A Christian View of Israel and Hamas

The share it with a friend deal even if that friend is yourself. Your McDonald's your rules for limited time. Get a hot and juicy bacon McDouble with applewood smoked bacon a classic McChicken a Flavorful hot spicy McChicken or other McDonald's faves.

Mix and match any two for just $3 .99. Price and participation may vary single item at regular price cannot be combined with combo meal.

With lucky land slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere dearly beloved.

We are gathered here today to. Has anyone seen the bride and groom.

Sorry, we're here. We were getting lucky in the limo and we lost track of time.

No, lucky lane casino with cash prizes that add up quicker than a guest registry. Well in that case, I pronounce you lucky.

Play for free at lucky land slots. Calm daily bonuses are waiting. No purchase necessary. Boyd were prohibited by law 18 plus terms and conditions apply see website for details.

Introduction to Theology Throwdown and the Christian Podcast Community

Well, welcome to another edition of theology Throwdown this is where we all the those that are part of the Christian podcast community get together and talk about well Sometimes our theological differences.

Sometimes we agree, but in either way, we're hopefully going to do it in love and charity. And so if you're not familiar with the Christian podcast community, have you been hiding under a rock? What is wrong with you people.

Go to Christian podcast community org. We have over 50 Vetted podcasts. We produce about 40 hours of content a week. So we got something you will enjoy listening to and And probably more than you're gonna get a chance to listen to in a week.

Just saying I do listen to all 40 hours and I listen at triple speed. That's how I get it done.

But.

We're gonna let each of the people here introduce themselves. Give a little bit about their their podcast and tonight's topic is going to be the current Situation in Israel with Hamas and what is a Christian to do about it?

What should be a Christian view. Is there a right and a wrong are both sides wrong? Is there any way that we could figure out who who's the just and the unjust in this situation and Do we let the culture define these things?

So let us start off with well Rebecca. You were the first one in tonight. Nope. Sorry. I think Garrett was but I can't remember. So we'll start with Rebecca ladies first. We'll start with Rebecca then Rebecca introduce yourself and your podcast so people know your voice and your podcast.

Yeah, hi. I'm Rebecca Berschwinger and I am the host of one little candle podcast. My podcast is a place where believers can come and be empowered and encouraged to be the light that God called us to be a witness for God.

And.

To make a difference in their corner of the world. No matter how small their sphere of influence may may or not, you know seem. The show explores various issues and topics that impact the world around us and our faith and so at the end of every episode I provide the listener with practical guidelines for responding to those issues and then Applying their Christian principles to their everyday lives.

And I will say that if you are interested in the topic tonight. You may want to be checking out Rebecca's one little candle podcast. She has dealt with Israel several times even before October 7th. So it's not that she was just doing it because of that.

So you'll find a lot of good information there next up Garrett.

I'm Garrett Hampton. I'm the producer of the schoolhouse rocked podcast and the director of schoolhouse rocked the homeschool revolution Which is now available to stream free on the internet. If you go to schoolhouse rocked movie calm and we have a ministry to Christian homeschooling parents and those who think they maybe can't do it.

We love to encourage you guys that it is your responsibility as parents to be discipling the hearts of your kids.

All right, there's no homeschoolers out there anyway, I mean really as of this year.

It's now the fastest growing form of education in the United States. Yeah.

I was actually seeing a thing recently that they were they they're the liberals that is are upset because the number of blacks that are now homeschooling has Gone up astronomically and they don't know what to do about it.

How about you start educating people like they won't allow school choice. So parents during COVID went wait I now that I know what the parents in school or the teachers in school are doing. I know I could do better.

Yeah, the ultimate form of school choice is pulling your kids out. Yeah, and in every state we can do that. Currently there are different laws that were That have to do with homeschooling in every state, but in all 50 states parents have the right to teach their own children.

Yeah, and it's it is an interesting thing. I don't know if you saw the the video there's video of a Black mother who what goes into the classroom and the history teacher just has a big LGBT flag up and she rips it down and throws it in the trash and and.

She's you know, she's like you're supposed to be teaching history. I raised my boys to be men and they got to learn history here not you know, your political agenda. It was like wow. Okay, they called security on her.

All right. So next up the one of the.

Secular Entertainment and Christian Worldview

With Eve.

Franklin who's. I think the has attended more of these than anyone. I think. Eve you've only missed one theology throwdown if I'm not mistaken. But we had to move it cuz well someone Andrew screwed up.

So Eve introduce your podcast and your your voice so people know you.

Certainly I am a Franklin. I'm one of the co-hosts of. Are you just watching and.

We.

Just basically talk about secular entertainment from a Christian worldview and tonight I'm actually joined by my co-host Tim Martin, and I'll let him introduce himself.

Hi all I am as you've said Tim Martin I am the Ed McMahon to Eve's Johnny Carson on are you just watching. And I usually. Actually, I think I'm the opposite of Eva. I've only made one other one before tonight.

Because I usually have a conflict for the meeting, but it's a pleasure to be here and especially with a topic so important. I'm looking forward to the discussion. And I am Andrew. Rap report.

I am the host of Andrew rap ports rap report. That's rap with two P's just to go look for rap report with two P's and I'm also the host of apologetics live. That's a live show Thursday nights you we can ask you can come in ask any question about God in the Bible because I can answer any Question you have about God in the Bible and if you doubt that go to apologetics live .com Thursday nights 8 o 'clock Eastern Time.

Give me your toughest question. And when I say I don't know Just remember that's a perfectly good answer. I Said I can answer any question. I didn't say I'm gonna give an answer other than I don't know just saying but So those are mine.

I am the executive director of the Christian podcast community. And so with that let's get into our topic and I should say for full disclosure With this topic since this comes up People have accused me of support for Israel because I'm a dispensationalist.

I do not support Israel because I'm a dispensationalist. I Support Israel because I'm an Israeli. I'm in Israelite. I am from the tribe of Levi. That is why I support Israel so doesn't have to do with my theological position.

It has to do with well, I was raised Jewish.

So.

What Christians Should Think About Israel and Hamas

There's a there's a lot of discussion going on folks and and I'm gonna open this first question up to anyone who wants to to start but There's been a lot that we have seen dealing with Israel of. Initially after October 7th, there was a lot of support for Israel even from liberals.

I Was surprised by that. I didn't think it was gonna last long and it didn't it only took about a week and and week by week. We're seeing more and more Pressure against Israel more and more anti-semitism more and more Attacks saying that Israel is in the wrong.

They're oppressors. They're.

You know.

Colonialists there. This is an apartheid all these type of things. So my first question kind of an open-ended question is What should a Christian think about this situation? How should we view the situation there just in a general sense?

Even if you want to give high-level views. Without giving this specifics, but how is Christian should we address when we have something like this.

Happening in our culture. Well, our first reaction should be to see what God's Word says about it and what God feels about it himself. It's great to look at history and I think history actually stands in defense of Israel here.

But aside from history as Christians, we should be biblically minded and have a mind of God. And so our first concern Should be to seek out what he says in his word about the situation and it's very clear.

He speaks clearly to the situation.

All right, anyone else with the. Go. Go ahead. Tim when you say he speaks clearly the situation. Do you have any particular?

References in mind. I was gonna ask that when we. I was gonna ask that They I want. I'm gonna ask you to hold it because I want to see. Because I was gonna ask that Because I was curious.

As well as my high-level view, but I've got a. I've got a big old list of scripture tonight. And honestly, if I only read tonight, that would be plenty.

And anyone else. You know, how should Christian to me? Obviously, you know Garrett gave us the Sunday school answer the Bible right that that's that's answer number two. It's Jesus and then the Bible.

So.

But what we need to understand is as a church currently that Sunday school answer is just broadly ignored. Some Christians quote-unquote don't think biblically in many many cases and so it's worth repeating that Sunday school answer.

True Tim you turn you want to say?

Yeah, I just wanted. I think that Christians Like everyone in the world right now should be looking at the acts of pure evil executed by the the Hamas soldiers on October 7th and Should recognize it for what it is Evil at the the very basest form and When you compare what they did to the founding charters and the history of Hamas Nobody should really be surprised.

We see a great deal of sin in the world and and this is just You know the the vinegar and baking soda volcano flowing over of the the cooking pot that is Gaza and and West Bank and and the Heights Golan Heights, so.

I think.

We should be we should be looking at the acts as the evil that they are but constantly remembering that there are Innocence. You know that is really innocent, but there are people who are not militant.

There are people who are not Antagonist who are caught in the middle and we should be praying for them on both sides of both sides both believers and non-believers.

Good point. Rebecca or Eve want to weigh in on this. I'm sure Rebecca does.

Sure, I am, you know given given all the The Habaloo that's got that's focusing on Israel and Palestine as believers as far as especially when it comes to the anti-semitism and all the You know pro-palestinian rallies and things that are that are happening, which I think a lot of it is simply rooted in ignorance.

But I think as Christians it's important that as Garrett said we need to Know what God has to say about it. I think biblically, but I think we need to really educate ourselves both biblically and through history so that we can give an informed response an answer to people and I think a lot of Christians really Don't know a whole lot about it.

So all right, I think we need to.

Eve want to weigh in on this one.

I've just been sitting back and sort of educating myself on this. I've been raised to believe one way very strongly, but You know that you have to support Israel as a Christian no matter what and I've kind of been moderating that position somewhat because I think as Christians we should be more concerned for the souls that are lost then that then the blood that is spilled and and who's shedding the blood because All in all there are the vast majority of people on both sides are unsaved and we should be concerned about the souls more than anything.

Yeah, and I you know, I'll start with taking where Garrett started and and go a little bit deeper in that and then we'll get to his his scripture, but I Would say yeah, we start with scripture but more specifically the area of justice and I can turn to The many many many scriptures that talk about justice and what I'm gonna do is look at this situation.

The question I'm gonna ask is is one side just and Is another side unjust or are they both unjust. They obviously both both can't be just right.

So.

I'm looking for Justice here. What is the right thing? Because I know that that's where God is gonna be behind. However, let me also say I just recorded.

An.

Episode on this same topic on my rap report podcast with dr. Michael Brown another Jewish believer and so we discuss the situation we give a lot of the history and It's always bad to give the end of the story, but I will do that here so that doesn't mean you shouldn't go listen to the rest of the podcast because you don't miss all the great content, but I Concluded with having the view that I think we do have to have as believers sort of where Eve was going is the fact that many of the people both in Israel and Gaza are Not believers and so The question is it God's will for there to be war in Israel right now?

Yes.

That's God's will Andrew. How do you know that because it's happening? Yeah, that's how I know because God's sovereign and it's happening. So yeah, God is allowing this to happen. So now as Christians, we now have to ask question.

Why? Why is he and and I put this argument forth and this is something I'm praying toward. I hope that you as a listener will pray toward this as well. But my prayer is not that some human being Will work out a peace deal to resolve the issue between Israel and The Palestinians and or may be more specific those in Gaza.

I'll explain maybe later and show why I don't use the term Palestinian the way it's used but today but What we see is can you picture what would happen if the gospel went forth in? Israel and Gaza and Jewish people start getting saved in Israel and Muslim people start getting saved in Gaza and they start coming together and working together.

Could you picture what the rest of the world would be doing if all of a sudden? It's because of the gospel of Jesus Christ that there's peace in Israel. Like guy we get all the credit for that. The rest of the world would be going.

Wait, wait. How did this happen? And maybe it could create a revival that would go around the world instead of people thinking there's gonna be a world. Why don't we pray that the gospel goes forth and that there be a revival there that's my thoughts.

So Garrett, I'm gonna throw this back to you now with Tim's question, which was gonna be the thing I was gonna throw at you anyway, since you you mentioned it I mean, it's like you you just said hey here I am.

I'm gonna open this up. So I get to be the guy given all the scripture.

So go for it. Give your biblical argument. Yeah, I'm gonna start. I'm gonna start with a list real quick of Scriptures that I think are really applicable. The first should be I think a quick look at Ishmael and.

And who he was and who he would be in Genesis 16 and then Genesis 1726 and 28. We look at God's promise to Abraham Isaac and Jacob and his everlasting covenant that he establishes. Which includes the land?

And so I mean just from a historical situation we understand that that land is a part of a covenant and the people are a part of a covenant and they also have an Enemy that goes back for thousands of years and who who were promised in the word will be a persistent enemy to them.

We also need to look I think at Ezekiel 37 38 and 39. At some of the prophecies about some of the conflicts that would come to this area. And then I think it's also too important to look at what's to come and Jesus talks about this.

What's coming in the end times to this area in? Matthew 24 and that that account is repeated in the other Gospels and then Israel's also referenced all through Revelation. So so definitely we've got some scripture to look at.

If you want me to kick it off I'd love to kick it off with Genesis 17. I think this is a good place to start before we get to. Whether or not the gospel will go forth in this. Because I do think that this Conflict is a great opportunity for the gospel.

I do think we need to look at the historical perspective first and so I'd love to start with Genesis 17 7 and God says here and I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant to be God to you and to your offspring after you and I will give you and your offspring after you the land of your sojournings all the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession and I will be their God and this comes just after God says that he will multiply them and make them a great nation and the father of a multitude of nations and That he's gonna make him fruitful and bless him.

And also we understand through that that we would be blessed if we bless that people. And we would be cursed if we curse that people.

Covenant Theology and the Abrahamic Covenant

Okay, so I'm not sure where what Tim's position would be on this. But I'm gonna put my Covenant Theologian hat on since I don't know if there's anyone here who holds to that here. It just happens to be Tim.

I'm not sure your position if you're more dispensational Covenant Theologian or something in between.

I am definitely heavy on the Covenant Theologian side. Oh, okay.

So then I'm gonna make your argument and we'll see how good I do, right? So so Garrett they like from a Covenant theology perspective. We they would say I almost said we would say but I wouldn't be in this camp.

Tim would say that Israel was fulfilled in the church that cut that everlasting covenant is is now the church. What say you?

Yeah, I'm glad that you brought this up early and it's one of the reasons last night I was kind of glad the show got postponed because I got to dig because I knew. And so what I did was first of all, I started with that everlasting covenant.

Verse.

Because God was the unilateral Establisher of the Covenant and it's up to him to determine when it's fulfilled and whether or not it continues. And he does say it would be an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his offspring.

So then the only argument could be well, are we his replacement offspring in the church? But the beauty of God's Word is it doesn't start with general Genesis. It goes all the way through Revelation and in Revelation when one of the things that's really really interesting Is that the people of Israel in the land of Israel?

Pursue throughout scripture and in Revelation what God does is really neat. Is that in certain cases? He separates Israel even the twelve tribes from the church and so we understand that even if there's a Separate covenant or a new covenant, which we know there's a new covenant with the church.

We also understand that some parts at least of this covenant with Israel Persist all the way through to the end times. And one of the one of the lovely pictures I want to bring out is that when God establishes his throne To reign for the millennia, right?

He doesn't do it in the new Lancaster, California. Or the new New Jersey he does it in the New Jerusalem and We see that God very clearly has a heart for the land and a heart for the people all the way through his reign for.

Eternity. What do you think Tim. Is the covenant the allergic? You may disagree. He's on mute. Okay. Yeah, I.

Don't use zoom very often. So I wasn't sure if that was a push to talk or not So I would say that the That the argument is still absolutely valid. In you know reformed theology we have the already but not yet Concept and We can't assume.

That.

That the the the non-believers in Israel or in Gaza Anywhere in the Middle East or anywhere at all for that matter? Will not be Christians. And in fact Paul makes clear in Romans 11.

That.

Even with covenant theology that the church that sees me the the nation of Israel still serves a very specific purpose from a covenant perspective, though. We are children of Abraham because we have joined the family of Christ by accepting Christ as our Savior and Acknowledging our need for his forgiveness of our sins were adopted into his family.

So we're still Non-jewish Christians are every bit Members of the The nation of Israel the offspring of Abraham. So I would say that Garrett you're you didn't say anything wrong.

But.

Beyond that I would say that non-christian Israelis are Deserving of the exact same Respect and love that Every non-christian in the world who is blind Because they're not imbibed by the Spirit You know That they should get as well.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think I mean, I think that there is a view that many Christians have that somehow, you know, kind of like you've said a lot of Christians, especially more in more of the dispensational camp are kind of like Raised or taught that well Israel special and we the nation of Israel and I think that's why there was so many in 1948 that I think dispensationalism was kind of on a rise because Israel became a nation.

But.

That I mean we should not our theology should not be affected by whether Israel is or is not a nation. Okay. It should be affected because we are interpreting God's Word and we're coming to conclusions from that alone.

Yeah, I would like to clarify That Israel is special but Israel is not the only recipient of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Yeah, yeah agreed. One of the things I'd love to say on that note though is The fact that Israel is a nation should actually inform some of our theology. Because there's prophecy that Israel would be restored as a nation.

And so if anything it should Confirm our belief in God and the belief in his scripture. That was prophesied a long time ago. And I believe that that it was important and intended by God that they should be a nation again.

Yeah, and I mean, I think that You know the so The I had someone who had asked me point-blank and said Do you think that? The the state of Israel in 1948 and what's happening in Israel today. Do you believe that that is a fulfillment of prophecy and I said no, I Don't I'm because I don't know right give me 2 ,000 years or maybe maybe I'll know then right but after it's happens, I would know but the reality is that I I said I can't say it's the fulfillment of prophecy yet, but I can tell you it's God's will and He was like, well, how could you say that I said because they're there Because there's a state of Israel and he was like, okay, I can agree with that.

So.

You know, yeah, can I can I read just a short piece of scripture here? No, you can't do that on a Christian program. Ezekiel 39 27 when I've brought them back from the peoples and gathered them from their enemies lands and Through them have vindicated my holiness in the sight of many nations then they shall know that I am the Lord their God because I sent them into exile among the nations and Then assembled them into their own land.

I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore. And I will not hide my face anymore from them when I pour out my spirit upon the house of Israel Declares the Lord God. And I think that's actually a prophecy that has only been partially fulfilled.

But I do think their restoration as a land was included in that prophecy, but it's it says this One I will leave none of them remaining in the nations anymore. Well, clearly that's not the case and and it says then Well, let me go back to then they shall know that I am the Lord their God Because I sent them into exile and then assembled them into their own land.

And I think what's clear here is that even the rest her restoration of that nation? points to God's power and glory and Is a testimony to the nations, but it's also meant to be a testimony to the Jewish people who haven't yet accepted that.

All right. Let me ask. It seems that our Rebecca and Eve are the more quiet ones tonight. See if they would like to contribute anything to that. So we've discussed so far. Okay, that's silence. All right, so We could edit out the silence now.

See these unlike Tim and Eve that this show we don't do much editing because we put the video out. So, you know, you got it. You can't you can't do any bloopers or making No mistakes on this. And and we'll have to see if there was rumor before we went live.

There's rumor that you know, maybe on the are you just watching there was some disagreement between Tim and Eve on this issue maybe. So we'll have to wait to see we'll have to wait to hear. I should say it may get edited out of there.

So who knows we'll see. What movie are you what movie are you reviewing you what movie are you reviewing the creator? Okay, I didn't even know that's a movie I thought that was just a Person. Okay Tim what were you what were you saying?

It was a it was a sci-fi movie that came out about what we thought was going to be a discussion about AI but it actually wasn't. It was more a discussion of. You know, oh. How would you say it Tim. It was it was.

Yeah, I wouldn't being destroyed by war and colonization and that kind of stuff.

Yeah, I wouldn't even say it was a discussion more like a declaration. They they they just put the military culture and their crosshairs and and. Let loose with both barrels.

All right.

So it made it a point where we actually had the opportunity to talk about Israel and Hamas and the Palestinians. In the in the process of the discussion because it it came up. There you go. Yeah, you'll have to wait until we get it edited and posted so you can hear what that's special.

So that's are you just watching podcast just so you know, okay, Tim you started saying something earlier. I Don't remember what it was. It was that good. All right. Yep. It was clearly very important.

No, actually, it's it's not you know as we get older Tim. It's not about how important is it's just. Man, the the the thoughts come and go just that quickly. But don't worry. Three o 'clock in the morning.

You're gonna remember.

Garrett you'd read Ezekiel 37. Do you not see that as fully fulfilled in? The return of Israel from Babylon and the subsequent Birth and death and resurrection of Christ.

Well, I think that here let me look here. I don't and I'll tell you why because in in context it talks about other things that still haven't happened. Like in in is equal Ezekiel 38 when he's talking to him against Gog and Meshach and tubal and the The coming war with Persia Kush and put and so it's in context of things yet to come.

But I also only think it's partially fulfilled. But I do think it's clearly fulfilled prophecy. That Israel came back and was restored and that the people were brought back to the land. Aside from the fact that you know, it was through British Interaction and and the workings of men who weren't necessarily for the people even I think God still showed his power in that.

Okay, so let me let me press that a bit Garrett and ask it this way is.

If.

God was to allow Hamas Hezbollah to To they go to war and wipe out Israel. Would that then change your view?

No, I think that God bringing them back was still fulfilled prophecy. Okay, I also though do not believe there's any evidence that that Israel will be wiped out again. Okay? Yeah, cuz I mean, I look Lee.

I don't see any place where that happens. And I think that whether or not this is moving towards the very final conflict God is gonna show his great power in that final conflict and wipe out all of his enemies in that area.

But I don't see biblically where Hamas or Palestine or Gog or Persia or any of those kingdoms would take over Israel again.

Okay, I.

Mean because I Don't know the future, right? So It could be that God take gets rid of Israel and then brings them back at a future time. Yeah, sure I don't say that can't happen.

Justice, Media Myths, and the Moral Status of Hamas

So.

Let's talk if we could about. When we think about this issue I brought up the idea of justice right, so you're Garrett you're bringing up some scripture that's specific to the nation of Israel covenants that God made with them and I do know that even though we may be in agreement here even with with Tim There are there's other covenant theologians that would that would disagree, right?

So.

Even for them, I think there we can one area we can all agree to is the issue of justice. We are hearing a lot of of rhetoric. And and some would say on both sides It's it's quite interesting that people have said that Netanyahu is behind all this.

I Find that very interesting and the argument goes like this. Because there this is a fact I was just in Israel in February February and there was a great amount of division with Netanyahu the way he has done things there was just there was a lot of opposition.

You had the National Guard refusing to be called up for service Before October 7th, and that's radically changed now. Everybody is behind Netanyahu temporarily the nobody questioned you know coming getting up and serving people are Returning to service even though they're not in the National Guard or their version of it.

So you have You have a lot of unity right now there people are trying to see Netanyahu allowed this. How would all these people get in without you know, then yeah who allowing it so You have a lot of blame on both sides a lot of rhetoric and and propaganda on both sides.

Because that's what happens in warfare. Okay, so I Recognize that both sides are gonna do some of that. So can we determine that one side is just and another unjust? Tim I'm gonna I'm gonna start with you because I I think you if I'm not mistaken I think you were the one that referred to this as an evil.

Yeah, I.

Want to start by cautioning. Especially in American politics we have this habit of making everything binary it either is or it isn't and. To an extent that's true, but in many cases There's a lot of responsibility on on both sides.

And I think that is also the case with Israel. Israel's the the government of Israel could certainly have done many things very differently. That could have helped head off some of.

The.

You know the hate that there's the anti-semitism that they're seeing.

But.

What Hamas did? Particularly on October 7th really is pure evil and especially from my military veteran and military intelligence Experience I look at this and I go Israel does not have a choice but to do what it is doing and People who are talking about, you know, all the civilians who are are dying that is 100 on Hamas not on Israel.

Hamas is well known well documented for putting command centers and missile launchers Under hospitals and in schools and every time that Israel takes an action to Eliminate one of those targets and innocent innocent civilians are killed.

It's on Hamas not on Israel, so I think if anybody is it, you know on the scale of just versus unjust Israel is far far far in Balance on the justice side in this particular this particular case. I'd love to see More love come out of this.

I was looking at Pew Research statistics earlier today on on.

How.

Israel how the Jews in Israel break down. Certain topics and there's lots of opportunity for growth there. But when it comes to the question of justice Hamas made it. If This Israel action had happened without October 7th. I wouldn't be a certain.

But with October 7th in there, I I can say wholeheartedly Israel is Almost entirely just in in what they're doing.

Rebecca let me throw this same thing to you. I know you have a heart for Israel before this. Just listening to one little candle podcast and so I Already know because I listen your podcast I know your position, but do you think there's a side that is just in a side that's unjust and how could we support that?