A Christian View of Israel and Hamas

Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report

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See website for details. Welcome to Theology Throwdown!

01:14

We, the Christian podcast community of podcasters, gather to discuss our theological differences with love and charity.

01:23

This is a ministry of striving for eternity. Welcome to another edition of Theology Throwdown.

01:43

This is where we, all those that are part of the Christian podcast community, get together and talk about, well, sometimes our theological differences.

01:51

Sometimes we agree. But in either way, we're hopefully going to do it in love and charity.

01:58

And so, if you're not familiar with the Christian podcast community, have you been hiding under a rock?

02:04

What is wrong with you people? Go to christianpodcastcommunity .org. We have over 50 vetted podcasts.

02:12

We produce about 40 hours of content a week. So we got something you will enjoy listening to, and probably more than you're going to get a chance to listen to in a week.

02:23

Just saying. I do listen to all 40 hours, and I listen at triple speed. That's how

02:28

I get it done. But we're going to let each of the people here introduce themselves, give a little bit about their podcast.

02:36

And tonight's topic is going to be the current situation in Israel with Hamas.

02:42

And what is a Christian to do about it? What should be a Christian view? Is there a right and a wrong?

02:48

Are both sides wrong? Is there any way that we can figure out who's the just and the unjust in this situation?

02:56

And do we let the culture define these things? So let us start off with, well,

03:03

Rebecca, you were the first one in tonight. Nope, sorry. I think Garrett was. But I can't remember.

03:08

So we'll start with Rebecca. Ladies first. We'll start with Rebecca then. Rebecca, introduce yourself and your podcast so people know your voice and your podcast.

03:16

Yeah. Hi, I'm Rebecca Birschwinger, and I am the host of One Little Candle podcast. My podcast is a place where believers can come and be empowered and encouraged to be the light that God called us to be a witness for God and to make a difference in their corner of the world, no matter how small their sphere of influence may or may not seem.

03:39

The show explores various issues and topics that impact the world around us and our faith.

03:46

And so at the end of every episode, I provide the listener with practical guidelines for responding to those issues and then applying their

03:57

Christian principles to their everyday lives. And I will say that if you are interested in the topic tonight, you may want to be checking out

04:07

Rebecca's One Little Candle podcast. She has dealt with Israel several times, even before October 7th.

04:13

So it's not that she was just doing it because of that. So you'll find a lot of good information there.

04:20

Next up, Garrett. I'm Garrett Hampton. I'm the producer of the Schoolhouse Rocked podcast and the director of Schoolhouse Rocked The Homeschool Revolution, which is now available to stream free on the

04:34

Internet if you go to schoolhouserockedmovie .com. And we have a ministry to Christian homeschooling parents and those who think they maybe can't do it.

04:45

We love to encourage you guys that it is your responsibility as parents to be discipling the hearts of your kids.

04:53

All right. There's no homeschoolers out there anyway. I mean, really.

04:59

As of this year, it's now the fastest growing form of education in the United States. Yeah. I was actually seeing a thing recently that the liberals, that is, are upset because the number of blacks that are now homeschooling has gone up astronomically, and they don't know what to do about it.

05:19

How about you start educating people? They won't allow school choice. So parents during COVID went, wait, now that I know what the teachers in school are doing,

05:30

I know I could do better. Yeah. The ultimate form of school choice is pulling your kids out.

05:37

Yeah. And in every state we can do that currently. There are different laws that have to do with homeschooling in every state.

05:44

But in all 50 states, parents have the right to teach their own children. Yeah. And it is an interesting thing.

05:52

I don't know if you saw the video. There was a video of a black mother who goes into the classroom, and the history teacher just has a big

06:00

LGBT flag up, and she rips it down and throws it in the trash. And she's like, you're supposed to be teaching history.

06:09

I raise my boys to be men, and they got to learn history here, not your political agenda.

06:16

It was like, wow, okay. They called security on her. All right. So next up, one of the—

06:23

Eve Franklin, who I think has attended more of these than anyone, I think, Eve, you've only missed one theology throwdown, if I'm not mistaken.

06:32

I believe so. Yesterday would have been the second, but we moved it. But we had to move it because, well, someone,

06:39

Andrew, screwed up. So Eve, introduce your podcast and your voice so people know you.

06:47

Certainly. I am Eve Franklin. I'm one of the co -hosts of Are You Just Watching? And we just basically talk about secular entertainment from a

06:56

Christian worldview. And tonight, I'm actually joined by my co -host, Tim Martin, and I'll let him introduce himself.

07:06

Hi, all. I am, as Eve said, Tim Martin. I am the Ed McMahon to Eve's Johnny Carson on Are You Just Watching?

07:16

And I usually—actually, I think I'm the opposite of Eve. I've only made one other one before tonight because I usually have a conflict for the meeting.

07:28

But it's a pleasure to be here, especially with a topic so important.

07:34

I'm looking forward to the discussion. And I am Andrew Rappaport. I am the host of Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report.

07:41

That's Rapp with two Ps. Just go look for Rapp Report with two Ps. And I'm also the host of Apologetics Live.

07:49

That's a live show Thursday nights. You can come in, ask any question about God and the

07:55

Bible, because I can answer any question you have about God and the Bible. And if you doubt that, go to ApologeticsLive .com

08:02

Thursday nights, 8 o 'clock Eastern Time. Give me your toughest question. And when I say,

08:08

I don't know, just remember that's a perfectly good answer. I said

08:14

I can answer any question. I didn't say I'm going to give an answer other than I don't know. Just saying. So those are mine.

08:21

I am the executive director of the Christian Podcast Community. And so with that, let's get into our topic.

08:27

And I should say for full disclosure with this topic, since this comes up, people have accused me of support for Israel because I'm a dispensationalist.

08:39

I do not support Israel because I'm a dispensationalist. I support Israel because I'm an

08:45

Israeli. I'm an Israelite. I am from the tribe of Levi. That is why

08:51

I support Israel. So it doesn't have to do with my theological position. It has to do with, well,

08:56

I was raised Jewish. So there's a lot of discussion going on, folks.

09:02

And I'm going to open this first question up to anyone who wants to start. But there's been a lot that we have seen dealing with Israel.

09:12

Initially, after October 7th, there was a lot of support for Israel, even from liberals.

09:20

I was surprised by that. I didn't think it was going to last long, and it didn't. It only took about a week. And week by week, we're seeing more and more pressure against Israel, more and more anti -Semitism, more and more attacks saying that Israel is in the wrong, they're oppressors, they're colonialists, this is an apartheid, all these type of things.

09:46

So my first question, kind of an open -ended question, is what should a

09:53

Christian think about this situation? How should we view the situation there, just in a general sense, even if you want to give high -level views without giving the specifics, but how as Christians should we address when we have something like this happening in our culture?

10:14

Well, our first reaction should be to see what God's word says about it and what

10:19

God feels about it himself. It's great to look at history, and I think history actually stands in defense of Israel here.

10:29

But aside from history, as Christians, we should be biblically minded and have a mind of God. And so our first concern should be to seek out what he says in his word about the situation.

10:41

And it's very clear he speaks clearly to the situation. All right, anyone else with the – go ahead,

10:49

Tim. When you say he speaks clearly to the situation, do you have any particular references in mind?

10:55

I was going to ask that. I'm going to ask you to hold it because I was going to ask that because I was curious,

11:04

Tim, as well. That was my high -level view, but I've got a big old list of Scripture tonight.

11:10

And honestly, if I only read tonight, that would be plenty. And anyone else, you know, how should

11:19

Christians – I mean, obviously, you know, Garrett gave us the Sunday school answer, the Bible, right?

11:24

That's answer number two. It's Jesus and then the Bible. But what we need to understand is as a church currently, that Sunday school answer is just broadly ignored sometimes.

11:38

Christians, quote -unquote, don't think biblically in many cases, and so it's worth repeating that Sunday school answer.

11:47

True. Tim, you had something you want to say? Yeah, I just want to – I think that Christians, like everyone in the world right now, should be looking at the acts of pure evil executed by the

12:02

Hamas soldiers on October 7th and should recognize it for what it is, evil at the very basest form.

12:16

And when you compare what they did to the founding charters and the history of Hamas, nobody should really be surprised.

12:29

We see a great deal of sin in the world, and this is just, you know, the vinegar and baking soda volcano flowing over of the cooking pot that is

12:44

Gaza and West Bank and the heights,

12:51

Golan Heights. So I think we should be looking at the acts as the evil that they are but constantly remembering that there are innocents, you know, that nobody is really innocent, but there are people who are not militant.

13:12

There are people who are not antagonists who are caught in the middle, and we should be praying for them on both sides, both believers and nonbelievers.

13:23

Good point. Rebecca or Eve, want to weigh in on this? I'm sure Rebecca does. Sure. I am, you know, given all the hullabaloo that's focusing on Israel and Palestine as believers, especially when it comes to the anti -Semitism and all the pro -Palestinian rallies and things that are happening, which

13:47

I think a lot of it is simply rooted in ignorance. But I think as Christians, it's important that, as Garrett said, we need to know what

13:56

God has to say about it, I think biblically, but I think we need to really educate ourselves both biblically and through history so that we can give an informed response and answer to people.

14:10

And I think a lot of Christians really don't know a whole lot about it, so I think we need to.

14:19

Eve, want to weigh in on this one? I've just been sitting back and sort of educating myself on this.

14:25

I've been raised to believe one way very strongly, but, you know, that you have to support

14:31

Israel as a Christian no matter what, and I've kind of been moderating that position somewhat because I think as Christians we should be more concerned for the souls that are lost than the blood that is spilled and who's shedding the blood because all in all, the vast majority of people on both sides are unsaved, and we should be concerned about the souls more than anything.

14:59

Yeah, and I, you know, I'll start with taking where Garrett started and go a little bit deeper in that, and then we'll get to his scripture, but I would say, yeah, we start with scripture, but more specifically the area of justice, and I can turn to the many, many, many scriptures that talk about justice, and what

15:21

I'm going to do is look at this situation, and the question I'm going to ask is, is one side just and is another side unjust, or are they both unjust?

15:32

Obviously both can't be just, right? So I'm looking for justice here.

15:40

What is the right thing? Because I know that that's where God is going to be behind. However, let me also say

15:46

I just recorded an episode on this same topic on my

15:52

Rap Report podcast with Dr. Michael Brown, another Jewish believer, and so we discuss the situation.

16:00

We give a lot of the history, and it's always bad to give the end of the story, but I will do that here.

16:08

That doesn't mean you shouldn't go listen to the rest of the podcast because you don't want to miss all the great content, but I concluded with having the view that I think we do have to have as believers, sort of where Eve was going, is the fact that many of the people, both in Israel and Gaza, are not believers.

16:30

And so the question, is it God's will for there to be war in Israel right now?

16:37

Yes, that's God's will. Andrew, how do you know that? Because it's happening.

16:44

That's how I know, because God's sovereign, and it's happening. So, yeah, God is allowing this to happen.

16:51

So as Christians, we now have to ask the question, why? Why is he? And I put this argument forth, and this is something

16:58

I'm praying toward. I hope that you as a listener will pray toward this as well, but my prayer is not that some human being will work out a peace deal to resolve the issue between Israel and the

17:13

Palestinians, or maybe more specific, those in Gaza. I'll explain maybe later in the show why

17:19

I don't use the term Palestinian the way it's used today. But what we see is, can you picture what would happen if the gospel went forth in Israel and Gaza, and Jewish people start getting saved in Israel, and Muslim people start getting saved in Gaza, and they start coming together and working together.

17:43

Can you picture what the rest of the world would be doing if all of a sudden it's because of the gospel of Jesus Christ that there's peace in Israel?

17:53

God would get all the credit for that. The rest of the world would be going, wait, wait, how did this happen? And maybe it could create a revival that would go around the world.

18:01

Instead of people thinking there's going to be a world war, why don't we pray that the gospel goes forth and that there be a revival there?

18:07

That's my thoughts. So, Garrett, I'm going to throw this back to you now with Tim's question, which was going to be the thing

18:14

I was going to throw at you anyway since you mentioned it. You just said, hey, here I am,

18:20

I'm going to open this up so I get to be the guy giving all the scripture. So go for it.

18:25

Give your biblical argument. Yeah, I'm going to start with a list real quick of scriptures that I think are really applicable.

18:33

The first should be, I think, a quick look at Ishmael and who he was and who he would be in Genesis 16.

18:43

And then Genesis 17, 26, and 28, we look at God's promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and his everlasting covenant that he establishes, which includes the land.

18:57

And so, I mean, just from a historical situation, we understand that that land is a part of a covenant and the people are a part of a covenant.

19:06

And they also have an enemy that goes back for thousands of years and who were promised in the word will be a persistent enemy to them.

19:18

We also need to look, I think, at Ezekiel 37, 38, and 39 at some of the prophecies about some of the conflicts that would come to this area.

19:28

And then I think it's also important to look at what's to come. And Jesus talks about this, what's coming in the end times to this area in Matthew 24, and that account is repeated in the other gospels.

19:42

And then Israel's also referenced all through Revelation. So definitely, we've got some scripture to look at.

19:52

If you want me to kick it off, I'd love to kick it off with Genesis 17.

19:59

I think this is a good place to start. Before we get to whether or not the gospel will go forth in this, because I do think that this conflict is a great opportunity for the gospel,

20:12

I do think we need to look at the historical perspective first. And so I'd love to start with Genesis 17, 7.

20:19

And God says here, And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant to be

20:32

God to you and to your offspring after you. And I will give you and your offspring after you the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession, and I will be their

20:45

God. And this comes just after God says that he will multiply them and make them a great nation and the father of a multitude of nations.

20:58

And that he's going to make him fruitful and bless him. And also we understand through that, that we would be blessed if we bless that people, and we would be cursed if we curse that people.

21:11

Okay, so I'm not sure what Tim's position would be on this, but I'm going to put my covenant theologian hat on, since I don't know if there's anyone here who holds to that here.

21:22

It just happens to be. Tim, I'm not sure your position, if you're more dispensational, covenant theologian, or something in between.

21:28

I am definitely heavy on the covenant theologian side. Oh, okay, so then I'm going to make your argument, and we'll see how good

21:34

I do. So, Garrett, from a covenant theology perspective, they would say, everyone said we would say, but I wouldn't be in this camp.

21:44

Tim would say that Israel was fulfilled in the church, that everlasting covenant is now the church.

21:56

What say you? Yeah, I'm glad that you brought this up early, and it's one of the reasons last night

22:03

I was kind of glad the show got postponed, because I got to dig, because I knew this argument would come up.

22:10

And so what I did was, first of all, I started with that everlasting covenant verse, because God was the unilateral establisher of the covenant, and it's up to him to determine when it's fulfilled and whether or not it continues.

22:26

And he does say it would be an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his offspring. So then the only argument could be, well, are we his replacement offspring in the church?

22:38

But the beauty of God's word is it doesn't start with Genesis. It goes all the way through Revelation.

22:44

And in Revelation, one of the things that's really, really interesting is that the people of Israel and the land of Israel pursue throughout

22:54

Scripture. And in Revelation, what God does is really neat, is that in certain cases, he separates

23:01

Israel, even the 12 tribes, from the church. And so we understand that even if there's a separate covenant or a new covenant, which we know there's a new covenant with the church, we also understand that some parts at least of this covenant with Israel persist all the way through to the end times.

23:22

And one of the lovely pictures I want to bring out is that when God establishes his throne to reign for the millennia, right, he doesn't do it in the new

23:33

Lancaster, California, or the new New Jersey. He does it in the new Jerusalem.

23:39

And we see that God very clearly has a heart for the land and a heart for the people all the way through his reign for eternity.

23:51

What do you think, Tim, is the covenant theologian? You may disagree.

24:00

He's on mute. Okay. There we go. Yeah. I don't use Zoom very often, so I wasn't sure if that was a push to talk or not.

24:09

So I would say that the argument is still absolutely valid.

24:19

In Reformed theology, we have the already but not yet concept, and we can't assume that the nonbelievers in Israel or in Gaza, anywhere in the

24:41

Middle East or anywhere at all for that matter, will not be Christians. And in fact,

24:48

Paul makes clear in Romans 11 that even with covenant theology, the church, excuse me, the nation of Israel still serves a very specific purpose.

24:59

From a covenant perspective, though, we are children of Abraham because we have joined the family of Christ.

25:12

By accepting Christ as our Savior and acknowledging our need for his forgiveness of our sins, we're adopted into his family.

25:23

So we're still non -Jewish Christians are every bit members of the nation of Israel, the offspring of Abraham.

25:37

So I would say that, Garrett, you didn't say anything wrong.

25:45

But beyond that, I would say that non -Christian

25:51

Israelis are deserving of the exact same respect and love that every non -Christian in the world who is blind because they're not imbibed by the

26:06

Spirit, you know, that they should get as well. Yeah.

26:14

Yeah, and I think that there is a view that many Christians have that somehow, you know, kind of like Eve said, a lot of Christians, especially in more of the dispensational camp, are kind of like raised or taught that, well,

26:31

Israel's special and we're the nation of Israel. And I think that's why there was so many in 1948 that I think dispensationalism was kind of on a rise because Israel became a nation.

26:43

But that, I mean, we should not, our theology should not be affected by whether Israel is or is not a nation.

26:50

Okay? It should be affected because we are interpreting God's Word and we're coming to conclusions from that alone.

26:57

Yeah. I would like to clarify that Israel is special, but Israel is not the only recipient of the

27:06

Abrahamic covenant. Yeah. Yeah, agreed. One of the things I'd love to say on that note, though, is the fact that Israel is a nation should actually inform some of our theology because there's prophecy that Israel would be restored as a nation.

27:24

And so if anything, it should confirm our belief in God and the belief in his scripture.

27:30

That was prophesied a long time ago, and I believe that it was important and intended by God that they should be a nation again.

27:39

Yeah. And I mean, I think that, you know, so I had someone who had asked me point blank and said, do you think that the state of Israel in 1948 and what's happening in Israel today, do you believe that that is a fulfillment of prophecy?

28:03

And I said, no. Because I don't know, right? Give me 2 ,000 years and maybe

28:09

I'll know then, right? After it happens, I would know. But the reality is that I said,

28:18

I can't say it's the fulfillment of prophecy yet, but I can tell you it's God's will. And he was like, well, how could you say that?

28:25

I said, because they're there, because there's a state of Israel. And he was like, okay,

28:30

I can agree with that. So, you know. Yeah. Can I read just a short piece of scripture here?

28:36

No, you can't do that on a Christian program. Ezekiel 39, 27.

28:43

When I've brought them back from the peoples and gathered them from their enemies' lands and through them have vindicated my holiness in the sight of many nations, then they shall know that I am the

28:55

Lord their God because I sent them into exile among the nations and then assembled them into their own land.

29:01

I will leave none of them remaining among the nations anymore and I will not hide my face anymore from them when

29:09

I pour out my spirit upon the house of Israel, declares the Lord God. And I think that's actually a prophecy that has only been partially fulfilled, but I do think their restoration as a land was included in that prophecy.

29:23

But it says this. One, I will leave none of them remaining in the nations anymore.

29:29

Well, clearly that's not the case. And it says then, well, let me go back to then they shall know that I am the

29:38

Lord their God because I sent them into exile and then assembled them into their own land.

29:43

And I think what's clear here is that even the restoration of that nation points to God's power and glory and is a testimony to the nations, but it's also meant to be a testimony to the

29:56

Jewish people who haven't yet accepted that. All right, let me ask, it seems that Rebecca and Eve are the more quiet ones tonight.

30:09

See if they would like to contribute anything to that, to what we've discussed so far. Okay, that's silence.

30:19

Yeah, I don't have anything to add, sorry. We can edit out the silence.

30:29

See, unlike Tim and Eve, this show we don't do much editing because we put the video out.

30:35

You can't do any bloopers or make any, no mistakes on this. And we'll have to see.

30:42

There was rumor before we went live, there's rumor that maybe on the, are you just watching, there was some disagreement between Tim and Eve on this issue, maybe.

30:52

So we'll have to wait to see. We'll have to wait to hear, I should say. Make it edited out of there.

30:58

Who knows? We'll see. What movie are you reviewing?

31:04

What movie are you reviewing? The Creator. Okay, I didn't even know that's a movie.

31:12

I thought that was just a person. Okay, Tim, what were you saying?

31:19

Well, it was a sci -fi movie that came out about what we thought was gonna be a discussion about AI, but it actually wasn't.

31:28

It was more a discussion of you know, how would you say it,

31:35

Tim? It was more about people being destroyed by war and colonization and that kind of stuff.

31:42

Yeah, I wouldn't even say it was a discussion, more like a declaration. Yeah. They just put the military culture in their crosshairs and let loose with both barrels.

31:58

All right. So it made it a point where we actually had the opportunity to talk about Israel and Hamas and the

32:07

Palestinians in the process of the discussion because it came up. There you go.

32:14

Yeah, you'll have to wait until we get it edited and posted so you can hear what that discussion was. So it's, are you just watching podcast?

32:20

Just so you know. Okay, Tim, you started saying something earlier. I did, but I don't remember what it was.

32:26

It was that good. All right. Yep, it was clearly very important. No, actually, it's not, you know, as we get older,

32:33

Tim, it's not about how important it is. It's just, man, the thoughts come and go just that quickly.

32:40

But don't worry. Three o 'clock in the morning, you're going to remember. Garrett, you read

32:47

Ezekiel 37. Do you not see that as fully fulfilled in the return of Israel from Babylon and the subsequent birth and death and resurrection of Christ?

33:02

Well, I think that, here, let me look here. I don't, and I'll tell you why. Because in context, it talks about other things that still haven't happened.

33:14

Like in Ezekiel 38, when he's talking against Gog and Meshach and Tubal and the coming war with Persia, Cush, and Put.

33:28

And so it's in context of things yet to come. But I also only think it's partially fulfilled.

33:36

But I do think it's clearly fulfilled prophecy that Israel came back and was restored and that the people were brought back to the land.

33:45

Aside from the fact that, you know, it was through British interaction and the workings of men who weren't necessarily for the people even.

33:55

I think God still showed his power in that. Okay, so let me press that a bit,

34:01

Garrett, and ask it this way, is if God was to allow

34:07

Hamas, Hezbollah to, they go to war and wipe out

34:13

Israel, would that then change your view? No, I think that God bringing them back was still fulfilled prophecy.

34:23

I also, though, do not believe there's any evidence that Israel will be wiped out again.

34:29

Okay. I don't see any place where that happens. And I think that whether or not this is moving towards the very final conflict,

34:41

God is going to show his great power in that final conflict and wipe out all of his enemies in that area.

34:48

But I don't see biblically where Hamas or Palestine or Gog or Persia or any of those kingdoms would take over Israel again.

34:58

Okay. I mean, because I don't know the future, right?

35:04

So it could be that God gets rid of Israel and then brings them back at a future time.

35:10

Sure. I don't say that can't happen. So let's talk, if we could, about when we think about this issue,

35:20

I brought up the idea of justice, right? So Garrett, you're bringing up some scripture that's specific to the nation of Israel, covenants that God made with them.

35:32

And I do know that even though we may be in agreement here, even with Tim, there's other covenant theologians that would disagree, right?

35:45

So even for them, I think one area we can all agree to is the issue of justice.

35:55

We are hearing a lot of rhetoric, and some would say on both sides.

36:03

It's quite interesting that people have said that Netanyahu is behind all this.

36:09

I find that very interesting. And the argument goes like this, because this is a fact.

36:15

I was just in Israel in February, and there was a great amount of division with Netanyahu, the way he has done things.

36:27

There was a lot of opposition. You had the National Guard refusing to be called up for service before October 7th.

36:37

And that's radically changed. Now everybody is behind Netanyahu temporarily. Nobody questioned getting up and serving.

36:49

People are returning to service, even though they're not in the National Guard or their version of it.

36:55

So you have a lot of unity right now there.

37:01

People are trying to say, see, Netanyahu allowed this. How would all these people get in without Netanyahu allowing it?

37:07

So you have a lot of blame on both sides, a lot of rhetoric and propaganda on both sides, because that's what happens in warfare.

37:19

So I recognize that both sides are going to do some of that. So can we determine that one side is just and another unjust?

37:31

Tim, I'm going to start with you, because I think you, if I'm not mistaken, I think you were the one that referred to this as an evil.

37:39

Yeah. I want to start by cautioning, especially in American politics, we have this habit of making everything binary.

37:52

It either is or it isn't. And to an extent, that's true.

37:58

But in many cases, there's a lot of responsibility on both sides.

38:05

And I think that is also the case with Israel. Israel, the government of Israel could certainly have done many things very differently that could have helped head off some of the, you know, the hate that there's the anti -Semitism that they're seeing.

38:29

But what Hamas did, particularly on October 7th, really is pure evil.

38:39

And especially from my military veteran and military intelligence experience,

38:47

I look at this and I go, Israel does not have a choice but to do what it is doing.

38:55

And people who are talking about, you know, all the civilians who are dying, that is 100 % on Hamas, not on Israel.

39:08

Hamas is well known, well documented for putting command centers and missile launchers under hospitals and in schools.

39:20

And every time that Israel takes an action to eliminate one of those targets and innocent civilians are killed, it's on Hamas, not on Israel.

39:35

So I think if anybody is, you know, on the scale of just versus unjust, Israel is far, far, far in balance on the justice side in this particular case.

39:52

I'd love to see more love come out of this.

39:58

I was looking at Pew Research statistics earlier today on how the

40:07

Jews in Israel break down certain topics. And there's lots of opportunity for growth there.

40:15

But when it comes to the question of justice, Hamas made it. If this

40:21

Israel action had happened without October 7th, I wouldn't be as certain. But with October 7th in there,

40:29

I can say wholeheartedly, Israel is almost entirely just in what they're doing.

40:40

Rebecca, let me throw this same thing to you. I know you have a heart for Israel before this.

40:47

Just listening to one little candle podcast. And so I already know because I listen to your podcast,

40:56

I know your position. But do you think there's a side that is just and a side that's unjust? And how could we support that?

41:05

If I break up, please forgive me. I'm having a hard time hearing stuff. Yeah, Israel, look,

41:13

Israel isn't perfect. I know that for sure. I mean, I think they were running parallel to us in a lot of ways with the division in their society, their culture, their government.

41:26

But I totally agree on the fact that the blame is on Hamas.

41:32

I believe Israel is doing what Israel has to do because of what happened.

41:38

And I think what Israel is doing isn't honestly, in the long run, it's not just for Israel, it's for the rest of us.

41:45

I think we're all under the threat of terrorism at this point. So as far as in their response,

41:52

I feel their response is most certainly just. Any deaths, any innocent people,

42:01

I mean, I'm seeing Israel doing their best unless we're being fed a bunch of false information, and I don't believe we are.

42:10

Israel has been doing everything they can to get people out of the way, and Hamas has been trying to ensure that they're not out of the way.

42:17

And so we don't want to see people killed and injured who don't want this in this war.

42:27

Unfortunately, when you're responding to something as horrific as what Hamas did, you're going to have your casualties of war.

42:37

So I believe Israel's response is just. I don't in any way, shape, or form believe that they asked for this.

42:46

Okay, so let's deal with some of the things that we're saying Hamas did, because both you and Tim are saying that Israel is just and what

42:56

Hamas did was wrong. So what did Hamas do? Because not everyone is paying attention.

43:03

Definitely not in the colleges and universities. I had someone at church who said to me that they had someone they know from a good

43:13

Christian family, college student, who is now coming out in favor of Hamas and a free

43:20

Palestine, and they were confused by that. Like, how could they do this? Well, people are hearing a different issue that I do want to address in a bit with the myths that people have.

43:32

What Hamas did was, no uncertain terms we would refer to as war crimes.

43:42

Why would I say that? That's pretty harsh. Well, I would say that because one thing they did was they targeted, well, what

43:50

Tim said, innocent people, in other words, non -military. That is something that we have said is a war crime, that you don't target civilians.

44:00

Not only did they target them, and they made it clear they targeted them, they went to a music festival with the intent of killing and kidnapping people that were there.

44:11

They went through kibbutzes. Now, if you don't know what a kibbutz is, basically, they have these areas where people kind of live off the land in their own little community, and they went through the kibbutz and just slaughtered everybody.

44:26

They were kidnapping, raping, killing, even the grandmothers.

44:35

I mean, I'm not going to get too graphic, but they had gang raped one woman so bad that they broke her pelvis, gang raped a woman to death.

44:50

This is not something that is considered to be anything less than war crimes.

44:59

And so anybody that's supporting them, look, Hamas has been declared a terrorist organization.

45:05

And so it amazes me that anyone that's supporting them in Congress or in our government, by the laws of our own government, they should be removed from office for support of a terrorist organization.

45:20

And yet that isn't happening. And the irony, at the same time, they want to remove

45:26

President Trump from being able to be on a ballot because he asked people to go peacefully march, and they're saying that was code word for insurrection, which is really strange.

45:38

An insurrection where everyone forgot to bring their guns. In fact, there's people in jail right now because they left their guns in the hotels in Virginia and didn't bring it to the insurrection.

45:49

That's a strange thing. So as we look at this, this is what they did.

45:57

And I think that because who they targeted, and keep in mind,

46:03

I said this on my podcast, my wrap -up podcast with Michael Brown, you have to understand something.

46:09

Hamas doesn't have the weapons Israel has. They cannot win a war against Israel with weapons of warfare.

46:21

The weapon that Hamas uses is the Western media. That's their weapon.

46:28

And it's their weapon of choice. Hence why Tim said they put military bases in hospitals and mosques and schools so that when they're bombed, they go, oh, look at all the innocent life that happened.

46:40

No one's asked the question of how many innocent lives were not purposefully killed but was collateral damage in World War II or any of the other wars.

46:54

We don't hear that. But with this one, all of a sudden it's like Israel somehow is supposed to only kill the military while Hamas can target the non -military.

47:05

When I look at this as a justice, I look at that. Okay, so I'm going to give you guys a quiz so you guys can unmute.

47:17

Let's see who's quick to get some of these answers. Ready? We're going to answer some of the, what

47:25

I call myths that we're hearing in the media. Media myths. That's a good term for it. There we go.

47:32

We're going to address the media myths. All right, ready. See whose podcast gets the gold star.

47:42

All right. When did Israel, we'll start off easy, when did

47:49

Israel become a nation again? 1948. 1948.

47:55

Okay, one for one little candle. I think we've already addressed this, but what country was the land owned by or controlled by before 1948?

48:15

Britain. Britain. Okay. So when was the state of Palestine created?

48:24

Never. All right. Are you just watching for gold star? The Romans used that name as an insult in reference to the -

48:34

Philistines. Philistines, right. But it wasn't ever a nation and they're not the rightful owners of the land.

48:41

Okay, so now let me ask you this, and this one may be the tougher one. Before 1948, what were the

48:50

Jewish people referred to that lived in the area that we now call

48:55

Israel? No idea.

49:02

The answer is Palestinians. I was going to say that. I should have.

49:09

They were known as Palestinians. They were just a wild guess, but I guess.

49:16

Yeah, that was actually because they were - people forget that there were

49:21

Jewish people living in that region long before 1948.

49:28

In fact, in 1914, the Jewish people that lived in the area were partitioning the

49:36

UK to create a state of Israel for the people - for the

49:42

Israelis. The reality is that they - those talks started, and what happened?

49:49

Many of the Arab countries started sending in Arabs to the land that became known as Arab Palestinians versus Jewish Palestinians, and they both were in the land.

50:05

And there has been - throughout, I mean, look, that area was under, you know,

50:11

Roman control, you know, Jewish control, Muslim control. It's shifted hands.

50:18

But it was lastly in the control of the United Kingdom.

50:23

With that, we end up seeing that there were

50:29

Jewish people living there. And in fact, it was because the Jewish people started talking about creating a

50:34

Jewish state that we had so many Arabs moving in. So now, with that, can we say that someone was displaced in the wars?

50:49

Yeah. There's always people displaced by war. That's exactly right. In every war.

50:56

And so, some of those people are displaced because they left on their own. Some are displaced because they have no choice.

51:08

So, let me ask this. Where do - So, we have the case, Hamas is in Gaza telling people to stay in their buildings when

51:18

Israel's dropping pamphlets and calling people to say leave because we're going to bomb this building. What nation does that, by the way?

51:26

Warns people before they're going to bomb a place. And the Hamas leadership is telling people to stay.

51:32

So, here's a question for you. Another bonus question. Where does the Hamas leadership live?

51:41

Underground. Iran and Syria? Qatar? Qatar is the right answer.

51:47

They have offices in Qatar and Lebanon. Yeah. They don't live in Gaza. So, they don't have to live with the consequences of the decisions they're making.

51:58

Right? So, when we look at all of this, we see that Hamas is preventing people from leaving.

52:07

Hamas is the one that gets all the financial aid around the world. So, if there is, and I should mention this, let me ask this.

52:16

Who actually, what control does Israel have over Gaza?

52:23

Anyone know? Since they pulled out in 2005,

52:29

I think it was. They ceded all control. Correct. And then in 2007,

52:35

Hamas took essentially a coup of the democratically elected representatives and have forbidden elections ever since.

52:47

So, right there. And what I'm doing with this for the listeners is addressing the media myths.

52:57

Because as we're walking through this, you're seeing everything we're being told about this land isn't true.

53:04

Everything that, when you're at the water cooler at work or you're at school, you're in a college and people are talking about free

53:12

Palestine. Which Palestine? The Jewish Palestine that was there?

53:19

Or the Arab Palestine that came later? Or those that were displaced because of war?

53:24

Because there were, you know, people don't know this or don't think about this. We'll continue with our quiz.

53:32

Were there Jewish people living in the land of Gaza before 2005?

53:38

Yes. And were they forcibly removed by the Israeli government?

53:44

Yes. Yes. So, there was a displacement of Jewish people too. They didn't want to leave

53:50

Gaza. So, who is it that runs Gaza? Hamas.

53:57

Hamas. So, if there is oppression, who is it that is oppressing those living in Gaza?

54:07

Hamas. Hamas. You see, when we break this down, and this is why

54:12

I'm doing this, is because my thing, I've been on multiple podcasts and this is what

54:17

I'm doing with folks, is just breaking down the media myths. Just breaking this down to say everything we're being told about Gaza and Israel is make -believe.

54:27

When we look at the actual facts, we realize Hamas is the one in control. Hamas is the one that is preventing them from leaving.

54:37

Oh, wait. Not completely. Okay. What countries does

54:43

Gaza border? Egypt and Israel. Egypt and Israel.

54:49

Which border was those that live in Gaza, which border prior to October 7th, which border were they allowed to freely, for the most part, come and go?

55:02

Egypt, wasn't it? Nope. Oh, Israel. So, Egypt, which would be...

55:09

See, that's unfair. Are you just watching as two hosts here? They got two people getting...

55:17

So, what you have is Egypt doesn't open their gates. In fact, after October 7th, they prevented anyone from coming through.

55:28

They wouldn't allow any refugees. So, when we think about the argument is somehow

55:35

Israel has to open the gate to let refugees in. Otherwise, they're doing something wrong.

55:42

But the rest of the Arab world doesn't have to. Hmm, puzzling.

55:50

Many Palestinians went to Israel daily. That was their employment. Oh, yes.

55:55

And by the way, we also now know that some of those people that went into daily were reporting back, were spying for Hamas to say exactly how many people live in which houses and where they...

56:09

So, they were coming into Israel to do reconnaissance to see soft targets and things.

56:17

Yeah. And so, now when Israel doesn't let these people come back in to work, is there a good reason for that?

56:28

Yeah, because they don't know who the spies are. Yeah, and that's exactly what

56:34

I was speaking with Jonathan Feldstein from Genesis 1, 2, 3, and they had some

56:39

Palestinians that they considered quote -unquote friends who would come in and do some work for them and now they're not going to have them back because they don't know if they can trust them or not.

56:49

So, yeah. So, when we look at this... Okay, so, back to our quiz.

56:59

What does Israel provide for Gaza? Is there anything that they're still required to provide?

57:07

Didn't they provide electricity? Electricity and something else? Water. Water.

57:15

Now, not all of the water in Gaza is provided by Israel. I think it's only 5 or 10 percent, but the water that they provide is refined and filtered and better than what they are getting from the

57:28

Hamas leadership. Maybe it's because what Hamas is getting people to do is pull up the plumbing, all the pipes, and use them for missile launchers.

57:37

Yeah. So... Which is why they explode and fall on their own.

57:43

True. So, let me ask this. How much has Israel gotten paid for the electric and water since 2005?

57:53

Probably nothing. Yeah. So, when they cut off the electric and the water, and it's not cutting off all the water supply, it's just cutting off the water supply that Israel's providing, they're saying, oh, that's oppression.

58:09

Well, first off, I don't ever remember anyone making the argument that when we, in World War II, were cutting off the fuel lines for the

58:21

Germans, no one was calling us wrong for cutting off their supply lines. In fact, that was the purpose of doing what we did, right?

58:30

So that they would force them to be desperate without having food and fuel and things like that. And everyone's saying,

58:36

Israel still has to provide the electric and water still. So, here's a question.

58:43

Is there anything that stops Hamas, the leaders of Gaza, from working to generate their own electric and digging for their own water?

58:58

Yeah, the fact that they use all the money for terror. Yeah. There's nothing that stops them, right?

59:05

A majority of Hamas funding from within Gaza actually comes from their taxing of supplies that are brought in via tunnels from Egypt.

59:17

So, they're making it harder for Gaza to get supplies, not easier.

59:25

Yeah. Wasn't it when they handed over Gaza, didn't they leave actual functional infrastructure and it was the palace,

59:36

Hamas or whoever, in the Gaza Strip that stripped all of that down and destroyed it instead of actually making use of it?

59:45

That's what I've heard. Yeah, I don't think they destroyed all of it, but we do have the video where they ripped some of it up to launch missiles.

59:53

So, I don't know that we could say they've done all of it. So, as we examine this, and I'm hoping for the listener, even though we're kind of in a lot of agreement, even though I thought

01:00:09

I could, finding out Tim was a covenant theologian, that I could bait him into disagreement with Garrett, but it just didn't work.

01:00:16

We do these theology throw downs where we find we agree much more than we think. But I hope for you as a listener that you're hearing this and realizing what you hear on the news, what you hear at the water cooler at work or at college or schools, there's some differences.

01:00:34

What we're providing is factual information you can go look up. So, let me provide one more myth.

01:00:42

How many of the peace treaties where they tried to work out between Israel and Hamas or Israel and the

01:00:51

Palestinian leadership there, how many of those agreements did the

01:00:58

Palestinians accept? Zero. Yeah. Schoolhouse rocks for a gold star.

01:01:05

Zero. The Peel Accord, Israel was willing to do,

01:01:12

I mean, actually we could go back, but Israel was willing to do a two -state solution. I mean, this is before 1948.

01:01:20

They were willing to do that. And it was the Palestinian, the Arab Palestinians that rejected it.

01:01:28

They've rejected each one of them. Even to a point where with Barack Obama, they were trying to work to give up half of Jerusalem to Hezbollah.

01:01:39

And it was still rejected. They've given up the temple to the

01:01:44

Muslims, haven't they? Yeah. The temple mount. The temple mount is under Muslim control.

01:01:50

But in fact, well, okay, quiz. We'll do it as a quiz question. Is it legal to pray on the temple mount if you're not a

01:02:03

Muslim? No. Yeah. So they kind of have that control.

01:02:10

The temple mount's really interesting. It's not legal to pray at any mosque if you're not a Muslim. Yeah.

01:02:16

But they view the whole temple mount area as a mosque, pretty much, is their control.

01:02:24

And it's really interesting when you get there. When I was going through Israel, that was the one place of the greatest security was going on to temple mount.

01:02:35

Israel, the IDF has, you go through a bunch of security before you can enter in.

01:02:44

So it was the one place where they made me give up my gun. Oh, no, I'm just kidding. They let me carry that in.

01:02:56

See, I don't understand why everyone keeps talking a two -state solution, including our government officials, when the people that run

01:03:06

Gaza, Hamas, declare in their charter that they don't want, well, in their words, that any initiatives, proposals, and international conferences are a waste of time and an exercise in futility.

01:03:21

They openly state they don't want a two -state solution, so I'm not sure why people keep going back to that.

01:03:28

Because it sounds good, and they can say that Israel's in the wrong? I mean, that's why they do it, but the reality is, as we said,

01:03:37

Israel's the one that makes the agreements and are willing to give. I mean, what country wins a war and then gives the land up that they just fought to win?

01:03:45

Israel. They're the only ones. What country warns people before they're going to bomb places?

01:03:52

Israel. I mean, when we look at these things, it really is, as Tim said, it's very clear.

01:04:00

It really is clear -cut. Now, as Tim had alluded to, before October 7th, you could say, okay, there's a little bit on both sides, a give and take, but after October 7th, it really made things very clear on who's in the right and who's in the wrong in this situation.

01:04:19

You want to go in the past? It's like, okay, you can maybe argue the past and things, but here's a simple reality.

01:04:27

You know when we should have been calling for a ceasefire? October 7th.

01:04:34

Right? After this, I think this is reaction. Tim, you said it well. This is necessary now, and for Israel to declare that they have to wipe

01:04:46

Hamas out, let me ask it as a question, is that saying they want to wipe out all the

01:04:53

Palestinian Arabs? You can't just shake your head, Tim. The audience can't hear that.

01:05:00

Absolutely not. Hamas and Hezbollah are terrorist organizations, and when they say they're going to wipe out

01:05:08

Hamas, they're referring to the organization itself, and God willing, they will restore a democracy in Gaza.

01:05:23

And this is part of the reason that they live in Qatar, because Israel can't go bombing

01:05:28

Qatar. I mean, I still think you're going to see these leaders, you know, car accident or sudden natural causes, but that's the reality.

01:05:41

They live in another country so that Israel can't go in there. There's no justification for them to go into Qatar and start bombing, you know?

01:05:53

That would be unwise. Yeah, but see, that's why Hamas lives there, right?

01:06:00

I do want to stress that, you know, that especially college students, the ones who are saying free

01:06:08

Palestine, none of them were alive for actual war.

01:06:16

Desert Storm and the Gulf Wars, they weren't actually wars.

01:06:23

You have to go back to World War, well, you have to go back to Vietnam. And to really understand, and that's when media started showing the horrors, but they didn't show the horrors as a necessary evil.

01:06:41

They just showed it and said, you know, our men and women are, well, just men back then, are going into villages and shooting women and children, and they look for the sensationalism.

01:06:57

And that's what the college students and the free Hamas people are missing, is a perspective of how bad war really is.

01:07:10

So let me ask this question. The argument, as you're making, Timo, the argument of the college students that we're hearing a lot, not just college students, but from the left and others, is this idea that Israel should pause.

01:07:23

They should pause so that humanitarian aid can get in. They should pause so that people can get out, which by the way,

01:07:31

Israel did do. They did stop the bombing and they said, they provided the times they were going to stop bombing so people could leave if they needed to, or if they could or allowed to.

01:07:43

They've said that they'll do a ceasefire too if they get the hostages back. Yeah. Where are the hostages?

01:07:51

And the hostages, Hamas has made it really clear why they took hostages. So if Israel responds, they will kill the hostages.

01:07:59

Right. And you know, Israel has done prisoner exchanges in the past too, where they have released thousands of Muslim militants,

01:08:14

Hamas and Hezbollah, in exchange for a single or one or two

01:08:20

Israeli soldiers. And in some cases, even just the remains of Israeli soldiers.

01:08:27

Israel has bent over backwards to try and be accommodating.

01:08:36

And they really cannot do that anymore. They can't.

01:08:41

It would be a violation of the, we don't make deals with terrorists idea.

01:08:49

Well, you know, a lot of people are saying that if Israel continues, there's going to be the loss of life, loss of innocent life.

01:08:57

Oh yeah. So let me ask this question. If Israel doesn't wipe out Hamas, we go back to the way things were, does that prevent, based on past history, does that prevent the death, the loss of innocent life?

01:09:13

It guarantees it. If they do not wipe out Hamas, the enemy that deems

01:09:20

Israel destined for destruction and has a religious worldview that praises the destruction of Israel will continue to lob bombs over the wall and will continue to kill innocent civilians on the other side, or at least to target them.

01:09:37

And Israel will be forced to continually respond, which will just prolong the death.

01:09:45

Okay. So then let me ask this. If the situation would go back and all that, if the cry is there was loss of innocent life, why is there no cry for the loss of the

01:10:04

Israeli lives at the music festival? Right?

01:10:12

I think there's no cry because it's not, it doesn't serve the media's purpose.

01:10:21

It doesn't drive the news cycle. Yeah, it did for the first day. So when that occurred,

01:10:30

I was with my father. It was the last day before I left to come home and we sat and watched

01:10:38

CNN all day long because that's what he watches. And so sitting there and watching that was interesting because I was amazed that they supported

01:10:47

Israel. They were kind of defending Israel for a bit. I was like, wow, that won't last long.

01:10:53

But at the same time, they would have different leaders that were in opposition prior to October 7th to Netanyahu.

01:11:03

They were just trying to cause division. And leader after leader would sit there and say, yes,

01:11:09

I have differing views with Netanyahu, but now is not the time. And I think they were frustrated because of the unity that was in Israel.

01:11:20

And right now they have a new leadership where even Netanyahu's opposition is pulled in so that they could all work together for this.

01:11:29

And I think that that's something that we end up seeing. Until this war is over, there's going to be unity in Israel.

01:11:38

But I think until this war is over, you're going to continue to see the world turning on Israel.

01:11:46

So we saw the same thing in the United States just after 9 -11. The exact same thing.

01:11:53

I mean, you remember George W. Bush saying, if you're not with us, you're against us. But a year later, you know, there was a call for Americans to stop the war on terror, and then we pulled out of Afghanistan.

01:12:11

And if you go to New York to the 9 -11 museum there in New York where the

01:12:17

Twin Towers were, and you walk through that entire museum, do you know there's not one reference to Islam anywhere?

01:12:25

Not a single reference to the very reason all this happened. Right? So, okay, with all of this,

01:12:35

I want to come back to the question I asked in the beginning and get each of you to weigh in.

01:12:42

How should a Christian think about all this? Let's speak to that Christian who has maybe been hearing the pro -Palestinian side, hearing some of this for the first time, or the person that's been following up on all this and knows everything already.

01:13:03

We haven't taught them anything new. I mean, at least I got each of you on one question, which

01:13:08

I kind of figured my one bonus round was going to get, even though Rebecca was going to just throw it out there that Jewish people were

01:13:14

Palestinian. But this breaks it down for people, right?

01:13:19

And so when I look at this, I'm looking at this and I'll start and then let each of you guys take a shot what you want to say.

01:13:27

But as I said in the beginning, justice, the second, truth, right? When I'm looking at this,

01:13:33

I see Israel on the side of justice and truth and Hamas on the side of injustice and falsehoods.

01:13:40

And so for me, it's really easy to say which side I'm going to stand with and which side I'm going to support. And because of what happened, as Tim said,

01:13:48

I agree with Tim and say, Israel now has the ruling body of Israel has no choice but to put a permanent end to Hamas, not

01:13:59

Gaza, but to the leadership there. And to make it really clear that, you know, that they need to be working toward peace there.

01:14:10

For the next government, this is what happens to you. And I would argue that right after Hamas is done, they should turn and say,

01:14:17

Hezbollah, you're next. In my opinion. So I'll let any, who wants to go to answer that next?

01:14:28

Well, for me, I think it starts trying to get people to understand also that this isn't, it's not a political dispute.

01:14:36

It's not a land dispute. It's an extremist religious ideology is what this is all about.

01:14:43

So, you know, the solutions that people offer they're not part of it. But what

01:14:49

Eve said, you know, I go back to Eve, what she said when, as far as how Christians should think of this.

01:14:54

And of course, it's the gospel that's most important. You know, I was discussing this with my 21 -year -old son.

01:15:01

We were talking about it and these people that died these horrible deaths at the hands of Hamas.

01:15:09

You know, I think of how many of them died in their sin. And how awful, you know,

01:15:16

I said to my son, just how awful. And the fact that prayer needs to go out to all sides, including the terrorists, you know, as much as you first thought isn't, you know, you'd rather that they burned in hell.

01:15:34

But the fact of the matter is, they need our prayers too, that God will get to them and He will change their hearts.

01:15:41

I thought about the Apostle Paul, who kind of was a terrorist in his own right, back in the days of the early church, and what

01:15:48

God did with him. Eve, what do you think?

01:15:57

I return back to, I mean, what I said before, is that there are unsaved on both sides and we must be concerned about the souls.

01:16:07

And one of the points of disagreement that I think Tim and I had in our original discussion in our podcast was

01:16:17

I made the mistake of saying Palestinian elected Hamas or something like that.

01:16:24

I don't even remember how I phrased it. Spoilers! Yeah. But I don't necessarily hold the

01:16:33

Palestinian people completely responsible for Hamas. They have exacted a great deal of control.

01:16:42

But I also do believe that they do hold some responsibility for allowing them to reign supreme in their area.

01:16:51

And they need to revolt and throw out their government. If they don't want to be human shields until they perish, they bear some responsibility for stopping that.

01:17:04

And that's going to be hard when Hamas comes down really hard on any dissent.

01:17:13

And that comes from the fact that I am a Westerner where we still are allowed to protest and stand against our government.

01:17:21

And I definitely can see some of the fault in that belief.

01:17:27

But all in all, I do believe that as Christians, we should be at most concerned about the loss of unsaved life.

01:17:38

And as always, as Christians should always be our first and foremost, we should be concerned about humanitarian aid and helping the innocent in whatever way we can.

01:17:53

And I don't even know what that looks like in the midst of war because any aid you send into Gaza Strip is being used by Hamas.

01:18:01

So it doesn't get to the people that need it. And so there's definitely a lot of questions as to how we can help.

01:18:08

And it may just be we have to sit back, support Israel until there is a time where we can go in and help the innocents that have been destroyed by all of this.

01:18:21

And Eve, I'd hate to disappoint you, but in America, only one side gets to protest.

01:18:27

The other side gets put in jail for doing it. Just saying. All right, Garrett. Well, I'm going to go.

01:18:35

Here's the first throwdown. Are you ready? I do not believe the primary focus of this conflict should be the gospel.

01:18:43

I think that ultimately the gospel will go out and have its effect regardless of the outcome of this conflict.

01:18:51

And I do think that the gospel will have an effect because of the outcome of this conflict.

01:18:57

But I also think that practically the gospel is hindered when there's continual unrest and killing in this area.

01:19:08

And so I think Israel has a right and a duty as a sovereign nation to deal with the conflict appropriately.

01:19:16

One of the comical things we see going on is we see these pro -Palestinian protesters calling

01:19:24

Israel occupiers. And when you look at this region and when you look at it biblically, you understand

01:19:32

Israel is an occupied nation. They're not the occupiers.

01:19:38

And so I think ultimately the gospel is most effective when Israel takes care of its practical sovereign duty to fight a people group who has a worldview that seeks the destruction of them.

01:19:53

And ultimately I think when we as Christians are obedient to God's word and we look at this biblically, it'll be a testimony to the nations, to the

01:20:04

Muslims who could be saved through this, to the Jews who could be saved through this, and to the

01:20:10

Westerners who are over here climbing the gates of the

01:20:15

White House and protesting in favor of terrorists. I think still biblically we have to look at this and say, what does

01:20:24

God intend for the nation? Should they have a right to defend themselves? And what will that outcome be after the fact?

01:20:33

And ultimately I don't believe there can be a two -state solution. I don't believe there can ever be peace when

01:20:39

Israel's occupied by people who seek the destruction of the Jews and of Christians.

01:20:45

And so ultimately I think the gospel is served if justice is served and if Israel does its duty militarily.

01:20:55

Okay, so Garrett, I agree with what you're saying as far as Israel, but with the question of how should the

01:21:01

Christian view this, right? Do you disagree with what you've said then?

01:21:07

From a Christian perspective, shouldn't we be concerned with the gospel? Certainly.

01:21:12

And ultimately that is always our concern, but practically sometimes—

01:21:19

I'm going to take a sidetrack for a second. I am always primarily concerned with the gospel, but some days that looks like me getting up and mowing the lawn, right?

01:21:31

We always still have to do our thing and steward our time properly and steward our resources properly, and God establishes governments for rewarding the good and punishing the evildoer.

01:21:46

And God, whether anybody likes it or not, God established Israel as a nation at this time, and they have a practical duty to serve their role.

01:21:57

And ultimately I do think that serves the gospel. I think that right now the gospel looks like establishing peace through a wildly asymmetrical military response and deoccupying the land so that peace can be there and the gospel can go forth.

01:22:18

And ultimately, practically, too, I will say I understand biblically that there will never be full peace in Israel until the very end.

01:22:33

So, Tim, let's have your thoughts. First off, I want to say

01:22:38

I agree with Garrett 100%. For a

01:22:44

Christian response, I don't think there is any more response than a

01:22:51

Christian can have other than to continue to witness, to continue to evangelize.

01:22:59

We should evaluate the news in the light of Scripture, and we should be reacting in imitation of Christ.

01:23:11

And that applies both to Israel and Gaza and Ukraine and Russia and to shootings in Chicago.

01:23:21

It's all the same. We should be the members of God's family that we're called to be, the prophets, priests, and kings.

01:23:37

And we should evaluate Israel's actions in light of Scripture just as we evaluate

01:23:43

Hamas's actions in light of Scripture. In this particular case, Hamas is very, very clearly opposed to good.

01:23:55

And you know what? From an eschological, from an end -time standpoint,

01:24:06

I don't take a position. Christ will return when he wants to return, regardless if he does it pre -trib or post -trib or whenever the rapture is.

01:24:20

If he decides to take up believers before he returns,

01:24:26

I'm not going to be the one to tell him, no, he did it in the wrong order. So Christians should continue living as Christians and doing our best to represent

01:24:41

God on earth as we can and in every conversation that we have.

01:24:51

Sometimes we're going to be on, actually, more than sometimes we're going to be on the wrong side of history.

01:25:00

But as long as we're on the right side of God, that's all that matters. Yeah, it's called a narrow road for a reason.

01:25:08

Yeah, amen, brother. Yeah, it's some good points. And you know, as Christians, we have to ask what

01:25:15

God is doing in this, and that's not what we want God to be doing in this. So is there anything else that you guys think of that you think we need to discuss that we haven't already?

01:25:29

Yeah. I was—go ahead, Gary, I'm sorry. I would love to bring up the further ramifications of the

01:25:38

Western response. We're seeing the fallout now of 20 years since 9 -11 of Muslims being painted as a religion of peace and of borders being knocked down and of runaway

01:25:53

Muslim immigration to most Western nations to the point that I feel like most of those nations have occupying forces in them.

01:26:02

And I think that definitely plays into how these nations respond to what

01:26:08

Israel does. You guys talked about the media response. Part of the reason the media responds the way they do is because the media is the propaganda arm of the global Marxist elite that has been allowing this unfettered

01:26:24

Muslim immigration forever. And so I think the implications of this conflict go way, way further than just Israel and Gaza and maybe the

01:26:35

West Bank, and can we get rid of Hamas and Hezbollah? I think the implications of this are literally right in our capital as we saw people scaling the walls the other night and protesting by the thousands, literally across our country, across Germany, across Sweden and France.

01:26:56

We see widespread Muslim protest, and then we see the dupes of those nations joining in in support of terrorists.

01:27:05

So I do think it'd be helpful to look at how this conflict will affect the rest of the world and what that will do for the church and what that will do for the gospel going forth.

01:27:17

Yeah, I think that's a good point. The fact is that I will say this.

01:27:24

I think it's really interesting when I see the transgenders for Palestine, the homosexuals for Palestine.

01:27:31

How about you go there and support them? Let's see how long you last because I got news for you.

01:27:37

They've made it clear they would kill you first. People don't even realize what they're supporting, but I've said this for many years.

01:27:48

If the atheists are successful in using the Muslims to wipe out the influence of Christianity, guess who loses?

01:27:59

The atheists. Because when it's the atheists versus the Muslims, Muslims will win every time because they have something greater to live for, and the atheist doesn't.

01:28:08

This is it for the atheists in their mind. So they want to live peaceably and enjoy everything in this life.

01:28:16

And the Muslim says, who cares about this life? I'm going to live in for the next one. So if you have to die so I could live in a better next life,

01:28:22

I'll do it. Atheists versus Islam? Islam wins.

01:28:27

So the only things in the way is those pesky Christians that they're both trying to get rid of.

01:28:33

Rebecca, what did you have? I was just going to ask about discussing the word genocide because that is being thrown out there a lot now in regard to Israel's appropriate response to Hamas and they're accusing them of genocide.

01:28:54

Yes, and you're right. This is something we didn't touch on. The argument that's being made is that Israel saying that they want to wipe out

01:29:01

Hamas is being used to say that that's genocide. So just to be clear, they're not saying, as I think

01:29:09

Garrett had said, they're not saying to wipe out all Palestinians. They're talking about wiping out the leadership of Hamas, those that are making these decisions against Israel.

01:29:22

But as Tim said, I mean, the charter of Hamas is really clear.

01:29:27

It is the genocide of all Israels. So it's amazing that, well, actually it's not amazing.

01:29:35

This is exactly how the media works and the left works, right? You blame others for doing what you actually do.

01:29:40

Well, they blame Israel for what Hamas actually does. So there is a genocide and it's from Hamas because they're the ones that have in their charter to wipe out

01:29:52

Israel. So when you hear the chant, you know, from sea to sea, Palestine should be free.

01:30:02

That means... From the river to the sea? Yeah, from the river to the sea or sea to the river, wherever. The meaning of that is wipe out all

01:30:11

Jewish people. That's calling for genocide, exactly. Yeah, that is a claim of genocide. That's the irony of it all.

01:30:16

Yeah. And they're cheering that at the same time they're saying that Israel is committing genocide.

01:30:24

But the thing is, most of the Americans that are cheering that don't understand because they don't know what

01:30:31

Hamas stands for. And I don't think they really know what genocide is, to be honest. Yeah.

01:30:37

They're just, they're throwing out the word. It's the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or an ethnic group.

01:30:48

Isn't that what they did on October 7th? Mm -hmm. So, yeah. October 7th wasn't a military thing.

01:30:57

Let's just be honest. It was not an attack on the military. There were some military they ended up going after, but that wasn't the purpose of it.

01:31:06

Yeah. They purposely chose a time when the Jewish people were on holiday and the

01:31:14

Orthodox Jews were actually cut off from news, so they didn't even know what was going on. And I think

01:31:21

I used the right term, Orthodox, isn't it? Yes. The ones that won't even use any kind of technology on the

01:31:27

Sabbath. Yeah, and it was a special Sabbath, and so, yeah. It was funny, if you guys listen to Ben Shapiro, he said, in America, it's a two -day thing, so they were without media for two days, but his bodyguards were hearing about it, and so they were giving him the news so he could go into synagogue and let others know.

01:31:53

So, yeah, you're right. Let me ask this. What do you guys think? If Israel would have waited until Ramadan to respond, you think there would have been an outcry against Israel?

01:32:05

Mm -hmm. Yeah. It's a given. I think there would be an outcry against Israel regardless, so.

01:32:12

Whenever they did it, yeah. And so, yeah, I think that the genocide issue is quite clear whose side, again, it goes back to justice and truth, right?

01:32:25

When we look at the truth, we realize who's really committing genocide. And the media myths, because I was watching one of the commentaries,

01:32:32

I was watching, there was a Palestinian supporter who came in and said that River to the Sea just meant that they wanted

01:32:39

Palestinians to have equal rights from the River to the Sea. There's so many media myths out there.

01:32:47

It's like they honestly have no clue what River to the Sea means, and they're chanting it all over our country, and they have no clue what they're talking about.

01:32:56

You know, Michael Brown brought out in my Rap Report episode I did with him on this, he brought out the fact that when you look at the

01:33:05

Palestinians, historically, you know, before 2005, when

01:33:11

Israel gave over the control to the people of Gaza, they were living better before than after, you know, in every way you can.

01:33:25

And meanwhile, they were allowed to come into Israel. They just weren't allowed to vote. There's plenty of Arabs that are in Israel and live in Israel.

01:33:40

So the reality is that the argument they're not allowed in, again, it's a media myth.

01:33:47

And you know what's sad, Andrew, too, is, and I'm not saying all the

01:33:52

Arabs that live in Israel are like this, but in talking to the people that I know that live in Israel, and you're probably aware of this, too, and this even happened on October 7th, but when there's a

01:34:03

Jewish, when an Israeli is murdered by a terrorist, they celebrate in the neighborhoods there, the

01:34:09

Arab neighborhoods, and on October 7th, they were letting off fireworks within Israel, in the neighborhoods, to celebrate what

01:34:18

Hamas had done, you know. And they're allowed to live freely there in Israel.

01:34:27

Correct. Yeah, it's just crazy. So anything else?

01:34:34

Jared, it looks like you have some more you want to say. Yeah, I was going to pile on the genocide topic.

01:34:41

When we look, you know, you ask how Christians should think about this. When we look biblically and historically, no nation has been targeted for genocide more than Israel throughout history.

01:34:54

Satan seeks to destroy Israel, and whether it was Pharaoh killing all the young Israelite boys, or whether it was

01:35:04

Herod doing the same, this has gone on and on and on, and we have to understand, this isn't just a

01:35:11

Muslims versus Jews issue. This is a Satan versus the chosen people of God issue.

01:35:21

It goes way, way deeper than just Israelites or Muslims being targeted for genocide.

01:35:28

And so I think that we have to understand as Christians that there is a biblical response as well to the protection of life that has to be applied.

01:35:39

Israel has constantly been targeted, but they've also been constantly preserved by a

01:35:46

God who loves them. You know, and back to what we spoke about in the beginning, I don't remember if it was

01:35:52

Eve or Rebecca that was mentioning all the anti -Semitism that we see on the rise. I mean, you're seeing

01:35:58

Jewish students in universities locking themselves in rooms, calling the police because people are wanting to burn them.

01:36:08

And they're saying, gas the Jews, right? So it's really clear what's, you know, this is a genocide and it's affecting everywhere.

01:36:18

Yeah, and this gives us a lot of insight into how

01:36:23

Israel has handled this historically, because they understand that their nation doesn't just have to deal with Arab Muslims within the borders of Israel.

01:36:33

They have neighbors all around them that seek to destroy them, and everything they do is scrutinized by neighbors who have mightier armies and more power and more military and have an intent to attack them.

01:36:49

And truly, had it not been for God's miraculous preservation, they should have been wiped off the map many times.

01:36:56

Yeah, and I've said this when I was on Matt Slick's, Matt Slick Live, his radio program.

01:37:04

I've said it in other places. I think what caused this, what brought this about was the fact that, you know, and everything gets blamed on Donald Trump, but it is

01:37:15

Donald Trump's fault. And let me explain why. Donald Trump did what everyone said couldn't be done.

01:37:21

He got four peace deals. There's six peace treaties that we've seen with Israel since 1948.

01:37:29

And Trump has four of the six because he did something no one thought you could do.

01:37:35

Instead of trying to work a peace deal with Israel and those that absolutely hate

01:37:40

Israel, he went to those that were a little bit friendlier toward Israel to do peace deals with the hope that there would be a domino effect, that more and more of these peace deals would pile up and eventually some of those countries like Saudi Arabia would make a peace deal.

01:37:59

And Saudi Arabia before October 7th was on the verge, it seems, of a peace agreement with Israel.

01:38:06

And that would have been the biggest country to do that. And the fear that many had in the

01:38:12

Muslim world is once Saudi Arabia does that, there would be pressure on the rest of the

01:38:17

Arab world to enter into peace deals. And the one country that doesn't like that the most is

01:38:24

Iran. Because remember, folks, maybe you're too old to remember the

01:38:29

Iran -Iraq wars, but Iran was the enemy of all the Arab countries for years, many years, because they were the only

01:38:40

Muslims that are of a different division when you look at the Sunni and Shia.

01:38:46

And so they're the oddballs. They were everyone's enemy. And they're the ones funding

01:38:52

Hamas to go and do this. Wonder why? Because that takes all the pressure off of Iran and puts it back on Israel.

01:39:02

And the peace deal with Saudi Arabia is now not being discussed. All the other peace deals are not being discussed.

01:39:11

And Iran is not the center of attention, right? So I think there's these things we have to take into account when we think about it and say, you know what?

01:39:23

There was the verge of peace deals, and for whatever reason, God is allowing this to happen.

01:39:31

So I think this was good discussion. I think that a lot was brought out, a lot for the listeners to think of.

01:39:41

And so I don't know who won our contest, so everyone gets a gold star, even though Are You Just Watching had two people here representing them.

01:39:50

Kind of is, you know, is that cheating? I don't know. Everybody in the community had the opportunity to join.

01:39:58

That's right. Garrett should have got his wife and brought her in.

01:40:05

Rebecca, oh wait, Rebecca doesn't have a co -host. So, but we're glad that you guys all came in.

01:40:14

I hope, listener, that you found some value in this discussion. I hope you'll share it.

01:40:19

And let me encourage you with each of the podcasts we mentioned. Rebecca has done many discussions even before October 7th on Israel.

01:40:29

You can go back to One Little Candle, check out some of those. Are You Just Watching? We're going to have to wait for this next episode to see what the big reveal is of their disagreement.

01:40:41

They obviously did it there on their show, not here. There was not the disagreement. We didn't get to see it, so they saved it for their show.

01:40:48

So we're all going to have to go and listen to Are You Just Watching? Because you listen to what to watch, just saying.

01:40:56

But, you know, I'll say that I know Matt Slick on Matt Slick Live covered some things with Israel, and I will be covering it.

01:41:04

I've covered it on Apologetics Live, and I know when I was, even when I was gone, they discussed it.

01:41:12

My co -host Drew and his co -host on Matter of Theology addressed some issues with it, and I'm going to be having it out in my wrap report with Michael Brown.

01:41:25

So those are some resources. But, folks, you need to get trained.

01:41:32

You need to study this. Why? Because the world has thrown everything against Israel, and if you're going to stand for truth, you need to first know what the facts are.

01:41:41

So I hope that we dispelled some of the media myths so that you can support claims for truth and justice when these issues come up.

01:41:54

So I hope it's been helpful. I hope that you guys learned a lot. I hope you'll share this. We maybe even hope that some of the podcasters here or the others in the community may, you know, play clips of this or address some of what we said.

01:42:08

They missed out, but they can always play it on their own podcast, do a response. But I just hope that this has been helpful to you.

01:42:17

And with that, we'll see you next month. So I don't know what the topic will be for next month, but we'll figure it out.

01:42:29

So we look forward to seeing you then. This is a ministry of striving for eternity.

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