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October 16, 2020
JON HARRIS (MDiv from Southeastern Seminary & an MA in History from Liberty University), author of “SOCIAL JUSTICE GOES TO CHURCH: The NEW LEFT in MODERN AMERICAN EVANGELICALISM”
Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.
Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.
It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.
Good afternoon Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this 16th day of October 2020.
And I'm excited to have for the very first time ever a guest who's going to be discussing one of the most controversial issues facing the church even dividing the church in the 21st century that is the subject of social justice.
And my guest John Harris who has an MDiv from Southeastern Seminary and an MA in history from Liberty University is the author of Social Justice Goes to Church the New Left in Modern American Evangelicalism.
And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio John Harris.
Yeah thank you Chris. I appreciate it.
Well I'm going to give our listeners our email address right away if in the event that they'd like to join us on the air with their own question for you the email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com.
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Well John we have a tradition here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio whenever we have a first time guest we have them give a summary of their salvation testimony including what kind of religious atmosphere if any you were raised in and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign Lord raised up in your life that drew you to himself and saved you.
He took a church.
Great. Well tell us about first of all how you got interested in this whole subject of social justice.
Well I and I remember and better training so and I need to let Southern Baptists know became viral. That's what I've been in an evangelical Christian and we're just.
Well if you could lay out for us before we even go into the history lay out for us the main tenets of what has been called or what has become to be known as social justice. Obviously for many people who are they maybe if they have if they own a television they must be familiar with a lot of what has been going on in the inner cities of our nation.
There have been protests that have also become or included riots and violent behavior and arson and there are things going on behind the scenes that we find out that there are people who believe that they are social justice warriors who have either been involved in peaceful protests but some of them have also been involved in some of the violence.
We have to be very careful as much as we disagree adamantly with the intrusion of social justice onto the gospel we have to be careful we don't broad brush those that identify themselves as advocates of this movement.
We have to we have to be careful that we don't broad brush them with those that are violent just like Christians have sometimes been given a bad name by those who have identified themselves as Christians but who are involved in all kinds of evil racist organizations or violence or so on.
But so tell us what are the main tenets of this which actually on its surface may sound like many to be hey that sounds like a very good and wonderful thing social justice sounds like something I should be backing.
Social justice. And they did not. That's an egalitarian an egalitarian meaning equality. We use the term equity today to describe egalitarian utopia getting that utopia planning that utopia and maintaining it like the nations that men are actually and egalitarianist religion on purpose.
We'll have to obviously have some things clarified first of all the the term egalitarian is a term that I'm familiar with especially in light of feminism that has infiltrated the church. I happen to be a believer in soul male headship in the church and in the family that does not mean that women are less in the eyes of God that does not mean women are less talented less gifted less and less intelligent.
In fact they can be far far far superior in those categories to even anyone in the congregation where they're a member or they could be far more intelligent than their husbands. They could even be physically stronger on occasions than their husbands but I believe that God has laid out obviously male headship.
And so how is this term egalitarianism and what I was about to say was that the feminists who have infiltrated the church and of course not everyone who believes in Christian egalitarianism or egalitarianism in the church and home is a leftist or feminist.
I believe they're very wrong but some you know come from a Wesleyan holiness background that believes that women have the freedom and liberty to become pastors and so on. I disagree with that but it's not the same as the the liberalism that has infiltrated the church and sought to destroy the order that God has ordained in his word in regard to male headship but but how are you applying egalitarian to this issue because some might think and I'm assuming they'd be thinking wrongly that you are against equality in the sense that you believe that whites are superior to blacks or whites are superior to anyone of another skin color and I could go on and on and how the the liberals love to slander anyone who disagrees with them on anything.
It seems that they will bring up racism as an accusation even when the context of a discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the color of one's skin or their ethnic origin or whatever. It's just bizarre but they know that if they get away with labeling you even if it's just during a temporary discussion if they get away with labeling you a racist people are going to immediately look at anything that you say with great suspicion.
So what exactly do you mean by egalitarianism when applied to this subject?
Yeah so he got made in God's image yet he also says that I submit to the will of my father or by himself and so there's different roles each member of the godhead is a and co-equal and co-eternal. That's that's exactly right and and what we use today is not egalitarianism it's it's either equity or sometimes you'll hear this kind of language inclusion and equality those modern egalitarianism is and that we might have between each other in Ephesians.
I mean you saw that's a usurpation of parental authority but the wives and citizens often the institution egalitarianism that that's really what usually that's the individual and to make sure the equality of outcome so no real differences between people anymore.
That's why we're even seeing in nature of genders one gender generally they're not kicking again by egalitarianism. Well you know right you brought up racism when we use the term racism which is when someone thinks believe in borders unity then you must be a racist between nations now be eliminated.
Yes so you are a firm.
Believer then that all people who all humans regardless of their melanin content they are equal in the sight of god. There is no distinction that god has set up between those of different skin colors or ethnic origins that has anything to do with a hierarchy of superiority or anything like that.
And I'm assuming if you agree with that which you seem to be saying very clearly that the history of this country has a stain on it known as slavery because we in this nation and not that all men who owned slaves were brutal and vicious and satanic.
There were many many uh in this country and other countries in Europe uh who treated uh blacks as less than human and this is a great sin uh chattel slavery as it's sometimes called. Um I'm assuming you believe that.
Is a blight on this nation and that was sin. They're not a principle he's given us um or regulates um the interactions of men. Sociologists. Yeah one of the things that's infuriating to me.
Is that I am utterly amazed uh by how many people cannot clearly recognize that much of the verbiage the rhetoric of those who adhere to what is known as social justice uh that they are perpetuating racism.
And it's just a different target. It's uh white heterosexual males predominantly that they are perpetuating uh hatred toward no matter what they would call it uh. And it's just astonishing to me that we have even men that as as little as nine years ago I had a couple of men who are now involved in this movement uh who back then you would never have guessed in a million years that they would devolve into embracing something like this because they are uh brilliant and theologically right on the money very sound and in my camp of reformed christianity uh but for them especially to not be able to recognize the the racism.
And of course I only believe in one race the human race. But because of the fact that that is a part of our vernacular so people can understand what I'm talking about they can't even see that it is racist for instance to view people with less melanin content in their skin known as white folks caucasians whatever to view them as somehow being innately more guilty of sinfully judging others as being less than they are that this is this is a trait within us as white men and women not them not black friday.
They can't even see how this in and of itself is racism.
Past the stain of penance you want used to read and do all the things you're supposed to do but you'll never get rid of of an evil identity attached. He defines us he created us by nature of being in adam and our sin nature not uh by nature of the fact that we were born in a particular.
Context where we have to go to our first station break right now. If anybody wants to join us with a question of your own again our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com c h r i s a r n z e n at gmail .com.
Please as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence. If you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.
Don't go away we're going to be right back with more of john harris and our discussion on social justice goes to church right after.
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Thank you.
Welcome back. This is chris arnzen and our guest today if you just tuned us in is john harris. He is discussing his new book social justice goes to church the new left in modern evangelicalism and i want to go to a couple of our listener questions before i continue with some of my own.
We have grady and ashborough north carolina who says greeting brothers. What has shocked me the most about the social justice movement within the church has been a number of well-known pastors and church leadership that have brought in that have bought into this.
Why do you think we see.
So many pastors and leaders deceived. Yeah there's i think the biggest one. We should not underestimate convention dying off. We need to replace them and so we need to get young people and minorities interested in joining the denomination and that people buy into it.
Um i do ask people as they're navigating this try to. It's an issue that they've actually on a deeper level and if so then you need.
And i think that uh something that you just mentioned has a very key connection to this whole discussion uh and first of all i think that you may have misspoke uh peter i don't believe ever stopped being a jew.
Peter uh in the new covenant was no longer bound to jewish ceremonial law. In fact uh certain things under that ceremonial law uh well actually all things under that ceremonial law would have been forbidden if they were viewed as required uh to become christians.
Um so i don't know if i miss if you misspoke there but you said.
Peter thought that he was still a jew. I mean he. No no no i. Well i did. I didn't speak. I meant that.
Right right. Well the uh one of the reasons i think this is so crucially connected to this whole discussion is because the jews uh were persecuted and enslaved and very often slaughtered throughout their history by the gentile nations.
And yet when we enter into the new covenant and the jews were the first to become followers of christ they were still forbidden to look upon the gentiles as being in any way uh different than them or under an obligation right uh to uh uh repent of an innate racism that the jews allegedly did not have.
I mean this this kind of idea that that black folks and hispanic folks uh and native american folks uh somehow cannot be racists because they've never had the positions of authority and prestige and power that whites have had.
Which is not even true to begin with but that they uh are somehow given this not only right but duty to now demand something of their white brethren uh in order to be made not only right with god but but in order to bring about reconciliation between the races.
This is something that was clearly forbidden this whole concept of of of the judiazers where they really believed in their jewish superiority.
To the gentiles and and you know i don't know if i'm making sense here but uh yeah come to those who are making an extra requirement and that's what this is in many air. Let the gospel issue. You have to uh give up your position or in one case your family is uh you're involved in generational searches.
Now you need to realize jesus racial reconciliation the biblical kind.
Yeah it's it's amazing that you have some prominent uh members of this movement. And it's it's it's funny i i had um when somebody saw that i was promoting this interview somebody uh posted underneath my um advertisement on facebook that social justice is not a movement.
The idea that it's a movement was an invention of racist whites who don't want to lose their power. But uh and yeah and and um and uh what's the other one. Uh antifa is just an idea it's not an organization or whatever.
But uh the um it's amazing to me that there are prominent figures in this social justice movement who are black who are advocating that. Hey you white folks got to understand if we black folks just got to be together by ourselves sometimes and we got to eat together alone sometimes without you being around and etc etc.
That's a very it's the very thing that paul was rebuking peter and the others who were buying into the lie of the judiazers they were.
Not eating with them. About a year ago they did a campus crusade. Formally they just did a training in another group issues of racial justice and then by the way uh thank you.
Grady uh for the excellent question and please give us your full mailing address in ashborough north carolina because you have won a free copy of social justice goes to church. Compliments of our friends at emerald house group and ambassador international who published this book and keep an eye in the mail for cvbbs .com's delivery or shipment of that book.
And we thank you again for your participation in the show. We have lou from sharpsburg georgia. I believe so many christians are confused or can't discern between what's being touted as social justice compared to.
Justice. Can you please clarify the two. Yeah the quickest way i can do that. People that are you. You look at people and treat them. You give them what is what their do is not based on external factors.
Social justice is the opposite. Social justice destroys biblical justice because it says we must look at external factors. Uh if someone let's say stole something we need those first just a few months ago.
And one of the things can't be too harsh. You have to understand where they're coming from. Yeah it's wrong. It's understandable bracket you come from. It's not understandable to break the law of god.
And there are punishable magistrate exercise and biblical justice. One is equality before the law the other is attempting to bring about an equality of outcome.
Well thank you lou give us your full mailing address in sharpsburg georgia because you have also won a free copy of social justice goes to church by our guest today john harris. And that has been provided for us and you from the good folks at emerald house group and ambassadors international published the book.
And again we also thank cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service for shipping out these books to those who win them by submitting questions. Today we're going to uh our midway break right now. Please be patient with us because it's the longer the normal break in our show because grace life radio 90 .1 fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show so that they can air their own public service announcements and other local things that is required of them by the fcc to make iron sharpens iron radio and other programming that they have local to lake city florida.
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Chris arnzen at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with john harris. And more of our discussion on social justice goes to church right after these messages from our sponsors. Chris arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio announcing a new website with an exciting offer from world magazine my trusted source for news from a christian perspective try world now at no charge for 90 days by going to get world now .com that's get world now .com.
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Before we return to our guest john harris today we just have some important announcements to make. Uh monday and tuesday of next week the 19th and 20th of october we have jeff thomas returning to iron sharpens iron radio for two days in a row.
Jeff thomas is one of my favorite guests. He is uh very well known to banner of truth readers and supporters. Uh not only do does the banner of truth publish some books by jeff thomas but he also speaks at many of the banner of truth conferences.
And he was the pastor of alfred place baptist church in everest with wales for over 50 years. That's a very rare thing not only in our day but it always has been a rare thing for a pastor to be at one church that long.
So please tune in monday and tuesday of next week to hear jeff thomas and i will keep you updated on the the topics. Uh also we have tim clary joining us for the first time on wednesday the 21st of october he's going to be joining us to discuss his book carved in stone geologic evidence of the worldwide flood.
This is a massive book nearly 500 pages hardback and we are going to be giving away a limited number of copies of this book. So get your questions ready on all things related to geology and a young earth and on the creation versus evolution debate and so on but especially on the geologic evidence fossil record etc.
That's this wednesday the 21st of october right here on iron trap and zion radio. Then we have kurt smith kurt m smith returning to discuss part two of a discussion that we began uh yesterday uh thundering the word the awakening ministry of george whitfield.
We just scratched the surface yesterday so we will be joined by kurt smith once again next thursday the 22nd of october to continue that discussion and we have more books to give away uh as well. And jeff waddington will be returning on the 23rd of october friday the 23rd to continue his series on romans.
Jeff is the pastor of the faith orthodox presbyterian church in florenceborough pennsylvania. Finally uh keep this uh whole week marked uh to listen every day uh to iron trap and zion radio. That's october 26th through the 30th the last week of october.
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That's chris arnson at gmail .com. That's also the email address to send in the question to our guest today john harris as we discuss his new book social justice goes to church the new left and modern american evangelicalism.
Before we take any more listener questions john uh a .k .a if you could please be very specific about how this social justice idea and social justice movement infringes upon and really dangerously dilutes or even perhaps changes.
The the very gospel of jesus christ jesus we need. The list goes on. There's about five. One way the other way that undermines the idea of truth itself and the objectivity works and standpoint epistemology.
The best way i can explain it is it's the idea that those who are a greater minority say and what exactly are they expecting of not only.
The church to do. But what are they expecting. Uh the civil government and your average ordinary citizens everywhere in this nation and obviously the world. Because this is not just exclusively an american phenomenon but probably predominantly.
But uh what are they exactly expecting us to do.
It ranges in 1977. In the age of hunger hungry neighbors can come among see in the world he supports be redistributed from places like the united states of the united nations. Environmental concerns want to get that revoking evangelical distribution schemes and then um creating a redefined poverty in ways that they wouldn't.
Yes it seems to me that this social.
Justice movement in varying degrees depending upon who it is that you're speaking about because it it is not completely monolithic you know there seems to be varieties and flavors and levels within it.
But it seems that routinely the three commandments of god that are being violated by these folks who advocate this are bearing false witness. When you are assuming that people just because they happen to be white are racist uh and it is required of them to repent of this racism no matter what kind of lives they've lived or what kind of thoughts they have and and so on.
And uh you know blaming uh 21st century white folk for the sins of slavery and jim crow and so on. When not only should we not be uh accused of bearing the guilt of sin of ancestors of ours. But many of us don't have ancestors that were involved in slavery or the jim crow laws.
My mother's family uh immigrated from poland to the united states in the early 1900s. My father's side of the family predominantly came from norway in the late 1800s and settled in brooklyn new york and rhode island.
And there were no uh slaves at that time in in those states. So i mean the whole thing is just insane. Really the other two commandments that are routinely it seems being violated are coveting your neighbor's good goods and uh they are in fact advocating stealing uh not to mention those folks that are actually stealing right now during the the riots when they are pillaging local businesses and shops.
Now i'm not saying that everybody who advocates social justice is in favor of that. So please don't accuse me of broad brushing or bearing false witness myself. But many of those that are doing that claim to be a part of this movement and uh they have been uh given a seal of approval by others uh for doing this uh because it is they're.
They're just due uh rewards uh because of the idea of reparations uh that uh that whites owe the especially it seems the black community a part of our income because of the sin of slavery. And even as i said if our ancestors had nothing to do with that.
Do you have anything to comment about what i uh just said. Yeah. Well and then using that to leverage support for essentially what amounts to associating must have you trace back anyone's past might abuse of some kind somewhere because we're and people aren't able to make separate they aren't able to they're only looking at things that and then they're lashing that.
That's we have. Let's see here. Ronald in eastern suffolk county long island.
Who says. Although many marxists and communists and socialists hate christianity openly there are some that appeal to the compassion and sensitivity of christians by trying to dupe them into believing that marxism and communism and socialism really is rooted in true christianity.
An example that is regularly used is the citation of acts 245. And they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all as anyone might have need. How do you differentiate that true.
Historical act of the disciples in the first century from marxism. Yeah very simple laws that we have today to do. It's just simple charity. And christians have been in my leg. They're the ones that are running into it.
Martin luther. From the bubonic plague which the government forced men to be the middleman. Yeah the only time that it should be legally mandated that we give a part.
Of our money to assist uh the needs of the poor uh is when we've actually stolen or defrauded them in some way ourselves not our ancestors but but uh right. And of course that would even be uh something that a church uh church elders should do if they are being responsible and obedient to the scriptures.
If they have a member that's under discipline they should uh to to demonstrate repentance. That person should be mandated uh to give a part uh whatever he he stole or defrauded from anyone uh he has to return that.
But uh at the same time we have to be careful that this uh right to private property and so on even the legitimacy of wealth which in fact i'm going to have a guest on the program uh defending wealth uh in the not so distant future um who's written a book on that subject uh we cannot allow ourselves to be deceived and to have our consciences salved into thinking that it is.
There's nothing wrong with greed there's nothing wrong with uh not having compassion and actually reaching out physically to the poor and those in need especially those amongst the congregation in which we are a member that doesn't rule out everybody else either especially in your community and so on.
But especially those in the the body of christ in your your own congregation uh in fact that is what james as you are fully aware uses as an example to show who has a dead faith a false faith is those that just say be warm and filled but aren't actually helping the brothers and sisters in need with with their physical needs.
Yeah that's the first virtue uh. Well we have to go to our final break right now it's going to be a more brief than the last two. If anybody wants to join us on the air send in a question as quickly as you can at chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com and give us your first name city and state and country of residence.
If you live outside the usa and by the way uh ronald and eastern suffolk county please give us your full mailing address so that we can have cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service ship your free copy of social justice goes to church the new left and modern american evangelicalism by john harris.
And thank you for contributing that question.
And we're going to be right back after these messages so don't go away. Iron sharpens iron.
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Welcome back. This is chris arnson. And we do have another question for our guest john harris from john in banger maine. John says i hear sometimes those who oppose the social justice movement rightly say things that aren't true.
Like for instance racism doesn't exist. Obviously they might be meaning that institutionalized systemic racism doesn't exist. But obviously racism exists and is alive. And well unfortunately even judging from what you two have been saying through this program that the social justice movement is perpetuating racism right now.
But i do want to ask your guest do you believe that racism is institutionalized and systemic in our day and age in this country. And what are other things that those who are on our side as it were in opposing social justice that they do things wrong on occasion i guess what he means is more than likely saying things that are wrong.
But but if you could what's the second part of the question is you know. Well first of all he started by saying that he has heard people who rightly oppose social justice say that racism doesn't exist right.
Which is obviously a falsehood. I mean we're not going to be in a sinless world until we are uh the earth is restored and it's a new heaven a new earth. And and that we are with the in with christ for eternity that's the only time that racism and sin is going to disappear.
But he was basically saying that that's one thing that people who rightly oppose social justice wrongly say. But what are other things in your opinion that are being said wrong in other words by uh by people on our side if you were to lack of a better term.
Doesn't exist right. Well you have the concept. Like for instance you had moses's sister.
Who was uh very upset that moses was married to an ethiopian and god struck her white with.
Leprosy a very very ironic way of of chastising her. Yeah complained about today in social justice circles i don't find the bible talking. You'll find uh things like i don't like problem that's.
Sinful uh thinking of yourself more highly than you ought and uh not loving your brother. Who you have seen. Uh so. Therefore how can you love god. Who you have not seen. Exactly. Yeah exactly right.
And movement and the cure. They have a different definition of racist. And that's where you start getting. There's no racism without any racist. Isn't that they. They set it up that way. Understanding of power.
Describe the difference. I just 19 coven 19. Supposedly. Um you know you can have all the disease. Right. And that's what people are accusing. Uh can't point to examples. It is you know. Ends up with.
Well you love your country in the united states today. Um i mean i've always told people that. So if you can show me a racist law i'll present with you if you can show me the buy into this boogeyman mentality that just says well it when we don't.
So you need to like any other sin. Two examples of it. You have to find out that we're human. So i think anyone on any side of anything can make mistakes. And i think we are in a day and age where victim the other person ends up usually winning the emotion.
I lament that but as i can apply it as rightly as i can and that's what i.
Encourage. And john and banger main you have also won a free copy of social justice goes to church the new left and modern american evangelicalism so please make sure we have your full mailing address so that's cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service can ship that out to you.
And once again we thank emerald house group and ambassadors international who published this book for providing us with these giveaway copies. Well i want to make sure that you have several minutes of uninterrupted time now john to make sure that that what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today will be heard uh uninterrupted so you can.
Begin now. Well i appreciate you. They are in christ. The word of god is preached in between and be one in him amen. And i'd like to also voice a brotherly warning to my brothers and sisters.
Who may actually truly be guilty of the sin of racism. Never allow all these things that are happening in our world the rioting and the arson and the crime and so on in the name of social justice. Never allow that to salve your own conscience to think that the racism that you're holding on to is inconsequential or deserved.
Uh we can't overlook the fact that as even john our guest has agreed that racism has not disappeared. There are people of all colors however they're not just white people. There are there are people of all skin colors who are hating those that do not look like them and come from the same ethnic background as them that has been going on for as long nearly as long as this world has been in existence.
But please never think that you can justify those attitudes by the sin that you see going on under the name of social justice. I want to thank you so much john for being an excellent guest today. I want to let our listeners know that john has a website social justice goes to church dot com.
Social justice goes to church dot com. You can find out more about this book there. Also the publishers have a website and that is ambassador dash international dot com. Ambassador dash international dot com.
You can find out more about what they publish in addition to the social justice book. And don't forget cvbbs .com who sponsor this program. You can order any book that you hear discussed on this show from cvbbs .com cumberland valley bible book service.
If they don't have it in stock they will get it for you. I want to thank you john again for being my guest. I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write. I hope that you all have a safe and blessed and god honoring weekend and lord's day.
And i want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior than you are a sinner. Amen.