August 5, 2021 Show with Stephen Atkinson on “The Heresies of John Hagee & Dual Covenant Theology”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Thursday on this fifth day of

August 2021.

And I'm thrilled to have back on the program after a long absence, my dear friend Stephen

Atkinson, who is director of ministry for Christian Witness to Israel, North America,

also known as CWI North America.

And today we are going to be addressing exposing the heresies of John Hagee and dual

covenant theology.

Do Jews and Gentiles have separate ways to heaven?

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Stephen Atkinson.

Thank you, Chris.

Good to be back with you all.

I think it's been about 15 months.

I think the last time I did a quick check of my notes and discovered that actually you had myself and

my colleague, Mitch Tepper on a little bit after the COVID lockdown.

And how all of that was a sticker.

Mitch was, and as he

put it, the paranoia.

But I'm glad he said that rather than me.

But yeah, it's been about 15 months.

So yeah, I'm very happy to be back with you again.

Indeed, I hope to not only address it, but lead us into greener pastures.

I think I said with you, I

don't want to, I

would lead into the truth.

And particularly when it comes to the whole, yeah,

in a nutshell, very glad

to be able

to land of Israel and some theologians that are peddling a different way

for heaven.

Well, tell us about, since it's been a while since you've been on, tell us about Christian

Witness to Israel, North America, also known as CWI North America.

Well, we've, we have been in existence, at least not personally, but obviously our

ministry goes right back to the 1840s.

We began in London.

I

really,

and our

biblical

mandate must issue

intentionality and activity.

And I think that's really where we, we part

ways

with this question that we need to raise.

And so all that to say, we started in 1842 out of a field that we've

been in existence almost 180 years,

actually 80 years over here in 2012.

As you tell, my accent is changing.

And as of about nearly two years ago, I became an American citizen.

So I can speak to my fellow Americans.

Yeah, I moved over here from Northern Ireland and had been,

then was moved over here for the purpose of developing things on these shores.

And I think CWI,

but also just the importance of the children.

So we

look both

intentionally

to bring the gospel through

frontline

mission work and also through volunteers and also through just, just

show we are a

gospel to bring the Messiah.

It is our joy and delight to do that.

And it is also a challenge to us.

A, a kind of a, instead of replace,

replacement theology, I think sometimes there is a, I would like

to see embracement, to use

that phrase, because I

think we should, and with Israel,

rather an embracement with the love of Israel's God in Israel.

We're

doing.

And also, well, I know that some very

key historical figures were played very critical

roles in Christian witness to Israel, including Charles Haddon Spurgeon and

Robert Murray McShane.

Am I right?

Indeed.

Yes.

Spurgeon on no less than four.

He was a good friend of the ministry, obviously in London.

Then going back a little bit further from Spurgeon to, as I said, the Scottish

president, there

was again in bringing the gospel back to the Jewish

people.

And again, I would suggest that that even goes further back

than just 1600, 1600, the

only theology driving

missiology first ever meeting

in November, 1842.

And it was just

lovely to consider themselves great

figureheads, except that they

mission.

And indeed, of course, the

imperative you want to

put it in those terms, but yes,

the scripture that will drive us, not just, not just a good memory, not just a good.

By the way, I was just notified by your colleague, Mitch Tepper, who is listening right

now to our interview.

Okay.

I need to be very careful then.

I'll have to think about him.

Okay.

I think you get, I think you need to be a lot more worried about Mitch when he's on the show.

Oh, I'm glad you said that.

I'm far, I'm way down in Arkansas.

He's right.

I just even to mention that Mitch is there.

We do.

He's on a street corner in squirrel.

You need to get Mitch back on the program and hear some of the stories of, of the encounters that he's been having.

And I'm sure I will.

And I'm, I am planning on repeating this website, but for anyone who wants

to do further investigation of a Christian witness to Israel,

North America, go to CWINA .org.

That's CWI for Christian witness to Israel.

NA for North America .org.

CWINA .org.

Well, one of the reasons.

And I would just maybe, I just add to that very simply that we have updated that website within the past.

This is on there.

Both a new

core have

20 sermons lectures on there.

Sources are available.

I just add a little bit national ministry has changed its name.

So we are, is now

known as the international

mission to name

here.

I'm tempted to say it's taken me 10 years to build up a brand recognition.

So we're, we're, we're still keeping the name here.

The international mission to Jewish people.

That's pretty true.

That's the same.

It's the same one.

Well, one of the reasons that I wanted to bring up the name of

John Hagee and dual covenant theology today, I know that we've addressed it

as part as a part of interviews we've conducted, but I don't know if we've

ever conducted an entire show on this, but one of the reasons that I wanted to do that is

because of one of my favorite political commentators, Mark Levin,

who has a program on Fox news television.

One of my favorite hosts on Fox news, because I'm having a lot of

problem lately, a lot of problems, I should say lately with Fox news.

The leftward leaning in many cases of different hosts and guests that they have

prominently on that network pro abortionists and so on.

But Mark Levin next to Tucker Carlson is I believe my favorite

host on that station.

And I was dismayed not long ago to see that Mark

Levin has developed a friendship with John Hagee.

And Mark Levin is a Jewish individual who does not believe that Christ

is his Lord, God, Messiah and King.

And therefore, the influence of someone like John Hagee is disastrous, in

my opinion.

Why don't you let our listeners know exactly, and I know that you don't want to dwell on that.

I'm happy, I'm sorry, I'm happy to speak to that.

But I think, you know, John Hagee, like many major figures,

slippery figures, in the sense that it's hard sometimes to tie them down,

close the days

or whatever works.

I think in this, you know, you can go online and you can find quotes from John Hagee.

I just recently did that.

And, you know, any of your listeners can just go online and find, you know, 10.

The truth is, the

position,

the classic

position is

covenant with God in the Houston

Chronicle.

And so, you know, again, you can

just see, I think what I, I remember one time hearing people

talk about, you know, the Hagee heresy and things like this.

And I said, okay, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna check this site and I'll get their magazine.

And so I picked up their magazine.

I'm not, of course, you can go either get the magazine fee

.org.

You can see what

it stands for.

You can see what its belief is.

You can see what it's in line at the moment.

Just look.

But I remember

reading their

32 -page full -color magazine because

I might be biased.

I might be unfair.

Well, I

read

the magazine

and

in

all 32 pages

away

from

that

just

magazine,

when I

read that magazine,

the

Harry

Potter

thing, you know,

the alien

American

be remedied.

And so, you know, for you and I to have this conversation, this is helpful in the sense

that

intentionally,

yes, is not worthy of the name Christian.

And, you know,

that's, that's where you

look up in this

ministry.

Amen to everything that you just said.

I stunned you into silence there.

Well, tell us in summary what dual covenant

theology is and how on earth can someone

professing to be a Christian believe that there is anyone on earth

that does not need to believe in the true Jesus

Christ of Scripture and embrace Jesus Christ and his substitutionary death

on Calvary's cross and his bodily resurrection?

How anyone could be saved can enter into heaven into God's presence for

eternity without believing and trusting solely in that?

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, I

honestly, anybody can believe

in any other way.

There is no other Savior.

There is no other substitute.

There is no other atonement.

And yet, the

proponents

of dual covenant

theology will and do

not need to come to

me.

That is just, again, many scriptures, not

least the Book of Luke saying that we would

do well

to be a lawyer.

Uh, he was Jewish Pharisee.

He was a Hebrew of Hebrews.

He knew his stuff far better than this.

And yet, if anyone would fight the corner,

it would be he went to every

place and to tell them of a new

covenant, our promise.

Um, and

I

think,

again,

anybody

can

share

the gospel with them

so

that they will share eternity with you.

And I, again, the kind of stand with Israel mentality,

eternity thing, and

so this is why we, in

our ministry, not only

want to

exceed

this

gospel.

In fact, yeah, we'll pick up right where you left off there.

We have to go to our first break.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, we're Stephen Atkinson of Christian

Witness to Israel, also known as CWI North America.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

As always, give us your first name, at least your city and state of residence

and your country of residence.

If you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous.

If your question involves a personal and private matter, let's say you are a Jewish

individual who is starting to have questions about

Christianity.

You're starting to think that there may be some

truth behind the claims of born -again Christians that you know or that you've heard on

television or radio or that you've read in books, or perhaps

you have folks in your family who have become Christian and they have

neighbors and so on.

Well, I could readily understand you would want to remain anonymous if that be the case,

or perhaps you are someone that is vehemently opposed to what

my guest is saying.

Perhaps you're a big fan and supporter of John Hagee.

Well, if you want to remain anonymous, that would be fine, but if it's just a

general question on dual covenant theology and any question involving

evangelism to the Jewish people, please give us at least your first name, your

city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

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Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Our guest today for the entirety of the program is Stephen Atkinson, Director of Ministry for Christian Witness

to Israel, North America, also known as CWI.

If you have a question for Stephen Atkinson on evangelizing the Jewish people,

on the heresies of John Hagee and dual covenant theology, or anything regarding the

scriptures, our email address is ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N

-Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence.

Your colleague, Mitch Tepper in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, has a question that I think is a good

question to ask right now in the beginning, or fairly

in the beginning of the program here.

Do you know the origins of dual covenant theology?

Do they predate John Hagee?

I would reckon they probably do.

Definitely the Pharisees that called upon the execution of Christ believed it.

Yeah, yeah, I'm tempted to throw the question back at

him.

He said he can't look it up because he's riding his bicycle right now.

There you go.

He's listening on headphones while riding his bicycle.

Yeah, you know, I think of any heresy,

the origins are either

theology.

Why is the church

kind of theology, even with, oh, you

know, that CUFI, oh, we love that organization.

That stands for Israel, doesn't it?

And again, I'm just, that a thinking or maybe a non

-thinking, I

honestly

can't,

even

in the apostles' time, you know, when we

were thinking, I wonder was, you know, did the apostle

Paul in his day,

you don't need

that Jewish, there's

a dual

for the synagogues,

but why

didn't he leave Europe alone?

Why didn't, why

is

there

heaven

given

among

men whereby we

must

be saved?

And the apostle wanted to tell the Messiah of

Israel, yeah, that heresy has

probably been around.

They take on various

guides, which I can't

fully answer because I'm not

writing,

you that wanted the subject.

So, okay, brother, I think I already satisfactorily

answered it.

I said, I believe that that's what the Pharisees believed.

You don't need Jesus.

You need to be an observant Jew who is

dedicating his life to observing the law.

I mean, that's what they believed.

So what's the difference?

And the thing that's a real mind -blowing,

self -destructing concept about this whole idea

of a Christian teaching this is that if anybody could

satisfy God by observing the law, Jesus Christ would not need to have

come in the flesh and die a gruesome death on Calvary's cross

and have the wrath of his father poured upon him.

Why on earth was that even necessary if people could observe the

law?

In fact, was not Jesus' original audience nearly

entirely Jewish?

Yes, yes.

But then again, you know that of the 1900s, early

20th century, you

know, his death was

not atonement and those kinds of heresies that

all you need to do is to be sincere.

So all these nice Jewish,

sorry, no,

it doesn't.

It never did.

Adam might have been sincere.

Another's righteousness.

We need a righteousness that is not our own, but right.

And this is what we must declare to our Jewish friends.

And please, God, if any Jewish person is listening in, we would love to share this.

And it speaks of a righteousness that is not according.

And I think it's an ignorance

of theology in

general, where

you

allow the, you

know, and again, I've said

it in the past, but one is

that I want you to

not believe all the

Gentile world.

I'm passionate to repay the debt, annoyed

and with Israel.

We want to

bless to hear

the message of their Messiah.

And I

think

Mitch has

heard me

tell this story before, but a few months ago in Florida.

And as you know, you will, you know, Mitch has had you pray for his dad.

His dad is a Jew.

When you die, you die.

And I remember just again, a few months ago, I wrote together

Mitch and his dad and myself and his dad wanted to pay.

And I simply said, no, no, Mr. Tepper, I'm paying.

And he said, no, I want to pay.

And I said, no, to your Jewish Messiah, who

you don't believe in is my

life, my grandchildren of whom I now have 12.

And I have little ones that

are in my home that

are hearing this

for what they have brought.

And I want to repay that debt.

And so I just think that we are

repaying the debt so -called

instead, we should bring forth the

glorious gospel of the new covenant, according to Jeremiah 31.

And according to all of the New Testament scriptures.

By the way, we have John in Bangor, Maine, who says from his

understanding of the beliefs and the heresies of a dual covenant

prior to John Hagee, he says he believes it finds its roots

with the very well -known Jewish philosopher.

Yes, there you go.

And also that it was revived in the 20th

century by Franz Rosenzweig.

Take a look on the website.

But yes, thank you, brother.

Up in Maine, in Bangor, Maine.

In fact, my hometown, because that's my hometown back in Northern Ireland.

I come from Bangor, Northern Ireland.

Oh, wow.

That somehow slipped my mind.

So when I hear of Bangor, Maine, that brings back home memories, but I have not yet got up to

Bangor, Maine, and maybe I should someday.

Do you like bangers and mash?

Oh, definitely, definitely.

But definitely have to be Irish bangers, not the imitations that you have here.

Yeah, I probably had imitation at a local British pub right

here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Oh, well, thank you, John, for that clarification.

Thank you.

The idea it's the when you any cursory

knowledge of the New Testament would make such an idea preposterous, even when you think about

how the Apostle Paul did not view the Judaizers as just

another branch of Christianity that had a gospel that was

acceptable.

They added one thing.

They added one thing, and that was to circumcise it.

Circumcision was actually necessary in the minds of the Judaizers for people to

be truly Christian and to be saved.

Now, we're supposed to believe, according to John Hagee, that subtracting one thing and

a very, very important thing, the very Messiah of the

world, the very Son of God, the only begotten Son of

God, who died on Calvary to propitiate the

sins of his people, turn away the wrath of God

for his people or from his people in order that they may be saved, and the

great exchange that takes place where our sin

is imputed to Christ on the cross and his righteousness is imputed to us, that minor detail or those

minor details can be subtracted from the gospel.

And in John Hagee's mind, that's fine and dandy with him.

Yeah, but Chris, can I ask you, and maybe can I ask

other organizations

even, or even other historical

organizations

in the U .S.,

why are we

duped with

that?

Well, it could be a multitude of different reasons.

Not everybody is duped by anything for the same reason.

Not everybody believes a falsehood for the same reason.

But I think that for many people, this concept

is a sigh of relief that they do not have to hurt the feelings

of their Jewish loved ones, their Jewish neighbors, their Jewish family members by telling

them, sorry, but you cannot enter into heaven without putting your total trust

in the death, burial, and resurrection of the God -man Jesus, Yeshua HaMashiach.

I think that people love the idea

that merely to join with Jews who are

Zionists, because obviously not everybody who identifies as a Jew is a Zionist.

There are liberal Jews in the United States who are anti -Zionists.

They actually support the Palestinian people, which is actually a modern invention.

Now, I think that it is wrong also, and I know that some listeners

perhaps will be offended by this and upset with me, but I don't think it's correct to be in lockstep

with the government, the atheistic government of Israel either.

But having said that, I think a lot of people just love this idea that they do not have to

worry about losing friendships, losing relationships by telling

Jewish people who they claim to love or care about or who somehow they benefit from

a good relationship with them.

They don't want to hurt their feelings.

They don't want to be cut off from them.

So this is a way.

That's just a guess.

And of course, I can't speak, as I already said, this is not meant to be a broad -brushing answer.

No, I think actually you've hit the nail on the head very much there.

I think it's kind of the wishy -washy, weak -willed

evangelicalism of we don't want to offend.

Anyone anymore.

Say anything that will another person, oh, you have offended me.

It seems the greatest way we might offend

someone else is we

must not commandment.

And I think your kindliness

among Christians, I don't

want to my Jewish neighbors, but I'm sorry if someone's in a burning

building, you have to

maybe need to yell at them or

kindliness sake to leave that.

Oh, well, I better not.

I better not be offensive.

And, you know,

I'm Scots

-Irish, be

kind to everyone.

We need a little bit of tough love.

And I'm, you know, I'm not a grandfather of

12.

As of just a few weeks ago, we learned that number 12 is in the womb.

In fact, in fact, in fact, we got to go to our midway break, folks.

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Thank you.

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Before we return to our guest Stephen J. Atkinson and more of our conversation,

we have some very important matters to inform you of during

this break.

First of all, thank all of you.

I thank all of you from the depths of my heart for your prayers for my oldest brother, John,

who is in a skilled nursing facility in Denton, Texas.

He has cancer and critical stage emphysema and was given a grim prognosis of six months to

live by his doctor, and I thank God that he is making very promising

and encouraging statements about his faith in Christ.

Please pray that he is not only physically healed, but that his

faith becomes even more vividly clear that he is trusting solely on Christ and his finished work on

the cross.

For his entrance into heaven, please pray for that, and

pray that all doubt is removed from my mind and heart regarding

where my brother is headed as he may be approaching death if the Lord does not

spare him and extend his life on earth.

Thank you, all of you who have been praying and have been asking me for updates.

Also, folks, if you are a man in ministry leadership, whether you are a pastor,

an elder, a deacon, a leader in a parachurch ministry, I ask of you, please,

to send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com and say, I want to

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Send that email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

I am having as my next Iron Trip Enzyme Radio Luncheon speaker, Dr. Conrad

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alive on the planet earth.

In fact, I think he is the most powerful preacher alive on the planet earth, and I'm not exaggerating.

That's Monday, September 27th from 11am to 2pm.

Monday, September 27th from 11am to 2pm in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

Absolutely free of charge.

You're going to be fed physically for free.

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So please remember, this is a men's only luncheon, so if you're a man in ministry leadership, send me an email to chrisarnsen at

gmail .com.

But pastor's luncheon in the subject line, I look forward to seeing you, God willing, on Monday, September 27th,

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That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Stephen Atkinson

about exposing the heresies of John Hagee and dual covenant theology.

Do Jews and Gentiles have separate ways to heaven?

Chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

And right before the break, Stephen, you were talking about parents

who love their children, do not allow their children to risk their lives just to spare their

feelings was basically a summary of what you were saying.

And if you want to pick up where you left off.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And, you know, I

think why

are so

many,

you're right.

They

point to dangliness

easier for it

might be offense

from high school

that, you know, for the past 30 or 40 years, they promised, you know, we're not talking about politics or religion.

We've been friends for 30, 40 years, blah, blah, blah.

But we said to each other that we would never talk about politics and religion.

My answer to that come across, I simply say, well, okay, forget the

politics, but you got to talk about Jesus.

And, and this, because basically they talked to us about Jesus.

They brought the message to us.

Christianity is Jewish.

And it's, and I think we, our kids

are in danger.

We, we guard them away from the danger or we guide them a

pleasantness and peace way.

We need to, will that be an offensive for, we

nonetheless need to show tough love to our Jewish friends

for real.

This, this is the one ultimate reality that we want to bring to you.

Um, and, and accept manner, but

you know, the John Hagee magazine that had 32

pages and completely

avoided the

sensitivity.

Well, then it's insensitivity, but we need to mention his name.

And we live just in, in a very, we live in a very,

it's the greatest sin that I was.

And we also live, I think with a couple of other realities that we must bring into the argument as well.

We live in a, a council culture reality, and we live in a revisionist

reality.

Uh, and I think

pertaining to theology of Israel has been,

uh, to say, what would, what

would 1600s, how

would he address

million America?

We're living

in needful.

We have a faithful and generous supporter of iron sharpens iron radio,

who submitted a question, Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

And, uh, I'm just enlarging the font of Grady's question because it's microscopic.

Uh, he says, greetings brothers.

I don't know about the rest of the country, but in the South, there were very few people of Jewish

ethnicity.

We were taught in church that they are God's special people.

And I don't ever remember it being mentioned that their salvation came in the same way

as all people through the Lord Jesus Christ.

The one Jewish person I know once told, well, I want, let me correct that.

The one Jewish person I knew, I guess he means while growing up, once told me that

he was a Jew and was blessed by God.

I think this is why a lot of Americans believe that Israel is special.

Also a pretty pre -tribulation theology that makes Israel seem special

because of their beliefs that they had, that they had to become a nation.

Do you have any comments on Grady's comments?

Um, I, I think I would, I would simply say yes

to try to keep things, uh, not in terms of,

let's say modern, uh,

saying.

And so I, I look upon, for example, Romans, I see, um,

natural branches and unnatural branches.

So there is a distinction, uh, there, there is a, even in a sense, a priority.

Romans 1 16, to

the Jews, that email

is, there

is no back.

Do you think that leaving them alone?

There may be a love

reason for that.

Look upon this beloved people.

One of the other reasons when you asked me, uh, why I think, uh, so many Americans

are substituting Zionism, uh, those, uh,

let me backtrack Americans who profess to be Christian are substituting Zionism for

evangelizing the Jews.

I think it is a misunderstanding of some often repeated

words in Genesis chapter 12, one through three, uh, where,

uh, God is saying, uh, to the patriarch Abraham, the father of the Jewish,

uh, people that I will bless those who bless you and him who dishonors you, I will

curse.

And people attribute that to Christians in the 21st century must always

support Israel as a nation in order to fulfill that command,

uh, or that, uh, that, uh, that statement by God to Abraham.

But Chris, I must ask you the question.

What is the greatest blessing?

Being saved by the Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen.

And is that not the answer to Genesis 12?

Amen.

What is the greatest in our U

S

even

jump?

I might even add,

and in

fact, if I'm

send your,

your,

your money in the

sense to me, and when we just get to the root of it, Genesis 12, three does apply,

but it applies in the right way.

It applies.

What does that mean?

Doesn't mean where, you know, you'll, you'll get loads of money and your business will prosper.

It means you will

be blessed, but

I'm yet

at the same when I

committed Jewish mission in 2004

and 18 years of

ministry with CWI, who are my two sons

have not finished.

One has finished a P and the other is finishing off a P

and my little grant,

not financial.

It's a spiritual blessing that my family, uh, into which grace broke in.

I, my parents were not believers when I came to say my grandparents were not.

And now my kids and my grandkids, am I blessed?

We have, uh, RJ in white Plains, New York,

and he asks, I would like to hear your definition of what a

drew a Jew truly is in Romans chapter two, 28 through 29.

We read the apostle Paul's words for, he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly.

Neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart in the spirit

and not, uh, not in the letter whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I would believe that those Gentile Christians are truly Jews.

Whereas those such as Woody Allen and Groucho Marx,

and we could go on and on and on with famous people who identify as Jews

who don't even believe in the Hebrew scriptures are not even close to being Jews.

I think we're, you were at cross purposes in terms of some of our definitions, and we need to

clarify again that there is within scripture,

um, defined as

a, uh,

under God, but then on the comment,

uh, you know, that I am

more Jewish.

I remember talking to a Jew who

was clever and trying to get the guy into a gospel conversation.

He said, you know, I'm more Jewish than you are.

And that's just, that's just stupid.

And it's, and it's, and it's not the way to win friends and influence people.

Yes, indeed.

I am a son of Abraham by faith, by the grace of God, but I am still a stuck on branch.

I'm still the Goyim that is the unnatural branch that has been brought in,

but there is also a remnant.

So times that,

and even, uh, in the gospel of John, there are times whenever, you know, the Jews oppose

them to be translated.

They, they,

the first recognize that there is ethnic

Israel, natural branches, and there are those

compiled by birth, but we are brought by grace, uh,

the sons of Abraham.

Just let, let's be a little careful.

Sometimes actually even, uh,

what do you

actually mean?

What about where, what, how would, I guess this may be a question that only God can answer since

he's omnipotent, but when it comes to

a non -Christian individual who identifies as a Jew,

perhaps, perhaps he is even a rabbi, uh, where would he

be in the scheme of things?

If he comes from a bloodline that could date back decades or

centuries, or even millennia that involved, uh, uh, Gentile

conversion to Judaism, I mean, where would he, would he, would he be the

unnatural branch or would he be the part of the natural branch?

Um, a simple answer that I give to you, Hitler

seemed to think he knew.

How did, what was Hitler's answer to that?

I didn't even know he knew.

Well, well, he, he, he had all his, uh, his, uh, scientific methods and Dr.

who wasn't, um, but there were many, there were many Jewish believers,

sons of Abraham by faith that went to the gas chamber.

I

don't

mean to

mean to

make light

of it, but in

the mix and unnatural branches.

In fact, there were proselytes, even in the Hebrew scriptures, thousands.

There were absolutely.

Yeah, there were.

Um, so we, you know, where do you put them?

Are they, are they natural branches or unnatural branches at the end of the day?

Little debates that we enter into.

Um, I'm not, I'm not demeaning them in any way.

I don't know a debate

that you can't, you haven't got an answer for.

It's like, you know, the number of angels on a pinhead.

We don't have an answer to my answer for that, except to say that, as you rightly said,

at the start of God alone knows God is sovereign and he alone knows.

But the point that I would like to

go, and this, the scriptures give us a sense that the Gentile church

is of the

Jews that you,

all the world, uh, we have a responsibility to bring the gospel back to

those that's again, trying

to bring with

John

Agee stuff.

I don't want to have to do with times

my reformed brethren.

And I want to try and bring it really.

But I find my reformed brethren want to avoid the subject altogether.

They find the whole subject a little bit too messy.

And, um, you know, again, move away from even considering that the ancient people have

any and yet that was not the case from the reformers onwards, from the

reformers onwards.

I'm at, by the

way, just a side note, since you brought up Hitler earlier, people

will tragically, uh, slander Christians for being

antisemitic, uh, because of our earnest

desire, if we're acting according to the scriptures, that is to evangelize

the Jewish people and to have them embrace Christ.

They think that that is antisemitic.

And I might, uh, inform them if they were unaware of this, that the Nazis could care

less.

If an ethnically Jewish person became a Christian, that's person would still go to the death camp.

They were not interested in spiritual conversion at all.

No, it was an ethnic cleansing.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah.

We have an anonymous listener who says, I have many friends in

the Messianic Jewish movement who I love dearly.

I have visited their services.

I have cooperated with them in different events.

But one thing concerns me that seems to be prevalent among them, not all of them, but

prevalent among them.

That is an exaltation of Jewish people as being innately superior

in some way, uh, to the Gentiles.

This seems to be going hand in hand with your topic today of dual covenantalism

that sets apart the Jews as somehow being more pleasing to God in an

innate way and an intrinsic way rather than God seeing

only value in those who have the imputed righteousness of Christ

to them.

Yeah, I think that there is a danger there.

But again, I would endeavor, which

does present to the Greek.

Now, what does it mean they're superior?

No, that the

gospel, the Greek, and then in Romans two, you have

the amazing statement, sometimes forgotten

with the

judgment.

And then just in case we've missed anyone out when we come into Romans three, and we have

the all, not that

there's anything superior life,

we want to get rid of this, that,

and we're all exactly as God

made us with a racial distinction.

And I think that we've got to recognize that I'm

what we're

not saying a

point.

Well, I just want to, I think that it's very important to

clarify, however, in a day and age where the heresies of the woke

movement and critical race theory, who are exaggerating what you said to the

extreme, where they are even promoting blacks and whites having separate

Lord's Supper services, and whites being viewed as

innately racist, intrinsically racist.

And Mitch Tipper brought up earlier, through a text, that

it is a tragic that Christians, perhaps specifically Gentile

Christians, are viewed as innately antisemitic.

So we do, don't you believe that we have to really pump the brakes when it comes to this

aspect of distinctions, because the walls of separation have fallen, and we are one in Christ.

And that's the beautiful thing of it, that

every nation, and again, even that statement,

every tribe,

tongue,

multinational, and I think I

think

that liberalism,

though,

however, is not really what they're.

Attempting to achieve.

It's left -wing totalitarianism, which is different.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, indeed.

No, absolutely.

I hear you.

Yeah.

I do think that I'm just a little

concerned

that at times my

reformed theology was at the

forefront

of Jewish mission.

He wanted it first.

The very

get -go of the Reformation,

where did that come from?

Recognition that God is not finished with Israel.

And so you have reformed theology repeatedly, bringing the

Jewish people

together.

Reformed

theology, biblical reform, in the ancient people.

Yes, and Luther,

from what I understand of history,.

Became bitter and vengeful and hateful towards

ethnically Jewish people, really because of his

deep disappointment that they did not come in mass to Christ.

Yeah, I think that's part of the equation.

I think there are a number of factors, and

bottom

line is we

really, when he

wrote the, I

think

Luther was meeting with a brick

wall.

Right.

And then Hitler, and then

Hitler at all, not at all, but gives a little

writing.

I simply try to take it on with

Calvin, and Calvin's successors were praying for Jewish mission every Lord's Day.

Take it into Holland, and you have 1600s.

And so you go to the 1640s, the Westminster Divines,

praying 1600s,

that is

my life

that

you give me

from time to

time

to come on.

Amen.

I always love having you.

And by the way, I need to backtrack a little bit on something I said.

I think that Luther was fomenting not against the Jewish people for anything ethnic in them.

He was fomenting about them religiously, that they did not come to Christ in mass.

It had nothing to do with the rest.

No, that's a very important point.

You make that point.

We have to go to our final break.

And if you'd like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at

gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

We'll be right back.

Hi,

I'm Phil Johnson, host and executive director of Grace to You,.

The media ministry of John MacArthur.

I hope you plan to join me and Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio for the G3

Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, Thursday, September 30th through Saturday, October 2nd.

The theme this year is Christ is supreme over all.

My friend Chris Arnzen and I will be joined by several of our other friends, including Votie Balcombe, Justin

Peters, Darrell Bernard Harrison, Virgil Walker, and James White.

More than 20 other speakers will be joining us, and the lineup this year includes my pastor, John MacArthur.

For details, visit g3conference .com.

That's g3conference .com.

Chris Arnzen and I hope to see you September 30th through October 2nd at G3

2021.

This is Phil.

Johnson reminding you that Christ is supreme over all.

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Chris Arnzen, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, announcing a new website.

With an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a Christian perspective.

Try World Now at no charge for 90 days by going to getworldnow

.com.

That's getworldnow .com.

I rely on World because I trust the reporting, I gain insight from the analysis, and World provides clarity to

the news stories that really matter.

I believe you'll also find World to be an invaluable resource to better understand critical topics with a

depth that's simply not found in other media outlets.

Armed with this coverage, World can help you to be a voice of wisdom in your family and your community.

This trial includes bi -weekly issues of World Magazine, on -scene reporting from World Radio, and the fully

shareable content of World Digital.

There's no obligation and no credit card required.

Visit getworldnow .com today.

Also check out World News Group's podcast, The World and Everything in It, at

wng .org forward slash podcast.

That's W for world, N for news, G for group .org forward

slash podcast.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said,.

Give yourself unto reading.

The man who never reads will never be read.

He who never quotes will never be quoted.

He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the Prince of Preachers to heart.

The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and

future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting

books for all ages.

We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com.

That's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past

to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is

by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Arnton is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society.

Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God.

They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare

collection of biblical texts, along with a fascinating presentation by Mr. Patafuco,

demonstrating the reliability of scripture.

To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful perfect facsimile of the

genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition

1611 King James Bible.

This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ

going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the Tower of

Babel, and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his

claims to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums, and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public

in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35

or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org.

That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

We are excited to announce another new member of the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio advertising family,

Banu Gadi, owner of three New York pharmacies, Lee's Drugs of Floral Park, Long

Beach Chemists, and Prescription Center of Long Island in Hempstead.

Banu Gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus

pandemic.

Please contact Dr. Gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the

contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media.

To find the pharmacy nearest you, call 516 -354 -2000.

That's 516 -354 -2000.

Or order online at leesdrugsrx .com.

That's L -E -E -S -drugsrx .com.

Don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program.

Anchored in Truth Ministries is the mission arm of Grace Life Church of the Shoals.

Based in Alabama, it supports missionaries in over 13 countries around the world.

Anchored in Truth is in partnership with 36 church plants, as well as radio stations,

theological seminaries, and various programs for unreached people groups.

With an aim to glorify God and reach the nations with the gospel, it is a blessing to see

how God has used Anchored in Truth in so many different contexts globally as well as

locally.

To find out more about this vital work worldwide, visit anchoredintruth .org.

Welcome back.

Stephen Atkinson, please give us about a minute of summary of what you most want.

Etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

I knew our time was really short.

I wronged us to think instead of

dual

come to

know

him

as their

Savior.

And if you

want more

information.

On Christian witness to Israel, North America, go to CWINA .org.

CWINA .org.

Thank you so much, Stephen, for being an excellent guest.

I want to thank everybody for listening today.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a

sinner.