March 27, 2018 Show with Sam Frost on “A Reformed Christian Evaluates Alcoholics Anonymous & the Addiction Recovery Movements”

The Program Opens With Scripture and the Theme of Iron Sharpening Iron

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us. Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now here's our host.

Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday.

On this 27th day of March 2018. I'm delighted to have back on the program today Sam Frost otherwise known as Samuel M frost. He is the author of why I left full preterism, which is the topic that we had Discussed the last time Sam was on the program.

Alcohol Recovery, Full Preterism, and the Day's Main Topic

But today we are going to be addressing his book God as Bill Wilson understood him aka Christian evaluation of alcoholics anonymous and the addiction recovery movements. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.

Sam Frost. I'm delighted to have you back on and I'm also delighted that we received the Agreement or the acceptance of my invitation to Don Preston who is well known globally as a full preterist. He is going to be debating Sam Frost at some point in the near future.

Hopefully.

But we did get an official acceptance of this invitation and we are going to be planning in Sometime within the next couple of months God willing to have a two-day debate on full preterism those of us who are not full preterist Typically would call it hyper preterism.

And there are many different labels for this especially used by those who are full preterist themselves, but That's going to be an exciting event two-day event and we hope that you stay tuned for updates in the future.

As to when exactly this two-day debate will be God willing. But today we are going to be addressing as I said a Christian evaluation of alcoholics anonymous and the addiction recovery movements. Sam if you could tell us first of all something about your own life.

And what led you to become so knowledgeable of? alcoholics anonymous and you eventually actually had such knowledge and had such a passion to investigate this this topic deeper that you eventually compiled the data necessary to write a book on it and You eventually going back to your own An enslavement to alcohol addiction to it.

However, you want to phrase it you eventually by the mercy and grace and love Of God you were delivered from that. Why I rejoice with you as Being one myself who was rescued from this sin this Deadly and damning sin of drunkenness habitual Unrepentant drunkenness.

I was rescued by the grace of God from that and this this is why this program is so near and dear to my heart the subject matter is because I have such empathy with those battling this the serious problem and I cannot stop singing the praises of Hebron colony ministries in Boone Boone North Carolina.

Which is where I admitted myself. For I believe it was a 13-week program at the time and may still be and it is just a wonderful place and The Lord used it mightily in my own life and.

And.

If anybody needs any more information about that They can email me if they want to know more about Hebron colony ministries, which is basically a men's discipleship Ministry and they have a sister Ministry out in Santee South Carolina.

That is a facility for women. But the Hebron colony and ministry the thing that's interesting about it is that the the actual issue of alcohol or drugs or Addiction to those things was something that was really not a primary area of focus.

It was discipleship and It was it was evangelism to those there. Because there were many lost people there and they were being evangelized to repent and embrace the atoning death of Christ.

And.

Those who were Christians there who had fallen back into this sin Were being called to repent and be restored and I was in the latter category and interestingly enough I was only even though the ministry began in the earlier part of the the 1900s in the 1940s after World War two a Presbyterian minister saw GIs coming back from World War two and many of them multitudes of them were Drunks when they came back home and this Presbyterian pastor set up this ministry and I believe it is the longest ongoing or the oldest ongoing men's rehabilitation ministry for Drug and alcohol addiction in the United States.

It's also absolutely free of charge. And only requires a $300 deposit for pharmaceutical needs that you may require If you get sick or what have you but if you don't use that $300 while you're there or if they don't use it for your pharmaceutical needs they return it so it's just an amazing ministry and I cannot as I said stop singing the praises about it, but Did before we go into the history of a a?

Alcoholics Anonymous. Because one of the reasons why we are discussing it is that there have been many crucial serious changes for the worse in alcohol in alcoholics anonymous not to say that the The organization even began without its problems, but it's just become a lot worse than than the design That was intended by the founders.

But before we go into that were you at all helped by a a because even if something is seriously flawed the Lord could use it to bring repentance and restoration into somebody's life, I mean Even in the lives of people who are seriously addicted to substances of one kind or another you know, you can even join a cult and It will quote-quote work on many occasions in that area of someone's life.

Somebody could become a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness or a Muslim even and even when we hear about the history of Malcolm X when he Became a member of the Nation of Islam and you know, he gave up all intoxicating substances and so on so Things can work even if they are riddled with error.

So what what did you ever? Go to these meetings and did were they of value to you? Yeah, so you were going to me? Well, oh, yeah. Yeah, and.

And.

You were talking about the condemnation that you have in some circles towards people battling this sin and I have to have to Continually remind everybody that it is a sin because it's not treated that way in the vast majority of cases in regard to secular society and even within some of Christendom.

But you also have Unfortunately in our own circles Theologically reformed Churches and denominations some of them. I'm not broad brushing them by any stretch of the imagination Because my own church rightly put me under church discipline When I was involved in this sin and was not repenting of it.

And if it were if it were not for that discipline, I might be dead Because of the the level but the very serious level of drinking that I was doing. But you have many From my own interaction with Christians throughout the last a couple of decades I was saved in 1980 and 1985 I'm sorry somewhere around there, maybe 84.

But.

There are.

Reformed.

Churches and even pastors that wink at this. They are so caught up. They are so caught up in.

In.

Wearing this liberty of the freedom to imbibe that they That they wear it as a badge of honor and it escalates into Winking at the sin of drunkenness even though the scriptures warned that this is among other sins that sends people to hell.

Which is quite strange. So you I find it interesting that you said that earlier that you were finding Difficult to find resources from reformed Resources resources from reformers or Your material from reform resources because because it seems that reform people by and large Many of them are so busy Standing up for their right to drink and and proudly waving the flag of their Liberty.

That they they don't want to really get mixed up in this stuff with the alcohol recovery until members of their churches become scandalously involved in these sins and perhaps they are beating their wives or cheating on their wives or they're Losing they're losing their jobs and you know, they're just becoming a public nuisance then the church might say, okay.

But am I am I exaggerating here. Right, I I would say that I am a teetotaler because I don't drink alcohol, but I don't. I do not believe it. Yeah, I do not. Right, right. Right. Yeah, I think you have to clarify that.

Yeah, because even though I Even though I believe I cannot drink alcohol. I cannot biblically Lay a guilt trip on people who responsibly Enjoy the moderate consumption of alcohol. Yeah, I'm right on the same page with you.

I can't remember ever having just two beers or two glasses of wine. Right. Well, we have to go to a. Well, we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I could obviously See clearly how this subject more than most might lend itself to people wanting to write in anonymously just as we Offered our listeners yesterday when we had Chris croats of overcome a Ministry that he co-founded to help people Prevent and overcome addiction to pornography.

We are offering that same Opportunity for people today to to write in anonymously as we always do. If the question involves a personal and private matter, that's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a RN z en a gmail .com.

Don't go away. We'll be right back with Sam Frost and More of our discussion on a Christian evaluation of Alcoholics Anonymous and the addiction recovery movements right after these messages. So don't go away.

The Foundation of Alcoholics Anonymous and Bill Wilson's Theology

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We are now back to our discussion with Sam Frost an author who has Probably been most well known for His connection formally with hyperpreterism and he wrote a book called why I left full preterism and he's going to be involved At some point God willing in the near future with a he's going to be involved in a debate right here on iron sharpens iron radio with Don Preston who is a full preterist and We'll be keeping you updated on that.

But today we are discussing his book God as Bill Wilson understood him and For the sake of those who have no idea who Bill Wilson is we are discussing a Christian evaluation of Alcoholics Anonymous and the addiction recovery movements and Tell us if you could if you would I should say I know you can but if you wanted to Sam tell us about Bill Wilson and the foundation of Alcoholics Anonymous and What this organization was really based on?

And then we will have you basically discuss how it devolved in what it is today and I know that you already said that Alcoholics Anonymous is not a monolith because you have different meetings that may have May be close to radically different approaches.

I don't know if they would have Clearly a radically different approach, but but perhaps you could address that more Accurately than I can tell us about the foundation of this Organization, so I'm assuming I'm assuming that this is not to be confused With the Oxford movement within Anglicanism, which is a an attempt of Anglicans to be more in alignment with Roman Catholicism.

This is something St. George's Episcopal Church, which is where my friend Jacob. Yeah, my friend Jacob Smith is the rector there and today Just it returned to its biblical roots in the 19th century because it began as a.

Low church.

Thoroughly Calvinistic Episcopal Church and Jacob Smith who fits that description to a tea has been used of God as the rector there to to bring that church back to its roots because there was a period of time when there was apostasy there and a very Liberal minister tore the Ten Commandments and the Apostles Creed off of the wall and threw them in the garbage and just a horrible thing going on.

But anyway, that is a historic church. In fact was involved on the fundamentalist side during the Fundamentalist modernist controversy. In fact, we're gonna we're gonna have you pick up. We're gonna have you pick up on that very point when we return from our Midway break.

Our Midway break is our Midway break is longer than most because of the requirements of Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida. So, please be patient write down the information that you hear from our advertisers and also take this time to write questions.

The Midshow Break and the Contrast Between Recovery Culture and Church Discipline

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Whether it's a special event you're having We would love to hear from you Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line because we certainly do need those advertising dollars. Now we are finally back with our guest Sam Frost Author of why I left full preterism and the book that we are discussing today.

God as Bill Wilson understood him.

A.

Ka a Christian evaluation of alcoholics anonymous and the addiction recovery movements. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and There are a number of you already waiting to have your questions asked and answered and we will get to as many of you as.

Possible.

The Devolution of Recovery Meetings and the Limits of Anonymous Spirituality

But we do want Our guest Sam Frost to continue a little bit more with more details on the foundation of this movement when we went to the break. As you may recall Sam you were talking about how? Bill Wilson went from being what might be described as deism where basically God is distant and a non personal Deity, he winds up the universe like a clock and just watches it Go about its natural course without Interacting personally with it.

He became more of an evangelical who believes in a personal relationship with a personal God. And if you could continue right where you left off, but what did you say? His first name was? What did you?

Can you spell the first name. I'm not. I'm not making out the first name. Can you spell it? Oh be a be as in boy. I CK. Oh, okay. Dick be okay. I guess this is prior to what you were saying before you were talking before about him being a deist becoming an Evangelical or something similar.

So this is prior to that. Yes, yes as a reformed Christian such as yourself. It's interesting how I have always thought this was somewhat strange and I think it might have something to Do in fact, I'm pretty certain it has something to do with the Arminian ism or semi Pelagian ism of Bill Wilson.