Philosophical “Response,” Racialism Again, Calls Including Church of Christ Question

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March 28, 2018

Started off with some brief comments on a response posted by Dr. Davis in reply to the last program, and then spent quite a while on the race issue once again due to comments on line by Urban Apologetics and Kyle Howard. Took a call from our brother Kofi up north, had problems with the phones, and managed to get to only two other calls due to those technical issues, one on the Church of Christ and the concept of law keeping Visit the store at https://doctrineandlife.co/

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00:39: And greetings welcome to the dividing line I'm just gonna use little red lights here to know what I'm supposed to looking at because I've just got a big old
00:46: Red screen there, but there you go. Hi. Hey, ho There we are.
00:52: We got a little late start Rich had to reset on that side then my Mac went insane and I had to reset on this side
00:58: So we went ahead and killed the internet while we were at it. Not all the internet just our connection to it So we were just you know, we're a few late a few minutes late
01:06: But that's okay because we're not on a network and nobody cares. That's sort of how that works Heading out to the
01:13: Easter pageant of the LDS Church tonight. I haven't I went out
01:19: One. Yeah, I was out there last last year at least one night but we're gonna hook up with Jeff Durbin and I'm not sure if Luke's going to be out there or King ginger or whoever else but You might want to sort of watch the
01:34: Apollo Ghia Facebook feed because they frequently do live
01:41: Facebook stuff and so we might do something fun along those lines last week
01:47: Jeff was out there and I was causing him problems on the by messaging leaving leaving messages or comments on the live
01:57: Facebook thing and and Messing things up that way so it was sort of fun and guess who was out there watching
02:04: Craig Ray who else and so I oh, yeah Yeah, so I so I I even noted to Jeff I said by the way,
02:11: Craig Ray is a hundred and three years old. Just saying He's Craig Ray Craig Ray showed up man.
02:20: I don't know when it's sometime in the mid 80s late 87 88 somewhere around there with these
02:31: With a things he was passing out the Alpha and Omega watchdog committee and the he made the the
02:41: Logo with a magic marker. Yeah, that was hey, we were all doing stuff like that back then
02:47: I mean we our stuff was done on a 24 pin dot matrix printer and remember we did those tracks for that when the
02:55: Pope came and And we ran out of we literally went out there. He was he was at Sun Devil Stadium, which everybody thought was funny
03:04: And the the lines of people we just walked up and down the lines Wiped out everything we had we had done.
03:11: Well, you're forgetting that they made them rename the stadium for that event to Arizona State Stadium or something like that because they didn't want the devil in any of their advertise
03:23: I didn't I wasn't aware of that, but it was it was it was that was September 21st 1987
03:31: How do you remember that? I just do I Just do I'm just gonna have to remember when you forget other things
03:39: I tell you that you if you can remember that you can remember everything else today. Yeah. Yeah September 21st 1987, huh?
03:46: It is it was either September 14th or September 21st one or the other but it was 1987
03:52: See notice it's starting to get blurrier. Yeah, well, it's sort of like sort of like dreams, you know, the more you think about them
03:58: Did I actually dream that what and it just watch it goes away watch it See, I I control the vertical in the horizontal here.
04:06: So, you know Okay, anyway, all right, so That's weird
04:18: Paul a servant of Jesus Christ. I agree with Paul. Do you? There's obviously something
04:30: Something I'm missing there. But anyway Just a few moments before the program started
04:41: Dr. Davis from the Tyndale philosophy folks that on last program we
04:48: Responded to a an article Calvinism's gospel tautology and If you recall we did is went through and we demonstrated that Dr.
04:58: Davis not only was misrepresenting reformed theology, but was missing fundamental issues in the exegesis of John 316 and And then you combine the exegetical errors with the other and It got to the point where Before he got into using symbolic logic to create a tautology the entire foundation upon which was based was gone
05:24: There it was it had been refuted It was it was demonstrated to be based upon horrific argumentation
05:32: Well, I just linked to a response that was that was posted. Well, I saw the tweet 10 minutes ago maybe 15
05:41: Um, all I can say is go look Go listen listen do something this this is be very very educational
05:53: Read the article Listen to the response of the program and then read
06:00: The response that was just posted and you will see exactly what it means
06:08: To have a Philosophical Lens Through which you do exegesis and theology.
06:18: So so your philosophical perspective and theories are the primary lens that determines what everything else is going to be or doing exegesis first allowing primacy of revelation
06:34: I I don't know that I could have wanted to provide a a
06:42: Clear example Than what was just provided to us. I mean the response was was just Was just amazing
06:54: Because you know instead of focusing upon what my primary argument was and of course since I was reading straight through his presentation
07:05: Then you you know exactly what his argument is, but he doesn't do that And then says so that's it there is no serious discussion of the premises in the argument or their connection with its conclusion
07:18: This is a strange sort of argument analysis So for him the whole thing for him is the symbolic logical argument by which
07:26: I created tautology Not evidently seeing that if the entire foundation in Looking at John 316 was utterly
07:38: Shredded and Destroyed on the basis of the Greek text itself That there's no reason to go on from there
07:47: I'm I'm just left going Okay, there you go
07:54: I Don't even don't even know what to what to say, but anyway
08:05: Excellent example of the difference between Biblically based approach and a philosophically based approach
08:15: Real good example, and like I said, I just linked if you go back to the last Entry on the blog at AOMEN .org
08:24: that contains the Radio Free Geneva We did I have now put an update and added a link to the response so you can read it
08:32: You can read it there, so so there you go But I do find that to be rather rather rather fascinating Just in passing
08:47: Only because we did and Did I don't know if I did that on the program?
09:00: I'm not sure if I did it on the program or if I did it At my church,
09:06: I do remember doing at the church I may have done it at both but there is a Book that we looked at in the past it was probably 17 years ago somewhere around there
09:23: By Frank S page called trouble with the tulip trouble with the tulip and Like I said,
09:31: I I know that we did it on the program here, too
09:37: You did it August 13th 2006. You actually did a series review of it 2006 oh
09:46: Well, that's what it says. No, this is not top my head. This is what the blog has Okay, continuing my review of the trouble with tulip.
09:53: Okay with the tulip All right, maybe I did it then because I I don't remember when Frank page was
10:00: Elected as president of the Southern Bapst Convention. Maybe that's what prompted it I know
10:05: I did it at PR BC as well in Sunday school. Anyway, the only reason I mentioned this is
10:12: Frank page resigned from a rather high position in the Southern Bapst Convention just yesterday and it has obviously caused a
10:25: Tremendous Ripple effect in Amongst the leadership of the of the convention.
10:34: It was in regards to moral failure and It's it's sad to see anything like that Not rejoicing in it at all but we had made reference to the fact that that the book certainly was not a
10:54: High -end example of Dealing fairly or accurately with with reformed theology.
11:01: Not that it has anything to do with this Just that I think the reason we did the review now to think about it
11:10: When when did Frank page when was Frank page elected?
11:16: According to this you started the series right after he was elected. Okay, so it was 2006.
11:23: Okay, that makes sense That makes sense. So yeah that news broke
11:29: Yesterday You always hate to see anything like that it has nothing to do with his having written that book, but it was a an issue that we had commented on and had
11:45: Demonstrated some pretty serious misrepresentations and errors in the in the book itself and yet Frank page has been you know in the very highest echelons of Southern Baptist leadership for Many many years for you know a decade and a half at least and So we're very sad to see that and and hope that His repentance is real and he can put things back together again and and things like that Anyway, let's let's move on to what unfortunately
12:27: I have to talk about I don't want to but it has been Forced upon me there are times when
12:35: I Run across stuff That was posted months ago
12:45: That I I didn't see I don't You know, sometimes I see things quickly I saw for example the posting of that Response Because it came up on my feed
12:59: I happen to be looking at I don't when I come back when I When I come back from being out at the
13:07: Easter pageant tonight, I'm not going to sit down and spend half an hour trying to work through My entire
13:14: Twitter feed and And to be honest with you tweet bot
13:22: There are times I end up seeing things because I'm following what somebody else said and I start looking at thread and There I am and and I was even tagged.
13:31: I never saw it and and I don't know why I It's it's mysterious. It's not as mysterious as Facebook.
13:38: I mean That's one of the reasons I just loathe Investing almost any time in Facebook comment stuff because Once you post it, it's like it
13:48: Facebook will never forget it Your enemies will always be able to find it, but you'll never be able to find again.
13:54: It's gone It I can't find stuff for love no money.
14:00: It's it's terrible anyway You will sometimes just have something pop up and you're sitting there
14:10: Looking at it on on your screen and you start clicking on it and and You don't even know how you got this person angry with you
14:19: You start looking back and discover. They've been angry with you for a long long time You know all the rest of stuff and you're just left going no, okay
14:30: Then other times, you know you you find yourself right in the middle of it Right as it's right as it's happening.
14:37: I I Posted actually a tweet. Let me see if I can
14:43: I hope things won't crash here real quick. I Posted a tweet just recently just last hour
14:55: I think Because I Started seeing some posts from Kyle J Howard and We had we had had some
15:16: Discussion I Had written to him and had had some some discussion with him about some stuff
15:23: I had looked up his Profile and and one of the things that was said about him is that he deals
15:30: He's a counselor who deals with racial trauma So it says well, it's what it said.
15:36: I don't know if it still does but I assume it does look it up Kyle James Howard Racial trauma and I had
15:46: Stumbled into some stuff from last year where he was just ripping and snorting on me and how bad and terrible and horrible
15:52: I am at my followers as if I look for followers as if I control followers or or Have a you know, fill out a form to be a follower type thing
16:06: You know How My followers just are just terrible and they're insensitive and they're mean and nasty and all the rest of stuff and I was like Well, I mean, let me introduce you to some other folks and you'll find out
16:17: I'm a nice guy anyway, I Mentioned that I was going to respond briefly to the video that a number of people
16:29: Referred me to from a group called urban apologetics It's evidently some new group or something because when
16:36: I looked there was like 55 subscribers and four videos So that means it must be fairly new and Unfortunately, sadly what
16:48: I saw in the video Was basically two men telling me to shut up. Just shut up.
16:55: Stop talking about anything like this at all And what they did is they took a
17:01: Single statement that I made They completely isolated it from what
17:07: I was talking about. I mean they did not play a second of What I was responding to which was a black
17:14: Hebrew Israelite video It was the exchange between my son
17:21: Joshua and these black Hebrew Israelites who Dress up like Jewish high priests with sunglasses and half -fingered gloves and Sit there spouting off and Who cannot?
17:40: Refer to Josh is anything other than white devil. These men are racists of the worst sort
17:52: The black Hebrew Israelite movement as a whole there are some exceptions But all you have to do is go on YouTube It won't take you long
18:07: To find black Hebrew Israelites talking about how when the black
18:14: Jesus returns all the white people all the Edomites are
18:25: You know You can find pictures of them with little white children in cages as slaves
18:32: Pictures of them with knives to the throats of white people. I mean it is the most vile low -level
18:41: Disgusting racism you'll ever see there is no excuse for it anyone who tries to exist. Well, you know, there's this long history
18:49: No, it's disgusting stop making excuses for it There is no reason no matter how you've been treated to get down to that level none don't make excuses stop it
19:02: I've seen some of it's like There there is no behavior That social justice warriors cannot excuse as long as it promotes their social justice warrior activities
19:16: Anyways, so I was commenting on how today The Black Hebrew Israelites make the
19:25: KKK look like amateurs because what does the KKK do today? Well, they hide in the shadows.
19:31: They cover their faces. They're not doing you're not gonna go down to the train station in a major city and find
19:41: KKK guys yelling and screaming their Hatred of black people and trying to get
19:48: Get people to join up as if it's the good and righteous thing to do I mean there are there are there are white racists that are just as disgusting as black racists
20:00: The whole point was these people have made an art form out of it and have made it a religion
20:06: There's nothing to respect about the perversion of God's Word into a basis for the kind of vile
20:16: Violent Disgusting material being promoted by the very worst the black Hebrew Israelite groups.
20:22: There's none and they take that Let's ignore what the black
20:29: Hebrew Israelites did let's go after this guy for pointing it out and Then tell me shut up.
20:35: Stop talking about this stuff. Be quiet hmm so I'm like, well, that's
20:43: That's nice. That's so that's helpful Okay, and right around the same time
20:49: I start running into this stuff As I mentioned, oh
20:57: I guess I opened that twice from Kyle J Howard the person who
21:05: Engages in counseling for racial trauma and So I announced on Facebook That I was going to be responding, you know, at least pointing out the rather obvious fact that if the best urban apologetics can do is to isolate that statement from what
21:25: I was what I you know, If someone were to watch the video I was referring to and then listen to my comments no
21:32: Rational level -headed person who is not absolutely dedicated to racialism
21:38: Would have any problem with what I said, they did get it. They go. Wow. Those guys are amazing They wouldn't even think about anything else.
21:44: They would just recognize what the context was So I say to urban apologetics shame on you shame on you.
21:50: That's that's It's not worthy of any brother at all. Just shame on you. You you you
21:56: Wow What can I say? Just I would
22:02: I would never do that to anybody else Have never done to anybody else won't do it. I'm gonna take the higher road if you want to take that road down there
22:09: It's all yours we're not gonna run to each other on it because I Didn't kind of apologetics. I do ever have done and won't do it.
22:17: I Reject it as it should be rejected. So I mentioned that And I mentioned the fact they they were talking about my racial insensitivity
22:28: Which I defined which I said which when translated into meaningful English means James White does not buy our
22:34: Neo -marxist racialist theories and insists that the only basis for unity in the body of Christ is our common
22:40: Reconciliation at the foot of the cross and therefore he is to be labeled unfairly and unjustly. That's what I put in my
22:45: Facebook And then I mentioned might touch on Kyle Howard's recent comments as well
22:52: That was all so Kyle Howard posts a screencap of my
23:03: Facebook article and this is what he writes or You could just repent and We could be friends
23:10: You don't have to double down beloved. Now.
23:16: Can you imagine if I did that in reverse? Can you imagine if I said to Kyle Howard, you know what, you know how we could be friends just repent of what you're doing
23:29: When I you know, I take that term repentance very seriously If if you're going to say to someone you need to repent
23:39: Then you need to have established very very plainly and clearly the sinful nature of The actions that you are saying need to be repented of But the few times we've addressed this and it's come up a couple times
23:57: It's certainly not the major thing we focus upon but I am NOT going to back down when falsely accused I'm not going to back down when people try to become divisive
24:06: In in in bringing division to the church, I'm just I'm just not going to do it But When when you call someone to repent?
24:17: Then you need to provide a sound basis for the identification of their actions as being sinful and We have more than once Taken the time on this program
24:36: To address the idea of racialism Ethnic Gnosticism the fundamental idea that You have the right to look at me and say the lens the first lens that you must see me with is the lens of my skin color or because that actually is
25:04: Utterly meaningless utterly meaningless or my
25:13: Cultural experience or at least that which I have appropriated. I Mean it may have never been my cultural experience.
25:20: I might be an upper -class or middle middle upper middle class
25:26: American who's had it easy my entire life, but I appropriate my people and therefore view myself as One with them and blah blah blah blah blah and therefore a victim of this that and the other thing
25:42: The primary lens is supposed to be that you want an example of this we talked about in the last program for about 30 seconds
25:51: That music video again, I referred people to the cross politics article
25:59: That music video that beautiful music video biblical language beautiful music
26:08: Just so well done so well organized so well performed just fantastic and yet people watched it and people said
26:23: Everybody's white Now I was done in Nashville They did an open call for the audience in the church
26:32: So there could have been It could have could have ended up all being all black if that's who showed up all
26:38: Asian all Hispanic all Indian whatever They wouldn't have cared but people actually watched that with that lens firmly in place and Instead of hearing the words the music
26:57: Being transported by the beauty of it the glory of the message What do you get?
27:03: Too white too white now I have expressed more than once The fact that I find this incomprehensible
27:19: I find it utterly Contradictory to biblical norms
27:28: Evidently, I'm not I was told in that video. I'm not allowed to to mention my own history
27:36: That video was extremely offensive by the way, I mean if I was gonna make arguments based upon You know disrespecting my background they even got my background wrong
27:50: They didn't get that right but but they did make mention of you know I've had ancestors that have been mistreated and they dismissed all of that.
27:58: It was extremely offensive, but they don't see it They don't see it that's why that's why there's two reasons why
28:04: I don't take offense at it They don't see it. So it's not purposeful on their part and secondly as an adult
28:13: I choose what I will be offended by That's something that really needs to be
28:20: Emphasized again in our society is that just because something could be taken as offensive
28:26: Doesn't mean that you have to be offended by it. I Don't know that a society can survive
28:33: If that simple aspect of adulthood is not reestablished within our society.
28:40: I Really don't know When you've got people calling the cops Because they wear their feelings on their shoulders and have the emotional
28:52: Maturity of a six -year -old How is a society like that supposed to survive
28:58: I Don't I don't know. I I can't I can't conceive of it. I I don't know anyway
29:05: All my all my background stuff my history It's irrelevant doesn't matter
29:14: What I'm being told in this In this order by The one that I just just referred to here by Kyle Howard just repent just just accept our theories
29:33: We have presented a biblical case that the primary lens through which any believer must look at any other believer is first and foremost the fact
29:43: That the ground is leveled for the cross that we have been redeemed and reconciled on the exact same basis
29:50: That's the whole emphasis of justification by faith is that there can be nothing else added to it. There is no
29:56: Jewish Church There is no Gentile Church. There is no black church. There is no white church It has nothing whatsoever to do with your past with your culture or anything else the
30:06: Primary lens is the fact that each one of us is absolutely dependent solely and completely for our standing with God Based upon our relationship to Jesus Christ and nothing else and I will not accept any theories that undercut that in any way
30:20: I won't do it Don't demand that I do so for you to consider me to be nice Because I don't think it's very nice when you undercut the reality of that central affirmation
30:35: So I'm told to repent when no one
30:40: Has ever even tried? remember when Ron Sort of tried when it was
30:47: Ron. I don't even know what it is now, but when Ron We did a couple things back and forth and I presented this stuff.
30:53: I went through Galatians. I went through other texts of Scripture I established these things Remember when they tried to respond it was bad.
31:02: It was really bad and we went through it and Demonstrated that it was really really bad
31:09: You haven't given me any reason to accept your assertion to repent where's your authority it's not biblical
31:16: But where where is it in Scripture? I'd like to know where it is. Well, we are to bear one another's burdens
31:26: Okay Let's see how that worked out in the early church. Does that mean? That in that early church in the
31:33: Roman Empire where Rome had dragged people from Every place into Rome itself.
31:40: Let's think about the church in Rome You would have had every kind of cultural background that existed in the entire
31:49: Roman Empire Represented within the Christian community within the church at Rome Where do you find the
31:57: Apostle Paul telling these individuals now When you see the
32:03: Scythian When you see the person from Sardinia When you see the person from Egypt Make sure to bring into your thinking and your thought the history of this particular people
32:18: So that the first thing you do is you you seek to Formulate Your thoughts about this person based upon the history of their ethnic origins and so on I I've looked at probably every variant in the book
32:39: Romans. I never saw that anywhere There's there's not any major textual variants to find that and I was just not there
32:46: What is the foundation Common confession of faith common redemption common spirit common goal one heart one mind focused upon what
33:01: My the history of my people over against your people. No, you see
33:08: Once you're in the body of Christ All The white
33:14: Saints and I hate that all the Saints that what does that mean all the
33:19: Saints that didn't have a bunch of Melanin lived in a part of the world where they didn't see the Sun all the time. That's all it is
33:27: But all the white Saints if you have a lot of melanin become your Saints Because you're in that family.
33:34: You're part of that people and vice versa I'm sure Cyprian was not a pasty white -skinned guy
33:42: But man, I love to read his Letter to the Christians who were enslaved in the mines as a part of my church history course
33:54: He's mine. And the reason he's mine is
34:01: That the color of his skin and his ethnicity doesn't make any difference
34:09: Not amongst Christians not in the gospel. It doesn't it does in the world
34:16: Man's theories in the world man wants to divide the people up into races for various and sundry purposes and reasons you might get evolutionary
34:32: Argumentation you might get all sorts doesn't matter in the church The color and the background is irrelevant and so when
34:44: I hear people, you know, you everybody knows what I'm talking about when November 2016
34:52: The day after the election a Well -known Christian says
35:02: I'm afraid to go to church on Sunday and worship with white people and a lot of people even this day go, well, you know, you just need to you just need to Understand his experience
35:21: That's that's the world speaking Because that was a divisive
35:27: Unbiblical statement it was wrong. It should have been rebuked. It was rebuked by some
35:32: But most just went it was a terrible thing to say and not because it quote -unquote offends anybody but because of the fundamental
35:46: Misunderstanding of the nature of the gospel that it implies So or you could just repent hmm
36:01: So, I guess I have been asked by Kyle Howard to repent of believing that the fundamental foundational reason that I can have absolute
36:19: Perfect peace With Every race and I'll believe in races.
36:28: So I'm using that in the Every skin color every background with whatever every tribe tongue people a nation.
36:35: How's that? I must reject that the reason that I can have peace with them is solely
36:46: Solely Because of the unity that I have with them in the body of Christ Because every single one of us doesn't matter what our background is
36:58: The only reason we have eternal life forgiveness of sins adoption the family of God reconciliation reconciliation, yes
37:06: Reconciliation is in and through the confession that Jesus Christ Died was buried rose again.
37:16: The third day is coming again He's the Son of God and my entire hope is and I need to repent of that.
37:24: I need to put a different lens in Front of that. I'm really tired
37:32: Really really really tired of This white people stuff
37:40: I Don't know Rich if you
37:46: Set things up when you reset the computer Wow That's actually looks pretty good.
38:04: What? Yeah, I would I would say never mind Um, this is the oldest picture that I have of any of my ancestors
38:18: This was taken in 1889 in Broken Bow Nebraska, I don't know about you, but I don't see much back behind that house there
38:34: That is my great -great -grandfather and obviously my great -great -grandmother and hence my great
38:43: Grandfather, I believe is in her arms. I Think that's what my dad said now
38:52: They didn't have much protection from the Sun and as you can see they're just working the land as best they can
38:57: How you like those those those trees? Like what
39:03: I call a shade tree, huh if you're an ant maybe But but there's there's my family now
39:15: I really doubt that they're all that lily white out there in that Sun. They probably got pretty tan
39:20: In fact, I've got some pictures of me friend of mine and I I Don't know it was 8th or 9th grade as I recall.
39:28: We were stupid and We decided that we were gonna prove how
39:35: Tough we were and for like a week in July in Phoenix Every day we went out and we played like three hours of tennis from like noon to three and it was their outdoor courts, so I Was darker in those areas where I was exposed to the
39:59: Sun. I was darker that summer Then many people to call themselves
40:04: African Americans today. I mean I was I was stupid. This is before sunscreen and All the rest of that stuff.
40:15: I mean I realize now that was that was just dumb. I was in great great shape then but I That was dumb the color of their skin my skin at that time
40:29: The very light -skinned quote -unquote African Americans that I know
40:37: Absolutely utterly irrelevant But my goodness how easy it rolls off the lips of people today just simply talk about White this and white that I know a number of black people and they're very different from one another.
41:01: I Suppose I could have pulled up a picture of LeBron James wearing Enough gold and diamonds
41:09: To buy me and my family ten times over and I could have talked about black this or black that but You see
41:22: I see LeBron James as one individual he happens to have a certain melanin count and a certain background and he's
41:29: Incredibly incredibly rich very very talented very very arrogant, but very very talented.
41:36: I See him as an individual When I look at the black members of my church,
41:42: I don't I don't go ah LeBron James Ah, you must have money like LeBron James No, they're individuals.
41:54: But if you it seems like once you drop below a certain You know, could someone show me the the the the scale somewhere where the you know at a certain point of melanin
42:06: You know you all of a sudden it's okay to just lump everybody into one group I'd like to see that.
42:14: I I'm not sure where I rate on that. But evidently you can just white this white that and Unfortunately, my last name really helps with that too as if that's relevant
42:27: White this white that really tired of that because the human family
42:34: Represents an absolute unbroken spectrum when it comes to skin color but it's one race made in the image of God and the
42:44: Christian message is That I do not have to be defined
42:51: By what happened to my ancestors two centuries ago In fact,
42:56: I can't be because their faith or lack thereof
43:02: Cannot possibly Cannot possibly Impact my relationship to God today positively,
43:13: I can look back into history and be thankful for What men and women of every shade and color and ethnic background have done for the cause of Christ?
43:27: and the wonderful thing is I can learn and be blessed by What the
43:34: Spirit of God did within them that can direct me into better service to Christ but I dare not
43:43: Look into the past and honor evil in anyone's life
43:49: By allowing myself to be determined by the evil that took place in the past the good
43:56: The work of the Spirit of God. Yes evil. No, and so it's it's amazing how easily some of these folks have dismissed the the fact that It's probably because they they've not gone to Europe and don't realize how deeply these prejudices exist in Europe But there are still groups in Europe Asia Where you could look at at an individual for each one of those groups and you could not tell the difference between them for love nor money, but they can and they hate each other and And why they hate each other from stuff that happened a hundred to a thousand years ago the
44:42: Christian message is No No No again in the body
44:52: There is one faith one Lord one baptism. There's one table Y 'all come to the same table eat the same bread drink the same wine
45:01: It doesn't matter what your ancestors did to each other it doesn't matter what your ancestors did to each other and As soon as you start saying oh, but you need to start with that You are denying the only real fundamental foundation for oneness in the body of Christ and I say stop it
45:18: Stop it. Now if you want to label me with all sorts of lies and Social slander for saying that just make sure you play the whole clip of what
45:34: I actually said if you want to attack me for saying we as Christians have the greatest answer for all the ethnic hatred in the world if You want to slander me for pointing that out and saying it's dangerous when people start bringing their social justice
45:53: Categories into the gospel then do it Because I can trust the
45:59: Spirit of God is going to work in the hearts and minds of his people to help them to understand And get over their prejudices
46:05: It's all there is to it All there is to it.
46:11: So to the urban apologetics guys God bless you, but shame on you for what you did
46:16: You know, it wasn't fair You know is out of context if you go and play the black
46:21: Hebrew says I dare you I dare you dare you dare you Go on to that feed find that thing and put all the times that those guys said white devils white
46:32: Devil and everything along with it go ahead with the four -letter words They probably used later on put them all together in one and then put it in that video
46:39: And then we'll see what people think of what you had to say How about that? How about that?
46:48: Amazing. Come on guys We've got a lot to be doing this world. You really think that was worth the amount of time you put into it
46:55: It's that important to you Wow, that's that's astounding that's just astounding really is
47:06: Well, I just realized opening the phones after a program like this is probably No, no,
47:14: I don't mean by that I'm just I just mean most people are gonna be like I'm not calling in today No way
47:21: Let's say Yeah, well, you know, I think there's plenty of other stuff we can go talk about but we'll see
47:31: I'm willing hey, there is nothing I just said that I'm ashamed of and if you're gonna if you're gonna try if you're gonna try to argue against that Good luck
47:42: Good luck eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
47:50: But I think a lot of folks would be like let's just talk about something else for a while, you know
47:56: I mean, I I get it. And of course, I also realize this is all In the middle of all the controversy going on With the
48:07: MLK stuff coming up and I was directed to an article on SBC voices this morning
48:18: That was quite interesting You can find it if you want
48:27: But Well good Yeah, the only the only brave man that I really know the problem is
48:36: I hear nothing here I did did you remember to turn that back on? Maybe it maybe it times out
48:50: Well, how do you know what four seconds is? I mean, it doesn't know
48:59: Testing testing. Ah the old 1980s technology beats the technology of 2018 every time
49:08: Let's uh The only man brave enough to call
49:15: Kofi You're on brother The I believe was my let mental you say that there's a fine line between bravery and stupidity.
49:24: I think we'll find out There is I think that there's actually well anyways, let's stick to the subject.
49:34: Yeah, I Hadn't even thought really honestly,
49:39: I hadn't even thought about you today. I was just Reading stuff and going.
49:46: Oh goodness. Here we go. Again. It's like nothing has changed and and But I'm more than happy to hear hear your thoughts
49:58: So I want to watch the video in question when you mentioned it on Facebook two times to be is a good thing so kind of blasted through it and My first instinct was oh great.
50:12: We're doing this thing again. Um, I'm sorry. I find it weird that As you pointed out
50:20: You know, you made a comment about making a relation between the KKK today
50:26: Which that was everyone seems to be forgetting. I don't know what today I remember you made the public.
50:32: Yeah, I can see how you'd make that comparison um Yeah, you make comment comparing, you know, black people as what they're doing today to what the
50:42: KKK is doing today Right, which actually isn't a whole lot Like you said mostly smoking mirrors hiding behind, you know, their masks and what have you the only the
50:51: BHA BHI folks are utilizing social media a ridiculous amount of Pace and they are putting up content with the most vile racial slurs the most vile racial comments
51:02: I've seen the images. Oh, yeah Let's not let's not forget something. They are they are out in our cities they are at train stations right here in in Phoenix and They are repeating that kind of vile stuff at passers by I mean, they're yelling and screaming at people
51:22: They're not hiding anywhere. They're they're not and they're not just hiding behind YouTube videos either they are right out there in the public public square they are and what
51:35: I find so disturbing is the willingness on the part of the folks in the video and loads of other people to dismiss any sort of criticism of that because well in your case, it's because your wife and It's weird because my my wife and I talk about this all the time.
51:54: Um Even when people on my side of the melanin scale if you will
52:00: Want to point out some of the inconsistencies in relation to stuff like this We don't get this in too much either which tells me that this is it's not a white versus black issue
52:11: I've stopped buying into that narrative a very long time. This is a worldview issue Mm -hmm it's for me a difference between a worldview which sees everything centered on race and everything centered on ethnicity race in quotes, of course or ethnicity and A worldview that is based on no, let's talk about the facts of the matter.
52:31: Let's talk about the truth of the matter I think it's um Interesting you raised that point about you know, people will talk about issues.
52:39: They will you need to respect their experience, right? To which I want to say, okay. Are we now saying that the black experience is monolithic because oh my good experience, right?
52:49: Yeah, my experience as a second -generation Ghanian living in Who grew up in the
52:55: UK and now lives in southern, Oregon is very different I would like to think to the experience of many
53:03: African Americans At what point do we stop buying his myth of the quote -unquote?
53:09: So monolithic black experience and to be I start saying hold on Let's just talk about people as individuals who have different journeys who have different things that have informed their background
53:18: Like there are second -generation Ghanaians who grew up in the UK who are very different to me
53:23: Yep, like this idea of this, you know monolithic quote -unquote white
53:28: Experience versus monolithic black experience. It doesn't a logical level. It's ridiculous and I think as Christians is even worse because as believers
53:38: We recognize that there was something that has bound us together White Christian and black
53:43: Christian or Asian Christian or Christian from any other ethnicity There's something that has bound us together, which is much deeper than our
53:53: Ethnic ties. Yep. I thought that was the heart of our gospel message and it concerns me massively as a black man that we seem to be regressing from that to let's talk about these divisions, which
54:07: I thought as a Christian the gospel has Torn down these walls of division.
54:14: It's I don't know. It's concerning. Well, no it is and I It's it's strange as you have pointed out as you have experienced as other people
54:24: I could mention and I'm not mentioning I'm just simply because I don't want to drag them into it, but there are other people well -known people
54:31: On your end of the melanin scale and you are pretty much at the far end of that melanin scale
54:39: But but and and you know, I think that's beautiful and and I I'm I think it's
54:47: I think it's wonderful when we can get together and we can we can smile about that and we can
54:54: You can you can joke about how I could disappear in a snowstorm and I can joke about how until you smile
54:59: I can't see you in the dark. So it's perfectly fine That would be nice if we could get away with that. Unfortunately in some context anymore.
55:06: You can't even say that I mean if I didn't see the Sun I would be really really brilliantly white
55:12: But the fact the matter is there are people that have the exact same Historical background
55:18: I have and skin tone I bet I have that are so different from me in their worldview and their culture and their experience
55:25: That to try to put the two of us together is is a is a square peg in a round hole It doesn't make any sense and it's really dehumanizing very very dehumanizing
55:36: First first for people to speak as if there is a a means and a mechanism of speaking of some type of White experience black experience anything else, but when you say that You get one kind of pushback and I get a different kind of pushback
55:57: We both get pushback from the same people but it ends up taking a different form and it's all based on what
56:04: Is it because we have a different different content of what we're saying? no, it's because we have a different content in our skin for crying out loud and That should not exist amongst
56:16: Christians It just should not be a part of our worldview and what it does in my opinion demonstrate is that the world's worldview is still very much prevalent and needs to be challenged by a
56:29: Biblical worldview to drive that out and if we don't we're gonna end up with divisions that are horrific in in the result because As we live in a more and more secularizing society as more and more of our freedoms are being taken away as more and more
56:46: Of the gospel becomes identified as hate speech itself we're gonna need each other and I guess the only positive thing
56:55: I could say about the the coming persecution that we all know is is Going to be there is it'll probably burn this stuff right out.
57:03: I Mean, oh, yeah one could hope I mean, I would really hope that there would not be a kind of division
57:10: In you know in a jail cell based upon the kind of skin you've got or something like that I mean,
57:17: I really hope that that's what what the result would be But it does have you call you said you're concerned by I'm when
57:24: I say I'm concerned I'm concerned because it seems to me that it reflects upon fundamental gospel problems in regards to what
57:34: Paul's emphasis was relating to Jews and Gentiles his
57:41: I mean he was very very concerned that there not be a division between Jews and Gentiles and Yet even when the early church experienced that trouble it had with the widows
57:53: You don't find the result of that being some new theology about You know being ethnically sensitive or something like that You have instead the
58:04: Deacons being put in charge of making sure that there is fairness and that there is an application
58:09: Of the one truth that was supposed to be being applied all along So to me, it's it's a vital issue
58:17: But it's but as you know I mean, I know you listen as often as you can It's not a subject that I'm that you know,
58:24: I'm beating the drum on all the time. Nope It but it comes up about twice a year right now
58:32: Sometimes it comes up and I don't see it on social media. I don't see what's going on. I'm just oblivious I was having so much fun
58:42: Last night. I got to spend like about four hours in a row on CBGM and I'm getting pretty close
58:49: To where I'm feeling comfortable in starting to put together a presentation for everybody on CBGM and how it works and what my concerns are and where I think there's strengths and weaknesses, but that's where I am
59:05: I'm not I'm not out there trolling around looking for videos You know about this guy or that guy or anything else?
59:12: So when it so what happens I you know, I have to respond to it But I try to respond to it in such a way that it's like hey folks
59:20: I'm going down to South Africa in a few weeks and I'm gonna be in churches. I can remember
59:26: I'm sitting here right now Thinking about the one church. I'm gonna be in in South Africa. I'm also going to Zambia Unfortunately, I have to get a bunch of inoculations for that.
59:34: That sounds like fun. But anyway This one church outside of Johannesburg, I'm Reflecting right now on What that room looked like on a
59:46: Sunday morning when I preached on the role the Holy Spirit from John chapter 14 I don't know about I forget when that was.
59:53: I think it was right at a year ago now something like that and there were people as Dark as you and there were people as white as me and there were
01:00:06: Indians as in India Indians not Indians as we have in the United States, but India Indians because there's a very large you know
01:00:16: Hindu population stuff like that people have come from India and You didn't have the dark people on one side of the room and the white people on the other side of the room the
01:00:26: Indians in between it was thoroughly mixed there was there was
01:00:34: There was no thought across my mind at any point in opening the
01:00:39: Word of God that well I Need to run this filter. I need to run that filter I need to make sure not to say this for this group and not say that for that group and there's gonna be sensitivity
01:00:48: None of that what they wanted was an accurate handling of the
01:00:55: Word of God period that's what they wanted and that created Such a sense of unity and worship
01:01:04: We we were singing together with all these different dialects and all the different accents coming together in this this beautiful harmony that is just just wonderful, but The sad thing is it seems like some of these folks
01:01:21: Kofi think that I'm there's something wrong with me that I can stand in Front of a group like that and I'm not counting colors
01:01:29: I'm not Taking into account how many of this how many of that how many of these how many unknown?
01:01:37: And so it seems like they feel that's inappropriate. That's wrong. I need to be doing that I need to be running those filters and that's what's frightening to me because that just seems to be the absolute recipe for division in the body
01:01:54: Well, I understand you're you're learning Greek How's I have you hit the participles yet?
01:02:01: We have not hit possible yet Being told by everyone. I'll stop pulling my hair out. Well, well, no no
01:02:11: You know participles are verbal nouns. So if you've if you've got your the problem in first -year
01:02:17: Greek is simple you normally get through the nouns pretty well because you haven't been overwhelmed yet with vocabulary and Translation and stuff like that you start getting into verbs and let's be honest with you
01:02:28: That's where most of us are weak in our own languages as it is we're not super clear on direct objects indirect objects and gerunds and and Infinitives and all the rest that kind of stuff and so it starts getting a little murky the vocabulary starting starting to get heavy
01:02:46: The the translations are getting longer and more difficult more biblical too If you're using certain workbooks and things like that, which is really neat and So then you have to combine those two you have to combine your nouns and your verbs
01:03:03: To To come up with your participles and That's where it's like wait a minute
01:03:11: You know, I was just keeping the noun set straight and the verb straight and now I got to mix these together in this mess
01:03:19: Take take my advice In my opinion, there are few things in my did you ever see do you know who
01:03:27: Bob Ross was? Yes, yes, yes pretty happy little trees happy little trees
01:03:36: I miss Bob Ross. That was if the world watched more Bob Ross. There would be fewer wars there really would be we'd sit down and agree we would we would paint with each other instead of killing each other, but Bob Would would do these things at the beginning
01:03:53: That at the end you'd sit back and go wow I would not have seen how that was going to have such an impact at the end
01:04:00: It's a it's a really beautiful aspect of the painting and in my opinion Participles are the are what provide you with the undertones and the the the the splashes of color in the text
01:04:17: More than any other part of speech and so don't let it get into your mind that you hate these
01:04:27: Get into your mind I really want to I really want to grasp these
01:04:34: Because when you get into second year and you start looking at the syntax of participles, that's really where you're gonna find such beauty in In what they they bring to the exegesis of the text and and things like that they are without a doubt my favorite
01:04:52: Part of Greek grammar. My least favorite are infinitives. There's no question about it.
01:04:58: I Don't like them never never have never will but But participles Wow, they are especially when you get into second year
01:05:06: You just start going whoo, man that there is there is quite the awesome range of stuff there so so don't let the
01:05:17: Wear and tear that starts hitting once you get into perfect passive in the verbs you get out of the verbs is like, huh?
01:05:24: Oh, is there more and the next thing up is participles and it tends to color people in Bad bad bad use of term there.
01:05:32: It's color people's perceptions Of the of the participle and it makes it you know it
01:05:44: You'll see you'll see once you start doing exegesis and especially, you know, Paul can use them in such amazing ways, but John the one believing a substantival participle in the in the present tense
01:05:56: Versus use of the heiress and things like that. There's there's great stuff. So so don't don't give up press on and Learn learn those participles, especially you'll you'll thank me in second year if you get a chance to do second year
01:06:10: Yeah, well, thanks for the encouragement doc, you're most welcome and thank you for your phone call today. I appreciate any time
01:06:16: All right. God bless. All right. Bye. Bye So mr. Paris, are we having problems? You have to reset the phone bank
01:06:25: Okay, so that's why other people aren't able to call in Getting voicemail. Yeah.
01:06:35: Oh, I know. I know something Something's going on in here because we both had to reset our
01:06:43: Our our computers we had to read, you know, we did reset Hmm, we reset the internet and I think the phone bank was already up so I'm gonna have to You haven't had to reset the phone bank in years.
01:07:00: Well Okay, so what we're doing for just like two calls but if we can do that we'll we'll try to do that What's what's
01:07:15: Ha okay, I do have something to talk about there is a guy I Let me let me ask the folks in channel, especially taco or cco3
01:07:26: Jr. Manahan Jer Manahan Proud to be a glacier in a crystal
01:07:39: Just tweeted as as just now, all right, we will give you a rest this time
01:07:45: We'll we'll what will be your excuses this coming fall so I imagine he's saying we'll see or something what your excuses will be this coming fall
01:07:58: So he's been going after me the whole show. I don't know. I just this just came up.
01:08:03: Yeah, I know He's he's been going after me. Oh, we were we were not born yesterday just to let you know, sir.
01:08:09: Oh I see. Okay. Oh Okay, he's doing the whole thing. Yeah Oh Excuses excuses, this is this is mr.
01:08:20: Manahan. Let me let me let me say something to you. Mr. Manahan We do scholarly
01:08:29: Adult debates, okay, you're acting like a child stop it or we're not even gonna bother
01:08:37: Okay, you're acting like you're a member of a cult You're acting infantile
01:08:44: Both sides have been working on this there have been issues in trying to find the proper location
01:08:51: When we did the debate in South Dakota afterwards there is a discussion about doing debate in San Diego not an hour and a half outside of San Diego and If you know the situation, you know that people on the ground including those from your own side
01:09:12: Have been working to find a location and every time to find one They get there and find out it's not going to be what is wanted.
01:09:19: I said to Joe Ventilacion I said hey you and I could sit down in a studio and Just record this because all
01:09:31: I care about is that the debate take place and That the video be made available to people all around the world
01:09:37: You are the ones who want to have and and this is because of how you do things you want to pack the audience and It's your speakers job to get your people all riled up.
01:09:49: That's how you That's how you do it. That's not how you communicate truth, but that's how you do things We know that's how you do things.
01:09:56: All right, and so you got all your guys up there with all their books. It's all show How about you have one guy versus one guy?
01:10:07: One on one I don't need anybody I don't need to have a second a third or fourth or 25th
01:10:13: How about just one guy? against one guy We've got folks
01:10:19: I'll come over to San Diego because that's where that's what I understood I was told the Joe Ventilacion is in San Diego now.
01:10:26: So that's why we said let's do it in San Diego. We Contacted some folks that have done a great job and in fact, they can do video super duper excellent job of video recording
01:10:39: So, how about we just do it that way how about we find a place and Mono a mono with a moderator
01:10:48: I gotta have a moderator. I'm afraid in this situation mono a mono
01:10:55: Super high quality video presentation no audience at all. We make it available to the whole world
01:11:01: Then you don't have to worry about how many parking lots parking spaces. There are how far outside the city it is any of that stuff
01:11:09: The I've I offered that got the emails can prove it. I offered that to Joe from the start because I'm like hey, the only reason
01:11:19: I'm interested in doing this is The primary topics in dealing with INC are
01:11:25: The deity of Christ we did that I'm more than happy to let anyone view that for themselves and see what they think of it
01:11:32: And then the INC claimed to be the one true church based upon the most egregious
01:11:39: Isagetical twisting of a couple texts in the Old Testament primarily in Isaiah That are easily refuted
01:11:48: Easily refuted Those are pretty much the primary topics
01:11:53: I mean, you know, I mean, I suppose you could do one, you know about the net What's the nature of church membership or something like that?
01:11:59: But if the INC is not the one true church, that's that's sort of taking care of right there. So There you go there.
01:12:05: How about we just real easily that way? You know, what's what's
01:12:11: Joe's schedule I know my schedules filling up right now, but We can find a time.
01:12:16: Well, San Diego is not that far away and With all due respect. This isn't that difficult of a topic to prepare for it's just a matter of Addressing the few texts that you all use trying to connect 1914 done that with some other groups 1914 and the establishment of the
01:12:34: INC in the Philippines and what the far far east is and a few things like that and Then the
01:12:40: New Testament teaching on what the actual nature of the church is that that's that's pretty straightforward We can we can make that work out so You know, you're the ones that want to have the big group there you're the ones that want to have the big audience
01:12:55: And yet you and I both know that the vast majority of people that are gonna be watching this
01:13:01: Are you watching it online? Anyways, right and so There's there's my option but just stop with the the child child is taunting
01:13:13: Running away scared hiding all the rest that stuff. It's just it's just I don't like dealing with schoolyard bullies
01:13:21: And and that's what you're being. Mr. Manahan. So just just knock it off. Just just stop just stop
01:13:27: Yeah, I hadn't seen that rich But yeah, I because I wasn't linked in it.
01:13:33: But for those of you who are wondering obviously, we're attempting to arrange another debate with INC Iglesia Ni Cristo and That was what that was all about.
01:13:44: So we got to comment that way. Let's just take two calls just two. Sorry. We Had the phone phone bank is now.
01:13:51: Oh Got got just the one Okay, so we got room for one other is it working or is it not hard to say, huh?
01:14:04: Okay. All right. Well if someone wants to try to get in if not, we've got we're having some kind of problem with the phone
01:14:09: Lines, so I'm not sure. I'm not sure what's going on there But let's talk with Anthony hi
01:14:17: Anthony. Hi. Dr. White. How are you doing? Pretty good.
01:14:22: Good. Good It was even
01:14:29: Anderson and You talked a bit about where the thief on the cross was headed
01:14:36: When he said today you'll be with me in paradise So I'm curious is your understanding of paradise heaven.
01:14:43: Is it not heaven? And does that have implications as to where? if where the
01:14:50: People went when they died before Jesus died and rose again from the dead well, that was right toward the end and it ended up being really a discussion of The idea that the
01:15:06: King James is inconsistent in its rendering of particular words and Anderson's argument that that is inspiration and therefore we should
01:15:18: Create our theology based upon an inconsistent an inconsistency. There was actually derived from the fact that you had different committees
01:15:28: Translating the King James he didn't have a final committee that smoothed all that out to make sure that the committee and the
01:15:34: Gospels and the committee on Paul had Translated the same words in the same way. And so I mean that's just that's just cultically absurd
01:15:44: For Anderson to say that well because the King James inspired then that was that's you're supposed to build our our
01:15:50: Theology all of that and so Jesus goes to hell and all the rest is Wild and wacky stuff that he ended up coming up with there at the end and I just said, okay
01:15:58: We've we've done two and a half hours. That's that's more than enough and I think 90 seconds of that ended up in his movie anyway, so But I just briefly gave my understanding.
01:16:08: There's there's different understandings as to the nature of this But my understanding is that Shaul had days up until the crucifixion is the realm the dead
01:16:19: That When you look at Luke 16, you can call it a parable Jesus doesn't call it a parable, but it's based upon an understanding of a a place of holding in regards to the dead and then as I understand it because of The death of Christ his people are in his presence upon their death.
01:16:42: That's what Paul says and so when he led captivity captive there is a
01:16:48: Removal from Shaul had days Shaul is the Old Testament term had days the
01:16:53: New Testament term Sheol or Hades. There is a removal of the believers in God into the presence of God the believer who dies goes directly in the presence of God and Those others who die are kept under punishment
01:17:11: Reserved as Peter puts it reserved under punishment for the day of the Day of Judgment and then you get to the
01:17:17: Book of Revelation and Shaul slash Hades is cast into the lake of fire.
01:17:23: So Shaul the Hades is not the lake of fire but it is cast into the lake of fire, so there's a
01:17:33: You know there there are some that would say that that's that's too explicit and others that would say it's not explicit enough
01:17:41: But it's it's the best understanding that I have of the utilization of that that terminology at that time
01:17:48: Would you say the passage of 1st Peter where Christ is going and releasing the prisoners is that talking about I Think that that's in regards to Since it's specifically talking about Christ's work after his his death and then at his resurrection
01:18:06: That's been connected to leading captivity captive and The removal of those
01:18:11: Saints and and the fact that they are then in the presence of Christ So yeah, I think that's probably what what's what's being referred to there
01:18:20: Awesome, okay. Thank you so much for taking my call. Dr. White. Okay, appreciate it I want to let you know how much
01:18:25: I appreciate your ministry and I've grown and my friends have grown from your ministry So thank you for all you do. Well, well, thank you.
01:18:31: I think I appreciate it. God bless Alright, you too. Bye Alright, we'll take one more and then let's
01:18:40: Real real quick. Hold on Nathan. I just looked over at the channel and somebody in channel did mention something that I wanted to Just 30 seconds bunch of headlines today people saying that the
01:18:54: Pope said there's no hell I believe the Pope's universalist and So I Would not be surprised at all if he believes that that hell is just as simply a metaphor for non -existence
01:19:11: I Think most of the bishops of the Roman Catholic Church are universalists or or at best inclusivist
01:19:20: Only the most wildly conservatives still hold a orthodox Historical Roman Catholic perspective in regards to the necessity of baptism for salvation and all the rest of it
01:19:31: But at the same time a private interview With a reporter with some questions about how accurately he reports things
01:19:43: That's that's not how dogma is done in Rome Okay, so there's every reason to point out this
01:19:50: Pope is not an orthodox Pope But at the same time you can't hold him dogmatically
01:20:00: To the statement that has been been reported if he comes out in a papal bull in an encyclical in you know, some official type statement and says
01:20:14: The dead simply cease to exist. There is no place of conscious punishment or any kind of punishment at all
01:20:23: Okay, then you've then you've got a major crisis well 30 years ago.
01:20:31: You would have had a major crisis. I'm not sure that you would anymore to be honest with you because I would say
01:20:36: That conditionalism is probably the majority view of New Testament scholars today now
01:20:43: I'm using the term New Testament scholars very broadly at that point a non -conditional perspective,
01:20:50: I think while majority in A Majority in the pew is a minority in The classroom, that's my guess
01:21:04: That's my guess and I think I'm using classroom very very broadly there So yeah, there you go.
01:21:10: All right, so there's that and let's wrap up by talking to Nathan in Dallas. Hi Nathan Yes, sir
01:21:20: Um, so I I grew up in the in the Church of Christ for most of my life did you sing hymns?
01:21:28: I'm sorry. Did you have musical instruments or not? Oh No musical instrument. Okay, so the old style, but this is old old -style
01:21:36: Church of Christ Now and so as you probably know most of the old style is pretty much at least semi
01:21:43: Pelagian It's not sometimes full -on Pelagian. Yep So in trying to defend the idea that our works
01:21:53: Come into play. They will make the argument that there is a distinction in the
01:21:58: New Testament between works of law specifically speaking about the law of Moses and Works of obedience and so they will point to if you try and point to a verse like Ephesians 2 8 9
01:22:11: They will say no that's talking about the old law of Moses that's only saying we're not saved by the by the law of Moses We're only we're saved now by by being obedient to by doing works of obedience is
01:22:23: But obedience assumes a legal standard of fulfillment There has to be some law that's being obeyed
01:22:31: I mean the very very word obedience has within it verbally
01:22:36: The idea of a standard that that determines the the behavior so My response would be well, the problem is
01:22:45: In the New Covenant that law that you're saying isn't any more relevant is written upon our hearts
01:22:52: We desire to obey that law Paul for example says that it was the law saying thou shalt not covet that killed him because he had that Covetous nature.
01:23:05: Well, what what's that a part? It's part of the Mosaic law. That's the moral element of that law It's not the ceremonial.
01:23:10: So it sounds like what you're saying is they are playing upon the ceremonial moral distinction but then saying that Ephesians 2 is only about the
01:23:23: Ceremonial and not the moral aspects of that law. Is that is that what they're saying? Possibly Because they'll they'll actually make a don't make a distinction friends.
01:23:35: They'll reference things like like Galatians 6 2 and in 1st Corinthians 9 21 that speak of the law of Christ and Then they turn that into I don't know if you've ever heard the
01:23:46: Church of Christ five -step plan of salvation here believe repent confess and be baptized and to them that that is the law of Christ and then they'll go to other passages about Obeying the gospel of Christ and well, this is this is a little being obedient to the law of Christ and so they'll say that's what it is and so this is the law of Christ that you have to do these five things to be saved and those are the works of obedience as apart from The the works of the
01:24:19: Old Testament. Yeah. Well, it sounds like there's a a distinction being smuggled in there
01:24:25: That can divide the law up in such a way that you can say well
01:24:31: The the sacramental I'm sorry second the the symbolic And maybe just in those laws in regards to the
01:24:41: Nation of Israel had been fulfilled in Christ whereas the Moral law continues to need to be obeyed to gain salvation
01:24:52: Really the only way to deal with the Church of Christ that I've ever seen Is not to have three night -long debates over x238, which which they really enjoy doing
01:25:02: They will do that. Oh man alive. I've never understood how I mean I I could do a two -hour debate or x238, but that's about it after that.
01:25:10: You're just repeating yourself So they must and you and you would be surprised at what kind of topics you could discuss
01:25:16: Well, they can sneak x238 in there somehow. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah They're experts at no tways, but I know but in my from my perspective
01:25:25: Dealing with their view of baptismal Centrality of baptism this issue in regards to obedience of law all these things it all goes back to having a proper understanding not only of God's sovereign decree, but the nature of election and especially the deadness of man and sin if if if if a true biblical
01:25:48: Anthropology about man's Inabilities can be brought to bear and and I I've told the story before but we had a
01:25:54: Church of Christ lady come into our chat channel back in the 90s And she was very confident that she would be able to show us
01:26:01: Calvinist that we were all a bunch of wackoids It was John 6 that that nailed her the ground and I've said over and over again whenever I've narrated the story
01:26:12: Here was a woman who absolutely was committed to believing what the Bible said you had to give her that it was really really neat and it cost her a lot, but she she couldn't get around John 6 no matter what she did and what's one of the central elements of John 6 other than the
01:26:27: Sovereignty of God you also have the absolute deadness of man and sin you have no man is able and we would
01:26:33: We would talk to her about that She'd go to her elders get a response come back and we'd say no Let's follow this through again
01:26:40: And and eventually they had nothing that they could could say anymore because of the strong emphasis upon the inability of man
01:26:47: So I really think with the with the Church of Christ and especially on stuff like that You've got to go presuppositional.
01:26:55: You've got to go more basic. You've got to go to where they're they are Smuggling in the answers to the objections without ever having to defend those objections
01:27:04: That is you got to deal with the deadness of man and sin because once you've dealt with that the whole idea of of my
01:27:11: Being able to fulfill a law and add that to the work of Christ So as to maintain those benefits or something just doesn't make any sense
01:27:19: Of course the nature of what it means to be regenerated and what it means to be in Christ I mean, it's really it's all of soteriology once you have a system like that They can't really make sense out of being in Christ having a
01:27:34: Him being responsible to make sure that all who are in him are saved The perfection of atonement all that stuff.
01:27:41: There's just no basis for it within that system So that's really where I think where you got to go with it
01:27:47: Okay, okay Okay. Okay. Thank you so much. Dr. Watt. I really appreciate it. Appreciate it. God bless. All right.
01:27:53: Thank you. Bye. Bye All right, that does it we went right to 230 and I've got to get some stuff done and then get out to The Easter pageant in in Mesa pray that we get some conversations
01:28:09: I'm gonna tell you real quick We used to by the end of the Easter pageant. We would be hoarse
01:28:15: From how much talking we did now if you can get anybody to stop for any period of time at all without tripping them
01:28:23: It's real tough, it's real tough Mormonism is changing it is but they still need to hear the gospel so pray for the outreach out there watch the
01:28:33: Apologia Studios Facebook feed you might be able to see some of what's going on out there a little bit later this evening and And we'll talk with you next week here on the dividing line.