September 14, 2016 Show with Dennis Gundersen on “Courtship or Dating: So What’s the Difference?”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed when we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity who are living on the planet Earth. Listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 14th day of September 2016 and I'm delighted to have back on the program Dennis Gunderson who is a Retired pastor he's retired from the pastoral ministry anyway, but he continues on in ministry.

Not only with speaking engagements and writing But also through his grace and truth books ministry and we'll be hearing more about that in a minute today. We are going to be talking about a very controversial issue.

One that all single people should take very seriously especially if they intend to be married one day and Also, obviously all parents should take this seriously if they have children in the home. Because these children will obviously reach an age when they will eventually most of them want to pursue some kind of a romantic relationship and This will be of great value to parents as they seek to equip their children on making proper decisions in the area of Courtship or dating and today we are going to find out so what's the difference and that's actually the title of a book That Dennis wrote courtship or dating?

So what's the difference and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron. Dennis Gunderson. I appreciate it Dennis and before we even get into the The book at hand tell us something about grace and truth books this publishing ministry that you founded a number of years ago.

Yes, well make available to unity some of the reformed books for children and for parents that we could see they were not yet been a number of years and and many of the books that you and I know from source a marked absence of those communities and those circles and so we Brought them in and the company just kind of expanded from there.

We've grown into a wider theological book source for believers really everywhere regardless of homeschooling or anything else so.

And why don't you share the the website of that book with our listeners?

Grace and truth books calm and the end is spelled out and should they hear me quote it. They say grace and truth and I don't recall what they find. Maybe I think it used to be a Baptist Church in Houston that they find and It may be a different site now, but we are grace and truth books calm.

Great. And tell us about some of the other books that you've written the last time that you were on The program. We had a discussion on your book your child's profession of faith. And it is interest. It's an interesting phenomenon that even though Baptists were built are supposed to be built on the foundation that Baptism Is an ordinance of the church that is exclusively? to be provided for Believers who are capable of demonstrating repentance and a credible profession of faith.

So therefore. That is one of the reasons they Historically have rejected the practice of infant baptism practiced by our brothers in Christ who are reformed in other Denominations such as the Presbyterians and some of the Dutch Reformed groups and some of the Reformed Anglican groups and so on.

But it is interesting that the problem would arise even amongst Baptists. That people were rushing their children at too young of an age to receive this ordinance when they really didn't have any idea what they Were doing.

Isn't. Wasn't that the real motivation behind. That were at least one of the motivations behind your book.

Yes, really is one of the key reasons that drove me to first preach on the subject years ago and then to Gradually work that into a booklet that grew into a book, you know, even recently I think it was something by Russell Moore.

I believe I was on the program talking about your child's profession of faith sometime in the last Month. Since then I read an article Online that the largest in baptisms in the Southern Baptist Convention for instance five and under of age.

That was pretty remarkable and then the author was decrying that you know, do we Really have a basis anymore today that it's with non-believers. Well, you can you can practice your alleged believers baptism in a way that does much the same thing, unfortunately.

Well, it's ironic that in essence those Baptists who do that who baptize very tiny children. Just because they may you know saying Jesus loves me this I know for the Bible tells me so. They are really in essence pedo-baptists because the term pedo really means child.

It doesn't even mean infant specific. That's right. So any. But this is not to disparage our brethren who we agree with on most of our theology. I'm speaking of the Presbyterians and the different conservative Bible believing Dutch Reform groups and of course, there are remnant of reformed Anglicans and and other groups that baptize infants and.

We love Those brothers dearly and in fact often have them in the pulpits of our churches to preach on other issues that we agree on. But it is still a serious issue. And in fact, in fact our pedo-baptist brethren would say it's a serious issue as well.

So.

But this.

This specific book we are talking about today. Courtship and dating. So what's the difference? What was the driving force for you? Initially thinking in your mind. I've got to write a book on this.

Probably my main reason at the time was noticing what I would call the recreational mindset of many in their romantic relationships seem of the people that I observed who were getting married even in so coming together in their relationship and We serious romantic relationships before ever getting married point in marriage, but that really was not What what a creational dating mindset maturely into adult life and frequently resulted in quite seriously.

Sometimes we if not now, let me put you on the spot here. I mean people do change in their.

Ideology their theology their practice over the years were you? Courting your what later became your wife before you were married or were you dating her?

Yes, I was very much of the same mindset. I'd say that we you know, we pretty much they have our times together we're just recreational times. You know because we're working in us to give us and it's meeting.

So that was good. We had a pretty recreational mindset ourselves, you know about life and many of the well.

Let me before I even go into your own Family and children. Let me. I guess I should have done this initially. If you could give us a definition of courtship as compared to Dating as you have been repeatedly calling it recreational dating.

What is the the stark contrast or difference there between courtship and dating?

And you know, I am very aware that not everyone who uses they wouldn't teaching on this. I've known people who I've known some and after they've explained to me what they will allow or not allow. Common to what goes on today.

So people use the terms pretty loosely these phenomenon. It began or on the 1920s as a common practice. That is it's the reasons that the roaring 20s of roaring which meant Outrageous at the time was the meaning of the word and the usage outrageous change in social norms was at home when we want to was not generally more common.

And the distinctive mark That divides the two for the most part is in everything in our romantic choice. Oh their guidance to consult them for wisdom to use and give us some Insight and guidance from their experience and you know Hopefully in a Christian home from the Word of God or a god-honoring marriage.

That does not have as its goal preparation for a god-honoring marriage that they are not trying to honor God or that they don't want to god-honoring marriage that is that's frequently is so.

But the.

We just want to have one of the opposites that want to have some Pleasing and this this may or may not lead towards marriage. That's really not important and parental input. It's part on this. I've asked for a raise of hands.

I said how many of you. Nearly zeros in this area and who you went with and almost every hand in the room goes up when I'm asking that to a group Of people say that are 40 or over. They will say their parents gave them pretty much nothing just let cut them loose to be under their own super but that was usually given was Frequently a curfew, you know, we you can go go where you want do what you want.

I'll just be in by 11 or be in by midnight, but towards marriage very common features of courtship. Well.

Obviously there is a huge population of people that the definition of courtship you gave would Not include because you have adults of all ages even going up into the senior citizen Age that do not have parents.

So I'm assuming that the definition of courtship would be Pursuing a romantic involvement with someone of the opposite sex obviously. And that would be for a marriage. For marriage as a goal, but obviously you're not certain when you initially begin the court that that's gonna be the the eventual Fulfillment of that that goal but but I'm assuming with it without the parents there.

Would you I guess substitute that with your elders or? They'll church elders.

Yeah, that is an option it's it's obviously an area that changes tremendously in its application. The older someone is you know, if you take a Widower something. Well, the one thing that changes is, you know, say if 64 years old.

Well, I'm not. I'm not really accountable to anyone in particular about who I seek out Romantic relationship with in the future if I were to say well, I want to remarry before I pass on to. Not in the same way that I would if I was a 16 or 18 year old, you know, very different so the topic even fades into you know a degree of irrelevance for someone our age.

But it would it it might be advisable, you know people ask me at times. Oh, what about it? Yeah, say what say if you're 20 years old and off at college. What are you going to do then? And what we did with our children was I recommended to them said, you know If you want to spend time with someone of the opposite sex that really interests you I would ask you to be accountable for that kind of time to Someone older that you have come to respect in your church, whether that's an elder or just someone older that's mature in the faith one of my sons he chose a professor there at the Masters College that he struck up a very close friendship with and That was actually would hold him to the same kind of standards as we would but now.

There are different circumstances involved in People's lives with regard to their parents. Well, first of all before I even ask that question when this book came about in your mind were your children still either younger than dating age or or Approaching that age where you wanted to Stop the the possibility of dating occurring where you wanted to guide them more into the approach of Courtship or were they already married out of the house and so on when you when you develop this concept for the book.

Yeah, they were actually all still at home. And I think without an exact recollection of what year it started, I think that the book formulated when at least some of them were in teenage years and. So that made it interesting because some of this was taking shape in my mind at the time and you know it was becoming clearer to me what my own convictions were and weren't and Obviously there in this whole area that it's really easily possible to slip over into some legalisms that are hard to give a basis for and One has to watch oneself and make sure you don't end up making rules or preferences that you Parentally have to apply Into the area of making those into mandates for other families, for instance.

It's one thing for dad to say. Well, this is what I'm going to expect. Well. And you know you one of the things a kid can understand is if your parents insist on this or that rule. Well, whether that's vindicatable from the word or not, they'll be him.

But.

Important to not that that dad not confuse his profligation that everybody's supposed to do. Yeah. Well.

What about a teenage? young man or young woman who come to faith they are born again, but their parents are not and Their parents are insisting that they marry somebody of the family religion whatever that may be.

Or You might even have parents who are racists and they Forbid your their children to debate to date I'm sorry to or even to pursue or any kind of a romantic relationship like courtship. With somebody of a different race.

I mean there are all kinds of things that that would give a young Christian in and when I say young I mean even somebody, you know of college years. If you think that there should be some kind of a Parental guidance in this courtship decision You may have horrendous counsel from parents or rules.

Yeah, you sure can and at that point, you know what really going to have to pray for discernment for the individual circumstance and Possibly get some godly counsel because there there will be times that parents, you know.

Lost parents could literally counsel you to pursue ungodly behavior I've known. Encouraged by their parents to sleep around, you know till the well. You'll you'll know better what makes you happy if you have sex a few times and so you should do that.

You know, we want you to do that. We encourage.

It might have been more typical with father and son but but today you even hear about those kind of things with mother and daughter. Which even in my lifetime? Was something that you would never have heard when I was a teenager or very rarely ever heard of mother and Encouraging her daughter to do something like that.

If you had Muslim parents who just insisted that their child well, you're you're going to marry Someone who's Muslim and that's that. I think there comes a point when it and an adult child become a Christian is going to have to say, you know, I'm now I'm sorry and I'm going to have to Separate myself from your laws your rules and To move out of the house into a different location.

Oh, no, why can you hear me fine? Okay.

That's weird, I don't hear these beeps on my end so. Okay, maybe you have a call coming in or something on your end. I mean oh but. The one of the things that.

That.

Puzzled me about the issue of dating versus courtship is That it would seem to me That if you have a strict model of courtship to follow Where immediately a.

A.

Person of the opposite sex is pursued specifically for marriage and for a permanent relationship. To me it would seem that the downside of that is that you would have people Targeting only those that they were extremely physically attracted to because obviously in the other scenario where there was more Casual dating going on and when I say casual, I'm not speaking about sexual relationships or anything like that.

But recreational as you were using that term, it would seem to me that a person involved in recreational dating may be going out to carnivals and the movies and to sporting events and all the other kinds of things that people do when they're involved in a romantic relationship or even just a recreational dating relationship.

They may find out wow this woman that I never would have looked at twice or vice versa. It could be a woman saying this this guy who I never even would have given a second thought to I I'm really finding myself falling in love with this person.

This is a really godly person this is a person with great depth the person who has a lot more going for them than I ever would have imagined and You know, whereas I'm assuming that people who are Courting people they're saying well this this woman.

I have been seeing in the other side of the church Sunday after Sunday, she is a knockout man, and I just can't get her out of my head. I'm gonna go after her. Doesn't that kind of make sense.

Opinions in the context of group observation. More church life. Or Interaction as families. Or they get to know one another and see them in that way. There's there's less of what you'd kind of call one-on-one pairing where they determine what they learn about the other person from just one-on-one time, but they pick up on the signals of learning what that other person is all about from a larger group context.

And. You know, maybe in addition to being a knockout this looks like she's gonna be she would actually make a great wife.

And we have to go. I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. There what we're saying.

Growing up there were a couple times that one of them would admit to me. That's a you know, this tracks me. She just looks can't I'm can't possibly imagine. Being married to her says life would just be miserable, you know, cuz she's just a she's a mess.

And we have to go to a break right now if you'd like to join us on the air. Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a r n z e n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And I understand a topic like this, especially may give one a reason to remain anonymous because they may be embarrassed or they just feel more comfortable not Revealing their identity. I understand that so if you prefer to remain anonymous we will accommodate you and so.

But if that is not an issue, please at least give us your first name city and state or country of Residence when you write. That's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Dennis Gunderson and our discussion on courtship or dating Chris Arnzen here and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend. Dr. James White to tell you why.

Hi, I'm James White of Alpha and Omega ministries. I hope you join me at the g3 conference hosted by Pastor Josh Bice and Praise Mill Baptist Church at the Georgia International Convention Center in Atlanta January 19th through the 21st in celebration of the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation.

I'll be joined by Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson voddie Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson Rosaria Butterfield Todd Friel and a host of other speakers who are dedicated the pillars of what? G3 stands for Gospel grace and glory.

For more details go to g3 conference .com. That's g3 conference .com.

Thanks, James. Make sure you greet me at the iron sharpens iron exhibit booth while you're there.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own you need to read.

Solid ground Christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of preachers to heart. The mission of solid ground Christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future and To publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish God-centered Christ exalting books for all ages. We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid ground books calm That's solid-ground-books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present You can unearth from solid ground.

Solid ground Christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio. Lindbergh Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Lindbrook Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant. It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement.

It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people in healing. We're a diverse family of all ages Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together.

Hi I'm pastor Bob Walderman and I invite you to come and join us here at Lindbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can.

Be call in Brook Baptist at five one six five nine nine nine four zero two. That's five one six five nine nine nine four zero two or visit Lindbrook Baptist org, that's Lindbrook Baptist org.

Thriving financial is not your typical financial services provider as a membership organization. We help Christians be wise with money and live generously every day. And for the fourth year in a row we were named one of the world's most ethical companies by the ethosphere Institute a leading International think-tank dedicated to the creation advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics.

Contact me Mike Gallagher financial consultant at seven one seven two five four six four three three Again, seven one seven two five four six four three three to learn more about the thriving difference.

Faith finances and generosity. That's the private story.

Welcome back. This is Chris arms. And if you just tuned in our guest today for the full two hours is Dennis Gunderson. We've got 90 minutes to go on a discussion on courtship or dating. So what's the difference?

That's also the title of a book that he wrote that you can purchase through grace and truth books. Calm that's grace and truth books. Calm and the word end is spelled out. And. There's a whole bunch of other things that are definitely Things that you should add to your library shells or your study shells.

So go to that website as soon as possible. Our email address here for our discussion is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n z n at gmail .com and. We invite your questions for our guests and you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable.

But we would prefer having your first name city and state and country. We have a first question here is from Tyler and mastic Beach, Long Island, New York. Who asks is it true that courtship and dating aren't?

Explicitly taught in the New Testament, but God has given his principles how to live a pure lifestyle for his glory.

Oh, yes, I'd say that's absolutely correct. You know, obviously the terms courtship or dating aren't found in scripture and In fact when you do a you know a search through the scriptures to see how our relationships were.

Between.

Partners of the opposite sex. Well, you can find about 18 to 20 different ways in which couples got together from reading them that. Presented at all with the goal of being exemplary or trying to indicate some method say, you know pre 1900s.

Compared to more the post 1920s dating tradition rules that are important commonly followed in that era. Then they are being followed now in the year in which dating is common.

Well Tyler, I guess what you are getting absolutely free of charge a copy of courtship or dating. So what's the difference. Compliments of our friends at grace and truth books? And that will be shipped to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible book service to ship out all of our winners Books and Bibles to them at no cost to you.

Or iron sharpens iron. So we want to thank both Dennis Gunderson and grace and truth books and Cumberland Valley Bible book service. For that gift to you. And the Cumberland Valley Bible book service again is CVB BS calm.

CV BBS calm. We have an anonymous listener from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Who asks the young man that I have fallen in love with is a Reformed Baptist and I happen to be the daughter of Presbyterian parents.

My parents although they are very fond of this young man Do take our differences on baptism very seriously and they although not forbidding me to pursue this relationship with this young man Have constantly been trying to direct me towards young men in the in our own church.

What should I do to be obedient to the scriptures in this situation? I truly do love this young man, and he loves me.

Yeah, I mean it's never even what I can detect. Even what she has said about her parents obedience to parently permission and to make a change. Believe it persuasion. Permit and time with and ultimately possibly to marry this Reformed Baptist young man is the case.

I don't I don't see any reason for her not to feel then encouraged that she may pursue that. Forbid this relationship and you you must marry someone more in these in these circles.

Well to get a little person to get a little personal here. You are a Baptist and a Reformed Baptist. What would you do as a parent if one of your children? was falling in love with or wanted to pursue in a courtship a relationship with somebody who is a Presbyterian or other kind of pedo-baptist.

You know what to me the really key thing is if they were making a godly choice. If this was someone that they were seeking out who I would have to say. You know this woman would make a great wife to do anything, but encourage the religious person into your life.

There are a lot of good reasons to on this for fun's sake here. You know I have it a little bit easy from the vantage point that I've got four sons. And so in all probability if my son the Reformed Baptist marries the girl who's a Presbyterian You know guess where she's probably going to church.

Most of the time he's going to be taking the headship and lead and say well if you marry me. This is where we're going to be raising our children. I don't think I would do this any differently if I had a daughter this young man.

You know. Or a pedo-baptist young man, and I knew that. Okay. They reformed the Presbyterian Church and the great joy with the transition into that.

How serious would the difference have to be in the religion of your children's romantic interests. For you to say no, I'm sorry. I'm not giving my blessing to this. I mean like for instance. You know we could go a lot farther afield than pedo-baptist we could say perhaps.

The young person that your son or daughter is interested in is a extreme Pentecostal Armenian Church. Or Perhaps even someone where you would have differences on the gospel itself a Roman Catholic. And on and on.

I could go further from the gospel. The point got that one of my son's just simply not pursuing that he knew and. She was an attractive girl. She was a nice girl. She had a lot of his relationship. That was not going to happen.

How about if the person especially if it was a woman because a woman According to the scriptures is supposed to be the submissive partner in The marriage relationship obviously an equal before God want to make that clear.

But submissive to her husband if the Catholic young lady Who was interested in your son and vice versa was was saying I'm not fully convinced of the gospel that you Proclaim, but I am willing to Submit to your son.

I am willing to go to his church. I am willing to hear sit under his preaching. I'm willing to raise our children according to your faith. How would you would it differ at all with you?

She had manifested that family converted going to do and her understandable that I would need You know to encourage my son to marry her. Would at least need where she had forsaken the teachings of the Catholic Church and understood that that is not.

From those idols to serve. And by the way.

To the anonymous Young lady in Pittsburgh. If you'd like to give me your name and address to mail you a free book. Is you have also won a book. Courtship or dating. What. So what's the difference. By Dennis Gunnarsson.

If you'd like that to provide for us your full name and mailing Address and of course, I will not announce that on the air so you don't have to worry about that. But if you'd like a copy of the book, that would be great to hear from you and.

The.

Issue of When when when parents come to faith later in life and they already have Children that have not been raised in the faith in their home They already have Relationships that they've developed with people of the opposite sex that becomes a lot more Difficult a situation to manage I would assume but I know for a fact from people I even Know personally in my life who have become very godly Christians and active members of their church.

But they came to faith at a point where their teenage children and children in their early 20s were already Involved with very serious relationships with people that did not share The parents faith, so how do you manage a situation like that?

Yes, we are these that can arise, you know, and that is manage in a godly direction. For instance, you know, let's. Here's where I'm going with that. I come to faith late in Christ and their children haven't even.

Come to the faith, you know, well, I I mean, I've got a I've got a son who is decidedly not a believer. I would not encourage him to Seek out or marry a godly. He would be wrong to do that. So he's not a Christian man.

Mm-hmm. And me to encourage a decent and reasonable wife. But and I of course pray for both of them, but they would come over and are not even believers.

If you could give us some Guidelines that you want to share with not only people who are of age to Be involved in a courtship or even those who are younger than that because eventually they most likely will.

And.

To their parents as well of some guidelines on What type of a person? They should be pursuing In regard to obviously somebody that shares their faith and what would be the the actual practical ways of approaching this person and getting them involved in this courtship relationship because I can tell you that That you know as a an adult man and perhaps this is a lot to do with the with the being tainted by a modern pluralistic society and all that kind of thing and and We have all even as Christians I think had our Consciousness seared to some degree or another just because of the culture, but I could tell you honestly, it would probably creep me out a little bit if a woman approached me and said I believe God wants you to be my husband and I'd like to start pursuing this, you know without even having ever Had any kind of real meaningful interaction with a person prior to that instance.

And I'm assuming a woman in this day and age, of course might feel equally as creeped out for lack of a better term. Unless this happens to be the person that they were hoping To be in a relationship already if they were seeing somebody from afar that they were wildly Attracted to or something that might be a totally different reaction.

But it if you could understand what I'm saying if you how do you respond with the nuts and bolts of this.

Yeah. Thankfully, you know, I imagine there have been instances where some families have. Some parents have encouraged their youth to look at it that way. I have not met any advocates of courtship myself who have gone about it that way, you know.

Either parentally approached the other parents or where the youth have. Interested in you with marriage in mind and so we can we start seeing one another? That seemed to become You know evident to the two of them more as I've mentioned in interaction in real people.

Spending time with one another say in church. But what. Maybe what we would call youth groups or other social functions where they'd get to know one another in that way. More than I was going to address but I lost track of the original.

That's okay. I was basically asking you to give practical nuts and bolts descriptions of how these relationships begin and I threw in there. The notion of how especially in the 21st century it could. I think it would creep out most people if somebody approached them and said I believe God has put it on my heart to marry you.

Or.

To pursue a marriage relationship with you one day, you know. Well that kind of a thing initially being thrust in somebody's face in our in our day and age I mean, we're not living in a third world world country or something where that kind of a thing would be more common especially with parents arranging marriages, but.

In the Western world and especially here in the United States, perhaps that seems like a pretty creepy Scenario and forgive me for constantly using that term, but I'm just being honest which about how I would feel I think.

Between how a courtship would start as compared to how a dating relationship would start would be. Dating generally begins. They'll say if you're the girl. I'm the guy I'm interested in. That begins with me saying hey the courtship not begin let's say with the approach of let's you and I get alone together.

It begins in larger social contexts where the two become interested in one another. Because they're interacting that could give and I haven't. I haven't seen any more detail than that. To which to speak to it.

So it frequently starts within their church or it's probably more common among homeschoolers. It begins Often in their homeschool co-op or their homeschool organizations, you know. Where they see one another at activities and they spend time together.

Begin to express to one another. You know even even had a context of their.

No, so I'm assuming from everything that you're saying you completely approve of churches or groups of young people in churches getting together in groups where there are Young men and young women recreational enjoying things like sporting events and Theatrical plays and and certain movies and you know going to restaurants.

We have a question that it's actually Interest to me because it has something to do even with with something that happened to me when I was a young single man.