Eli Ayala Joins Matt Slick to discuss many Apologetic Issues | Apologetics Live 0023

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00:03

Now you can't All right, there we go So hopefully you can get in All you got to do is just click on the link you can get in that makes no sense to me

00:34

So I'm going to do is email you Let's see Eli, okay.

00:46

Yeah, there it is and Let's see 314 201 because we're live man.

00:56

Uh, let's see, uh apologetics live All right sent it

01:04

There you go. People who are watching this first part of the video going. Oh, this is so fascinating to see how they work things out

01:13

Yeah Not that exciting Junk, how could my emails possibly?

01:26

Because that are junk Yeah Charlie spines in Charlie's in Yeah, where it says participate what

01:48

I would do is take your mouse I put it over the where the words click here and then what

01:53

I would do is click and Doesn't make any sense

02:20

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I always have problems Well, I got both streams going on my end

02:32

Okay No, it shouldn't shouldn't uh I don't even know what your password is.

02:38

I can give it to you No, it's not supposed to be like that Hey charlie, did you have to uh put a password or anything in you just click on the link and you're in right charlie?

02:53

Yeah, I just went to apologetics live .com. There was the participate here and watch here both links and both links work for me

03:05

Well, just go to apologetics live and click on the link. It should work Yes Yes That is just that's weird.

03:41

Oh look I will have to figure it out and i'll uh, type it i'll text it to you

03:48

But uh, let me get because I can't say it over the air. Um So, let me try this that should not it happen with you.

03:55

I don't know what's going on why it's doing that Uh, yeah, yeah, but whatever i'll try it.

04:02

Let's see You need to know the password anyway, because I want you to start answering emails Yeah You know,

04:16

I I hear lots of excuses from people that's what I hear lots of excuses

04:24

Yeah, okay, hold on let's see all right Well, somehow

04:30

I got in so that qualifies it as knucklehead proof Um, okay, here we go, let's see

04:38

Okay, i'm going to put the password Okay, i'm typing the password in Okay into let's see, where does it say

04:48

Text We're always having problems. Oh, yeah Okay, so here's the password, okay

04:59

Eli is A Doofus Yes All right

05:15

All right There I sent it to you Try that see if it gets it.

05:22

We're having problems. Everybody else is getting in and you can't even get in What browser are you on?

05:44

Just use chrome Matt is it is it carnal for me to feel like um comfort that I wasn't the last knucklehead

06:02

It is carnal, okay, that feels good Yeah, it feels good

06:14

Well, wait, you're not even in yet Almost isn't good enough

06:25

And boom, there you are. I'm in. Okay. Let me let me hang up on you. All right, man.

06:30

Sounds good, buddy That was pretty intense. My life was great, but it's all right Well, there you go.

06:36

Seven minutes of uh Of stuff logical apologetics, that's how you defend the faith against Not working technology

06:48

Okay, hold on a second i'm answering somebody said that uh I'm still teaching the heresy of the trinity.

06:53

I said call in my show and let's talk and stop hiding behind a nickname

07:00

You know, it always gets me as people like to take shots and they don't even use the the real names Anyway, okay

07:08

All right, folks. We are in we've already prayed and uh There you go, so Okay, now what

07:19

Now we just talked about like apologetic stuff Apologetic stuff. What would that be apologetic stuff?

07:25

Well apologetics includes so much. So it depends where you want to tackle it, man Okay. So what do you?

07:32

I'm just have fun here. What do you feel is the best approach in apologetics? The biblical approach.

07:39

Oh, there you go. It's a good it's a smart aleck answer. That's what I would say No, well, well actually actually it's not

07:45

I I joke I I give smart aleck answers But there's some truth to that and if I want to use a technical term, but it's true

07:51

I'm a presuppositional apologist. So I think that the presuppositional method is the biblical one because when you don't follow the biblical method you say stuff like God probably exists the preponderance of evidence and we're not arguing for the christian god

08:07

That's the kind of stuff you say when you use an unbiblical apologetic Why is it unbiblical? I'm gonna quiz you man.

08:13

Let's see how you do. Why is it unbiblical? Well, because the bible doesn't give us the example of defending the faith in such a way where we actually set our commitment to god aside

08:25

First peter chapter 3 verse 15 says to set apart christ as lord in our heart always being ready to give a reason for the hope That's in us most books on apologetics focus on the always ready and ignore that first part that we're to set apart

08:36

Christ as lord in our hearts. So it's actually the lordship of jesus christ that governs It's the prerequisite of doing apologetics.

08:43

It governs everything that we do and so if jesus is lord over all Then we cannot set aside our intellectual foundations for the sake of neutrality or things like that well, uh

08:55

Okay, didn't jesus tell thomas to look at the evidence of the holes in his wrists and then believe

09:03

Yeah, well a lot of people bring that up and what's hidden in there is is an erroneous presupposition

09:09

That presuppositionalists don't use evidence and we do use evidence, but it's within the context of the christian worldview thomas, for example

09:17

Came from a I would argue a christian worldview even though he was inconsistent in his doubt

09:23

So he still had that intellectual background that allowed him to receive and understand Uh the meaning and the the powerful nature of the evidence that jesus gave him in Showing him the holes in his in his hands and so forth

09:35

Well, what about paul in act 17 when he used rationality And pagan philosophy in order to get the unbelievers to believe in jesus

09:44

Well, when you say rationality we talk about reason in philosophy There are over 20 or 30 different kinds of reason you have kantian reason cartesian reason

09:52

It's the kind of reason that's being used and paul that that same person paul that's speaking in Acts also speaks about the treasures of wisdom and knowledge being found in christ colossians 2 3

10:04

And of course he had the old testament background and would have affirmed what the book of proverbs taught That the beginning of knowledge of the fear of the lord.

10:12

So when he tried to reason with people it was not a sort of Autonomous reasoning he could appeal to the image of god within man to make a connection

10:21

There is common ground Between the believer and unbeliever even within a presuppositional framework

10:26

The common ground is not neutral ground The common ground is actually the fact that both the believer and unbeliever are creating the image of god

10:34

And so we appeal to that and sometimes we could use examples from our experience examples from the world to kind of draw those connections

10:41

Well, what do you do if an atheist such as doesn't believe in god or the bible? Well, the bible doesn't say that doesn't say what well

10:48

He's denying the existence of god and the bible says all men know that god exists So i'll just reject his statement and explore that with him a little bit

10:56

Okay. So if an atheist says he doesn't believe in god and you say yes you do Yeah then what then we need to have a conversation, um, because Um, my commitment is to my ultimate authority the word of god and god being omniscient knows the heart of all men

11:11

And so if his word tells me the nature of the heart of man and the fact that all men know god I'm not going to engage in an argument without assuming what god has revealed about the nature of man

11:22

And so I what the goal of apologetics really is to point out Uh in reality the unbeliever is suppressing the truth about god in his unrighteousness

11:30

And so we'd explore that a little bit. I wouldn't just merely make the statement Um, because um, we'd have to kind of explore in what way

11:37

Do all men know god? Okay, so let me ask you a question In what in what way do all men know god?

11:44

Um, well in well Well, let's talk a little bit about what in what way they don't know god because there is a way in which all men know

11:52

God and there's a way in which men don't know god and if you read, uh Cornelius van till he kind of explained a little bit about the different ways in which we know and don't know

12:00

We don't know god in relationship and that's evidenced by the fact that on judgment. Jesus will say

12:06

Um to those on his left get away from me. I never knew you there is no relational knowledge of of Of the person towards god they never really knew him and jesus was never in relationship with them

12:16

But the way in which all men know god is evidenced in that while they reject him with their mouth

12:21

They actually live in ways that only make sense if he does exist And so my job as an apologist is to point out those inconsistencies within his worldview

12:30

That as you are common or you're known to saying people act upon what they believe But it's very interesting that people say they believe one thing but they live their life

12:39

Um in a way that actually is in conflict with what they say they believe for example An atheist will say there's no god, but then he'll complain.

12:45

Um when he sees immoral things in the world And so you have a conflict there, uh, the metaphysical naturalist will say all that exists is matter in motion

12:52

Um, yet he will appeal to the immaterial transcendental laws of logic So those are those are inconsistencies within his own worldview, which is evidence that we could explore

13:03

That what he says with his mouth, he actually doesn't really believe in his heart. That's precisely what the bible says Could you repeat that because you know that was

13:14

So folks if you're coming in late Uh, ele and I we have all kinds of conversations like this all the time.

13:20

I'm just asking questions that have him go because um, eli uh, and I We'll we'll talk about all kinds of things.

13:28

We did today Presuppositionalism, uh, we talked about mollenism. We'll talk about various philosophical issues and things like that And uh, yeah,

13:35

I I totally agree. Yeah, I use rational Thought I'll use evidences, but I always presuppose that the christian god exists one time

13:43

An atheist actually said to me look man. I want you to do a thought experiment. I said, okay and he said

13:48

I'd like you to do is um, you know, just imagine that god doesn't the christian god doesn't even exist I said done i'm not going to do that.

13:55

We're not going to not going there And he said well, why not just a thought exercise? I said I cannot violate the word of god in order to suit your ungodly needs

14:04

It's not going to happen and so I wasn't going to let him do that and he you know He didn't like that but the whole thing is that i'm not going to and no christian should

14:13

Entertain the idea that god does not exist because well to do that is intellectual suicide spiritual suicide as well

14:19

But that's another topic too. But nevertheless, so, uh Yeah, I think that's I think that's a very important point to bring out when someone asks the christian to jump into a hypothetical world use

14:30

They have to understand that the claim of the the presuppositionalist the christian is not that the christian world view

14:36

Is the most rational world view? Uh, we're saying it's the only rational world view, right?

14:41

And so you're hypothetically asking us to jump into this other world view for us by definition You're asking us to jump into irrationality and then rationalize with you, which is again

14:51

Kind of a contradictory enterprise to begin with. Yeah, it's like saying Can you I want you to imagine a round square for a minute and let's talk about logic

14:58

Well, the very beginning of your whole assumption does not work And to abandon god as a necessary precondition for intelligibility is to adopt irrationality and then try and argue rationally

15:09

It's a self -refuting thing. You just want to do that kind of a thing. Very good and I think it's important to also to recognize because a lot of Presuppositionalist will say these kinds of things the christian world view is the only rational world view and then they'll stop there

15:22

Because when people hear this for the first time they're kind of you know What do you mean? And so it is necessary for us to actually explain what we mean by that and kind of show

15:33

Go ahead explain expand on it. Why is christianity the only rational the only rational world view to hold?

15:40

Well first one of its truth claims is that it's the only one and when you actually

15:45

Take a look at the christian worldview as a system It is the only worldview perspective that provides the necessary preconditions for for knowledge

15:53

And that's why presuppositionalists tend to focus on discussing the issue of truth A lot of people don't like to talk about truth

15:59

They like to just assume that everyone knows what's true and then argue on that basis But one of the key commitments of the presuppositionalist is that we are to begin our apologetical enterprise

16:09

By setting apart christ as lord now. He's the lord over everything. He's lord over knowledge. He's lord over truth.

16:15

And so When we affirm that we cannot grant Truth to the unbeliever on their own basis

16:23

And so what we would do is show that only on the christian system. Can you have something like truth?

16:29

And that's why you have people say, you know, if if you believe in truth, you know How do you get truth in your own worldview?

16:34

That's not a word game. A lot of people think christians are playing word games there to try to avoid answering questions Actually, it's a very fundamental

16:40

Systemological question what is truth if you can't define truth within your own worldview Then how can you engage in a discussion over truth when it hasn't been coherently defined?

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And the christian's position of truth is fundamentally in opposition to the unbeliever's definition of truth when someone says what's truth?

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I say it's anything that conforms to the mind of god. They'll be like wait a minute I thought truth is a justified true belief and i was like well

17:03

My argument is that you can't have a justification for any belief unless you start with my god And so we're right there at the beginning at an antithesis

17:10

We are right there at disagreements over what the nature of truth is And so what the unbeliever usually wants to do is just pass that aside.

17:17

Okay. Well, just give me evidence Well, wait a minute evidence presupposes truth and How do you define truth within your own worldview and how does your own worldview provide the necessary preconditions

17:27

To to kind of prop that up because that's logically prior that question is logically prior to any discussion

17:34

And so I would hammer those things in and show That on your worldview you can't have it on my worldview you can and it's the only worldview that can do that.

17:44

Okay well I'll tell you what let's open it up for questions if anybody wants to ask anything, but I got more questions

17:49

I could ask you Sure Anybody want to say anything anybody got any ideas any comments? you can do it in the uh

17:58

Uh participation room or in the Video room

18:07

Give him a sec here to do that. Yeah, sure and I apologize if i'm yelling like i'm a teacher So when I teach my my voice amplifies and i'm not really used to talking through my computer.

18:16

So All you gotta do is relax and everything will be fine And and because you have a tendency like I used to when

18:21

I was younger just talk very quickly because your mind's full of information That it's like, okay,

18:27

I'm gonna say this gonna say that And uh, yeah, but a lot of people don't understand like for example what the nature of truth is

18:33

And that's something worth discussing for a while so people can understand so I don't see anybody else with any comments or anything and i'm looking at the

18:41

Video feed let me see here. Um introduction apologetics being dark understanding read.

18:48

That's right introduction. There you go Okay, okay Let's talk about what truth is because um

18:57

Uh You know people will say different things about truth truth is what you want to believe or truth is what is true for you

19:04

And not somebody else. Oh, yeah, somebody had a question Yeah, well matt, uh, you you brought up the whole round square thing again and i'm assuming that eli would agree with you since he's a calvinist, but Eli, I noticed that last week.

19:18

You uh, you did a pretty good job at going ahead and Even though you don't hold to molybdenum.

19:24

You did a pretty good job at debating matt slick playing devil's advocate Would you be able to if you could?

19:32

Um Even though you may not hold that view would you be able to argue that view that god could

19:38

Make a round square if he so choose to do so uh, no, because that presupposes, uh, an unbiblical and illogical view

19:49

Of god's omnipotence a lot of people think that when we say that god is omnipotent

19:54

That that entails that he should be able to create a round circle But the reason why he can't create a round circle is because a round circle is not a thing that can be created

20:02

It's it's not a thing. So it's like asking can god create this thing? That's not a thing It's just a jumbled, you know mixture of words.

20:09

And so, um, the biblical view of omniscience does not necessitate That god is able to do the logically impossible.

20:17

Here's a question if god's so powerful that he could strip himself of his own divinity Well, no He doesn't god doesn't violate the laws of logic

20:25

Um, not because there's there's not an external law that he follows called logic Logic is a reflection of his mind and his thinking he can't violate his nature

20:33

But that's not an impingement upon his omnipotence because omnipotence doesn't entail that you can do the logically impossible

20:40

And here's here's a problem too people who think well omnipotence should entail that god does the logically impossible

20:47

Someone asked me one time. It's a famous philosophical question. Um, can god create a rock so big that he can't lift?

20:52

Um, and so my answer is uh, well, you know, it's a contradictory question, but then they demand well god can do anything

20:59

I'm like fine god can create a rock so big that he can't lift i'm like, uh -huh. He's not all powerful Oh, yes, he is, but he can't lift the rock.

21:06

I'm like he can lift it and then not lift it Well, that doesn't make sense. It's a contradiction and I say well, so was your question So if you ask a contradictory question, you're going to get a contradictory answer and that's why we affirm that god doesn't violate his nature because If he does violate his nature does violate logic

21:20

Then you have meaning and truth is all garbled up and you can't really make sense out of anything Does that make sense?

21:32

Yeah, yeah But uh, see the way I I perceive it is that the logic that we understand with regards to the mechanics of our universe our natural universe

21:42

It's a presupposition to apply that logic to god's nature because we don't know what logic

21:47

Is involved with regards to god's nature We do know that with regards he cannot violate his own nature but I think it's

21:56

It's wrong to go ahead and logic that's involved with the natural universe Is somehow tied to god's own nature.

22:04

I think to do that is a is a form of quasi pantheism I'm, not calling you a pantheist or anything.

22:10

Sure. Sure. Sure that I'm, just saying that it it it seems strange to do that When as y 'all said before and in last week's conversation

22:20

We're not to know god from a bottom -up approach but from a top -down approach And I think we can only know god from what is revealed and I think for us to go ahead and make a presupposition that God cannot make a round square because it would some like you said it

22:35

It's something that is uh an absurd idea. It's it's non -existent well, we don't know that you would presuppose that it's something that's incapable of Coming into existence because it doesn't make any sense

22:48

But when you say quantum physics it it's possible even in quantum physics for there to be a round square

22:55

No, that would mean that false. I would disagree that that that's that's false just real quick just to back up real quick You said that um, it's just a presupposition.

23:04

It actually isn't when we say that god reveals himself in the word Would you agree that the bible is the inspired word of god?

23:12

I do right and so if you take a look the god inspired a book with language, right?

23:19

Yes. Yes, and that language presupposes certain structures of logic, right? I don't believe that the language itself

23:29

Simply focusing on the language and the thought behind it. Maybe the thought behind the word.

23:34

I believe Well, for example, like when he spoke about the laws of god There was the letter of the law and there was the spirit of the law and I think if you equate the linguistics of the language with the spirit of the message

23:47

I think that is the same as going ahead and saying that the Logical laws that govern the mechanics of the universe

23:55

Is somehow equatable to the spirit of god the the very nature of god And I think again,

24:01

I think that's sort of like a quasi pantheism approach to understanding god

24:07

I don't see how example, but i'm having difficulty following your connection there with pantheism.

24:12

Well, for example, um For example, um

24:18

You it's an absurdity. It's an absurd idea for there to be a round square. I would agree but it's also absurd to say that God could go ahead and create this natural universe from nothing

24:32

Because i've heard mad slick and i've heard other It's not absurd Yeah, I don't think

24:37

I don't think that's absurd at all And I don't think they're the same. I don't think the creation god creating ex nihilo is violating a law of logic

24:45

I don't I don't think that that's illogical at all when you say absurd I think I I i'm understanding you to to mean that something that's absurd is something that's logically incoherent

24:55

Now a round circle is most definitely logically incoherent But creation ex nihilo is not even if someone didn't believe it to be true

25:02

There's nothing there's nothing in the idea of god creating out of nothing that violates the second law of logic

25:11

I can't really hear you your voice kind of muted down there. I'm, sorry I'm, i'm, sorry. Can you hear me now am

25:17

I coming in? Yes, sir Yeah, well the thing is i've heard mad slick and i've heard other apologists even catholic apologists

25:24

In debates with atheists actually ask them Well, can some it's actually make the claim that it's absurd when they make the claim the atheist

25:33

That something can come from nothing So it's the christian side that is saying something did not come from nothing

25:42

But god could created it from nothing But god is not nothing God created so it's not not nothing from nothing.

25:52

That's something from nothing right, so Therefore that same As since we're talking about logic if we apply that same logic

26:01

God could go ahead and create a round square That doesn't follow at all. I don't see how when you say that I don't see how that followed from anything you you said

26:10

Here's a question. Can god can god create a being that is completely equal to himself in every way?

26:17

No, because that would violate The very nature of god because there's only one god

26:23

But can god violate his nature and not violate his nature at the same time and in the same way? I can't hear you.

26:32

I'm, sorry your voice muted again God god can never violate his own nature But making a round square would not violate his own nature is what i'm trying to make the point um

26:45

I think it is outside of god's nature to perform irrational things because god is an eminently rational being

26:52

Anything he does is rational. He's always rational So to create a square circle square circle is by definition irrational and so god can't do it because god always acts consistently

27:03

With who he is Um, that's like saying, you know, can god lie? Well, no god can't lie. Why well because it goes against his nature

27:10

Well, if god can if god can perform Logically incompatible things and we could affirm that it's possible given his omnipotence that god can both lie and not lie at the same

27:19

Time in the same way, which is which is absurd We couldn't even understand what that means which is precisely what a logical absurdity is.

27:25

There's no meaning or content to it well, there's numerous Phd scientists physicists quantum physicists if you look at some of the videos

27:35

They have many videos on youtube where they actually speak about The physics the the mechanics of the quantum universe compared to the macro universe

27:44

And they themselves said that you could have two things existing That are exactly the same one thing

27:53

In the quantum universe and they said the logics the logic of the macro universe does not conform to the quantum universe

27:59

But we know that god created the quantum universe and the macro universe I I would be careful because the phd scientists don't even fully understand quantum events for example

28:10

Some phd physicists will say that in the in the the field of quantum mechanics things come into existence out of nothing and that's that's not true even when they say that because the um

28:21

Cosmic vacuum is not nothing It's a sea of fluctuating energy and actually within that sea of fluctuating energy

28:27

You have subatomic particles that come into it appears to come into existence, but it's not coming into existence from nothing

28:33

But you have phd scientists using that language as though that's actually the case And so i'd be very cautious of a quantum physicist talking about, uh, two things that are two things

28:44

But also one thing, um, even if there were multiple logics You still need the basic aristotelian laws of logic to even talk about them

28:51

Um, which I would argue is necessary because you need logic to talk about anything and to understand anything

28:57

If nature at base is logically incoherent, then we have a problem How do we get logical incoherence and then move from that state into a state of coherence?

29:05

If it's the fundamental aspect of reality god being a rational being created the world to function in certain ways

29:12

And because as human beings at least if we're not talking so much about, you know nature external to ourselves

29:17

We're creating the image of god. I would argue that the image of god entails Rationality and the utilization of logic and so when we think logically we're actually not using a different logic than god

29:28

But we're actually thinking god's thoughts after him and that's how we honor and glorify god in the way that we think

29:35

I think there's a connection there when the bible says that we're to love the lord our god with all of our minds Uh when we think rationally and logically we honor god because that's how god thinks

29:44

But when we're irrational we're not thinking like god and so we're not honoring god in the way that we think

29:51

Well, I think when it comes to truths and morals I would agree with you But when it comes to the logical laws of the mechanics of the universe the physics of the universe

30:00

I apologize. I apologize. You said truth and morality, but then you you said you agree with truth and morality that that's the case

30:06

But then you talked about quantum mechanics which presupposes truth So quantum mechanics is an element of truth and if truth presupposes the logic that you just agreed, uh holds

30:16

Then in any discussion of quantum mechanics would have to include that and presuppose that But we have to distinguish the truth the truth that applies to the mechanics of the universe versus the truth that applies to god

30:28

And that's that's where I believe that there's a mixing of those two truths that shouldn't take place For example

30:34

I'm, i'm sorry Rational Is it rational for a man to walk on water?

30:41

Yes It doesn't violate any logical law whatsoever. It violates natural laws as we perceive them

30:48

But there's not for example a man walks on water that proposition Does not violate the second law of logic namely that a statement cannot be both true and false at the same time in the same way

30:58

There is a way in which natural man Cannot walk on water, but there is a way in which he can

31:04

Ie divine intervention. So there's no there's no logical contradiction in in stating that someone walks on water okay, so therefore

31:13

I would agree exactly with what you said because You you brought it into natural terms.

31:19

You made a distinguished distinction with regards to the logic That applies to the natural universe

31:27

Versus what god supernaturally is capable of doing but they're the same logic I don't differentiate between the logics.

31:34

I like god interacts with us in logical ways When he manifests himself he's he can't he can't reveal himself if he's using a different logic than than we are because We have a logic that we function under and outside that logic.

31:49

We couldn't understand anything So god interacts with us in his divinity in his essence in a logical fashion

31:55

Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to understand what he's doing Your voice is muted again.

32:02

I'm, sorry I'm, so sorry.

32:11

I can't hear him at all Um, there you go you're back All right

32:18

I missed what you could repeat what you said. I'm, sorry So applying the mechanics that governs the laws of the natural universe

32:26

A man cannot walk upon water you would agree Without the divine intervention of god well,

32:32

I I have to actually be careful with the use of intervention because I I I don't think laws are autonomous things that govern until god interacts with them

32:42

Um, for example, someone asked me what what is my definition of miracle? my definition of miracle, which is related to how

32:49

I understand laws is A lesser way in which god governs the universe so he functions in a particular way

32:56

That's very rare And so when it happens we notice it as a miracle but god is always in control of everything

33:02

And so the laws of nature as we call them are not these autonomous things that just govern the world It is the common way in which god governs the world.

33:10

And so I don't I agree Quantum mechanics have these natures of themselves and then they can produce these irrationalities like logical incoherencies because god is governing

33:21

Both the laws of nature and everything else. Um, they're always based upon rationality since god is rational as a as a being

33:30

Right, I and I absolutely agree with that But the norm of the natural universe the logic that governs the mechanic

33:37

So the net is that a man cannot walk upon water and as you said before no, no, no, no No, I would disagree with that because when you talk about quantum mechanics, you're talking about science and you're talking about induction we observe

33:50

That men normally don't walk on water But you can't use induction to say look this tells us that man can't

33:56

Can't doesn't belong in science because science does not give you absolute knowledge about something since it's based on inductive inference

34:03

Which actually could only get you to probability sean carroll who's an atheistic? Cosmologist says that science doesn't give you truth.

34:10

It gives you theories that work So scientists who actually understand science don't make those wide -ranging claims that science tells us that this can't happen

34:20

Science can't tell us that man can't walk on water science tells us that normally men don't walk on water

34:27

And I think that's a that's a huge difference So if we don't normally see

34:34

A round square and have never seen a round square doesn't mean that a round square doesn't exist somewhere in the universe

34:41

No in that case, we know that a round square doesn't exist because a round square isn't a thing

34:46

It's irrational it's just you just have a sentence with words that have the word round and square in it There's there's no such thing as a thing

34:54

Of a round square like no one can look at look. There's a round square. It doesn't it doesn't exist um

35:00

Like saying what about saying something similar like there's something that doesn't exist

35:05

But it also exists that and from what he's saying that that's possible. It doesn't exist. It also exists

35:11

And what does that look like? Have you ever seen something that exists and doesn't exist at the same time in the same way that would be

35:18

It's logically impossible. You can't have a round square because it can't exist There's no it does and it also doesn't it just yeah.

35:25

Yeah He and i've gone over this many times. So Have adam And and then scientists,

35:32

I don't I don't believe in this but they also put forth this whole multi -universe thing Where they say that there could be laws of physics

35:39

That are completely different from our own universe, so Just you know If there are you know other universes out there, obviously, they would all have been created by god as well

35:52

And really part of the universe itself Don't make a mistake of thinking Don't make a mistake of thinking that logic and the universe are the same thing or physics and logic are the same thing right

36:02

I would say logic governs if there is a multiverse logic would govern Would would be binding on all of them since logic is not something that's a property of our universe rather.

36:12

It's transcendent It's not limited by our own physical cosmos So the rest of the mind and heart of god and if god's everywhere then all universes are subject to that same logic

36:21

Exactly. Yeah, and and we have to be careful too when scientists say there may be other universes that are governed

36:28

Well, there may be unicorns on the dark side of the moon there's no basis for them to say that at all

36:35

No, I understand but the thing is if there are other universes out there with Physics or laws that are completely different from our own universe, right?

36:44

Then we can't necessarily say that a round square couldn't exist in that universe Yes, we can because if the laws of physics are different the laws of physics are different than the laws of logic

36:54

But just because the laws of physics might be different in another universe that does not logically entail that therefore that includes

37:00

The laws of logic being different because I think what's implicit in your statements Is the idea that logic is the is a property of a universe?

37:09

And that there's another universe out there that has a property called logic and it's different than the property of logic that we have over Here and I and again that is to ignore the reality that logic is transcendental in nature

37:20

It's not limited to universes two plus two Uh must be four either here or on the other side of our universe or if there are other universes that That exist two plus two would have to be you know

37:31

Four over there now now in another universe if there's another universe with the different laws of physics

37:37

Maybe perhaps that in that universe someone could walk on water That's possible if the laws of nature are different that might allow for it if we can kind of you know

37:48

Speculate a little bit but that's not the same as saying that different universes can have different logic Yeah, explain to him why logic is what it is

37:57

The transcendental nature which which is a property of god's mind and and ubiquity because he doesn't understand that It's good for others to know that as well

38:06

Yeah, well, I always I always think of logic as the the laws of thinking but in a theological sense

38:13

It really is a reflection of god's thinking and so logic is is You would often say it's an abstraction, but it's also a concept and it and concepts necessarily reside in minds

38:23

But the issue with logic is that it's a universal concept And so if concepts necessarily reside in minds and this is a universal concept

38:30

Then it seems to follow that logic would have to reside in the universal mind of god or is the mind of god really?

38:37

reflection Of his thinking we can't separate logic from god's mind. We are not um,

38:43

I hate to use the term but we're not Platonist if you take a look at the philosophy of plato where they he believes that abstract objects kind of exist out there

38:51

You know, there's this thing out there called logic logic independent of mind is an incoherent concept.

38:58

I think Which is why a round square can't occur because by definition

39:05

They exclude each other as being what they are so you can't have things that are said to be

39:11

Neutrally exclusionary as being a true thing That's it doesn't work a lot of atheists for example will often say something to the effect that you can't just you can't um

39:22

Just prove a universe or prove a universal negative And that's actually false. You can you can um

39:28

Prove universal negative by showing that something's logically incoherent So so if I say that a square circle can't exist

39:34

Well, like well you haven't been anywhere in the universe doesn't matter because the very concept is logically incoherent and can't exist anywhere

39:40

So that that's that's an important point I mean because logic applies everywhere if something is incoherent

39:46

That's something of which we speak besides it being not a thing can't exist anywhere right, and that's very important if you affirm that contradiction can be true, then you run into some problems because Then it can be true in some universe that god exists and doesn't exist at the same time in the same way

40:02

Which is which is absurd Is it possible for a person to exist at two places at the exact same time?

40:09

two places at the exact same time a physical person or Divine person physical physical.

40:16

Yeah. Yeah. No because I think um If they're if they're two individual persons again, i'm arguing from the christian perspective here that as an image bearer of god

40:26

I am not equivalent with my body. I am a body with a soul And so when I die, there's a separation of my body and my soul my soul goes to be with the lord

40:36

So I am my soul Okay, and so if there are two bodies separated, well, where's my soul you say both of them?

40:45

I have two different souls then they're not exactly the same person. You're talking about two different people. That's why

40:50

I kind of talked about this with my There are documented cases where catholic saints were it's what it's what's called by location

40:59

They were at two different places at the exact same time And this is throughout catholic church's history.

41:05

Well, for example For you i'm not catholic so I I would have to look at those particular instances and again

41:12

I already have a belief as to what the bible says about certain things that cause me to disagree with certain

41:18

You know arguments and things that catholics, uh bring up But I do think that there's an issue of identity if a person is two places at at once Um again that that again if someone could be at two places at once then it's possible for them to be at three places

41:31

At once or four places at once or five places at once what we're doing Is actually giving one of the incommunicable attributes of god his omnipresence to created things um, and that is an incommunicable attribute and so That's not communicated to creatures.

41:46

Only god is everywhere And so I would say that that's problematic saying that someone is two places at once and both of those people are the same person

41:55

Well, it is documented but Listen, I wanted to tell matt That doesn't prove anything if it's documented all you have is you could have a demonic manifestation

42:06

Trying to fake people out to think that catholicism is true by having someone in two places. You don't know what the truth is

42:13

Right, but even if he disagrees with that, even if you say well, I don't believe it's demonic The reality is if it is demonic

42:20

Then that would explain that what there's something that appears to be a manifestation of these things You can't know that merely by documentation because documentation

42:28

You need a reader to read the document and the reader comes to the paper With his own presuppositions his own worldviews and his own commitment or lack thereof to scripture

42:42

Your voice kind of went down again. I can't hear you. I'm, sorry Can't hear you

42:52

Yeah, I can't hear you, bud What about now there you go

42:59

Nope can't I'm sorry. I can't hear you. Um, what about now?

43:07

There you go Yeah, we can hear you okay so Yeah, matt since uh last week you voiced interest in uh, going to debate one of the catholicologists at catholic answers

43:20

Yeah, so I went ahead and uh, uh Trent horn of uh catholic answers since he's presently seeking persons to Fight on podcast show which happens to be called the council of trent

43:33

I went ahead and dropped your name, you know on his twitter page and uh, He said that he tried contacting you but uh, he hasn't heard anything back from you

43:41

So I just I don't know if he sent you an email or called you or what? My wife read it to me, uh today

43:50

And I said yeah You know, i'm just gonna decide in what venue either by skype or actually because he invited me down to go to san diego

43:58

And um, so we'll just say it's dependent a few things but yeah, that's fine I'd be glad to expose the the lies of catholicism

44:07

Well, I see there's other people that just joined into the uh, the uh room so i'll go ahead and mute

44:12

Yeah, I think nathan had a question for you guys sure go ahead nathan

44:28

Can you hear him matt? I can't hear him. No Nathan, he's just muted himself. Hello There you go, okay, go ahead nathan, so I think we talked a little while back

44:39

Uh, so I had a question on job chapter Uh 26 verse 7 if you uh know about that one

44:48

All right Job 26 7 He searches out the north over empty space and hangs the earth on nothing.

44:56

Okay, right so i've been researching it quite a good bit and I I Had a theory that it well,

45:03

I had a belief that it was referring to a literal God suspending the earth upon nothing but i'm really not too sure what to make of it now because I did more research on the hebrew side of it and it seems to be uh,

45:16

I guess different now Um I'm, not sure to tell you.

45:22

Uh, it's i've known about this first for a long time And uh, it seems to support the idea that that the earth

45:28

It dwells in space, uh, it's not hung on anything Right. Yeah, and uh, there's he stretches the north over empty space.

45:37

It's perfectly consistent with what we understand So not a big deal. I don't know. So why do you know something else about it?

45:45

Yes. Uh, so the word, uh, tohu in hebrew t -o -h -u

45:50

Uh means void and uh, it there's quite a few different references to void

45:56

There's a deuteronomy chapter 32 and chapter 10 for uh, sam for samuel, uh, 12 21 and a few other verses, but anyways, uh, the way that is translated in Job chapter 26 verse 7, uh is a parallel of hanging the or hanging the earth over the void uh, and Basically, it's saying uh on nothing so the hebrew translates on nothing

46:23

Uh, bailey ma, uh, and in in the hebrew scriptures the

46:30

Parallel here, uh is not referring to Uh earth flowing in outer space, but tohu which means deep

46:38

In hebrew tohu means deep and not like outer spaces we would conceive it well

46:47

Words be with you mean in context or to have a semantic domain and you can find out that tohu has is translated as confusion as without form

46:56

And other things it's translated in different ways Right, so be careful what you know, what is what you think it means

47:04

But uh, i'm not sure I understand what you're getting at though so, uh, I I was doing some research again, basically, um it it's kind of confusing on this because uh

47:18

When it says free float, you would think that like it's literally referring to a free flow but it it seems like um, what what's referring to here is, uh, different I suppose

47:35

Uh, i'm not sure i'm following you but um Let me uh You know look at it again, but uh in a different translation just say the same thing, you know, it's uh,

47:49

Let's see. How does the septuagint do it? Uh, yeah, it stresses out the north upon nothing uh

48:02

He hangs the earth upon nothing who days So the septuagint, uh, which is the greek translation of the hebrew

48:09

The jews understood it to just to be that he stretched out the the north north wind

48:15

Boreas Aurora borealis, which is interesting the boreas Upon nothing, uh epi udace and he hangs the earth

48:25

Upon nothing epi udace again. So it's just saying that it just they're just there. They're not suspended on anything

48:31

I think the idea of what's going on in joke 26 7 is That uh, it's the earth is not a round disc, uh on back of turtles

48:38

Things like that. It's out there in nothing That's that's what it seems to be saying. That's what the septuagint is clearly teaching as well right, do you think that there's a uh possible different translation that uh, that you could get out of it because it it seems like uh,

48:57

I mean just by the look of it, uh You know, like there's so many other verses that seem to indicate like i'm not saying that this is the case but it seems to indicate like a flat earth or so like if you ever read, uh,

49:10

What was it the circle? Yeah, that's not uh, this is not supporting um flat earth anything.

49:17

I hope you're not leaning towards that. Uh, no not at all I was just wondering though because if the bible talks about how uh, you know the earth cannot be moved and all that it seems very confusing like some of the

49:28

Uh verses because it's hard to decipher at times, uh metaphorical between historical, right exactly

49:35

He moved the earth can't be moved. Well, what does it mean? We have an earthquake see it moved It's not talking about that kind of sense

49:41

Uh, it's solid it's structured. It's it's immovable. But of course god knows it's orbiting around the sun

49:48

I mean, he's not talking about that kind of a sense Uh, the solidification the solidity of the of the world of the earth

49:56

You can trust it it's going to be there, you know This kind of thing is what's being being spoken out there have to be careful to the biblical text.

50:03

Also, you know The idea that the bible is inspired does not negate that god allowed the writers to utilize the language, uh structures of their day

50:12

There's definitely that perspectival issue that people are writing from their perspective as they observe it

50:18

Matt has made mention of this, you know The sun rising the sunset especially when you study a word too And you explore its semantic domain

50:25

You got to be careful that the semantic domain does not mean that the word can mean all of those things all the time

50:31

The way you pick within the semantic domain needs to fit the context And of course when we're reading the scripture, we believe that it's inspired by god 2nd.

50:38

Timothy 3 16 and that god doesn't contradict himself So when there's an option amongst the words

50:44

Um that if we adopt if we accept that the word means one thing within its semantic domain and adopting that particular option

50:52

Causes us to contradict other areas of scripture. That's a warning sign as well We want to be able to read things in context and in ways that don't contradict clearly what the bible teaches elsewhere

51:02

And taking into perspective that perspectival issue where people are writing from their perspective

51:09

Um, I think that's very important when you're interpreting scripture You're right. And you know, it confuses me though because you know in uh, joshua it says that the sun stopped moving and you know, like why would uh, god allow joshua to write something like that in a metaphorical sense and uh,

51:27

Then it always gives me the question is job chapter 26 verse 7, uh to be taken Uh literal is it really meaning what it says it means or is it trying to say a metaphorical thing that we don't understand?

51:39

Yeah, it may be that you have to be careful though, too that the bible is not a science text and so whereas it tells us true things about Uh nature it's not doing that exhaustively and so we have to be careful it takes training too to differentiate between A poetic kind of something being described poetically perspectively and things like that and that takes work

51:59

But yeah, it can be challenging But we don't want to make the bible say what it doesn't say and we don't want to impose our understandings on the ancient context

52:07

Kind of looking at things anachronistically right Personally, I just interject. I do believe the sun stopped

52:14

But I believe what happened is that the earth's angle of rotation or axis was changed

52:19

I think god did this kind of thing. There's no problem with that at all And and I like that you said that matt because most apologists don't say that now

52:28

I don't know how to understand that passage right off the top of my head, but there is no There's nothing illogical with the idea that god could have done that Could have

52:40

It's not illogical. It's just it's just against what we know of nature But that doesn't make it that doesn't that does not necessitate that god could do that if he so desired

52:50

Why not god could just take the earth and have it tilt so that the earth the sun looked like it stood still

52:56

Or he could have stopped the earth So it did stand still in the earth, you know, no big deal

53:02

What's wrong with saying the question matt if the earth is rotating could god stop the rotation of the earth? While also allowing us not to feel the fact that it stopped.

53:11

Yes Exactly. So there are a lot of things that god can do Uh, you know, i'm not saying that that's exactly what he what he did in that case

53:18

But I mean we can't we can't cancel those out because your presuppositions in world view will dictate what is possible and impossible

53:24

What seems irrational? Right a while back. I was speaking to an expert on this and uh,

53:31

Just just some person and anyways what they were saying since they studied hebrew is that basically from joshua's perspective the sun did stop but uh, you know god wanted people at that time to understand it because of uh,

53:45

You know people from back then who really didn't understand all the things in the solar system read it who may not have been

53:51

Uh joshua or so, uh, you know, many people would probably question it or so and that's what uh, that guy was saying

53:59

I think it stopped Something actually happened and they recorded it

54:04

I don't think we have to subject the bible to what the modern physics says can and can't happen

54:09

Well, if we were to do that, then jesus didn't rise from the dead. He didn't walk on water right Physics can't tell us what can and cannot happen.

54:20

It only can tell us what happens No, right

54:25

I've i've also had this other question. This has been bugging me for so long now But are there any and this kind of goes back more well actually forward more into the new testament

54:35

But are there people who were secular, uh writers other than tacitus who wrote about jesus's miracles?

54:43

uh around the time of you know, his crucifixion and all because You know, like the things they did were just amazing.

54:50

So I mean i've always wondered uh, why aren't there that many people writing on him other than you know, josephus and tacitus and josephus wasn't until much later

54:59

Well, you got to understand in the culture of the roman empire there was a doctrine called caesaral papism caesaral papism is emperor worship

55:06

And so it would be politically incorrect and suicidal For a roman citizen to start saying that jesus christ was doing all these things

55:15

And about writing about it because if he wrote about it Which most people didn't write and they hire someone to do the writing hire a scribe or an amanuensis to do that To do that would be to incur an expense and then to publicly say we saw this kind of a thing

55:29

And they would risk being persecuted by the roman empire. The reason the roman empire allowed the jews to do what they were doing was because of their

55:37

History the jews hit their history of fighting against oppressors in order to hold of their god And plus it was right in the middle of nowhere.

55:45

And so the roman empire let them do the things that they were going to do so uh, the romans the jews themselves were in a kind of a a

55:55

Tenuous relationship with the roman empire and so they didn't want things to go south either.

56:01

So what happened was The jews as well as the roman citizens and most of the jews were roman citizens because they're born in the roman empire roman occupation

56:11

Then they were not going to want to make waves So if you go around saying hey Jesus did all this stuff where the jews would be after you and the romans would probably be after you

56:21

So it's one of the reasons you're not going to get a whole bunch of writing about stuff like that But it did exist and we do have those things written in the gospels.

56:29

We have other documents gathered and understood I think an important thing to what's your name again?

56:37

I'm, sorry. My name's nathan If you don't mind me asking how old are you? Uh 15

56:42

All right, great questions, by the way That's awesome That you're thinking about those things Um, I think it's also important to recognize too that it is quite amazing that we have anything from the first century

56:51

Um, that's you know, it's amazing that why don't we have sources outside of the new it's amazing that we have 27 things written

56:58

Is there anything important you're working on right now? I'm, sorry Christopher what?

57:05

It's actually I actually need it for about 15 20 minutes or so Can you what?

57:18

Okay Yeah, I wasn't sure what you were saying What what I was trying to say is that it's amazing that we have anything come out from the first century.

57:25

So um, you know a lot of what we have Uh was recorded and passed on and a lot that has been written has been lost um, there there is a library in alexandria egypt, which has been referred to by many of the uh, um, you know the early church fathers and things like that that contain really

57:42

Juicy information that we would have loved to have had but the library was burnt down if you're right

57:48

It's the history of the church He actually makes reference to a letter correspondence between jesus and some ruler that wanted him to come in And heal one of his family members now how amazing that we can find a correspondence letter written by jesus

58:01

So we don't have those things but that doesn't mean people didn't write them and jesus didn't write or or had someone write

58:07

I mean, we know there's a lot that we don't know But it's amazing that what we have is what we have in the condition that it's in right, and you know, like I i'm the type person who if I don't understand some

58:17

I do like three to five hours of Research on it. Like I just have to get the answer to it of some variety and Isn't an answer to uh right away

58:26

Um, or there might not be an answer at all to that You know, we can actually get so like when

58:31

I actually do the research and all uh, so, you know Like sometimes it's a year later and i'm like man. I finally got the answer to it but uh a lot of things with jesus like, you know, the early church and all i've had lots of questions on and i've i've uh,

58:44

I think i've studied a little bit on the reference books and all how they've been lost throughout the centuries of some of the writers during the time of jesus and I think that's pretty amazing that there were reference books and all that, uh, we're almost like commentaries to the whole bible but uh, you know when it comes to the resurrection and all it always just gives me questions though because uh,

59:04

The miracles that are like being observed in all uh by all the apostles like, you know, paul it's quite amazing because like, you know,

59:12

I was discussing this with the uh person in school today, but you know, so, uh, Paul was beheaded and he was a pharisee.

59:19

He had everything he wanted. Why would he be beheaded for something? You know that seemed almost uh futile if it was wrong

59:26

So, I mean that that's just one thing of course, but uh, there's many other examples that uh, are just amazing that uh make

59:33

Christianity stand out but Uh, I you know, like I do have questions mainly on jesus's miracles

59:41

Uh, especially corresponding to other apostles like luke or so Like how did luke write so much on jesus or so when he never even saw jesus like until much later well, luke is a

59:54

Traveling companion with the apostle paul. Are you familiar with that? Uh, yes, I think I am and paul

01:00:00

Um, not only witnessed the risen lord because he appeared to him on the road to damascus, but we know that paul had

01:00:06

Contact with the other apostles which which did know he did know jesus And so, um, he actually spent time with them and could have easily gotten information

01:00:14

Uh of firsthand information by eyewitnesses And I think that's what makes the new testament so fascinating is that I mean it's very clear indication that there are these are

01:00:24

Eyewitness accounts or written by people who knew eyewitnesses Um, which is unheard of when you get things that come out of the first century think copies of these things that we have today

01:00:33

So yeah, he might have he might not have known jesus personally But the connection he has with paul and paul's connection with the apostle peter

01:00:40

Um, and I think john was it john also that he met i'm not sure. I don't remember matt when he went so Well, he was a researcher and he apparently was commissioned

01:00:50

There's a theory about it commissioned by theophilus to write and wrote the book of luke and uh acts

01:00:56

And some people think that it might have been uh in support of paul's legal defense when in act 17 when he

01:01:03

Appealed to caesar went to rome where he wrote like philippians, for example So something that might have been a legal document

01:01:09

But he was a researcher would have access to the apostles and others. So, uh, he did a very good job of researching

01:01:16

Right, and you have someone like mark who is uh, very well Emanuensis of peter

01:01:23

Emanuensis of someone who would write who would write while someone is dictating to them and oftentimes they can use their own stylistic, you know ways of writing to kind of Convey what the speaker is saying, but there's again

01:01:33

The connection to an eyewitness is so close there if if it's not already written by an eyewitness, for example

01:01:39

Um, you know, I I believe at least john the apostle wrote the gospel of john So right there you have eyewitness account

01:01:46

And what's interesting about the gospel of john is that it gives you details of a pre Um a pre -ad 70 israel and the temple and things like that that only a first -hand witness would would know um, because in 80 70 the temple was destroyed and so the landscape of israel that time was was very different, uh,

01:02:04

Than during the time of jesus yet here you have the gospel of john giving us very very great details as to what?

01:02:10

Jerusalem looked like uh prior to its destruction things like that So there's a lot of indication within the text itself that we're getting really good eyewitness.

01:02:18

Um information right, so did luke, uh, you said the road to damascus so did luke actually see christ, uh when he was resurrected or Because I know that mark saw luke for I mean, uh, jesus for part of his life uh

01:02:33

And matthew was basically his whole life Well, most of his life not his whole life, but a lot more of his life

01:02:38

And uh, and you know, then then there's the main followers and all but uh It's made me wonder because I think luke also went to other people who also like not the apostles

01:02:49

But people in the area who reported on uh, christ's miracles Right, you have uh, luke writing an account.

01:02:56

Um, and that he acknowledges that other accounts were written as well So yes, he's drawing from information from other people, but his primary information is coming from From eyewitness because he's writing what he's writing a more sure account

01:03:10

Right, there's many things that have been written But here i'm giving you the juicy details, uh, because i'm getting it from from a good source

01:03:16

And if anyone doubts that source is good, we can just recognize that luke, uh knew paul

01:03:21

I think it's very interesting in the way that the book of acts is written You have a narration of the growth of the early church

01:03:28

And then you have the switch in language they they they they they they and then we we we we we we where luke is

01:03:36

Actually writing in a fashion that he himself Is an eyewitness to the very events that he's recording

01:03:41

And that would include the witnessing of certain miracles and things that god did through the early church and through the apostle paul

01:03:47

And so on and so forth right, so uh

01:03:52

I I didn't think I worried. This is really that clearly but uh, in fact, I did not word it now that I remember but uh,

01:04:00

Did uh, the bible record like who luke talked to other than the 12 apostles or was it just the 12 apostles?

01:04:06

He got the information from Yeah, I don't think it mentioned them by name. Um Yeah, but I I wouldn't say that that's not

01:04:14

I mean again, uh, the ancient writing wasn't like, you know, chicago style Essay papers now we have notes where he got

01:04:21

I say chicago because that was when I was at college. That was the uh, The bibliographical format we had to write in where you kind of have the reference.

01:04:29

They didn't do that back in the day Um, all we know is the information that he does have is accurate and touches the eyewitnesses but of course

01:04:36

There's probably many other eyewitnesses that that aren't mentioned by name, but that's kind of a moot point

01:04:42

I think right yeah, that that is interesting for sure and um

01:04:49

Cool, you said your name was nathan? Yes, my name is nathan. Yeah Think about it dude the new testament

01:04:56

They were 2 000 years old and we and we have these documents that can be traced into the very

01:05:04

Lifetime of the people who claim to have witnessed it. I mean Taking that by itself is not a knockdown argument for the truth of christianity, but that's really unique You have nothing like that coming out of the ancient world

01:05:15

Which shows how carefully and meticulously the documents preserved and copied and things like that I think that's from a historical perspective like super awesome and interesting and from a christian perspective very comforting that Um god has given us these documents and there's really good reason to to put our trust in them

01:05:34

Right it for sure You know, I do a lot of uh research on history of the bible itself

01:05:42

And you know there's always this one thing that or there's one thing or so always one simple thing that uh, people try to use to disprove different things and uh, a while back uh,

01:05:55

I think uh matt and I were speaking on jericho and I was saying about the carbon 14 date giving a different Year range from the actual event, even though it uh really adds up perfectly everything.

01:06:06

It seems to uh be joshua for sure Uh, what what are we to do in in such cases when uh, you know carbon 14 is different or there's some little thing that just they they say contradicts the whole thing and all like what are we to do and like Such, you know, like the minuscule things seem to like be the things that just seem the most confusing at times

01:06:27

Well nathan when you say contradiction a contradiction implies a violation of the second law of logic

01:06:32

And so it's very important that we define what that is and then go back and explore whether carbon 14

01:06:39

Contradicts the data a contradiction is when a statement cannot be both true and false in the same way

01:06:45

And in the same at the same time and in the same sense So just because carbon dating might give us something that's contrary

01:06:53

Carbon dating is not an ultimate absolute standard by which all truth is measured

01:06:58

Um, great. We can trust carbon dating and i'm i'm not You know, i'm not talking against carbon dating

01:07:03

But it doesn't end all debate when something is part of the data in a certain way Because even carbon dating comes along with its, you know, the data has to be interpreted, you know

01:07:12

You approach the whole issue with presuppositions and commitments and that's going to affect the way you look at the data

01:07:18

Are you going to say something yet? Yeah carbon dating assumes that there's a certain rate of carbon decay that occurs that there's no been

01:07:24

There has not been an external force of carbon introduction or such

01:07:30

Removal through external means that's one thing plus they have found. Um, They have found

01:07:38

They've dated live things to be 14 000 years old. There are some problems with it, but you don't really hear about it

01:07:45

Yeah, carbon dating is applied to organic materials. Mostly. It has nothing to do with history.

01:07:50

That's right, right? in fact, uh just recently I Researched this but I found out that there's this uh eruption that happened

01:07:59

I forget the name of the actual eruption that where it was But anyways, they carbon 14 dated it and they gave about the exact same age range difference, uh that you know

01:08:09

Jericho gave uh to this mountain or this uh eruption they knew the exact date of the eruption yet About 100 years earlier.

01:08:17

So it was incorrect and uh, and this was something that they had trust in so that you know they either have to reject the dating methods or they have to reject that that actually happened at that time and you know, it's a

01:08:30

Or we take carbon dating with a grain of salt and we hold a balanced view But when we challenge the results of carbon dating, we're not you know, we don't want to come across as rejecting science

01:08:41

Yes, science is useful, but it always needs to be placed in the proper context. It's not absolute

01:08:46

I I because christians will say carbon dating is not accurate and then when it seems to support their own view

01:08:51

Look carbon dating is accurate. You have to have a balance we use it It's helpful, but it's not the absolute and final word.

01:08:58

And so it's important to keep in mind Science needs to be put in its proper context.

01:09:03

You know when people say something has been proven with as a scientific fact Um, you don't speak of a hundred percent certainty in science

01:09:11

It's impossible because that's not what science gets you the very method does never gets you to certainty

01:09:17

And so we got to be careful how much um How much we give over to science we usually give more than what science itself actually tries to guess

01:09:25

It's useful, but it's a practice. It's a practical tool You know, it's not an app. It's not an absolute truth finding tool.

01:09:32

That makes right Oh, yes, that makes complete sense. And uh as I do more research on this

01:09:38

I find compelling evidence that again, these archaeological dig sites do really mount up to joshua, but Uh or not joshua by any other event and uh, you know

01:09:51

I I think there was one thing that I was studying a little while back, but it was the tower of babel Uh, if i'm not mistaken

01:09:57

It was a real thing because uh some of the people back in you know earlier times reported on Seeing it on their way to babylon

01:10:05

Right, but but you have to be careful too. It's a real thing because it's also recorded In the bible you see a lot of people think that if something

01:10:13

Outside the bible mentions it that that somehow validates it because there is that the bible mentions certain things that it's not mentioned anywhere um in in other sources and only later to find that When people say see look bible's the only place that it mentions it then they discover something and say oh

01:10:31

Actually other people acknowledge it as well So sometimes the bible can be the only source where we have this information and later demonstrated

01:10:37

Well, the bible was actually correct when everyone thought the bible was wrong because it was the only source This isn't a point in case with the the hittite people, right?

01:10:46

I've studied that with that. Yeah, so so I have to be careful We don't think that certain things are true In the bible merely by an external reference by some other source because that's to give that external reference more authority than the bible itself

01:10:59

Right and and that's very that that would make complete sense and uh many things Uh, like you were saying have been proven, uh later in time

01:11:08

Uh, and you know the bible mentioned it but there's no proof of it outside the bible

01:11:14

So you're right the the bible does hold true. Uh About that real quick.

01:11:19

You said it There's no proof of it except the bible as though the bible is not its own proof

01:11:26

You see that there's an issue there. There's almost a bias, you know people say, you know, one atheist told me

01:11:31

Demonstrate to me the truth of the bible without using the bible and I said i'd be happy to do that if you can demonstrate the truth of atheism only using the bible and he was like I'm, like well, so was your request we can't ignore

01:11:44

The bible as a source of information you see when people say there's no proof outside the bible that already presupposes a bias

01:11:51

Against the bible in other words. It's not a reliable source and that's that's a bias right and we sometimes engage in that kind of Interaction and what we do is we we kind of look at History as as this this sort of neutral thing where we need to look at these things in an unbiased fashion

01:12:09

Listen, when someone says let's be neutral they're being biased because they're biased against the bible which says we can't be neutral Committed to scripture even when we do history.

01:12:19

We need to hold firm to the word of god And even if the world says there's no evidence for this

01:12:25

We hold on to god's truth and because god's truth will true all truth is god's truth We know that information will come out later on.

01:12:32

We don't need that information to confirm something that's in the bible right That's very true.

01:12:38

And uh, you know, like so so much to me confirms the bible and so little is confusing

01:12:43

Not that doesn't confirm it. I would never say such a thing because to be honest with you

01:12:49

I believe that sooner or later or even in the very end or so, you know, it will come out to be true

01:12:55

And it's it's always true. It's always been true. But uh, there's different things I have questions on and I think uh,

01:13:02

When I start to actually understand things better and I do more research I I get more questions, but I get more answers and uh, right

01:13:10

I don't know if there's a certain way I should be researching because you know The way I research is I just go on, you know

01:13:17

I look on uh one site then another site then another site and I I use Like can

01:13:22

I give you can I give you a really important advice and it's going to sound really christian -y but it's it's it's really important Uh, sure the way to do history as a christian is to be fully committed and relentlessly consistent with this statement

01:13:38

Jesus christ is lord over all That includes the very historical process

01:13:46

Because a lot of people engage in history as though it is this Discipline and methodology that is independent of our religious commitments

01:13:55

When you and here's an is it important because we tend to be swayed this way and that by evidence, right?

01:14:01

Well, I have evidence here Well now there's doesn't seem like there's evidence here and we're we're we're kind of flowing back and forth over evidence evidence evidence

01:14:09

We need to be committed to christ And he is our unwavering foundation and he is the lord over evidence evidence itself can't make sense

01:14:18

Without jesus christ being lord over it So if you look at history through the lens of a christian worldview, not only will you find that the study of history is very fruitful

01:14:27

But you'll also understand that history is to be interpreted in light of god's sovereignty and providence and you begin to see the wonderful Beauty of god's plan unfold throughout history

01:14:37

So even in the the scholarly discipline of the study of history You're now also being moved to worship the god that sovereignly moves throughout history

01:14:45

And so it is more enriching than just dry in a dry way kind of looking at historical events and you know

01:14:51

Kind of piecing these things together that have no real connection Worldview history is is a united whole and an unfolding and unraveling of god's um, beautiful plan

01:15:01

Right, that's very true. And you know, I i've always had this, uh tough problem though Um, because i've always like I always want like if I hear one side of the argument

01:15:12

I always want to go to the other side. I always want to see the other side and I want to make sure that like I can uh find arguments against the other side if Uh what i'm believing is true and and that's always been my problem and when

01:15:24

I do that I seem to get into more conundrum because I I I guess I pursue so much of an answer that I go to 20 different sources and I have no answer

01:15:35

Right, right. And again, you have to understand there's no scholar who Again, this is just the nature of history and the nature of history you're dealing with high probability

01:15:45

Except when you're dealing with divine history, you see because when we do history from an Autonomous man -centered finite perspective you can only have probability

01:15:54

But when you take god's word at his word and it's based upon the all -knowing god who created everything and moves history in the way

01:16:01

That he does the statements historically that are given to us in scripture. We can trust with You know knowing that we have a strong foundation for believing that because it is the omniscient god who tells us

01:16:12

You see the secular historian doesn't presuppose that and so history by its very definition must be probabilistic

01:16:18

All right, and there's there's a problem that since since probability presupposes certainty

01:16:25

Which comes from their own philosophical perspective, which is itself not subject to the historical

01:16:32

Investigation so even the secular historian You know confronts his historical studies with a whole worldview that dictates how he interprets certain things

01:16:40

So, uh, we need to recognize our own intellectual framework Which is which is itself grounded in the word of god and then engage in the study of history unto the glory of god

01:16:51

I think that's hugely important never never separate your studies From the lordship of jesus christ over that area

01:16:57

Once you do that, then you're swayed this way of that Well this evidence that evidence this evidence that evidence in reality all evidence belongs to god.

01:17:05

I don't think that you know history is One way of pointing to evidence.

01:17:10

I think everything is evidence for god and if everything's evidence for god Then there's no such thing as evidence against god

01:17:18

That's a strong point you make uh, really strong I think that uh a lot of this, um

01:17:26

You know a lot of the things i've been researching over the probably four or five years I have been researching all this

01:17:32

I i've found some really strong arguments for christianity Uh, and you know, it's not even uh, just going out to sources and all

01:17:41

I mean some of it can be but you know It can just be as simple just reading the bible I've I I think that when

01:17:46

I actually read the bible and I actually start to do the Studies on it and not just read it from a standpoint where I didn't really know what

01:17:53

I was reading I was just reading it because I thought it was interesting, but I actually knew the background to it and the history, you know, like again, like with paul being a pharisee or uh luke being a

01:18:04

Gentile or so, you know all these different things seem to play a huge role Into you know what the bible is and the fact that it is the way it is

01:18:13

Uh, I find quite amazing. I I think that uh, if it was any other book of some sort like the quran or so It wouldn't be pieced together like this.

01:18:21

It's not by other With you know other witnesses and uh, I don't know if you mind me bring this up But a while back when

01:18:29

I was in scouts this one kid said, uh that jesus, uh, You know didn't speak his own testimony.

01:18:36

So therefore he's crazy. He he said that in Another way, he said in more of a mocking way and I can't remember the exact words, but I thought to myself um, you know, like what's he trying to say here jesus is illiterate and I I did research and all and I realized

01:18:50

Hold on a second. The whole point of jesus not writing. The bible is just that the apostles were there to actually give uh

01:18:59

Reasons, you know the evidence right there reasons that jesus really was a son of god because if jesus wrote the whole thing

01:19:05

Is it really credible? Uh, I mean It it would seem a lot more credible to me if other people wrote it.

01:19:12

Uh and gave Testimony to what jesus did than just jesus writing it. Yeah, that's an that's a very interesting point

01:19:18

I think that's a good perception on your part and it's very interesting when someone says jesus couldn't write My my first question is and you you know, you know this how well people back then it's like listen

01:19:29

There are people I can go through to a group of people that are known to be illiterate generally That doesn't mean everyone in that group literally can't read or can't write or whatever

01:19:38

I think people are presumed especially when when people are putting so much purchase in this whole like empirical investigation

01:19:44

If you're so much into empirical investigation, why are you making statements about what jesus can or cannot do that's not itself based on observation

01:19:52

I don't know I don't know how many languages he he knew Uh, he might have known more languages than we think he knew he might have been able to write, you know

01:20:00

I think where people are being very presumptuous and their and their presuppositional bias comes out when they say stuff like that Right and that that's definitely for sure um

01:20:11

It and I think that's really the way it is like in general like I I I try witness to people sometimes

01:20:18

Like at my school and I go to a public school So like when I witness to people it's not really super easy all the time because a lot of people are very mocking

01:20:27

I mean some people are very kind and like they're not even christian some of them but they're very kind because they Listen, and they actually try to hear what i'm trying to say and not just uh mock me for what i'm saying

01:20:37

But then there's other kids who are very mocking like I I Don't even understand why they're mocking when really they didn't hear my side yet, you know, right, right and you know what and i'm actually happy that you said that because it's it's hard I work at a

01:20:51

Middle school high school I've worked I've worked in the uh, can you hear me? I hear talking at the same time.

01:20:57

I'm, sorry Oh, no, I think uh, there was a lag right there. Oh my bad. I thought someone was trying to say something.

01:21:04

I didn't want to Well, maybe someone else does want to get in there Let's get in there five minutes and see if anybody else wants to ask anything, but go ahead keep going yeah, well what

01:21:12

I wanted to say was I wanted to uh, Because I work in a school and I work with kids middle school high school and kids can be rather harsh

01:21:18

And I just want to commend you for standing up for the truth in that in that context and don't be discouraged

01:21:23

When people are mocking, uh, one guy told me a quick story where um, two guys went hunting one used one guy

01:21:30

Used a bow and arrow and the other guy used a gun and they were kind of Kind of competing with one another who can shoot the deer first and and all of a sudden, you know

01:21:38

They heard a loud sound and the guy ran They ran over to see who killed the deer first and the guy with the arrow says

01:21:44

I got him I got him and his friend with the gun says no you didn't I have your arrow right over here Um, what actually happened was that the arrow went right through the deer it went right through the deer

01:21:56

So it was actually the arrow that that hit and later on the app where they found the deer up the road And he ended up, you know dead and the point of the story that they were that they were bringing to me when

01:22:06

I heard this story was that Your arguments may not seem as though they've hit the mark

01:22:12

But if you actually present a strong case for the gospel god can use the arrow of your words

01:22:20

To actually produce really the the intended result later on when that person is lying home in bed thinking about what you did, you know

01:22:28

For all intents and purposes you failed because they rejected you and mocked you But god still uses the wound of the arrow that you shot in their heart

01:22:36

Because you were using god's word and and firmly standing up for it. So I I encourage you and uh, you know

01:22:41

Don't judge success in defending your faith Um by what you can see empirically because god works in the heart oftentimes.

01:22:47

He's doing things you can't see Right i'm i'm gonna let you guys go and that's that's a great point and i'm gonna have to reflect on everything that I heard um over these past a few minutes and uh

01:22:58

I i'm gonna let you guys go though for a night and god bless you guys and have a great night Thank you

01:23:07

Good anybody else have any comments or questions you want to ask? We have morgan in here elias,

01:23:13

I believe christopher Wanted to talk Go ahead christopher Can you hear me?

01:23:23

Unmute him. I had to mute him earlier because of something. Okay, great christopher. You should be able to talk now Okay.

01:23:29

Yeah this I have a question for you man I know you're on your website. You mentioned that you're a continuationist in regards to the apostolic sign gifts, right?

01:23:36

Yes Why do you say why do you say apostolic sign gifts? I guess in regards to that debate, that's the

01:23:44

Term i've heard at least or at least among people I follow Well, if you say apostolic sign gifts and that automatically means that they're for the apostles

01:23:54

So I would just say the charismatic gifts are for today Okay, well,

01:24:00

I guess my question is more in regards to from since you're from a continuationist perspective How would you respond to a guy who claimed to have seen like a demon?

01:24:09

Attracted to some burnt eggs that were at the guy's house. Well, I can't understand you. He says what? Oh, sorry

01:24:14

Okay, um a few weeks ago there was a Bethel church pastor Um who wrote an article claiming that um, he saw demons in his house because the demon was attracted to some burnt eggs

01:24:30

Okay I know it's it's crazy and I guess article matt. Yeah, this is silly

01:24:36

Yes So i'm okay, I guess the short story is i'm I come from the cessationist standpoint

01:24:41

So I I would have I would I would know how to respond to that But i'm actually curious to understand your perspective.

01:24:47

How would you respond to a claim like that? I say show me in the bible where it says demons are attracted to burnt eggs

01:24:55

I mean, uh, just show me the bible, you know That was hard for you to say it wasn't a match.

01:25:01

Yeah, like they're burnt eggs. What happens to burnt toast? You know the burnt toast repel them

01:25:06

If if someone saw a demon how could they actually observe the reason why the demon's there

01:25:12

How do they know the demon's there because of the burnt eggs? There's so many things wrong with that Yeah I agree

01:25:19

And I don't think I don't think there's anything to do with the gifts I mean, what what do spiritual gifts have to do with the reality and that they interact with with with people

01:25:32

You know what I mean Yeah, that's a good question and let me ask you Why are you a cessationist?

01:25:41

I guess when it comes to the um, the sign gifts and stuff I guess i've been convinced by scripture through like um people from like say master seminary and also through my own study that You're over modulated or something.

01:25:53

Let me turn you down or something because it's hard to understand. Okay now say something Okay, um, basically from first corinthians 14 all those passages.

01:26:01

I've I've just been think that the well, do you know of any? Do you know of any verses in the bible that say the charismatic gifts are going to cease?

01:26:10

I thought in first corinthians 14 like when you go like when they talk about Yeah, I guess it's been once i've been in that chapter, but I thought it was somewhere in there

01:26:19

First corinthians 13 the perfect when the perfect comes the imperfect shall pass away basically

01:26:25

Yeah here. Let me show you something um I'm going to go to first corinthians 1 7 i'm going to read it to you.

01:26:32

I have it memorized but I want to Read it to you. I want you to understand what it's saying So that you are not lacking in any gift as you await for the revealing

01:26:45

For the return for the revelation of our lord jesus You're not lacking in any gift charisma

01:26:52

The corinthian church is written to the corinthians, but to all of us also because it's universal That you're not to lack any gift while you're waiting for jesus to come back any charismatic gift.

01:27:02

All right Now you see that yeah okay, so Right with the very beginning what paul the apostle does is he equates the continuation of the of the gifts

01:27:17

To the issue of the return of christ, doesn't he? So that you're not lacking in any gift awaiting eagerly the revelation of our lord jesus christ

01:27:27

You're not lacking in any gift the word gift. There's charisma where revelation is apocalypsis

01:27:33

So we're not to lack any gift any charisma awaiting eagerly the revelation of our lord.

01:27:38

Jesus christ All right Are you with me so far? Yes, I am okay, so what paul the apostle is doing is equating and There's not equating but relating the two of them uh together

01:27:55

Okay, there's uh Let me get this. Okay There's uh, just you know, not like lacking any charisma while you're waiting for the revelation of christ his return

01:28:06

That's what it's talking about. All right Okay Just so you know the wages of sin is the wages of sin is death

01:28:14

But the free gift of god is eternal life the word gift there is charisma The wages of sin is death, but the free charisma of god is eternal life

01:28:23

If all the charismatic gifts have ceased then there's a problem. This is why the guys who formate Formate wow formulate the argument will say

01:28:32

The apostolic sign gifts what they'll do is they'll say this is what they are by definition

01:28:38

That's a problem That's not what it's there for Okay now when you go to first corinthians 13 8 through 10

01:28:48

It says and i'll read it to you and i'll show you something Let the scriptures speak I would debate macarthur on this if you would have me debate um first corinthians 13 eight

01:28:59

Uh, let's get nine for we know in part we prophesy in part But when the perfect comes a partial will be done away

01:29:04

So they're perfect that they're going to say is the the completion of the bible, right? Yeah, specifically what they would say yes.

01:29:11

Yeah, so when the bible is completed, okay, that's what he's talking about Okay When as a child

01:29:16

I spoke as a child, etc We can skip verse 11 because this talks about putting away childish things verse 12 for now

01:29:22

We see in a mirror dimly, but then Face to face. So when the perfect comes then we see face to face when the bible's completed then we see face to face

01:29:33

That makes sense Now when you say face to face are you talking about like the return of christ thing that you mentioned earlier or something differently?

01:29:41

There you go. You're asking the right questions I'm, just saying right now when the when the bible is completed. Is that when we see face to face?

01:29:48

I'm, just asking the question What about this now? I know in part, but then when the bible is completed,

01:29:53

I will know just as I have been fully known well Just so it happens when you do a search for the word face to face um

01:30:05

It uh, let's see it almost always means a personal encounter

01:30:11

It's when god references it to himself in exegesis 32 30 exodus 33 11 number 12 8 deuteronomy 5 4 jeremiah 32 4

01:30:22

Uh, it speaks of personal encounter in new testament. Second corinthians 10 1 2nd. John 12 3 3rd.

01:30:28

John 14 so The perfect if it's the bible are we seeing face to face?

01:30:35

Or is the perfect the return of christ as first corinthians 1 7 seems to allude when jesus returns

01:30:42

Then we will see face to face That makes sense All right Also the second part now,

01:30:50

I know in part but then I will know fully just as I have been fully known I'm, not sure if you're aware of this

01:30:57

But jesus does not know everyone. Did you know that? I mean, yeah, I mean I hold to the five points of doctrines of grace and stuff.

01:31:04

So yeah, I agree with you Okay, so he just when he says I don't know you means you're not saved So if he says

01:31:09

I know you it means you are saved we see that pattern in scripture and I can go through it more But okay, so that's we will be fully known when we find the phrase of being known by god

01:31:21

We only find it in reference to the believers In a salvation sense. This is how the bible uses it

01:31:28

So when jesus returns the fullness of our knowing and having been fully known by christ will be manifested

01:31:35

Not when the bible is completed So the cessationist position

01:31:42

Doesn't work exegetically in my opinion. All right Plus not that this makes doctrine but you can find charismatic experiences all over the world

01:31:51

In third world countries things happen people say well, they're not documented. Well, yes they are and I can tell you for example

01:31:59

That once and I did this myself Very clearly I took a girl home from a bible study.

01:32:06

She wanted a book So I stopped it off at my place and gave her the book we got talking Her name was tony.

01:32:12

She was short blonde hair And she said that she was going to go to australia in two weeks to go on a mission out of nowhere

01:32:20

I just said you're not going to go you're going to stay in five months. You're going to meet a guy He's going to become your spiritual mentor in 18 months

01:32:28

You and he are going to have a special bond and you can do mission work together And then this presence was so to speak gone.

01:32:34

I couldn't believe what I just said Two weeks later she got on the plane and went to a jet when it went to australia

01:32:42

She got off the plane and or the jet and realized she was supposed to be there. She said it just was

01:32:48

Solid she just was supposed to be there. She got right back in the plane and came right back home Five months later she met a guy and he became her spiritual teacher

01:32:58

At 18 months they got married and they went and did missionary work together in england Now the reason i'm saying it is this isn't hearsay.

01:33:06

I did this and hopefully you can trust me that i'm intelligent spiritual Not lying to you, etc

01:33:13

And I would ask a person i've done this before if this if charismatic gifts are done How is it possible for me to do it?

01:33:19

This is not me saying I read it in a book third hand. I did it And i'll say so how do you explain that and what they usually do is say?

01:33:27

Well, I can't exegete your experience. I can't refer to it In other words, it doesn't fit in their worldview. So they just dismiss it with a sentence

01:33:34

I guess probably my question for you then is like, how did you know? They got that information directly from god versus like, um your own deducing, um capabilities

01:33:43

Uh, well if if that's the case then I I should be in a las vegas show where I could deduce things

01:33:50

But I can tell you that what happened was I remember a presence other than me

01:33:57

And I just knew and I spoke it real quick He just said how you know, you didn't deduce it when you deduce you have

01:34:07

Premise one premise two and based on those you deduce but based on your experience There is no information that could have been given to you that you can deduce that specific information.

01:34:16

That's right It's not the same as deduction. You're you're literally getting information that you could not have known

01:34:22

Nor could have deduced based on just driving someone home, you know five months and then 18 months

01:34:30

It's just not possible, right? So And this happened and I've had other things like this happen.

01:34:38

I can talk about this and say here's my personal experience Not that not that it makes uh doctrinal truth, but when you look at what the word of god says

01:34:48

Uh, it never says that the charismatic gifts are going to cease when the bible's completed You have to assume that the word perfect means the completion of the bible

01:34:56

But if that's the case, then how are we fully known? When the bible's completed How is that the case?

01:35:02

Uh, how is it that it says when the bible's completed that's when we see face to face How does that work?

01:35:08

It doesn't make sense to say it that way and first corinthians 1 7 We are not to lack any charisma while we're waiting for the return of christ

01:35:17

So Uh, I just And plus you're reformed, right?

01:35:24

Yes, I am. Okay here watch this. Okay You knew john knox was right?

01:35:30

Yeah, scott's presbyterian, um did a lot of open air preaching back in the day. Yeah, he's a hardcore calvinist, right?

01:35:37

Yes Uh John knox was an eminent wrestler and got of with god in prayer.

01:35:43

All right I'm going to read you something. I'm going to take a bit here. He was like likewise warm and empathetic in his preaching, etc, etc

01:35:51

Uh as an instance of this when he was oh, let me back up He was likewise warm and empathetic in his preaching in which such prophetical expressions

01:36:01

As dropped from him had the most remarkable accomplishment As an instance of this when he was confined at the castle of saint andrews

01:36:09

He foretold both the manner of their surrender and their deliverance from the french galleys

01:36:16

At another time he thus addressed himself to her queen. Mary husband lord Henry lord darnley while in the king's seat at the high church in edinburgh

01:36:26

Quote have you for the pleasure of that dainty dame cast the psalm book into the fire the lord shall strike both head and tail

01:36:35

End quotes what john knox said Both king and queen died violent deaths He likewise said when the castle of edinburgh held out for the queen against the regent that quote the castle should spew out the captain

01:36:48

With the shame to see him That he would not come out over the gate But over the wall at the tower called davis tower should run like a sand glass

01:36:57

Which was a few fulfilled a few years later Uh crookedly being obliged to come over the wall on a ladder with a staff in his hand

01:37:05

And said for work of castle running down the sandbrake uh The truth, okay, he said, uh, but he seen pulled let's see get to the sentence

01:37:16

Go he said on the day of this david lindsey. He he spoke. Uh, well brother I thank god. I desire all this day to have had to you etc

01:37:24

Go, I pray and tell them for me in the name of god that unless he leave that evil course

01:37:30

Wherein he has entered neither shall the rock meaning castle edinburgh Uh, nor the carnal wisdom of man whom he counteth half a god

01:37:38

Uh, but he shall be pulled out that next And brought down over the wall with shame and his carcass shall be hung before the sun so god has assured me

01:37:51

This is john knox saying that god is speaking a prophecy to him that god had assured this of john knox

01:37:58

The truth of this seemed to appear in a short time thereafter for it was thought that Leffington poisoned himself to escape public punishment.

01:38:06

He lay unburied in the steeple of lathe Until his body was quite corrupted But sir, william kirkedly of grange was on the 3rd of august next executed by the cross of edinburgh

01:38:16

Accordingly when he was cast over the ladder with his face toward the east when he present Uh thought was dead lifted his hands, etc.

01:38:23

Just like he said Um, that's george that's john knox

01:38:30

John fleming in 1630 to 1694 uh He left behind a writing and in it the string he talked about the strange and extraordinary impression

01:38:41

I had of an audible voice in the church at night when being a child I got up to the pulpit calling me to make haste the extraordinary dream and marvelous vision

01:38:50

I had twice repeated with the inexpressible joy after the same The dream at bouce where I got such expression warning as to my wife's removal.

01:38:59

Let's talk about her death Which the lord marvelous with the lord's marvelous appearance and presence the thursday after at st

01:39:06

Johnston the great and signal confirmations gave me at my wife's death the great extraordinary voice, etc.

01:39:13

I can go on and on These are called the presbyterian divines I got this information out of the book called the scott's worthies by john howey of lock going edinburgh, london printed in 1870

01:39:30

Okay And it talks about these things. So here's a question with those people

01:39:36

With those people john knox. Someone's Someone might turn their mic off or whatever

01:39:47

Okay, so I'll tell you a little bit of a story. Thanks when

01:39:52

I was at seminary and um I Lost my pastorate over this issue and I went back to sem west metro theological seminary

01:40:03

And they had a meeting on the charismatic gifts They almost asked me to come and speak and defend the charismatic side, but they didn't

01:40:10

Wish they had I would have been engaged in a debate with them a polite debate with professors and they had some excellent guys there and they presented information of um,

01:40:22

Of the cessation of the gifts I had this documentation That I just read to you and another one which

01:40:28

I haven't read to you yet But I had the documentation in my hand in a notebook And I raised my hand and I asked these guys

01:40:37

I said I have in my hand right here a Excerpt from a book

01:40:43

I got behind that wall behind that wall. I pointed was the library I got the book the scots word.

01:40:49

He's from that library right back on the other side of that wall And in that book it talks about george wishart.

01:40:55

John fleming. Um, george, uh, john john. What was it? Oh, who was the other guy the three guys?

01:41:03

Anyway, I said I have these books. Okay, and I said it talks about them Experiencing the charismatic gifts prophesying words of knowledge the whole bit.

01:41:12

These are calvinists Who did this? I said, how do you explain this? You know what?

01:41:18

They said I guess They said well, we haven't really looked at it too much. We're not sure what to do with it.

01:41:24

And that was it They knew about it And it didn't fit their paradigm

01:41:30

So they basically ignored it And the next version of the book scott's worthies had those things omitted out of them

01:41:38

Now, why is that reform people would do that? I guess it kind of depends, you know, sometimes people are convinced in their own positions

01:41:46

So they may not think the other side has anything worthy to offer. I know. Um, I know I know for me.

01:41:52

It's been a little while since i've done research in this top in this particular topic, but um, Yeah, I guess that might be why

01:41:59

Well, you check it out, you know and see but what does the bible say that we're not to lack any charisma while we're waiting for the return of christ

01:42:06

And here's another thing you can do Check this out. I did this. Um What you could do is actually go to For example, you could print it up.

01:42:16

You can um, just copy the text of the bible first corinthians 12 13 and 14 Just put them into a word document, whatever just as an experiment

01:42:25

And to keep this mindset you cross out The verses that no longer apply for us today

01:42:32

Because if the charismatic gifts have ceased So you don't seek to prophesy nope can't do that now

01:42:39

A word of knowledge is for the church. Nope cross that out And you'll find that if you do that, there's an awful lot of stuff to cross out

01:42:49

Then I got a question What is the only protestant new testament, excuse me protestant contemporary teaching that invalidates large portions of scripture?

01:43:01

Cessationism Okay, all right before I forget when you talk about words of knowledge.

01:43:09

Is there a particular like a particular? Verse within like first corinthians that comes to the term word of knowledge just so I know where you're coming from Yeah, first corinthians 14 word of knowledge word of wisdom

01:43:19

There's first corinthians 12 romans 12 and what you can do is you can go through those chapters You can look and see what the scriptures teach

01:43:26

But no one knows exactly what those are But let me give an example of something I was at a swap meet ministry, which

01:43:32

I did for two and a half years back in the early 80s And I my roommate dave and I would go out there at o dark 30 and set up a booth and pass out literature

01:43:43

Oh, you went out into the marketplace. So that's what we were doing Dave still in front of mine.

01:43:48

I can call him up I can call him up on the phone put him on speakerphone and he can tell you the story

01:43:54

And I was talking to a guy and I remember it very clearly this guy was telling me how Um, he would no longer believe in god and I was just talking to him and all of a sudden this presence

01:44:08

And I looked at this guy and I started telling him things That only he knew in his relationship with god and the things that god was pointing to him pointing out to him in his own heart

01:44:19

That he was denying before god And I remember just the knowledge of knowing this

01:44:26

I don't know how to describe it. It was a presence I was there saying it and I knew it for a fact

01:44:32

And then all of a sudden this presence just stopped. I was stunned and this guy literally stumbled backwards

01:44:41

His mouth was just he's like He was stunned And he didn't say a thing

01:44:48

And he i'm not kidding when I say he stumbled. He actually stumbled backwards. He was stunned and he just walked off And I just turned to my roommate

01:44:59

And I said david Did you feel that? And he said yes,

01:45:06

I did. What was that? I said, I don't know Well, I was talking to dave he's still a friend of mine talking to dave about this last year and he told me one other thing

01:45:15

He said matt he goes because I remember he was sitting down. He said matt. Don't you remember what happened? I said what?

01:45:21

He said while you were speaking there was something around you as though light was moving around you

01:45:29

Like a heat wave as light was kind of being altered I said really I said, I don't remember that he goes.

01:45:34

Yes. I saw it What do you do with that? I guess when you talk about the presence,

01:45:42

I know you mentioned that in two of the stories you've mentioned How do you know for sure that the presence was from the lord or how do you know that the present existed to begin with?

01:45:52

Well, I know the presence was there because I was there and experienced it, all right Well, how do you want me to prove it?

01:45:58

Want me to write it on a piece of paper and sign it to you and mail it to you see? No, that's what it is. Um, if it wasn't from the lord, then what was it?

01:46:08

I guess for me, I guess, um, even not even though I do trust you and I don't and obviously would not Accuse you or anything or whatnot.

01:46:15

It just seems like whenever I hear like, um Other charismatics talk about them feeling the presence of lord or whatnot

01:46:21

I tend to be really skeptical of that because I know we all have emotions. We all have feelings and stuff like that I guess for me my first go -to, um would be like Was there some sort of whether just some sort of feeling you had up or was there something that?

01:46:34

the lord the lord Put in you like that you all were able to deduce together. That'd be my first go -to

01:46:40

Let me just tell you I can't give you my experience, but i'll tell you this if it happened to you

01:46:45

You'd never doubt it That's all I can tell you. All right Um, it's like being in love, you know what it is when it happens.

01:46:53

How do you know you just do well prove it to me It doesn't work like that So the issue though i'm just giving you experiences

01:47:01

Look, i've got a master of divinity i'm an ordained minister been defending the faith for 39 years I'm, just telling you that there's somebody here who's reputable

01:47:09

Who's had his experience it's not third hand second hand I did this I'm, not using those as proofs of anything.

01:47:15

I'm just saying here we go. What do we do with these things? We have to compare them to scripture Well, the issue is of course does the scripture affirm or deny that the gifts continue?

01:47:25

Well, uh They don't They don't say they stop Except when jesus returns that seems to be the implication of the first Corinthians 1 7 and first Corinthians 13

01:47:36

And if the gifts have ceased then go through your bible and mark out the verses that no longer apply And seriously

01:47:44

And you know don't and also they'll say well if it's inspired of god, then it threatens the canon.

01:47:49

No, it doesn't Because in first corinthians 14, they were talking very clearly about things that were coming from the lord and they weren't canonized so, you know the the arguments that they have it's ridiculous and another thing is

01:48:03

This is just my observation that the people who hold a cessationism I don't see them out there risking anything

01:48:11

I don't see them out there risking in evangelistic contexts Going out there day after day and something happens not that that's that's a guarantee of anything

01:48:20

But i'll tell you there are lots of stories of people when you're doing nothing but trusting god and things happen

01:48:27

Not that it's going to happen all the time But calvinists we calvinists we often tend to sit in our chairs and then we pontificate about doctrine

01:48:38

And we're comfortable and we live in america and everything's nice We turn the lights on and we don't have to pray for miracles.

01:48:45

We've got everything we need. So let's exegete Very confidently why the gifts have ceased why because when the perfect comes that's the bible

01:48:52

And then we don't need any more because those are revelatory gifts. Those are sign gifts. That's what they'll say

01:48:59

And then you can if you want you go to my debates I did a public debates. Um Oh Waldron wasn't that like a year or two ago?

01:49:09

I'm, sorry Oh, I know you did one with sam waldron. Like was it a year or two ago in houston? Okay.

01:49:14

Yeah Yeah, I heard I heard about that one. You can check it out, you know And and i'm not saying I got it all down and I destroyed him i'm not gonna you know

01:49:20

No, no, no, you know, we had lunch together dinner together He's a nice guy, but i'm just telling you look at what the scripture says

01:49:26

What does first corinthians 1 7 say That you're not to lack any charisma

01:49:33

While you're waiting for the apocalypsis of jesus What do they do with that Well, I guess how do we like when it talks about any gift?

01:49:42

How do we know that words of knowledge are part as part of the any? I'm, sorry, what? Okay. Um I couldn't understand you.

01:49:51

It's a muffled connection. I didn't send the words. Okay. Sorry. Um I Is this better?

01:49:56

Yeah, I think so Okay so we were talking about the first corinthians 1 7 with the charisma when it talks about the

01:50:05

How do we know that the words of knowledge fall under the charisma category? Because it says not like any charisma

01:50:18

Okay, okay So, let me ask you If you're looking at first corinthians 1 7, okay, i'll look at the greek, okay and what it says is

01:50:34

Let me start at verse 4 I thank my god always concerning you for the grace of god, which he's given you in christ Jesus now some people say this is only to the corinthian church

01:50:41

But let me back up i'm gonna i'm gonna answer some stuff here Some people say no, this is only to the corinthian church and only apply to the corinthian church for that time

01:50:50

Okay now start at verse 1 paul called as an apostle of jesus christ by the will of god And saw us the knees our brother to the church of god, which is at corinth

01:50:59

To those who have been sanctified in christ. Jesus saints by calling with all who in every place

01:51:07

Call upon the name of our lord. Jesus christ our lord and ours So that makes it universal.

01:51:12

Would you agree? Yes Good Verse three grace to you in peace from god our father in the lord.

01:51:20

Jesus christ I thank my god always concerning you for the grace of god, which was given to you in christ Jesus that in everything you are enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge now

01:51:28

He's speaking to the corinthians specifically. No problem Even as a testimony concerning christ was confirmed in you so that you're not lacking in any gift awaiting eagerly the revelation of our lord jesus now

01:51:39

There's ways you could interpret this you could say you're not lacking any charismatic gift while you're waiting for jesus to return But it doesn't mean that once they the apostles die that the gifts cease when they come when the canon is completed

01:51:49

Because they're waiting there during that whole time. That's what's going that's what they'll say That's the best argument they've got out of that to say.

01:51:56

No, it's only for the corinthian church that he was talking about And so therefore when the apostles died the canon was completed

01:52:04

See during that process they're waiting for jesus to return. So not lacking any charismatic gift during that period of time

01:52:11

Until the apostles died the can is completed you see what i'm saying Yeah, I do

01:52:17

That's not what it says though So that you're not lacking any gift while you're waiting for the return of jesus and or the apostles die and the can is completed

01:52:28

Who will then also confirm to the end? That's not what it says What they'll do is they'll say this is what it means and they'll read all the stuff into there

01:52:36

Why do the calvinists do that? They should know better than that. What does it say? You're not lacking any charisma

01:52:43

Awaiting eagerly for the revelation of our lord. Jesus. Is it only for the corinthians or is it for everybody? If they want to say it's only for the corinthians then let's continue

01:52:53

Verse eight who will also confirm you to the end blameless in the day of our lord. Jesus christ. That could be the corinthians only

01:53:00

God is faithful through whom you are called into fellowship with his son christ. Jesus our lord. Is that only for the corinthians?

01:53:06

Of course not It's called that's that's for everybody. This is a universal letter So now are we to say well, uh verse one and two is is

01:53:17

Universal verses three four five six seven eight are only for the corinthians verse nine is now universal

01:53:25

Then we have what's called the j -e -d -p theory yahwist elohist, uh petraeus and deuteronomist, uh, the graph wellhausen

01:53:33

A theory of the pentateuch that there's four different authors. You see they wrote for this That's how you tell because it meant this in this sentence is this in this sentence is this in this sentences

01:53:42

The same kind of thing because what they're doing now is saying well look it just means this uh one issue for them at that point, but the other verses are you know,

01:53:51

Anyway, so what paul's doing is relating the charisma to the return of christ I've got a strong argument that this means it's universal

01:54:00

And therefore not to lack any charisma and if the charismatic gifts have ceased then eternal life is ceased

01:54:07

Now here's something else to show you and this is not what you call the best argument, but I want to show it to you

01:54:15

Are you familiar with abraham and isaac, right? Yes, and how abraham and isaac

01:54:23

Abraham offered up isaac, right? Yes Be familiar that that's a typology of the father and the son and the holy spirit

01:54:33

Um Not kind of know that it's a picture of like substitutionary atonement when they the ram comes

01:54:39

Um, let me explain some stuff here for you. I want to show you something This is a roundabout way to do it, but and it's a lesser support but God said to abraham take your only begotten son isaac

01:54:53

Okay Offer him on a hill Jesus crucified on the hill and most scholars think it's the very same hill uh

01:55:02

Isaac took a donkey to the place of sacrifice. So did jesus Two men went with them with isaac the father

01:55:11

Abraham and eliezer the servant the helper the servant

01:55:18

Okay, you get the typology? Yes, I do. Okay Three day journey to get to the hill.

01:55:26

Jesus was in the grave three days Isaac carried wood on his back up the hill

01:55:31

Jesus carried wood on his back up the hill And when isaac said to the father to abraham, where is the sacrifice abraham said god will provide for himself the lamb

01:55:42

Jesus is the lamb Abraham, excuse me. Isaac was offered on wood. Jesus was offered on wood so They caught a ram in a thicket of thorns.

01:55:53

Jesus bore kind of thorns on his brow He said to isaac your seed will be multiplied we are the multiplied seed of of jesus

01:56:02

It says in in genesis 22 19. It says abraham went down the son didn't

01:56:09

It didn't say that isaac did not come down. It just says and abraham went down. It doesn't mention isaac coming down from the hill

01:56:17

Jesus did not come down from the cross isaac represented The the jesus it's a typology

01:56:23

Yeah, no, jesus didn't come down. You see the typology is good Now they go down to the bottom of the hill and the servant gets a bride for the son genesis 24 1 through um 4 the bride was a beautiful virgin genesis 24 16 were the virgin of god and getting all this way to this the servant

01:56:46

Offered 10 gifts to the bride The servant offered 10 camels 10 gifts of the bride now

01:56:57

If you go through romans 12 1 corinthians 12, etc And you look up the listing of cares of the gifts

01:57:04

You'll find two categories two types charismatic gifts And non -charismatic gifts non -charismatic gifts or helps administrations things like that Okay charismatic gifts word of knowledge word of wisdom interpretation of tongues prophecy, etc

01:57:22

Guess how many charismatic gifts are listed in first corinthians 12 4 through 31 where where the charismatic gifts are listed?

01:57:29

Guess how many are listed? If I guess 10 That's a good guess And that's what

01:57:34

I guessed But it's not correct. There's only nine And that really puzzled me

01:57:41

I couldn't figure out wait a minute Why would if the typology is so good why there are only nine lifts it

01:57:50

It took me a while to figure it out and I finally did romans 6 23 The free gift of god is eternal life

01:58:00

That's the greatest gift to the bride That's 10 charismatic gifts Now people say to me the charismatic gifts have ceased

01:58:12

I chuckle one because That's not what the bible teaches They have to read the end of the text.

01:58:19

Well, the perfect is the completion of the canon Oh, and when the canon's closed, that's when we know perfectly

01:58:25

That's where we're known as we're fully known you never find that scripture or that phraseology used in reference to a book but you do find it in reference to salvation knowledge

01:58:36

And face -to -face is not used of of anything other than relationship Is that how we have it when we see see the bible the bible's completed now?

01:58:43

We have a relationship with god no a relationship through christ and the return of christ when the perfect comes when the completion of all things occurs

01:58:51

That's jesus return just like it says in first corinthians 1 7 It makes solid sense

01:58:57

That my position is the right one and if it's not then john knox george wishart John, fleming would not be welcome in most secure most reformed churches today, would they?

01:59:10

I guess so. I mean I would I guess going off what your logic is. Yeah Okay All right

01:59:20

Um, yeah, thank you. Thanks for letting me know about your position your position and I guess i'll definitely be looking in those first corinthians

01:59:27

Verses and go from there. I really appreciate that. Sure. No problem Yeah All right.

01:59:33

Yes. Have a good night Okay Hey, here's one. I'm gonna read one more thing. This is from uh, george wishart uh from 1513 to 1546

01:59:43

Uh, and it's in that book scott's worthies, um when he had finally captured was captured at Mermiston, he was taken to saint andrews and burned at the stake blah blah blah blah

01:59:54

Just he died for the faith The and this was written the plague being now considerably abated.

02:00:01

He determined to pay a visit to the town of montrose He received a letter directing him

02:00:08

From his intimate friend the liard of kenny are Acquainting him that he had taken a sudden sickness and requested him to come to him with all diligence

02:00:17

Upon this he immediately set out for his journey Attended by some honest friends in montrose who out of affection would accompany him part of the way

02:00:27

They had not traveled above a quarter of a mile when all of a sudden he stopped saying to the company

02:00:34

I am forbidden by god to go this journey Will some of you be pleased to ride to yonder place and see what you find for I apprehend.

02:00:44

There's a plot against my life Whereupon he returned to the town and they also went forward to the place found about 60 horsemen ready to intercept him

02:00:53

Etc. Etc How do you guys this charismatic gifts don't work do they

02:00:59

Yet in our own reformed history we find the contrary anyway

02:01:07

Yeah, I never read that before that was really good Huh? It does and I understand, you know the hardcore

02:01:14

Cessationist reformed person will say well, that's not the bible and that's not our standard and I don't think that's what you're saying But we're not just you're not discarding evidence that supports your particular understanding of those texts,

02:01:27

I mean You know if the charismatic gifts were for today

02:01:33

How would you know it if you don't allow you know the evidence

02:01:39

For that to support what the text is teaching You know, I was talking to some reformed guys

02:01:46

And I think I forgot what denomination been so long And I said do you guys realize that you wouldn't even allow john knox to preach in your pulpit they go that's right

02:01:57

From what they were reading about the charismatic stuff Yeah I said oh, so you're better than john knox

02:02:03

There's actually stories of these guys these predatory divines They would pray one guy who prayed for eight hours a day

02:02:12

And one guy there's reports of um Of him saying i'm going to go down and spend time with the lord in the garden

02:02:20

And they would go down in the garden and witnesses would say there was a figure walking with him in the garden Now what we could do with that?

02:02:27

Okay, but Yeah Yeah, it's a touchy subject for me.

02:02:33

It's a little bit. It cost me a great deal I haven't told a story too often about what happened and how much it cost me, but it did

02:02:40

And it's one of those very very dramatic times of my life extremely so and years of consequence

02:02:49

In effect because of my decision To be truthful to what I believe the word of god said just the same as the cessationists do the same thing

02:02:57

But it cost me it didn't cost them It cost me And uh, so it's still

02:03:05

I you know, I guess I should admit a little bit of a sore spot still with me But I don't hold any grudges against anybody but I just Do not believe the cessationist position is can be biblically defended

02:03:18

Interesting stuff I'll carry binge do I oh we gotta get going here We do have morgan though morgan has been waiting for a bit with a question.

02:03:28

Okay, go ahead morgan Yeah, i'm so sorry. I don't want to take up too much of your time. Are you able to hear me? Yes Yeah, thank you guys so much.

02:03:36

Um for what you're doing. This is truly in divine order Um, I didn't know about this until like one minute before I logged on so i'm just gonna ask these questions.

02:03:46

Um, Really quickly and then i'll probably be back every thursday for as long as I possibly can so just thank you guys so much

02:03:53

Um, yeah, and normally eli's not the other guy. Normally we have a really ugly guy I'm here.

02:04:01

I'm here. I'm the ugly guy Hey, he'll be back on next week, but anyway, it doesn't matter if you're ugly as long as you can help me defend the faith

02:04:09

So it doesn't matter. There we go. Amen But um just more recently Um, i've just found myself surrounded by a lot of non -believers who are willing to engage in conversations with me and so i've been looking more into you know studying

02:04:26

Apologetics and defending the faith and I have my toes in it in some regard but Good questions are getting deeper and deeper.

02:04:33

And so, um, yeah, this is that's what I said right on time so just one of the questions that I was recently asked was about the lost books of the bible and of course, you know, it always just kind of comes back to how can we trust the word of god and um the person and i'm gonna

02:04:50

Misquote it was just basically saying if there were if there were books that were left out of it.

02:04:56

How can we You know say for sure that this is what that the books that we have is what god intended to be in the bible since man got together and decided what went into it, so I'm, just looking for a way to kind of come against that even just start my own study around that sure

02:05:15

There are no lost books of the bible Okay So for people to say the law what about the lost books of the bible presupposes that god wasn't capable

02:05:26

Of ensuring that what he wanted to be scripture and included in the bible was there And mere people were able to thwart his divine intention

02:05:34

That's a presupposition that they're having And if they're going to say there's a lot of lost books in the bible say show them to me

02:05:39

Now if you go to my karm website and you look up lost books of the bible got articles dealing with this kind of stuff

02:05:46

I just read it Yeah, we're good Now so let me so there's ways of looking at things but when they say that I say no, there's no lost books

02:05:55

But are you saying god made a mistake? You're saying god's going? No, it's supposed to be in there. Oh, don't oh, man

02:06:02

Dang it. Oh boy Dang, is that what you're saying about god? That's what I tell him is that what you're doing the infinite god of the universe can have his inspired word

02:06:11

Collected and people are going to get is that what you're saying? You don't have you don't apparently don't understand what the christian god is

02:06:16

Let's talk about who the christian god is the one who ordains the location of every atom in every universe in all the universe

02:06:23

Simultaneously in all time in all places. This is the god you're talking about and he couldn't keep his word together

02:06:30

No, it doesn't work like that Now here's something else for you um

02:06:35

This is fun. Okay now when jesus Uh at the in john 21 and he um

02:06:44

Told the disciples to cast his net on the other side of the boat he did that because at the end of the um

02:06:54

The ministry right and they caught 153 fish Right Why 153?

02:07:02

Please tell me That's a good response Well the word fish

02:07:11

Fish is the word ichthus, right now. Didn't jesus say i'll make you fishers of men Yes. Yes, he did.

02:07:17

Okay It just so happens in the four gospels. I'll talk about the four gospels here a little bit the four gospels

02:07:25

You take away the five thousand that were fed the four thousand that were fed in the four separate gospels

02:07:31

Guess how many people received a blessing from jesus in the four gospels? How many individuals?

02:07:38

153 yes Wow gifts they still She knew the number

02:07:47

So 153 individuals now, wait a minute How did that happen with those four gospels?

02:07:53

Okay, how'd that happen the four gospels? Now i'm going to show you something about the share the screen to do this

02:08:01

Okay Gotta get to it Okay, here we go now what

02:08:09

I do is I don't want to see my ugly face. Well, you already see my ugly face

02:08:15

All right Come on slimeball you can do it computer. Oh, man.

02:08:22

Come on. So now what I uh, yeah Okay, I want to share my screen i'm going to do this hold on I just lost my window there we go.

02:08:34

All right Now share the screen I'm going to share that And come on Can you guys see it?

02:08:46

Yes. All right now This is what's really interesting The arrangement of the men around the tabernacle of the wilderness.

02:08:54

Okay Get this got it. Okay so To the west 108 100 men 151 000 to the south 157 000 to the north and 186 000

02:09:09

There's more written on the tabernacle than any other Topic in the entire bible it goes on for chapter after chapter after chapter now also just so you know

02:09:18

It says in john 1 14 and the word became flesh and tabernacled among us

02:09:25

Okay now If we do a proportional arrangement That's what we get

02:09:34

You see the cross Yes That's really interesting A proportional arrangement of the men numbered gives you a cross with a tabernacle in the middle

02:09:47

The tabernacle represents christ on that cross Four groups of people there were there were uh

02:09:58

The eastern tabernacle there were there was judah issachar and zebulun that's there are 12 tribes of israel arranged around the

02:10:06

Uh Arranged around the tabernacle four groups

02:10:13

There were three groups to the west three groups to the south three groups to the north three groups to the east

02:10:18

That's 12 tribes. All right And they had four banners lion a man an ox and an eagle

02:10:26

It's their flags that represented them Okay Lion man ox eagle.

02:10:32

I learned them just by saying a lion ox eagle and a man That's how I learned to say that at order

02:10:38

Ezekiel 1 10 that's where the form of their face is in ezekiel the vision of the four -faced creature a man a lion an ox and an eagle interesting in revelation 4 7 the first creature was like a lion.

02:10:54

The second creature was like a calf or like an ox like a man and an eagle Okay So so guess what the four gospels were known as in code lion ox eagle and man

02:11:11

I think god knows how to keep his words secure Not only that but each gospel portrays jesus in a separate in a different way

02:11:20

And that one image that matt just showed uh where where it says jesus was

02:11:30

In matthew he presents himself as a king right and Right go back to that one.

02:11:37

John has the eagle. He has a man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah as a man So Yeah, matthew

02:11:44

Let me show you some more. Uh, anyway Okay Here's the list out of those out of the four gospels of the individuals that received a blessing totaling 153

02:11:55

Now yeah here let me back up, okay Check this out.

02:12:01

I'm gonna have fun. Okay might as well do this Backing up i'm backing up I I get into the prophecies won't do that.

02:12:13

It'll take too long. Let me get into some other stuff. Um, Who's got the noise going got the noise?

02:12:20

You got making noises and stuff now while you're looking for that I just want to suggest to morgan an awesome book on the topic of the canon and how we know

02:12:28

No, we got the right books and things like that. You want to check out the book the canon revisited by michael kruger.

02:12:36

He is The man on this topic. That's one of the best books on the topic of the canon and how it was developed

02:12:43

The canon revisited by michael kruger. I'm reading it, too Yeah, it's a little heady i'm extracting information out of it to bring it down for people

02:12:53

On on rts and on youtube kind of summarizing each point, but definitely helpful book.

02:12:58

Thank you so much so check this out look at this and Genesis 1 1

02:13:05

Uh in the beginning god created the heavens on the earth, that's the hebrew Notice this

02:13:12

There's seven words The number of the letters is 28, which is four times seven

02:13:17

The first three words are 14, which is two times seven The last four words are 14.

02:13:23

The fourth and fifth words are seven the sixth and seventh word are seven letters Uh, the nouns god heaven and earth equals 14 letters total and the words remaining are 14 letters

02:13:32

Not a big deal, but it's kind of interesting. Yeah Okay Yeah, it's too much complicated watch this

02:13:43

So here's the genealogy of of matthew of jesus in matthew 1 through 17 In greek, okay, there it is in english.

02:13:51

All right, not a big deal Well Each greek letter is also a number

02:14:00

Yeah, so when you it's called a gematria So for example the word for yesu christos the two words.

02:14:06

Jesus christ has a gematria of 888 The gematria for the word fish ichthus is 1224

02:14:13

Anyway The number of words in that genealogy is 72. All of these are divisible by seven.

02:14:19

Okay Well, except for the first one. It's 72 which is 8 times 9, which is really interesting

02:14:24

It's 2 times 2 times 2 times 3 times 3. Not a big deal. But that's how many words are there the number of nouns

02:14:32

Divisible the total number of nouns divisible by 7 56 The greek word the occurs 56 times the different forms of the word the is 7.

02:14:40

I can explain what that is Uh, like we have boy boys And we have it's called declension girl girls

02:14:48

Singular plural the nouns in greek change forms a lot of different ways and there's seven forms.

02:14:55

Okay The number of greek words before the deportation was 49 Of those 49 words the number of the words that begin with a vowel is 28

02:15:03

That begin with a consonant is 21 The number of letters in that 49 words is 266

02:15:08

Of those 266 letters number of vowels is 140 The number of consonants is 126

02:15:15

The number of words that occur more than once is 35 number of words that occur once is 14 number of nouns is 42

02:15:23

Number of words which are not nouns is 7 number of nouns that are proper names is 35 Number of male names 28 number of times these male names occurs 56

02:15:33

And then the gematria of the word babylon is 7 That's extremely difficult to do

02:15:40

There we go, it's very difficult to do mathematically I tried to do something like this.

02:15:45

I got stuck after the third level Seriously I did and i'm not dumb

02:15:51

And uh, that's debatable though. Hey, hey, I heard that Okay Are you getting all this morgan?

02:15:58

Are you memorizing all of it? This will be on the test I'm gonna release this on the website so you guys can go to it.

02:16:10

But here's some more Uh, the account of jesus birth, right? This is in matthew 1 18 through 25 the number of words 161 number of letters 896.

02:16:22

So all these are divisible by 7 Of the 161 words that occur 105 forms are there of those 105 forms the number of verbs uh is 35 the gematria value of the 161 words is divisible by 7 the gematria value of all the letters divisible by 7

02:16:39

Uh, the six read words here are found nowhere else in matthew In other words in a genealogy six words appear only there and their value is divisible by seven

02:16:49

The total letters of the six words is divisible by seven as are the number of proper names number the letters of these seven names

02:16:57

Emmanuel occurs nowhere else in the new testament. The gematria is 644 Speaking of joseph the number of words the angel uses is 77

02:17:05

Uh, the gematria of those 77 words is divisible by seven now You know, there's more

02:17:10

I can go through more things like this Okay I think uh, i'll do one more for fun

02:17:18

Just for fun from the issuing of the this is uh, daniel 9 24 to 27 70 weeks

02:17:25

From the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild jerusalem until messiah the prince. There'll be seven weeks and 62 weeks

02:17:32

Okay, that's where the messiah will be cut off So the 69 weeks of they're of years.

02:17:38

That's what it means And um the week of years is called the shebuim that's how they talked seven weeks where they meant years

02:17:46

It's like we say yeah beat him till he's black and blue. It's a phrase. It's a it's an idiom. Okay Until the messiah is cut off They used a 360 day cycle

02:17:57

Not a 365. That's another topic, which is really interesting. That's where we get 360

02:18:03

Degrees in a circle. Okay, but nevertheless Um, whoops When you take the number of years that those 69 weeks are

02:18:15

All you do is take the years times the days And you get 172 880 days

02:18:24

And it's you'll notice um It's from the decree

02:18:36

Uh the decree where's I have supposed to have it listed there at 25 From the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild jerusalem until messiah the prince

02:18:45

There'll be seven weeks and 62 weeks Saying how many years? The decree they know for a fact march 14th

02:18:55

Dang it 445 bc March 14th, that's interesting. Yes, march 14th 445.

02:19:02

Why is that your birthday? No, because that's today Oh my goodness, I didn't even think about that Oh Man, that is cosmic.

02:19:12

I didn't write No, I didn't get that. That's right Okay, wow Okay, that's funny

02:19:19

Divine order. That's right. God has his way of doing things So they know archaeologically exactly the day guess what happens when you add 173 880 days to march 14th 445 bc

02:19:32

You get the day that jesus came into jerusalem on the donkey Wow god, who knows it's all just made up Or or morgan

02:19:47

There's a simple way Now this is actually a great detail. I mean it just shows that the depths of the issue but Just from a simple if you haven't if you didn't remember all of that When someone makes a statement like, you know, what about the lost books of the bible?

02:20:01

I mean just take a look at that statement the lost books of the bible the phrase itself presupposes that these

02:20:06

Part of the bible when that's the very thing that they're A straight so don't don't feel like you're pushed in the corner as though you need to demonstrate that they're in the bible

02:20:15

They're the ones making the claim and most people who use that are just parroting somebody else And so it'd be interesting to put them on the run and have them demonstrate that these quote lost books

02:20:26

Were supposed to be in the bible to begin with And you'll find historically there's no foundation for that whatsoever

02:20:31

And most people who ask won't even know where to begin once you turn the tables on them yeah, and that's good and that was gonna be one of the the last questions that I asked and Um, I think you you do make a a good point.

02:20:45

I did I you know J. Warner Wallace says the best type of we have an investigatable faith and what

02:20:51

I appreciate about that is that we don't have to Tell people well because I said so, you know, you can send people on a mission to search for themselves.

02:20:59

It's just needing wanting to know how much you need to know to kind of engage people so that you're not just dismissing them because Well, it's the bible, you know um

02:21:08

But you know really kind of being able to give people um legitimate answers, but Um, I just discovered i'm going to print gum gomantria.

02:21:18

You said gomantria gomantria, um last week, um, so um, i'd love to hear a resource where maybe

02:21:26

I could explore that a little bit more because I am very interested in that but Just look up gomantria on the web on google

02:21:32

You'll find a lot of stuff bible gomantria and you'll find also and uh, the guy who really uh, what's his name?

02:21:40

panin panin In 1800s. He was a brilliant mathematician. He's the guy who

02:21:47

Out of these things and patterns and it goes exceedingly deep Uh the patterns some of my things much.

02:21:54

I don't get it. I'm not a good mathematician like he was But some of them are like, oh my goodness and out of the things out of matthew.

02:22:00

I showed you He discovered those got you. I will definitely look into that the one

02:22:07

Yeah, please well morgan just also Just to be a little more practical too because that all again all that stuff is awesome

02:22:14

But it will very rarely you'll have the opportunity to kind of go through all of this with people

02:22:19

A really good book to get to help you practice navigating conversations, especially here things like what about the lost books of the bible?

02:22:26

You know these basic questions that skeptics will ask is the book tactics by greg coco It's a very easy to read book, but teaches you how to Navigate through a conversation ask questions, you know shift the burden of proof not putting all the weight on yourself

02:22:42

You know for answering all the questions and things like that tactics. It is a Immensely helpful book that teaches you how to talk and argue in a skillful way um while not being disingenuous but teaching you how to think and really

02:22:56

Making the other person kind of think for themselves and not just uh, you're there answering all their questions but definitely this whole stuff with the

02:23:03

You know prophecy and all these things within scripture. They all do have their place. Um, but just within a practical setting

02:23:09

Uh, it's not all the time. You'll have the opportunity to go through all of these things That's good. And could you just uh, would you mind spelling his last name?

02:23:17

Sure, coco is k -o -u K -l you could buy that on kindle I think for like either 5 .99

02:23:23

or 9 .99 Awesome book if you're doing like a you know A book study with a group of people like a small group or something or just your own personal study great resource

02:23:32

Great, and so I and this would be my last question and I thank you guys so much again

02:23:37

I I pray god willing i'll be on next thursday as well Um, and you're already kind of speaking to this and maybe this book tactics will also do that But I was gonna ask how do you defend the faith to people who don't honor the bible as a true source?

02:23:52

So, you know some people say you you reference in the bible, but I don't View that as a valid reference point is there a way to kind of engage people in those conversations when you

02:24:02

Can't automatically start with the bible as a point of reference if that if that makes sense uh

02:24:09

I think just because someone says you can't start with the bible doesn't mean that you can't start with the bible

02:24:18

That's like that's like coming to a gunfight and they say wait a minute you can't use a gun who says uh

02:24:23

The bible provides for you the foundation for your worldview It's the lens through which you reason and understand the world

02:24:31

So basically what they're saying is don't come at me with your ultimate commitment and so You could say the same thing then don't come at me with yours

02:24:39

We're going to be at an impasse here because it they're speaking as though they themselves do not have a bible

02:24:44

Namely their own ultimate authority the reality everyone has ultimate authorities. You just should be honest about yours

02:24:51

It's the word of god and you need to expose what their ultimate authority is and tear it to shreds because the bible says that we

02:24:57

Tear down arguments so we do not move the bible aside We stand firm on it.

02:25:03

Know it well and challenge the assumptions and and You know worldview perspective of that particular unbeliever make him defend his worldview and you can engage in apologetics without throwing away

02:25:14

Really the thing we're supposed to be standing on which is the truth of god's word your foundation also morgan I am in the other outside google hangouts chat

02:25:22

I gave you a link to another book called always ready by greg bonson. Yes, great book right there

02:25:29

And uh, it's really good because what they'll do What the atheists will always do is they'll try to pull you away from From from your side into some kind of neutrality or that they'll try to get you on their side

02:25:42

And then the thing that bonson always taught was Neutrality is a myth

02:25:48

Okay, and so you have to you know, you have to be Stubborn basically and tell them i'm not going to go into the neutral.

02:25:56

Okay. I'm not going to give up my my uh, my scriptures you know, I I The thing is is that you have to you have to uh prove to me uh

02:26:07

Or you have to show to me that your your logic is valid First before you even decide to even you know

02:26:16

Question my my faith um, so, you know, there's a lot of things to go to but anyways, uh, the link is on the outside chat of the um,

02:26:25

Of the the google hangouts there Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you all so much.

02:26:30

I really appreciate it Good and one more last thing. We're just going to throw a little bit of of uh sprinkling on the topping here, um

02:26:38

God says in isaiah 55 11 that his word will not come back empty without accomplishing what he desires

02:26:44

So even though they'll say I don't want to hear the word of god's speak It's still don't be pushy about it, but still use the word of god.

02:26:50

Well, the bible says blah blah blah blah Let the word of god accomplish its power Never give it up And say

02:26:57

I won't use the bible to defend god He has spoken and that's what i'll do with with atheists.

02:27:02

I'll say look god has revealed himself in two ways Well three ways through nature Through the word of god the bible and through the person of jesus christ and um

02:27:13

I presuppose these work with those and I use I quote the scriptures anyway, because they have power

02:27:19

All right Thank you so much. I really appreciate it Okay I'm about ready to start the after show guys.

02:27:27

So i'm i'm gonna go in and get out and uh, give you the link matt I want i'll either email it to you or it'll be on my side chat, whatever

02:27:35

I'm gonna check on my wife though. I'm gonna see what's going on and make sure she's roger that but yeah You just let you guys know and morgan.

02:27:41

You can always join up here on my my chat also or my hangout. Um, but there's um, the council is what we have after after for like an hour and so you're more welcome to join in and along with um

02:27:56

Debra you like it's yeah, elias cat all the other people there. I'm gonna go ahead and set up the uh, the um,

02:28:02

The hangout there. So thanks Okay, i'll email it to you too

02:28:09

So folks, um, we're gonna close it out and eli. Thanks for coming in and doing this again Love to sit back listen to you talk man.

02:28:15

You're doing great Well, thank you. It was a pleasure I like it. You look better than me, too. I'm i'm old you're just stuff like that, but Um, anyway, good stuff man.

02:28:25

Good stuff. I think eli should be on more often and eli discord go to discord .com

02:28:33

Sign up Trust me, you're gonna want to get into the in there because there's some really good conversations we can have

02:28:39

Okay. Okay. It's a good place All right Check it out. All right. Well, take care. I'm gonna sign off now