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March 27, 2018:
Sam Frost, author of “Why I Left Full Preterism” & “God, As Bill Wilson Understood Him”, who will address:
“A REFORMED CHRISTIAN Evaluates ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS & the ADDICTION RECOVERY Movements”
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Chris.
Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida. And the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Tuesday.
On this 27th day of March 2018. I'm delighted to have back on the program today Sam Frost otherwise known as Samuel M frost. He is the author of why I left full preterism, which is the topic that we had Discussed the last time Sam was on the program.
But today we are going to be addressing his book God as Bill Wilson understood him aka Christian evaluation of alcoholics anonymous and the addiction recovery movements. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron radio.
Sam Frost. I'm delighted to have you back on and I'm also delighted that we received the Agreement or the acceptance of my invitation to Don Preston who is well known globally as a full preterist. He is going to be debating Sam Frost at some point in the near future.
Hopefully.
But we did get an official acceptance of this invitation and we are going to be planning in Sometime within the next couple of months God willing to have a two-day debate on full preterism those of us who are not full preterist Typically would call it hyper preterism.
And there are many different labels for this especially used by those who are full preterist themselves, but That's going to be an exciting event two-day event and we hope that you stay tuned for updates in the future.
As to when exactly this two-day debate will be God willing. But today we are going to be addressing as I said a Christian evaluation of alcoholics anonymous and the addiction recovery movements. Sam if you could tell us first of all something about your own life.
And what led you to become so knowledgeable of? alcoholics anonymous and you eventually actually had such knowledge and had such a passion to investigate this this topic deeper that you eventually compiled the data necessary to write a book on it and You eventually going back to your own An enslavement to alcohol addiction to it.
However, you want to phrase it you eventually by the mercy and grace and love Of God you were delivered from that. Why I rejoice with you as Being one myself who was rescued from this sin this Deadly and damning sin of drunkenness habitual Unrepentant drunkenness.
I was rescued by the grace of God from that and this this is why this program is so near and dear to my heart the subject matter is because I have such empathy with those battling this the serious problem and I cannot stop singing the praises of Hebron colony ministries in Boone Boone North Carolina.
Which is where I admitted myself. For I believe it was a 13-week program at the time and may still be and it is just a wonderful place and The Lord used it mightily in my own life and.
And.
If anybody needs any more information about that They can email me if they want to know more about Hebron colony ministries, which is basically a men's discipleship Ministry and they have a sister Ministry out in Santee South Carolina.
That is a facility for women. But the Hebron colony and ministry the thing that's interesting about it is that the the actual issue of alcohol or drugs or Addiction to those things was something that was really not a primary area of focus.
It was discipleship and It was it was evangelism to those there. Because there were many lost people there and they were being evangelized to repent and embrace the atoning death of Christ.
Those who were Christians there who had fallen back into this sin Were being called to repent and be restored and I was in the latter category and interestingly enough I was only even though the ministry began in the earlier part of the the 1900s in the 1940s after World War two a Presbyterian minister saw GIs coming back from World War two and many of them multitudes of them were Drunks when they came back home and this Presbyterian pastor set up this ministry and I believe it is the longest ongoing or the oldest ongoing men's rehabilitation ministry for Drug and alcohol addiction in the United States.
It's also absolutely free of charge. And only requires a $300 deposit for pharmaceutical needs that you may require If you get sick or what have you but if you don't use that $300 while you're there or if they don't use it for your pharmaceutical needs they return it so it's just an amazing ministry and I cannot as I said stop singing the praises about it, but Did before we go into the history of a a?
Alcoholics Anonymous. Because one of the reasons why we are discussing it is that there have been many crucial serious changes for the worse in alcohol in alcoholics anonymous not to say that the The organization even began without its problems, but it's just become a lot worse than than the design That was intended by the founders.
But before we go into that were you at all helped by a a because even if something is seriously flawed the Lord could use it to bring repentance and restoration into somebody's life, I mean Even in the lives of people who are seriously addicted to substances of one kind or another you know, you can even join a cult and It will quote-quote work on many occasions in that area of someone's life.
Somebody could become a Mormon or Jehovah's Witness or a Muslim even and even when we hear about the history of Malcolm X when he Became a member of the Nation of Islam and you know, he gave up all intoxicating substances and so on so Things can work even if they are riddled with error.
So what what did you ever? Go to these meetings and did were they of value to you? Yeah, so you were going to me? Well, oh, yeah. Yeah, and.
You were talking about the condemnation that you have in some circles towards people battling this sin and I have to have to Continually remind everybody that it is a sin because it's not treated that way in the vast majority of cases in regard to secular society and even within some of Christendom.
But you also have Unfortunately in our own circles Theologically reformed Churches and denominations some of them. I'm not broad brushing them by any stretch of the imagination Because my own church rightly put me under church discipline When I was involved in this sin and was not repenting of it.
And if it were if it were not for that discipline, I might be dead Because of the the level but the very serious level of drinking that I was doing. But you have many From my own interaction with Christians throughout the last a couple of decades I was saved in 1980 and 1985 I'm sorry somewhere around there, maybe 84.
But.
There are.
Reformed.
Churches and even pastors that wink at this. They are so caught up. They are so caught up in.
In.
Wearing this liberty of the freedom to imbibe that they That they wear it as a badge of honor and it escalates into Winking at the sin of drunkenness even though the scriptures warned that this is among other sins that sends people to hell.
Which is quite strange. So you I find it interesting that you said that earlier that you were finding Difficult to find resources from reformed Resources resources from reformers or Your material from reform resources because because it seems that reform people by and large Many of them are so busy Standing up for their right to drink and and proudly waving the flag of their Liberty.
That they they don't want to really get mixed up in this stuff with the alcohol recovery until members of their churches become scandalously involved in these sins and perhaps they are beating their wives or cheating on their wives or they're Losing they're losing their jobs and you know, they're just becoming a public nuisance then the church might say, okay.
But am I am I exaggerating here. Right, I I would say that I am a teetotaler because I don't drink alcohol, but I don't. I do not believe it. Yeah, I do not. Right, right. Right. Yeah, I think you have to clarify that.
Yeah, because even though I Even though I believe I cannot drink alcohol. I cannot biblically Lay a guilt trip on people who responsibly Enjoy the moderate consumption of alcohol. Yeah, I'm right on the same page with you.
I can't remember ever having just two beers or two glasses of wine. Right. Well, we have to go to a. Well, we have to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I could obviously See clearly how this subject more than most might lend itself to people wanting to write in anonymously just as we Offered our listeners yesterday when we had Chris croats of overcome a Ministry that he co-founded to help people Prevent and overcome addiction to pornography.
We are offering that same Opportunity for people today to to write in anonymously as we always do. If the question involves a personal and private matter, that's Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a RN z en a gmail .com.
Don't go away. We'll be right back with Sam Frost and More of our discussion on a Christian evaluation of Alcoholics Anonymous and the addiction recovery movements right after these messages. So don't go away.
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We are now back to our discussion with Sam Frost an author who has Probably been most well known for His connection formally with hyperpreterism and he wrote a book called why I left full preterism and he's going to be involved At some point God willing in the near future with a he's going to be involved in a debate right here on iron sharpens iron radio with Don Preston who is a full preterist and We'll be keeping you updated on that.
But today we are discussing his book God as Bill Wilson understood him and For the sake of those who have no idea who Bill Wilson is we are discussing a Christian evaluation of Alcoholics Anonymous and the addiction recovery movements and Tell us if you could if you would I should say I know you can but if you wanted to Sam tell us about Bill Wilson and the foundation of Alcoholics Anonymous and What this organization was really based on?
And then we will have you basically discuss how it devolved in what it is today and I know that you already said that Alcoholics Anonymous is not a monolith because you have different meetings that may have May be close to radically different approaches.
I don't know if they would have Clearly a radically different approach, but but perhaps you could address that more Accurately than I can tell us about the foundation of this Organization, so I'm assuming I'm assuming that this is not to be confused With the Oxford movement within Anglicanism, which is a an attempt of Anglicans to be more in alignment with Roman Catholicism.
This is something St. George's Episcopal Church, which is where my friend Jacob. Yeah, my friend Jacob Smith is the rector there and today Just it returned to its biblical roots in the 19th century because it began as a.
Low church.
Thoroughly Calvinistic Episcopal Church and Jacob Smith who fits that description to a tea has been used of God as the rector there to to bring that church back to its roots because there was a period of time when there was apostasy there and a very Liberal minister tore the Ten Commandments and the Apostles Creed off of the wall and threw them in the garbage and just a horrible thing going on.
But anyway, that is a historic church. In fact was involved on the fundamentalist side during the Fundamentalist modernist controversy. In fact, we're gonna we're gonna have you pick up. We're gonna have you pick up on that very point when we return from our Midway break.
Our Midway break is our Midway break is longer than most because of the requirements of Grace Life Radio 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida. So, please be patient write down the information that you hear from our advertisers and also take this time to write questions.
For our guests. Sam Frost and send them to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Tired of box store Christianity of doing church in a warehouse with all the trappings of a rock concert.
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I just have a couple of more important announcements to make. First of all, the Alliance of confessing evangelicals is having the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology again. That's going to be held at two different locations neither of which are in Philadelphia.
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That is the Location that I intend to go To the conference where I intend to go to the conference.
The theme this year is the spirit of the age and age of the spirit. The speakers include Daniel Aiken Richard Gaffin Daniel Hyde Conrad and Bayway that I believe the most powerful preacher alive on the planet Earth today pastor of Kibwata Baptist Church in Lusaka Zambia Africa Richard Phillips Jonathan master David Murray Scott Oliphant and.
If you would like to register go to Alliance net org Alliance net org and click on the Philadelphia Conference on Reform Theology. The spirit of the age and the age of the spirit is the theme and Please tell the folks at the Alliance of confessing evangelicals that you heard about these events from Chris Arns and an iron sharpens iron radio.
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Whether it's a special event you're having We would love to hear from you Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line because we certainly do need those advertising dollars. Now we are finally back with our guest Sam Frost Author of why I left full preterism and the book that we are discussing today.
God as Bill Wilson understood him.
A.
Ka a Christian evaluation of alcoholics anonymous and the addiction recovery movements. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com and There are a number of you already waiting to have your questions asked and answered and we will get to as many of you as.
Possible.
But we do want Our guest Sam Frost to continue a little bit more with more details on the foundation of this movement when we went to the break. As you may recall Sam you were talking about how? Bill Wilson went from being what might be described as deism where basically God is distant and a non personal Deity, he winds up the universe like a clock and just watches it Go about its natural course without Interacting personally with it.
He became more of an evangelical who believes in a personal relationship with a personal God. And if you could continue right where you left off, but what did you say? His first name was? What did you?
Can you spell the first name. I'm not. I'm not making out the first name. Can you spell it? Oh be a be as in boy. I CK. Oh, okay. Dick be okay. I guess this is prior to what you were saying before you were talking before about him being a deist becoming an Evangelical or something similar.
So this is prior to that. Yes, yes as a reformed Christian such as yourself. It's interesting how I have always thought this was somewhat strange and I think it might have something to Do in fact, I'm pretty certain it has something to do with the Arminian ism or semi Pelagian ism of Bill Wilson.
Because here you have the first Three steps we admitted we were powerless over alcohol their lives had to become unchangeable on that our lives Had become unmanageable. We came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity and then the third step is made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as We understood him.
How can you be an insane person? Who needs to be restored to sanity and yet you're making a decision to turn to a God? That you understand or God as you understand him if you're insane. You're not going to be choosing the God of the Bible or the real God if you follow what I'm saying.
It's really it's out of it's out of order here. It doesn't make sense but. But what we have to real because we're running out of time already and we have a line of listeners asking questions. How has this really devolved in our day and age.
To give you an example. I checked into before I went to Hebron Colony Ministries. Because they did not have a bed available for me immediately. I checked myself into st. Charles Hospital on Long Island who had who has a drug and alcohol rehabilitation wing and so I was there until a bed opened up at Hebron Colony and.
We had a counselor a psychologist assigned to us. They were like several groups and each group was assigned a particular psychologist and this psychologist used to butt heads with me she she did she my Christianity made her very uncomfortable and She says to me one day and one of our rap groups or whatever you want to call it our open discussion groups.
She says well, what why do you dislike a a so much and I said well as a Christian it is blasphemous to say that you can choose any God that you wish to serve. Or any higher power and you can even invent this higher power and I said picking a chair for instance To be your higher power is not only blasphemous as a Christian.
But it is it is insane and She said to me all people don't pick chairs as their higher power. It has to be something that's living. She says she says it has to be something like a tree. Right. So I said, okay, so somebody picks a higher power to be a tree.
What happens when you cut the tree down and make a chair out of it? And she she didn't like that at all. But tell us about this devolution if you will de evolution of what what began as an imperfect thing to begin with but Even even became more distorted and unbiblical and even blasphemous in regard to this higher power Aspect.
Oh, yes. Yes, there there was an NA group meeting in the basement of the church where I was once a member in New York and My pastor one of my pastors said hey can you check out this NA meeting and just give us a report on how you think it's being conducted and if you're comfortable with It because they knew my own former addictions and so on and So I went to the NA meeting and I was loaded for bear with Jay Adams tracks on addiction and And everybody there well not everybody but a lot of people there were giving their methodology they were they were reciting their methodology for See stopping their their urges to use drugs in its tracks and They were very much most of them were very spiritual.
They were false spirituality. But they were spiritual and one and one guy said that he Repeated the Hail Mary over and over and over again into the urge went away and I could just remember hearing religious methodology that was going on and nobody was rebuked or censured or Whatever when I got up and I gave my Christian testimony And said that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life and no one come to the Father.
But through him and that hell is filled with sober people if you really want true freedom. Not only from addiction to substances that are deadly and damning. But also if you would like eternal life come speak with me later.
And by the way, I have these free booklets Written by Jay Adams about addiction. The guy who was running the meeting called me outside and said you can't do that. I said I can't do what you can't endorse Your specific religion I said were you kidding me nearly everybody in here was giving religious ways.
That they prevented themselves from going back to drugs. This was just another religious way but it is the only true way that of the bunch and He said hey, you know, I'm a Christian too I'm on the same page with you, but we can't do that in these meetings.
And I said, well, do you do know that you're a guest in my church's basement, right? I mean So unfortunately, I had to report back what happened to my pastors and they told the NA group to leave that they could no longer Return to have their meetings in our church if they were going to Prohibit the declaration of Jesus Christ in his gospel as the only way to true salvation.
They could not in good conscience, obviously Let them continue.
We.
Have to go to our final break and if anybody would like to join us on the air I'm sorry. Yes, there are. And when we return from our last break We're gonna go right to the questions. And by the way Gordy and mechanics bird your question if you've been listening has already been Answered by our guest Sam Frost about the Oxford group.
So if you have another question Send it to Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And if anybody else would like to get in line to ask a question Please do so now or forever. Hold your peace because we're running out of time.
Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris a are n ze n at gmail .com. Don't go away. God willing. We'll be right back after these final messages from our sponsors.
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For a visit to the pastor's study. We are now back to the final 20 minutes or so of our program with Sam Frost. We're talking about Alcoholics Anonymous, I forgot to mention to you before the break a Sam that you're that Eddie from Floral Park Sent in a question.
Okay, we I forwarded that to you actually because I wanted you I wanted you to be able to read it during the break and I forgot to tell you before the break, but anyway as Eddie in Floral Park asks as A Christian who is also a recovered alcoholic.
I have no problem identifying myself as an alcoholic. Especially based upon the manner by which it enables me to evangelize in recovery. Why do you believe Christian pastors have a problem with this saying you are not an alcoholic.
But a new creation when it is obvious that we cannot drink successfully just because we are born again. Interesting question. I myself though do not believe that it is required of a Christian in particular to walk around identifying themselves from us with a sin that they have repented of and that the Lord has delivered them from and I don't I mean are we to walk around saying Hi, I'm Bill and I'm an adulterer.
Hi. I'm Joe and I'm a thief. Hi, I'm Pete and I'm a murderer if those things have been repented of. But if you could respond right right right I appreciated that myself. Well, let me give you an example yesterday I had Chris croats on and he is a co-founder of a ministry called overcome that deals with Pornography addiction.
Is he to walk around saying hi, I'm Chris and I'm a porn addict, even though he has repented of this and Is no longer enslaved by it. When I have I have often said and even this week I Have said to people when?
Ordering food in a restaurant. Would you like a glass of wine with that and I and I have said Sometimes I'll just say no. Thank you, but On a couple on a couple of occasions. I said to the people Asking me this.
No, no. No, I had a very serious problem with that and I am thanking the Lord that I am no longer Imbibing in that and I have no interest in it. You know, I refer to it as my past history. Of course as as am I and my main problem with it is that a a Acts like it is a religious dogma when it comes to identifying yourself as an alcoholic.
Well, thank you Eddie. Thank you Eddie and can keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and spreading the word about it and finding out what's going on Floral Park and beyond we look forward to future questions from you.
We have Tony with an eye in Rock Hill, South Carolina and Tony says your guest seems to be Compartmentalizing the sin of drunkenness much as the homosexuals have successfully done with the sin of homosexuality meaning Special treatment he stated that it is a Phenomena or whatever you want to call it.
He said according to scripture It is sin and a particularly destructive sin and that's all according to his thinking I would have to say that liars and adulterers are also a phenomena as They are everywhere inside and outside the church.
How do you respond to Tony in Rock Hill, South Carolina's comments?
Right.
And I'm not really I'm not really sure what she meant by you saying that that alcoholics or drug addicts need special treatment, I mean Sins are different sins are different from one another and we we have to respond to them sometimes in a unique way.
Not that we ever diminish the damning nature of them but we like for instance a Person who deals with lust Who battles lust and in an overwhelming way who has falls into sin in that area? They are going to be Dealt with and should deal with themselves in unique ways like that might involve.
Yeah, they can't go to the beach anymore. They can't they can't watch certain TV programs. They can't go to certain movies just like an alcoholic might have Certain things that need to change in their lives that other sinners don't have to change for because of the uniqueness of the sin.
And what I can What what I can say. What I can say in empathy with Tony is that I agree that far too often sins like this do however become Discussed and identified even by professedly Bible-believing Christians in Clinical ways and they make a person more out to be the victim of his his ancestry or something rather than the fact that the person is a sinner who in spite of any Proclivity that they may have even from birth.
They are voluntarily Participating in something that is sinful if they drink to excess. I mean, I'm sorry We have Joey and cliff we have Joey and Clifton, New Jersey's who says I appreciate the delivery from alcoholism that you have Experienced and I thank God for that at the same time.
I think we need two clarifications. Number one. These the existence of desire for a drink is not what defines whether someone remains an alcoholic. So while your personal complete deliverance from the desire is wonderful It does not mean that others who have remaining temptation are not delivered if they have Repented of it.
They are being faithful. Number two. We must not use the language of I am an alcoholic if we have been delivered by Christ we must always use the language of Scripture as a reminder of 1st Corinthians chapter 6 verse 11 such were some of you and I think there's a lot of wisdom in there.
The only the only thing that I would take an exception to though I mean is the Apostle Paul did refer to himself in the present tense as the chief of sinners. So there is there is some kind of an ongoing identity with the sinful.
Well, thank you so much Joey and Clifton, New Jersey. Please keep listening to iron sharpens iron radio and spreading the word in New Jersey and beyond. I want you I want you to have about four minutes of uninterrupted time to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and Minds of our listeners today.
Amen.
Amen, and I want to very quickly give my own word of warning. I Parents, I don't think that you should send the ladies in your life your lives your your daughters your sisters Your mother's to a a meetings because of the fact that there are criminals there that have to be there by law in order to you know keep in alignment with their parole or whatever the situation is and they are anonymous and There have been very scary stories about women being abused at these recovery meetings Because they don't even realize that the people that are around them who are asking them out for coffee and out on dates may be Sex offenders and so on.
So that's my I think that you have to seek out a church-based recovery group and I just want to Mention again that he brought colony ministries is a wonderful ministry. You can go to he brought colony org He brought colony org.
Do you have any contact information that you care to share Sam? Yes. Yes. In fact everybody who Sent in a question in fact everybody listening if you want a Free PDF of Sam's book God as Bill Wilson understood him send me an email to Chris Arnson at gmail .com Chris Arnson at gmail .com and put I Want Sam Frost book in the subject line?
And I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who wrote in questions. And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior Than you are a sinner.