Accusations from 1998 Refuted and Steve Ray Review Continued

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of alpha to make a ministry and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line.

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We will be continuing Lord willing with our response to review of Steve Ray and his verses

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I didn't see when I was a Protestant which was a majority of the Bible, but Or whatever it was he was but yesterday a blog article was posted by a former

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Jehovah's Witness former reformed now Roman Catholic Individual on the net who listens to this program and I was talking about the last program that we that we did and It Was berating me for not reviewing mr.

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Ray with gentleness and reverence, of course, I consider mr Ray a false prophet not false prophet false teacher and he didn't ask me for a reason to hope that is within me and so we're

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Dealing more with Paul's example of dealing with the Judaizers than anything else

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But hey, you know, he says let's see how well James lives up to that opening. Yeah. Well anyways And then he in essence

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Accuses me gives a reference to a previous article Where he quoted from the pen of a

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Baptist patristic scholar DH Williams now That lends concrete evidence for James own abuse of the early church fathers.

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Now. This actually goes back ten years to a 1998 article which

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I had obtained at the time found it not overly useful the time and had never gotten around responding to it, but we will today on the dividing line and Demonstrate that once again those who seek to engage in this kind of Argumentation generally really fall flat even when they happen to be rather wealthy and can just sit around and do nothing but dig stuff up as certain people in the web can and So there was an

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April 23rd article James Swan and Patrick Madrid in the early church fathers and In essence, he does admit that Patrick Madrid tends to misuse the early church fathers

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But then he he makes a quotation from This DH Williams and now

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DH Williams. Oh, I mean he may be a Baptist I don't have a lot of information about the gentleman I got the article but the article doesn't have a whole lot of information about him either

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Oh, then he teaches at Loyola in Chicago, which of course the Jesuit institution, which of course makes you wonder and starts off taking shots at the likes of John MacArthur and people like that since I'm thrown into the into the

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Group of MacArthur and Nettles and others I figure I'm pretty good Good company here

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But this is what what he says as a result of the renewed attention to evangelical

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Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox relations There is increased interest amongst among evangelicals in the early sources of Christian doctrine and exegetical practices

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This too is certainly to be welcomed though with cautious enthusiasm Since the current reconsideration of the patristic era is not a return to the sources odd fontess

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But governed by a very specific agenda to read the ancient fathers through the lens of post -reformation Protestantism in the search for criteria such as sola scriptura

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Embedded within the religious consciousness of the early church. Well, that's the accusation. We'll find out whether it's accurate or not

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Ancient vindication of such religious ideas would presumably further the claim that Protestants not Roman Catholics are the upholders of true faith

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I would stop just right there. So that's not even what I'm trying to do in any way shape or form I'm probably not gonna be getting the calls for quite some time

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This is gonna take a while. We've got Steve Ray. So I'm really not sure that we're gonna I would You'd be sitting there for at least 45 minutes at the best possibly longer than that So I got a lot got a lot to do here.

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So I should have mentioned that earlier. I apologize Anyway My problem with this immediately is of course my response to Rome Catholicism has always been to demonstrate that its

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Dogmatic definitions are not consistent with the early church and not to try to make the early church into Protestants It's just not the case

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But anyways witness the recent attempts to find a patristic principle of soul scripture in Irenaeus or Athanasius From which the conclusion is reached.

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Then we had a quotation of me and it is a conclusion after many pages of citation of Athanasius Soul scripture has long been the rule of believing

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Christian people even before it became necessary to use the specific terminology against later Innovators who would usurp the scripture supremacy in the church and quote now

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I did not say that everyone in the early church Either practiced understood or was consistent with this, but I did say that it had been a belief

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It was not something that was made up by Martin Luther He continues on is the principle soul scripture historically tenable in the form

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Which is usually defined so the Bible is the only normative source for the Christian faith and practice notice that the

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Williams doesn't even define It correctly and of course, it was defined correctly in the book that he was quoting from He forgot the word infallible, which if it's not there, well, you're not even on the right page

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Do the writings the early church from this principle as will become apparent the very search for such a principle in the writings their fathers

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Is misguided in the light of the early church's understanding of apostolic authority Even if one argues that a biblicism that approximates all scripture can be detected within the patristic age

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It in no way guarantees a Christian doctrine of God or salvation on the contrary a scripture Only principle was found to create greater problems, which would play

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Christianity ever since well, this man's Baptist He's probably not a very good one one way or the other then we have the footnote

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And I tracked the I had looked for the article in my library eventually just went online and downloaded it it is available and The footnotes in reference to me.

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I'm just go ahead and grab the actual article here, which unfortunately is smaller print. So Hopefully the reading glasses that I managed to sneak on here.

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It's gonna work for me him Footnote number 12 page 365 October edition of interpretation journal

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J white soul scripture in the and the early church in Kistler soul scripture of the Protestant position the

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Bible page 53 whites essay exhibits Very limited familiarity with patristic doctrinal history such now

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Let's let's see what the examples are such that it claims Athanasius stood against Liberius Bishop of Rome page 42

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Which I'll read you in a moment and it doesn't say it at all But hey just because he never got one thing right and this other fellow just repeats it ten years later

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Let's give him a chance, you know whereas in fact Athanasius sought the protection of Liberius his successor

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Julius during his exile and he of all the Greek fathers remained the most intimate of Rome After Julius's death in three of two two may all will be true, but has nothing to do with what

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I said There is hardly a case here for proto Opposition between Protestants and Roman Catholics, which of course is another misreading of me

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Moreover it is striking the white argues that Athanasius makes no appeal to unwritten tradition Which I didn't say as we'll see in a moment and yet in the very citation offered as proof of this point

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Oration against the Aryan 329 Athanasius refers to Mary as the Attica's bearer of God and Alexandrian tradition

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Which few Protestants would espouse end quote now just off the top

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Again, this is being used by a Roman Catholic today who on his blog has of course the old tired

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Absolutely absurd Newman quote at the bottom of the page to be deep in history is to say is to be

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Protestant Which I find you know get I mean given given what happened with Newman and papal infallibility and stuff

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Yeah, I find anyone who quotes that To be deep in Newman is to be very shallow in church history

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It's just I just it's just so snobbish. It's it's just it's just ridiculous. But anyway

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Let's let's just back up here and the two examples that are given that demonstrate my limited familiarity with patristic doctrinal history has to do with Athanasius and Liberia's and Then with Athanasius using the term that acos actually used the genitive singular, which

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I quoted actually in the citation itself As if somehow since he uses the

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Attica's that has something to do with his definition of tradition I spent pages Defining from multiple sources exactly what

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Athanasius meant By tradition in his writings that doesn't get mentioned. I really have a feeling that somebody was you know that maybe somebody wrote this article and An editor said, you know, we could use some examples, but you only have till 4 o 'clock this afternoon

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And so you go looking for something and you don't actually read the whole article, but you go Oh, here's something

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I can quote and you throw it in there And you know You might say well give them a little give them a little more slack.

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Well, the problem is I'm sorry How many times now do we have to go over these things

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I remember a alleged the patristics scholar Who wrote an entire article about my article on the

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Council of Nicaea? Based on a footnote and everyone's referenced it and everyone's gave name Everyone's gave original certain citations that still get cited by people to this day

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Of You know when I find these folks who actually start dealing with things in a serious fashion then then, you know

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Maybe I can start to stop assuming the worst but hmm But anyways, so here's here's the two allegations now the the book that we're referring to was a book called

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Sola Scriptura Hey, I just realized hey, look at that See, yeah,

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I'm showing this to rich. There's just two signatures in the front of this copy. I have her John MacArthur and RC Sproul Mine signed anyways,

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I got that sign at the 1995 CBA meeting in Den was a

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Denver Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was Denver Denver 1995 here that was the next year and starting to Says 1995 so I think that's when it was here.

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That was the next year. I think in LA or Texas or wherever it was, but anyhow, I I wrote an article that appears in this book called

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Sola Scriptura and the early Church and it starts on page 27 extends to page 62.

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Is this still available? Do we still carrots? Okay, we still carry this this is available on our on our website 46 and notes

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Numerous citations of Athanasius. Oh my goodness page after page Including the

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Greek from Patrologia Greki, which I pulled from the TLG CD -ROM rather Fully referenced significantly more fully referenced than the

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Williams or than the article that we're looking at here From the interpretation magazine significantly more than then

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Williams provides here and I would just invite anybody to compare the two for yourself if you'd like to do that But let's look at what what

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I actually said and I think you know some people going Yes, it's too deep for me. This is this isn't what

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I want to be listening to while I'm working out or something like that Well, this is a good example of the kind of stuff you find on the net people just throw stuff out

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And as long as somebody wants to believe They grab hold of stuff like this and it's sufficient.

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You know, we don't have to check it out we don't have to look at it for ourselves and This is not only true amongst

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Roman Catholics but have we not been seeing this over and over again and dealing with Islam and What Muslim apologists are willing to believe and Mormon apologists are willing to put out and it's a common thread when dealing

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With these particular these particular issues. So what was the first accusation that we that we had here?

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well How did I exhibit my very limited familiarity with patristic doctrinal history?

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Well such that it claims Athanasius stood against Liberia's Bishop of Rome page 42

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Whereas in fact Athanasius sought the protection of Liberia's his successor Julius during his exile now, how would that be relevant?

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I mean just saying that I said that how would that be relevant? We're not told What was the context of my mentioning

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Liberia's well anybody who's familiar with the history of this time period knows what the context was and The context of course was in reference to Nicea And on page 42 we read no early father answers this question more clearly and with more power than Athanasius for years

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He stood against the combined might of the Empire and the church firmly clinging to the

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Nicene faith in The full deity of Jesus Christ. So what is the context I was dressing the context?

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That was dressing was of course Athanasius contramundum Athanasius standing for the deity of Christ During the

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Aryan resurgence following the Council of Nicea that Aryan resurgence lasting for a number of decades

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When those holding to the Nicene faith were in the small minority, that's where the Latin phrase

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Athanasius contramundum comes from Athanasius against the world For a time here's no listen to what

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I actually said. That's why I wonder if somebody was in a hurry For a time he even stood against the

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Roman see under Liberia's The Bishop of Rome who gave in to the pressures placed upon him

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Truly it was said of him Athanasius contramundum Athanasius against the world now

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What did I actually say? I said that he stood against the Roman Sea under Liberia's I say anything about Protestants or Roman Catholics No, it didn't say anything that at all

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To insert that is to just assume things about me that you could not actually substantiate in any meaningful fashion

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And in fact, I've spent much time Repudiating that kind of misreading so we have a clear bias in the reading of this particular

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Individual in his reading of me But I gave a footnote when it says the Bishop of Rome who gave in to the pressures placed

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Upon him I gave a footnote footnote number 29, which says

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See the discussion of Liberia's an entire concept of papal infallibility in Philip Schaff the creeds of Christendom 1 134 to 188 and his history of the

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Christian Church 3 635 to 636 especially footnote number two.

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Well, guess what? Brought that in with me too So we could take a look at it and see what it was

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I was referring to and maybe Find out if maybe Philip Schaff likewise is as ignorant of early church history as people would like to say

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That I am and so in the discussion Of Liberia's On page 636 of volume 3 footnote number 2.

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We read the following in very small print the apostasy of Liberia's comes to us upon the clear testimony of the most

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Orthodox fathers Athanasius Hillary Jerome's those women etc and Of three letters of Liberia's himself, which

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Hillary admitted into his sixth fragment and accompanied with some remarks Jerome says in his chronicle and then you have given to you in Latin Liberia's tedia victus exili in hereticum provetatum subscribens

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Romam quasi victor in trav in travits Compare his then he gives another reference here, which you're not gonna be looking at.

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He probably subscribed. Here's the The important part here he probably subscribed

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What is called the third sermium formula? That is the collection of semi -aryan decrees adopted at the third council sermon 358

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Hefala from his Roman point of view Knows no way of saving him, but by the hypothesis that he renounced the

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Nicene word homoousius But not the Nicene faith But this in the case is so current a party term is homoousius which

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Liberia's himself afterwards declared the bulwark against all Aryan heresy Entirely untenable the point being that what the footnote indicates is that Liberia's subscribed to what is called the third sermon sermium formula

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The council sermon was an erina Aryan eyes council that compromised the

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Nicene faith and Liberia's signed on to this and hence even with Liberia's Collapsing in the face of the pressure of the

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Roman Empire and The takeover shall we say by Aryans?

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This is another reason why it was Athanasius and himself alone Who stood against these things other than Hillary, but who was quite elderly at that particular point in time?

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So if we want to accuse Schaff of ignorance of these things and I guess I can be convicted of ignorance of these things as well

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But you will note again the accusation quoted by our

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Roman Catholic critic today the first one being that the example being

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It claims Athanasius stood against Liberia's Bishop of Rome and what I actually said was Athanasius of Nicene faith

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Even when Liberia's collapsed and gave proper referencing for that particular

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Information the actual discussion of Athanasius seeking the protection of Liberia's and successor Julius is of course irrelevant to the point that I was making

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It does help him to make his word count for his article, but doesn't actually make for overly meaningful

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Church history at all. So the first accusation is Proven to be false.

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So we continue to look for some kind of meaning here in this footnote There is hardly a case here for a proto opposition between Protestants Roman Catholics Which of course

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I never asserted that there was and wouldn't assert that there was because reading Protestants Roman Catholics in this time frame is sort

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Of silly the point is how the early church fathers addressed the issue of scriptural sufficiency and authority and what's the honest awesome?

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What isn't the honest awesome how they define tradition and so on and so forth. So here is an entire Sentence that again has basically no meaning as far as having anything to do with what

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I said And then finally here's the last example if we're gonna if this is gonna have any meaning and this is the only

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Citation that this particular Roman Catholic provided as clear documentation scholarly documentation that yours truly

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Just don't have a clue what in the world he's doing I quote moreover it is striking that white argues that Athanasius makes no appeal to unwritten tradition yet in the very citation offered as proof of this point

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Athanasius refers to Mary as the Atticus Bearer of God an Alexandrian tradition which few Protestants would espouse now

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I'm gonna read you the exact thing, but before I do so How is that relevant?

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I? Mean let's say that I was actually saying he never makes reference to unwritten tradition rather than what

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I was actually saying as we need To understand what tradition is and how he defines things what Scott boss means and all the rest of stuff

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Which is what I was actually discussing at the time which he doesn't it really show a lot of familiarity with or just didn't care to be accurate enough to mention, but All that stuff aside how does the use of the

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Atticus Vitiate that I mean are you assuming that? Athanasius But there was some sort of an argument about this right now and therefore he's gonna make reference to unwritten tradition to so I Mean there's just no logical connection here

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You can have someone who says I believe only in that which is they say honest us that which is

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God breathed I'm not gonna make reference to unwritten traditions And they can still Make reference to all sorts of unwritten traditions as long as they're not aware of the fact that that's where they're coming from they might think they come from scripture, but what actually is the point that you're making and He doesn't bother to explain that but what he says in essence is that I'm so silly that when

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I'm quoting in Support of the idea that Athanasius makes no appeal to unwritten tradition the oration against the

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Aryans 329 well Let's first go to what I said, then I will read you that specific thing.

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He's making reference to footnote I think it's neither 40 or 33.

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I'm gonna check both of them here because I made numerous references here Yeah, all right here.

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We go Here is the specific now again page after page

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Citations from Athanasius have preceded this I haven't just made this stuff up I have been citing him over and over and over again

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And I'll start on page 47 the rest of the first discourse is taken up with providing an orthodox interpretation of various passages put forth

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By the heretics here again. We have an opportunity of seeing Athanasius's view of authority for this section begins us quote

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But since they allege the divine oracles and force on them a misinterpretation according to their private sense it becomes necessary to meet them just so far as to vindicate these passages and to show that they bear an orthodox sense and that our opponents are in error and Quote and how does

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Athanasius do this does he appeal now listen to listen to what I actually said? Athanasius has just said we're going to engage the texts that these people raise we are going to demonstrate

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That they are misusing the text of Scripture right Now here's what I said, and how does Athanasius do this does he appeal to?

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Unwritten tradition to prove that the interpretation of the heretics is in error No, he exegetes the passages themselves and shows the inconsistencies of the

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Arian interpretations Just as I would reply to a Jehovah's Witness Who would use these same passages?

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Athanasius did 1500 years ago, so what did I say? Actually, I mean again

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This man teaches at Loyola's that makes him a great scholar, but he doesn't read well Because what did

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I say did I say Athanasius never makes reference to unwritten traditions? Even if I were to say that I would

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I would then put it into a context for example to prove dogmatic assertions Where he does we admits he has no scriptural basis or something along those lines

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I would at least if you've even read the article would know I would be very Careful and specific because I spent pages talking about what

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Scoppa scope means to Athanasius and what's authoritative and His use of tradition all the rest of stuff you can take a look at and see for yourself

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But that's not even what's in view here. What's in view here is What is the basis upon which?

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Athanasius meets the heretics in interpreting the scriptures is His source of authority and unwritten tradition, or is it the exegesis of the text itself?

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And of course it is the exegesis of the text itself So I continue on page 48 we press on to the above side section of this discourse as we have already seen

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Context is a vital aspect of citing the fathers and I mentioned in passing It's a vital aspect of citing anybody which would have helped a whole lot here in this instance

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The meaning of the term scope is defined further in the very next paragraph And then here's the paragraph he makes reference to Now the scope and character of Holy Scripture as we have often said is this it contains a double account of the

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Savior that he Was ever God and is the son be cut being the father's word and radiance and wisdom and that afterwards for us

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He took flesh of a virgin Mary bearer of God That's the Atacos and was made ma 'am and this scope is to be found throughout inspired scripture as the

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Lord himself has said search the scriptures For they are they which testify of me.

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There's a citation Included that very translation that uses the Atacos and then continued the scope we are told is to be found throughout

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Inspired scripture obviously therefore it is not something that exists separately from scripture

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Just as I might say the concept of the sovereignty of God is a belief that is to be found throughout scripture Athanasius refers the truth of the nature of Christ in the same way therefore this scope

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Does not qualify for the Roman concept of oral tradition and Athanasius is not found to be violating the doctrine of sola scriptura

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So I was being very careful I was being very clear my language is not difficult to understand

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Back then Soledad Gloria prayed everything in 14 point font. It's easy to read even you can't even say well

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It's just too small font. I didn't see it. It's all right there. How does a scholar at Loyola miss this?

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Don't know Why does a Roman Catholic? Convert today continue to repeat these errors well because he's biased.

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That's why and he just wants to Continue to do these types of things so Here you have the citation and of course when you read the text, it's a if you have the antonycing father's set

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Okay, actually nice in postings for the second series volume for My most read volume by far page 409 that once again, we we have this term scope and Actually, I just read most of it

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I've just a little bit of the background we may easily see if we now consider the scope of that faith which we

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Christians hold and using it as a rule apply Ourselves that the Apostle teaches to the reading of inspired scripture

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For Christ enemies being ignorant of this scope have wandered from the way of truth and have stumbled on a stone of stumbling

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Thinking otherwise than they should think now the scope and character of Holy Scripture as we have often said is this and then it starts

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Talking about what these scriptures throughout the scriptures teach concerning the person of Jesus Christ and so The second accusation made in the footnote.

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Well, I guess or third if you include the Protestant Roman Catholic thing Moreover to striking the white argues that athanasius makes no appeal to unwritten tradition, which

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I did not And yet in the very citation offers proof of this point refers to Marius datacoste bearer of God and Alexander in tradition which few

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Protestants would espouse So have we found anything that passes the sniff test the examination test the citation test

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In the entire footnote provided in interpretation journal ten years ago. Actually, not quite ten years

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October of 1998 The answer is no, we haven't found anything at all.

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And so I will of course Thank the particular Roman Catholic convert who posted this material for the opportunity of once again

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Vindicating the work that we did quite some time ago I doubt that that's going to change the utilization of such things

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But at least we can refer folks to this program in the future and say well If you'd like to hear a response to that that takes that apart

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You can do so right there so With that I turn back to Steve Steve Ray and Wonder if even want to get started here.

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Let me just mention just in passing that we'll take our break That if you didn't catch last week's program the section of Steve Ray's talk we're giving here is where he's talking about how he's going to be

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Presenting a talk which would have been last Saturday. I think Friday or Saturday a

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Saturday at noon. We looked it up Where he was going to be role -playing a Baptist minister and attacking the

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Eucharist and so on so forth and this is part of a Versus I didn't see as a

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Protestant. Remember these guys love to market themselves they love to market themselves as the the

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Pauline Conversion on the road to Damascus type stuff But every time we dig into how accurately then they represent their former faith

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We find some real problems and we'll be looking at some more of that when we come back from our break here on the dividing line

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More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together They are standing shoulder -to -shoulder against social evils they are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and Many evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the

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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality

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32:18

Welcome back to the dividing line. Yes, I do realize actually it is this coming Saturday that the

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Steve Ray thing will be going on. So let's pick up with right where we left off. Well, pretty much right We left off last time listening to Steve Ray.

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This was not by the way as was said on that particular website Catholic answers saying this was a different radio program as a feel theologian.

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Dr. Beckwith would have read and They were still going to be problems now

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Baptists and evangelicals Evangelicals these these types have a way of dancing around these

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Baptist dancing. Come on. What are you talking about? They don't ignore them if they don't just cut them out and put them on the shelf

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Cut them out and put them on the shelf. I have talked with no look again

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Steve Ray likes to present Baptists as the the guys with half the complement of teeth

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The hound dog named Bo married their second cousin handling snakes I mean, that's the idea that he wants people to have of these

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Baptists and they're they're cutting they're cutting stuff out and leaving them On the shelf, but let's face it folks when you talk with Roman Catholics I mean, isn't it

33:27

Carl Keating that over and over again his talks uses the same joke He says look at the person next to you on your right and on your left.

33:34

They've got a Bible. They're not a Catholic Isn't that what he does? Yeah, it is in case you've never heard it go listen to some of his presentations as all time and So I Just go wait, wait, wait a minute who actually is guilty of this kind of behavior

33:52

It's it's Baptist or is it Roman Catholic? How many times have I talked to Roman Catholics educated

33:57

Roman Catholics and Taking them into the text of Romans 8 And ask them.

34:03

Okay, what's justification how you justify justify the baptism? Okay? So here in Romans 8 those who are who are justified

34:11

Will also be glorified can you be baptized and not glorified? Well, yeah, so what do you do with this? And they never even thought of it before they'd obviously never spent any time

34:21

Working through these texts whatsoever. Now are there Baptists like the Baptist that Steve Ray talks about?

34:27

Of course there are But you know, we try to at least you don't deal with You know the high end of stuff once in a while I mean you do have to deal with the low end and if he were saying

34:41

The uneducated Baptists and evangelicals who who don't ever spend any time Actually studying

34:47

Roman Catholic and that'd be one thing. That's not what he does This is this is a mindset you want to present to people and it's you know

34:54

I think Catholic answers back in the 80s sometime, you know just came up with this Set of rules and one of the things is look we need to tell our own people

35:02

We need to develop these what these particular words that just automatically bring up a certain

35:09

Mindset a certain vision to mind and they've been very very very good at doing that And I think

35:15

Steve Ray is sort of just following along here and deal with them some other time because they're uncomfortable and they don't happen to fit our

35:20

Baptist traditions then Then there's ways that they have devised to dance around them and I was pretty good at some of them, too

35:29

But the reality is is that there are verses in the Bible that certainly play much

35:35

Better for the Catholic than they do for the evangelical for it not nothing for just a moment play much better There's just a completely different view of what

35:47

Scripture is working here play much better It's not that well, wait a minute if Scripture is an inspired whole and this is the dividing line

35:57

For so many things if Scripture is an inspired whole

36:03

Then it's not a matter of what plays better. I Mean the scriptures speak

36:10

God is speaking the scriptures. Yes, I mean what was that? You know just just think about Athanasius just about what we're just reading about the deity of Christ, you know 1700 years ago almost

36:23

Was was Athanasius arguing? Well, I think these verses play better in the

36:29

Nicene faith And then there are other verses that play better in the Aryan faith.

36:35

No, that's that's not even that's not even how they Started to look at what Scripture was was all about Very very different view of things right from beginning example when

36:44

Jesus said this is my body He said something very plain there

36:49

He did say something very plain there and what was the context

36:55

Steve? This is this is why Steve doesn't do debates because this kind of surface level stuff just doesn't last long when you have to actually bring it up against someone who

37:05

Doesn't you know isn't married to his first cousin have a hound dog named Bo and have half compliments teeth Because I would point out that he's standing there and It's that time of the year the

37:21

Passover. Hmm. What did the Jews do then why they had they had all these symbols and they had bitter herbs and those bitter herbs were representative of the sufferings that were theirs in bondage in Egypt and everything on the table it

37:43

Represents something else and so you could stand up and you could you could say this is this and this is that and nobody

37:50

There would actually think that you had just been transported supernaturally back to Egypt and so when you look at the thing called context and Then you go and you also have the clear teaching of scripture concerning the nature of salvation you pull this together

38:08

And you know what it's not a matter of scripture passages playing better in one or the other It's just simply a matter of letting the scriptures speak for themselves, which of course we're told you can't actually do leading to People having incredibly extreme views of skepticism as to the

38:27

Ability of scripture to actually say anything except I had to change it when

38:33

I took my I put my Baptist glasses on it says this represents my body

38:40

If I take my Baptist glasses off it read My body Well now are we is it quite possible, but Steve Ray as a

38:53

Baptist was completely ignorant of the Symbolism inherent in the

38:59

Passover meal quite possible quite possible so Would those

39:05

Baptist glasses just be glasses of ignorance sure? Does that give him an excuse for saying what he's saying now no because if he wanted to know the truth now if he wanted to know the other side really has to say and actually accurately represent it he could but well anyway

39:25

There was a certain mechanism for me as a Baptist that forced me to add the word

39:32

Represents in there when parentheses because it obviously couldn't be his body that we could take for granted

39:39

It obviously could not be his body if anybody who has spent at all

39:46

Seriously dialoguing with Roman Catholics and seeing how many times you take them to biblical texts you take them to Romans 5 and Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 and Romans 9 you go to all these places and you've seen them just Overthrow the the context and the direct meaning of the scriptures

40:03

And you've done this for years and years is sitting there listening this going what on earth I?

40:09

Mean that's my experience with Roman Catholics, and he's talking about with Baptists, and that's what his whole

40:16

Texts I didn't see as a Baptist thing is is really all about a piece of bread So when he said this is my body.

40:23

He didn't really mean what he said he was speaking Symbolically and we know that because of our

40:29

Baptist tradition No We know that because of what the Bible actually teaches explicitly and directly

40:38

Concerning not only the cons context the institution of the Lord's Supper, but also what the

40:43

Bible says about the death of Christ So if you're if you again If he'll just start these saying excuse me.

40:50

I want to make something clear. I am NOT gonna be dealing with serious Protestant or even serious

40:57

Baptist theology in this talk. I'm gonna be giving you the lowball stuff I'm gonna be giving you the low -hanging fruit

41:04

I'm gonna be giving you the worst arguments that they could come up with I'm not up to dealing with their real arguments

41:10

I'm just gonna give you the bad stuff if you just do that Then I would have nothing to say here, but he doesn't do that and that's what makes it so misrepresentation

41:19

Here's the question that always you know struck me because so many now listen to what?

41:25

I think this woman's name is Teresa Tamayo or something along those lines, and it's interesting what she says here

41:31

And I don't hear Ray agreeing a whole lot because I think I don't know he'd say it the same way she did

41:37

But she basically she's saying hey wait a minute these Protestants in fact she even makes them They're light years ahead of us in certain

41:43

Bible studies. That's like um Why do you think that is? You think maybe?

41:49

Possibly it has something to do Possibly with the fact that we believe in the sufficiency of Scripture And that you don't have this straightjacket of of tradition.

42:02

You know and stuff like that Could that possibly be it? Protestants and I've learned so much from my

42:07

Protestant brothers and sisters And and I and I love them greatly for the things that they taught me and and the ones that I had in Bible study before I came back to the church were always telling me that I was blessed and there were a few times when

42:17

I worked in evangelical radio where I had some conflicts and most of them are from former Catholics But the Protestant brothers and sisters that I knew were very encouraging to me to really stay in the

42:26

Catholic Church and learn my faith But you know the Protestants have done so much with Bible study and really embracing

42:32

Scripture and teaching it to their people and also really just Embracing the faith and looking at the

42:40

Bible and saying that this is the Word of God and yet Understanding that here is this miracle of the incarnation you know which which sounds crazy to anybody who's not a

42:47

Christian You know unless you have that faith experience because you know that faith is a gift Now let me just stop for a moment a faith of faith is a gift.

42:54

Hey, whoa Incarnation is Incarnation directly taught

43:02

Exegetically in the original languages of the Bible of course it is John 1 14 the word became flesh

43:08

It is taught in multiple places, but it is taught without question in John 1 14 right okay keep that in mind because for this to be parallel to the supper, then you'd have to have the same level of clarity and standing at a at the

43:27

Passover with all these symbols all around you saying this is my body before the incarnate before nothing before the crucifixion is

43:35

Not the same thing so I guess in the miracle of the incarnation that God You know the great

43:40

I am would come to us and lower himself in the form of a man and then sacrifice himself on the Cross if they can believe that What is so hard about believing?

43:49

the bread of life What is so hard about it? He's actually gonna answer this correctly. Yeah, hey

43:55

Steve guys. I'm right He's actually eventually you get around to saying well You know the real reason is they say that the

44:02

Bible actually teaches opposite of that It doesn't teach the concept of transubstantiation it does not teach the concept of a of a repetitive

44:14

Perpetuatory sacrifice that actually never perfects anybody The real reason is because it contradicts the biblical teaching on the nature of the gospel

44:24

It's not oh, I just can't believe that that's too hard to believe That's not the issue that that to me in terms of the disconnect there because they were so great at Getting us to to appreciate the beauty of Christianity and and Christ's sacrifice, and I mean wonderful I mean they've they've been light years ahead of us in a lot of ways in terms of Bible studies now

44:43

Catholic Church is coming Around finally, but I mean I couldn't understand that disconnect, and they were so good at expressing.

44:49

You know the faith You know Christianity, and then not accepting this other miracle in Eucharist part of the reason they do that is because The their evangelical tradition teaches that Jesus is both

45:03

God and man But their evangelical Protestant tradition denies that the bread becomes the body and blood of Christ so the disconnect

45:10

There is their tradition their tradition dictates to them what they're going to believe irregardless of what the

45:16

Bible says they're going to fit the Bible into their fundamentalist Template and it's got a fit and if something doesn't then they'll change the words like mark

45:24

But if you can believe in the miracle the incarnation Why can't you believe in that nudge catch that like Martin Luther?

45:29

He was gonna try to say like Martin Luther I'll bet you anything he was gonna try to go for Romans 328 there

45:35

And she cut him off, and I and I if so I'd be so much fun again debating this man would be

45:42

So enjoyable as long as he had enough time to to get all the all the refutations in because it would just wow

45:50

Be so enjoyable. He's made so many mistakes that you could use and that would be another one

45:56

You could go to all the texts where prior to Martin Luther Sola Fide was used in Romans 320.

46:03

It would be a lot of fun, but anyway How or what we believe as far as a miracle can be it's the fact that in the

46:13

Bible They're convinced they can find the verses that show that Jesus is God and that in the Bible They can show verses that show say that he is man so therefore they have a biblical argument for that There you go, but they feel they do not find the same thing

46:27

It's with such clarity in the Bible about the Eucharist a bingo Yeah, you know when the guy gets it right it took a while to get there and and I would say that he should have reversed the presentation there and certainly the kind of Baptist that he talks about certainly have their traditions and Like we said last time the person who thinks it doesn't have his traditions is the one who's most enslaved to them

46:50

We've been how many times we said that one But finally we have yes

46:56

There's the contrast you can demonstrate the incarnation through the direct and consistent

47:01

Interpretation of the original language of the Bible you can't do that with transubstantiation, and this is my body

47:08

This is my blood doesn't do it Just not impossible, so yeah, they're bingo.

47:14

That's that's there you believe that it's just bread and they Cannot with their

47:19

Baptist glasses come up with a biblical passage that proves that the bread and the wine Change into the body and blood of Christ, so it's really they're common as if Steve Ray can currency what they believe in is the

47:30

Bible Looked at through their glasses or their Baptist tradition And I use Baptist in a general term here because you know the vast majority of the those who are opposed to Catholicism Come from that tradition, and that's the tradition

47:44

I came from so I use that but they don't see that with such clarity in regards to the

47:50

Eucharist And the Bible let me give out some of the verses that you shared with me that we want to look at as we go Into the break and I want to put out the phone number and if you have a question this morning for Steve or Tom Okay, so here's here are the verses on And of course they're using

48:04

Catholic terminology the Eucharist a beautiful word It's been stolen from us I've said many times we have had this word stolen from us because of the the abuse of it within the

48:14

Roman system, but verses on the Eucharist That you never saw as a

48:20

Baptist and yes, I am using the second B in Baptist I guess we're not talking about Baptists here

48:27

We're talking about Baptist and these are things the Baptist don't see because I got those big funny -looking glasses

48:33

I'm talking about the Eucharist of course for a number of reasons first of all because it's a source in some of the Catholic faith

48:38

But also of course in honor of Corpus Christi, which is coming up this weekend, so please if you have a question

48:44

There's some wild pictures on the web and from From over there in in the cold part of the north of Europe and pointed to a reference

48:56

And she'll hear this later But she pointed to some pictures of some some people there in Sweden And they were

49:02

I think it was I think the pictures from Sweden anyways is for Corpus Christi day Body of Christ day and these little kids are carrying along this huge Rosary, I mean

49:11

I'm talking the beads are you know like like half the size of their body And they're carrying on this huge rosary.

49:17

You can go online right now do Corpus Christi ignore, Florida and You'll you'll find all sorts of images.

49:24

I'm sorry Corpus Christi, Texas there's no Corpus Christi, Florida. Oh I've never been there you have is it hot

49:34

It's on the ocean, so it's probably nice. Oh, okay Haven't been there. No one there likes me, but anyways

49:40

Corpus Christi is not a city. It is actually a Celebration and you can find all sorts of pictures and all sorts of really odd stuff because now's the time

49:51

You go to places And you're gonna see people going down the streets and carrying stuff and people don't know what in the world that is they're carrying and Stuff like that, but I perceive if you could stick to the topic of the

50:01

Eucharist 8 7 7 5 7 3 78 Don't call that number right now. No, don't listen to this right now.

50:07

No, no, no No, no, and if there's a question you have about something else in Catholic teaching that you're struggling with Feel free to email

50:13

Steve at his website Catholic Join us again in another program. We're gonna doing a series of these

50:20

There's so much to talk about but this morning we are talking about the Eucharist and we asked you to He was recognized by them in the breaking of.

50:28

Oh, there was I tried to skip it 78 25. Let me read some of these

50:35

That really, you know Struck you as a Protestant when you started to study the Catholic faith and then we'll go to the break and take some phone calls

50:41

But this first one I'm trying to think back It's been a long time. The last the last debate on this subject was 1999 yeah, because it was that was the nasty one with some

50:56

Jenna's the really nasty one on the mass all of them that we've done before that were before 99 so it would been 92 and 99

51:06

January 91. I think were the mass debates. There we go. Um, I I Haven't gone back and listened to them

51:16

I don't think this first one has ever appeared in any debate of done if it has I've just forgotten it

51:21

But this this first one I heard I'm like, um, what? Alright, this is a

51:26

Luke 22. This is my body which is given for you do this in remembrance of me again Luke 22

51:32

We knew that The road to a mass they began to relate their experience on the road and how he was recognized by them in the breaking of The breath, by the way, let me just mention this and some people

51:43

And I cut it the wrong time there, but some I was just thinking, you know yeah, I've explained this one before but one of the the points to keep in mind is that that the sacrifice hadn't taken place yet when

51:56

Jesus said this is my body and What you need to understand is that that Rome's theology

52:03

Seriously, and this is this is the old -time theology I mean again, you'll find liberals who you know, think all this stuff is just you know for spiritual education doesn't really have a whole lot of meaning anymore, but but the old theology is that that Jesus ordained the

52:19

Apostles as priests when he said do this use the imperative and So to do this you have to be priest so that's where they become ordained as priests and that the actual miracle of transubstantiation takes place at that time and So through the sacramental power even before the cross and that's where they go into the you know, the sacrifice is eternal

52:43

It's an eternal event. So it didn't that you know, you don't have to worry about when it took place in time and So on so forth and a lot of folks go excuse me, but yeah, that's that's how you explain that and then

52:54

I'm gonna have to back this up because I I interrupted it right at the wrong time, but here's the road to Emmaus Assertion break and take some phone calls.

53:03

Alright, this is Luke 22. This is my body Which is given for you do this in remembrance of me again

53:08

Luke 22 19 The road to Emmaus they began to relate their experience on the road and how he was recognized by them in the breaking of the

53:17

Bread, that's Luke 24 35 Okay So Jesus broke the bread that's what you do when you eat and You break the bread and distribute it and this has something to do with the

53:32

Eucharist and transubstantiation Exactly. What is that again? You know,

53:40

I I guess some you know Medieval mystic, you know might have had a vision or something and connected that or something

53:45

But in any meaningful reading of the text exactly, how is that? I Missed it that that proves something about the

53:54

Eucharist the the disciples had been specifically kept from recognizing the risen

54:00

Lord and Isn't it interesting that when the disciples recount this they don't say anything about Eucharist.

54:07

They don't say anything about Transplantation they don't say anything about that why they say did not our hearts burn within us when he opened the scriptures to us

54:18

Not the unwritten traditions or any of the rest of this stuff, but we don't see that one

54:24

I wonder if that has to do with something called Roman Catholic glasses possibly

54:30

John 654 of course part of the Eucharist discourse he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise him up on the last day

54:39

Yes the Eucharistic discourse which of course has all that stuff about the sovereignty of God and salvation and how he perfectly saves a particular people given to him by the

54:49

Father in eternity past and we turn that into something about a completely different subject and Interestingly enough the one that is cited there is

55:00

The very text that talks about raising him up on the last day Who does he raise up on the last day those who partake in a particular ceremony or those who were eternally?

55:11

given by the Father to the Son Who are drawn by the Father to the

55:17

Son who are committed to the Son for their salvation? Hmm seems like there was something that came before this

55:25

That might be the most important element of the John 6 passion passage, but anyway

55:31

All right, and this is John 6 63 It is the spirit who gives life the flesh prophets nothing the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life

55:41

Yeah, which? Yeah, there you go

55:47

Here's a good example of verses I never saw while wearing my Roman Catholic tradition glasses and what they actually said in the context in which

55:57

They're originally written in the Old Testament the prophet Malachi chapter 1 verse 11 for from the rising in the

56:04

Sun to its setting my name is great among the nations and in every place incense is offered to My name and a pure offering for my name is great among the nations says the

56:14

Lord of hosts Malachi chapter 1 verse 11 1st Corinthians and I'm watching

56:22

I'm watching somebody through the window here going why? What why? You didn't you didn't catch that one on the is that just a defense of using incense no no no no no no no no no

56:34

No, no, and we don't we're so close to running out of time here It's hard to go into the whole thing, but I'm trying to remember

56:42

Okay, I know this was on Long Island because I remember the way the room was laid out And it was a bait with Mitch Packwell, so this would be the priesthood debate

56:51

Remember the priesthood debate we had a little little old ladies down front who were sort of verbally verbally

57:00

Verbally and oh yes, yes, and oh yes, I'm watching someone through the glass here who's

57:06

Reiterating what took place anyways one of those little old ladies who were sort of quietly verbally participating and gesturing and everything else

57:14

During the course of debate that's why you gotta get the DVD because once in a while you can catch that kind of stuff But it's not very often sort of behind it we have to do a behind the scenes before I get sold

57:24

I forget all this stuff and Now what about this debate? Oh, yeah, I remember when that happened type of thing

57:29

That'd be I think a lot of people would find that to be interesting but one of those little old ladies asked that very question used the

57:37

Malachi text about Well, isn't this a prophecy that there's going to be a pure offering?

57:44

Offered around the world and this is fulfilled in the offering of the priest upon the altar of the Roman Catholic Church That's what's talking about my response was

57:52

Well, I think that if we look at what the New Testament says about the fact that all believers are priests and that the offering

57:59

We make is out of our lives It's fulfilled in the kingdom of Christ in his church throughout all the world not a concept of transplantation upon the

58:06

Roman altar So that did come up But it wasn't a main part of the debate because the subject of course was the subject of the priesthood and not anything else

58:14

But I am 16 minutes and 34 seconds into the sound file

58:19

I've got here and still we haven't finished it, but we're getting pretty close on all of that stuff and Let's see here.

58:28

Actually, I think next week is just fine Lord, well, I'm supposed to I actually

58:33

I don't think it's gonna be for almost a month until we miss any dividing lines come to think of it, so We'll be here.

58:41

Hopefully you will be by the way some interesting announcements coming up regards to guests on the dividing line and upcoming debates, so It's gonna be exciting.

58:50

We'll let you know as soon as we can. See you next Tuesday. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

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