you bet you've got to ask me.
But Gosh you will see and where they will go and you the young man have no right to bypass that so you're the ages But I think is in place increasingly and very.
Do you have any other? Warnings. To listeners that they should take heed to in areas. I may have overlooked here. That our listeners may have overlooked.
So we've been talking to see if there's anything else subject wise that we haven't covered in. The themes at least that I brought up there have been have been discussed so. Now into a two-hour radio program.
We get to cover a lot of territory.
Yeah, well, that's that's a rare thing in our day and age because most Christian radio stations a Want soundbite kind of information. They don't really want people to get into depth on issues and Especially theology.
That is an area that I know that a lot of major Christian Radio stations could care less about. They are more Depending upon what network it is. Some of them would much more would be much more happy if you stuck with conservative politics because It seems that a lot of the networks Could care less about offending political liberals.
But once you start tip stepping on the toes of people with heretical theology, then that's something they don't want you to do.
Many times they feel they've been really thorough and covered a lot of ground in a in a 15 early. Just barely scratched the surface. All right, exactly.
One thing that I've heard I was actually Somewhat surprised to hear from a brother in Christ that I know Who was married. He was raised and married in India in an arranged marriage. He is a Christian and He was married and I can't remember if his family and his bride's family were Christian or if they became Christian later.
I don't remember that that That factor, but anyway, he's he is thrilled That he got married that way and of course He got the winning lottery ticket as far as I can. That's concerned because he happened to be providentially blessed by God With somebody that he is still after many years Even maybe maybe several decades of marriage.
He's still madly in love with his wife. And he actually is happy that he was married in that way. But that is the kind of a thing that is also not Mandated in the scripture, but was that a part of the culture of Jesus's day or was that not necessarily a part of every family's.
Habit is in regard to arranged marriages, especially when you're talking about obedient Jews. What do you know the the biblical Atmosphere of marriage in regard to that arranged marriages.
Yeah, I don't have a deep acquaintance with what it was like in the days of Jesus. Earlier in more patriarchal times, you know, I think that arranged marriages were extremely common. So you have going back to the book of Genesis for instance, I think by the time of Jesus day traditions like that were lingering and Frequently practiced but I don't think they were the only probably in many cases.
A single was even free to you know pursue and express an interest in someone of their own Choosing probably quite off street on that to really pin that down. One of the things I do like to make clear to families.
However about today is that I Do get asked by young people at times does courtship? Imply or include arranged marriage and I give them a resounding no on that. So It's not that I think the arranged marriage.
It's been done, you know, we have.
We can't could be because though they would die if they had divorced but especially if it was a woman.
But they've just got to stay in the relationship. You know is the fact is then penalties or there are no options for the woman if she were to get out of the marriage. Arrange marriage. Cross point and our views on courtship, tell me something about your personal thoughts on.
The importance of Physical sexual attraction to the person that you intend to marry. There may be some It's probably a tiny minority of people. But there may be some who perhaps even going through a fad where they May even consider themselves a martyr for love they may very deeply care about a person that they have no physical or sexual attraction to and And perhaps in an attempt to either be very pious and overtly Religious and putting their faith Before anything else they pursue a marriage with this person.
But is there would you say that that is is unwise if you look at a long-lasting future? With free from as many conflicts as possible that and even temptations from those outside the marriage that that a sexual attraction should be a important factor in this.
It looks like someone told me that I see great quality. I'll take a young man telling me I see fine qualities in this young woman. She would make a good wife, but I'm not the least bit attracted to her.
Does it encourage him to be Careful about whether they should really wanted to Marry her. If it was a strong desire on his part to marry her because of her probably even encourage him that that will at least develop because.
Do you find that? Preceding a couple being married. There's some remark made in the historical narratives about you know He found her beautiful, and you know he was pleased upon by the Spirit of God merely by accident.
It appears to almost be part of the process that well. Towards her because.
Yeah, yeah the songs of Solomon certainly are a. Even though they have other pictures bigger pictures in mind. It's certainly using the passionate love and even attraction to the spouse and. We do have Aaron in Indianapolis, Indiana.
Who says do you believe God has one person in mind for each of us in marriage or merely? One who falls into biblical principles. I don't think I may be wrong, but I don't think Aaron. It means that with polygamy is an option when she stresses one person.
It may be more in the realm of predestination. This God. Do you believe God has one person in mind? For each of us in marriage. So if you could I have a feeling I know where you're going with that, but if you could comment.
Yeah, yeah in the sovereignty of God over all of life. And I may state this in a way. That's not exactly how he might expect but Believing in the sovereignty of God over all for you ahead of time life and yet at the same time does that mean it's your mail involves a I've told people for years say what what's the sure God is.
What happened? In terms of the plan of God, you know, you will find her because that's that's God's plan. Relation on you is not. It's not as though you've got to locate who this mystery woman is that God's picked out.
Your obligation is to you are free to pursue among godly women. Anyone who is available right and doing the will of God for you merely means pursuing Godly Christian women and making a choice from among them and you will find when you have done that.
But ultimately you'll have done the will of God and you'll end up with who God designed for you to have. Right, right?
And it's somewhat connected to the whole issue of evangelism. We don't know who the elect are, but we're supposed to evangelize knowing that God's elect will Come forth and will receive the gospel. Obviously that doesn't mean we're supposed to be pursuing romantic relationships with any woman.
And I'm hoping that God would just pull the elect ones Out of the crowd for us. I don't mean that but I'm saying that there are certain things That since we do not know the mind of God, we are finite and sinful while on this earth we have no idea what the secret things of God are and that would include that would include that issue and and it could be a dangerous thing to think that you have by revelatory means Been given some kind of knowledge from God.
Yes. This is the woman that you were supposed to marry etc. But I can tell you I know one brother in Christ a dear friend who's a pastor. He met his wife and it was one of those rare circumstances of love at first sight.
He approached her. He said I believe that God wants us to be together. She thought he was nuts. She avoided him like the plague for a certain period of time then they started courting and they got married and they've been married for Probably close to 30 years now.
Well, Aaron you've got our last copy of the book courtship and dating. So what's the difference for the rest of you listening who would like to purchase this book go to grace and the truth books calm.
Grace and truth books calm. Thank you so much. Dennis Gunnarsson. I look forward to having you back in the program in the near future. And I want everybody to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.
We look forward to hearing from you and your questions tomorrow for our guests on iron sharpens iron radio.