George Bryson Sends Me an Email, then Surah 4:157

Alpha & Omega Ministries

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

Comments are disabled.

00:12

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

00:19

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

00:27

Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

00:33

Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation if you'd like to talk with dr.

00:38

White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

00:43

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

00:50

Here is James white And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a

00:55

Tuesday morning and I'm happy to report there are no protesters outside this morning which is which is a good thing and and Hopefully we've seen the last those folks for a while Since I personally prefer conversations with folks, you know, where's there's give -and -take and there's some level of rationality, but Those are those are the better conversations.

01:20

So what today on the dividing line? Which is not an internet radio station for those who are confused about such things, but this is called a webcast

01:30

Bunch of stuff to talk about and to take your calls at eight seven seven seven five three three Three four one is the phone number here at our infamous underground bunker of unknown origin and location and stuff like that, but a couple things

01:47

I Have a stack of tough seer literature here that I'm going to be looking at I am loading up still as we speak was sort of running around a little bit right before the program getting everything put together

02:00

A debate that I have queued up at least three or four times and just we haven't been able to get around to it

02:06

And I want to be able to do so but first I got an email this morning from someone who

02:15

Had been in contact with with our our buddy George Bryson now. We have spent a fair amount of time listening to George Bryson on the program and Listening very carefully to what he has to say and responding to it and It seems that Mr.

02:36

Mr. Bryson feels that that he's being misrepresented if I say he's not willing to debate and says he's more more than willing to debate and What I'm referring to of course is the fact that back at the beginning of last year just a little over a year ago

02:54

There was an attempt to arrange a debate With mr.

02:59

Bryson up in Salt Lake City and that attempt failed and the reason that it failed Is that mr.

03:05

Bryson would not allow it to be an actual academic debate now. We've done a debate and Now mr.

03:13

Bryson says that there is some chicanery involved with that. I have no idea what he's referring to He says the day of the debate things were changed

03:21

I have no idea what he's talking about when he makes that kind of assertion Anyone can watch the video of the debate and see that everybody had the same amount of time, you know, etc, etc the main thing that That came up that kept the debate from taking place

03:40

Was the fact that mr. Bryson would not allow for cross -examination and my assertion is of course that if you do not have

03:51

Cross -examination that you are not having a debate at all So let me read what what

03:58

George Bryson said in this email that was sent to me If white has actually said or implied that I will not debate him or anyone else on the top of Calvinism It is a mere self -serving self -promoting fantasy

04:09

I would love to debate white again and have a number of emails to prove it Ask what ask what to provide should be white

04:16

I guess to provide you with the correspondence I had with those attempting to arrange a debate and read them all of them for yourself

04:21

I have been asked by Calvinist to defend stupid things like is man his own co -savior or co -regenerator, etc

04:27

Of course, I would not defend such a silly proposition Many Calvinist want to frame and frame the debate and define the terms as if he does not

04:34

I have suggested we engage in a more productive debate in which I was told James White wanted no part of and What that means is no cross -examination.

04:43

I don't want to have to answer your questions For example,

04:48

I would like to debate the question. Does Calvinism teacher imply that God is the cause of sin? I know James White believes he is but it appears to me that he will not debate me on this issue ask him or do you only print what you want to print true or not in Christ George Bryson and So I'm going to Point out what

05:05

I I'm going to read to you what I wrote to mr. Bryson this is in on January 5th of 2006 and you see if if I'm being irrational or if I'm Dodging George Bryson or you know, if I if I if I felt that George Bryson had anything meaningful to say in Refutation reform theology.

05:26

Why do I play his own presentations on my program? I don't hear him playing my presentations on his program, but that's another issue

05:35

This is from January 5th 2006 George. Let me explain my understanding as to why

05:40

The folks up there in Salt Lake City had attempted to arrange this debate There is a there's some background about some people that left the

05:48

Calvary Chapel up there and and became reformed in their theology and As a result, the

05:53

Calvary Chapel folks began speaking out against Calvinism relying upon such information as that provided by Dave Hunt and yourself

06:00

When the pastor of the reformed the OPC Church up there approached them They sought to find someone to represent their position

06:06

Of course Dave Hunt declined for while he will debate almost anyone on almost anything else. He will not debate me on Calvinism I've exposed his error so many times

06:14

He knows that is a losing proposition And so it is my understanding that the folks who have asked you to participate are in fact

06:19

Calvary Chapel folks begin with is this? Not correct Secondly, and then I second paragraph.

06:24

I went through the number of debates. I was we doing in 2006 including Shabir Ali and John Shelby Spong and so on so forth

06:32

Since 1990 I have engaged in nearly 60 moderated public debates on a tremendous variety of issues and I have learned one thing

06:39

George For the vast majority of modern viewers of debates the debate itself takes place in the cross -examination

06:48

Without Cross -examination you might as well set up a CD player insert the best brief

06:54

Presentation of one speaker the best of the other and play them Without interaction. All you have is competing talks

07:01

You can get that in the comfort of your home off the net Anyone can listen to your sermons against Calvinism anyone can listen to my sermons presenting and defending it

07:11

What they cannot hear outside of a real debate is how either of us answered direct biblically based

07:19

Questions that is the only reason for debate in the first place Also if my ministry is going to undertake the expense and work of videotaping this and providing you with a free unedited

07:29

Master our policy is simple for us to go through all that work. We need to be videotaping a debate

07:36

Without cross -ex. There is no debate. Hence. It is not worth our effort Now if you are asking if I am open for a non debate debate, you are correct

07:45

There is no debate without cross -ex any more than there is preaching without the Word of God the cross or repentance But if you are asking about freedom to address the issue that would be most useful in the salt lake area

07:55

The will of man in the light of Scripture I am more than open to any suggestions you have but I am hardly being unreasonable to make the following assertions number one.

08:04

I am a Calvinist because of exegesis not philosophical speculation exegesis is the foundation of Reformed theology

08:11

Hence the topic needs to be biblical and the grounds of discussion the text of the inspired

08:17

Word of God Mormons do not need more philosophical discussions. They need to hear the

08:22

Word of God number two Debates are too brief as it is hence to divide the topic up only makes the situation worse

08:30

One topic is more than enough for a single evening So unless someone can show me where the above is untrue irrational, etc

08:38

I think we have a solid foundation upon which to move forward the location salt lake Makes it wise to address the issue of the will of man what

08:45

Mormons call free agency what you call free will You hold certain beliefs concerning the will of man and the grace of God that I believe are an error

08:52

I believe I can demonstrate those errors biblically if you believe I am wrong and you can defend your views biblically and disprove mine

08:59

Biblically, let's proceed How would you frame the question based upon the only meaningful foundation the inspired

09:05

Word of God? And so that is what I sent to to mr. Bryson and obviously no debate took place because mr.

09:13

Bryson will not allow for a real debate What he wants is the opportunity of making his presentation without Having to interact with me now we have played

09:28

Portions of the cross -examination between myself and George Bryson in this program before I did not cue them up today because I have

09:34

I think more important things to discuss today but the fact the matter is George Bryson did not do well in cross -examination and I think the vast majority certainly vast majority of people who have contacted us about the

09:48

Bible answer man broadcast I Like I said I've talked to a number of people who were very upset by the

09:55

Bible answer man broadcast because they held George's viewpoint But recognized only one side was actually touching the text of Scripture and handling it appropriately and the other side was just bouncing around on philosophical presuppositions and things like that and not dealing with the text at all and They were listening to the

10:12

Bible answer man broadcast. And that's what they wanted to hear was some Bible and Mr.

10:17

Bryson is not an exegete. That's just all there is to it It was it's it's painful to listen to him spinning in circles

10:25

Trying to answer the issues relating to John chapter 6 He can't do it and I think somewhere in the back of his mind

10:33

He realizes he can't do it and therefore what he wants is a single -sided presentation

10:39

Which as I said, anybody can get that if they just simply Download my sermons download his talks play them on your computer

10:48

We don't have to videotape, but we don't have to travel anywhere. We don't have to pay for a location We don't have to do anything like that.

10:54

If that's what you want to call a debate then nobody needs Us to go anywhere to do that.

11:01

You can do that in the comfort of your living room but that is Is not what a debate is and so if mr.

11:09

Bryson will agree to engage in the kind of debate that allows for Cross examination and interaction between the individuals making the presentations and if he is willing

11:22

And did you notice something in his in his note? And this came out in our review of his presentation to the

11:29

Calvary Chapel pastors. He doesn't want to defend his position He doesn't want to have to make a positive presentation

11:37

Because well, you know, we're not theologians and Calvary Chapel, you know, just reading the Bibles. I can make you a theologian and He doesn't want to have all he wants to do is go after Calvinism draft

11:46

Calvinism He doesn't want to have to defend his alternative. He doesn't want to defend his own position

11:51

And so he wants to avoid that he wants to not have to put his out He does not want to have to demonstrate the consistency of his own viewpoints.

12:00

All right And so if mr. Bryson will allow for a thesis that means that he defends the consistency of a positive position and He allows for cross -examination then let's do it or how about two nights and I'll defend an element of Reformed Theology One night and then let him defend the opposite the next night

12:23

Whatever but make it meaningful and worthwhile to the people who are going to be engaging in the debate

12:30

Coming to the debate and for those who are going to be listening later on That's what we've been saying from the beginning.

12:36

I'm going to be writing to mr. Bryson After program today,

12:42

I'm going to be letting him know the right the beginning of the program. So we've got it up he can listen to my response to the email that he sent this individual and his assertions that it's a fantasy or something and And he can and in fact if for some reason he's listening or if he'd like to come on the program and explain

13:00

Explain to folks how you can have a debate without cross -examination without the actual interaction of the participants

13:08

So that people can see who is being consistent see who can handle the text of the

13:13

Word of God who can walk through the inspired text without Stumbling and falling isn't that what the people of God need to hear?

13:21

I'm willing to do that is George Bryson, that's the question. We can't get

13:27

Dave hunt to do it. We can't get Norm Geisler to do it we can't get the the the big wigs and the

13:32

Southern Baptist Convention that love preaching sermons against The Doctrines of Grace and everybody remembers what happened we tried to get the canners to do it

13:40

You know, the the history is long we we have demonstrated our willingness to do this and our ability and capacity to do this and We have explained why we feel it's important We have explained very clearly why we feel it's exceptionally important to address these particular issues

13:58

Because they do determine the methodology you're going to use and you're apologetic They're going to determine even in the debate.

14:06

We're gonna start listening to today. They greatly impact the methodology that you use and you're starting presuppositions, so There's my response

14:15

George Bryson Mr. Bryson if you would be willing to actually debate to actually do the whole debate not just presentations not just sound clips

14:24

But do the cross -examination Then then let's do it more than happy to do that But if there's not gonna be a cross -examination then don't call that a debate because it isn't

14:34

That's that's just competing presentations that have that don't even necessarily have to have anything to do with one another

14:40

Anybody can do that as long as they've got a CD player or a good internet connection. So there's the response to that now

14:48

I Want to move from there? to listening to a debate that took place

14:58

About three years ago now up. It's a Regent University and I Mm -hmm.

15:09

How do I approach this? I've got a fair amount of Sort of background information

15:15

I think will help you to Appreciate the debate more. I think I'll start with that before jumping into it and then jumping out of that into Back and forth between the debate and background issues and things like that You undoubtedly have heard me make reference to the fact that One of the key texts and one of the texts that gives rise to part of the the major conflict between Christianity and Islam given that Islam claims to be the continuation of the prophets they believe that Jesus and and And the the prophets came before him were were

15:57

Muslims That they looked like Muslims and they prayed like Muslims and and so on so forth the one of the chief areas of conflict is of course the means by which

16:07

Mankind is to be saved or if mankind even really needs to be saved in the first place

16:13

What salvation is what sin is is there such a thing as atonement?

16:19

Repentance the punishment of sin the very justice of God. These are all issues and we've played clips, for example from the debate between Shabir Ali and William Lane Craig on this particular subject and have commented on The give -and -take at that particular point and there's a good illustration of where your theology determines the methodology and the very answers that you provide in an apologetic context well

16:44

The key text was one of the key texts which you have heard us discuss many times before but I hope

16:51

If I were to ask my listening audience today if if you can name

16:57

This text and if you know where to find it I'm hoping that a larger a slightly larger percentage

17:07

Than when we started would be able to say yes, I know where that's found in the

17:13

Quran These are these are the words and because they're saying we slew the

17:19

Messiah Jesus Son of Mary all his messenger They slew him not nor crucified But appeared so unto them and lo those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof

17:29

They have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture They slew him not for certain or in a more popular translation

17:38

That they said in boast we killed Christ Jesus the Son of Mary the Apostle of Allah But they killed him not nor crucified him

17:45

But it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no certain knowledge

17:51

But only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not now this is of course surah 4 1 57 and I am reading from various English Translations of the

18:05

Quran at that point. The first was depict all translation. The second was Yusuf Ali Now, why do

18:11

I bring this up again? well, I have been continuing the process with your your help and support the ministry has been continuing the process of building up my

18:22

Islamic library original source library and I mentioned on the program last week beginning to build up the

18:31

Tafsir literature, which in essence if you're not familiar with Islamic literature would basically be the the correlation to biblical commentaries, but obviously in this context

18:43

Quranic commentaries drawing from the hadith literature but also providing that kind of discussion of the use of terms in the

18:52

In the Quran just as you would read and in good biblical literature You will have discussions of vocabulary in the background of terms and things like that and so I have been collecting that and and building up my library at that particular point and so Before we start a the the debate that took place on the crucifixion of Christ.

19:14

I felt it would be important To have an understanding of what Muslims believe on this particular subject, but what's interesting is

19:23

I? Brought four volumes into the office today, and I think I think combined they weigh about 20 pounds between the between the four of them and one of them is actually a paperback which makes a little bit easier movies over here, but the one of them that I Talked to you before the message of the

19:43

Quran translated and explained by Muhammad Assad This is the one that comes courtesy of the

19:50

Council on American Islamic relations It's got the little the little thing on the on the side there, so I'm not sure if that makes it politically correct or just what but it's pretty there's there's no two ways about it

20:03

It's it's you know You're not even good. I'm gonna comment on that one. I saw you reaching for it.

20:10

I just can't stand it Like you want to like you know wash your hands after oh,

20:17

I know yeah, I Maybe I shouldn't say in public that I own books that were

20:22

You know have that thing on the side, but anyway But it is like I said it. It's I don't think you've even looked at it

20:29

I mean, it's just this is this is high quality clay type paper color.

20:35

I mean look look at look I haven't had a chance to look at that one That's amazing, but you know the other ones that you've you've gotten from other sources

20:42

They're all very I mean this is some heavy to heavy -duty workmanship there. Yeah, they're very serious

20:47

Okay, let me put this way. I'm really good, or they're really bad well

20:53

Yeah, I've gotten some that you just like wow I don't even know that I want to open the cover of the pages are gonna fall out so that they're either really good

21:01

They're really bad. Yeah, yeah, but that's I just I just when you showed me that I just couldn't stop laughing

21:07

Well, I guess you got to get it from somewhere. You got to get it somewhere. That's right So anyway what this huge volume does it gives you the the

21:16

Arabic it gives you a transliteration It gives you the English translation and then extensive small print notes

21:23

Which provide this is in essence the coral a hardback corollary to a study Bible, okay, and You know let's let's let's face the fact

21:34

You could find a lot of study Bibles today that say a lot of very different things

21:41

You know I hear people all the time ragging on the John MacArthur study Bible And he says this here, and he says that there and of course all the anti -calvinists hate

21:50

The Geneva study Bible or the Reformation spirit the spirit of the Reformation study Bible or whatever, but then you've got you know completely heretical things like Dakes annotated

22:00

Bible and its wackiness, and you know anymore you've got left -handed green -eyed study

22:06

Bibles It's just absurd the number of study Bibles Yeah, I don't use study Bibles by the way because if you want a commentary go get a commentary

22:14

Why should I have to carry the commentary with me the rest of my life if I'm gonna do that doesn't make any sense to Me so anyways.

22:19

I don't use them I did I did grow up with one, but I don't don't use me anymore So this is in essence the same thing though carrying this thing around man

22:27

This would this would be very very unpleasant over a long period of time I Want to read to you the commentary?

22:35

Provided by Assad is that the name of the terrorist on 24 to the bit the dust last night

22:40

Oh, Pope I didn't didn't ruin that for anybody Actually I actually watched for the first time in like eight.

22:47

I don't know six weeks I don't know how long has been ever since before the tomb thing I Bailed out, and I tuned back in just just early enough to it wasn't six, okay

22:56

And I was able to follow everything because you bailed out right at the first part of March and here We are halfway into yeah, yeah, so I missed about six weeks worth, but anyway

23:09

Assad yes, that's Talk about taking a little left turn there What are you playing with?

23:15

Leave leave leave leave leave the little switches alone as long as it's not making noises that we don't want.

23:20

It's it's good It's a good thing anyway. Here is the commentary to surah 4 157 provided by Assad Thus the

23:30

Quran categorically denies the story of the crucifixion of Jesus there exist among Muslims Many fanciful legends telling us that the last moment

23:38

God substituted for Jesus a person closely resembling him According to some accounts that person was Judas who was subsequently crucified in his place however

23:45

None of these legends finds the slightest support in the Quran or in authentic Traditions and the stories produced in this connection by the classical commentators must be summarily rejected

23:56

They represent no more than confused attempts at harmonizing the Quranic statement that Jesus was not crucified

24:03

With the graphic description in the Gospels of his crucifixion the story of the crucifixion as such has been succinctly explained in the chronic phrase while a team should be ha la huma which

24:16

I render as but it only appeared to them as if it had been so Implying that in the course of time long and listen to this listen listen to this

24:26

This is sort of more of the Western spin. Okay, if you want to sort of the Western spin here

24:32

Implying that in the course of time long after the time of Jesus a Legend had somehow grown up possibly under the then powerful influence of Mithraistic beliefs.

24:44

Oh, yeah to the effect that he had died on the cross in order to atone for the original sin with which mankind is allegedly burdened and This legend became so firmly established among the latter -day followers of Jesus that even his enemies the

24:57

Jews began to believe it Albeit in a derogatory sense for crucifixion was in those times a heinous form of death penalty reserved for the lowest of criminals

25:05

This to my mind is the only satisfactory explanation of the phrase the more so as the expression should be

25:11

Should be holly is idiomatically synonymous with Kuyila Lee a thing became a fancied image to me ie in my mind in other words

25:22

It seemed to me and then various references are given then Right after 157.

25:29

We it really is a continuation the same sentence. So we I should read it nay God Exalted him unto himself and God is indeed almighty and wise and let me put this

25:40

Down a second. Let me read you a couple of the other translations of 158 Assad says

25:47

That is Assad nay God exalt him unto himself and God is deed almighty wise Malik says nay the fact is that Allah Took him up to himself all is mighty and wise picked all but Allah took him up unto himself and Yusuf Ali nay

26:01

Allah raised him up unto himself then notice the difference between Raised him up unto himself and God Exalted him unto himself

26:11

Assad, which is the commentary reading here in the translation says exalted The other three translations in English have took him up to himself

26:20

Now keep that in mind and We continue

26:27

It's be a whole lot lighter in electronic form Where God says to Jesus verily

26:34

I shall cause thee to die and shall exalt thee unto me the the the verb

26:39

Rafa ahu Literally, he raised him or elevated him has always whenever the act of Raf elevating of a human being is attributed to God the meaning of honoring or Exalting nowhere in the

26:51

Quran. Is there any warrant for the popular belief? That God has taken up Jesus bodily in his lifetime into heaven the expression

27:00

God exalted him unto himself in the above verse denotes the elevation of Jesus in the realm of God's special grace a blessing in which all prophets partake as is evident from 1957 where the verb

27:11

Rafa now who we exalted him is used with regard to the Prophet Idris There are also other references given at that particular point in time

27:21

The nay ball at the beginning of the sentence is meant to stress the contrast between the belief of the

27:26

Jews They had put Jesus to a shameful death on the cross and the fact of God's having exalted him unto himself then

27:35

Just one more. I want to read because I'm gonna be reading the other ones here verse 158 in Assad's 159

27:42

Assad's translation yet. There is not one of the followers of earlier revelation

27:47

Who does not at the moment of his death? Grasp the truth about Jesus and on the day of resurrection.

27:55

He himself shall bear witness to the truth against them Now, what does that mean?

28:02

You're gonna find out there's the the text despite the fact that the Quran says it is a clear book is not clear at all

28:09

Let me read it again from Assad yet There is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not at the moment of his death

28:15

Grasp the truth about Jesus on the day of resurrection. He himself shall bear witness to the truth against them

28:22

Now, let me give you some of the other translations Malik says there is none of the people of the book but will believe in this fact before his death and On the day of resurrection

28:33

Jesus will bear witness against them Piktal has there is not one of the people of the scripture But will believe in him before his death and on day of resurrection

28:41

He will be a witness against him and Yusuf Ali has and there is none of the people of the book But must believe in him before his death and on the day of judgment.

28:48

He will be a witness against them Now, what does that mean if these are all clear and so on and so forth?

28:54

Well, let me give you Assad's interpretation He says literally

29:00

Who does not believe in him before his death according to this verse all believing

29:06

Jews and Christians Realize at the moment of their death That Jesus was truly a prophet of God Having been neither an imposter nor the

29:18

Son of God So that's the that's the understanding of Assad is at the moment of death

29:24

Jews and Christians Know the truth about who Jesus was that he was not an imposter for the

29:31

Jews and Neither was he the Son of God for Christians. So there you have

29:37

Assad. So I Picked up what picked up the next sort of went by size.

29:44

It was rather odd, but Made it interesting. I picked up the next Commentary the noble Quran tafsir a us money

29:52

Shabir Ahmed us money Is our editor and author here and this is one of the not -so -well -made ones

30:01

I was talking about before it's got a nice little bookmark on it, but the the binding is highly questionable Here's here's his commentary and notice how different this is from what we just read.

30:14

This is also on on 157 the severity of chastisements increased when the

30:20

Jews earned another infidelity a They rejected the Holy Christ and insulted him by uttering a heinous and mighty calumny against Mary The severity became graver when the

30:30

Jews in their self -hallucination Said that they slew Messiah Jesus Son of Mary while he was a messenger of God Due to all these infidelities and transgressions the

30:39

Jews suffered great miseries and chastisements But God repudiates the claim of the Jews They slew the

30:45

Christ The fact is that the Jews neither slew Jesus nor crucified him The different statements of the

30:51

Jews about it are nothing but the surmises of the Jews God threw them in doubt None of them is aware of the reality

30:56

The fact is that God raised Jesus up to heaven and God is powerful over everything and there is always wisdom in his actions

31:03

The real story is that when the Jews intended to kill Jesus one of the Jews entered the house

31:09

God raised Hasrat Isa up to heaven and the shape of that Jew was transformed into the like shape of Hasrat Isa When the rest of the

31:19

Jews entered into the house, they killed their man thinking him Jesus But when they observed they said the face of the man resembled that of Jesus But the body appeared to be of their own man

31:29

Now they were cast in doubt Some said if the slain was Jesus then where was their man some said if it was their man

31:36

Then where was the Messiah they were at variance and could not decide anything now What they utter is nothing but surmise.

31:42

No one is aware of the real fact The real fact is that Jews neither slew Hasrat Isa nor they crucified him

31:48

But God raised him up into the heaven and through the Jews in doubt now

31:53

That's completely different than what Assad said Assad said this is Silliness and and and cannot be substantiated by any historical

32:04

You know Substantiation and then in regards to Jesus there is not a single section of the people the book

32:12

But that will certainly believe in Jesus before his death and on the day of resurrection He'll be a witness against them.

32:17

It says Hasrat I says alive in the heavens when Dajjal will appear he will come down on the earth and slay the

32:24

Dajjal The Jews and Christians shall believe in him that surely Hasrat Isa has been alive and had not died on the day of resurrection

32:31

Hasrat Isa will state their conditions indeed that the Jews had rejected and opposed him in the world and that the

32:36

Christians had said that He was the Son of God and notice The phrase son of God doesn't appear anywhere in this context and yet it keeps appearing in the commentary

32:46

But the commentary here is exactly opposite of Assad's Assad has this taking place in a moment of their death this has

32:53

Jesus still alive and Before his death That isn't even explained in this particular in this particular context all right two more

33:05

Because we gotta get the other thing and we went blowing by the break, but that's okay life life will life will continue on Here we have

33:13

Sayyid Abul Alaa Maududi Towards understanding the Quran volume 2 surahs 4 through 6 and Maududi is well known

33:25

Let's see this is Did it do this verse categorically states that Jesus was raised on high before he could be crucified and That the belief of both the

33:36

Jews and the Christians that Jesus died on the cross is based on a misconception as a result of a Comparative study of the chronic and biblical versions we are persuaded that so far as the trial at the court of Pilate is concerned

33:47

It was probably Jesus who was tried Pilate sentenced him to death after the

33:52

Jews showed their deep hostility to truth and righteousness by openly Declaring that in their view the life of a thief was of higher value than that of a man with such a pure soul as Jesus it was then that God raised

34:03

Jesus up to heaven the person the Jews subsequently crucified with someone else who For one reason or another was mistaken for the person of Jesus The fact that the person who had actually been crucified with someone someone other than Jesus does not in any way detract from the guilt

34:17

Of the Jews for in their minds it was Jesus whose head they were crowning with thorns and whose face they were spitting and whom

34:23

They were subjecting to crucifixion wasn't that the Romans that were doing that Isn't that interesting?

34:29

We are not in a position now to find out how and why such a confusion arose as No authentic source of information is available to us

34:37

It would be inappropriate to conjecture and speculate about the cause of the misapprehension Which led the Jews to believe that they had crucified

34:43

Jesus son of Mary whereas he had already passed far beyond their grasp Those who differed were refers to the

34:51

Christians now the last one who read Refer to the Jews now this one says refers the Christians the

34:56

Christians have dozens of different versions Rather than one universally agreed view regarding the crucifixion of the

35:03

Messiah This in itself is an eloquent testimony that the Christians were doubtful about the actual event

35:08

Some of them held the view that the one who was crucified was someone other than Jesus and that Jesus himself in fact remained standing

35:15

Somewhere nearby laughing at their folly I would love to have references to this stuff because obviously if there is such a reference

35:24

That would of course be to a second century Gnostic text based upon a completely different worldview

35:30

That would have really nothing historically to do with the reality of what took place in first century

35:35

Palestine Others were of the opinion that the one who was crucified was certainly Jesus himself But that he did not die on the cross and was still alive when brought down from it

35:43

Yeah Christians have always believed that right others assert that though Jesus died on the cross He later returned to life met his disciples and conversed with them about ten times.

35:51

That's called the New Testament Again, some believe that the human body of Jesus suffered death and was buried while the spirit of Godhead in him was taken up on high again early heretics

36:02

Yet others believe that after his death the Messiah was resurrected physically and was subsequently taken up to heaven in physical form

36:08

Had the truth been fully known and well established so many divergent views could not have gained currency like You've got to hear that.

36:16

I hope you you're not to just start tuning out because as well, and I'm never gonna run to a

36:22

Muslim Listen what he says Had the truth been fully known and well established so many divergent views could not have gained currency

36:31

So that would mean that if the truth about Muhammad and the Quran was fully known then we shouldn't shouldn't have

36:39

Sunnis and Shiites and we we shouldn't have wahhabis and there shouldn't be any of the

36:46

Divergent viewpoints and all the rest that stuff you find in Islam, right? I think they're all over in the

36:51

Middle East trying to rectify that situation. Oh, yeah, and very peacefully, too I mean they very very peacefully go ultimately

36:57

You know each group wants to be the only one that that's the way you wind up being right That's how you do it.

37:02

You just blow her belts up Footnote note 195. This is the truth revealed by God What is categorically asserted here is merely the

37:09

Jews did not succeed in killing Messiah But the God raised him unto himself the Quran furnishes no detailed information about the actual form of this raising

37:17

It neither states category that God raised him from the earthly sphere to some place in heaven in both body and soul

37:23

Nor that his body died on earth and his soul alone was raised to heaven Hence neither the two alternatives can be definitively are definitely affirmed nor denied on the basis of the

37:32

Quran if One reflects on the Quranic version of the event one gets the impression that whatever the actual form of this raising

37:38

The event was of an extraordinary character this Extraordinariness is evident from three things first the

37:44

Christians believe in the ascension of the Messiah in both body and soul Which was one of the reasons for large sections of people to believe in the

37:51

Godhead of Jesus The Quran does not refute that idea, but employs the same term Roth ie ascension employed by the

37:58

Christians It is inconceivable to the Quran which describes itself as the clear book would employ an expression that might lend support to a misconception

38:05

It seeks to repudiate of course I stopped there and say that assumes that Muhammad had any idea what he was talking about in Regards to the

38:15

New Testament scriptures in the first place which I would say he did not Second one might assume that are the ascension the

38:21

Messiah was of the kind that takes place at every person's death or that his ascension meant merely the exaltation of a prophet's position like that of Idris and We raised him to an exalted station sir a

38:32

Mariam 1957 had it been so this idea would have been better expressed by a statement such as They go on to discuss various and sundry ways of looking at this particular thing.

38:42

I'm just taking a little longer I thought last one real quickly Sayyid Qutub in the shade of the

38:47

Quran Qutub of course very very important establishment the Islamic Brotherhood and hence in the rise of Osama bin

38:55

Laden in our day This was the man who visited the United States in 1948 thought the

39:01

Indian Wars were still going on okay that gives you No, seriously. I'm not making this up he thought we were still fighting the

39:06

Indian Wars and that gives you some sense of the historical anachronisms and and Lack of accuracy in a lot of stuff that is seen as being very very important well, you can easily see why he would think that given the fact that Westerns were very very popular during the day if if he were to come into 21st century

39:29

America he would think that we're at war with machines. Oh, yes, well.

39:34

We've got Maybe not he went to Colorado and so may you know there are lots of Indian reservations up in Colorado It was the the

39:43

Great West and so I don't know how anybody could think that the Indian Wars were still going on in 1948

39:48

I'll be perfect honest with you, but it didn't change him if you stay in your motel room and all you I don't know.

39:55

I don't know. I don't know how much traveling around he did anyway Verse 157 158

40:02

Excited then it says as regards whether Jews was killed or crucified the Jews and the Christians make false claims Which have no basis other than their own suspicions the

40:10

Jews claimed to have killed him ridiculing his assertion He was God's messenger the Christians on the other hand claimed that he was crucified and buried

40:16

But they also claimed that he was raised three days later as for history It states nothing about Christ's birth or his end almost as if nothing happened

40:26

When they make their statements neither the Jews or the Christians are certain of their truthfulness Events moved fast and conflicting reports were made and muddled up the real truth could not be discovered except through divine guidance the four except through divine guidance now you need to you need to Understand what that means that means?

40:44

Everything all of history has to be read through the lens of the Quran this is the only divine guidance that we have and So remember it's very very important remember the question that I asked should be

40:59

Raleigh During our debate is there anything in? The New Testament That you would accept as being fully inspired and accurate and his response was anything that is in agreement with and does not contradict the

41:16

Quran and So the Quran becomes the ultimate lens through which everything else is to be viewed so a book

41:24

Written from their perspective by a single man 600 years after the events without direct knowledge of the

41:32

Old and New Testament scriptures in their original languages or even in his own Mother tongue especially if he was illiterate, which we don't know one way or the other the exact extent of his literary capacities, but this book written far away half of over half a millennium later without references to the original sources is

41:53

It becomes the lens that filters out everything that disagrees with it and we have to bow to that and that's that's that's the final authority in all things and That is backwards logically and rationally if it is true that Islam is the continuation of the

42:12

Apostle of the of the prophets if This line is is if it has been Allah all along who has been revealing the same truth to all these people

42:20

Then this alleged final revelation would be able to pass the test of being consistent with that which came before and the reason that Islam must use completely different standards completely different standards in Addressing the

42:39

Old and New Testament and addressing the prophecies of the Old Testament addressing the historicity of the new Completely different standards than it uses for its own holy book is because of the fact that it is impossible to make the

42:52

Quran fit and be consistent with this alleged alleged continual line of prophets that have come before it it is contradictory and so if you're if you are committed for Whatever reasons to the prophet hood of Muhammad and the divine inspiration of the

43:12

Quran Then you must by definition reject you can't do it consistently, but you must reject the inspiration of the

43:21

New Testament and Be willing to utilize a completely different set of standards a completely different form of scholarship

43:29

To attack the veracity in the New Testament than you do in defending the Quran. I say to you

43:34

I've said it to should be early. I say it to everyone The Muslim Cannot defend his faith with the same tools with which he attacks the

43:44

Christian faith the fact that he has to take up one weapon to attack the

43:49

New Testament and then put it down and take up its Opposite to defend his own faith is the clearest refutation of the

43:58

Islamic apologist The Islamic apologist can not be consistent

44:04

He has to speak with two different tongues with two different mouths with two different voices he cannot use one worldview and Say that that obscure terms in the

44:17

Quran are actually relevant to embryology and Demonstrate the inspiration of the

44:22

Quran while at the same time Utilizing the most radical skepticism to attack the

44:29

New Testament. I've recently been listening to On my rides I've been listening to Jamal Badawi going after every single

44:38

Old Testament prophecy cited in the Gospels and in the and in Acts Every single one is wrong.

44:45

Every single one's in error so while they will say that the followers of Muhammad heard everything he said with perfect accuracy and God may

44:58

Preserve this truth so that the Quran is perfect Even though it's not written down during the life of of Muhammad himself and and these are faithful men

45:07

Evidently Jesus couldn't find faithful men they they fail where the companions of the

45:15

Prophet succeed and They the completely different standards between the two

45:20

I mean if if anything similar to the standards that Muslims use to defend the

45:26

Quran if They would just for a moment use the same worldview to look at the New Testament. They would be forced to admit that not only are the two documents completely contradictory from one another but one comes 600 years earlier and If they're gonna be consistent

45:42

There's no way that they could hold the Quran They would have to go look that the New Testament writers.

45:48

They were there you have eyewitnesses and if I'm gonna use the same kind of thinking then

45:54

I'm going to have to Abandon the utilization of this liberal perspective to attack everything in the

46:01

New Testament I just there's just no way to do it, but they won't do that and that of course is the demonstration

46:08

I think for the thinking person of the error of the Islamic apologist and seen likewise here in in In couture of secretive

46:19

The four Gospels which relate the story of the arrest crucifixion death burial and rise of Jesus Christ were all written

46:26

After a lengthy lapse of time which also witnessed the persecution of Christianity and the Christians lengthy lapse of time would he likewise say that there was a lengthy lapse of time between the death of Muhammad and the codification of the

46:39

Quran and Since there were there was battles going on is there a parallel there if not, why not?

46:48

That would be the question in such an atmosphere of secrecy fear and persecution

46:55

Secrecy fear and persecution. Why were these people being persecuted because they were openly proclaiming the message all across the known world

47:03

It is exceedingly difficult to be certain of the truthfulness of the reports that circulated why? Why should we believe this assertion

47:13

Our is there an inconsistency here well of course there's inconsistency here Because if he was going to argue the same thing from his own perspective.

47:19

He'd have to say that the same thing was true of the early Muslims Many other Gospels were written during this period that is not true.

47:28

That's false There were not many other Gospels written in the first century name one. I Mean you know

47:35

Shabir Ali says the gospel Thomas gospel Thomas is from 165 that is not the same time period as the first century

47:43

You again have to embrace the most radical ideas to come up with any of this kind of stuff

47:50

Many of the Gospels written during this period But these four were chosen toward the end of the second century and were given official status for reasons that are not entirely above suspicion

47:57

They remember this is the same fellow who thought we were still fighting the Indian Wars in 1948 so his his historical knowledge is highly questionable and And very very inaccurate one of the many

48:09

Gospels written this period was that of Barnabas Which gives an account of the story of the crucifixion of Jesus that is at variance with the four recognized

48:16

Gospels actually? The gospel of Barnabas is from the 14th century it is a fraud, but Qutub Shows absolutely no discernment whatsoever in Recognizing hit the historicity of sources or the non historicity of sources, and this is the kind of stuff.

48:35

That's most popular amongst Muslims This is the kind of stuff that that gains the most ascendancy is things like the gospel of Barnabas look up look up the gospel of Barnabas online and You'll find that everybody's posting is

48:48

Muslim read the thing it is so grossly anachronistic It's such a bumbling and stumbling fraud that that it's almost humorous to read it truly is

49:00

But there is there is no possible chance That this thing was written contemporaneously with the canonical

49:09

Gospels and yet Muslims accept it and utilize it Why well because they begin with the with the

49:17

Quran and therefore it makes sense that This this must exist it states when the soldiers and and Judas and with them drew near to the place where Jesus was he heard a large number of people coming close in Fear he retreated to the home where all eleven disciples were asleep when the

49:32

Lord saw his servant in danger He ordered Gabriel Michael Raphael and Aurel his messengers to take

49:37

Jesus away from this world The pure angels came down and carried Jesus through the window facing south and placed him in the third heaven in the company of angels

49:45

Who glorified the Lord forever? Judas entered violently the room from which Jesus was raised all the disciples are still asleep at that moment

49:52

God the Almighty accomplished a miraculous thing Judas's face and voice changed so he looked like Jesus We all thought that he was

49:59

Jesus indeed as for him after he awakened us He began to search for the teacher. We were surprised and said you are a master and teacher.

50:05

Have you forgotten us a Scholar sifting this material carefully cannot find any than us a scholar

50:12

Sifting his material carefully cannot find any confirmed account of this remarkable event that took place in the depths of the night before the break of dawn hence no report can be given more credence than another so something in the 1400s and the first century and all that stuff that Can't give more credence to one than the other amazing amazing amazing

50:36

Just just just absolutely amazing. Let me skip here to the end The Quran does not give any details concerning how

50:43

Jesus was raised or whether it took place in body and soul together in this state Of life or in soul after death Nor does it tell us when and where his death took place if at all

50:51

What we know for certain is that they neither killed nor crucified him instead another victim was made to appear similar to him

50:57

This is the only statement of fact that the Quran makes apart from what it mentions elsewhere quoting

51:02

God's address Jesus I shall gather you and cause you to ascend to me that is in surah 355 in neither statement

51:08

Do we have any details about how Jesus was gathered or the nature of his gathering for our part? We do not like to change the method we have followed so far when considering statements and legends

51:16

Which we have no way of proving or disproving and so there is There is good to have so there's a little bit of a background into the issue of the multiple

51:30

Interpretations and the confusion that exists and how could there be anything more surah 4157 just pops into the text

51:40

It seems to me that you know Muhammad is responding against the the Jews there is this background of the idea that a prophet simply could not die in this way and be a prophet as If the the person's the prophets death was and it was indicative

51:55

I mean, I have been reading through Jeremiah and the church services and Sunday evenings in the public reading of the of the scriptures that we have each each service and I Note that just recently before the taking of Jerusalem Jeremiah was in a it was in a pit in a slimy pit basically and Had to be drawn out with ropes because he would sunk down into it and he was going to die in this in this mud -filled pit in essence and I guess a

52:29

Muslim could not possibly believe that could happen to Jeremiah. God won't allow that to happen to prophets Well, that's very different than the

52:35

Judeo -christian view of how people respond to prophets I mean you want a good illustration of where theology matters

52:43

If you don't have that concept of the depravity of man then you don't really have any way of understanding why it is that God could continually send prophets to his people and they stone them and they kill them and they run them through and they they saw them in half as as the book of Hebrews tells us the the

53:02

Muslim looks at that and says no no, no, that's that that's that's not possible for someone who is a was actually a prophet and so There you have the situation

53:13

Surah 4 1 2 7 there's there's no expansions on this. There's a no wonder there's so many different viewpoints because it's

53:21

It's liable to so many different interpretations you want to talk about no certain knowledge

53:27

This is the no certain knowledge It's amazing to me to listen to Islamic apologists attacking the the gospel

53:39

Recording of The crucifixion of Christ is saying well all these contradictions and no one has any certain knowledge

53:46

They have surah 4 1 57 through 1 58 Which is which is liable to all sorts of different proper readings.

53:54

It is not clear in any way shape or form and it comes from 600 years after the events in a different language and somehow we're supposed to take this unclear text written by a man with no first -hand knowledge of the events over half a millennium later and overthrow the multiple attestation not just in Matthew Mark Luke and John but likewise in the

54:24

Apostle Paul in the early church in the eyewitnesses that continued for many decades in the early church

54:32

This entire testimony even recorded later in secular history in the second century you find secular references to this crestus and to Pilate and what takes place all centuries

54:46

Prior to this and we somehow are supposed to throw all of that out based upon a mystic down in the

54:56

Arabian Peninsula 600 years later This this is what we're to do

55:02

How can anyone really? With with with serious, you know with a serious face say yes, that's what you're supposed to do

55:11

You're supposed to throw all this stuff out on the basis of one source That comes 600 years down the road has no connection claims.

55:21

No connection. It's just inspired now you understand why I emphasized

55:27

At the end of the debate with Shabir Ali What if someone comes along? I mean there have been people who have come along and claimed to be great leaders in Islam that Muslims don't follow

55:37

What if someone comes along 600 years after Muhammad they don't speak his language They can't read the

55:44

Quran in Arabic and and in fact have never read the Quran They've only heard

55:49

Muslims talking about Muhammad, but he claims someone comes along 600 years later claims to be inspired of God and you are to Accept his assertions that radically alter

56:05

Everything that Muslims have ever believed how many Muslims are going to believe that how many are going to accept that they'd have to be

56:11

Wide open to that as a possibility if they're going to be consistent because that's what they're asking us to do

56:17

That's the that's the entire emphasis on the from the apologetic perspective of the of the

56:25

Islamic apologist and in this debate We're gonna be listening to like I said it. We'll get started on on On Thursday with it in this debate

56:35

You're going to hear every possible form of Attempt to inculcate doubt

56:44

About the New Testament text and in fact Shabir is going to use a number that I would say contradictory to themselves

56:51

But the whole idea is if you if you just throw out enough possibilities well Maybe Jesus wasn't nailed the cross

56:57

Maybe he was just tied to the cross and he wasn't actually nailed the cross So I don't see any reason why he would have had to have died.

57:05

I mean pilot wondered why he was dead so quickly Totally ignoring the New Testament's own testimony that Jesus gave up his life.

57:13

Well that you know, that's just later That's just later interpretation. I don't have to accept that the the the cut -and -paste method just just pick

57:20

You know this little thing this little thing this little thing Well, I don't really I'm not convinced Jesus would would have died in that situation

57:27

You're gonna hear every kind of attack upon the Gospels upon Paul all these things just to come up with with some means of defending the understanding of one individual from 600 years later

57:48

That that doesn't come out real clearly Unfortunately, it should but that's what you have to keep in mind that you are being asked to accept a single

57:57

Source without any meaningful connection to the original events 600 years later that becomes the authority the overriding authority that you must embrace and Even that one authority as we've seen today does not bring any kind of unanimity of understanding of these issues

58:15

That's what you're dealing with when you're dealing with Islamic Apologetics. Well, thanks for listening today.

58:21

Like I said, we will pick up with that debate on Thursday and we'll dive right into it unless of course the phone lines go nuts or something like that Which is highly unusual and we'll do that Thursday on the dividing line.

58:31

Thanks for listening. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:35

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at p .o.

59:40

Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 you can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

59:47

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks