How to Do Family Worship When You Don't Have it All Together

Today, I'm joined by the beautiful, the one, the only, Jennifer Foskey, my wife, and we're going to be talking about family worship. That's the subject of today on Conversations with a Calvinist, which begins right now.

Family Worship as an Imperfect but Normal Part of Home Life

Welcome back to Conversations with a Calvinist. My name is Keith Foskey, and I am a Calvinist, and as I said in the intro, I am joined today by the ever-wonderful, beautiful, my wife, Jennifer Foskey.

Jennifer, how are you today? I am excited to be here. I'm doing well, thank you. All right. There are three people in the room, so why don't you introduce the third? This is Theodore.

All right. Theodore. Currently 27 weeks pregnant now, so he'll be with us probably mid-September.

All right. Lord willing, he will go all the way and make it to full term. This is number, I don't know, I lost count. This is number six for us. This is child number six. All right. And what we're going to be talking about today is the subject of family worship, because this is a pretty big topic, and we are certainly not breaking any new ground.

There are a ton of podcasts out there that have talked about this subject, but what we wanted to talk about was how we do family worship. This is basically a ministry to people who are feeling like they don't have it all together because we want to be honest and say We don't have it all together either.

No. And sometimes people will feel like, well, I don't know if I'm doing enough or I don't know if I'm doing it right. And often I think people have sort of a Puritan picture in their mind where everyone is sitting around the dinner table and all the little boys are in their nice shirts and all the little girls are in their nice dresses and the father is opening his King James Bible and everyone is sitting perfectly at the dinner table having this wonderful time of perfect family worship.

When was the last time that happened like that for us? It's never happened like that for us. I'd say like a week from never. Yeah. That was about how long ago it was. And yet at the same time, I would say that over the years, our family worship has gotten, I would have to say better in the sense of the kids now expect it if we get to the end of the day, if we get to bedtime and the routine of tooth brushing and bath time and all of those things.

If we get to that time in the day and we have not done family worship, then what do we expect?

They will ask us and say, Daddy, let's do mommy, let's do family worship. Yeah.

And that's really the goal that we had set was we wanted it to become such a normal part of our children's lives that when we did not participate in it, and there are days, I mean there are days when we, like I'll give a good example would be last week.

Last week is our karate camp, which for many of you who are listeners know, I do, I teach karate at our church. We have a karate program and our karate camp program lasted a week and we were gone every day.

And so we would come home in the evening, we would be slapped tired. We would be exhausted. The kids would be exhausted because they were doing the camp all day long. And so I would say last week we probably did family worship less frequently than normal.

And honestly, if we were being honest with the audience, how often do you think we do family worship? Because some families do it every single night. Some families do it twice a week. Some families do it on the Lord's day and on one or two other days.

What is our frequency, would you say?

I would say probably at least five days a week we do it.

So it's not every night, but just about every night. So last week when we did not have family worship to our children, that was odd. And we still did it a couple of the nights, but we didn't do it every night.

What Family Worship Means in the Home

So before we go any further, I do want to take a step back because we're talking, we're just having a conversation about family worship, but there are people who probably don't even know what it is that we're talking about.

I mentioned the Puritan model and a lot of people that we know do practice family worship, but not everybody who listened to this program is probably practicing family worship and some of them probably don't even know what it is.

So very quickly, let's just go through sort of what we mean by family worship and from a historic perspective, what that term has meant. This is where the parents, particularly the father, exercising his role as pastor in the home, if the father is in the home, obviously if it's father's died or something, this would be the mother who would be doing this, but the father exercising that role as pastor in the home is taking the children and the wife, putting them under the reading of the word, and likely with some form of explanation as well, because as we know, when we read the word, the kids have questions, and in doing so, he is also fulfilling the Ephesians 5 command, which is to wash his wife with the water of the word.

So he's giving her the word, he's answering her questions, he's doing what the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 14, where it says if a woman has a question, she should ask her husband at home, so it's giving the opportunity for the husband to exercise his role as pastor within the home, as shepherd, maybe is the better word, of the home, and it doesn't, I wouldn't say every home does it the same, but it's centered around the word.

And so when we say worship, it's not so much like a church service, even though I'm sure there are people out there that model their family worship after church service, but it's an opportunity at one point in the day, or whatever day it's being done, to be focused on the word of God as a family, showing that this is the center of why we do everything that we do, this is our life, this is who we are, we are Christians, this is what we do as Christians, is we gather around the word, and if you have children who are not yet believers, this is, you're pointing them to the gospel, pointing them to Jesus Christ, and so that's what we mean.

Do you have any other additional thoughts on that?

No, I think, over time, it's changed for us, I think, where, I mean, it's always been centered around the word, but sometimes we've added music, and sometimes we've brought in, to make it more fun, some musical instruments, the kids will play, you know, the guitar, play guitar, or ten flute, or, you know, extra things to incorporate that into it, as well as prayer, and we do pray, but it is centered around the word, and also catechism.

We've used catechism, particularly the New City Catechism, the one our homeschool group has.

Growing into Consistency Through the Years

Yeah, and if you look at our children, as we noted earlier, we have six children, two of our children we adopted, so, and that was in 2006, and we, they were, it was Ashley and Cody until 2012, when we had Hope, and during that six-year period, I would say we did family worship very infrequently.

In fact, it probably wasn't as big a part of our life then as it became after we had Hope, and really after JJ and Pickle, it's become more a part of our life in the last several years than it was in the early years, and part of that is because of just plain not knowing, and that's why I say a lot of people today probably never even heard the term, right?

I hope that if you're listening to this now, no matter what state, if you've never heard of this, or never thought about this, I hope you can pick up some of the things that we're saying and say, yeah, we, you know, we can start that, because it doesn't require, you don't have to have, to be a pastor or have a theological degree, I mean, you just have to be a family that loves Jesus, a dad that is willing to take, you know, what the Bible says like in Deuteronomy chapter 6, you know, where it says, you know, you should be teaching the word at home, you know, when you rise, when you go to bed, throughout the day, you know, the scripture should be on your mind, and I think family worship helps gather the family together and kind of flushes that out.

Yeah, absolutely.

And like I said, if you're not currently doing it, we're not shaming you, because we didn't do it consistently. I mean, I know that there were, you know, we read the Bible with Ash and Cody, we prayed with Ash and Cody, but they didn't, they never came to us like our younger kids have come to us and said, you know, Daddy, Mommy, when are we doing family worship?

Because it was not consistent. And so I think we can be honest and say we were not as consistent with our older children, and we're thankful that God has moved on our hearts to be more consistent with our younger children.

And, and yet at the same time, we do mourn, in a sense, you know, the fact that we didn't, we weren't as consistent, and this is no excuse, but I was a young pastor. You were a young mother, we were, we were new to everything.

And so we would, you know, we didn't even start homeschooling until Ash and Cody actually went into middle school.

And that was probably 2010, 2011?

Yeah. And so these were things that we grew into as we began to see the value of them, as people came into our life who did these things like, you know, the, the, the artisans and other people who were homeschoolers, who were, who were successful.

And we saw successful homeschoolers and, and, and so we said, hey, we can do that. Right. And that's part of what I want this to be, is sort of an encouragement, hey, you can do this. Just like what you just said, you don't have to have a theological degree to do this.

You don't have to be a doctor of ministry to do this. Honestly, most of the questions that your children ask you are fundamental questions. Some of them are difficult, but they are questions that probably you yourself have had.

And so if your child asks you a question that you are not comfortable with or not, not comfortable answering, I think it's okay to tell your child, let's look that up together. Have you ever had to do that?

Have you ever had to? Yes.

Several times I've had to do that. I'm trying to just think off the top of my head, but I've had, particularly with JJ, he has come, he's sick. He's almost seven years old, but many times he'll come to me with questions, you know, why did Jesus die on the cross or what would have happened?

Did he have to die on the cross? I remember that was one. Yeah. Did he have to die? Yeah. No. Why do we trust the Bible?

Who wrote the Bible? Where did the Bible come from? How did we get it? All right. Stop with just those four questions. Those are four questions that, honestly, most Christians should know how to answer, but a lot of Christians don't, and doing family worship, hearing your children ask, why do we trust the Bible?

Being able to give your child more than just we do because we do or, you know, have faith in faith or something like that, but to actually have a reasoned response or have to go and find a reasoned response, have to consider a reasoned response to these questions.

This is a benefit to you as the parent, and you get this on double shot because you're a homeschool mom and you're the wife of a minister, but you're a homeschool mom and we do family worship. So you're getting these questions because tell them about Bible and breakfast.

That's different.

That doesn't include me. Well, we follow Christ Church in Moscow has a same page summer program that they're doing now and then through the year they read through the Bible together, and it's probably about 100 ,000 people.

I mean, it's all around the world. It's not just the church in Moscow. It's an app that anybody can get on. Yes.

A U version has a, I subscribe there, and it's over the summer, it's about four chapters a day through the New Testament, and then they do usually two chapters of Psalms and Proverbs. So you're going through over the summer, it's the entire New Testament and the Proverbs and Psalms.

So I gather them in the morning and gather through breakfast and I pray with them. And then we, a combination of listening to someone, you know, the U version, read the Bible and me reading the Bible.

I like them to hear my voice. And then we talk about passages, talk about it together.

Okay. And the reason why I said I'm not included in that is because I'm normally working. You're working. Yeah. So I get up and go and begin, whether it's sermon prep or whether it's lesson prep or whether I'm preparing to go teach like I do on Thursdays at set free, all of these things are things that I'm doing.

So I'm not able to be with you for Bible and breakfast, but you as a homeschool mom, you're able to do this. And we know not every mom is able to, not every mom is a homeschool mom, not every, you know, not every, not every listener is in the same condition.

But that provides bookends for the day where the child, our children are hearing the word of God in the morning and our children are hearing word of the word of God in the evening. And therefore the day is bookended with the word of God.

And then the week begins with worship. We have a Sunday morning, which tell them about a couple of weeks ago when we missed church. And this is, this, this, it was sad, but funny. You, you, I, you had to miss church.

I had to miss church. Our son was running a fever and I sent the girls with Keith and with Ashley and I had JJ with me and we were watching it on the live stream and he saw that, well, number one, he missed Sunday school and he was so upset that he had missed Sunday school.

He loves Miss Cindy. He loves Miss Cindy and Miss Holly. They do a wonderful job teaching the class. And then he, he noticed during the announcements that we had a fellowship meal afterwards and he hung his head low and he was close to tears and said, I love to talk, I love to talk to people and eat the food after church and we're missing it today.

He was just upset because watching it on the live stream is not the same as definitely not a substitute for being there.

Worshiping Together at Church and at Home

Absolutely. Absolutely. And this should be, and again, just a shout out to, to all parents, a thought, you know, it should be an odd thing for a child to miss church. If you're a Christian home and you're a Christian family, the question on Sunday morning should never be, hey, are we going to church today?

That's right. It should be, hey, that Sunday we're going to church and if we're not there, that's, that's something's wrong. Either somebody's sick or we're out of, even, you know, even if you're out of town, you know, when we go out of town, we, we go and we worship somewhere, right?

And we, in fact, that's one of the most joyful things for me because I'm on a scouting mission. I'm learning, I'm like, what do they do here? Oh, look at their bulletins. This looks nice. And I, we had to do this at, you know, I mean, I, you know, I love to go in and be like a secret shopper because I get to sit in and I, and I'm always, I mean, I'm worshiping, of course, but I'm also, you know, looking at how, how, how other churches greet their visitors, how other churches, you know, do the ministry of the gospel and, and singing and, and, and, and fellowship and, and the preaching of the word.

And you know, I only get to go away a couple of times a year. So it's wonderful to get to do that. So yeah, we got off a little, a little off topic, but so worship is a, worship is something that we believe should be a natural part of our children's life.

It should begin our week. It should be a part of the middle of the week because we do have mid middle week worship, which is, you know, we, we have it at Sovereign Grace. We also have a young, young disciples group that meets at Sovereign Grace, and we would say worship should be a part of every other day.

So it's not just, you know, Sunday Christianity or Sunday, Wednesday Christianity, but it's an everyday Christianity.

It's an everyday faith. To add one more caveat to that, you know, we've been working on trying to open our home more to people so that they see it, not just, I guess, compartmentalized, maybe that's the word where it's like, well, we see these people, these are our Sunday friends.

And those people we see at church, but they've never been in our home. That's right. So we want people to be in our home because we want to be with the people. We want to love our church people, our family, or this is our ministry family.

But also because we, we, we believe it's a good thing to teach our children, to teach our children how to be hospitable, you know, to teach our children how to fellowship. And like you said, JJ, you don't have to be taught.

He, he has his mother's gift. And no, this is your, you are a wonderful, you are, you, you have a wonderful spirit in regard to meeting new people and getting to know people and loving people. That's very much a gift that God has given you.

And I see that in him. He, you know, I'm missing talking to people. I'm missing fellowshipping. I want to be there. And, and, and part of that, I'm sure is, you know, his genetic link to you. But I think also as part of that, he has seen that he has seen that practiced in your life.

He sees you being a person who loves other people and wants to get to know people and wants to be in their lives. And so he wants to meet people and get to know people. And, you know, and he is a, he is a watcher, you know, he, he, he, he watches me do things and wanting, Daddy, I want to do that.

I want to do man work. You know, so yeah, remember the one time brother Mike Collier was here pressure washing and he was pressure washing the steeple. He was up on top of the building, pressure washing the steeple.

And JJ was looking at him like he was, like he was an angel, you know, just, and I, and I walk outside and I said, what are you looking at? Suddenly he goes, man work, Daddy. That's man work. And, and, and so having the church family is such a big part of all of this.

And when we have people over, there are times where we invite them to participate in family worship with us, you know, and we invite them to come in and, and, and, you know, sit in and listen to the word, sit in and ask questions, sit in and sing with us.

And we do have the benefit of, I do play an instrument. So, you know, when we sing, I get to play guitar, but as you said earlier, we, we invite the kids and that is the least musical. They are not trained.

This is not Juilliard. This is, this is Callahan, Ding Fram, you know, but, but, but grab an instrument, but it does create a desire to participate. You know, they're not just sitting there listening to Daddy play the guitar, but now they feel like they're in part of what we're doing, especially Faith Pickle.

She will go and get her guitar. She'll walk out. She'll hold her guitar. Now her guitar is missing strings. It's not, it is desperately out of tune, but she crawls up on the chair beside me. She puts it in position, holds it the way I'm holding it.

And she stimulates doing what I'm doing. And at that, in that moment, she is, she is participating in this activity of family worship. And we're praising God.

And we say, what do you want to sing? You know? Same way with Hope. I always have called her, my nickname for her is my songbird because she has a beautiful voice. Yeah. She gets that from her dad. He sings very well too.

But I like, I mean, she'll grab her microphone and she'll sing. She'll participate. She's right there. Now she is able to sing in tune.

No, she sings great. She's great. Yeah. And, and JJ wants to, you know, play the drums or he wants to play the flute or he wants, he wants to participate. And sometimes the participation is just coming in and sitting up against us.

Like I said, we're not sitting around the dinner table, which is fine. If you find that the dinner table works for you and a lot of people, it does because they say, you know, before we clean off the table, we're going to have family worship that everybody's gathered.

Everybody's seated. Everybody's calm. We've just filled our bellies. Now let's fill our souls. We have done it that way too. Yeah. And there's, again, nothing wrong with that. But for us, the picture would be more dinner's over.

The kids have brushed their teeth. The kids have had their showers. You know, we've hosed them down. We've cleaned up the kitchen. Yeah. Everything. So now there's some serenity and we can say, okay, it's time for family worship.

And they gather around our feet. Now, sometimes they'll crawl into our lap. Sometimes the kids will bunch up onto you and you get, you know, you got the belly with the, you know, got Theodore in the middle and one on each side.

And so at that moment you become, you know, very intimate with it. And so in that sense, it's sort of less like church, even though at church we do sit with each other, but it's more like you're up at the top.

You know, I'm not able to be with you. You're not able to be with us. Yeah. And so that's part of what I'm saying is we're not saying do everything at home that you do at church, right? Like I would say there are some things that you do at church that probably shouldn't be done at home.

I'm one that believes that people shouldn't take communion in the home. Now this might lead to another podcast because somebody may send the question, well, why do you think that? I'll give you the very brief answer.

I do believe that communion is something that is to be done within the body of Christ, the local church. Communion is a practice that's not for individuals. I think it's for the body. We read about the discerning of the body and these things in first Corinthians 11.

And therefore when we're having family worship, we're not doing family communion. We don't have family communion. This was a big issue. Real quick. This was a big issue during COVID because of people were saying, well, can we do communion through the screen?

I would say that that's not a good idea, but go ahead.

Just to chime in, our children are not professed believers anyway, so we wouldn't participate in that.

Covenant Children, Family Worship, and the Church

And let's talk about that for a minute too, because there are those in the Presbyterian side, those who we would obviously have some differences with, who would say that we are being inconsistent because we are worshiping with our children and our children are not believers and our children are not Christian.

Therefore, we're not being consistent because their argument is that because their children are part of the covenant, they believe that the covenant is something that they are born into as a child of a believer, that they are now, they are part of the church, part of the covenant.

Therefore, they are able to worship as Christians, even though they're not yet believers. And we would say no, and we would say that they're not part of the covenant. They're not part of the church yet.

We believe they will be by faith, and that's the only reason or way that they will be. But we are still instructing them and doing the mandate of bringing them up in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

So I don't believe we're being inconsistent at all by doing what God has commanded us to do.

I don't either. I think we trust we're bringing them up in the faith and we trust that God will save them according to his will and his time. But that's not something that we can know when that will be or just declare it right now.

Yeah, we can't say that God is obligated to save our children because they're our children. And that's the thing that I think is a struggle for me in regard to the whole covenant family, covenant promises, these things that are held within the Presbyterian view.

And that is that these children have a certain promise because they are born into a Christian family. First Corinthians does tell us that they are sanctified because they are in a Christian family or they have a believing parent.

But it also says an unbelieving spouse is sanctified. But the unbelieving spouse is not a believer. The unbelieving spouse, in my opinion, is not a member of the covenant. Um, so again, I know you and I have some pretty strong feelings about this, so I don't want to don't want to derail the conversation.

I certainly don't want to ostracize any of our Presbyterian listeners. Maybe we have a few and we love you. But there is a there is a distinction. We would say we are raising our children in the fear and admonition of the Lord with the hope and the confidence that God is the one who chooses to save.

God chooses the means by which he saves. He chooses the methods. And we our goal is to proclaim the gospel to our children and to worship, to teach our children what it looks like to be a worshiper. That's right.

And we we train our children to sit in church with us since they were little babies because we want them to be part of the church in that way. We teach them at home to point them towards Christ. We take them to church, I mean, to multiple church services per week.

I mean, we the whole goal of that is is for them to. God will do what he wills to save them, but we want to train them in that way.

Family Integrated Worship and Training Children to Participate

I'm glad you mentioned that. In fact, you went where I was going to go. See, of one mind. All right. High five. OK, we have because I think that family worship is a byproduct of family integrated worship.

And for those of you who don't know, we practice family integrated worship at Sovereign Grace Family Church. What that means is that we do not have a time in our service wherein we separate the adults from the children and the children go into one place and the adults go into another place.

I'll tell you. So funny. I got to tell a quick story. Recently, I watched a debate between Andy Stanley and Jeff Durbin, and it was on the subject of whether or not we should unhitch the Old Testament from the church.

The debate didn't have anything to do with what what was what this anecdote was during the debate. It was on the Unbelievable Radio program. The Andy Stanley was talking to Jeff Durbin as they were debating, and he said, I don't know how you're able to preach an hour long sermon.

This is Andy Stanley talking to Durbin. He said, I don't know how you're able to preach an hour long sermon. He said, your services must be so long. I don't know how you're able to get your volunteers who serve your children's ministries to be able to tolerate that long of a service.

Now, I'm paraphrasing, but that's basically what he said. He said, I don't know how you can preach an hour long sermon and do all the other things you do in the service. I mean, we went to Jeff Durbin's church.

We worshiped there. It was a two hour service. It started at four o 'clock. It wasn't done until around six o 'clock, and they had a 15 minute time of just meet and greet in the middle of the service.

They stopped the service and everybody walked around greeting one another and loving one another. We love that. I thought it was great. But the thing that got me was Jeff didn't even respond because it wasn't the subject of the debate.

But Jeff's response could have been, we don't have children's ministries. We don't have volunteers who are going out and watching other people's children because those children are in the service with us.

That's right. I mean, I know when we were there, that was all the kids were there. Some families had little infants, some had babies and stuff, and at Sovereign Grace, we practice family integrated worship, which gives birth to the family worship that happens in the home because that's the natural outgrowth is if your children are sitting with you in worship, which was the model for millennium until the last 50 years when the youth group model exploded and families started to say they couldn't worship their kids anymore and their kids had to be shipped off to these children's churches.

The model was you had dad, mom, and the kids, and if the kids got out of line, dad took the child out, got them in line, brought them back into church. Yeah, that's right. And that was tough for you too because you didn't have me.

Yeah.

Very thankful for my older children at the time. They were helpful in that. Yeah, absolutely.

And I would say this to a person, maybe a person who wants to visit our church and maybe who does have children and thinks, well, my child's going to be loud. It's going to be difficult. We get it. There's not very many people in this church who haven't gone through that same thing, who haven't had to deal with their child being the one who was a little disturbing or a little loud, and we get that.

And it's no big deal, right? We understand that that's going to happen. We do hope that if the child becomes really disruptive, that a parent would take them out and have a talk with them or whatever, but you calm them down, bring them back in.

And you've had to do that with all three of ours, all three of our littles. Ashley and Cody came to us when they were already four and six, so we really didn't have that issue with them, but you've had to do that with...

Particularly two and three is very hard, very active at those ages. But I can remember even on times where maybe I didn't have Cody or Ashley and I had the littles, I call them my littles, were with me.

I would grab another teenager or another mom. Yeah.

People want to help. They want to help. And I've seen Hope sitting with the wards or with the buds. Yeah. And it's like, hey, praise the Lord. Hope's there. That means JJ's probably getting a spanking.

If Hope is alone, JJ is somewhere else in this building getting his what for, and to get him in line, to get him back to where he can come in and sit quietly. Because so much... It's so funny in our world, because a child can sit quietly and watch YouTube for hours.

Yeah. A child can sit quietly in a movie theater and watch a movie for hours. A child can sit at a video game for hours. And yet when we say, okay, we're going to come into the worship service, and our worship service lasts, what was it, an hour and 45 minutes at least?

At least. We start at 1030. We don't end until 1215. So that's 1030, 1130 is an hour. Yeah, it's an hour and 45 minutes. So our services last an hour and 45 minutes. And we say, you know what? That is a lot.

That's a lot for an adult to sit through. It's a lot for a child to sit through. We understand there's going to be times where children make a little noise and things like that. But if we are doing family worship at home, and we are teaching these things at home, then these things become better practiced in the church, and vice versa.

If we're doing this at church, when we gather to worship in the home, these things become a better practice there as well. That's right.

Yeah. And don't be discouraged, too. I mean, at first, I mean, maybe when they were two and three, maybe we would last 30 minutes. Well, then maybe next time 40 minutes or 50. I mean, I remember cheering and being super excited the first time we made it through the service with all of them.

So sometimes they can just take work, but don't be discouraged.

Practical Helps for Starting Family Worship

Yeah, and we're fixing to start all over. And there is no telling what we got coming. I mean, this is number six. This one could be all knees and elbows. And the hardest part for us is you've sort of done this, like I said, almost kind of like a single mom, because I can't abandon the pulpit to come down and help you, even though there have been times where I have from the pulpit said, Hope, stop.

And I remember seeing everybody in the church looking, and I'm like, I'm going to get on to my child if I see my child acting up, even if I'm in the pulpit, because I'm not sitting with my wife. So I've said, Hope, stop that, or JJ, stop that.

And I think people appreciate that. I don't think anybody's ever been offended by me getting on to my children. But you are there without other people. So I would say to a person who is going to a church that's family integrated, and maybe you are a single parent, maybe you're in that situation, don't automatically feel like you're alone.

There are people who will help you. Like you said, we've had the buds, the wards, other folks who have come alongside. We have the benefit of my dad and mom, or dad and stepmom, rather, being members of the church, and the kids can sit with them sometimes.

So there's all kinds of things that if we think about it and think through it, and when I say be creative, I don't mean be super pragmatist, but be creative in how we approach worship. One of the things you do on Sunday morning in worship is the bag.

Tell them about the bag. I call it my survival kit. And did somebody else give you this idea, or was it something that you just sort of came up with?

A couple of moms gave me an idea. And I have drawing pads, crayons, colored pencils. I have the fidget spinner and the little poppet. I mean, things that are quiet. And sometimes they just need to hold something or have something in their hands.

But now that they're getting older, sometimes I don't even pull anything out of the bag. They can sit and listen for the whole hour. But that's a curve, right?