August 5, 2021 Show with Stephen Atkinson on “The Heresies of John Hagee & Dual Covenant Theology”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions, and now here's your host,

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensirenradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this fifth day of August 2021, and I'm thrilled to have back on the program, after a long absence, my dear friend

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Stephen Atkinson, who is director of ministry for Christian Witness to Israel North America, also known as CWI North America, and today we are going to be addressing exposing the heresies of John Hagee and dual covenant theology.

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Do Jews and Gentiles have separate ways to heaven? And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Stephen Atkinson.

02:01

Thank you, Chris. Good to be back with you all. I think it's been about 15 months.

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I think the last time I did a quick check on my notes and discovered that actually you had myself and my colleague,

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Mitch Tepper, on a little bit after the COVID lockdown and how all of that was affecting our

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Jewish friends. And particularly Mitch was drawing in his wisdom from the

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Jewish community, and as he put it, that the paranoia within Jewish lives just got a little worse,

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I think, with the whole COVID thing. But I'm glad he said that rather than me. But yeah, it's been about 15 months, so yeah,

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I'm very happy to be back with you again and addressing an important subject. And indeed,

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I hope to not only address it, but lead us into greener pastures. I think I said with you, you know, earlier to you, that while I'm very happy to address the subject,

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I don't want to give this kind of false theology too much airtime.

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I would rather lead into the truth. But of course, we have to expose error, and we have to be clear in our theology, and particularly when it comes to the whole subject of Israel and the

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Jewish people. There is just so much confusion and so much lack of clarity.

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And so yeah, in a nutshell, very glad to be able to be here and try to clarify some of the issues that we have before us on the whole subject of Israel, the people

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Israel, the land of Israel, and some theologians that are peddling a different way to heaven for the

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Jewish people. Well, tell us about, since it's been a while since you've been on, tell us about Christian Witness to Israel, North America, also known as CWI North America.

03:57

Well, we have been in existence, at least not personally, but obviously our ministry goes right back to the 1840s, and particularly the burden of the

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Scottish Presbyterians, and even London Baptists. And so in 1842, there was a ministry began in London to bring the

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Gospel to the Jewish people of London. And I really believe very strongly that it was a theological burden that then spilled over into intentional evangelism, and that kind of is my key for most of the things that I try to present and try to bring forth in all my ministry, that all our intentional evangelism must come forth from a

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Biblical mandate, and our Biblical mandate must issue forth in correct mission, intentionality, and activity.

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And I think that's really where we part ways with some of our radical dispensationalists, and some who are peddling this dual covenant theology.

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It is a theological question that we need to raise. And so, all that to say, we started in 1842 out of a theological burden that then spilled over into intentional mission, and we've been in existence almost 180 years, next year will be 180 years.

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I came over here in 2012, as you tell my accent is changing, and as of about nearly two years ago,

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I became an American citizen, so I can speak to my fellow Americans. But I moved over here from Northern Ireland, and had been the representative for Christian Witness to Israel in Ireland, and then was moved over here for the purpose of developing things on these shores.

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And I think, you know, the more I am here, the more I realize the importance of the ministry of CWI, but also just the importance of the

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Church getting a right theology on the whole subject of Israel. And so, we look both ways, in a sense.

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Our ministry, we look to teaching the Church a right approach to the people

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Israel, both in these shores and in the land and around the world. So we look at the

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Church and seek to assist and resource and challenge the Church, and then we also, obviously, look at the

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Jewish people that are around us here in the United States, and then also around the world, and seek intentionally to bring the

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Gospel through frontline mission work, and also through volunteers, and also through just generally helping the

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Church be the Church to its Jewish neighbors, particularly here in the

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United States. So, in a nutshell, we are a Gospel -driven, theologically -driven ministry to bring the

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Messiah to the ancient people. And it is our joy and delight to do that, and it is also a challenge to us whenever we see that not happening, because of either bad theology or just a kind of a displaced theology.

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Instead of replacement theology, I think sometimes there is a displacement theology.

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And so, I would like to see embracement theology, if you can allow me to use that phrase, because I think we should embrace the ancient people, but embrace the ancient people in the right way, not with a slogan, we stand with Israel, but rather an embracement with the love of Israel's God in Israel's Messiah.

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So that's a long answer to your very short question, but I hope it gives a good intro into both what we're doing, and also the content of our conversation this afternoon.

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Well, I know that some very key historical figures played very critical roles in Christian witness to Israel, including

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Charles Haddon Spurgeon and Robert Murray McShane, am I right? Indeed, yes.

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Spurgeon preached for this ministry on no less than four occasions. He was a good friend of the ministry, obviously, in London, and he preached the annual sermon of the

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Society back in the day. But then, going back a little bit further from Spurgeon, too, as I said, the

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Scottish Presbyterians, you had Robert Murray McShane, and the Bonners, and Rabbi Duncan, John Rabbi Duncan, and there was, again, a very strong theological interest in bringing the

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Gospel back to the Jewish people. And again, I would suggest that that even goes further back than just the

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Scottish Presbyterians, it goes back to 1700s, Charles Simeon, 1700s, 1600s, the

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Westminster Divines. I think that it was really theology driving this theology.

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But yeah, McShane was involved, he prayed the opening prayer of our first ever meeting in November 1842, and it was just lovely to have such names.

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But you know, names are names. I think these guys themselves would not want to consider themselves great figureheads except that they were

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Biblical scholars, and that they saw from the Scriptures the imperative of Jewish mission, and indeed, of course,

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Spurgeon, he saw the imperative of all mission, and was very much a

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Gospel man, if you want to put it in those terms. But yeah, we have some names that are part of our history, but ultimately it is the

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Scripture that will drive us, not just a good memory, not just a good name. But yeah,

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I'm happy to name -drop, but also to realize that it's the Bible that drives us, not just our heroes of the past.

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By the way, I was just notified by your colleague Mitch Tepper, who is listening right now to our interview.

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Okay. I need to be very careful then. I think you need to be a lot more worried about Mitch when he's on the show.

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Yeah. Oh, I'm glad you said that. I'm glad you said that, yes.

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You are really in trouble now. Well, he's closer to you. See, I'm way down in Arkansas, but he's right next door to you in Pennsylvania.

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Yeah, in Pittsburgh. I just even to mention that Mitch is there in Pittsburgh and doing street evangelism.

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Please pray for him. He's doing street evangelism there Tuesdays and Thursdays. And if you're ever in the

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Pittsburgh area and you would like to see what we do, he's on a street corner in Squirrel Hill, Pittsburgh, Jewish Pittsburgh.

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And he's there bringing the gospel to the Jewish people. Some fascinating stories.

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Yeah, you need to get Mitch back on the program and hear some of the stories of the encounters that he's been having.

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And, you know, it's been wonderful to see the work develop in that way. I'm sure

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I will. And I am planning on repeating this website, but for anyone who wants to do further investigation of a

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Christian witness to Israel, North America, go to CWINA .org.

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That's C -W -I for Christian Witness to Israel, N -A for North America .org.

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C -W -I -N -A .org. Well, one of the reasons... And I would just maybe,

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I'd just add to that very simply that we have updated that website within the past six months or so.

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So I'm quite pleased with the way we have upgraded things, let's say.

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And so there's a lot of resources on there, both historical resources and also resources to help believers reach their

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Jewish neighbors. We've actually just begun a new course that we've called the Awakening the

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Conscience course, which will ultimately have 20 sermons, lectures on there from a biblical and historical and present -day practical aspect.

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So in three areas, we're seeking to help the church have a biblical base for Jewish mission, have an understanding of the history, and then also how to in the present

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Jewish world. And so again, those resources are available on our website,

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C -W -I -N -A .org. I'll just add a little bit to that in that our international ministry has changed its name.

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So we are partners and we are a daughter church, you might say, of what formerly was

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Christian Witness to Israel, but it is now known as the International Mission to Jewish People. And just last

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January, the mission internationally changed its name. But in our wisdom, for good or ill, we have kept the name here.

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I'm tempted to say it's taken me 10 years to build up a brand recognition. So we're still keeping the name here.

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But we are part of, if any folks that are listening in see International Mission to Jewish People, that's, again, the

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McShane Mission of 1842. That's the same one we have. Simply on an international level, we have developed that name.

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But locally, C -W -I -N -A .org, and you'll find all relevant resources right there.

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One of the reasons that I wanted to bring up the name of John Hagee and dual covenant theology today,

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I know that we've addressed it as a part of interviews we've conducted, but I don't know if we've ever conducted an entire show on this.

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But one of the reasons that I wanted to do that is because of one of my favorite political commentators,

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Mark Levin, who has a program on Fox News television.

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One of my favorite hosts on Fox News, because I'm having a lot of problems lately with Fox News.

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The leftward leaning in many cases of different hosts and guests that they have prominently on that network, pro -abortionists and so on.

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But Mark Levin, next to Tucker Carlson, is I believe my favorite host on that station.

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And I was dismayed, not long ago, to see that Mark Levin has developed a friendship with John Hagee, and Mark Levin is a

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Jewish individual who does not believe that Christ is his

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Lord, God, Messiah, and King. And therefore, the influence of someone like John Hagee is disastrous, in my opinion.

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Why don't you let our listeners know exactly, and I know that you don't want to dwell on it.

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I'm happy, I'm sorry, I'm happy to speak to that. But I think, you know,

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John Hagee, like many major figures in the televangelist world and in megachurches, they can be slippery figures, in the sense that it's hard sometimes to tie them down to exactly what they believe, because, bottom line,

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I'm tempted to say that pragmatism rules the day, so whatever works. I think in this, you can go online and you can find quotes from John Hagee, and I just recently did that, and any of your listeners can just go online and find ten heresies that John Hagee has said.

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But the truth is, he has allied himself in the past also with Pat Robertson and others that have basically been saying that there are two ways into heaven.

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This is the dual covenant theology position. The classic position is that Torah -observant

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Jews are already in covenant with God and do not need to come to the

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Messiah. That's a quote that I once read in the Houston Chronicle. Again, your listeners can go online and just check out some of these quotations and just see what they are.

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I remember one time hearing people talk about the Hagee heresy and things like this, and I said, okay,

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I'm going to check this out and I'll get their magazine. And so I picked up their magazine, and now, of course, you can either get the magazine or you can go online to cufi .org,

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C -U -F -I dot org, and you can see what Christians United for Israel.

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This is Hagee's big operation, let's say. And you can see what it stands for.

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You can see what its belief is. You can see what its, you know, I'm online at the moment just looking at it.

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What are the issues? And you can learn about what are the issues. But it is all political.

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It is all about a piece of real estate in the Middle East. It is all about the land of Israel and has nothing to do with gospel or the people needing their

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Messiah. And I remember reading their 32 -page full -color magazine one time, read it cover to cover, slowly, and because I wanted really just to check, am

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I being biased? Am I being unfair? Well, I read the magazine, and in all 32 pages, it never mentioned

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Jesus once. Never once. And I came away from that just stunned that here is a magazine, apparently the largest

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Israel ministry in the United States with over 3 million members, and it's entitled

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Christians United for Israel, and it didn't mention Jesus once.

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And I just thought to myself, well, what would the Apostle Paul say? What sayeth the

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Scriptures, we might say? And it just, again, makes me aware that one of the great issues that we face in the

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United States is a confusion over what is our stance on the

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Jewish people, on the land of Israel, and on the people of Israel, and what is our ministry?

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What is our mission? What is our witness to Israel, if we think of Christian witness to Israel?

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And it fell short. It heretically fell short when I read that magazine, and it did not even mention his name.

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You know, it's almost like Voldemort. It's almost like a Harry Potter thing, you know, the he who shall not be named.

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And I'm really saddened that 3 million Americans are sucked into a ministry to Israel that is

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Jesus -less. That's stunning, and it's appalling, and it needs to be remedied.

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And so, you know, for you and I to have this conversation, this is helpful in the sense that we need to alert the evangelical public that the

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Jewish people need Jesus, and any organization that omits his name, intentionally, yes, is not worthy of the name

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Christian. And, you know, that's where I stand in this, and I think that the heresy...

20:58

Well, you look up the quotes, and people can look up the quotes, and they can judge for themselves as to whether there's heresy there, but there is an absence of Jesus.

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There is an exit -Jesus rather than an exit -Jesus, if we can have a play on words.

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Jesus has left in this ministry, and that both saddens me, shocks me, and appalls me.

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Amen to everything that you just said. I stunned you into silence there, so I...

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Well, tell us, in summary, what dual covenant theology is, and how on earth can someone professing to be a

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Christian believe that there is anyone on earth that does not need to believe in the true

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Jesus Christ of Scripture and embrace Jesus Christ and his substitutionary death on Calvary's cross, and his bodily resurrection, how anyone could be saved, can enter into heaven, into God's presence for eternity, without believing and trusting solely in that?

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Yeah, I honestly... I'm at a loss to explain why and how anybody can believe in any other way.

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There is no other name given among man whereby we must be saved. There is no other

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Savior. There is no other substitute. There is no other atonement. And yet, the proponents of dual covenant theology will suggest that a

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Torah observance is still, in effect, a way, and again, those who consistently hold to a dual covenant theology will say that Torah observant Jews are still in covenant with God and they do not need to come to the

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Messiah. And to me, that is just, again, a negation of many scriptures, not least the book of Galatians.

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And I do think that we would do well to go back to some of these.

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And let's remember, the Apostle Paul was Jewish. Let's remember he was a Jewish lawyer. He was a

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Jewish Pharisee. He was a Hebrew of Hebrews. He knew his stuff far better than this

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Gaim over here sitting in Arkansas. He knew his stuff far better than the

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Gentile world. And yet, if anyone would fight the corner for a non -dual covenant position, it would be the

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Apostle Paul. It would be, he went to every synagogue under heaven, as was his custom, to tell his

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Jewish friends about Jesus, and to tell them of a new covenant as promised in Jeremiah 31, that the old covenant, these things are shadows and former things, the former things are passing away.

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And I think, again, I don't know whether it's just bad theology, but it seems,

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I don't see it as consistent theology that anybody can have a position that Jesus is for Gentiles and Torah observance is for Jews, but this is the world in which we live, and there are evangelicals, so -called evangelicals,

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I might put, that believe that that is the case. But sorry, the

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Apostle Paul would have issue with you, and so should every

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Bible -believing Christian should have issue with that kind of theology, and particularly so when it pertains to a people that you love or you purport to love.

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If you love Israel, if you love the Jewish people, why on earth would you not want to share the

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Gospel with our Jewish friends? Why on earth do you think it is something you should shy away from?

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If you love someone enough, you will want to share the Gospel with them so that they will share eternity with you.

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Again, the kind of stand -with -Israel mentality that stands by as Jewish people go to a vast eternity, that also is something that's stunning and appalling, and so this is why we, in our ministry, not only want to expose the dual -complement theology for what it is,

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I'm tempted to say it's not even a theology because it's inconsistent even within itself, and certainly it is insensitive to our

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Jewish neighbors who read this Gospel. In fact, yeah, we'll pick up right where you left off there.

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We have to go to our first break. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, we're

26:20

Stephen Atkinson of Christian Witness to Israel, also known as CWI North America.

26:26

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

26:32

As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence, if you live outside the

26:41

USA, and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

26:48

Let's say you are a Jewish individual who is starting to have questions about Christianity.

26:58

You're starting to think that there may be some truth behind the claims of born -again

27:08

Christians that you know or that you've heard on television or radio or that you've read in books or perhaps you have folks in your family who have become

27:21

Christian and they have neighbors and so on. Well, I could readily understand you would want to remain anonymous, if that be the case, or perhaps you are someone that is vehemently opposed to what my guest is saying.

27:40

Perhaps you're a big fan and supporter of John Hagee. Well, if you want to remain anonymous, that would be fine.

27:49

But if it's just a general question on dual covenant theology and any question involving evangelism to the

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Jewish people, please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Trumpet's Iron Radio. Our guest today for the entirety of the program is

33:02

Stephen Atkinson, Director of Ministry for Christian Witness to Israel, North America.

33:07

Also known as CWI. If you have a question for Stephen Atkinson on evangelizing the

33:15

Jewish people, on the heresies of John Hagee and dual covenant theology, or anything regarding the scriptures, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

33:26

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

33:34

Your colleague, Mitch Tepper in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, has a question that I think is a good question to ask right now in the beginning, or fairly in the beginning of the program here.

33:49

Do you know the origins of dual covenant theology? Do they predate John Hagee?

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I would reckon they probably do, although he would be one of the probably better known proponents.

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Yeah, I'm tempted to throw the question back at Mitch and say, Mitch, okay, you get the answer.

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He said he can't look it up because he's riding his bicycle right now. There you go. He's listening on headphones while riding his bicycle.

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Yeah, you know, I think the origins of any heresy, well, the origins of any heresy must come from the pit of hell, of course.

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The origins come from either misplaced, mistaken theology, and basic ignorance.

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You know, again, I try to answer this question with perhaps another question.

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Why is the Church so ignorant that it permits this kind of theology even within its fold?

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I've been to good churches where folks will come up to me after the service, oh, you know, that CUFI, we love that organization, that stands for Israel, doesn't it?

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And again, I'm just stunned that a thinking, or maybe a non -thinking evangelical public, are happy with a dual covenant theology.

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It goes by, I honestly can't answer Mitch's question, but just as with other heresies, they've probably been around from the get -go.

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And I would say even probably been around even in the Apostles' time. You know, when we went to Greek, I was just scribbling a couple of other spots on paper, and I was thinking,

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I wonder, you know, did the Apostle Paul come across dual covenant theology in his day?

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And what would it look like? Would it look like, hey, us Gentiles, we don't need that Jewish guy.

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You know, us Gentiles, we've got our Roman gods or our Greek gods. We don't need the Jewish guy.

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There's a dual covenant theology, but the Apostle Paul didn't accept that dual covenant theology.

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Instead, he went, you know, not only to the synagogues, but to the

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Areopagus, and he traveled across land and sea. And, you know, why didn't he leave

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Europe alone? Why didn't he just leave us alone, Paul? No, this Jewish guy who had an encounter, a life -changing encounter, with the risen

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Messiah of Israel, the Lord Jesus Christ, this Jewish guy traveled across land and sea to tell

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Gentiles about God's mercy and covenant with the world.

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And so even to suggest, it just seems so silly even to suggest that there are two ways, that there is a dual covenant.

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God is not split. God is one, and there is one name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

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And the Apostle wanted to tell the Gentile world about that one

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God of Israel and his one way of salvation through the substitutionary death of the

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Messiah of Israel. And so, yeah, that heresy has probably been around from the garden.

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But I'm not sure. And just as with all heresies, they take on various guises throughout history.

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Sorry, Mitch, I can't fully answer, because I'm not riding a bicycle, but I am sitting in front of a computer, and I suppose

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I could Google it as well as anyone, as to the origins of dual covenant theology.

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Sorry, Chris, that's a long answer. In fact, it's really a non -answer. I'll have to do my homework a little bit more on that.

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Where were the origins? Do you know any? It was actually you that wanted the subject. So, okay, brother, I'm going to throw it back at you.

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I think I already satisfactorily answered it. I said I believe that's what the

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Pharisees believed. You don't need Jesus. You need to be an observant Jew who is dedicating his life to observing the law.

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I mean, that's what they believed, so what's the difference? And the thing that's a real mind -blowing, self -destructing concept about this whole idea of a

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Christian teaching this is that if anybody could satisfy

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God by observing the law, Jesus Christ would not need to have come in the flesh and die a gruesome death on Calvary's cross and have the wrath of his father poured upon him.

39:17

Why on earth was that even necessary if people could observe the law?

39:24

In fact, was not Jesus' original audience nearly entirely

39:30

Jewish? Yes, yes. But then again, you know that the liberal heresies of the 1900s, early 20th century, 1800s, 1900s, early 20th century, the liberal heresies were that Jesus was just a good man.

39:48

Jesus was just giving us a good example. His death was not propitiatory.

39:54

His death was not a substitutionary atonement. And those kinds of heresies that have come in would suggest, well, all you need to do is to be sincere.

40:04

So all these nice Jewish people, they're just being sincere. They're sincere atheists, they're sincere agnostics, they're sincere observants, they're sincere

40:13

Orthodox and Hasidics and ultra -Orthodox. They're just sincere, and that's what gets you into heaven.

40:19

Sorry, no it doesn't. It never did. Adam might have been sincere, but he was sincerely wrong.

40:26

Go right through all of our scriptures, and we find man's story is one of failure.

40:33

All have sinned and fallen short, and therefore we need another. We need another's righteousness.

40:40

We need a righteousness that is not our own, but rather a righteousness that comes from God. And this is what we must declare to our

40:48

Jewish friends. And please God, if any Jewish person is listening in, we would love to share this

40:54

Jewish gospel with you, because it's glorious. And it speaks of a righteousness that is not according to the law.

41:02

It's not according to the blood of bulls and goats, but it's the blood of another, capital

41:09

A. It's the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, who alone is the one who is the propitiation for our sins.

41:17

And I think it goes back to an ignorance of our nature, and an ignorance of Bible, and an ignorance of theology in general, where you allow this kind of dual covenant, or another way, or a multitude of ways.

41:36

There is but one way, and we need to declare unashamedly that the

41:42

Jewish Messiah is the one way for all mankind by coming to faith in Him, repenting and believing in the

41:51

Lord Jesus Christ, the Yeshua HaMashiach. This is the only way for Jew and Gentile.

41:57

And I'm thankful. Again, I've said it in the past, but one of the great reasons that I am passionate about this subject is that I want

42:06

Gentiles to recognize their debt to the

42:12

Jewish guy who did not believe in dual covenant theology. For us. That he left his home shores to tell the

42:19

Gentile world about his Messiah Jesus. And I'm passionate to repay the debt. And I just am so saddened, sickened, annoyed, that we hear this kind of stuff peddled in the

42:32

U .S. So we stand with Israel. We want to bless Israel, blah, blah, blah. And it comes from a gross ignorance of theology, of scripture, and it does a great disservice to our

42:44

Jewish friends who are lost, and who need to hear the message of their Messiah.

42:50

And we must, church, we must awaken to this great need that is right on our doorstep, our

42:58

Jewish friends. We, under God, owe a debt to the sons of Abraham according to the flesh.

43:06

Under God, we owe a debt to our Jewish neighbors. And I think Mitch has heard me tell this story before, but a few months ago

43:15

I was with Mitch in Florida. And as you know, Mitch has had you pray for his dad.

43:22

His dad is a Jewish atheist. And his dad simply believes that when you die, you die.

43:32

And I remember just again a few months ago, I was there. We had a meal together,

43:38

Mitch and his dad and myself. And his dad wanted to pay. And I simply said, no, no,

43:43

Mr. Tepper, I'm paying. And he said, no, I want to pay. And I said, no, this is my thank you. This is my thank you.

43:50

Your Jewish Messiah, who you don't believe in, your Jewish Messiah has changed my life, the life of my children, the life of my grandchildren, of whom

44:00

I now have 12. And I have little ones that are in my home that are hearing the stories of Jesus.

44:09

Does that thrill me? And it's all because under God of a Jewish guy back in the

44:15

Middle East who wanted to share the story of his Messiah. And therefore,

44:21

I want to thank our Jewish friends for what they have brought to the

44:26

Gentile world. And I want to repay that debt. And I want every Christian to do that also.

44:33

So I just think it is shocking that we are repaying the debt so -called by a stupid dual covenant heresy.

44:42

And instead, we should bring forth the glorious gospel of the new covenant according to Jeremiah 31 and according to all of the

44:51

New Testament scriptures. By the way, we have John in Bangor, Maine, who says from his understanding of the beliefs and the heresies of a dual covenant prior to John Hagee.

45:07

He says he believes it finds its roots with the very well -known

45:15

Jewish philosopher. Maimonides. Yes, there you go.

45:20

And also that it was revived in the 20th century by Franz Rosenzweig.

45:32

Yes, I did notice that when I had a very quick look on the website prior to coming on the radio here.

45:40

And I saw those names coming up. I haven't really researched much more than that. But yes, thank you, brother, up in Maine, in Bangor, Maine.

45:48

In fact, I love your hometown because that's my hometown back in Northern Ireland. I come from Bangor, Northern Ireland.

45:56

Oh, wow. That somehow slipped my mind. So when I hear Bangor, Maine, that brings back home memories.

46:03

But I have not yet got up to Bangor, Maine. And maybe I should someday. Do you like bangers and mash?

46:11

Oh, definitely, definitely. But definitely have to be Irish bangers, not the imitations that you have here.

46:23

Yes, I probably had imitation at a local British pub right here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

46:33

Well, thank you, John, for that clarification. Thank you. The idea it's the when you any cursory knowledge of the

46:46

New Testament would make such an idea preposterous, even when you think about how the

46:52

Apostle Paul did not view the Judaizers as just another branch of Christianity that had a gospel that was acceptable.

47:05

They added one thing. They added one thing, and that was to circumcise.

47:12

Circumcision was actually necessary in the minds of the Judaizers for people to be truly

47:19

Christian and to be saved. Now, we're supposed to believe, according to John Hagee, that subtracting one thing and a very, very important thing, the very

47:31

Messiah of the world, the very

47:37

Son of God, the only begotten Son of God, who died on Calvary to propitiate the sins of his people, turn away the wrath of God for his people or from his people in order that they may be saved.

47:57

And the great exchange that takes place where our sin is imputed to Christ on the cross and his righteousness is imputed to us, that minor detail or those minor details can be subtracted from the gospel.

48:15

And in John Hagee's mind, that's fine and dandy with him. Yeah, but Chris, can

48:21

I ask you, and maybe can I ask you a question then, but we can focus on Hagee, we can focus on CUFI, we can focus on other organizations even, or even other historical figures that have peddled this position.

48:40

I want to ask you, and again, I am an American citizen, so please don't misunderstand, but I want to ask my fellow

48:48

Americans, why has the evangelical culture in the U .S.

48:53

so easily been duped by this kind of we stand with Israel, and we don't want to tell them about Jesus, we don't want to be insensitive, we want to just stand militarily with the land.

49:09

Why are we duped with that? Well, it could be a multitude of different reasons. Not everybody is duped by anything for the same reason.

49:18

Not everybody believes a falsehood for the same reason. But I think that for many people, this concept is a sigh of relief that they do not have to hurt the feelings of their

49:33

Jewish loved ones, their Jewish neighbors, their Jewish family members, by telling them, sorry, but you cannot enter into heaven without putting your total trust in the death, burial, and resurrection of the

49:49

God -man Jesus, Yeshua HaMashiach. I think that people love the idea that merely to join with Jews who are

50:04

Zionists, because obviously not everybody who identifies as a Jew is a

50:10

Zionist. There are liberal Jews in the United States who are anti -Zionist.

50:16

They actually support the Palestinian people, which is actually a modern invention.

50:25

Now, I think that it is wrong also, and I know that some listeners perhaps will be offended by this and upset with me, but I don't think it's correct to be in lockstep with the government, the atheistic government of Israel either.

50:42

But having said that, I think a lot of people just love this idea that they do not have to worry about losing friendships, losing relationships, by telling

50:54

Jewish people who they claim to love or care about or who somehow they benefit from a good relationship with them.

51:03

They don't want to hurt their feelings. They don't want to be cut off from them. So this is a way. That's just a guess, and of course

51:10

I can't speak, as I already said, this is not meant to be a broad -brushing answer. I think actually you've hit the nail on the head very much there.

51:19

I think it's kind of the wishy -washy, weak -willed evangelicalism that we don't want to offend anyone anymore, and we don't want to say anything that will cause another person, oh, you have offended me.

51:35

It seems the greatest sin that we are facing in 21st century life is that we might offend someone else's feelings, or we might offend someone else's perspective or identity, dare

51:50

I say it. We must not, thou shalt not offend seems to be the 11th commandment, and I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

52:00

There's a kindliness, or kind of a misplaced kindliness among Christians.

52:08

I don't want to be offensive to my Jewish neighbors, but I'm sorry, if someone's in a burning building, you have to rush in and extract them as swiftly as possible, and you may even need to yell at them a little bit to bring them forth.

52:27

But for kindliness' sake, to leave that, I better not be offensive.

52:35

I'm Scots -Irish, so we're the blunt guys. We'll come into a situation, and as we used to say, we call a spade a shovel.

52:45

In other words, we will tell it as is, and even more than it is. So we don't want this kind of mollycoddling, and just let's be kind to everyone.

52:58

We need a little bit of tough love. I'm a father of four and a grandfather of 12.

53:08

As of just a few weeks ago, we learned that number 12 is in the womb. And as I see my kids, they're disciplining their kids, and sometimes you've got to pull the kids away from the oven.

53:22

In fact, we've got to go to our midway break, folks. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages.

53:36

I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries. My friend Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and I are headed down to Atlanta, Georgia once again for the

53:45

G3 Conference. This year's G3 will be held Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd on the theme,

53:53

Christ is Supreme Over All. I'll be joined by over 20 other speakers and musicians to lead in the worship of God through preaching, teaching, and singing, including

54:02

John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Conrad M. Bayway, Darrell Bernard Harrison, and Virgil Walker.

54:08

For details, visit G3conference .com. That's G3conference .com. Chris Arnson and I hope to see you

54:15

September 30th through October 2nd at G321. This is James White reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

54:22

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnzen and the

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I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

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I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

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In Psalm 139 verse 14, the psalmist offers praise to the Lord like this,

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Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

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Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio on the air. This is

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If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe ten minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

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01:08:49

Before we return to our guest Stephen J. Atkinson and more of our conversation we have some very important matters to inform you of during this break first of all thank all of you

01:09:06

I thank all of you from the depths of my heart for your prayers for my oldest brother

01:09:12

John who is in a skilled nursing facility in Denton, Texas he has cancer and critical stage emphysema and was given a grim prognosis of six months to live by his doctor and I thank

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God that he is making very promising and encouraging statements about his faith in Christ please pray that he is not only physically healed but that his faith becomes even more vividly clear that he is trusting solely on Christ and his finished work on the cross for his entrance into heaven please pray for that and pray that all doubt is removed from my mind and heart regarding where my brother is headed as he may be approaching death if the

01:10:04

Lord does not spare him and extend his life on earth thank you all of you who have been praying and have been asking me for updates also folks if you are a man in ministry leadership whether you are a pastor, an elder, a deacon a leader in a parachurch ministry

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I ask of you please to send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:10:31

and say I want to attend the Iron Trip and Zion Radio Pastors Luncheon or more briefly just write

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Pastors Luncheon in the subject line send that email to chrisarnson at gmail .com I am having as my next

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Iron Trip and Zion Radio Luncheon speaker Dr. Conrad Mbewe of Kabwatha Baptist Church of Lusaka, Zambia, Africa one of the most powerful preachers alive on the planet earth in fact

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I think he is the most powerful preacher alive on the planet earth and I am not exaggerating that is

01:11:02

Monday, September 27th from 11am to 2pm

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Monday, September 27th from 11am to 2pm in Carlisle, Pennsylvania absolutely free of charge you are going to be fed physically for free you are going to be fed spiritually by Dr.

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Mbewe for free and you are also going to be taking home with you a sack, a heavy sack of free books provided by most of the major Christian publishers in the

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United States and the United Kingdom who have been donating these books every year since this luncheon began in the 1990s which was the brainchild of my precious late wife,

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Julie so please remember this is a men's only luncheon so if you are a man in ministry leadership send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:11:52

but Pastors Luncheon in the subject line and I look forward to seeing you, God willing, on Monday September 27th, 11am to 2pm in Carlisle, Pennsylvania also folks, if you love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves please go to ironsharpensironradio .com

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01:15:53

I have extensive lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world and I may be able to help you find a church as I have done already with many people in our audience spanning the globe so no matter where you live, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:16:06

and put I need a church in the subject line that's chrisarnson at gmail .com I need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you can send in a question to Steven Atkinson about exposing the heresies of John Hagee and dual covenant theology do

01:16:23

Jews and Gentiles have separate ways to heaven chrisarnson at gmail .com and right before the break

01:16:29

Steven, you were talking about parents who love their children do not allow their children to risk their lives just to spare their feelings was basically a summary of what you were saying and if you want to pick up where you left off absolutely

01:16:44

I think we've kind of covered a couple of areas that why is dual covenant theology so prevalent why are so many evangelicals just not aware of the eternal danger that it poses and one of those things is that the very casual approach to theology in general among evangelicalists so the ignorance the confusion that abounds pertaining to any theological issue but particularly a theology and a reformed theology on Israel so that's one area that we need to address but then the other area that you rightly pointed out and I pose the question to you is why is this present and your answer was simply that it's out of a kindliness almost that it's easier for Christians not to have to engage with their

01:17:44

Jewish neighbors because it might be offensive you know I'm thinking of several individuals who have spoken to me of their

01:17:53

Jewish friends from high school that you know for the past 30 or 40 years they promised you know we're not to talk about politics or religion we've been friends for 30 -40 years blah blah blah but we said to each other that we would never talk about politics and religion my answer to such folks that I come across I simply say well okay forget the politics but you've got to talk about Jesus and this because basically they talked to us about Jesus they brought the message to us

01:18:24

Christianity is Jewish in its first instance and I think we do need to have this kind of tough love approach to yes to kids who are in danger if our kids are in danger we guard them away from the danger or we guide them in the ways of pleasantness and peace so in a similar way we need to be will

01:18:50

I be an offensive for offensive sake we nonetheless need to show tough love to our

01:18:56

Jewish friends and say this is for real this is the one ultimate reality that we want to bring to you and express it in a loving and sensitive manner but not avoiding the subject as I said you know the

01:19:15

John Hagee magazine that had 32 pages and completely avoided that name of Jesus well we must not avoid that name of Jesus the name of our every name he needs to be made known among our

01:19:30

Jewish neighbors and if it's insensitivity well then it's insensitivity but we need to mention his name and we live just in a very in our 21st century it's funny but we live in a very inoffensive age that is the greatest sin that I was mentioning and we also live

01:19:51

I think with a couple of other realities that we must bring into the argument as well we live in a council culture reality and we live in a revisionist reality

01:20:03

I think pertaining to Israel the whole story the whole redemptive story the whole theology of Israel has been rewritten by the dual theologians

01:20:20

I'm tempted to say what would Jonathan Edwards say how would Jonathan Edwards address this issue or how would

01:20:28

Wilhelmus of Brackel in Holland in the 1600's how would he address this

01:20:34

I think it would be laughed out of court in the sense but 3 million

01:20:40

Americans are supportive of this kind of theology and so if it's confused theology we need to rectify that if it's just being nice because we don't want to be offensive we need to rectify that as well but we are living in days of revisionism and of council culture but when it comes to this one thing needful we need to get the focus right we have a faithful and generous supporter of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio who submitted a question

01:21:18

Grady in Asheboro North Carolina and I'm just enlarging the font of Grady's question because it's microscopic he says greetings brothers

01:21:32

I don't know about the rest of the country but in the south there were very few people of Jewish ethnicity we were taught in church that they are

01:21:42

God's special people and I don't ever remember it being mentioned that their salvation came in the same way as all people through the

01:21:51

Lord Jesus Christ the one Jewish person I know once told let me correct that the one

01:21:59

Jewish person I knew I guess he means while growing up once told me that he was a

01:22:05

Jew and was blessed by God I think this is why a lot of Americans believe that Israel is special also a pre -tribulation theology that makes

01:22:17

Israel seem special because of their beliefs that they had that they had to become a nation.

01:22:24

Do you have any comments on Grady's comments? I think

01:22:29

I would simply say yes to the special people so again if we could try to keep things not in terms of whatever let's say modern evangelicalism is peddling today but rather what the scriptures are saying and so I look upon for example

01:22:52

Romans 9 -11 and I see natural branches and unnatural branches so there is a distinction there is even in a sense a priority

01:23:04

Romans 1 -16 to the Jew first and also to the Greek so what our brother is saying in that email is that they are a blessed people they are a chosen people but they are not a saved people except in the only way that is possible through the death and resurrection of the

01:23:29

Lord Jesus Christ so there is no back door into heaven is what we are saying and therefore the imperative still remains with all of us to share the gospel

01:23:41

I do think that there have been a leaving them alone kind of thing that really must be reversed in our

01:23:51

US thinking there may be a love for Israel we are the most pro -Israel country on the planet that is good there is maybe a good biblical reason for that but a real love is a tough love as we have been making clear so we must look upon this beloved people and share the gospel with this beloved people because otherwise they are going to a lost eternity what are the other reasons when you ask me why

01:24:23

I think so many Americans are substituting

01:24:28

Zionism let me backtrack

01:24:34

Americans who profess to be Christian are substituting Zionism for evangelizing the

01:24:40

Jews I think it is a misunderstanding of some often repeated words in Genesis chapter 12 1 -3 where God is saying to the patriarch

01:24:57

Abraham the father of the Jewish people that I will bless those who bless you and him who dishonors you

01:25:06

I will curse and people attribute that to Christians in the 21st century must always support

01:25:13

Israel as a nation in order to fulfill that command or that statement by God to Abraham but Chris I must ask you the question what is the greatest blessing that has ever come upon your life being saved by the

01:25:32

Lord Jesus Christ Amen and is that not the answer to Genesis 12

01:25:37

Amen what is the greatest blessing that we can bring to the

01:25:43

Jewish people it has to be the one name above all names it just saddens me again to see us in our

01:25:54

US evangelicalism just being so earthly minded and so even

01:26:01

I might even add materially minded oh God will bless your business if you buy this prayer shawl from our wonderful ministry and God will bless your business and it's shocking again in fact it's appalling that you know we have this kind of Israel peddling and send your dollar to this

01:26:27

Israel ministry and God will bless you and it's just like a fortune cookie or it's like putting your money in the little fortune box

01:26:37

I'm sorry it just doesn't make any sense to me and when we just get to the root of it

01:26:43

Genesis 12 3 does apply but it applies in the right way it applies in a spiritual way

01:26:50

I will bless those who bless you and what does that mean doesn't mean you'll get loads of money and your business will prosper it means you will be blessed spiritually and I again

01:27:03

God is no man's debtor and we can't in a sense hold that before God and yet at the same time as I look at my own life

01:27:13

I have repeatedly said that when I came into Jewish mission midway through you know

01:27:19

I was a pastor for 18 years regular pastor when I came into Jewish mission in 2004 none of my kids have professed faith but in the past 17 -18 years of ministry with CWI all of my kids have professed faith two of my sons have gone through Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville and my two sons have now finished one has finished a

01:27:43

PhD in Biblical Linguistics and the other is finishing off a PhD in Old Testament and my little grandkids are all learning about Jesus am

01:27:53

I blessed you bet I'm blessed I am blessed in a manner that I could never have been blessed before it's not financial it's a spiritual blessing that my family into which grace broke in my parents were not believers when

01:28:10

I came to faith my grandparents were not believers grace broke into my family line and now my kids and my grandkids are hearing about Jesus am

01:28:21

I blessed you bet We have RJ in White Plains New York and he asks

01:28:32

I would like to hear your definition of what a Jew truly is in Romans chapter 2 28 -29 we read the

01:28:44

Apostle Paul's words for he is not a Jew which is one outwardly neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh but he is a

01:28:55

Jew which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart in the spirit and not in the letter whose praise is not of men but of God I would believe that those

01:29:09

Gentile Christians are truly Jews whereas those such as Woody Allen and Groucho Marx and we could go on and on and on with famous people who identify as Jews who don't even believe in the

01:29:27

Hebrew Scriptures or not even close to being Jews I think we're at cross purposes in terms of some of our definitions and we need to clarify again clarify our definition there is within Scripture an ethnic

01:29:47

Jewishness that is defined as a natural branch there are

01:29:53

Jewish people that are within that covenant under God but then within that people there is always a remnant by grace so all

01:30:07

I have to say there are subsets and subsets and subsets we have and the comment that I am more

01:30:14

Jewish I remember one guy talking to a Gentile believer talking to a

01:30:19

Jewish person and thinking he was clever and thinking he was you know trying to get the guy into a gospel conversation and he said you know

01:30:28

I'm more Jewish than you are and that's just stupid and it's not the way to win friends and influence people yes indeed

01:30:36

I am a son of Abraham by faith by the grace of God but I am still a stuck on branch I'm still the

01:30:42

Goyim that is the unnatural branch that has been brought in to the olive tree the remnant the

01:30:50

Jewish unbeliever is a Jewish unbeliever but there is also a remnant so in the scriptures

01:30:58

Paul uses at different times the term Jew and even in the gospel of John there are times whenever you know the

01:31:08

Jews opposed him the Jews opposed him well that could actually more accurately be translated the

01:31:14

Judeans the Judean Jews because the the first apostles the first believers were

01:31:21

Jewish so I think we need to just be a little careful when we're banding around the terms that we recognize that there is ethnic

01:31:30

Israel there is remnant Israel there are the ethnic natural branches and there are those who are stuck on that are

01:31:38

Gentile by birth but we are brought by grace through faith to be sons of Abraham by faith so I just think let's be a little careful at our terminology

01:31:52

Paul uses and the apostle uses and sometimes actually doesn't so clearly define his terms he even crosses over some of those terms at times and therefore it takes us to linguistically work out what do you actually mean here

01:32:09

Paul what about how would I guess this may be a question that only

01:32:16

God can answer since he's omnipotent but when it comes to a non -Christian individual who identifies as a

01:32:28

Jew perhaps he is even a rabbi where would he be in the scheme of things if he comes from a bloodline that could date back decades or centuries or even millennia that involved

01:32:49

Gentile conversion to Judaism I mean where would he be the unnatural branch or would he be part of the natural branch simple answer that I give to you is

01:33:04

I don't know and the truth be told in a sense it doesn't matter God knows

01:33:10

Hitler seemed to think he knew but ultimately we don't know what was

01:33:17

Hitler's answer to that I didn't even know he had all his scientific methods and doctor death methods to actually work out who was

01:33:27

Jewish and who wasn't but there were many Jewish believers and Christians and sons of Abraham by faith that went to the gas chambers with ethnic

01:33:38

Jewish people because of Hitler's determination but your point is a valid one

01:33:46

Chris I don't mean to make light of it but it's hard to be absolute because in a sense the records after the temple was destroyed all the records were destroyed and so to prove your

01:34:06

Jewish ancestry right back to those days is just virtually impossible but so there may be some gentile ethnicity in the mix so it's very very difficult but ultimately

01:34:23

I think I keep saying I go back to the scriptures and the scriptures we have an identification of natural branches and unnatural branches in fact there were proselytes even in the

01:34:35

Hebrew scriptures thousands of years ago absolutely yeah there were so where do you put them are they natural branches or unnatural branches at the end of the day it ultimately doesn't matter because ultimately what matters is that relationship through Christ with our creator that's what matters most of all

01:34:57

I think sometimes these little debates that we enter into I'm not demeaning them in any way

01:35:06

I'm not meaning in any way to demean any of those who are writing in with questions but sometimes it's a debate that you haven't got an answer for it's like the number of angels on a pinhead we don't have an answer an ultimate answer for that except to say that as you rightly said at the start of the question that God alone knows

01:35:26

God is sovereign and he alone knows but the point that I would like to make is that if the scriptures give us a distinction between natural and unnatural and if the scriptures give us a sense that the gentile church owes a debt to the

01:35:44

Jewish people under God for the bringing of the gospel through salvation is of the

01:35:51

Jews said Jesus himself so if under God God used this peculiar blessed ancient people to bring his saving message to all the world then we have a responsibility to bring the gospel back to those that first brought it to us and I think that trying to bring this full circle because I know we're beginning to run out of time but to bring it full circle one of the real complaints

01:36:17

I have with dual covenant theology is that it negates evangelism and it negates evangelism for those that peddle that but it also then negates evangelism for those that well

01:36:30

I don't want to have to do with John Hagee stuff I don't want to have to do with that kind of radical dispensationalism

01:36:35

I don't want anything to do with that dual covenant and I find that from my perspective

01:36:41

I find that sometimes my reformed brethren and I want to try and bring it really back full circle to thinking about my reformed brethren

01:36:47

I find my reformed brethren want to avoid the subject altogether and simply find the whole subject a little bit too messy and you know again move away from even considering that the ancient people have any future purpose at all and yet that was not the case from the reformers onwards from the reformers onwards there was an interest in the

01:37:12

Jewish people for their salvation however difficult it is to analyze who is a

01:37:17

Jewish person who is Jewish blah blah blah those are big big questions but nonetheless theologically and biblically the reformers onwards had an interest in Jewish mission and longed for Jewish redemption and that's really where I'm at today and I want my reformed brethren to regain that theological burden by the way just a side note since you brought up Hitler earlier people will tragically slander

01:37:53

Christians for being anti -semitic because of our earnest desire if we are acting according to the scriptures that is to evangelize the

01:38:06

Jewish people and to have them embrace Christ they think that that is anti -semitic and I might inform them if they were unaware of this that the

01:38:18

Nazis could care less if an ethnically Jewish person became a

01:38:23

Christian that person would still go to the death camp they were not interested in spiritual conversion at all no it was an ethnic cleansing right we have an anonymous listener who says

01:38:39

I have many friends in the messianic Jewish movement who I love dearly

01:38:44

I have visited their services I have cooperated with them in different events but one thing concerns me that seems to be prevalent among them not all of them but prevalent among them that is an exaltation of Jewish people as being innately superior in some way to the

01:39:06

Gentiles this seems to be going hand in hand with your topic today of dual covenantalism that sets apart the

01:39:16

Jews as somehow being more pleasing to God in an innate way in an intrinsic way rather than God seeing only value in those who have the imputed righteousness of Christ to them yeah

01:39:37

I think that there is a danger there but again I would endeavor to go to the scriptural record which does present to the

01:39:48

Jew first and also to the Greek. Now what does that mean? Does it mean they're better? No. Of course it doesn't.

01:39:54

Does it mean they're superior? No. But there is a principle there in Romans 1 that the gospel is to the

01:40:02

Jew first and also to the Greek. And then in Romans 2 you have the amazing statement, sometimes forgotten that there is also a priority of judgment.

01:40:13

That because of those who have been so blessed because of those to whom was granted the oracles of God because of those who have been graced with the

01:40:25

Shekinah glory and the covenants and the form of worship etc. The judgment is to the

01:40:33

Jew first and also to the Gentile And then just in case we've missed anyone out, when we come into Romans 3 we have the all have sinned and fallen short.

01:40:45

And so we have simply not that there's anything superior but there is a distinction and I think we live again in 21st century life with a desire to get rid of distinctions.

01:40:58

We want to get rid of racial distinctions. We want to get rid of this, that and the other things. So we're all, we want to get rid of sexual distinctions.

01:41:06

So we're all exactly the same but not so. God made us different. God made us with sexual distinctions.

01:41:13

God made us with racial distinctions. A blessing of racial distinctions and differences.

01:41:20

And I think that we've got to recognize that what we're not saying is that there is a superiority but rather there is a distinction and I think very clearly we have it particularly in Jew and Gentile.

01:41:37

As Romans 9, 10 and 11 point out and it's unavoidable there. So not superiority but yes to distinctions.

01:41:46

Well I just want to, I think that it's very important to clarify however in a day and age where the heresies of the woke movement and critical race theory who are exaggerating what you said to the extreme where they are even promoting blacks and whites having separate

01:42:09

Lord's Supper services and whites being viewed as innately racist, intrinsically racist and Mitch Tepper brought up earlier through a text that it is a tragic that Christians, perhaps specifically

01:42:33

Gentile Christians are viewed as innately anti -Semitic. So we do, don't you believe that we have to really pump the brakes when it comes to this aspect of distinctions because the walls of separation have fallen and we are one in Christ.

01:42:51

Yeah, and that's the beautiful thing of it that we are one in Christ and Jew and Gentile and every nation under heaven.

01:43:00

Every nation and again even that statement every tribe, tongue it points out a distinction, a glorious multinational distinction but beauty in the multinationality of it all and I think what we're seeing in the wokeness and all of this that's coming forth is that we want to get rid of all of these things and just make us all,

01:43:32

I don't know, all just rank liberals or something like that. We're all thinking exactly the same way.

01:43:37

No, God made us beautifully distinct but within the distinction under Christ bringing us all together has a glorious dare

01:43:48

I say it, rainbow beauty to it. I think that liberalism though however is not really what they're attempting to achieve.

01:43:57

It's left -wing totalitarianism which is different. Yes. Yes, yes indeed.

01:44:03

No, absolutely. I hear you. I do think that I'm just a little concerned that you're kind of bringing us back.

01:44:12

I just think that sometimes my reform brethren in all of the debate of this just tend to avoid the subject whereas the point that I regularly make is that we are, reform theology was at the forefront of Jewish mission from the get -go.

01:44:30

Even Luther, I'm tempted to say, even Luther he was at the forefront of Jewish mission. He wanted it first.

01:44:35

Now he fled and he went AWOL with regard to the whole 60 ,000 word vitriol.

01:44:44

And he wrote on the Jews in their lives. But from the very get -go of the Reformation there was an interest in the ancient people.

01:44:53

Now where did that come from? It came from a scriptural recognition that God is not finished with Israel.

01:44:58

And so you have reform theology repeatedly at the forefront of bringing the

01:45:04

Jewish people the gospel. And it was liberalism. It was only Catholicism really that was the replacement theology in its total state.

01:45:13

But it was liberalism that is kind of peddling the thing that we, you know there are two ways, there are a multitude of ways.

01:45:20

And I would simply say that reform theology, Biblical reform theology, has an interest in the ancient people, but it is a salvific interest through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

01:45:34

Yes, and Luther from what I understand of history became bitter and vengeful and hateful towards ethnically

01:45:46

Jewish people really because of his deep disappointment that they did not come in mass to Christ.

01:45:58

Yeah, I think that's part of the equation. I think there are a number of factors and bottom line is we really don't know what went through Luther's mind when he wrote the 60 ,000 word vitriol.

01:46:11

I did learn that six months prior to his writing that, that he lost his beloved daughter.

01:46:19

Now the point that I would simply make is no theologian should write theology six months after you've had a family bereavement.

01:46:27

I think that, you know, I think Luther was angry and angry at God, I might even say, and because he was meeting with a brick wall with the

01:46:37

Jewish people he wrote that anger out. And then Hitler used it.

01:46:42

So all I have to say there were circumstances that were in the context of Luther's writing.

01:46:51

That doesn't exonerate him at all, not at all. But it gives a little context to what he was writing.

01:46:58

I simply try to make the positive point that, well, at the very least he was thinking about Jewish mission initially and then take it on with Calvin, and Calvin's successors were praying for Jewish mission every

01:47:09

Lord's Day. Take it into Holland and you have Wilhelmus of Brockwood writing on the redemption of the Jewish people in the late 1600s and so you've got

01:47:17

Reformed theology, and then you've got the 1640s, the Westminster Divines praying for Jewish mission. You've got the 1700s,

01:47:24

Charles Simeon, 1800s, you've got the Great Awakening. I could take you through the history and see that at the forefront of all of these

01:47:32

Reformed scholars and theologians and preachers, they were praying for intentional

01:47:37

Jewish evangelism. And that's where we need to get back front and center, and that's why

01:47:43

I'm tempted to say we get John Hagee too much of a mention today. I would love us to get to Reformed theology on the whole subject of Israel, not dual covenant theology, but the new covenant to bring it to the ancient people, and that is my life burden, and will be so, and I'm thankful for the opportunity that you give me from time to time to come on and pour out my heart.

01:48:10

Amen, I always love having you. And by the way, I need to backtrack a little bit on something I said. I think that Luther was fomenting not against the

01:48:19

Jewish people for anything ethnic in them, he was fomenting about them religiously, that they did not come to Christ in mass.

01:48:28

It had nothing to do with that. That's a very important point. That's true,

01:48:33

Chris. We have to go to our final break, and if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

01:48:41

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Patafuco demonstrating the reliability of Scripture. To advance the cause of the

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Gospel they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

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King James Bible. This 17th century hand engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

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This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

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Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

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Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

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You can have your own copy of this 44 page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

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Visit historicalbiblesociety .org That's historicalbiblesociety .org

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It supports missionaries in over 13 countries around the world Anchored in Truth is in partnership with 36 church plants as well as radio stations, theological seminaries and various programs for unreached people from so many different contexts

01:58:16

RG. Welcome back Stephen Atkinson please give us about a minute of summary of what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today

01:58:27

I knew our time was really short but I appreciate you giving me the opportunity. I want us to think instead of dual covenant theology think of dual task theology.

01:58:37

And so let me give you one quote from a former CEO of our ministry back in the

01:58:43

UK in the 1930s, 1940s I'll give you this one quote and then

01:58:48

I'm done and I really want to think of two tasks that are committed to us so this quote is

01:58:55

Frank Exley General Secretary of CWI and he said, with hearts aflame, with love for Israel and longing that those into whose midst

01:59:02

Christ was born should come to know him as their savior the founders of our society felt that a two -fold task was committed to them the first and greatest concern was to present

01:59:14

Christ to the Jewish people that they might feel his infinite attraction. The second was to awaken the conscience of the

01:59:22

Christian church to the long neglected duty of Israel's evangelization. Dual task theology.

01:59:29

Think on that bring the gospel to the Jewish people and awaken the church to Jewish mission.

01:59:35

Amen and if you want more information on Christian witness to Israel, North America, go to CWINA .org

01:59:44

CWINA .org Thank you so much Stephen for being an excellent guest. Amen I want to thank everybody for listening today