What is the Church of Christ?

It's that it's fascinating to me how easily someone in one religion can find the fallacies and biases in another religion

I think that what's fascinating your raise your razor -sharp on your your your criticism of Islam here

Yeah, and but what I find fascinating Jeff is that you recognize that with other religions

But you don't do it with your own because I that may be the case And and there's that confirmation bias coming up again

Welcome to apologetics live We're here to answer your questions and challenges about God and the

Bible meet your hosts from striving for eternity ministries Andrew Rappaport, dr. Anthony Sylvester and pastor

Justin Peirce We are live apologetics live here on Thursday nights to answer your

Challenging questions about God and the Bible you think we can't answer any question you have about God in the

Bible Well take the challenge. Come on in go to apologetics live .com. Just remember one thing.

I don't know is a perfectly good Answer so I can answer any question, but I may say

I don't know and when you say you didn't answer it Yes, I did. I don't know is an answer. Just remember that Something always good to remember when you are talking with folks because some people don't realize that so we're this is a

Striving fraternity is who hosts this if you want to get more information about us go to striving fraternity dot o -r -g

If that's way too long for you to type, let me shorten it for you. Just go to s fe dot Bible That'll take you to the same site

But we we're doing this each week. Let me bring in my co -host. Mr. Pastor Justin Pierce.

How are you, sir? Hello, how we doing? Better than everybody. I've missed everybody.

It's been like yeah, it's been a while. It's been a while So let's we got a packed show.

I'm sure And so before we do let's get to the news. Let's get some early news articles.

So here's a news article 25 agencies tracking employees with religious exemption requests

That's right folks. You you wondered why the government was or government was forcing employees to Put a vaccine mandate

In order well is very simple. They wanted to know who's going to apply for a religious exemption There's now a government agency where these big tech companies and others basically all the fortune 500 companies

Are now giving to the government Those names of those who chose to do a religious exemption and that way they're now being tracked so congratulations

You are on the holocaust watch list All right. So let's let's deal with something.

I I got to bring this up. This this one's Very interesting. I don't know if you saw this in the news 102 millionaires

Including, uh, I guess abigail disney have signed another letter asking

Governments around the world to raise their taxes And so it says this is their letter that they want millionaires to sign

By the way, just so folks realize uh, depending where you live in the world in the country Uh in america, you know in you live like in new jersey.

The average house is about five to six hundred thousand dollars so if you've been working for like 30 40 years

And you've been putting money away in a 401k and you get a house. That's you know, they say is worth five six hundred

You're a millionaire. Okay, and you go wait i'm like middle class barely getting by yet. Not not really

Uh, so so their their letter is in tax. We trust This is very interesting, it's two millionaires and billionaires

Uh, they they they're they're saying that's unfair this this this tax system we have is unfair because the

Us rich people don't pay a lot Now now, okay Here here's the thing justin.

I I I it boggles my mind Well the the signers of this you you know what they're able to actually do

If they think that it's unfair the amount of taxes they pay Well, they can take their stuff offshore so that they actually don't have to pay government

They want the world to do it. You know what they could do if they can actually give more They could give more exactly they can write a bigger check.

What an amazing idea Don't sign something that says we want you to force us To pay more if you really believe it just pay more now

I do find it interesting because they they make a thing trust in politicians in society and in one another

Is not it is not built in tiny side rooms only accessible by the very richest

And most powerful it's not built by billionaire space travelers who make a fortune out of a pandemic

But pay almost nothing in taxes and provide poor wages for their employees Really interesting.

Um, wow I think the guy that they they're speaking about he pays 54 in his taxes.

He pays paid more taxes than any individual in u .s

history Um, so he's he pays next to nothing according to them and yet the fact is he's paid, you know

For folks that don't know who they're referring to elon musk. He he has paid more taxes than any person in american history business one individual

Uh actually has has paid more in taxes than some countries are gross national

Uh products so It's very interesting. I thought very funny.

I think it's very hypocritical to uh, to say, you know If you want to read it, it's kind of funny in tax.

We trust .org That's the where you can go read this and see the what they want. Uh, everyone to sign on to um

So, you know, what's amazing about that about that article that you're talking about here is

If if they lived the socialist, uh lifestyle that they want to profess that everybody else should live

They wouldn't be millionaires and billionaires Correct what they are what they're doing is actually trying to get everyone on board the program

Of socialism of you know critical theory all these things. They're trying to get everybody to see it as normalized so that The middle class goes away because what you have in a socialist society

Is you have the upper class elites who own everything? on behalf of all the servants correct and and all of those would be us who would be

Who would be uh brought under the thumb? of the dictatorship of the the rich elite and and the thing is that is you know, whenever we see

You know socialism marxism take over an area Although they always preach taking, you know that they do this for the poor and the and the underprivileged

Uh, those that are the rich are the ones that always benefit from it. They're the ones that always end up Uh taking over and so yeah, they want everyone

This is why they're not paying the extra taxes they're asking for the government to force it because when the government forces it and they have

You know, like abigail disney who has way more than just a million dollars She's not looking at like, you know, the five hundred thousand dollar house in the five hundred thousand four one k uh, but she's she's looking at way beyond that and and she's promoting and pushing it why because when they get it guess what

Uh, the middle class goes away and she's one of the few in charge, which always happens

I don't know if anybody's looked in the grocery stores lately But I actually took pictures of uh our grocery store down the road

And you know, I hear all these people talking about well, we're not having that big of a problems Um, our our meat section was almost decimated almost gone.

There was no chicken the milk was gone I mean, they're begging and scrimping and trying to get the products from as many different stores as they can to bulk up their area

Um, so that whenever somebody comes and sees it, it doesn't look as as if it's um, as if it's empty so in other words you have um instead of instead of One row of the half and half let's just give an example

One row of half and half has got like maybe five or ten Jugs of half and half they they slide it all the way across the front

And so it looks like the whole thing's full, but it's not it's actually you're actually, uh having less product not saying

Are you? Oh, yeah Well, because I don't want everybody in a panic yet yet.

All right. Well, let's Let's let's do this because we're gonna have you know, and I i'm gonna i'm gonna tell folks right up front

Okay, I know you guys can't see who's backstage. Oh, yeah Uh, I I have a feeling that uh, you know, pastor justin.

We we may be getting a little distracted here Discussion i'm i'm just thinking because there's there's a whole chat

There's a side chat going on. Nobody knows about it's like all over the place This is it will be interesting but but since we're ready to rumble

Since since we're talking politics Let me bring i'm gonna bring someone in that. Uh, you know, he's he's got a podcast on comedy and politics things like this uh jamie, welcome to apologex live

Nope he's on mute. Yeah, I got you. I did not expect to be thrown in that fast

You in right away, I do not have a podcast on politics Politics that I know it's humor.

Yeah humor talk show. Um explicit. I know this is this one's not explicit

You gotta be clean on this one. Yes, I will If you want to kick me I do have to warn when

I shared the pot so so folks so that folks know Uh, it's the regular listeners.

No, I I went on to the wisdom app after after the show one time uh and and on that time jamie came in just and wisdom is an app where uh, you just you can you talk about sun and anyone can

Come in and just be a guest kind of like a like if you think about talk shows Uh radio talk shows, but in in this case you have no one screening.

Um Not producer Yeah, but for me, I mean those are the regular listeners for me.

I I view it as like, you know Open -air evangelism. I I get up and just say what I want to say until someone kind of You know heckles me and then we get into a discussion and then they go away and someone else comes in It's really what it is and and you you came in you didn't know anything about me we started by talking some mixed martial arts and different things and we started talking about uh religious matters and and uh, basically

Why christ came and died and and then you were gracious enough to invite me on to your podcast

Which i'm sorry about the ratings. I'm, I I know they went Right into the dirt after that.

I'm, sorry My most listened to episode so far. Well, I did I was downloading it over and over and Uh, but I did

I did warn, uh, you know folks, you know that that you know kind of Follow me on on social media and all

I I did warn them at least that So this is an interesting thing. I warned people That hey, listen, this

I was on this the show you you might enjoy listening to it We you know, we got to talk about the gospel and uh, but be be aware, you know

This gentleman is not a christian and you know, there's some language you may not like So, of course someone did listen.

I I know someone listened because I I got a response you know with someone very upset with me for putting that on my you know on my uh

You know like on it was a facebook on that one You know that I shouldn't put that out on facebook because they have bad language in it.

I'm like, uh Did you read the disclaimer? I I think

I said that so if you chose to listen after like either one of two things you didn't read what I said

Fault on you. You read what I said and went ahead and listened And now you're complaining when you already had a disclaimer there fault on you.

Sorry the fault's not on me So but I did want to you know You you asked if you could come on and I I was like sure if I could get a you know

A third opportunity to talk with you about christ. I would love to do that But uh, I I do what we do here is open up to any any challenges any discussion so I wanted to open the floor to you to And any questions you'd have

I mean we had two two I think really good conversations um, I love the uh conversations we had and actually before I say so Now that i'm like seeing you talk to me like on a stream

And this is a compliment what i'm going to say to you. You look like a more christian version of mel gibson

Okay Well, yeah, that was a compliment. You said you want to take him off the show now. Is that what you said?

It's a good thing. It's a good thing that you have not seen me with my beard because when I didn't have my beard

Everyone I have gray in the same area as mel gibson has gray Well, I was trying to look like mel gibson though Well, what you got to realize though is andrew does have a face for radio.

I do I do I said that before I said that about me before he came on. I was like, that's why I can't show myself on camera

Yeah, well, you're showing like an an icon of yourself and it's and the icon still looks better than me.

So It's younger. Yeah. Yeah, I don't right off the bat. Like I i'm usually when

I talk it's more in the heat of the moment kind of thing um So, I mean I heard the topic that you guys were talking about before with most it was more so economic stuff and all that kind of stuff and just the one thing

I always I I really find it funny I've lived in this country. Uh, what's it called my whole life?

I don't have a passport so i've literally been in this country my whole life and I always find it funny when I hear people say one of the

It's one of the most wrong things i've ever heard in my life when people say oh, you know Small businesses are the backbone of this country.

It's like if they were the backbone of this country They wouldn't have all been shut down during the pandemic and then all these giant corporations were the ones actually making money

They don't need see that's the thing small business owners have to realize you just own a house that sells lemonade

That's all you do like you're not special and they can wage you off like a big, you know

Something please, you know, so so let's let's think of the context of that What what does it actually mean to say that that small business is a backbone of the country?

It's not the idea that small businesses run the country It's really when you look at the way like what the founder is thinking.

It's that small businesses prevent What they've seen time and time again where you have the few rich that when they're the rich they can control everything

So having a lot of small business and having us rely on small businesses Are the design of it is to prevent what we saw happen in the pandemic, right?

And and the reason it's now so out of kilter Is because of the fact that during a pandemic all the small businesses were shut down and and then the big businesses were the only ones allowed to to basically work

And and provide things and and now small businesses are going under we'll we'll start seeing the effect of that probably in a few years when the big businesses now control everything and the government just Those in the government power only have to work with a few of those in the money power the business power

And once those start they work together as they're doing Then monopolies won't matter anymore because the government's not going to shut down the hand that feeds them but two things to that one

I one thing I I think and this man, this is what I think. I have no idea if this is true or not

This is what i've seen from my perspective. I think big businesses Put this lie into small businesses owners heads like yeah

We are the backbone of the country just to give them like this false sense of pride And then while like the real businesses that run this country are just counting their money like they actually think they're the backbone

That's hilarious And then secondly again i've grown up here my whole entire life since I was a kid

Corporations ran this guy like oh my god walmart's the evil corporation. Oh my god starbucks. What are we going to do? It's coming up.

It's like now it's amazon now. It's tesla It's like there's always huge corporations that people complain about since like I was a baby

Since I was a kid teenager and now that i'm an adult. I I just it's the same Same thing wrapped in a different wrapping paper.

Well, it is a little bit different because one thing we haven't had before is Big companies that can now censor what you're allowed to to read or or even think

I mean not that they can stop you from thinking but You know you you if you have a certain view they want to silence it, right?

And so we do have that but so let me ask you let me ask you a question jamie So in our in our past two discussions, you know, we we talked a lot about You know, basically things of of that you and I both break god's law, right?

We've we've talked about that And we talked about why christ came to earth Yeah, I want i'm curious

You know any any thoughts on any of that from from the the different discussions we've had um in terms of what can you go a little more in terms of You know, has it has it caused you to think more about you know your current state standing before god

No, no, I mean, I love the conversation that we had and it was a really fun conversation I like talking to you because I don't think

For even someone who like has their belief system that you have, you know I like anyone who's a nice person

I don't care what belief system it is and you and you're a nice person at least when I talk to you So hold on.

Hold on. Hold on. Yeah, go ahead. You've never met him. Okay If you guys figure we get that corrected right away

Our conversations you've come off nice. I don't know if you have severed heads in like your freezer or something, man You've been in my freezer

Dad humor man I didn't realize that You you you didn't you know, you were talking human heads or deer heads.

I sorry. I forgot Actually, I don't know if you could see my new bow that's right right there in the there's

You turned out to be mel gibson. You're exact i'm talking to mel gibson So, uh

You know, I mean I I really the one thing I'd you know, I can't I can't help you know every time we we get together and talk is is to try to challenge you with this though because you know

You know as we've said before marie Two people die every second right 160 000 a day um and You know considering that 10 out of 10 die.

I you know, i'm concerned for where you'd spend eternity and i'm gonna be right because I care about you so You know,

I I I know that you said you haven't given much thought of that But I I really want you to to think through the previous conversations we've had

And and and really consider You know what would happen a second after you die? Okay.

So yeah, no, that's a okay. That's a more detailed thing to think about. Um With that I remember you saying on my podcast and then you saying in the beginning of this episode that you know

There's yes. No, and also I don't know like an answer could be I don't know so I personally don't know what what's going to happen when

I die, you know I just know that dying is something that most likely most humans if not all are going to do at one point

I don't i'm not saying there is or isn't an afterlife I'm, just saying I don't know mainly because I never at least

I don't know i've never died before Now I have a question for you. Do you because I think You answered this on the podcast.

Do you know there's an afterlife or do you not know if there's an afterlife? I I absolutely know that there's an afterlife

And is there a reason why or multiple reasons well and and i'll tell you how I know, you know, there's an afterlife how's that Yeah, dude.

I'm, i'm open to a hundred percent so What we what we know is that we can look at creation

And know that god exists Okay Let me just read you what god himself says about this um

You know we He says for the wrath of god is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men

Who suppress the truth and unrighteousness? Because that which is known about god is evident within them

For god made it evident to them For such as since the creation of the world his invisible attributes

His eternal power his divine nature have been clearly seen being understood

Through what has been made? So that they are without excuse so every one of us actually according to god

Can look at creation? And and we could know something about his attributes. We could know something about who he is

We could know that this that you look at the vastness of this universe Or go down to the smallest element of a cell

And and we still haven't you know, we we used to think an atom was the smallest Part of a that we could get of a cell and then we found subatomic and you know quartz and things like this

We've we keep we're now in the subatomic level finding things And it's still amazing. We still can't figure out how these things function so we can look at all of creation

And know that god exists And his but what did that's what does he say there?

His wrath is revealed Okay from heaven Against all ungodliness god gave you and I a conscience and that's why when when we talked last time

I asked you You know, I walked you through the the ten commandments, right? Because that's That's what our conscience tells us.

It tells us we know we're guilty when we do something wrong Well, that's god's wrath being revealed to us

And if we were just chemical reactions, we wouldn't have that reaction Right, it would just it'd be nothing

But the fact that we have a conscience We can look and know from creation that god exists, but then we can look at our conscience and know we're accountable to that god

Does that help you in in seeing the answer? So you're talking about um

Finding items smaller than atoms. Basically, you know at one point we thought atoms were the small

I mean not me personally. I'm not a scientist and I don't have a stethoscope Um, but smarter people than me thought

You know thought atoms were the smallest thing and then they found quartz and all this kind of stuff But now you're also saying

We know that god has to exist because we have conscience But can't science keep digging and find answers to the point where they find that There is a scientific reason on why we have a conscious

Yeah, and and this is this is an argument called the science of the gaps Okay, this is where when we can't explain something we shove science in The reason science can't do that is for this simple reason

Science is the study of the natural world and so the only thing science can do is is

Study and research the natural world the material world It cannot handle the immaterial world

So anything that's immaterial science can't answer science doesn't have an answer for that And so when we go to things that people are

You know, let me give a a maybe a controversial um one here

When we go to things people will say well I was born biologically male but I You know,

I identify as female right? We have people saying that nowadays, right? They say that and yet they also say that many of the same people say that there is no god

There is no immaterial part of us. We're just a bag of chemical reactions now

Here's the dilemma If you're biologically male You would be male you would you would think male you would act male you would be male because that's your biology

When they say that they can identify against their own biology, they're revealing there's an immaterial part of them

That's not biological. That's not material And there's no way to explain that in science because science so trying to use science

To explain the immaterial world would be like me asking you How how many feet eight gallons of waterway

You can't do it. It's it's a category. I'm i'm I I didn't do well in math in school Well, the point being is you can't you can't measure weight by feet

You you measure it by pounds Or, you know depending at least here in america we do it by pounds

Kilos. Yeah Category error is what ends up happening. And so trying to use science

Which is the study of the material world to understand the immaterial You can't do it.

I have a question to the beginning and i'm sorry if i'm cutting, uh, the other host off. Uh, No, we don't we don't like him talking anyway

I don't talk whatever whenever andrew's just rambling on and and just saying things incoherently

I'm, actually i'm on side chat talking to everybody. So, oh sure sure um in the beginning of that you're saying, um

Something about the gap theory or something like that where when there's a gap science kind of just shoves themselves in there, correct?

But when science is shoving themself in there when they're not aren't you in essence doing the same thing when you shove god into those?

Gaps, aren't aren't you shoving your belief system when people who are into science are just shoving their belief system into the gap?

Yeah, that's a good question. And and I would I would say no for this reason um the ability to even

To reason to do science, right? There's certain things we need we we need an ability to reason We need things like truth laws of logic

Okay Knowledge, those are all immaterial things So if you deny the immaterial world you can't do any of those things so the only reasonable rational starting point is that There must be an immaterial creator

Right because because let's think about it. The universe had a beginning. We you know, science has has shown that Okay, einstein proved this out that there was a beginning to the the time -space continuum

Now there's there's three possibilities to how it began one The universe always existed

Except we were able to prove that the universe didn't always exist. It had a beginning and it's going to have an ending

Right is is you know that it now we could say that it would be recreated but you know stars explode

You know, they are implode and and die out uh, so we know that when we look at The science, okay the the first law of thermodynamics shows that the

Matter had a beginning so the universe couldn't have always existed that eliminates that Okay, the second one the universe created itself well

That breaks the second law of logic Which is the law of non -contradiction because the universe would have to first exist to be able to create itself

But it can't create itself if it doesn't exist and you get into a problematic thinking Well, then that leaves us a third option someone or something created the universe

And that is where the only logically sound argument that we can make looking at the science

Can take us and so our natural starting point if we're going to make sense of anything is to start with god

And so you it's not that because I believe it i'm i'm shoving a belief in where I don't understand something

I'm saying I don't understand something because god's greater than my ability to understand So I don't expect to understand everything

But here's the gotcha. I'm saying that without god, we can't make a sense of anything

You understand that I understand what you're saying. Um, so and this is a side question really so do you think um,

People when they have ideas and thoughts feelings emotions and everything because that is not a

I guess a physical thing Those kind of thoughts and feelings and everything must also show and prove that there is a god

Yeah, and there's so there is the way that god has designed us There is a a relationship between the material and immaterial as well.

So I would say to answer your question simply. Yes but also I I want to explain a little more give a little bit more to that because the follow -up question that many people ask

Is we can we can? Take chemicals to affect our emotions right, we can you could take things that will give you a a

More euphoric feeling and you feel happy you can give peel things that make them feel a little bit chilled out

You can you know when you have people that have mood altering drugs, right? It affects their mood now granted whether religious or science we don't understand that relationship between the physical and In immaterial to know how the chemicals in our body can actually affect the immaterial part of us and and No one has the answer for that, right?

Uh, and so now the way that those that deny the immaterial altogether

They say well see that's proof that there's no immaterial part of us And and yet there are immaterial things the way

I usually explain to jeremy is this I I this is the example I always give uh, I I like to use the laws of logic.

So i'll refer to a law of logic. I mentioned earlier the second law of Logic is the law of non -contradiction.

So what that's properly defined is you can't have a And not a in the same way at the same time

In other words, you can't have twenty dollars in your wallet and not have twenty dollars in your wallet At the same time and in the same way.

In other words, we had this argument Right, we had this discussion. Yeah, see

I have this discussion all the time. So I told you you could I said you were wrong I was like if I had two 20s and I took a 20 out

It's like yes now I have a 20 in my wallet and I don't have a 20 But you still have a 20 in your wallet and I also don't have a 20 in my wallet because I tell you

You don't have one of the 20s, but exactly Do you have a 20 right and I don't have a 20

I don't have I don't have 20 yeah, we'll see and that's the difference You don't have the so you don't have that same 20

So we're saying is either there is one $20 bill in your wallet or not And we talked about this,

I guess it probably said it but I could have a monopoly money 20 That's a different kind so we get to the point of the beginning of the universe and and everybody

Will agree that there was a time because most people when they say when you bring up the laws of logic people say well

That's just a just you know, that's the product of the human brain. That's the chemicals in our brain that create logic

And so I go, okay, let's go before there was human being before there were humans We all agree. There was a time before humans some think billions of years some think

You know five days, but whatever it is before there were humans Could the universe have existed and not existed in the same way in the same time?

And the answer is no it would it would break the law of Of logic called the law of non -contradiction

Therefore the laws of logic were not products of human thinking humans discovered them

But didn't create them And and they're immaterial things And so I rely on that you could also look at you know, one that we talked about is morality, right?

when you know, we look at morality and say You know what makes something right and wrong

And and people will say well it's you know, it's uh You know what the society says?

Well, then you can't say what hitler did was wrong and that was actually the arguments that they made at geneva convention You know was oh, you know, we did what we thought was right in our culture and and people said no it's it's not based on There's a universal absolute standard of right and wrong

Where does it come from god the nature of god? So like why is lying wrong we talked about lying when you and I talked why is lying wrong because god's not a liar

Why is stealing wrong because god's not a thief Why is adultery wrong because god's not an adulterer

So we base it on the nature of god and so it makes something right or wrong is based on who god is

That that and that also makes it why it's an absolute universal standard You know a universal standard that there has to be a god because Of just our feelings and emotions on things our morals, right?

Well, not just that but think about this um, I have a thought thought, uh A little experiment for you for a moment.

Um, how old are you if you don't mind my asking? I won't tell my exact age, but i'm in my late 20s.

You're in your late 20s. Are you sure about that? I I well, that's a good question. I don't know if I was adopted.

He's really 19 now. See now So my so my question is so my question here is

Yeah, um, are you sure you're not five minutes old? Uh, I don't know Everything that's been told to me could be a lie.

Just like what you guys have been telling me this past episode It all could be false so so So you have no you have no reason for having a rational rational grasp on what is called reality then

If you could if you could be If you could be five minutes old or five, you know five years old

Then then what is your reason for any rational grasp on reality and so my point being um

If it's possible what you know is absolutely wrong then then it stands to reason that you don't know, right?

Yeah, no, I don't know. I don't you don't know. No, but here's the problem You do you absolutely do know how old you are

Right. Well now you just said I might be five minutes old. So now i'm confused. No, no. No i'm saying Are you are you tricking me, man?

Which one is it? Are you? Here's what you have to understand though because god exists

There is an absolute truth And even that standard of morality must also be a standard of logic and reason and truth

It's not just morality. It's everything that you know, you know, because there is a god

It's not just just oh, I know, you know, right and wrong. Okay. It's not just that It's all reality must demand the existence of god, otherwise you can't know

Well, I just told you I don't know You said you did because when I first asked you how old you were you said i'm going to tell you

That i'm close to this old, you know, exactly how old you are not anymore Not anymore now.

I don't know Are you sure you don't know? Boy you just said five minutes between five minutes and 20 something years old.

There's a blotting gap I could be are you sure about that and you said 19, I think are you sure about that?

I don't I I don't know. I don't have an are you even are you even having a conversation right now?

I i'm having a conversation with you. Oh, are you sure? Can I I don't know now? I don't know.

Oh now you do know but you don't want to admit that you know I thought I was but now i'm confused. I gotta ask a question now and you're gonna know where i'm going with this

But before jerry doesn't do babies exist Um, are they five minutes old?

No, do babies exist um You know what? I think they do because when

I go to a restaurant I purposely don't eat veal and I tell my girl I don't want to eat veal because I don't want to eat babies

I think you're right babies must exist that that one. I think I do. I'll have to play the clip

This is from a previous show. Uh Thank you. Thank you for not falling into the the trap that this person did when matt slick was asking him similar

It's just the question He said are we having this conversation made me think of this conversation matt slick had with someone on the show

You said statements either true or false. I gave you a statement and you said it doesn't apply Not too bad, man

It's not only true that statements would be either true or false So is it true that i'm talking to you?

Is it true? That is true statement i'm talking to you. Is that true? Yes Okay, is it true that babies exist, um

Well, I mean how Babies exist. Is that true?

Uh, I mean if you want to go down the you know, if you want to get very strict about it I would be skeptical about okay, we're done talking

No, we're not gonna play the next one. Oh, come on no babies Can I see the difference between our conversation that one

That one seems like one that is being serious where I think honestly, we're just having a nice because yeah at the end of the day um

You know, I a lot of things I really I don't know if i'll ever know the truth

There's so much. I mean you you were talking about before with all the people trying to deny people services or their thoughts or their

Speech and they're they're they're saying they're this but they're biologically that and everything. There's so much misinformation thrown from the past uh present and more so and in the future possibly more so that With all that misinformation, it's really hard to know an answer on anything

For me I i'm not a bright person So for me to go

I know science is the way or for me to go. I know there is a god I personally don't feel comfortable saying that because I just don't think i'm the guy to say that well

Can I give you a thought just a thought real quick if I could? um

You don't live that way and I want to explain it to you like this. Sure When you go down to your car and you start it up, you don't expect it to explode but it's a million explosions in an hour

You don't expect to drive down the road and die you expect the laws of logic That when you start the car

Cough, you don't just float up in the air you expect You you even expect that this conversation

Would be logically coherent in other words When i'm talking to you the words that i'm saying you expect to understand them because in your life you follow absolute truth

You you can't live your life on this the supposition of I don't know no

You have to follow a uniformity You have to follow a law and and and it's it's ingrained in your life

It's in every fiber of your being and it is It is one of those things that kind of points you towards the fact that when scripture says

I am the truth when when scripture says I am You know i'm the creator and those things like that The only way that you can get around it is to say well,

I just don't know But you still don't live that way Gotcha. Yeah. No that that I like a lot what you're saying there because you know at the end of the day

We're following some sort of structure, you know, i'm i'm understanding you guys because I speak english you speak english

We we understand what the words mean because we were taught what those words mean now to be fair though I could be following a structure and you guys could be following a structure

But if I came in the show and both you were speaking spanish I wouldn't have known I would have no idea what was going on Well, if I was speaking spanish,

I would have no idea what's going on. I wouldn't either Have you listened to jordan peterson? He actually had a conversation.

Um, just a few weeks ago He was actually having a conversation with a bunch of people that you know denied god they were atheists and whatnot

And in this conversation he said he said wait just a minute He said you guys are atheists and the problem that you're having is

You are believing in a god But you've defined this god as a god that you don't believe in hence the name atheist

And and they were trying to argue with him and In his discussion.

He said it doesn't matter what you Are trying to argue out of that always puts you back in front of god

Yeah Well, let me and let me just say so, uh Drew says this.

Um, you you can disbelieve or be unsure of the law of gravity all day long Until you jump off a building.

Oh good argument. Um, and and you know, I know earlier, uh, michael said this let me find this

Okay here Um, I like this. I don't know if you notice. Uh, Justin, but you can

I found this out recently you can hit a star when a comment goes by michael asked whether we Uh actually engage with the comments online we do we just don't always see it

But there's a way if you see the little star icon you click that and it goes into the starred column

Yeah, see that and so I did that with michael. So it was sitting there for a while But when we talked earlier, it says we know there is an afterlife because god

Had come down and told us himself It is embedded in our souls, which is what

I raised in romans 1 When we do something good or bad in our inner being bears witness

Uh of something that uh to come afterwards and and that's kind of what we were saying earlier when we were talking about the fact that um

You know You know god exists because he put that within you um, you have

Not only the knowledge from creation. You have the knowledge of your conscience But but you know one of the points that michael brought up is the other way we know

Is because god himself came to earth Died on a cross and said I will raise myself from the dead

In three days so that you will know I am god and guess what he did in three days rose from the dead

And so the fact that you know, he could do that was to vindicate that he actually is god

Um, oh that's too bad we uh, we seem to hey john i'm gonna give you a hey, could you reach out to norm?

He dropped out. We're just we're just about to go to him. I hope you didn't. Oh, no, he's coming back good Whoo for a second there.

I thought we lost norman. I was gonna be really bummed um, but uh so so what we end up having is the fact that We we can look at these things and and know that god exists

But the fact of okay, how do we know what he says? Well one surefire way is god himself gave predictions

About himself and about the future that there's no other way to to have that happen just by chance

Okay, and and that's a thing that ends up You know being the the way of of being able to identify this um and so Yep, and so, uh, you started that for later.

So yeah good that way you don't bring it up while i'm you guys are teaching Me things. This is cool. Hey, i'm learning I didn't want to interrupt.

I accidentally clicked the wrong thing. Yeah. Well, I I like to play with the new features. So, um You know

So what you end up seeing though is god himself came to earth dies on a cross and says he's going to raise himself to prove

That he is god and he has the ability to forgive sins And and that's that right there becomes the issue that you know, it's like how do we know when we know because god said it

So I do that. So I don't want to like I don't want this to come off as mean -spirited at all

Like I I don't um, so we were talking about like there's been misinformation thrown especially nowadays, right?

At least it seems like that because we're living in today um, and i'm i'm sure like you guys

You're older than me. It looks like um Uh, and uh You're right.

You might be three minutes. He's he's not on camera. So we can't really tell yeah, I might be 19.

Um, But all right real quick. I'm sure you guys seen a lot of maybe news media or anything

Just say something that's a blatant lie, correct? Yes, every time joe biden speaks so I wasn't around when um

You know god supposedly came down and died for our sins and everything I don't how am

I supposed to know that like how do I know that wasn't misinformation? And again, I don't want it to come off as mean -spirited, but I don't know that's a question.

That's a fair question. Yeah um The thing is no one was around right? So so technically the only scientific evidence we have for the creation of the universe comes from genesis chapter one

Because not only was it created And observed it was written down. That's the scientific method Uh, we we have no other way of knowing any of this

We there's no way for us to know about god unless he reveals it but He gave us a way to be able to test it

Prophecy would be one You know, let me let me uh, let me just read something to you I want

I want you to think about this and tell me Who i'm going to read a passage from the bible and I want you to tell me who this is referring to Okay, and as soon as you think, you know, just just call it out.

Okay, uh, surely our griefs Uh, surely our griefs He himself bore

And our sorrows he carried and yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken smitten of god and afflicted

But he was pierced through For our transgressions and he was crushed for our iniquities

The chastening for our well, uh, our well -being fell upon him and he was scourged and he and we are healed

All of us like sheep go go astray each of us turn our own way But the lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him

He was oppressed and he was afflicted Yet he did not open his mouth like a lamb that went to the slaughter and like a sheep

That is silent before his shears So he did not open his mouth but oppression and judgment he was

Sorry by oppression and judgment. He was taken away and for Uh and as for his generation who considered

That he was cut off of the land of the living for the transgressions of my people to whom the stroke was due

His grave was assigned with the wicked and yet Was with a rich man in his death

He was because he had done no violence nor was there any deceit in his mouth

But the lord was pleased to crush him and put him to grief If it would render himself as a guilt offering

He he will see his offspring. He will prolong his days and the good pleasure of the lord will prosper at his hands

Now who do you think oh, well, let me keep going because there's two more verses i might as well As a result of the anguish of his soul

He will see and see it and be satisfied and his knowledge and The and his knowledge the righteous one my servant will will justly will justify the many

And he will bear their iniquities. Therefore. I will allot him a portion with the great and he will divide the booty of uh with the strong Because he poured out himself to death

And was numbered with the transgressions yet He himself bore the sins of many and interceded for transgressors.

Now, who do you think that might be speaking of patrick hewing? I don't know who patrick hewing is but you don't you grew up.

I thought you were from jersey at one point You don't know who patrick hewing is probably someone in movies or No You know how bad

I am with pop culture He was one of the best new york knicks basketball players of all time

And he went through so many sacrifices trials and tribulations the fans at one point turned on him because they never won the championship

But did he die? And be taken from this world for the sins of others. He left his blood sweat and tears on that court, man

Well, and i'm trying to be serious with you though. Has has he has that happened to him? Has he died?

No, he's still alive at least I think he has any any idea who that might have been speaking of Uh, probably i'm gonna guess jesus.

Okay, let me give you let me give you another another passage and I want to see Who who you think? uh

So, let me see where i'm going to start. Uh, how do you not know patrick hewing? Yeah, you'll learn.

Uh Okay, uh, i'm gonna so for uh, but for uh, but far from me for trouble is near For there is none to help many bulls have surrounded me strong bulls of bastion have

Encircled me they open wide their mouth at me As a raving and roaring lion.

I am poured out like water My all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax.

It is melted within me My strength is dried up like a potsher my tongue cleaves to my jaws and and you lay

In me in dust of of death for the dogs have surrounded me a band of evildoers encompass me

They pierce my hands and my feet I can count my bones They look and stare at me.

They divide my garments among them for my clothing. They cast lots Now, who do you think that might be speaking of any idea?

I I wish I could give you a name besides outside of jesus. I'm not gonna really know much so I don't know

And you're right on both of them both Are literally of jesus, you know what the interesting thing is go ahead

The first one was written by isaiah 750 years before christ And the second one was written by david in psalm 22 a thousand years before christ

And yet no matter how many times I do that anyone who knows a little bit of what christ

Would happen at the crucifixion They all recognize that that's jesus and i've had i've even had people that grew up jewish

And ask them and challenge them, but how do you know that's jesus? And one of the things is in synagogues, they don't

Read isaiah 53, which is what I read and so they didn't they weren't familiar with it. And so They are they're like because it's so clearly speaking of christ

And I say that's right and yet it was written Thousand a thousand years to 750 years before him.

So you say well, how do we know? Well the way god one of the ways god reveals it right is

In providing prophecy that there's no ways that could be by chance Yeah, but again, that was all with that though It's kind of like and again,

I I don't want this to come off Mean -spirited, but it's kind of like a bill burr joke in other words Like well, have you ever seen star wars?

You know a group of people created that like this was something they could this could have been an elaborate thing That was created thousands of years ago for us today to believe now

Yeah It it could if you if you want to argue that way, but here's the problem uh, and and and this is i'll just tell you this is the thing is that when you look at all of the prophecies and and I would challenge you to to go try and do this to to go and do this is

You you look at the prophecies and divide them in ones that could be self -fulfilling and those that would be by chance

Okay And when you look at you know, something that's self -fulfilling, okay someone if there's a prophecy um

You know, you can make that you know, someone can make that fit But when you look at ones that are by chance one that people have no control over in their life

And then start looking at all the prophecies of christ just the ones of christ And look at those that are coincidence

And you get beyond statistical impossibility, which is 10 to the 48th power. In other words, it is mathematically impossible for these things

That happened to to be by chance Okay and and so you could look at that but but but here's the reality and and we're gonna

You know, I know we got to get going because we have another guest on but here's here's thing jamie The thing I challenge you with is this

You already know god exists Right, and that's what we read in in romans chapter one You know god exists just as I know it and everyone else knows it but what many of us do is we suppress that truth in unrighteousness because And and you and I don't know each other.

Well, we've spoken a couple times few times But what I know is that every one of us

We suppress the truth and unrighteousness mostly because we either love, you know, it's from our pride

Or we love our sin There's either some sin in our life that we so love that we don't want to get right with god because it means we have to give up our sin or Our pride is such that we we want to be in control.

We want to dictate the rules We want to be able to be the one to say this is how things work And we want if there's a god we want him to accept us on our terms

That's how many people are And so, you know something for you to consider

You know and ask yourself, you know, are you suppressing the truth and unrighteousness? And if so, why? Gotcha, I I will say um, one of the coolest stories i've uh ever

Heard was uh from a south park episode, but it was about the book of job I I i'm guessing both of you are familiar with the book of job.

At least you didn't pronounce a job like I used to Well, luckily they said but I think that that's a it's a really unique story just and I don't know if like they were just You know cliff noting it in the episode of south park

But it just seems like it was a story about someone who had an amazing life And the devil went to god saying well, he wouldn't worship you if he had a worse life and god basically

Just threw the hammer at him, but he still worshiped god in the end. I thought that was a cool, uh story

Yeah But but why why here's the thing? Why could job go through all that because job knew where he was going to spend eternity?

And because he knew where he'd spend eternity this 70 80 100 year life that we have

Uh is is small in comparison to eternity Eternity is a really long time to be wrong.

And that's why you should consider the things I hope that's not the reason though Honestly, I really hope because the reason

I hope that's not the reason is if someone doesn't commit a murder, right? I hope they

I hope they decided not to commit the murder because of the punishment I hope they just decided not to commit the murder because they know it was the right thing to do

Where with joe, I hope he decided to stay a faithful person because you know

Like kind of what you guys are saying He knows deep down me because of god that it's the right thing to do not Why hey if I keep if I keep riding this out and believe in god i'll have eternity to spend like heavy, you know

I hope that's not the reason well, one thing you have to think about too though is is in that conversation on joe is is

He didn't just continue to believe in god because god You know because you know god did all these things and it was like well, it was just the last chance effort

I want to spend eternity. No, no, no, it wasn't that it was because god is good and righteous and we are not

None of us are you see here's the point god is good by definition and and and you know, you you bring up things like, you know,

Truth and morality and right and wrong and somebody murdering or killing anything else you you set up a standard

Now here's what i'm going to challenge you with Sure, yes instead of just Setting up a standard and saying but i'm not sure i'm not sure i'm not sure as a 19 year old young man

Make it make it your priority to know Why don't you go read?

And study because i'm gonna tell you I'm gonna tell you the the worst thing in the world that I did as a young man

Was waste my life I could have spent so much time Knowing god better and knowing myself better because I used to think you know what i'm a good guy

I can do what I want. I can live it up. I can party it up. I can do that later And and as a as an older man,

I look back and I go Man, there's there's so much better. I could have done. I could have been a better husband a better father a better example

And I just look back to say I always knew god existed But I always wanted the pleasures of the world more

That's why I would always justify myself. You know what? I'm a good person, you know I mean I would sit in a bar and I would say to the other drunks

I would sit in this bar and I would say with the other drunks i'd say you know what? I don't need to go to church to be a christian.

I can be one right here. Yeah, we can worship god getting drunk And blankety blankety blankety blank and hey, look at this hot girl and hey this that and the other

What i'm telling you is you know god exists just like I do the scripture tells us that Right the scripture defines for us that we know god exists and we suppress that truth because we love our unrighteousness

You need you don't you don't have a promise of tomorrow You don't have a promise that there's tomorrow

But what you do have a promise is that god is good and because he's good He will judge you in righteousness

And you've been told today to repent and it's not because we're mad at you You know, we like you.

We love you, but god is you guys are awesome, man I like talking to you. I think now real quick.

What do you say though like Because like with god and humans humans aren't right. We aren't righteous people

Well, no, we're not not naturally How can I how can I trust anything a human says to me if they're not righteous?

Well, but we're not asking you to trust what a human says. We're asking you to trust what god says But you guys are human telling me that so I don't know

That's why I told you to read Yeah, but until god actually talks to me one -on -one i'm just going based off what humans either are telling me or written down Then he gave you his word

I but you're a human telling me that and you just said you're not righteous. How can I trust you now?

Are you righteous? You just said i'm am I human? No, no

So you went back to the standard of righteousness, you know, see i'm gonna tell you i'm gonna tell you something about righteousness

No, no, no, hold on. Hold on. Okay in christ. I am righteous the bible says in second corinthians 5 21 that christ died

God caused christ to die for my sin So that in jesus christ, I could be called the righteousness of god

I care about truth. I care about the standard truth. I care about righteousness I care about holiness.

I care about the things that are true You know, I don't I don't want to live my world in in supposition and in opinion

I want to live my world in the in the facts of the creation that god has given us

Oh now are humans righteous though or not right let me see now christ No, go ahead.

Let me just say something real quick. You you brought up earlier jobe, right the book of jobe. I like that story Yeah, i'd encourage you to read that book because you know something you said is something very similar to what jobe said

When jobe was going through all these trials, he said I want to see god. I want god I want to talk to god.

I have things i'm gonna I he there's things god has to answer me And you start reading in jobe chapter 38 and when god does start speaking

Job's mouth was shut Because jobe was he is in no place to question god And so when you ask, how do we know?

Well, I gave you that I'm, not telling you to listen us you should not Just because i'm saying it or justin saying it that that doesn't carry any weight

The only thing that carries weight is is god's word. And so i'm saying get a bible and read that Read read through that and I mean like I said, you could read the book of jobe read through the you know, the prophecies read through the gospel of john

And see what jesus said about himself and what he actually did you know and the and be be aware of the fact that the things that we have in there are

Historically recorded elsewhere as well and in other historians uh that didn't believe in christ, so When you when you look at that You gotta say well, can you trust a human?

I'm not telling you to trust what i'm saying I'm telling you to trust what god is saying You know, so that should be my encouragement to you.

Yeah fair enough again, though You guys did say a couple minutes ago humans aren't righteous

But now i'm i'm listening to humans tell me other things right now you guys so it's like how can

I believe an unrighteous person? Okay, but you didn't listen asking you to believe in us We're not asking you to believe in what we're saying.

We're asking you to read what god said and believe what he is saying Yeah, but you could be lying to me right now

You're not right. You said god can't be and that's why we're telling you to read what he's saying No, but right now you're a human tell me.

I don't know. I don't know. I'm okay. So question for you. I'm in a corner Okay, I got a question for you.

Is every single thing that you've ever said a lie Uh Be be serious

Is everything that you've ever said a lie That's a good question. So are you capable of telling the truth?

Uh, which one do you want me to answer first the lie one or the truth one? Well, they're both they're both one in the same Well, I mean if i'm not a righteous person because i'm human

I I don't know and maybe everything I have said is a lie One of the things that's real quick. I think the confusion here is is this

When we use the word righteous this is in being right in a right standing before god Yeah, okay.

It doesn't mean that everything we ever do is always going to be wrong It doesn't mean that everything we do is going to be a lie, which is where?

Justin's going The the point is that we can't stand before god you and I as we we talked about you and I broke god's law

You and I rightly are guilty before god when we stand before god is and he judges us

We both would be guilty. We both would deserve eternity in a lake of fire, but jesus way of escape

God god came to earth and died in our place All right, so so I you know,

I know we gotta we gotta go because we got someone else that's been sure sure For an hour and and I think we're gonna have an even longer conversation

And I try not to go over the the two hours, but anthony's not here to do anthony time for regulars

You know what that means? Uh, but but jerry I I enjoy it, you know, you can come on any any you know

Continue the conversation. I really enjoy the conversations with you Yeah, you guys are awesome.

Justin. Thanks. Andrew. Thanks for having me on man. It's always fun talking to you, dude All right. Well, thank you

Put him backstage and before before we get to uh our next Next person backstage.

We now would probably be a good time. Justin For you to put your head down on your table and take a little nap

And if you're going to do that, justin, I think what you need is to go get yourself a my pillow Uh and and get yourself a nice comfortable american -made pillow from mypillow .com

Or or if you want justin call 1 -800 -873 -0176 800 -873 -0176

And when you do that justin to get a great discount On a great product use the promo code sfe stands for striving for eternity and in doing so Not only will you get a great product to put your head on the table and take a nap

Which I know you want to do you will also be supporting this show So my pillow sponsors us and we appreciate uh all that they do so to help us out, so Uh mypillow .com

use promo code sfe All right. So let me uh, okay. Here we go. We gotta put him on since he's showing his pillow.

There's There's pastor josiah showing his my pillow that That's a lot better.

He wore it out Yeah Yeah, that's a lot better than the one time that josiah when I mentioned the mattress toppers and he ripped his bed apart

So that he could show the mattress topper So so that's that's much better All right,

I want to bring in uh norm and uh norm welcome to apologetics live sir, thank you um now

I I got familiar with you through a Do we want to say a mutual friend? I don't know probably both of us don't want to admit that he may be a friend if that's the case

Uh, he is backstage and I know that there's been lots of lots of comments going back and forth uh, but a regular here john wilkinson

Um atomic glue, uh as you know him, uh, you guys had an exchange you had him on on your show

I did And then you had a show that that where you responded to him and he invited you on here Um, you know one thing

I am curious, uh, because you mentioned at the end of the show he was on His audio was way off than yours

Not not on mine, I don't think yeah It was real low. Yeah, you could not hear john at all.

Oh, you know the the volume volume. Yeah Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I I didn't have any control over that.

So I I don't know. Yeah, I don't well I don't know how you record but maybe offline we could we could talk and I could help you with that how you do that but uh you know because I can

I know at least here and like even on stream yard I can I can control I can Bring your mic volume down or up or there's yeah,

I I uh, I was using uh restream Uh, usually when I have somebody on with me,

I use restream and um, I don't know real uh restream all that well I usually use obs and so okay, you know that that was a a technical thing

It's not that I was trying to muffle john. Yeah. No, I just I I figured i'd point that out and so I I listened to and and You know

Two shows that was what like four hours or more Uh, I I usually do between two and three hours and usually it's just me

Yeah, well it that both that I saw was not just you but there were there were a lot of things So so let's you know, uh,

I I ended up I got a like a page and a half here of notes that I took I got a ton of questions

That if I could i'd like to to go through and ask you now for folks who don't know who you are Let me let you introduce yourself

Uh, if they don't know, you know, we asked the question at the at the the title of the show.

What is church of christ? um, and you are if you know, you are a a I have a pastor of a church of christ, correct?

Uh, I am a minister. Yes for 25 years Okay, that's not bad because you're only 26, right?

Yeah, you know thereabouts The other guy was 19. Yeah. Yeah, right. I'm no dummy

So so at least for folks who don't know who aren't familiar with you Can you just like kind of introduce yourself and Sure, i'm norm fields.

You can find me on just about every social media everywhere at preacher norm

Just at preacher norm, uh, I put my name in but I guess you guys don't display the handle names.

There we go There we go. Okay, so so you can find me about anywhere with with that handle and uh,

I do a live podcast on mondays um, I I was doing it on youtube and facebook, but uh because of Tech tyranny as I as I refer to it, uh, i've i've pulled off of of those and do it on rumble now and Uh, then share it from rumble to my website and and other places.

So, um, I i've uh take viewer, uh questions and comments live on the air people can ask whatever they want to ask and and I do my very best to give them a bible answer the

Uh Name of my program is bible q a and the tagline is where you ask the questions

And the bible gives the answers because when it comes right down to it what I think what you think what john thinks

It's completely irrelevant. All that matters is what this says Yeah, and and by the way, just for folks john said in the private chat that his mic was muffled on his end.

So So we'll we'll blame him that he didn't want to be heard. He was Yeah On this show you'll realize norm we blame everything on john anyway

So good policy our regulars know that uh, we we refer to him as the chicken man because usually when he's in the summer months he's outside with his chickens and When he's just he'll put the chickens on his you'll see them in camera

We just suddenly pop him in when he's unexpected. So Let me just say that you know,

I really really enjoyed my discussion with john He asked me a difficult question right out of the gate and I have to answer honestly according to the scriptures

Yeah, what was that? his opening comment, uh concerning a a cordial discussion, which again

I enjoyed very much he Unlike many discussions i've had with people. He he's very even keeled.

Uh, he he kept his cool and you know, I know some of the things I say can be Can can can be you know, uh inflammatory and that's not

Why I say them, uh, you know People people put jesus on a cross because he said things that challenged their religious beliefs.

Oh, no, no You know that jesus only said nice things. Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, right

So, you know, I I try to preach like jesus. So his first question was what do you remember? uh, well as I was saying in his uh,

Opening remarks in the program which I appreciated the spirit of those remarks very much and I think it's

Very much what is needed in religious discussion? Uh that that we could have a cordial conversation and uh, uh, then in that he he made the comment that you know

When we part ways we can look each other in the eye and we can call each other Uh a brother we can refer to each other as brother in christ and and uh,

I I said that I agreed with the spirit of his comment and I appreciated it very very much but I could not call him a brother in christ because Uh, I I have no reason to believe that he is

And so and that that actually is good. That was the first question I wanted to ask you is, you know, would you consider me to be a brother in christ?

Um You know, I I didn't really hear anything you were saying and i'm sorry i've never watched your program

I I really it seems like i've heard the name, uh rapaport before so I don't know you may be some really famous guy

In uh in the denominational world, I I don't know but have you ever been to the local post office?

You saw signs wanted dead or alive, right? Yeah. Well, I I knew I had heard your name somewhere

So, uh, I would say without further conversation uh that the odds are

Sadly that you're not okay and and just out of curiosity What would you what would you base it on?

uh that the way is straight and the and and difficult and the the gate narrow and few there be that find it and I think few is

A lot fewer than people realize Yeah, and and and for folks who are listening.

I mean the the reason I I was interested um after listening to you was I I do like the you're very

You know, you have your beliefs. You're very clear about it and and you don't try to You know squirm around them and I think that's good, you know,

I find it kind of frustrating when you talk to someone who they want you to You know say they're they're in a good state, but they're going to say like, you know,

I talked to You know someone maybe a muslim or something and they want me to say that they're going to heaven

But they can you know or that if I say they're not they're going to say well you you're exclusive and i'll be like But aren't you?

Right. So so I I think that that's a good thing to be very clear about um you know, so let me let me ask because I think this will be the

Key a key element after listening to the discussion which and and on your show you were supposed to be talking about.

Um, uh perseverance of the saints and I think at the end of the show you admitted that you and john never got there

So you guys will have to get back I would very much like to have that discussion.

But you know, I Like I said john asked me a difficult and it is a difficult question. It's not it's not a it's not really a question

I enjoy responding to because it typically Ends the discussion right there, but i'm not going to lie to people and make them think that there's something they're not

Yeah, well I see and for me just so you know norm I I find it refreshing because the fact that you might say well you think that You know in john's case you're saying he you couldn't confirm as a brother in christ.

You're saying you're not sure with me Because of calvinistic doctrine. Yeah, and and so you know made that clear up front that you know

He identifies himself as a calvinist and my point is that a calvinist is not a christian they're they're not the same thing

Yeah um, so so the the thing that I appreciate is that you know, there's no there's no

You know You know if I end up thinking you're not saved you think i'm not saved right like you and john

It's very clear. There's a dividing line, right? so let me let me get to the heart of of really the the main issue and I think we'll probably get into lots of discussion from this is um

The question I like to ask people is how do I get to be right with christ?

uh the way that I typically address that in one -on -one studies and and uh, uh

Helping to guide people in the scriptures like philip did the eunuch in acts chapter eight, uh, you know he needed a man to guide him and you know,

I I try to be that man and so Uh, I I usually ask people Uh, whether or not they believe they're a saved person.

I know for for a fact Uh, if I were to ask both of you and I can I can uh,

I can see your name on the screen Andrew rapaport. I'm, sorry. I I don't recall the other gentleman's name

Pastor justin justin pierce justin pierce. Um And and you know, please forgive me for not using

Religious titles, I don't expect you to use any titles for me and and I choose not to uh, so um uh if If I were to ask both of you are are you saved individuals?

Are you saved in christ? Um, i'm sure both of you would tell me yes uh and and then my next step would be uh, can can you please

And I usually have people write it down because you know, uh, uh people like to use prolipsis for things that they know now to Project that back on what they did before and and you know things don't work that way.

And so Um, you know, I I usually ask people to write it down and then I put that away and we go through our study of the bible

And and and when we see in scripture That this is what scripture says

You have to do to be a disciple of christ to be a follower of christ a christian Okay, this is what scripture says you have to do to to do that uh

Inevitably almost every time I know for a fact that you know Um, well,

I shouldn't say that I I suspect that that you know when I go through Showing because i'm going to show scripture for everything

I say Uh when I go through that i'm, you know fairly certain that both of you are going to say

That's what we did But if I had you write it down right now

When we got done and you tried to say well, that's what I did and you compared it with what you wrote down It's not going to be what you wrote down and and so um, you know, just the the the question, you know out of the gate about uh, um

I I guess what what the philippian jailer asked, uh, uh paul and silas.

What must I do to be saved? I'd answer it the same way that uh paul did in acts chapter 16

And I think it starts around verse 30, right Uh, I know

I picked up my bible and shook it at the camera, but i'm but i'm using a program You're using lagos bible software, which you know, i'll just since you you you hinted to that i'll just That's a perfect time for me to give a clue for our other sponsor here lagos bible software if you get some permission from that Yes, they they are a sponsor.

And so if you go to just shorten the website that they have for us just go to bit .ly bit .ly slash sfe logos

And if you're buying a brand new if you want you're picking up a new package You get five books from striving for eternity um that you can choose from and what the discounts that they offer so Now I I we won't we won't get into Arguing, you know whose library is larger in lagos because I already know the answer without knowing your library

Just saying for the record I would suspect you're probably right

I only say that because i've been told from you know One of the owners of the company that I have the largest library outside of the people that work there.

So Pretty much all I you know, I don't use commentaries much I pretty much just use the language tools and logos has amazing language tools and that's my favorite way to study.

I want to know What does the text actually say, you know some? You know in in some places

I like to do my my own translating because you know translators Have been known to be biased.

And so uh, I I want to see for myself what it says It's one of the reasons I don't use the esv because it doesn't have the added italicized words

And I want to know where the translators added words, but that's just me. Okay, so acts chapter 16 verse 31

I know you guys know the context right the uh, uh philippian jailer had had put paul and silas in the in the inner prison and was

Uh guarding him it was uh the middle of the night. They were uh praying and singing hymns um, and and uh, there was an earthquake that opened the cells that the jailer, uh came out and and believing that the uh prisoners had escaped was about to commit suicide because you know, uh

Guards at that time if they lost prisoners they forfeited their own life. So he was about to commit suicide and uh paul called to him and and and uh

Told him to um Do himself no harm that they were still there which uh, uh prompted the philippian jailer to ask the question sir

What must I do to be saved? and so uh They said that as paul and silas said

Believe in the lord jesus and you will be saved you and your household Okay now every time

I have talked to a denominational preacher or A calvinist, you know, what have you?

That's that's as far as the reading goes But that doesn't say the philippian jailer was saved

That's just paul telling the philippian jailer what you know what he has to do to be saved And one of the points

I made with john Was that the biblical use of belief when he says here believe on the lord.

Jesus christ The biblical use of the word believe is inseparably connected to obedience to doing something right hebrews chapter 11

Every instance of by faith in hebrews chapter 11 is followed by a verb by doing something

Okay, so notice there in verse 31 That it doesn't say the philippian jailer was saved in verse 31

That's just paul answering this question. What must I do? Okay, so it goes on Then they spoke the word of the lord to him.

So here's my question. Is it Would it have been possible for the philippian jailer to have believed on jesus?

without hearing the gospel well um

Okay, go ahead. Sorry. Sorry. Can you believe on jesus without without hearing the gospel? Is that possible?

Well, you can you can read it, okay So i'm just I saw i'm trying to figure out if how precise you're trying to be like is it just That that would be hearing the gospel, right?

If you read it, you're here. Yeah, that's what i'm just trying to understand Yeah faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god

Right romans 10 17 Right. So the only source of biblical faith

Is the inspired word of god? Yeah, I can agree with that. Okay, so so we're still in agreement.

So It's not It's not possible that the philippian jailer was saved in verse 31

Because he hadn't heard the word of god yet He didn't know who jesus was when when when paul told him believe on the lord jesus christ

Philippian jailer had no idea who he was even talking about. Well, okay, let me say he went on in verse 32 and Slow down slow down.

Yeah, because I have some questions. So let me just ask how how do you know? He didn't know anything about jesus christ

Because he hadn't heard the gospel it says in verse 32 that that's when they spoke the word of the lord to him So, how could he have how could he have believed in jesus when he hadn't heard the gospel?

Well, why was he arrested? According to axe he was arrested for preaching the gospel, right?

How do you know? because Right, you're saying he didn't know the gospel at this point but we don't know what he knew or didn't know because It was known paul was known throughout what he was doing.

It was known that he was thrown in jail because Basically, he was going around town and he had a demon girl that you know ended up You know, he cast out the demon and that's got them all riled up Um, one other thing though.

I want you to consider just before we move on you mentioned belief You said that the word believe always has to do with obedient text does

The text does okay. Um james chapter 2 verse 19 Oh, wait, wait.

I'm not done with act 16 See this is what happens every time

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait quick. Let's get away from act 16. No, let's stay on act 16.

Let me ask you a question I'm asking a question about what you said you you because here's the thing If you say a lot of things right i'm trying to get clarification

Okay, you say a lot. I have no time to to clarify so i'm just you know I'm, not gonna we're gonna get back to act 16 promise.

Yeah You said that belief always has to do with obedience correct, yes, okay

And that so that's why I was i'm just trying to figure this out because james Well more precisely that's not what

I said. I said biblical faith biblical belief. What do you mean by biblical belief? uh

Because because that means a biblical belief it just said The belief on the lord jesus christ that paul's talking about here

Obviously, he's not talking about demonic faith, which the demons believe and tremble correct

Obviously he wasn't talking about that. He wasn't talking about having demonic faith, which is faith only

He was taught he was talking about having uh, uh, uh obedient faith because then he goes on and tells him some things he has to do okay, well, okay, so we'll get back to this because because yeah,

I mean the the thing I get is I i'm curious with this because it's okay To correct myself that would be the one instance where belief is disconnected from Obedience and that's because it's demonic faith well,

I guess okay, so then I guess what I And we could further get into this Later after you get back to act 16, but i'll give you my question my one question so you can think about it

And you know, so you're saying that belief Is always obedience now we find one where it isn't you're making the exception, but my thing will be is

You know We have to find because we're going to go to the word and the word doesn't say

Belief and obedience it says believe Okay, and and i'm going to demonstrate from the text that the word leave there includes obedience

It it has hold on It has to include obedience but wait before you before you railroad

Let's let's slow down the train Because what I did notice in the last conversation That you had with john

Is you you've been doing this for a long time and you're an expert at railroading. You can't you you're you just said

No, no, but here's the thing. You just said it has to It has to Right and and when we get back to it i'll

But we're there and and what we're trying to do is we're saying what does the text say? No, I think i'm being railroaded instead of being able to show what the text actually says

Yeah, okay but what i'm trying to say is is You're the one doing all the talking and we're trying to get you to say.

Okay Let's look at what the text says and you say I want to see what the text says But you keep saying let's look at what the text says then it has to say

What the text says yeah, and and and the only reason I yeah look um

For justin's sake. I mean, I want I want to try and pull some Understanding out from you. So I understand what church of christ is and we may have to do this over a couple episodes

If that's okay with you, but that's absolutely yeah, I contrary to The definition of a cult that cults don't discuss their doctrine publicly

I'm happy to spend as much time on here as you want talking about bible doctor. Yeah Well, you mentioned that.

Um, let me let me ask you a question because I did watch the episode Do you believe in what's called authorial intent? There's a side sidebar, but do you believe in authorial intent?

I don't know what that is. It means that what we when we read the scriptures we're asking the question What did the author mean by?

Oh, yes, absolutely. Absolutely That is sound hermeneutic. Yeah, that is okay Then let and I don't mean to be derogatory in this but let me inform you that the way you used in that episode

The points john said was absolutely incorrect to the author's meaning Yeah, um, well, okay

When I just took his statement and we discussed i'm the author i'm the author all right and I Do that.

Well, then this is a perfect opportunity This is the perfect opportunity for you to explain to me how those definitions apply to the church of christ

Well that so that we're going to have to first understand the church of christ a lot better before we can I can apply I could tell you what what's meant by those definitions that I could do

I I can't say how it applies to the church of christ until we until I better understand the church of christ, right?

Okay. Well, I mean, uh, all I did was read the comments and and take them the way they came across to me.

Yeah And and that's all I was able to do Yeah And so the the isolationism that you have there just uh, just so you have the context so you understand what what that means?

I Isolationism what you mentioned, uh is defined as as members of an organization or not to speak to outsiders about doctrine unless to convert them, uh, the organization often states that Uh, it is

That it has the truth and wants to protect the people that doesn't mean they don't talk about doctrines

It means The goal of it is is conversion right um, and so the you know, and you you actually

Unbeknownst you said you do talk to convert and that's true of course

I mean, that's the purpose of preaching the gospel and it is to convert people to christ, but I am sitting here opening myself to any question.

You want to ask me you asked me a question I went to the passage to answer the question and now you've derailed me from the passage and we're gonna get back to it

We we're gonna go because I do want to I do want to let you go So so yeah, I just you know, and we could we could talk about the definitions more

So you understand what what it's meant by but go go back to act 16 Okay And i'll get through it quick because you know,

I I don't know. Uh, How long y 'all want to let me stay on it? But uh, Okay, and i'll just read it from the screen.

I'm reading the same thing. The viewers are seeing Uh, so he said to him in verse 31 believe in the lord.

Jesus in verse 32 They spoke the word of the lord to him faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god

Verse 33 took them the very uh that very hour of the night at midnight After an earthquake after almost committing suicide took them the same hour of the night

Wash their wounds that's fruits worthy of repentance. That's you know, what what uh, uh, john preached

That's what jesus preached is what the apostles preached to bring forth as a matter of fact John himself brought up that that verse in our discussion to bring forth fruits.

No way. I think that was chase never but to bring To bring up, uh to to to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance well, that's what the ethiopian eunuch had taken part in paul and silas's unjust beating and he's

Expressing his repentance of that by washing their wounds. Okay, so you got Hearing the word of god romans 10 17 faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god

You got repenting of your sins acts 17 verses 30 and 31 because uh, these times of ignorance got overlooked but now commands now

That was now then when he said it and it's still now now uh

We have to repent of our sins because he's appointed a day on which he's going to judge the world And if we're standing in that day unrepentant, then you know, we're on the wrong side of the the the the division

That's going to take place. Okay, so we have to repent of our sins You see that in verse 33 verse 34 and he brought them into his house and set food before them and rejoiced greatly notice having believed so When does the text actually say?

That the philippian jailer did what paul told him to do in verse 31

It was after he heard the word of god after he repented of his sins after Uh, he was baptized into christ notice verse 33

And immediately he was back immediately in the middle of the night after an earthquake after almost committing suicide

Immediately he was baptized. He didn't wait for you know, some confirmation meeting or you know

Whatever to to give this outward show of an inward faith He got baptized on the spot in the middle of the night after almost committing suicide because he heard the word of god

He repented of his sins and he wanted to be baptized into christ to be saved and after he did that it says

Having believed right paul told him to believe in verse 31 The philippian jailer did some things so that it could say in verse 34 that now he had believed

How did he believe where does it say in there how the philippian jailer believed he believed through these acts of faithful obedience

Okay, now I I would I guess my thinking with that looking at the text Is it says that You know, he rejoiced greatly having believed in god with his whole household

But what what I don't see Is the connection you're making because having believed his past tense

Right, right. Yeah now because he had already done these things. Yes, you you have to And i'm just i'm i'm i'm well, didn't you tell me when he believed well, okay, did he believe up here before he heard the gospel

You're assuming he had not heard the gospel So he and this is the thing you're you're making assumption

If i'm making an assumption that he did hear the gospel, even though the passage Explicitly states that he spoke the word of god

That's an assumption on my part. Well, then It would be an assumption on your part to say he he had

Correct. I mean that would have to be assumption on your part. Would it not that he had heard the gospel But you're making doctrine out of an assumption.

You're making doctrine. No, i'm not making an assumption It says it explicitly right there in verse 32. Justin I have to have norm back for justin and norm to talk.

Okay, I think i'd have to put you in the backstage soon. Justin All right. I mean it is verse 32 an explicit statement or is it not?

I mean, that's a simple question Is it an explicit statement or is it not? Okay, so I have an explicit statement for what i'm saying.

You have an assumption for what you're saying, but i'm basing doctrine on an assumption So, I mean that's how it works, I guess

Well, I could say this the way it will work here is when you ask a question. I try to answer

You got to let me answer Okay so uh the

Let me ask you this does scripture Record everything that paul said to the philippian jailer

Of course not. Okay So but but it does record what we need for all things pertaining to life and godliness does it not so so So here's the thing

You you're saying believe in the lord jesus christ and you'll be saved Is not the gospel correct um

No, the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of christ and and and how to receive That sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins, that's the good news of our salvation.

That's a fuller explanation Yes, but which is there in verses 32 to 34 which which he may have expressed in at within the jail cell

When they're still in jail Where does it say that? Well, you're making an argument from silence.

I'm not you're saying I am i'm using an explicit statement because i'm using three explicit statements

He he spoke the word of the lord to him. He washed his stripes. He was baptized That is three explicit statements in the text.

Why do you keep telling me i'm using assumptions are? About that you asked me when he was saved

And when he heard the gospel verse 31 is the gospel believe in the lord. Jesus christ is him explaining the gospel

Is it full enough for what you like? No, it clearly isn't But that doesn't mean that he didn't explain the gospel back then

So you said when did he believe well verse 31 is when he heard the gospel and then No, you're you're now you're making a blatantly false statement.

Okay, that's that is a blatantly false statement Is it what makes it blatantly false?

We have we have paul Answering the question I move i'll move it up so we can see the question right sirs.

What must I do to be saved? All right, he gives the answer believe on the lord. Jesus christ and you shall be saved you and your household

He answered the question you're saying that's not the gospel Paul's saying that is the gospel paul saying how you get saved

No, i'm saying he answered the question believe on the lord Jesus christ and you will be saved you and your household and then he spoke the word of the lord to him to tell him

How to believe on the lord. Jesus christ Okay, and that was before he went to the house Okay So so he believed

Where does it say he heard the gospel? Where does it say he believed it says?

Believed three things. Yeah but but So you have to show where the text ties having believed to those three things

And doesn't show it tied back to the what he's saying is this is what the gospel is you're assuming

That this was after We're okay Norm i'm reading the text norm.

I was reading the text in in respectful conversation You know i'm letting you fully answer

You're not letting me fully answer. So can we agree? That when while the other is speaking we're gonna we're gonna respectfully listen, is that fair?

That would be great. Okay, so so my point is that when we look at verse 34

The having believed Is a past tense But it is not tied to verse 31

Nor is it tied to verse 33? It is something it's referring to something that is in the past tense

So you're making the case that you're linking it to verse 33 When there's nothing in the text that makes that connection where it could be linked to 31

The same same word in the text that doesn't link it Which word the word?

Told him to believe And then we have explicit an explicit description

Of what he had to believe. Okay, so and then it says after that Hold on though.

Hold on Think about what you just said You said you said he he he answered the question believe

And then you said he immediately explained it, right? But where did that happen? That didn't happen at the home when he got baptized

It says it in verse 32, I mean, how how are you not reading verse 32?

Yeah, they spoke the word of the lord to him together. That's pretty important. I would say so They spoke the word of the lord to him

Right and then went to his house So see this this is what's going on. Okay, you're reading the text through Uh, uh an ideological lens

And i'm not Are you sure about that? Are you positive on that? Absolutely Because i'm actually

Take me to some other examples of conversion. You'll see the same thing What example of conversion can you think of that you don't see the same thing?

Okay, let's let's look, uh, just one chapter before or a couple verses before Um, and we'll look at lydia and and just so you know, uh

For folks who you know for yourself and folks who are watching uh You see red and blue in my bible.

It's uh, anything that is red as the word stay here is That is an imperative in the greek so that that's you'll just see that anything that you see there in blue is

This is just the way that i've coded my logos so that I can spot things right away anything that's blue Uh is a definite article just so you know

Um because people being be like what is like jesus didn't say the word stay that's red letter bible um

Okay, so a woman named lydia from the city of tyre a seller of purple fabrics a worshiper of god was listening

And the lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken of paul That that is lydia again say there's no there's

She No It says in verse 15 and when she and her household had been baptized

So again, she heard the gospel and she got baptized and and her heart was open before the baptism.

Yeah uh you you Believe the gospel when

I mean if you don't believe the gospel, why would you get baptized mark 16 16? Well, I well and that I would agree and that's that Hold on.

I gotta ask on because I gotta make sure we're talking on the same page Um, because I did ask how someone gets right with god and I didn't get an answer

So let me ask a very specific question. Okay Do norm, do you believe

Well, let me ask it two ways I want to know if this is what you believe and if this is what the the church of christ believes because they may be different right uh

I don't want to take for for You know, even though you may be a minister in the church of christ I don't want to take for granted that everything you say is what church of christ believes right because there could be differences

Do you just on that note? And just you know kind of file this away for later discussion

What exactly would you point to as church of christ doctrine? What what source other than that?

That's what i'm asking. Okay. Yeah so, um Do you believe that someone because i'm hearing this i'm trying to make sure do you believe that someone must be baptized to be saved?

Is that your position? The bible teaches irrefutably that a person must be baptized into christ to come into contact with the atoning blood of christ

Uh and and become a christian. Yes Okay. Well, i'll say this. Um, I mean i'm so um

And you haven't shown me an example where that hasn't happened Well, I I would I would say for for justin and I we would maintain

That a man is justified by faith apart from works. Would you agree with that? Uh, absolutely not.

Absolutely not. We you know, we we would hold to the fact that having been justified by faith We have peace with god through jesus christ our lord.

Do you agree with that? Uh, yeah, that sounds like a direct quote Both of them were direct quotes actually, okay romans 3 28 was the one you just said you disagreed with romans 28 is paul talking to the

Jewish christians that were struggling with letting go of the law And a synonymous term for what he's talking about in works in that text all the way from romans chapter 2 to romans chapter 11

A synonymous term is the deeds of the law. So works deeds of he's talking about the law of moses

So no, I don't believe that we're we're saved by the law of moses. Absolutely not. Of course not Uh, what does it so it causes me

I guess ask what what does law mean? Uh, well, there is the the law of moses, right you would agree with that, right?

And there is the law of christ we today are under the law of christ not the law of moses Does would law have other meanings?

uh precepts commandments, um Testimonies, I mean there's a lot of synonymous terms used for law.

Yeah, there's five different uses of law. Okay Yes, it could be the law of moses

It refers to morality It refers to works Okay in fact

The way that rabbinic judaism would say that we get right with god to answer the question from rabbinic judaism

Would be to do torah to to obey the law to do the works of the law um, and and and that's what jesus was dealing with in his ministry, uh,

Correcting the um legalistic uh

Judaism that was being practiced in his day, which was not actual mosaic judaism. I mean he

He says that many times that that the the law that they were practicing wasn't the actual

Uh mosaic law it was it was more of a rabbinical law uh they were divided up into sects, which there's no

Authority in the law of moses for those different sects. So Jesus told them you you make void

The word of god by your traditions you you uh You make your worship vain obeying the commandments of men or or keeping the commandments of men as as doctrine

Right, and so jesus dealt with that paul dealt with that So much of paul's writing is dealing with as you know, we we talked about hermeneutics a little while ago uh

The the epistles are occasional, uh, uh, uh writings they they were they were written to address a specific uh occasion a specific circumstance or problem if you will and and uh,

A great deal of paul's writing was specifically to address the the judaizing christians that were trying to uh, syncretize, uh judaism with christianity and and uh, he he

Has a lot of ink On that issue and and what

I pointed out in john's comments is that every single instance of him going to a text to say that that uh,

Salvation is by faith only and and not of works Every single one of those passages are where paul is dealing with Uh judaizing christians every single one

So so to to to make other application of that You know an application which not coincidentally

Explicitly contradicts what james said about faith and works so they both can't be right That's why luther didn't want james in the bible.

He wanted to throw out james because it contradicted his Misapplication of paul's statements.

Okay So so there is one book that deals with the judaizers and that would be the book of relations

What about hebrews What about the bulk of romans Yeah, I I was not there's a great deal of new testament writing dealing with Because you're

I I would say that's because you're saying where you see the word law you have a very specific Use of it that is not the way it's it's used

Uh, it would be either by hebrews or by christians And I I you know, so I would say that the burden is going to be on you to prove out your argument but I I think what you're you like you accused us of having um,

And I forget the exact word. Uh Idealistic things that we're reading into the bible.

Well, I I'd say the same for you here. There's there's nothing here Projecting your ideology onto the bible rather than forming your ideology from the bible and that's what

I think you're doing right well based on the fact that The source of that ideological formation other than the bible when all

I study is the bible Okay, so the the argument he's making here is on works the the law

Is irregardless in in fact He he makes the argument about circumcision

Right a work that we do right See assuming that you just said law of moses the law of moses that it doesn't say law of moses here

In fact, as you can see in verse 28, it's not a definite article It's not the law of moses because that would have there would be it'd be the law

But in the in that in that context where you are In the context of roman's chapter.

I mean he he he in roman's chapter two He starts speaking and he says it explicitly, you know talking about oh man and then uh, uh identifying the oh man in the in the text as the jew

And he's speaking Specifically to jewish christians that are trying to mingle the law of christ uh with the law of moses

Specifically what he's talking about. Yeah, so he's he's gonna talk right about abraham

Yes, correct right to make That justification is not tied to the law of moses because abraham was justified, uh in in relation of moses 230 years before abraham and yet there were still works before moses and yet there were still works for abraham

There were still works prior to to the law. That's the whole point. Absolutely. And so when it's when it talks about works here

Right the the issue being addressed here is works versus faith and he's making explicitly clear

We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law

Not a correct interpretation of the of the text See that's the whole thing.

I didn't actually interpret it. You did I read it so you have to explain how

Reading the text you're saying when you read it that it's not Normal reading again for maybe maybe you missed it out of your mouth.

It's not so just Just because we we're not we have we only like 10 minutes left tonight, but we may go long but All I did was read i'll read it again.

We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law

Okay, and you told me that's a that I have a wrong interpretation It what did

I how did I interpret that wrongly Because you said that law there is not the law of moses and that's a wrong interpretation it is explicitly definitely the law of moses

Let me try this more time Of the text. Okay. Let me try this one more time.

We mean deeds of term with works We agreed that we wouldn't talk over one another that we'd respect one another

Okay so, please it you know, um I gave you a long time to talk

But every time I start talking you start talking over me Uh, would would you mind backing up in the text to verse 20?

Well, I first want my question answered I'll back it up. It's a field Okay, you said that i'm not interpreting it right when i'm reading it, right?

Yes Okay, and you're not reading it. You're saying that that's not that you said it

Those are the words out of your mouth That's not the words in my mouth was this and i've said it five times now in this show

We maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Now.

I actually read that to you And you said you disagree. I said I read it to you

The very first time it said do you agree with that and you said no I I disagree with your use of the word works there because you're not you're not even discussed what my word my use was when you just you did you told me that that you and Justin both believe that a person is

Justified by faith. No, no, no, no works You did not mean works of the law of moses though So I guess my my

Uh, my fallacy here is that i'm using some common sense to understand what you're saying to me without making me say it explicitly

So here's the thing Yeah, so here's the thing You say you're using common sense i'm going to challenge you to go back relisten and when

I said is Justin and I believe that we maintain a man that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law

You said you disagreed with that? Before I explained what the law was I read that to you and you said you disagreed with that Now you're saying and all i've done is

I keep reading it And you keep telling me i'm wrong in my interpretation when I don't even have to interpret it You told me

I was wrong before I even interpreted I made an assumption about the way the word works and I still maintain my assumption was correct

So my question is real quick. I got to ask the question Are you basing your interpretation on because earlier you said that you?

Uh go through and do your own your own translation because they're all the most of them wrong

Is this why you see this? Yeah, i'm not sure that that's the case Yeah, that's that's not what

I said I said, you know, go back and listen. I like to do my own interpretation. That's what

I just said Okay. All right And that's my question are you basing this upon your own interpretation?

Which is what I said that you just argued with no, you're arguing a lot. I used the uh, new king james translation

So you're using the new american standard, which is perfectly fine translation. I'm i'm fine with new american standard

Okay, that's why the reason i'm asking that is because andrew specifically read something you said

I don't agree with your interpretation so that's why i'm asking and I'm trying to i'm trying to get somewhere with this conversation because What it is is it's you're wrong.

You're wrong. You're wrong. I've refuted It's irrefutable and things like that. Those are just you know arguments from authority and we're trying to get somewhere on it.

It's not Instead of directing me at you know Gotcha questions or whatever.

Why don't you just ask me questions and let me answer I have Okay, he has we have you've asked me questions and you haven't let me answer

Okay, right. And so so I mean I have asked them, you know, I try to ask

I don't try gotcha questions Okay I want to understand what someone believes

And and and I have a history of this i've written a book on world religions I I actually went to people

I went to an imam. I went to rabbis I went to a cardinal in the catholic church. I gave them those chapters that am

I accurate to what you believe not one Said I was wrong. In fact, I had a mormon church of jesus christ.

I already saying say I don't like the term mormon anymore Uh, I went to someone there and he said no christian ever

Can write what we believe accurately I told him he could if I did got anything wrong You can have a free copy of my book.

I said but but if I if you can't find anything Then you got to pay for the book. He agreed never paid me

But he admitted that he can only he found three grammatical things two issues. He said they were so insignificant

They weren't worth mentioning and one that he that he agreed that he ended up agreeing that there's this debate within the lds

So he didn't find a single one That that i've said inaccurate. So when I ask questions, it's very specific for me to get a very clear understanding of what someone believes

Before I start to engage I have I have like two dozen questions that just listening to the two episodes you guys had of of trying to Understand where you're at, but I have

I have a lot of questions. I want to ask Okay, let's get to them. Let's go but We can't get long answers where you never actually answer.

Okay, because you've If you say so, okay Okay Okay, so so let me

I I want to get back to the first question I asked you because it is important to me to understand this How does someone get right with god?

You have to hear the word of god romans 10 17. You have to believe what it teaches about christ in this kingdom acts 8 12

Oh, are you gonna you asked me a question? I know i'm trying to write them down. Okay, so you

You you have to believe what it teaches about christ in this kingdom. And you know, uh, john 8 24, you know,

I I I give out random verses for the different points at times that you know, because it says it in more than one place.

Okay, uh, Believing what it teaches about christ in this kingdom you have to repent of your sins acts 17 30 and 31

Luke 3 3 and 5 I think and many other places Uh you having repented of your sins you have to confess that you believe jesus christ is the son of god romans chapter 10 verses 9 10

Making that confession with the mouth unto salvation which the ethiopian eunuch did when he said I believe that jesus christ is the son of god

You have to be baptized into christ, which the ethiopian eunuch did Right on the side of the road when he said behold made the exclamation, you know

The the the the sea here is water is a little too weak for the for the literal text It it's more of a a you know emphatic declaration behold water.

What's hindering me from being baptized? Philip said if you believe with all your heart you may and uh The ethiopian eunuch did the only thing that that he could do to let philip know that he did believe he confessed with the mouth

Unto salvation And making that confession that I believe that jesus christ is the son of god So philip and the eunuch both went down into the water and he baptized him.

Uh, they come up out of the water The holy spirit caught philip away And the eunuch got in his chariot and went on his way rejoicing because he knew he was saved at that time

Are are you i'm i'm, I I don't i'm gonna ask this question, but I don't mean

I don't want to let me get rid of The since we're done with this. Um, are you we're done with the bible?

Okay Well, no just for for for because you weren't talking about that. Um, are you capable or um,

In and I don't I I'm trying to figure out how to word this. I don't want it to seem derogatory You can't offend me. So it's okay.

Okay Are you capable of answering direct precise questions without?

A sermon without going off on all the these other passages and other. Oh, you mean don't give bible references for what i'm saying

No, i'm not capable of doing that No, I didn't say that but you're you're going into a whole bunch of of other things and into confession with I just what?

No, you asked me the question what a person has to do to be saved and I laid it out with book chapter and verse

For each point I answered your question as rapidly as I possibly could. Okay, so next question

Okay, so someone has to to be right with god You have to believe in the bible

And what it says about christ right repent of sins. Yes and confess And have confession of faith, correct

Uh confess that you believe jesus christ is lord. Okay. Yes. That's that's what it takes to to be regenerate

Uh, well you left you you didn't include everything I said you didn't reiterate everything I said. Well, you didn't ignore the bible

Your your own confession that was the last thing that you mentioned no, it's not I said baptized into christ

Okay So the fourth one is baptized into christ as the ethiopian eunuch did after his confession both he and the eunuch went down into The water that's where you started trying to interject before I was

No, yeah And you were explaining down into the water He baptized him which you cannot find one single example of conversion in the book of acts that doesn't contain at least two

Of those things that I just said uh Hearing the word of god and being baptized every single example of conversion now through inductive bible study

We know through sound hermeneutics that once you gather information Uh that may not be stated in every instance once that information is part of the body of knowledge

You can't take it away. So that's you know, we we see in other examples the the uh

Repenting and and confessing and but in every example there's hearing and being baptized every single one

So so now here's the thing. Um, is is that true or not? No, it's not. Um, show me an example then uh, but but here's the thing

I I want I I want folks to realize and and and folks who are regular here

You know that you know, we want to do apologetics. We want to see how people you know how to do apologetics

So folks when you hear someone that that uses on that will sound hermeneutics That is an appeal to authority to say i'm doing it right whenever you hear that that's usually someone that's going to break it.

So uh now notice you you You said there were four things But every every example has at least two of them

You're you're you're incorrectly representing what I said But you believe what the bible says about christ and his kingdom repent of our sins confess that jesus is lord

Yes, uh and baptism Uh, well you left off the the first thing that you have to do before you can do any of those things

Which is hear the word of god Okay, because I I reiterate you didn't you didn't say that one.

So, okay, that's not true I said romans 10 17 Actually, he said hear the word of god there at the first time he went through this or the second time he went through this

Yeah, how many times have we been through it? When when I went and and reiterated this when i'm trying to write it down I asked him that and he did he didn't include that.

So, okay, so I'm not gonna you know, let you misrepresent what I said though. So okay.

Well, I did I i'm look i'm trying to be Precise with this i'm trying.

I mean, that's why i'm taking notes That is one reason why he asked you to slow down And and the thing

I don't I mean, I i'm just gonna be honest with you I don't see that same respect. You're you're not even trying to understand what i'm saying.

You're you're assigning to me I don't misunderstand you in any way Really because you told me

I was I you told me what my belief was before I told you On the law am I am

I not true? It wasn't not true that that you believe in uh, a faith -only system of salvation

That you're saved by faith alone No, I didn't say that you you assumed that you didn't

That's not true. If i'm wrong about that i'm glad i'm wrong because that's not true. No, it's it's what you're you're

Okay, you're missing the point. So i'll try to be clear. All right. I don't want to miss any points you so so You assigned an assumption to what

I believe before I said what I believe Okay, you you even had it had said

That you assumed it and you were right Okay, even though I didn't clarify what

I said the law was but I was right Really even though i've yet to tell you what

I believe the law is there. Well, you just said I was right No, I didn't was that not the words that just came out of your mouth that I Right, it was you you said

That you were right. I put it that way. I I said you said I am right. That was your mouth from you

When I when I gave you what i've written down here and I I read it back to you to make sure I was

Correct. I started with believe what the bible says about the kingdom repent of sins Confession of jesus and baptism and then you correct and said

I didn't add baptism So that's when I said four things. Those were the four You so those are the four i'm saying you earlier said there were four things that were always

I never those words never came out of my mouth. Okay, we'll go back and listen um One of us tries to be precise here at least and i'm not saying you're not but you're just not displaying it

I said there were three things in act 16 between when paul told him to believe and when it said he actually did believe

Those three things being he heard the gospel he repented and and he was baptized You said every example of conversion.

There's there's four things. They have they all have at least two Every example of conversion. There's two things.

There's at least two you mentioned and baptism in the in the various Uh examples when we gather them all together

We see that there are some other things in there too that once we once we have that information

We we don't just throw it away and pick and choose which one of those we want to do We have to do all of those things okay, so so What i'm doing is

Which what you're saying go ahead and read it then. Yes. I want to be biblically correct. That is true

Yeah, drew says seems like he's only concerned about being right rather than hearing what andrew and justin are saying Brother if you just listen what andrew's trying to say instead of jumping over him

I said at the beginning I noticed that you like to railroad And I I mean this in the most due respect i'm trying to be

You know andrew knows that i'm i'm not very quiet and I I usually have something to say and I i'm

I'd I have tried my best to be quiet Uh, sir, you haven't and i'll say this you have not and it's very

No, I didn't know the thing is a conversation A conversation is not a monologue and that's what you're very good at Is um so so Let me let me

Because i'm I am trying to understand your position Okay, it's not hard to understand

Okay, so you're you're saying that every example of conversion Has has at least two of those things, correct every single one of them

Um, but you're saying all of them are required for salvation, is that correct? Okay And yet scripture doesn't have in all cases all five of them, correct?

That is true. Yeah. Okay, and and the reason i'm asking is because if you go back to the act 16

When it says what must you do to be saved? He doesn't provide everything there But you're saying

That he if he doesn't provide all of the explanation. It's not the gospel No You you you asked me before do

I think that everything that paul told the philippian jailer was recorded there? And I said no, of course not.

Okay, so so When I said that that was the gospel you also said no because it didn't include the other things, correct?

No, that's not what no, that's not correct I said I said believe on the lord. Jesus christ is not the gospel

The gospel is the death barrel and resurrection of christ for our sins uh, and and uh, uh

The and I even define gospel as good news. It's the good news of the sacrifice of christ for our sins

So believe on the lord. Jesus christ, uh is is not

The summation of the gospel. No Okay so um

I I don't know. Maybe you didn't notice what you just did but I asked I asked a question You you then answered a different question, so I don't know if you if you did that purposely or by accident

I'll assume by accident. I thought I was just responding to what you said. Okay, so so when we were talking in act 16 right um

You know and you said where you know, where did he get saved and I I said Verse 30 you you said where did he hear the gospel?

I said verse 31, right? And verse 31 or 32 one says believe in the lord.

Jesus christ, and you'll be saved you and your whole household Right. So it's verse 32 where paul actually preaches the gospel to him

Okay And and see and that's the thing where So this this is what

I was saying, right? The only thing we see paul saying is in verse 31 Where do you see you where do you see that?

He's preaching the gospel in verse, uh, was it 33 you said? Oh verse 32 it is it is an explicit statement

Then they spoke the word of the lord to him and it's really amazing that You have to keep pointing to an explicit statement and yet still be asked.

Where does it say that verse 32? Explicitly, I mean they're I mean i'm just Maybe I shouldn't have made the assumptions that I did.

I was just assuming That we all understood, you know inferred things and and uh, um, uh explicit statements

We do Listen, I you know, I just thought we understood the only difference is is that we you say you believe that but at certain times

You don't want to practice that it seems when it doesn't agree with what your ideology is.

So for example, for example when you it says What must I do to be saved and he answers it and says believe in the lord.

Jesus christ. You're saying well, that's not it then yeah Correct and he took them

Yeah, there's other stuff there then verse 31 is not the The the full context and so you want to take an isolation an isolated verse away from everything else the passage

And say that's all it says on the issue Okay, but norm that's not what i'm doing.

That's what you're doing and i'll explain why because when it when it comes to Okay, go ahead okay, look, you know if If I mean it really

I'm sure i'm trying to be rude or anything, but it is I mean it's absurd. I keep warning And I keep being told that i'm not seeing what

I think I see So and and and i'm glad you worded that way you you answered you actually worded that correct

You're not seeing what you what you think you see and that's true because you're not seeing what the what the scripture actually says

Because you're reading into it When it says that he having believed you're ignoring verses 31 and 32 and saying that refers to verse 33 because you're tying it to the baptism

And that's not what it says. Did he get back? Does the text say he got baptized? Let me ask i'm curious.

Well, I asked do I ask it does he did get asked did he get

Yes He got saved the same way the thief on the cross got saved

Which is you said to give you an example where someone wasn't one of those things. Well the thief on the cross The thief on the cross you were saved like the thief on the cross

You got up on a cross next to jesus and he looked at you and said you'll be with me this day in paradise So you were saved like the thief on the cross good.

I'm glad. Thank you. That's what I was hoping you'd say. Okay You turn to first peter 321

Sure, or I can just quote it. Let's let's put it here on screen

So folks can follow Sorry I don't like to keep it up the whole time

So here's here's verse 21 Corresponding to that baptism now saves you

Not the removal of dirt from the flesh but an appeal to god for a for good conscience

Though through the resurrection of jesus christ now, is that is that water baptism? Saving us for regenerating us uh

Yeah, I think you're making a distinction that's not there. I mean, what's the difference between saved or regenerated?

It's the washing of regeneration and renewing of the holy spirit The does okay. What is what does saved mean here?

What does it mean that when it says that baptism saves you what does saved mean? It means saved.

I mean saved means saved. I mean No that that's in the verses just before this

What what does it mean? What does save that baptism saves you in what does save mean?

uh Saved from A an evil conscience because it's the appeal to god for a good conscience

Save from sin save save for eternal life. I mean, how many how many ways do you want me to define saved?

Yeah, I mean the the simple way of doing it is that you can't define something by using the same word saying saved is saved

Is not a definition Okay, i'm asking you for the definition. What does it mean to be saved having the remission of sins and the hope of everlasting life?

Okay, and that's what that means. Yes. Okay, so Just be you want to practice what you just said.

Yes So noah was saved from his sin By entering the ark because that's what this corresponds to in verse 20

Peter is using a type and anti -type literary format to use the flood as a type for baptism for uh, uh salvation in christ, so uh using the the typology of Noah being separated from a sinful world by the flood uh by the water of the flood he

Then corresponds that to baptism which separates us from a sin sick world and adds us to the kingdom

And and so what folks what I want you to just notice what norm just did there is he safe? Safely there and saved he uses two different ways that is

What's called a fallacy of equivocation to use the same word two different ways Which he just called me out on or tried to call me out on doing what

I I expected would happen unfortunately for him what you end up seeing is he this is a case where you see that when

Because this seems like a clear example norm that baptism saves You'd use the word save out of its context.

You rip it from its context Because you're right there's a type anti -type, but you can't take the fact that there's a type anti -type means that the word save Is got to be used the same way and you're not using it the same way

Because those eight people didn't get saved entering the ark being that they are washed away from sin that didn't happen

But they were they were brought safely through water That they were they were saved from destruction

So so what we and and this is this is the thing I mean When I watched the the discussions that you had with john and then afterwards, uh, i'm trying to remember his name

What's the gentleman's name you talked with? Chase chase. Thank you. Uh with chase I I saw this and and I I think that part of the struggle that I think

You may not even know you have is that you don't have a precision in some of the the words and the theology that you're using because you're mixing up the doctrines of of Justification and sanctification a lot just like you did here that you're mixing up what say what it means to be saved

Okay Because he's he's Being really clear In the fact that this it is tied to no, but this is not noah wasn't saved

By entering the ark that didn't save him. What saved him was god God saved him through the ark.

Just like we are saved. We have the washing and removing is from god not from baptism

So you don't think I believe that? Hmm, you don't think I believe that that the saving comes from god.

Yeah, I mean I I I guess you know some of the assumptions I made I definitely i'm gonna have to you know

All right, then let me get rid of those assumptions. I mean, I wouldn't I just assume that you understood I believe salvation comes from god

Sorry, so when I asked you how do we get right with god you gave me five things that god said to do

Okay, so I guess to go back to what you how you started if I had asked you How you got saved?

And you and you wrote it down. I guess you wouldn't have come up with the same thing that we Look at from scripture um

No, I definitely don't believe that's the case well because uh

I I mean when I went through it when you asked me the question I went through it I gave you book chapter and verse for every single thing.

I said Well, I asked you I didn't base anything on my assumptions or my opinions or my interpretations

I just quoted verses and said that's what the verse says you have to do When I asked you how do we get right with god?

Did you not give me five things hear the word of god? I gave you a bunch of verses and summarize those with some points.

Yeah, okay and and in Hearing the word of god

Do we do that or does god do that? We do that. Okay, believe do we do that or does god do that?

We do that Repenting of sins. Do we do that or does god do that? We do that confession of uh

Confessing lord jesus christ. Do we do that or does god do that? We do Baptism, do we do that or does god do that?

We do. Okay, so you explained to me the five things that you said Get us right with god.

You said we do all of them. Not once. Did you say god does any of it, but you say Colossians 2 12 does this put put put colossians 2 12.

Sure the the point you're missing though is you're you're saying that i'm i'm taking out of context and and things but How am

I not? You just we we do all of those things Through faith in the working of god, but you didn't say that when when

I asked you how we get right with god You gave me these five things all things we do we have to do.

Yes And and but the thing is that you're saying these are the this is what you gave me So so I think

I would have to be right that I said if you wrote down how you get because because I asked you

And I wrote it down And guess what now you're saying something different. No, i'm not Okay, what am

I saying different to what I said already? because you said That we do these things as it buried with him in baptism

In which you were also raised with him through faith In the working of god, so I did all those things in faithful obedience to god

Because god said that I would be saved Okay Not I didn't do those things just because I felt like it

I did those things because god said that's what I needed to do not needed to do That's bad wording that that's what

I had to do to be saved. Yeah, we don't want bad wording. Uh, But here's the thing norm I asked you

How to get right with god you gave me five things now you're giving me a sixth thing You give me something that you didn't say earlier

So so what do you mean a sixth thing? What what did I add god that god could I could add a sixth thing which you know colossians 1 23

Continue in the faith grounded in steadfast and not moved away from the hope of the gospel So yes after being baptized into christ

You have to continue living a faithful lifestyle and that would have gotten us to our debate on perseverance of the saints

Because you know, uh perseverance of the saints says you don't have to continue faithfully No, it doesn't

It says says it says you you you can't not continue faithfully So there shouldn't be any conditional statement saying that you can stop being faithful wait

Okay. Now, uh, I mean now so Uh for folks who who understand what perseverance of the saints is they just probably picked up on something

That you disagree with things you have no knowledge of this is the dun the dunning -kirger effect.

Okay, so, uh in in person Well, let me just explain what I believe about We're on this because we don't we don't have the the time

Okay We we can certainly do this again I mean, I I would love to have you back because I I still have a ton of questions.

I want to ask but um the the the point is is that You're you're

Looking at these passages Right and like for the one that you just brought up colossians 2 12 to 14 right

Um, I said colossians 2 12, but I mean 12 to 14 is perfectly fine. Yeah. Yeah Well, I I you know as we look at this

Right. There's not any of the verses that I don't accept. So sure read all you want.

Okay so Let me let me ask this when when was our

Sin debt paid for according to this passage before us colossians 12 13, uh 12 to 14

The blood of christ paid the price for my sins when I was baptized into christ to have my sins washed away by his blood

Uh acts 22 16 romans chapter 1 verse, uh 5 I think or not romans

Revelation chapter 1 in verse 5 loved us and washed us of our sins in his own blood ananias told paul

Why are you waiting arise and be baptized and wash away your sins calling on the name of the lord? So when you harmonize those passages, where do we contact the blood of christ when we're baptized into his death romans chapter 6 verses 3

And 4 so, you know, I I can you know harmonize the passage I don't have any problem harmonizing the passages because I don't believe things that cause contradictions between passages

Okay, so folks you guys who are regulars here. You've seen me do this before you you saw what he just did He had to jump out of this passage

To read into the passage son. It doesn't say you notice he couldn't answer the question He he couldn't he couldn't answer the question from verses 13 and 14, which is where the answer is

He had to jump up to verse 12 and then jump all over the bible and and this is the thing folks

When you get a guy that just cites a lot of scripture verses It sounds like wow, the scripture really supports it

He can't he's not going to exegete those but he's not even exegeting the one that's right in front of us And and this is the thing when you guys see me do debates.

What do I do? I don't do a lot of jumping around the bible all over the place. I stick to a couple of few verses that make a point

And exegete those and deal with what they actually say if you have to jump all over the bible norm to make

The bible say what you think it says That's what you're going to do If you can't stay in this text and answer the question that the text is answering then you got a problem

So i'm going to ask it from this text. Well, hold up Would I be correct in making the assumption that you have probably frequently?

Made the comment that the bible is its own best commentary Statement I don't

I don't use that exact language, but that that's fine I mean, I mean you've never you've never said that the bible is its own best commentary uh, or do you even do you believe that that the bible is its own best commentary that harmonizing passages helps uh, uh bring out the meaning of passages when you get the parallel and you see well the the difference is

I would answer it this way every cult I'm, not saying that you're a cult. I know you had that previous discussion.

So i'm not saying that Every cult harmonizes passages every cult does that and they often do what's called isolationism

And so you mentioned harmonetics the first thing you learn in harmonetics At least in our class when we teach it is the wrong ways to do it

Isolationism is one of them where you take a verse out of its context One of the things I do is say we have to read it within its context

Then if you're going to cite another passage that has to be within that context and the context has to be the same Just citing a passage because the word happens to be

In this verse and in that verse doesn't mean it's used the same way an example the word save You used it incorrectly in one passage because that's that fit what you believed, right?

But That is used properly in other passages where we see saved but it wasn't in that one

That one had a different meaning that the appeal to god for a good conscience doesn't mean salvation

As the general use of the word salvation. It's something Totally different I mean that That's what you're saying.

What is it? What what did the term save mean in that passage with and you saw it with noah? you know if the word saved is the same then noah had to be

Got right with god by getting on that boat if that's what that word saved means You you can't by faith.

Noah moved with godly fear and prepared an ark for the For the

Noah moved with godly fear and prepared an ark for the

You want me to turn to it? Is that what you're looking to do? Are you stuck? Is that what it is?

No for the saving Right Back, uh back it up a little bit

No, no, no, no, no hebrews chapter 11. Oh verse six Uh, yeah verse seven by faith

Noah being warned by god. He heard the word of god about things not yet seen in reverence prepared an ark for the what

Salvation of his household, uh without that ark they would have died in the flood, correct? I you know what

I I could I could not have illustrated what I just said better we can move on now

Yeah, what folks you see what he did keep the word saved Does it ignores what it means in first peter but says oh look here's the same word saved with noah

So it must mean that talking about the same thing. Is it not? So noah got saved by getting on that boat.

That's what got him right with god saved from the flood. Yes Is that what you're saying?

He got right with god That's the way you explained it in the next verse so you're using it two different ways

So i'm i'm going to ask again in colossians What is the salvation that peter's talking about in first peter 321?

What is it if it's not? The appeal to god for a good conscience Right, that's that's how peter defines the word saves

The appeal to god for a good conscience, so if that's not what peter's talking about then what is he talking about well

Let's take your hermeneutic let's take your hermeneutic so baptism now saves you Well, i'm just i'm using it the way you're saying not the removal of dirt but an appeal to god for a good conscience

Through the resurrection in a bath. It's obeying god The way that you used it earlier when you explained it with me then with the thief on the cross

Then we must be resurrected with jesus right to be saved So we're not saved until we're resurrected with jesus because that's what it means resurrected when christ comes back.

Yes He's not saved yet. He's the first fruit Uh, I will So you're not saved yet, right?

Uh, well, of course I am. Yes. Well, no not until you're resurrected. You're not That's your hermeneutic.

That's the way you just did it with the thief on the cross. No you say with This Has happened many times in this in this uh segment where where you've blatantly misrepresented things i've said, okay

Well, you you go. I don't know if it's purposeful or just you know, bad memory or what but no No, actually here's the difference

I'm challenging you to go back and fact check it because i'm telling you When it came to the thief on the cross you said well you got to get up on the cross

Are you getting up on the cross? Well, this is through the resurrection. So until you're resurrected i'm just all i'm doing

Thief on the cross as an example for how people can be saved today. How is that? No, I did by faith.

I said I said you you wanted an example where someone got saved without baptism and I gave it

Exactly. See that's exactly what he did and you're not listening No, no, no.

Hold on. He was talking about about salvation That is apart from the work of baptism

Before there was any such thing as christians He actually was talking about hold on just a minute wait, wait just a minute jesus christ was introducing and bringing in the church but The entire time that he was on the earth.

He was bringing in the church. He actually proclaimed it multiple times throughout the Matthew mark luke and john we see that he's he's introducing the church

Coming you hold on. Hold on. Hold on and and he says This is my body

Which is given to you for the remission of sins he institutes the lord's supper and then he is dying on the cross, okay

First peter 3 21 as he was trying to explain to you is not about physical baptism

It's about the confession of a good conscience That's what he's trying to explain to you

He was trying to trying to get you to see that and you're you're i'm just going to tell you you're so smug That you cannot listen to somebody try to talk to you about something without ridicule it's it's incorrect

I oh, I know it's incorrect according to your the way you want to absolutely interpret it.

No, no He's saying you saying that he's smug is incorrect. No, I am smug.

I I you know, I own it. I'm Lord, i'm so glad you finally agreed to something. I'm fine with it. You know,

I it doesn't bother me. Uh, What i'm saying is that your interpretation Of the type anti -type

Literary structure that peter uses there is incorrect. You're not interpreting it correctly. That's what i'm saying

So you're saying he made no application of it he made no interpretation after reading it he considered the context

Comment, so let's just move on because this isn't getting any okay Let me try to wrap up with this one justin's because this will be the last thing and and norm

Would you be willing to come back on another time? Absolutely for the full two hours Okay. Yeah, and and and we we we had arranged with jamie to come in Several weeks ago.

So, you know, I wanted to honor you honor that and uh, and you know

See that, uh, you know another opportunity to share the gospel with him and try to get him thinking of Of things that matter, uh, you know, and and the same would be for you.

Let me just ask you a question real quick Both of you was jesus preaching the truth and love when he called the pharisees and sadducees and scribes and lawyers blind guides hypocrites fools

Was was he what I said truth and love when he did that? Truth and love. Yeah, I mean

I think I you know I think that the most loving thing you could do is sometimes say hard things for people

Uh, you you ended you said on the show. I Think it might have been with chase uh, you you expressed that and and I would agree with that, you know, we we're

You know, there are times when you have to say hard things to people They don't want to hear that doesn't make it not true

I can amen you it's okay And I was I was agreeing with you when you said on your show from from colossians 2 um

Let me just back up here some when we look at you know, verses 13 and 14 is is where it talks about our our you know our sin debt

Right canceled when did that get canceled? When we were baptized into christ for the remission of our sins to come into contact with his blood

Okay, and where do you see that in verses 13 and 14? Uh, well, he's explaining to um

The colossians not to let the judaizing teachers bind The law of moses on them and saying that the circumcision with what you with which you were circumcised with It's not a circumcision made with the hands.

It's it's uh, it's not the removal of of Physical flesh from your body.

It's the removal of sin from your from your soul That's the you know, i'm i'm paraphrasing that's the context of what he's what he's saying there.

Would you agree? Am I right? I don't agree. I mean you're assuming it's the judaizers. I I see nothing in this book that is

Uh addressing judaizers because as as you as you mentioned don't let them bind the dietary laws on you

Don't let them bind the sabbaths on you That's not dealing with judy judaizing teachers No, it's dealing with jewish people that some some might be you may have some cases

But this is as you said on your on your podcast or your show Uh, there's a lot of similarities being colossians and ephesians written to gentile audiences so So this is he's not he's not dealing with that in ephesians chapter two, which is very parallel to colossians chapter two

Broken down the middle wall of separation so that the two the jew and gentile can be one new man in christ

So that's not dealing with judy icing teachers so church at that time that was the original persecution of the church okay, so so you don't believe that the certificate of our debt

Okay was was canceled out at the cross. Is that what you're saying? uh

Jesus did what was necessary for our salvation on the cross

And we have to respond to that, okay I'm gonna i'm gonna stop you just because you're gonna go off answering a different question than what

I asked again So i'm going to ask it again, and I want the answer to the question that I actually asked not something else

All right, you know, I I mean Every time I try to answer something you say i'm answering something else.

So because you're not maybe it's just that i'm speaking um Biblically and and so you're hearing something else.

I I don't know reason the reason I would say you're not is because I'm, i'm giving you the passage and you're answering from somewhere else

Okay, so because the passage tells us All right, when when you were doing your trespasses and sins and uncircumcised in your flesh

He made you alive together with him having forgiven us all our transgressions

Mm -hmm. Okay having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of the decrees against us which was hostile to us and He has taken it out of the way

Having nailed it to the cross. That's the law of moses. That's what was nailed to the jesus fulfilled the law of moses

That in where I didn't see law of moses anywhere in what I just read. No verse verse 16.

What's the uh, Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink

You and you're proving it again I'm in the text i'm reading it from no you're not on the screen

Okay Verse 13 says you have been forgiven of all our trespasses.

So you're saying the transgressions practicing isolationism I'm when i'm trying to look at the the whole context of what's there and you're just saying no just that one verse

Okay. Well that one verse is in a context and I have to address that text in a context You when you say isolationism, are you referring back to the definition of cult?

Uh, is that what you're saying isolationism was was uh a term you used earlier for for isolating text from their from their overall context

Did I misunderstand? Yeah, it's okay because that's what you're doing here Just look at verse 13

In isolation from the rest of the context and I and I won't but but you're ignoring the immediate context

To to come up with a context that will fit your definition. That is 16 is not in the immediate context of verse 13.

Well, you're You're ignoring verse 13 to make the point i'm asking you what is all transgressions?

What's all our transgressions? Is that just the law of moses? When you were dead in your transgressions and uncircumcision of your flesh

He made you alive together with him having forgiven us all our transgressions.

What are the transgressions? Going back to verses 11 and 12 and further back So you're saying that's just the law of moses uh

No, i'm saying that leading up to this that's what paul was dealing with and and the point he's making about circumcision

Is the circ the judaism The judaizing teachers were trying to bind circumcision on the gentiles paul is saying you you the circumcision that that that uh,

Justifies you or makes you part of the covenant is not a physical circumcision and then he defines that you didn't answer the question

I'll ask it again. I guess i'm not going to answer it. So just go on to the next question

What are our transgressions are those the just Say again sin against god sin is sin against god.

So all of our sin against god Was and and was having it that's canceled out, correct?

That that is true. Yes when we're baptized into christ all of that baptized in christ is having nailed it to the cross

You're you're ignoring verse you're taking verse 13 away from verse 12 verse 12. No, no, no

I'm i'm actually reading it in context because i'm not Putting something that verse 13 doesn't say into it from verse 12.

Okay. Well, I don't agree to disagree. So let's just move on Well, I I think the thing is is that this is a major thing for you to to Let me ask you a question.

I mean it really is astonishing Because i'm i'm i'm i'm putting the verses together

In the context of the letter that paul wrote to the corinthians in about 64 a .d

For a specific issue or the colossians rather For a specific issue in colossi at that time which a large part of the problem that the church was facing at that time

Was the original persecution of the church they were killing apostles. They were killing new testament prophets like stephen uh, they were persecuting the church and and and if they didn't go along with judaism and being circumcised and keeping the sabbath day and And the dietary laws of moses that the the jews wanted to persecute them

That's what paul's dealing with in the text and and you want to ignore that and I I can't ignore that.

So i'm, sorry No, you what you are you're ignoring Um anything i'm saying

Trying to even remotely understand it. Okay. I'm not ignoring verse 12 But the the question verse 13 after verse 12, right?

Yeah, okay Just I just want to make sure I wasn't making unfounded assumptions And so where where is it that we're discussing this

We're discussing what is what is the hour trend when the hour transgressions? Uh are when that occurs and it says having nailed it to the cross you're reading into it verse 12 that you're

You're reading something in that is not the point the point of verse 12 is is

Now you're in verse 14, right? So you're going on to verse 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt insisting i'm doing this now

I'm, just muting you until you learn to respect Other people, okay You you must stop talking over someone

When they're when they're speaking, can you do that? Okay Okay So what you have you want to look at at verse 12 we'll back up to verse 9

Okay for in him is the fullness of the the deity dwells in bodily form and in him you have been made complete

And in and he is the head over all Uh in all rule and authority and in him

So this is speaking of christ in him. You were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands

So clearly this isn't talking literal circumcision Because it's a circumcision without hands.

It's a spiritual circumcision So he's he's doing a play on words on circumcision In the removal of the body of the flesh by circumcision of christ having been buried in him

Sorry buried with him in baptism. So obviously we're not literally buried baptism is a picture of something

What is it a picture of that in which you were also raised up with him through faith

In the the working of god who raised you from the dead end of sentence when

So now's the question. This is the thing. I was asking the when and this is Wait, but not the end of the paragraph

Okay Oh goodness. So so you just you can't stop interrupting And that that's that that really shows something

Yeah, okay. Go ahead. Do you have a lack of self -control? Maybe I guess

I don't I I suppose so Then you should be a minister First timothy three and titus would say that you wouldn't be qualified then well

So what you see here is when? You were dead. So he's answering when you were dead in your trespasses.

So when we were in our transgressions Okay And the and the uncircumcised of your flesh

He's tying that to the same thing that he says in verse 11 with this spiritual circumcision, right?

It's not a physical circumcision He made you alive with him so so he's saying he's talking about a change where we go from being dead to alive

Having forgiven all our transgressions So this is all our transgressions

Have been have been forgiven having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of the decrees against us

Which was hostility to us, right? So that are those debt that was hostility to us and he has taken it out of the way having nailed it to the cross

Now that is what the text says. I have no problem reading the full context you are taking this and saying that It isn't when he our transgressions weren't at the cross

You're saying it was at our baptism But the problem is that baptism is an illustration of something that you want to make literal

This doesn't say That he canceled it out with our baptism Yes, there is the

Baptism is an illustration now. Here's a simple harmonetic printable for you. You see you want to study harmonetics

You do not make a literal over a figurative. You do not make a doctrine

Over something that is meant to be an illustration He's using baptism as an illustration

It's very clear from the wording with the circumcision to point out now that our debts are

Paid and he says it having nailed it to the cross. He doesn't say having nailed it in your baptism

When you put baptism in here you are reading that in yes It is in the the local context not the immediate context and in that local context

It's used as a as an illustration It's not used as the way you're using it as a proof

It's not being used as a doctrine And I understand that you can't see that but I would argue the reason

I think you can't see it is because of your ideology Okay. Now you disagree with me and I understand that but let me ask you this norm.

I want you to seriously consider this And I know we got to wrap up But we could pick up next time.

But here's the thing. I want you to consider you believe I'm going to put words in your mouth, but I don't think i'm wrong on this

You believe that i'm reading into passages of scripture from my ideology. Would that be fair?

Would that be accurate? Yes or no uh It's okay.

You're not gonna hurt my feelings Uh defined a little bit. Yeah Okay, I mean I I'm I'm not

I I don't think you're reading something into the text there you're making a misapplication of what the text says because the

The certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us is the law of moses. Here's See and and here's the thing law of moses isn't in there.

You're reading that in When you just we just said that our transgressions are are all all of our sins

It's not the law of moses there. You you said that earlier. That's our sin Okay, and he's not saying having forgiven us of all our transgressions against mosaic law

He's not saying that he said all to all our transgressions. You're adding that but here's the thing. I want you to consider

You're you want to Convince me And this is that's this isn't a problem because i'm going to be doing the same thing with you.

You want to convince me that You have a biblical position And that I should

I should believe what you believe, correct Yes, okay, and and I want you to believe what

I believe, correct But I won't Okay, why not because it's not right.

Okay, you you're you're not biblically accurate. That's why why am I not right?

because you're not uh You're not interpreting the text in its context.

Can I can I read something real quick? No, well, can I just can I just read a brief statement real quick? Okay, I want to I want to finish some first Is that fair?

Sure. Sure your your problem Here's the thing norm I want you to think you're trying to Convince me.

You're right How are you going to go about doing that Are you are you going to go about doing that by just telling me?

I'm, right. You're wrong No Okay, but that's what you've been doing That's why you won't it's because you won't you you won't let me talk for more than just a few words.

So that's uh, no Sorry, hysterical. Sorry, but Correct you for talking over me not letting me speak

I mean you you've only kind of behaved yourself after you got muted for doing it I mean,

I'm, sorry, but I don't mean to be mean but that's a little hypocritical of you to say okay um

Now You I want you could read what you have, but I want you to see what i'm staying within the context

You see you're seeing the word baptize You're you're you're putting this in there. That is not in verses 13 and 14.

Is it in verse 12? I agree with you. It's in verse 12 as an illustration of something just like verse 11 To point out what verses 13 and 14 are doing.

So here's the thing When we do interpretation we got to focus the majors on the majors

Not the minors of the major an illustration is supporting the main thing Okay, so what's the main thing?

The main thing is is what christ has done for us That is the primary If you were to block diagram this what you'd end up doing is you'd have

Versus verse 9 and 10 is going to be out to the left and the other things are supporting of it

So you have the supporting arguments? Then it backs back out in verse 13 because he's making a point now about our sin

Okay, and so you are focusing on the word baptism when that and the circumcision are supportive to the point

You're making the supporting argument the main argument That is the mistake hermeneutically

So when when and so to answer the question that I asked you you said I I asked whether you know

You could I didn't ask this question. I was going to ask whether you could be wrong But you kind of answered in a different question. You said that you're right.

You couldn't be convinced because you know, you're right Okay, the reason I would disagree.

That's not the same thing as saying I can't be wrong. Yeah. No, I know Okay, that's that's fair fair enough.

I mean, I I wanted to ask that question much earlier But but you say you you're right and and but here's the thing all i'm doing is looking at the hermeneutical principles.

You're breaking okay, and You're you're what you're doing and I say see i'm not saying you're wrong because you disagree with me

I'm saying that you're wrong because you're not following the principles of hermeneutics Okay, so go ahead and read what you want to read uh,

I typically Don't use commentaries a lot but sometimes I check them just to make sure i'm not way off on something or or to see you know, if If if maybe there's something else

I need to look at and and uh, this is a good one Uh, the first requirement of the law circumcision introduced a

Jew to all of the law's obligations Conversely, let me just ask you real quick if what what it is, or do you want to put it up on screen?

uh, it is the Well, you want to put it you have it on screen, uh

Can I yeah, go ahead share. So i'm not I wasn't interrupting you to interrupt you I'm interrupting you to help the the viewers to follow along I know you shake your head when

I said it. It was it wasn't to stop you from saying it i'm trying to Help emphasize help you to emphasize your point

Okay, there's my there's my screen All right. Let me And I I have no idea what the author's denominational affiliation is

I have no idea. It's a new american commentary on philippians colossians and philemon

So I just you know while you were talking I just opened it up Okay, that's a little bit better.

Uh, you want me to Um, let me just make you know how to make the text bigger. Oh, yeah

Cool. Thank you. Uh, what I was going to do is maybe do this Yeah, there was that okay

Okay, so, uh, this is on colossians 2 11 and following the first requirement of the law circumcision

Introduced a jew so I mean they seem to recognize the context. Okay to all of the law's obligation

Conversely, the jews taught that no one could keep the requirements of the law without having been circumcised

Every jewish boy was circumcised and it was first And it was the first responsibility of a male proselyte

Paul defined circumcision in verse 11 and related it to baptism in verse 12 his discussion in Christological and spiritual his discussion is

Uh christological and spiritual rather than physical and legal now, you know,

I didn't read but I mean that I agree with that summation of the context Really?

Okay. Oh that that surprised me. Okay. So you agree that the baptism is Is not physical it's spiritual rather than physical and legal uh

Where did he say he just said he read it every uh, Sentence his discussion his discussion is christological and spiritual rather than physical and legal.

Yeah Uh this see even this comment you're you're you're picking out something.

It says out of the context. He's talking about the the the Recognizing in the context that paul is acknowledging the the attempt to bind this on I don't dispute that though That's never been the discussion

So that's the whole thing you you've been avoiding the actual discussion to focus on something that we haven't been that hasn't been the focus

You you're focusing on I keep asking the same question about when our transgressions were paid

When they were canceled out and you keep going back to something that's not there You're saying oh, but it's about the the jewish but see the the fact is that wasn't the question

The the question is when does the text say that our transgressions were canceled out?

And he says having nailed it at the cross And i'm saying that's in a specific context and and what is being referred to as nailed to the cross

There is not my personal sins. It's it's the the uh, uh

Legalities of the law of moses that the jews were trying to bind on christians But when I asked the context, but when

I asked you what when it says having forgiven all our transgressions I asked you what the transgressions was you said it was our sins

So are you disagreeing with what you said earlier? No You're not disagreeing.

So you do agree that all of our transgressions were nailed at the cross. No But that's what it's you can't have it both ways

You can't say that our the transgressions refers to our sins But then say that when it says our sins were nailed to the cross that it's not nailed to the cross that that's the law

Of god or law of moses What did jesus do on the cross And he paid the price for our sins and and I understand why the passage yeah

This is the thing. I understand. This is hard because if you believe baptism is required for salvation But all of our sins were paid at the cross

Then you I understand you have a problem because all of our sin was paid before there was a baptism

What was is this passage saying that circumcision saved, uh, the people in the old testament

You're saying that you're saying no, that's not that that's not paul's point in the passage paul's point in the passage

Oh, I agree with you there Is this passage saying that circumcision let him finish because he was okay

I'm, sorry. I miss I misunderstood. I was trying to get a response in there. Yeah, but paul's point is uh

Refuting the attempts to bind the law of moses in the church of christ

He's refuting that that's his reference to circumcision and then saying that you're certain you you weren't circumcision

You weren't circumcised with the circumcision of hands. You were circumcised with a spiritual circuit

You had the body of sins removed not not skin right that that's his point

Okay, so he's not he's not making a case for for the efficacy of circumcision for salvation there

Of course not he's making the case that it's not binding on christians that they have to be circumcised

So don't let the jews, uh bind that on you you go down in the text. He gives some more examples of that.

So are you? Let me just answer some justin, but that's not what the text the immediate text here is saying

You you even agreed with me when I said is the circumcision physical or spiritual? You you said spiritual same with the baptism.

You even read from the commentary that said the same thing It's it's it's spiritual not physical and now you want to use it physically

And you're trying to shove that in and and and this is why I think you're doing it because this passage here

Destroys the argument that baptism is necessary for salvation. It destroys the argument

I don't know if you hold to this but for some that do it destroys the argument that someone could could

Get saved and lose their salvation. And the reason it does is because all of our sin was paid at the cross

So uh The passage that says having been buried with him in baptism in which you were also raised with him

Through faith in the working of god. That's resurrection language. That's somebody who was dead.

That's now alive That's resurrection language and that resurrection takes place when we're baptized.

We're buried with him in baptism We're raised with him to walk in newness of life. It's very very clear and so Oh, sorry,

I want to see whether you've been listening to me. What did I say that was What type of what type of language?

what type of Speech is it? Uh, you said it was a supporting point to I think you said the point about circumcision.

Yeah an illustration, right? Symbolism symbolic language. So yeah, but that's

I mean, there's no reason why you would take that as Being symbolic. Okay, so you you believe that you're physically circumcised without hands

And that's his point. No Okay, then then you can't see that again We can't you can't you can't take the same point and then say okay, but for the next verse we're gonna throw that out

No Connected to the circumcision, correct? Because he he shows there when that spiritual circumcision takes place

And it's when it's when you're buried with him in baptism In which you are also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of god.

Now i'm reading from the uh, english standard version is Is the baptism tied to circumcision?

In this passage, uh, yes, it's it's it's when we are spiritually circumcised

So spiritually circumcised then it's yes when we're baptized into christ That's when that removal of the body of sin takes place for the baptism is spiritual as well, correct?

I don't I mean Yeah, baptism is a spiritual act.

Yes, but it's something we have to do just with no no, no, no, no, no You're you this is the this is okay.

You're using baptism two different ways Okay, no, no, i'm not you just said i'm really not this is an illustration.

This is a spiritual baptism This isn't a physical baptism, but you're switching it and then saying well, it's physical

He's using the physical the physical baptism as an illustration of something spiritually just like circumcision

A physical circumcision he's using in a you know to illustrate something by giving a spiritual

He's doing that in both then he goes on To make a new point In here that now in not a supporting point, but a major point a primary point which is

Then to to look at how this is That when this occurs and he's saying that all our transgressions not just the law like you had said

All of it was at the cross He he ends up saying that and so and I and I keep saying over and over again that Uh, you're making a misapplication to what was nailed to the cross

You mean by reading it? But like no, you're not just reading it. You're interpreting it.

No, not So so what what I did was I you you're the one that's reading in baptism I'm, not

I am it seems to me like verse 12 uses the greek word baptizo or some form of it and it's translated

Or transliterated rather as baptism. It should be translated as immerse So here here's here's the text.

Okay, i've put it out so that people can see All right So here you have

The main the main point here and when you do block diagramming you you you indent the supporting points

Okay, so here you see that it's supporting right? So this is the point that we have understood verse 11 and 12

This is supporting this is explanation Then you come out here to a new primary point

This is this is not To trying to emphasize that the baptism here is not emphasized looking i'm looking at your block

Excuse me for interrupting, but i'm looking at your block that you have on the screen and it's got the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of christ and then supporting uh or or back

Now you've scrolled it off the screen. That's that's oh yeah, so uh in support of the circumcision of christ he says

Having been buried with him in baptism. So that I mean that's really clear I'm glad you put it up there like that because that makes it really clear

Yeah that the point when you are circumcised in christ is when you are baptized when you're buried with him in baptism

Okay So you're physically circumcised in christ so folks who can see the screen can see what he just did

Right because I want you guys to look at verse 12, which is the one he's focused on right And then look at verse 13 where it's backed out.

Why because verse 12 11 and 12 are not Supporting verse 13 verse 13 is now a new point.

Thank you. Great great So then why are you making this transgression down here the same thing as being buried with christ up here

I didn't you did I said no, I did not I did say that's the law of moses

This up here is paul's point to say you're not justified by by the law of moses. You don't need physical circumcision

It's a spiritual circumcision when you're baptized into christ The text is just as clear as it can be

If you're not going to it with preconceived notions and you have them because I will look at the bottom of the screen the major point

Having taken away taking it away Taking it out of the way having nailed it to the cross.

So As we look at this i'll ask this again our transgressions, which you said is our sins

Was it nailed at the cross? No Okay, that's what it says and what do you do?

See, you keep saying that that that that that handwriting that was nailed to the cross that certificate of death

That was nailed to the cross that that's our personal sins and that's not what it's teaching But that's what

I asked you. You keep saying it was so you're now saying that the transgressions are not our sins Okay.

All right. Well, I guess you know, uh, you know, you need you need to be consistent and The the reason you're having trouble i'll try to do better can't you know

I don't know how many times you want to go over the same thing The reason you're having trouble is because of the fact that you're trying to put an ideology into the text

Okay, and you think i'm doing that and I understand that and you think that i'm wrong in saying that and I understand that What i'm trying

Desperately to do is to show you and and what you are you you you you can't because you're misrepresenting the text

And i'm not going to i'm not going to agree with it Nor nor to agree to disagree So, you know, we're not getting anywhere with this one.

I mean the way it comes across to me as being purposely obtuse So, okay, you're gonna move on disagreeing with yourself

I want you to go back and I I seriously consider ask you to consider going back and listening How many times

I asked you if the transgressions are our sins and you said yes, I I will admit that when

I heard the word transgressions Uh, I and and I wasn't, you know thinking specifically in this text.

I I've said sins Yes, and that's what that's kind of what I was talking about with gotcha and bringing stuff up, you know different and And and then you know then saying okay

Well when you misspoke about this word because you were thinking about a different context i'm going to keep throwing that back at you

Okay, so keep doing that great So hold on just a minute. Well, I want to finish with this What is the debt?

Uh, i've said it like 20 times the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us

Which was hostile to us and he has taken it out of the way Nailing it to the cross that is he's referring to the fulfillment of the law of moses

Just like he did in romans chapter 7 just like he did in galatians chapter 3 just like he did in very many places

Okay, uh to to to say that that you know Look, these these judiazers that are trying to bind on you.

Okay, uh, uh points of of judaism Don't let them bind those things on you

Here's the thing all of that that you've put in there isn't in the text if you look at the text it's transgressions

Transgressions, which are the sins what is you're you're reading this in all i'm doing is reading the text

The scripture says that christian is transgression of the law. You keep telling me it's it's sin

But yet you admitted that it's the trans all our transgressions doesn't say some of our transgressions

It doesn't say transgressions against the law all our transgressions it then further qualifies that in a supporting thing

Having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of the decrees against us He now

Supports that with which was hostile to us comes back to the main thing and he has taken that out of the way

Supporting Having nailed it at the cross The fact is what this text clearly says when you read it without reading into it that our transgressions were nailed at the cross

That's when they were paid now I understand It's exactly what it says. It doesn't say anywhere in here the law.

It says all our transgressions not some all of our What's the what's the middle wall of separation in ephesians chapter two, which is okay.

You're going to another A parallel passage No, you're not Parallel passages.

Got it. No, it's not When you see but here's the thing you're jumping to another passage because this one doesn't support your argument

You're reading it on using an illustration from another passage. That's teaching the same thing Middle wall of separation same thing he refers to here is the certificate.

No, that's not the middle wall of separation What you're trying to say is that the law of those is in the old testament? Hold on the middle wall of separation the middle law of separation is the separation of the veil between the holy of holies

No, you're wrong Really? Yeah. Okay. So you know separation was the the the uh,

Separation between jew and gentile required by the law of moses. So what is the phrase? Down so that jew and gentile could be one in the body of christ

So are you saying you saying that to jewish people the context of a middle wall separation would be a separation of jew and gentile

Yes Okay, let me let me let you know you're wrong. How do I know that? Because I grew up jewish

I know exactly what is what it refers to what does that have to do with what the bible teaches? Because you just said this is what jewish people believe you're no, that's not what

I said. That's not what I just asked you Is What I said you see you're blatantly misrepresenting what

I said, I said the middle wall of separation in ephesians chapter anybody to Is the law of moses?

I I separated jew and gentile and Said that christ had torn it down so that jew and gentile could be one in the body of christ

I did the same exact thing exact words twice Okay, this is like the three hour five minute mark

So go back a little bit and I want you to look at the question. I asked you I said Do you believe that jewish people believe that you said?

Yes Now you're saying you're I never said that you said I I guess I Misunderstood the question didn't hear the question.

You know, I I I didn't hear that. I was answering that This is what jews believe but you do this consistently moses did separate jew and gentile, correct?

Yes, it's nothing to do with the text. I mean you're reading that in Okay, all right because it's not the meaning of it

Okay, and this is the thing you keep doing you're not listening to what i'm saying You know why you know why I'll never convince you norm

Because you're wrong because you're so prideful that you're not listening It's not pride.

It's it's not pride. It is it's not pride, you know, it's assurance No, you know how I know of what the text teaches.

It's not pride You know pride is is no, you know, you're you're now you're charging me with a sin

Okay, norm The reason I know that that's what it is is because if you believed as you just said that it's the assurance and knowing the text

Yes, you'd be willing as as first current as second corinthians 13 8 says there's nothing you could do against truth by truth

You'd be willing to hear me out Understand what i'm saying and then compare it to scripture You've yet to do that you continually read and every time every time you

I say you said something Oh, well, I just didn't understand what you're saying Okay that that so either you're not listening which then is a problem on your part

Because you're so busy trying to answer or you're not listening because you just think you're right and whatever

I say is wrong Either way, that's a pride issue I know I mean, there's a difference.

There's a difference in being Uh confident and being prideful. I'm I I don't believe i'm being prideful, but you're not being confident

And i've explained why you're not confident because you're not listening to what i'm saying through for two hours

You've you you have no i'm not agreeing with what you're saying. There's no difference No, i've asked

I ask you very specific things then you go. That's not what I said. Yes, it is It's exactly what you said ask it.

I'm in time Ask it plainly ask me the question plainly so that I can hear it clearly and I will give a direct

Question again plainly do jewish people believe that the middle wall separation is the separation between jews and gentiles uh

I I have no idea what jewish people believe it doesn't really matter It absolutely matters because that's what he's referring to He's referring to a phrase that jewish people would have that is a separation between it's the it's the veil that separates the holy of holies

That's what it is. No, no, you're sure Yeah Actually, isn't that exactly what he ends up was that that's a fusion is not a veil.

It's a wall Middle wall of separation, you know, he does talk about the veil in other places and he you know

He knows the difference between a wall and a veil. So what what is it again? Ephesians? What ephesians chapter two?

Because I don't remember it off the top of my head. Let me uh, remember, uh, Ephesians chapter 2 and verse 12 remember that you were at that time separated from christ alienated from the commonwealth of israel

Seems pretty clear and strangers to the covenants of promise having no hope and without god in the world

But now in christ jesus you who were one You who were you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of christ for he himself is our peace

Who has made us both that's jew and gentile us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall

Of hostility i'm still reading the esb uh in in the new

When I quote verses i'm quoting from the new king james Which says which says and has broken down the middle wall of separation having abolished in his flesh the enmity

That is the law of commandments contained in ordinances So as to create in himself one new man from the two who's both who's the two if not jew and gentile

Let me ask you this when we see dividing wall We read that in 21st century understanding or do we try to understand what the first century would understand it as?

Uh, we certainly want to understand it the way the the original author Used it when he wrote it.

Okay. So the dividing wall is a reference to the wall that that was split in two

The veil that was split in two no Okay, okay

So this is actually what jewish people have always believed that that phrase So so you just say no and then you say but you're not prideful.

So you You have to realize i'm saying I don't agree with your interpretation of it

And if that makes me prideful then, you know, i'm, sorry, you feel that way but you know, it is what it is, I guess So, where do you get your information from?

from the the scriptures, uh paralleling passages and and studying the text, how do you know and and uh, reading the the you know histories of of What was going on at the time that the things were written and so, uh, you know using

Okay, so answer my pride and tested Harmonical principles. How do you

I know you say that but you I want you to practice that How do you know what dividing wall meant to the first century?

understand it's it's it's absolutely

Explicit in the text what he's talking about. He's talking about answering

I'm going to the text. I'm going to the text. So, you know, you you want me to to say?

Okay Well, this is what jews believed about this or believe that and i'm just looking at the text to see what the text actually says and he talks about this uh

Separation between jew and gentile no question. That's what he's talking about There's no way you can deny that he's talking about jew and gentiles being separated by something right something

Caused a separation between jew and gentile. He refers to it as the the law of commandments

He refers to it as the ordinances That that was fulfilled by christ.

And so i'm just looking at the text. I I know that you got into a discussion whether Church of christ is a cult.

Let me let me give you one thing with a cult. They they lack integrity with language You're doing that.

Okay, because i'm so i'm going to ask you again in the first do you believe it's intentional? Or do you believe i'm just duped?

This is a question. I asked john that he wouldn't answer, you know, I don't I I would I mean Do you believe that I am the evil cult leader or I am the gullible?

I never seen person. I haven't said you were a cult. I mean, I I said I said this is what cults do

Okay, so so so you're saying that the way that i'm interpreting scripture is cultic that's what you just said

No, you just said I am using a cultic principle of interpretation on the scriptures That is exactly what you just well not not explicitly what you just said

I said that cults use lack integrity in language, which which

I do which which i'm doing That's what you said that i'm doing that i'm asking the question again What did the jewish people at that time believe?

Dividing wall is uh if You're asking me what they believe the division between jew and gentile was which is what the text says

I didn't I know you didn't ask that because you you don't want to ask me according to what the text says You know if I I don't know what what first century jews believed about a dividing wall

How would you based on this text? I would say that you know, they were pretty clear that the law divided them from the gentiles norm

That's why peter wouldn't eat with gentiles and paul called him out for being a hypocrite over it norm so now

You don't know what jewish people believe of the people in the first century the the dividing wall

How would you go about finding that out? uh encyclopedias dictionaries, uh cultural studies histories, uh, maybe you know,

I've talked to uh um, hasidic jews and orthodox jews and and you know secular jews and and um, you know, they've told me that They don't practice a old testament judaism because they can't they practice a rabbinical judaism

Which is not what and and i've been explicitly told this By a hasidic jew that they practice rabbinical judaism

Not old testament judaism, correct? That's correct. Okay. Yeah, I mean every I mean Rabbinic judaism has been ever since the dispersion but the point that i'm making here is and and you know when when you

When you stop trying to prove something you actually can be reasonable All right, because now i'm trying i'm asking you questions to see if if you can

So we would go to encyclopedias. We go to cultural things. We go to things to learn what they meant

But you're telling me that it doesn't mean what i'm telling you from research and from history And from from the very things you say to use and from my own background to know what it means you're saying i'm wrong why

I'm, not disagreeing that there's a barrier between the jews and gentiles that has been separated. I don't disagree with that You're so busy focusing on that you're avoiding and ignoring the the specific question i'm asking and you've done that consistently

Because you're so busy trying to make a point to to argue something that i'm not even arguing so You're doing it consistently.

So so my interpretation of ephesians 2 14 to 18 is incorrect.

You're you're saying no i'm saying that it doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about in colossians To one as a parallel passage the way you're using.

Uh, sorry colossians to 14. Yeah Okay, okay Okay And stay there and I disagree

You know, I mean Convince me, you know, let me ask you another hermeneutical question convince me.

Okay another hermeneutical question Okay, when we want to understand the context Do we first start with the passage that something's in?

Or do we look for other passages? That are parallel To interpret it or or may say things similar to interpret it uh to to correctly understand a passage of scripture you need to to study it in light of the

Entire letter or book where where you're studying it the the uh, uh

Sectional context, you know, some some people use terms like overall context remote context immediate context

So yeah, all the historical context cultural they're all involved But which which ones where do we start like help me understand?

Where do we start and how do we because you mentioned all of them, right? You mentioned historical immediate the the context of the book all these different things

Where do we start and then where do we like? How do we progress through the different contexts?

Where's the starting point and then which where how do we go in in order? I I mean, there's not really a short answer to that.

I really like uh, Oh, I can't remember his name. Um, the name of the book is the hermeneutical spiral.

Yes. That's um, osborne Osborne that's right. Yeah, it's great book another one. Uh, very detailed very very uh, deep

Technical one of my one of my favorite hermeneutics studies. Um, uh fee and gordon, uh,

Uh reading the bible for all it's worth. They're very good. Uh, yeah, but can you answer the question? uh, well

Examples of the hermeneutical principles I use while i'm studying. I mean That's a you know, it takes me a long time to teach classes on hermeneutics and so I mean, how how detailed do you want me to get?

Okay. Well, let me let me take a stab at let me take a step Before I would attempt to to interpret ephesians chapter 2 verses 14 through 18 before I would attempt to interpret that I would

I would do an introductory study of ephesians to get the cultural setting the historical setting

To get all of those contexts in place. I would read the entire book and and and and look at you know, the the uh, uh,

You know, what's the term pericopes of the you know, the the breakdown of the subject matter in the huh?

It's a preoccupy. Okay Like a periscope but yeah, it's not now it's that way.

Yeah. Okay. So yeah, but but you know, it it means the the uh section uh subject matter, you know the breakdown of the of the

The central themes of the book essentially. So yeah, you you you uh study through the book get that breakdown in place

Then you look at specific passages in light of that. Okay, and so so I don't know so No, because I I think that the way you start no

I'm, just saying you start with the immediate context the pericope you start with that. I know but you asked me what i'm telling you

Oh, I thought you were repeating back to me what you thought you start with the pericope you start with the immediate context of what it's

Saying because that's where it's it's giving the definition of the words the terms things like that Then you branch out to the to you want to go chapter you could do chapter

But chapter breaks are not inspired neither are verse breaks, but you break out from that so you want if you have something that is a section where you are starting to uh,

Where as we're looking at you have something that is supporting Well, you're going to start with well, what's this supporting?

That's the immediate context that right there in that in that part So you're going to use that because we're in the sentence structure may end up helping us to see how a word is used

What it's emphasizing what's it supporting is it being used as an illustration or as a literal? Things like that then you branch out and work your way out to to a book

You can end up then going if you're looking at specifically a word You're going to then want to look at how that word is used by the same author

Because the author may not use the word the same way you then can break out into how the word is used elsewhere in scripture, but just because A word is used several times one way by many writers of scripture doesn't mean it's being used the same way every time and so that's why the immediate context is so important and that's why when we're looking at colossians 2

And in verse 13 and 14 i'm looking at specifically That passage and i'm looking at where you're saying when when it talks about transgressions i'm saying, okay

What is the transgressions there? We've agreed. It's the sins but then you're saying the certificate of debt is just the law

I don't see that there because it's not saying the law. It's saying the certificate of debt We are reading that in now.

The question is is why now is it is it that this? Certificate of debt has a reference to the law.

That would be an argument. You'd have to make and support historically Okay uh

You know, you haven't you haven't done that you you made the claim but you'd have to do that But if it says having all our sins forgiven all our transgressions

They're all Not partial all have been forgiven and then he emphasized when it is having nailed it to the cross

Now that is a clear reading of it. I'm not inserting the law You you can't disagree.

It's a clear reading because all i'm doing is reading it. No Yes, that's all i'm doing you you you went from transgression to nail to the cross and you completely left out the the

Debt of handwriting against us. You're right. You know why I i'm i'm not going into the supporting text

So so having the having Right when you look at the the word having there Okay, this is supportive

Of the the transgressions It's it's a supporting thing So you don't make the supporting

Argument the main argument, but you still but even with that the certificate of debt

You're reading into this that the debt is the law of moses But but I don't see where that says law of moses

Okay, it doesn't say that and all i'm doing is reading it. I've read it several times that he has forgiven all our

Forgiven us all our transgressions having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of the decrees against us

You're saying the decrees are limited to the law of moses I don't see that here and that would be a strange thing when he's writing this to gentiles

That you're saying you're even saying it's to gentiles who are who people are trying to get them to be

Judaizers So he's writing it to gentiles. Then you end up having it a saying

That that these these decrees which were hostile to us And he has taken it away having nailed it to the cross now notice.

What are those decrees? Huh? Well, I would decrease what are the decrees? I would say that it is our transgressions because that's what the text says

Look look at i'm gonna i'm in a sweat box over here. Okay. Well, we we got a We've actually gotten really long.

We're almost three and a half. I mean it's I mean i'm fine to go as long as y 'all want To yeah. No, I I think that this is now no longer anthony time.

This is called championship time from now on. Yeah Yeah, well, we go this long. Why don't we do this? I mean, I I think

I think i've I I think i've said that I think this is a really a key Passage for so let me ask you to do this norm.

I i'm going to give you a homework assignment. Would that be okay? Okay, so you believe the certificate of debt

Consisting of decrees is the law of moses, correct? Yes, correct And i'm saying that that is not what that's not in the immediate context because this is this is supportive of transgressions

And I disagree and you disagree. So what I want you to do is show me where certificate of debt

How that refers to the law of moses But you okay you because you're saying it's because he talks about it before with the circumcision

He talks about it after with the sabbaths and the dietary laws and the new moons. It's right there in the context

It's right there. And you know, if you don't count that the immediate context you've definitely got to count it as the the it's

It's it is but but the thing is is that you're using an illustration for the main point So that's the mistake in inverse.

Uh, was it? I mean, I looked at the block text you put on the screen and it fit exactly with the way i'm reading it and understanding

It it is not. Oh, okay Well, I again I I disagree and I don't know how you know many times you want me to keep saying

I disagree No, no, I I understand. I just I I Uh share

I I want you to so let me explain a block diagram for some folks the way you do this in a block diagram

Is the the the main points are to the left? And then the you know supporting points move into the right

Are you telling me that this end at the end here where it says in verse 12 11 and 12, right?

Where it says by circumcision of christ having been buried with him in baptism In which you were raised up from dead is that further right or left?

To verse 13 when you when you were dead in your trespasses now if if i'm reading that right

Uh things that are moved over to the right just like an outline is is a is a supporting point, correct?

So a supporting point to the circumcision of christ Is buried with him in baptism.

And so what i'm saying is that That is supporting paul's point about the circumcision in christ not the circumcision of the flesh according to the law of moses

But the circumcision in christ that takes place at baptism. I have no problem with that.

That's not the question Well, if you don't have any problem with that, then we agree on the text and we can for sure move on Is the main point is verse 13 notice that that's all the way to the left that's all the way to the left

That's a main point. You're you're reading in the baptism here Or sorry the circumcision

That is a a supporting point not of this verse But it's supporting all the way up here where it says rather than Rather than according to christ

That's what that's supporting that's supporting that in For in him the fullness of christ dwells in bodily form

That's further supported by he is the head over all authority Which then gets down to this question of circumcision which then is supported by the issue of baptism

Then he gets to a new point and this is the whole thing with this. This is a new point

That's why i'm starting in verse 13 and you're you're reading something in that's supporting a different point and reading that into this point

It is so so so starting at verse 13. You're saying that that is not connected to what paul just said right before that I mean

Is that what you're saying? That is so i'm saying it is connected and it has to be understood in harmony.

Yeah, so It's connected right here to where it says to the request see that see to it that what are you seeing to it?

That no one takes you captive This right is in line with that So yes, the way that you indent this is that this all this from verse 8

To 11 it the and you know back backing up again to verse 8. What is he talking about there?

What what is that because I mean you're making the point that it's all connected. It's all the same context what?

Uh see to it that no one takes you captive But your philosophy and empty to see according to the traditions of men in the elementary principles of the world rather than according to christ

And it's indented under that going on and making that point. Sorry. I know you can't see me pointing at the screen and Look here's the thing norm, you know, it's actually kind of funny is paul's whole

Paul's whole argument here is circumcision couldn't save you You see the connection between circumcision and baptism baptism can't save you either

No different than circumcision couldn't save you that that's part of the point here but the point that i've been pointing out to you is that this is

This is supportive and you can how about a how about a simpler context?

uh that that may be a little easier to to handle and Uh, like like mark 16 16 because you just made a comment that baptism cannot save you uh, and and you know, what about what about Uh, you know mark 16 16.

How do you how do you explain away baptism in mark 16 16? I mean, I already know how you do but I want to I I want to hear you.

No, I want to hear you do it Oh very simple I I look to the canon of scripture that when we look at the manuscripts that probably wasn't in the canon

Okay, so, you know Another luther. Yeah, I understand that there's debate over the long ending of of mark.

Yes. I'm aware of that You know, I I am I am, you know fairly biblically educated. So yes,

I I do know of the textural textual variance and things like that I think the case for the long ending of mark is pretty well established

Uh, yeah that it's really wasn't there in the earlier manuscripts, okay

So so if you're well, I mean, yeah, that's a convenient way to get around that one, huh? Just say what just say it's not it's not part of the text

Well, why don't why why can't you prove your case from the text we're looking at? Why do you have to jump somewhere? I have

I have like 20 times. Yeah, but the whole point is You have to make the case you're using something that's supportive

For a previous point to make the case for the main point that you have here

Okay, and I want you to notice that in verse 15 Where's the indentation it pops back out?

So the next part that you're talking about with the new moons and sabbaths What is supporting that's supporting this part where it says when he had disarmed the rulers and authorities

So the point is is that what you claim is supportive for verses 13 and 14

They're not supportive there. They're supportive of two different points That's why I say all i'm doing is reading this text

You're reading into the text because you're taking yes, it's the context around it But you're taking things that are illustrations and making them literal

You're taking things that are supporting other points and making that support this point And if you can't see that then

I can't help you because you're not you don't you're just not wanting to see what the text actually says and I know you disagree with me totally yes, absolutely

The thing is is that Here's the thing norm. Let me just end with this Okay, because because we will end up but let me just end and and I know you you're going to feel this way toward me

I get it But norm the reason this would be so important I didn't even get to I I hope you come back because I have a lot

Of questions. I want to ask you that I we didn't even get to But here's the thing Norm If you're saying that someone has to be baptized to be saved.

Yes. Okay that they're saved by their works They're they're saved by hearing believing

Repenting confessing baptizing. Okay. Those are all things we do then you're not saved by god

You're ultimately saved by yourself hear me out hear me out. Okay, go ahead.

All right, because even though god Does the work at the time do this? Yeah, i'm saying i'm saying that you disagree i'm admitting that but the thing is is that what we see is that God did the work at the cross

You're saying that god did the work in your baptism That that's when the sins were forgiven not what christ did on the cross, but in your baptism

So here's the thing norm One of the things that I I teach people is that there's only two religions in the world

Okay, there's man -made religion divine religion. How do we know man -made religion? It's very simple

Okay, every single man -made religion adds human effort somehow to getting right with god and when you say works

Even if god what jesus did on the cross wasn't sufficient Right. I mean could god save you with what he did at the cross without your baptism.

Let me ask you that Uh, could he Well, you know i'm not going to speculate on what god could have done.

Okay, did he did he see no, okay So ultimately you're not saved without your work uh

Yeah, I would agree with that but I would say it differently you can't be saved without faithful obedience to the gospel that's sanctification

That that's that's sanctification when you're saved you're sanctified when you're saved you're justified So ultimately norm you're you're trusting in your salvation for what you did, correct ultimately

Did you say that backwards or i'm trusting in what I did for my salvation I think is is that maybe what you meant to Say so so i'm saying in a different way.

So What if christ's death on the cross? Was was not sufficient. It requires.

I never said that and I wouldn't say that and it's you know, extremely Offensive to attribute that to me.

Okay So you're saying that that you that christ's death was sufficient Right, so it's all that not only sufficient but the only thing that could be done for myself

We don't need baptism then because it's the only thing Is it is it the only thing or is it not do you need to be baptized or not?

Because if you need to be baptized, it's not sufficient I've It it is true that you are an extremely skilled debater and you're good at tying, you know things around so Uh, they get pretty twisted up and and you're very skilled at it.

You are you're very skilled at it. Okay So this is this is what

I have been consistently saying. I've not been inconsistent in anything I've said this is what i've been consistently

Saying that the gospel is the death burial and resurrection of christ on the cross for my sins

That's the gospel paul said that we obey the gospel. We obey that form of doctrine delivered to us we obey the gospel when we

Uh are are baptized into christ for the remission of our sins so that we can be raised to walk with him in newness of life

And that's romans chapter six. Okay, so so that again didn't answer it was it what you said is fine

Just doesn't answer the question I'll ask it again. Okay, please do Was christ so you're saying christ death on the cross was sufficient, right?

Absolutely. 100. What do you mean by sufficient? I mean that christ Sacrifice on the cross is uh, what was necessary to pay the price for my sins was it all that's necessary or just partially

What's it mean? Yeah, we're we're saved in christ, of course it is uh, uh,

The the sacrifice of christ by which we're saved is it is it all

I mean, how many times do you want me to say the same thing? Yes. Well, you know, yes The sacrifice of christ is what was necessary for the

I mean, uh, uh, The wages of sin is death, but the gift of god is eternal life in christ. Jesus our lord.

So christ chapter six in verse 23 So so christ death is sufficient means that's all that's necessary.

Meaning. There's nothing else necessary. Is that what you're saying? Um, I I see I I can't agree with it the way that you're saying it because you're not

I mean you're saying it I'm, just defining. I'm, just defining what sufficient means if it's sufficient sufficient means that what christ did on the cross 100 completely

Is what was necessary? For me to be forgiven of my sins that's not the same thing as saying that The the new testament then doesn't describe or define or you know, if you want to use dictate

I I you know, I don't know uh how to Uh come into contact with that sacrifice because because based on on what you're saying you would have to be a universalist

How because if it was only the death of christ on the cross without any response on my part

That that Any response on my part is somehow adding to what christ did on the cross

Well, then you would have to say that everybody is just automatically saved by what christ did on the cross

There's nothing they can or or you know, even should try to do to respond

To christ's sacrifice for their sins. There's and and and that is not true. Yeah, that's a fallacy of the excluded middle

There's a third option that christ god himself is the one who does that work So he not only dies on the cross making that the only thing that's necessary It's the sufficient thing and then he's the one that brings us to repentance.

That's the difference We okay So by by your by your definition you would have to then say that the death of christ on the cross was not sufficient

Because then there is this other thing and that's what you're trying to get me to do You're trying to get me to say that there's these other things

So then you turn around and say well, then the death of christ on the cross is not sufficient Okay, what other thing am I saying?

I I know exactly, you know, it's not eternal Of course, okay.

So at the cross when christ died for my sin at the cross.

Yes In god's eternal mind. I was saved then Not when

I believed Not when I was baptized. Well, I don't I I mean That would require me to agree that you are a saved person and and so well, that's

I would say I would say For a saved person did did god know from eternity?

That in 1996, I would obey the gospel and be saved Yes, of course god knew that but that doesn't mean he made me do it

I I had to make the choice to respond to the gospel of christ that foreknowledge does not equate to to uh,

A force I guess you know a lot of things you're saying there that are not what i'm saying As usual we've been seeing.

Yeah, I know Of course the whole thing is sufficiency if it's sufficient then nothing else is required.

That's what sufficiency means But then you added something. No, I didn't. Okay. All right I'm, what i'm saying is that when god did it he did it at the cross i'm consistent with the text

I'm, not saying I did anything You're saying we do something which says if we have to do something and you say we do it in time

You said that that our sins are forgiven at our baptism. So if if you believe that you are a saved person

On what basis are you a saved person? Uh based on on what christ did at the cross

So you didn't have to respond to that in any way it just autumn it just automatically happened

No, no The holy spirit fell out of the sky on you one day and now all of a sudden you're saved

No, I can't respond without god doing son. So so let me be very clear with this God works through the human to do exactly as god intends in this way.

So god does the work not me Do I do I respond in a human sense?

We could say yes But that's not how god works. Okay Well, then

I mean then we get back to universalism, right because God is god is not a respecter of persons you agree.

I mean god is i'm quote i'm quoting the tech God is not a respecter of persons But if god arbitrarily picked out some to be saved and not others well, then for those others, it's not their fault

They're lost. It's god's fault Those that are saved, you know, it's because god, you know, like like them better than the others

This is another red herring that you're doing and I know because i'm asking you about the efficiency sufficiency

Because yes, the death of christ on the cross was all sufficient for my sins. Absolutely Nothing else is needed or required other than the death of christ

Uh, i'm gonna say based on my understanding of scripture Yes, that's true. Not not based on your understanding of what you mean by that But but yes,

I can say that's true based on a correct understanding All right, let me let me say it again because I want to make sure

I understand so you're saying That the death of christ on the cross

Is the only thing Necessary for someone to be right with god

To be regenerated to be justified you want to say saved i'm using different words. So it's clear. So you're saying the only thing the only thing necessary is

Christ's work on the cross Yes or no Uh, yes through the response to that sacrifice.

Yes So the answer is no no, so the answer is no That's what I said before you that you're you're wanting me to add something which you yourself

Added something And and then you know, you want me to add something so that you can say okay So so the death of christ on the cross isn't sufficient

Because you you said baptism. That's not baptism is not a response. That's a work. That's something you do

In fact, you added five things that we do We hear we believe we repent we can we confess and we were baptized.

Those are five Going through that just going through that list Of things that I gave with scriptural references for each one

Going through that at what point in that do you disagree? Do you have to hear the word of god faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of god

Do you agree with that or not? Okay Okay i'm not going to go off on the on the the the

Rabbit trail again, I know You're doing it because you're stuck and you don't want to answer and I understand that's exactly why people do red herrings

Yeah, so what I asked was at what point in those things that I that I cited from scripture

Do you disagree with me? Do do you say okay? Well now you've gone off into something

The point one i'm hearing the scriptures or is it you know at baptism Well, the the question that I I keep asking is is the work of christ sufficient?

And yes, and you say yes, but then you say but we must be baptized Then it's not sufficient then the work that jesus did

Baptism is the response of faith to the sacrifice of christ. And yes, I have to have to have let me ask this

Let me ask it this way then does baptism occur after we're regenerate another word no, so we're not

When we were That's when we are regenerated. It's the walking of regeneration and that's a work that we do, right?

Uh if yeah Okay, I don't have any problem calling it a work because I understand, you know, the biblical

The the biblical text concerning works So so we have so what we have is we have christ death

Yes, you're saying that's all that we need. That's all that's necessary But we're not actually saved until we do a work called baptism

We have to have the response of faith to the sacrifice of christ And and that's what makes the difference between saved people and lost people is that response of faith paul calls it.

Uh, uh Obedience to the faith in romans chapter 1 and verse 5 and he begins romans and ends romans with the exact same phrase

Obedience to the faith. All right. So every everything in romans is is sandwiched between those two statements

Roman chapter 1 and verse 5 obedience to the faith romans chapter 16, I believe verse 27 obedience 27 or 28 obedience to the faith so Let me ask you a question

According to what you're saying those verses talking about obedience shouldn't be there. Okay. So here's the question that that uh,

Different justin not justin here is asking. Um, if you died Before you were baptized

Where would you spend eternity? Yeah Inhale, so christ's death wasn't sufficient to save you.

You needed to be baptized, correct? You know the person who dies without being baptized into christ it's not because the sacrifice of christ wasn't sufficient

It's because their faith wasn't sufficient for them to have the response of faith to the gospel Do you understand what the word's sufficient not failing on christ's part?

Obviously, of course and the very idea is absurd and offensive. It's a failing on the person's faith in response to christ's sacrifice

Their their salvation all rests on their work Making that works salvation and and each time you say this

You're not you're like I know you're trying to find this wiggle room, but it's not sufficient the definition of sufficient

Means there's nothing else necessary But you're saying Is baptism necessary?

Okay Uh a little while ago you made the comment About the the all sufficiency of the sacrifice of christ on the cross is and I know that's the way you worded it

But it's what you said uh And and I even forget now what what you went on to say about, you know our response to that But but you did add a phrase about responding to the sacrifice

And that's why I said, okay. Well, how come you can add something to it and I can't And I even pointed out that you were going to do

I said it before you did it that you were going to Uh, uh wait for me to to say something

That I have to do to then say, okay. Well now you're adding to what's necessary You're adding to the sacrifice of christ.

You're saying that the sacrifice of christ wasn't sufficient Before you did it and and and you did it what human effort you're saying

I said there's human effort added What human effort am I adding? I I have to go back and and see it and and I have

So go back and listen, you'll hear I said I said this is a work god does in us

No, I mean, yeah, because that's how you got into the whole thing. Well, god's not a respecter of persons Okay. Okay.

So so the the whole thing that this is Which is an addition

Yeah, except it's it's just the thing is is that if the death of christ was sufficient as colossians 2 14 13 14 says

That that's all that's needed and it was done at the cross Then your baptism doesn't

Change this Okay, what that means is that when when you do that Okay, you're and I know you're going to hate this and find it offensive.

I'm not trying to but I care for your eternal soul As I know i'm not a person, huh?

So i'm not a safe person. Oh, no, not not from what you're saying tonight. No, I okay So you can render a judgment that i'm not a safe person

But if I render a judgment that you're not a safe person, i'm in a cult. Okay. Got it No, see now that's on that was never said never once said not once in fact when you said when

I my first question to you and will you call me a brother in christ you said You weren't sure you could and I thank you because i'm saying

We're gonna we seem to be on different ends and I appreciate that you we could be honest with one another and say We don't believe the other person's saved and we're going to try to convert them

That never never once did that make it saying that therefore you're in a cult you're assuming

Conversation, so you don't believe that. Oh, yeah, you're right. I'm extrapolating that extrapolating that from a previous conversation

You've asked me this at least six times in this episode and each time i've told you I don't know enough about what you believe

Yet, but yet you make that statement as an absolute statement Okay, you're doing this

To be honest the person who invited me on the show Uh, it was based on That he called me a cult and I defended

I defended myself So then i'm responsible for a different conversation. No, no, no,

I mean Like I said, maybe I kind of came in with some assumptions that I shouldn't have norm, but you've you know

In my own defense the person who invited me did call me a cult member or or a colleague

He never would answer whether i'm the evil cult leader or the gullible the gullible deceived You cannot use that for an excuse because you've asked me it several times and each time i've answered the same way

So so this is the thing you've you've you've taken a position where you're on a high horse and telling me how i'm not biblical

And i'm all these things and how i'm trying to twist and play games and i'm doing none of that But you are

You know, maybe you're maybe there's a log in your eye that you don't see and you're you're busy talking about the toothpick in mind

Maybe I don't know But the fact is is i've told you very clearly several times and you're ignoring what

I say You're not trying to listen to what i'm saying You you're you're getting sad and you think everything is some little little game.

This is not a game norm This is not some game that i'm trying to play to win a debate. This isn't a debate

You are a very skilled debater at at, you know, turning things around in your in your uh,

In line with your arguments absolutely and props. I mean you're good at it No What i'm trying to do is help you to see something that you're blind to that's what i'm trying to do

And i'm trying because the issue Harder than what you're doing right now The issue is that the difference between heaven and hell is the difference between the sufficiency of christ on the cross

Or the sufficiency of the cross plus works And when you add baptism to what christ did on the cross and say we are not saved without baptism you have added

To the gospel you have added to the sufficiency of christ saying what christ did is not sufficient and that's my concern for you

Do you realize how many and i'm sure you do? I mean you you're I I think you're a fairly versed person

Uh, so i'm sure you know how many? passages I can go to that explicitly state baptism

And and yet you want to discount baptism and say you know what it's it's either An outward kind of an inward faith something that comes after you're safe Even though you can't show me one example in the bible where someone is said to have been saved

Before they were baptized into christ not one as you know You know, I don't you'll probably say i'm jumping around to other passages.

Here's the thing norm You know what? You're ignoring humans chapter six in verse three and four if you want to put that on the screen Show me where newness of life is

It's probably time to wrap up here we're not discussing all the passages that we can both agree mention salvation in but you're saying i'm adding something to the cross and i'm not i'm just saying

Next okay. So so you're saying that the that you're believing that christ's death on the cross was all that we need

No baptism, nothing else, correct No, I don't know that would not be in harmony with scripture and as i've said before Yes christ did everything that was necessary for my for the remission of my sins on the cross

And for me to have that remission of my sins, I have to respond To the sacrifice norm.

Here's the thing and and here's the thing because what you end up seeing is that You're you want to just go to okay

If I can find a verse that's going to fit my my my point of view you're ignoring the passages that don't

You're reading into the passages baptism where it isn't And so i'm not going to sit here.

You're saying you're ignoring all the passages that that point this out No, i'm not what i'm doing is pointing out the ones that disagree

And prove that what you believe is false and if you have anything anything

That you put and say that is also necessary Then if that's necessary then christ's death on the cross was not sufficient.

You don't like to sit hear that one last thing before we close out Just justin peter's ministries that that yeah, i'd like there uh

Yes, that that is a true statement. Yes, I I I'm gonna read the statement. Let me read the statement.

Justin asked me to put this on um, he says, uh This is titled work salvation.

There you go So he believed so he believed in christ repented of his sin But had he been hit by a mac truck on his way to church to be baptized

He would have spent eternity in hell I mean The only exception that I would make to that is on the way to church.

Um, you know, whatever the uh accommodating pool of water was that I was on my way to uh

If if I got hit by a truck on my way there before I got baptized then yes, I would have died lost Okay, so you you need baptism

Plus what christ did on the cross? So you you said no you don't need that plus what jesus did on the cross

You do you do have to be baptized. You don't need to be baptized You have to be baptized to be saved and no that's not in addition to what christ did on the cross

It is no salvation It is the response of faith to what christ did on the cross

So there's no salvation outside of baptism and faith in christ. There's no salvation outside the church

Because the church is the place of the saved the church is the assembly of saints The lord i'm answering your question the lord

No, i'm not going to just say what you want me to say i'm going to answer your question If you'll let me answer your question, please

The lord adds you to his church at the point of your salvation The lord added to the church daily those that were being saved acts chapter 2 and verse 47

Okay, so the church is the assembly of saved people. The church is where christ puts saved people and so When you are baptized into christ, he puts you into his church

So no, you you're not saved in baptism. The church is the place of the saved baptism is how you get into the church

And I challenge you to find an statement and yes, i'm yeah, it's i'm sorry you you lost me i'm sorry, that's

I know I didn't ask the question. I didn't ask me so, uh, uh

You're going to say that I didn't answer your question, even though I did it just explicitly answer your question uh, what what um

Well, I lost my train of thought so let me let me close out, um Let me just close out with this um, first off norm,

I thank you for coming in it was a Longer show we actually did we were only going to do I did two shows.

We did two shows Those of you who love anthony time anthony time norm is when we go over two hours

Our other co -host always goes over two hours. I try not to Um, but I I thought the discussion was good and important and and helpful, uh, but nowhere near finished um but I I think that the issue is um,

I I believe norm that if if christ and and i'm just going to close out and you know have the final words here

If if christ death is not sufficient then someone is not Going to enter into heaven

Uh, because it is not by baptism. It is not by any human effort. It's not by works

It is by what christ and christ did alone when he died on the cross And it's no effort of ours.

We can't add or do anything. It's what god does in us That's what

I believe the gospel is and I know you disagree with it And that's why I say I i'm going to be praying for you and some people have been saying earlier uh,

I can't find it now, but uh, you know, I know brian simmons who's a member at you know from here from Uh on the youtube channel and he was saying please pray for excuse me, please pray for norm and and I hope everyone does

And norm, I I know you think you're going to heaven but i'm just gonna say

I know but that's not what scripture would say because you're you're you know, when you look at you know When we look at what colossian says it says that the death of christ was sufficient.

There's nothing else And we can't add baptism and and so it concerns me. You're you're you're a a nice guy

You seem to care for people and I appreciate that and I like the fact That we can have we could be very clear.

There's no trying to beat around the bush Okay, we can be very clear and up front and know that You know you saying that you don't think i'm going to heaven that's fine

Because I don't I now I don't think you're going to heaven right based on what you said I that's not a problem.

It's not a problem that you don't consider me a brother in christ, right? I said that at the very beginning because if you're believing what you know what you're saying

Then I don't I don't think you're a brother in christ. That doesn't mean we have to be enemies It it just means we have a concern for one another and and i'm concerned for your soul

And and I think you're concerned for my soul and i'm here And you know, so I hope that I I hope you'll consider coming back.

I hope we can we could set up Absolutely. I know I know that you know, i've been cutting justin off. He's he's had a ton of questions.

I know we had another pastor that Uh had was in the background and he he had questions And I I really

I wanted to get through some of my questions. I haven't even gotten through them Uh, but the biggest thing that I I see as a concern is the sufficiency of christ

And so I I would ask you to consider Uh, just to to to take a step back.

Just I want you to do this and and You know humble yourself and say okay, let me hear what it was.

Andrew was actually saying try to argue my point Okay And because you've tried that a couple times tonight and you argued a point

I don't hold to and so I want you as Uh such as saying that because I say that you're not saved you're in a cult.

I never said anything near that okay, I made an assumption because of My invitation to the to the show.

It wasn't the only one my apologies Yeah, I mean I I want you to to take a step back and try to try to understand what i'm actually saying

Not what you think i'm saying or how you think others have said it that you're trying to argue I am not here debating you i'm really not

Okay, i'm here because i'm concerned for your soul I mean, yes, you heard a change in in some of my once you started saying baptism saves

Yeah, you heard a change in in the in my concern for you I admit that because now

I am concerned for you when you say that and wanted to dig in deep And that that becomes a thing but why just baptism

I mean How come how come how come you don't include? The the first four things

I said because baptism isn't you know, the only thing you have to do in response to the gospel

I I went through You know Based on the examples in the books of in the book of acts based on those examples when you put those examples together

There's you know very specific things they did and I I laid all of those out But it's only baptism that you're having an issue.

No For a very simple reason If you hear the word of god, are you saved? No If you hear the word of god and believe are you saved?

No, if you hear the word of god believe and repent of your sins. Are you saved? No, if you hear the word of god believe repent of your sins and confess.

Are you saved? No Okay. Now, you know why it's baptism Well go on and ask me about baptism because that that's the thing that's if If you're baptized into christ to come into contact with his atoning blood for the remission of your sins, are you saved?

Yes, absolutely. That's what the bible teaches so so you know the thing the thing, uh that So isn't it interesting that that you get right to the point where the bible explicitly states in two different places this act

Puts you into christ and that's the one you want to cut off Okay, that's because I I said we're gonna end the show and I I I didn't mute you or put you in the backstage

Wanting to say things to close out the show Okay, you you you you keep asking questions

We can bring that up next time next time. We'll see you and we'll come back on and have conversation No, you're ignoring the explicit ones that don't agree with your your argument

I'd be happy to deal with them because I I think you'd my my guess is you don't understand baptism in the first century

That's my guess we'll see um So, you know the the point is folks what

I think you ended up seeing here is you you get to see What happens when someone looks at scripture and it doesn't support something that they want the scripture to say

They they start to interpret Read in something from other parts of the scripture or other scriptures altogether and read that in instead of reading the immediate text

Uh, but the the key thing the key takeaway for for folks to to understand is if christ death on the cross

Is not the only thing To to be right with god Then it's not sufficient

And so I I I want folks to you know to see to to see how the discussion has gone

Um so you can you can learn from this be praying for norm Uh, I I I do hope that you'll come back.

I hope that uh, Josiah can talk with you. I I know he he really wanted to to have a discussion with you

Uh, same with justin who I cut off and you do not understand how much restraint it is for for justin to to Uh, keep quiet.

I I know he but uh So folks we went like four hours

Uh, we we will next next week just so you guys know next week Uh, justin peters will be on Uh, we will be we're going to discuss, um,

Basically, I think it was an atheist that put this video out, but faith healers tricks exposed

Okay Uh, so this is from a darren brown and so justin's going to come on Uh, we're gonna we're going to discuss that so that'll be next week the week after Um, you know justin if you want,

I will not be here february 3rd But if you and norm want to have a discussion

Um if norm's up for that, you know, uh, You know norm, let us know if you're up for that and maybe the two you guys could have the discussion

I wouldn't let you have Okay I'm, i'm not trying to hide anything, you know in a corner like paul said, you know,

I All count out there for everybody to hear it. So, uh, yeah, that's great. I appreciate it