October 16, 2020 Show with Jon Harris on “Social Justice Goes to Church: The New Left in Modern American Evangelicalism”

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Social Justice as a Divisive Church Issue

And I'm excited to have for the very first time ever a guest who's going to be discussing one of the most controversial issues facing the church even dividing the church in the 21st century that is the subject of social justice.

And my guest John Harris who has an MDiv from Southeastern Seminary and an MA in history from Liberty University is the author of Social Justice Goes to Church the New Left in Modern American Evangelicalism.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio John Harris.

Yeah thank you Chris. I appreciate it.

Well I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away if in the event that they'd like to join us on the air with their own question for you the email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.

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Well John we have a tradition here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio whenever we have a first time guest we have them give a summary of their salvation testimony including what kind of religious atmosphere if any you were raised in and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.

He took a church.

Great. Well tell us about first of all how you got interested in this whole subject of social justice.

Well I and I remember and better training so and I need to let Southern Baptists know became viral. That's what I've been in an evangelical Christian and we're just.

Defining Social Justice and Egalitarianism

Well if you could lay out for us before we even go into the history lay out for us the main tenets of what has been called or what has become to be known as social justice. Obviously for many people who are they maybe if they have if they own a television they must be familiar with a lot of what has been going on in the inner cities of our nation.

There have been protests that have also become or included riots and violent behavior and arson and there are things going on behind the scenes that we find out that there are people who believe that they are social justice warriors who have either been involved in peaceful protests but some of them have also been involved in some of the violence.

We have to be very careful as much as we disagree adamantly with the intrusion of social justice onto the gospel we have to be careful we don't broad brush those that identify themselves as advocates of this movement.

We have to we have to be careful that we don't broad brush them with those that are violent just like Christians have sometimes been given a bad name by those who have identified themselves as Christians but who are involved in all kinds of evil racist organizations or violence or so on.

But so tell us what are the main tenets of this which actually on its surface may sound like many to be hey that sounds like a very good and wonderful thing social justice sounds like something I should be backing.

Social justice. And they did not. That's an egalitarian an egalitarian meaning equality. We use the term equity today to describe egalitarian utopia getting that utopia planning that utopia and maintaining it like the nations that men are actually and egalitarianist religion on purpose.

We'll have to obviously have some things clarified first of all the the term egalitarian is a term that I'm familiar with especially in light of feminism that has infiltrated the church. I happen to be a believer in soul male headship in the church and in the family that does not mean that women are less in the eyes of God that does not mean women are less talented less gifted less and less intelligent.

In fact they can be far far far superior in those categories to even anyone in the congregation where they're a member or they could be far more intelligent than their husbands. They could even be physically stronger on occasions than their husbands but I believe that God has laid out obviously male headship.

And so how is this term egalitarianism and what I was about to say was that the feminists who have infiltrated the church and of course not everyone who believes in Christian egalitarianism or egalitarianism in the church and home is a leftist or feminist.

I believe they're very wrong but some you know come from a Wesleyan holiness background that believes that women have the freedom and liberty to become pastors and so on. I disagree with that but it's not the same as the the liberalism that has infiltrated the church and sought to destroy the order that God has ordained in his word in regard to male headship but but how are you applying egalitarian to this issue because some might think and I'm assuming they'd be thinking wrongly that you are against equality in the sense that you believe that whites are superior to blacks or whites are superior to anyone of another skin color and I could go on and on and how the the liberals love to slander anyone who disagrees with them on anything.

It seems that they will bring up racism as an accusation even when the context of a discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the color of one's skin or their ethnic origin or whatever. It's just bizarre but they know that if they get away with labeling you even if it's just during a temporary discussion if they get away with labeling you a racist people are going to immediately look at anything that you say with great suspicion.

So what exactly do you mean by egalitarianism when applied to this subject?

Yeah so he got made in God's image yet he also says that I submit to the will of my father or by himself and so there's different roles each member of the godhead is a and co-equal and co-eternal. That's that's exactly right and and what we use today is not egalitarianism it's it's either equity or sometimes you'll hear this kind of language inclusion and equality those modern egalitarianism is and that we might have between each other in Ephesians.

I mean you saw that's a usurpation of parental authority but the wives and citizens often the institution egalitarianism that that's really what usually that's the individual and to make sure the equality of outcome so no real differences between people anymore.

That's why we're even seeing in nature of genders one gender generally they're not kicking again by egalitarianism. Well you know right you brought up racism when we use the term racism which is when someone thinks believe in borders unity then you must be a racist between nations now be eliminated.

Yes so you are a firm.

Believer then that all people who all humans regardless of their melanin content they are equal in the sight of god. There is no distinction that god has set up between those of different skin colors or ethnic origins that has anything to do with a hierarchy of superiority or anything like that.

And I'm assuming if you agree with that which you seem to be saying very clearly that the history of this country has a stain on it known as slavery because we in this nation and not that all men who owned slaves were brutal and vicious and satanic.

There were many many uh in this country and other countries in Europe uh who treated uh blacks as less than human and this is a great sin uh chattel slavery as it's sometimes called. Um I'm assuming you believe that.

Is a blight on this nation and that was sin. They're not a principle he's given us um or regulates um the interactions of men. Sociologists. Yeah one of the things that's infuriating to me.

Is that I am utterly amazed uh by how many people cannot clearly recognize that much of the verbiage the rhetoric of those who adhere to what is known as social justice uh that they are perpetuating racism.

And it's just a different target. It's uh white heterosexual males predominantly that they are perpetuating uh hatred toward no matter what they would call it uh. And it's just astonishing to me that we have even men that as as little as nine years ago I had a couple of men who are now involved in this movement uh who back then you would never have guessed in a million years that they would devolve into embracing something like this because they are uh brilliant and theologically right on the money very sound and in my camp of reformed christianity uh but for them especially to not be able to recognize the the racism.

And of course I only believe in one race the human race. But because of the fact that that is a part of our vernacular so people can understand what I'm talking about they can't even see that it is racist for instance to view people with less melanin content in their skin known as white folks caucasians whatever to view them as somehow being innately more guilty of sinfully judging others as being less than they are that this is this is a trait within us as white men and women not them not black friday.

They can't even see how this in and of itself is racism.

Past the stain of penance you want used to read and do all the things you're supposed to do but you'll never get rid of of an evil identity attached. He defines us he created us by nature of being in adam and our sin nature not uh by nature of the fact that we were born in a particular.

Context where we have to go to our first station break right now. If anybody wants to join us with a question of your own again our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com.

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Don't go away we're going to be right back with more of john harris and our discussion on social justice goes to church right after.

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The Spread of Social Justice in Evangelical Leadership

Welcome back. This is chris arnzen and our guest today if you just tuned us in is john harris. He is discussing his new book social justice goes to church the new left in modern evangelicalism and i want to go to a couple of our listener questions before i continue with some of my own.

We have grady and ashborough north carolina who says greeting brothers. What has shocked me the most about the social justice movement within the church has been a number of well-known pastors and church leadership that have brought in that have bought into this.

Why do you think we see.

So many pastors and leaders deceived. Yeah there's i think the biggest one. We should not underestimate convention dying off. We need to replace them and so we need to get young people and minorities interested in joining the denomination and that people buy into it.

Um i do ask people as they're navigating this try to. It's an issue that they've actually on a deeper level and if so then you need.

And i think that uh something that you just mentioned has a very key connection to this whole discussion uh and first of all i think that you may have misspoke uh peter i don't believe ever stopped being a jew.

Peter uh in the new covenant was no longer bound to jewish ceremonial law. In fact uh certain things under that ceremonial law uh well actually all things under that ceremonial law would have been forbidden if they were viewed as required uh to become christians.

Um so i don't know if i miss if you misspoke there but you said.

Peter thought that he was still a jew. I mean he. No no no i. Well i did. I didn't speak. I meant that.

Right right. Well the uh one of the reasons i think this is so crucially connected to this whole discussion is because the jews uh were persecuted and enslaved and very often slaughtered throughout their history by the gentile nations.

And yet when we enter into the new covenant and the jews were the first to become followers of christ they were still forbidden to look upon the gentiles as being in any way uh different than them or under an obligation right uh to uh uh repent of an innate racism that the jews allegedly did not have.

I mean this this kind of idea that that black folks and hispanic folks uh and native american folks uh somehow cannot be racists because they've never had the positions of authority and prestige and power that whites have had.

Which is not even true to begin with but that they uh are somehow given this not only right but duty to now demand something of their white brethren uh in order to be made not only right with god but but in order to bring about reconciliation between the races.

This is something that was clearly forbidden this whole concept of of of the judiazers where they really believed in their jewish superiority.

To the gentiles and and you know i don't know if i'm making sense here but uh yeah come to those who are making an extra requirement and that's what this is in many air. Let the gospel issue. You have to uh give up your position or in one case your family is uh you're involved in generational searches.

Now you need to realize jesus racial reconciliation the biblical kind.

Yeah it's it's amazing that you have some prominent uh members of this movement. And it's it's it's funny i i had um when somebody saw that i was promoting this interview somebody uh posted underneath my um advertisement on facebook that social justice is not a movement.

The idea that it's a movement was an invention of racist whites who don't want to lose their power. But uh and yeah and and um and uh what's the other one. Uh antifa is just an idea it's not an organization or whatever.

But uh the um it's amazing to me that there are prominent figures in this social justice movement who are black who are advocating that. Hey you white folks got to understand if we black folks just got to be together by ourselves sometimes and we got to eat together alone sometimes without you being around and etc etc.

That's a very it's the very thing that paul was rebuking peter and the others who were buying into the lie of the judiazers they were.

Not eating with them. About a year ago they did a campus crusade. Formally they just did a training in another group issues of racial justice and then by the way uh thank you.

Grady uh for the excellent question and please give us your full mailing address in ashborough north carolina because you have won a free copy of social justice goes to church. Compliments of our friends at emerald house group and ambassador international who published this book and keep an eye in the mail for cvbbs .com's delivery or shipment of that book.

And we thank you again for your participation in the show. We have lou from sharpsburg georgia. I believe so many christians are confused or can't discern between what's being touted as social justice compared to.

Justice. Can you please clarify the two. Yeah the quickest way i can do that. People that are you. You look at people and treat them. You give them what is what their do is not based on external factors.

Social justice is the opposite. Social justice destroys biblical justice because it says we must look at external factors. Uh if someone let's say stole something we need those first just a few months ago.

And one of the things can't be too harsh. You have to understand where they're coming from. Yeah it's wrong. It's understandable bracket you come from. It's not understandable to break the law of god.

And there are punishable magistrate exercise and biblical justice. One is equality before the law the other is attempting to bring about an equality of outcome.

Well thank you lou give us your full mailing address in sharpsburg georgia because you have also won a free copy of social justice goes to church by our guest today john harris. And that has been provided for us and you from the good folks at emerald house group and ambassadors international published the book.

And again we also thank cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service for shipping out these books to those who win them by submitting questions. Today we're going to uh our midway break right now. Please be patient with us because it's the longer the normal break in our show because grace life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show so that they can air their own public service announcements and other local things that is required of them by the fcc to make iron sharpens iron radio and other programming that they have local to lake city florida.

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