End of Year Catch Up on Developments in the "Trashworld" Controversy

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December 30, 2024

The addition of Catholic speaker Calvin Robinson to the line up at the the Defeating Trashworld Conference in April has stirred up a lot of controversy, and properly so. Stephen Wolfe chimed in today with a tweet about his viewpoint on issues, so we really had to take some time to consider where this is all going, and what it all means. And I got distracted by my Apple Watch a few times. Just saying!

00:28: Well, greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line, probably, probably the last program of the year since tomorrow's
00:37: New Year's Eve. But who knows? I mean, lots of stuff happening today, maybe there'll be something that needs to be done tomorrow.
00:45: We'll, we'll see. I don't know that I can't remember the last time I wore this particular sweater.
00:52: It's been a while. It's not super bright. It's got lots of muted tones in it, but I'm enjoying it.
01:00: Oh, yeah, Rich, Rich, who continues to experience great koovy and koogee envy, koovy -engy, that's interesting.
01:10: Anyway, says it looks OK. So there you go. OK, so good old,
01:19: I have to, I have to mention. Good old Fred Butler. I'm going to start off with Fred Butler.
01:26: I was going to start with it, but it just popped up on my screen. It was five, it was five hours ago. But uh -oh,
01:32: Fred, yes, Fred Butler was responding to Michelle Leslie and said this.
01:44: Let me give you a quick rundown. The CN crowd, Christian Nationalist crowd, is punching themselves in the face because they have chosen to believe malicious conspiracy theories about Jews and Israel.
01:55: And Doug Wilson and James White, bless them, are calling them out and trying to grab their arms to prevent them from punching themselves in the face.
02:03: But they're like, we like punching ourselves in the face, you mid -Eva boomer cons.
02:09: We call on the blue laser -eyed Anon army to join us in punching themselves in the face.
02:15: That's where things stay at the moment. You know, for comedy to be funny, there has to be an element of truth somewhere in there.
02:30: And there is. I'm going to work backwards here because there is, there's just so much.
02:41: The last, I mean, I don't know how many, I have about 20 screen caps open on my screen here and I'm not sure how
02:52: I'm going to be able to keep up with all of them. Plus a few text files, a few transcripts of videos, and I don't know.
03:01: There's so much stuff here. I just got a call from a dear friend, actually, who was upset by all the nastiness that he was seeing flying my direction.
03:12: And I think I surprised him by how non -upset I was. Basically, I had to explain, it's been this way for months now.
03:20: It's been this way since the summer, pretty much. And I can't be overly concerned about the people outside of my group that are doing that.
03:30: You know, Mormons, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, they do that all the time.
03:36: So it's just like, get used to it. I have to be a little bit more concerned about the people that are close to home that are, you know, maybe pastors in churches that we've spoken in or had association with and stuff like that.
03:49: That's a little bit more on my mind. But okay,
03:58: I guess this was this morning sometime. I posted it in one of the
04:05: Signal things. I don't have enough screens. I literally have to have a third screen to keep up with all this stuff right now.
04:14: But Joel Webben posted the following, you know,
04:21: I suppose maybe I should, even though I don't know that I can be able to find all this stuff, but it'll be pixelated.
04:33: It's funny how some of them aren't and some of them are. And I'm not exactly, well,
04:39: I imagine it has to do with the size of the thing when you screen cap it,
04:45: I guess. And Friend of the Ministry, I'm not sure I told you about this, but Ken, I said on the air at some point recently, man,
04:57: I wish there was some way that I could search screen captures for text, because you have to OCR it to be able to do that.
05:09: And he sent me a link to a program that you put all your screen caps in a certain folder and it scans all of them and indexes them.
05:19: So you throw in someone's name and every tweet you've ever captured from them in time order,
05:28: I think from recent downward, right there on your screen. That's I'm sorry.
05:36: That's very dangerous. Well, hey, everybody's got, you know, and it's it and it's his fault that everybody's got all my information out there.
05:44: So it's only fair that I get to have somebody else's information out there, too. Anyway, so here's the treat.
05:53: I recognize this is difficult to fathom. Wow, I clipped this only four minutes after it was posted.
06:01: But in 2025, I'll be hosting a conference that is not about reform theology.
06:06: But fear not, I'm confident the 4659th conference on the five solos will be hosted by someone and it's likely right around the corner.
06:16: Now I'm going to ignore the last part, which I sort of wonder about a little bit, because I'm certain that Joel has had such conferences himself.
06:27: The reason that this has this was posted is very, very, very, very obvious.
06:36: What's going on is over the past couple of weeks, there have been some major developments in the reformed online world,
06:53: I guess we should say. One was a trip by the lead elders from Ogden up to Moscow to have a conversation with,
07:07: I believe, seven gentlemen from the church, you know, there in Moscow.
07:14: And I was not a part of that, of course. I have only seen maybe three, four paragraphs at most of discussion of what took place.
07:29: But it seems fairly clear in the week or so since that happened that there was no rapprochement.
07:37: There was no healing of the divide.
07:45: And the folks in Ogden posted a three and a half hour video.
07:56: Couldn't they have used AI to summarize that? That would have been helpful. But a three and a half hour discussion of a lot of things, but especially
08:09: White Boy Summer, the Holdens, all sorts of stuff like that.
08:16: And then a relitigation of the Tobias Riemenschneider, Joel Webb and stuff, which
08:23: I don't even know why they bothered with that. They don't know anything about it. They weren't a part of the conversation.
08:28: They don't know anything more than anybody else does. I know far more about it than they do. I know far more about the backgrounds than they do, about the pastoral issues involved than they do.
08:35: So I don't know why they're relitigating that, but everybody does, I guess, for some reason or another, including all sorts of people who don't have any idea what they're actually talking about.
08:47: But they like to repeat things ad nauseum. So anyway, so you had that taking place.
08:56: And so everybody on this program who's been listening to this program, or maybe you just tuned out and we talked about this stuff, sorry, you can't dodge movements that are not only fundamentally dividing the
09:14: Reformed world of believing Reformed people, but you also can't dodge movements that are infecting all of our local churches with ethnic animus and divisive conspiracy thinking.
09:34: When it is going to divide families and churches and cause pastoral issues, you can't just go hide and hope it's going to go away because it'll fester and grow and it gets real ugly.
09:48: And in the final analysis, when the dust all settles and someone says, who sought to be consistent, who sought to stand firm?
10:03: I want us on that list. I really, really do. So we will see how that ends up turning out.
10:11: But so a couple of things came together.
10:18: But what's really, really interesting here is the reason I believe that Joel Webben posted this this morning.
10:27: I recognize this difficult fathom, but in 2025, I'll be hosting a conference that is not about Reformed theology.
10:34: Well, this is the Defeating Trash World Conference. And you remember that a few months ago, there was great controversy because my fellow elder,
10:46: Jeff Durbin, for those who are confused about these things, I am a pastor at Apologia Church.
10:53: I am the only elder who is not employed by Apologia Church as a full -time pastor, because I've got
11:02: Alpha Omega Ministries. I've been doing this for a long time. And so I'm the weird guy.
11:09: But I preached last night. You can go to Apologia's YouTube channel and see a sermon
11:16: I preached last night on here I raise my eva -nature. Huh?
11:24: Well, I love, we didn't even sing the song. I didn't get in touch with the music guys in time. And so we didn't even sing the song.
11:32: But I did use that as my starting point. Eva -nature, here I raise my eva -nature, stone of help.
11:38: It's not Ebeneezer, has nothing to do with Scrooge, has nothing to do with Dickens. It's in 1 Samuel 7,
11:44: Samuel places this stone of help commemorating where Yahweh had helped
11:49: Israel against the Philistines. And so we made application, New Year's is coming up. Stone of help in the past, stone of help in the present, stone of help in the future.
11:58: Just exhorting people to be thankful for God's grace in the past and having appropriate goals in the future as we look at New Year's.
12:09: So yes, I do travel a lot. But when I'm home, I preach a lot.
12:16: And we'll be, for example, we have a dinner with the elders thing that we do with various deacons groups of families.
12:26: We'll be doing that Thursday night. Kelly and I will be out there and meeting with folks and having yummy Carolina's Mexican food with our folks.
12:36: They take care of all that stuff for us. And so yeah, I'm a part of Apologia.
12:41: And so Jeff was, Jeff had been asked to speak at the
12:48: Defeating Trash World conference a long time ago before a lot of the developments that have taken place.
12:55: Specifically before a lot of the nasty stuff that Stephen Wolfe has to say about me and our, of course, our perspective on church history,
13:08: Reformation theology, so on and so forth at Apologia Church. So when the initial graphic had been put up, there was
13:17: Jeff over on the left -hand side, along with Stephen Wolfe and Isker and Eric Kahn's going to be there,
13:27: Brian Salve, Joel Webbin, I'm sorry, Dave Reese could be there.
13:36: And so big controversy when Jeff contacted
13:43: Joel and said, yeah, I'm not going to do that. I don't think it would be appropriate given the rhetoric that Stephen Wolfe puts out regularly about my fellow elder.
13:56: And so he withdrew from that. But again, he had agreed to that long before all this stuff had started coming in.
14:05: And then there was the statement, well, we may have somebody else coming. We may have a big name coming.
14:10: We'll let you know. We'll let you know. Well, whose face is now where Jeff's was? A fellow by the name of Calvin Robinson.
14:23: Now, so the reason I believe that Joel Webbin posted this is that I am sure he is taking tremendous heat right now.
14:38: A lot of people writing in going, what's going on here?
14:45: Why? I first saw Calvin Robinson. He had big, huge afro at the time with the clerical collar during all the
14:58: COVID stuff, I think as early as 2020, late, probably late 2020, somewhere around there, maybe early 2021.
15:07: And he was saying very conservative things.
15:13: He was saying stuff that's pretty unusual in the
15:18: UK, these days anyways, where the
15:24: Church of England was founded on, at least post -reformationally, on the via media, the middle way.
15:32: So when you find someone who at the time, as I understood, it was associated with the
15:37: Church of England, when you find someone, well, sadly, you don't find a lot of people in England who are part of the
15:45: Church of England that are taking meaningful stances for freedom against tyranny. I mean, the
15:52: UK is just collapsing on that level. And so it's like, oh, that's cool. That's nice to hear.
15:58: It's not like I started digging into his stuff or anything like that. It's just, oh, here's someone who seems to be saying some good things.
16:07: So he sort of fell off the radar for a while. Once in a while, I might see something. And then he popped back up recently and evidently went up to Moscow.
16:20: I did not know about this. And was on a Doug Wilson and Friends episode, which
16:28: I did watch, I think, early last week, if I recall correctly. And as I understand it, had recorded a
16:39: Man Rampant episode that I don't think has aired and may not. Then stuff started happening, and people started asking, well, where is this guy now?
16:53: Because you start following any of his tweets, and you see some interesting stuff.
16:59: The assumption I had had was, okay, Church of England, hey, you've got some great
17:07: Anglicans down in Sydney, Australia. You've got J .C.
17:13: Ryle in the past. So sure, there are true, rock -ribbed, justification by faith, soul scripture type
17:21: Anglicans out there. So you sort of assume maybe that's what it's about. Then you start looking at, and the fellow
17:32: I'm talking about just tweeted to me, have fun with that. Okay. I had just responded to a, at least he had gotten back to me today.
17:42: He had just completely dismissed me a question I'd asked him yesterday. So I wrote back to him, and all
17:48: I'm seeing back is have fun with that. So I'm having fun with that. I don't get the feeling he's into doing in -depth responses to any kind of meaningful criticism.
17:58: But anyway, so what triggered all this stuff is, okay, he goes up to Moscow, says some interesting stuff, and then all of a sudden he's the replacement speaker at defeating
18:23: Trash World. Well, again, if he's a conservative
18:28: Anglican defender of freedom against tyranny, okay, interesting, but all right.
18:39: But then people will start, now he's on us, they start looking into his tweets and things. And on the 27th, so three days ago now, there's a young guy, it's at Catholic IZM1, Anthony is his name.
19:02: And what this guy does is he posts tweets that are real short, extremely controversial, and are just simply meant to get engagement.
19:13: I guess that's how you make money on Twitter now.
19:21: My account is not monetized, so I don't know. But evidently, if you get people retweeting you or liking you, and the bigger the accounts are that do so,
19:34: I guess the more money you make or something. I read something about it, but don't have any real experience in it, so I don't know.
19:42: But there are people making big bucks on YouTube, on Twitter, and stuff like that.
19:48: And as normal, we being the master marketers that we are, we're living on the bleeding edge.
19:59: That's us. Yeah, anyway.
20:06: So this guy, Anthony, posted the following. I guess
20:12: I might as well put that one back down here.
20:19: And so here's Protestia. I have a couple of different versions of this now.
20:26: But there's Anthony. The thief on the cross was saved because Mary prayed for him at the foot of his cross.
20:36: The thief on the cross was saved because Mary prayed for him at the foot of his cross. Now, I'll be honest with you.
20:45: I had never heard anyone ever say that. Now, maybe
20:51: I've seen it in the glories of Mary by Liguori or something.
21:00: I don't know. But I don't have any recollection of ever having heard anybody say this before.
21:06: I've never seen it used as an argument. You know, I wrote a book almost a quarter century ago now.
21:15: Well, more than a quarter century ago now. That was 1999. So yeah, 25 years ago. On the subject of Mary, another redeemer, question mark.
21:26: Because the push was on to have Mary defined dogmatically as co -redemptrix, co -mediatrix, co -adjutrix for the people of God, and so on and so forth.
21:36: And so I've read a lot of Miravalli and all those people pushing that kind of stuff. And you would think that if there was, in fact, sorry,
21:52: I'm not totally used to the most awesome piece of tech
21:58: I've ever seen in my life. And it's important stuff.
22:04: I mean, that was Doug Wilson. Give you the watch? No, I'm not giving you the watch. It's my new
22:10: Apple Watch. I've never had an Apple Watch before. And it's just astonishing what this thing... I can adjust my hearing aids on my watch while starting my truck remotely.
22:22: Don't make me take that away from you. I've got a few of these in here, okay?
22:30: And I've got my gladiator sword. And I just saw Gladiator 2, and it was in there.
22:38: So don't even think about it. Some of those crusader guys are a little jealous that I have an actual
22:48: Maximus gladiator sword back here. But anyway, it is.
22:55: It wasn't the prop, but it was based on the movie prop. What was I talking about?
23:00: Moses was in Bullrushes. So I have a lot of discussions going on right now about this stuff online.
23:13: And that's why I'm getting notifications and stuff like that. And it's distracting me.
23:19: So I've seen a lot of argumentation to try to argue that Mary is co -mediatrix.
23:29: Her role as intercessor and stuff like that. I had never seen this one. May have missed it.
23:35: It may not have just registered as strongly as it should have. I don't know. But I'd never seen it.
23:42: And when I did see that, I almost responded to it. But there's a lot of stuff that I don't...
23:53: You just have to let it pass. There was a day when I would have been up until three o 'clock in the morning, fighting all that stuff.
24:00: But you can't do it. But what happened was what you saw on the screen just a moment ago, which
24:08: I'm sure Rich will put back up now that I'm mentioning it. But Calvin Robinson replied to that tweet by saying,
24:20: Based and Mary Pilled. Now he tends to do really short stuff.
24:27: And the problem is when you do really short stuff, then everybody wants to ask you what you mean by that. And you may or may not get a response.
24:41: But here is this fellow who's now speaking at the Defeating Trash World conference with a bunch of Calvinists.
24:52: And I start looking through some of his stuff, and I start realizing this guy hasn't... He is super ecumenical.
25:00: He has moved from the Church of England to the
25:06: Nordic Catholic Church, sort of a Scandinavian Old Catholic type thing.
25:16: He's currently, I think, in Michigan. And my understanding is the church that he is ministering in there is mixed.
25:26: It's not fully associated with some of these groups.
25:31: I don't know. I do not claim to have expertise in all of the schismatic groups or less than full union groups or whatever that are or are not in submission to Rome for whatever reasons.
25:55: I don't know. But he's in the United States now. But here he says, this statement is baste and merry -pilled.
26:06: Now, a lot of us were like, okay. And so what I did...
26:11: Go ahead and take that down. What I did is I wrote him a perfectly calm, kind, nobody was...
26:31: And I basically asked him, okay, here's what
26:41: I put. I quoted what I just showed you on the screen. And here's what I wrote. Rather than doing a quote reply, as I would normally do,
26:48: I would like to give Calvin Robinson the opportunity to explain this statement first. The thief on the cross was saved by the granting of forgiveness by Jesus as he gave his perfect life upon Calvary's tree.
27:00: There is nothing in scripture that would lead anyone to think Mary had anything to do with it. There is nothing in the early church that would lead anyone to believe
27:07: Mary had anything to do with it. The dogmas that developed a millennium down the road and even more have no connection to the apostles.
27:15: In fact, the account Catholicism 1 is known for posting one -off, often outrageous statements, and then basically saying, oh, why did you think
27:26: I meant that? Rather than actually engaging seriously. So I would seriously like to ask C .R.,
27:31: Calvin Robinson, what he means by based and Mary -pilled. That's all
27:38: I wrote. That's not nasty. That's straightforward.
27:46: Honest question. Honest question. And the response that I got was two sentences long.
27:59: It says, thankfully, I do not answer to you, and then my host, L .U. Throy, as free men from Peter's writings.
28:08: I will pray to our lady for you. May the queen of heaven enlighten you.
28:19: I responded, well, of course, I did not claim that you do. That is, have to answer to me. However, this venue is called
28:25: X or Twitter, and people at times engage in dialogue and discussion here. The claim to the thief on the cross was saved through Marian intercession as a bold one, but one that lacks all biblical and historical foundation.
28:38: So how is it based? Based on what? Are you not willing to explain your assertion? And then
28:45: I believe I did a follow -up to that.
28:51: You know how hard it is to find these things in here, especially once they've got hundreds and hundreds of replies, and so it's not pulling up.
29:06: But lots of folks saw this, and lots of folks were really disappointed because they were asking the same thing.
29:14: What does he mean? How can anyone substantiate this?
29:25: But it didn't look like there was any answer coming from them. So I think what has happened is
29:33: I then basically, I think earlier today, yeah,
29:42: I quoted from him. He has said that the reformation was a bad idea.
29:54: That it damaged the church. He clearly has no respect for, he calls
30:00: Lutheran Calvin heretics, has no interest in what they had to say about anything.
30:07: In fact, I've got a screenshot here. Drag it over here.
30:19: So somebody had said something about Calvin and Christmas, and his response, by the way, his picture is him shaking
30:28: Trump's hand. Ask John Calvin what he did for Christmas.
30:34: He might not like his answer. His answer is, I do not ask anything of that heretic. Referring to Calvin.
30:43: And someone else said, that's not very Catholic of you, and he said, it is incredibly Catholic to recognize John Calvin as a heretic.
30:49: You must be confused. You mean he's not very reformed? So, he's not a friend of John Calvin whatsoever.
31:01: And not a friend of Martin Luther, either. I have somewhere around here, yet another screenshot where he's saying that.
31:14: And then you had this. I believe this was actually about 14 hours ago, maybe a little bit more than that.
31:21: Here you have him posting a picture of Mary and Jesus, and it says, England is our lady's dowry.
31:30: All will not be well again in our country until we return to her immaculate heart. And then a
31:39: Latin discussion of the immaculate heart of Mary. Now, again, people initially tuned into this guy because he was saying conservative things in a non -conservative context.
31:59: Great. More power to him. But as I wrote to him only a matter of minutes ago, here's what he had said.
32:15: He said, happy to have conversations about the Catholic faith, particularly about the undivided church of the first millennium.
32:21: We should pray for a united church. Not too interested in going around in circles in the same contemporary debates
32:27: Protestants constantly have amongst themselves. He doesn't view himself as a Protestant, obviously.
32:33: Now, he's an old Catholic. He's no longer. But then again, Church of England. Okay. I have zero interest in John Calvin.
32:42: Sorry if that offends you. I think he and his contemporaries did immeasurable harm to the body of Christ. Might I ask, whilst we are conversing, why you are making a habit of tweeting about me on a daily basis?
32:53: Does it get decent traffic? What is the engagement like? There's a little shot in there, as I'm sure you noticed.
33:01: So just before he came on the air, I was responding. First, I think many people were very disappointed that you dismissed my honest question two days ago about why you would promote the idea the thief on the cross was saved through Mary's prayers.
33:14: I wonder, are you aware of anyone in the first thousand years of church history who taught the same thing? Second, don't you think the term the undivided church is a bit optimistic given the many, many divisions that existed over the centuries, the many theological battles that were waged, and most importantly, the influx of non -apostolic thought that became very important to the developing theology in both
33:34: East and West. You complimented someone recently for saying that you do not sound very
33:39: Protestant. You likewise said you would not disagree with Tyler Marshall on anything theological. I assume this would mean you reject sola scriptura, as he does, and reject sola fide, as he does, and embrace transubstantiation, the mass purgatory indulgences, and the like.
33:56: I can tell you have zero interest in John Calvin and seem to have quite a heavy animus toward Reformed theology as a whole, which is why there is a sudden interest in your commentary.
34:05: The defeating trash world conference in April was, initially anyway, a thoroughly Reformed undertaking with Reformed speakers.
34:12: So many people are asking what your participation means. Would you, for example, say that a vital part of defeating trash world would be dedicating the world to the
34:22: Immaculate Heart of Mary? Is that a fair question? Of course it's a fair question.
34:28: It's not just a fair question. It's a necessary question. In fact, you know who should be asking him this question?
34:37: Joel Webben should be asking him that question. And Joel, if you don't ask him that question, and you know it, you should be laughing right now.
34:53: You need to be asking him that question. Let me repeat it. Would you, for example, say that a vital part of defeating trash world would be dedicating the world to the
35:02: Immaculate Heart of Mary? Because that's what many Roman Catholics are saying today.
35:08: I see it all the time. That's part of Marian devotion. I, of course, believe
35:16: John Calvin did immeasurable good, not only to the body of Christ, but to the nation you now live in. But the nation you now live in is based upon Western values deeply steeped in his thought and doctrine.
35:27: It's true. Very true. Finally, I believe I first mentioned you in response to your supporting the novel idea of the thief and the cross being saved through Mary's prayers about four days ago.
35:39: I have been on Twitter since 2010. So references to you might constitute 0 .00001
35:47: % of my Twitter traffic. I will be discussing your comments and dividing line in about 12 minutes, actually.
35:54: And of course, that's what we are doing right now. And as I said,
36:00: I got a four -word response. Have fun with that. No response to all the questions.
36:09: Nothing about the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Just have fun with that. So in seeing how he interacts online,
36:17: I've never seen any serious interaction online. So he gets you to waste your time, but then he'll give you this type of have fun with that type response and nothing more.
36:29: And so you're left going, okay, well, all right.
36:36: Because every question I've asked of him is absolutely fair and absolutely necessary.
36:44: And so what I think is happening, I think the reason that Joel Webben posted what he did was he's getting people who've already signed up or signed up before he,
36:56: Calvin Robinson, was signed up. And they're going, this doesn't sound like what it was advertised to be.
37:10: Because when you think about what Joel said,
37:18: I recognize this is difficult to fathom, but in 2025, I'll be hosting a conference that is not about reform theology.
37:23: Now, if all that is saying is that we're not going to be talking about the five points or the solas, if that's all that's saying, who's going to argue that?
37:39: But let's be honest, this is coming right now at this time because there is a man speaking at the conference who thinks the
37:50: Reformation was a mistake. Who clearly holds reform theology in detestation, considers
37:58: Martin Luther and John Calvin to be heretics. And it is an absolutely honest question to go, isn't this sort of confirming what that crazy guy in the sweaters has been saying all along?
38:18: Now, you've raised your microphone, so you're distracting me. Chris Hunholtz just posted in our chat an interesting point.
38:26: Is he wearing his elf outfit that I sent him for Christmas? I can't see what he's wearing. Oh, okay. So he says,
38:32: I actually had someone tell me that Robinson's presence is not problematic because this is not a theological conference.
38:41: Hmm. Exactly. Exactly. There's the point, okay?
38:48: And here is where the division is wide. And everyone in this,
38:56: Algo can tell you the day I first started saying this. Or everybody with access to the transcripts page can do this.
39:04: I've been saying this for a while now. The division is between those who believe in the
39:16: Puritan hope, and everybody on the other side used to, what's the Puritan hope?
39:23: That all the nations will come to Jerusalem seeking God's Torah, his law.
39:30: That the father will give to the son the nations as his inheritance. That Psalm 2 and Psalm 110, quoted all the time in the
39:37: New Testament, actually have fulfillment in Christ. And that Christ will be satisfied in seeing his offspring.
39:45: He's going to have the nations, okay? That requires regeneration. And Stephen Wolfe rejects it.
39:53: He rejects it. He's rejected it openly. In fact, here it is.
40:02: Today, he wrote a lengthy tweet. And he talks about he and Doug, and writing the book.
40:16: And he talks about, it's interesting to see this from his side, all right?
40:24: Because again, fully documented history here. The last two sweater vest dialogues we've done.
40:32: Still like to do some more, but haven't. Now's the time to do it, because I've got sweater vests. And it'll be,
40:39: January is coming. That's normally the coolest time of the year here. And I'm seeing that next week, the rest of the country is going into the deep freeze.
40:50: We'll be in the sun. It'll be about 68 degrees. It's what, 74 today? That's another thing.
40:55: By the way, by the way, on my watch, I have the current temperature for my personal weather station at home, and the weather ranges up there in the upper left -hand corner.
41:10: And you know what the temperature in my backyard is right now? 72 degrees. So all of you in Michigan, Alaska, 72 degrees in my backyard right now.
41:22: And while you all are freezing to death next week, it'll probably be 68 degrees in my backyard next week.
41:30: So there you go. So see, I got distracted again, and you helped. Because he's sitting, you people don't see, he's in there doing this number and stuff like that.
41:40: Now he's trying to do the innocent thing. Oh, come on, come on, come on. So you all know that I have been saying for a very, very, very long time that this, there are fundamental foundational differences.
41:55: And that if you don't believe, when I was talking with Doug, what did I say when we talked about Christian nationalism?
42:02: What was my big thing? I was objecting to any form of sacralism, and I was insisting that the only way that this can ever happen is as a result of the massive outpouring of the
42:16: Spirit of God and the conversion of the nations. You take those things away, and you're back to Christendom 1 .0,
42:25: that is, Roman Catholicism. You know, maybe around the year 1200, 1300, you know, prior to the
42:33: Reformation. Yeah, the Reformers imbibed that political theory. And for Stephen Wolf, that's what makes the
42:40: Reformation. That's not what made the Reformation. How could it?
42:45: Because it didn't differentiate them from Rome. Whatever makes the Reformation has to differentiate the
42:51: Reformers from Roman Catholicism. Okay, so if they're holding the same political stuff, sacralism, then that's not what makes the
42:58: Reformation, is it? No, it's not. So Doug would use the term
43:05: Christian nationalism. He says, I can work with the label. But he had all these caveats, and has all these caveats, and said on the sweater vest dialogues, yeah, you've got to...
43:20: If the Spirit of God doesn't make this happen, it's not going to happen. And so, you know, the
43:28: Puritans would build institutions always looking forward, down the road, okay?
43:39: They weren't looking to it now. They had seen what happens when you try to do it now.
43:45: The reason they were fleeing England was because they saw what sacralism did. They were being persecuted by Protestants, not by Roman Catholics.
43:57: So anyway, he says, after the book came out, several people in Wilson's world began to attack me publicly.
44:06: Peter Lightheart, Alistair Roberts, Brian Mattson, David Bonson, James White, Andrew Sandlin, Joe Boot, and others.
44:15: By the way, I have fairly regular communication right now with three of those people.
44:28: Two of those people, Andrew Sandlin and Joe Boot. We're both, Andrew and I are both fellows with Ezra Institute, which is
44:38: Joe Boot's organization. Now, quote, stupid accusations of Thomism, Romanism, and sacralism were thrown around, riling up the ignorant.
44:54: I had somebody on Twitter say to me today, well, why don't you just give them a fair shake and don't strawman them and stuff.
45:01: I wrote back and said, did you write to him about this?
45:09: Stupid accusations, riling up the ignorant. No response. Well, wait a minute. I haven't looked since the program started, so maybe there's been a response since then, but I sort of doubt it.
45:24: But it's just the way it is. He really views myself and people who take my position as stupid.
45:32: He referred to Phil Johnson, who said similar things, moronic. The ignorant,
45:39: I mean, I hope he looks down once in a while, or eventually he's going to trip and fall. Otherwise, the nose is pointed straight up in the air.
45:48: Many tried privately to get the book pulled. I have no knowledge of any of that. Then there's something about doxxing somebody.
45:58: I think that was that. I did read something about the controversy, but I didn't even know who was involved.
46:09: Oh, and right before that, he said, and that bothered a lot of people because my theology is basically that of reformed orthodoxy, not
46:19: Greg Bonson or more recent innovators. He really views himself. Though he says in the book he's not a theologian, he views himself as the greatest theologian.
46:29: And that's why I said to someone on Twitter today, you want us to debate? Here's my thesis. He'll never touch it.
46:36: My thesis is the Reformation is defined by the formal and material principles of the
46:42: Reformation, Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. His entire operating idea is the
46:48: Reformation is defined by their political theory, which did not distinguish them from Rome. It's absurd.
46:54: He'll never debate it, but that's the issue. That's what the issue is.
47:01: So anyway, wouldn't you love to see him debating
47:09: Greg Bonson? Oh, my goodness.
47:17: It would be Bonsonstein all over again. It really would be. That would be amazing.
47:24: All right. So he's basically saying there is no infighting between Christian nationalists.
47:36: It was late 20th century boomer political theology versus classical
47:42: Protestantism. Oh, we're not talking spinning here. We won't even try to hide it.
47:49: Um, we were never in the same camp. That's for sure. Most people in the
47:54: Broad -Wilson orbit were against me from the beginning. Um, you know, when the book first came out and people were throwing around kinists and stuff like that,
48:04: I tried to say, you know, I don't see any evidence of that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I tried to be slow on it. It's taken some...
48:11: I've had to get beaten up on a number of times to start going. Yeah, maybe so. Um, so today there is remarkable unity on the
48:23: Christian new right, CNR, of which Christian nationalism is but one label that some have adopted.
48:30: My friendship with the Ogden guys, Joel Webben, Isker, Engel, the American Reformer folks, and many others, even non -Protestants, even non -Protestants, is solid and I foresee nothing that could break it.
48:41: We don't agree on everything, but we are friends. There is no infighting among us. There is collaboration.
48:47: The feuding is between all of us and one man, Doug Wilson, the man who can work with the term and who is himself responsible for starting and perpetuating the feud.
48:58: Well, that's not true, but anyway. Um, ah, this is very interesting.
49:05: This will be the last one. Um, is there something...
49:13: Oh, oh, what? You're the one in the channel and it's people on the channel that are texting me.
49:22: Yes, Gene, Gene Clyde just texted me. In fact, Gene Clyde just tried to call me. He says, sure, you let
49:29: Wilson and Hanholtz distract you, but ignore my texts. So I don't know. Um, I don't,
49:37: I don't, I don't know what's going on there. But, uh, he said that was my sermon title and subject yesterday.
49:45: I'm not sure what that is, but anyway. Hi, Gene, you're interrupting everything. And now everybody knows that you're probably playing with a squirrel or something like that.
49:53: Well, we're just squirrel, squirrel, squirrel. Yeah. Okay. All right. Anyway, uh, I, I figured he might be in there, uh, causing problems here.
50:01: Quote, it isn't even clear that Doug is part of the CNR since he's a theonomic libertarian and would probably call us statists and maybe woke right.
50:14: He fits far better with the crowd that was attacking me from the beginning. The anti -sacralist, anti -Aristotle, post -Milhope revivalist camp of white and boot.
50:25: And that's not white boot, but white and boot. So, but I want you to catch the description here because I think it says more than, than most people saw.
50:35: From the beginning, the anti -sacralist, now he mocks that term. He can't hold a candle to Leonard Verdine, historically, theologically, anything else.
50:44: But he mocks what he doesn't understand. That's very, very common. But again, sacralism, the destruction of the, um, con the, here
50:58: I raise my evanator. I've, this, the destruction of the, of severe sovereignty, the divisions between person, family, church, local, national, so on and so forth.
51:14: Sacralism wipes those things out by making things sacred that the
51:20: Bible doesn't make sacred or give that kind of specific authority to. So you see this with the
51:26: Inquisition. You see this with the Pope making the, uh, uh, emperor stand outside his palace for days in the snow, that kind of stuff.
51:38: This is sacralism, Christian prince stuff. So from the, the anti -sacralist, anti -Aristotle.
51:49: Well, again, you, you, you touch someone's idol and they, they go nuts.
51:55: I'm watching someone going nuts right now, um, with that kind of stuff online.
52:02: Uh, but again, Aristotle, Thomas, these are central sources of theological framework within Roman Catholicism, uh, certainly at the
52:19: Council of Trent and now with the resourcement amongst Protestants, so on and so forth, very much with, um,
52:25: Stephen Wolfe as well. Post Mill Hope, there it is. That's the Puritan Hope. That's what I was just talking about.
52:32: He rejects the necessity of regeneration. So what he'll do is something good will happen.
52:39: Um, uh, defeating of Kamala Harris, uh, you know, some, something happens in, in politics that, that goes the opposite direction of the massive woke tsunami that we've been living through for years.
52:58: And he'll mockingly say something along the lines of, well, how can this happen if we're not seeing massive regeneration and, and so on and so forth as if I, maybe he thinks that's actually a valid criticism or something.
53:13: Our point is, is that if you attempt to make a
53:18: Christian culture out of people who are not submitted to Christ, the result we've already seen, the result we've already seen for hundreds of years, massive nominalism, twisting of the gospel, turning the state into something the state's not, this kind of thing, he doesn't take any of that seriously.
53:40: Uh, but he's against the Post Mill Hope. He's not Post Millennial. He's against Post Mill Hope. He's against Bonson.
53:47: He's against presuppositionalism because he's a Thomist. That's absolutely vital in some of the more fundamental things that we're dealing with here in regards to worldview, secularism, things like that.
53:58: And then the last word he uses, he goes revivalist camp of white and boot.
54:06: Revivalist, that's regeneration. That's the point. So he's, so he's saying
54:13: I, he is not a part of the anti -sacralist, anti -Aristotle, Post Mill Hope revivalist camp of white and boot.
54:20: He's not amongst us. And so anybody who recognizes the danger of sacralism, anybody who recognizes that Aristotle's God wasn't our
54:34: God, that his ethics weren't our ethics, um, anyone who recognizes the importance of the
54:41: Post Millennial hope and regeneration, why are you following this guy?
54:50: Why are you going to conferences that he's speaking at? He doesn't have any respect for you.
54:56: You're not going to be able to work together with that. That's what he's saying here. It's very straightforward.
55:05: Um, so he says also the appearance of infighting is exacerbated by the overlap of Doug's online supporters and those who are never on the
55:19: CN or CNR side. There are followers of light heart, white boot, et cetera, supporting Doug against us.
55:24: CN is not breaking apart or endlessly dividing, nor has it failed. Most of our current opponents were never united with us.
55:33: Well, as, as far as, you know, me? Yeah, you're exactly right. I've seen,
55:40: I've come to see the foundational differences more clearly since the book came out, but yeah,
55:47: I was hesitant as soon as it came out. And I remain, uh, consistent at that point in, uh, in what
55:56: I'm saying. So this is why, um, folks are undoubtedly contacting
56:04: Joel Webben and going, what are y 'all doing? Because basically what he's saying is you can defeat trash world without the gospel, right?
56:20: Isn't, isn't that what's being said? I recognize this is difficult to fathom, but in 2025, I'll be hosting a conference that is not about reformed theology.
56:28: What it's about defeating trash world. So it's, so you can defeat trash world without reformed theology because you're inviting people who are not reformed.
56:40: And in fact, think reformed theology is trash. Um, so isn't it fair for someone to go, uh, what's going on?
56:55: What's, what's happening here? Well, that's a good question. That's a good question. So, um,
57:02: I would very strongly, uh, suggest, you know, I've, I've got, yeah, here's, uh, here, here, uh, put that one up.
57:15: Oh, good grief. Look at that. See, why does that happen? I don't understand that. The other one's got nice and big, but yeah, see there's, uh, there's common problems.
57:25: Yeah. Yes. Reformed is cringe. Reformed is cringe. Uh, he, he doesn't, he doesn't call himself reformed.
57:34: And then there was another one where someone had seen that one goes nice and big.
57:40: No idea what the difference is. None of this is in the Bible to which it responds.
57:45: Your point being, think about that for a second. He knows what that is.
57:52: That's a rejection on his part of Sola Scriptura. So I've asked him, maybe he'll answer.
58:01: Maybe he'll say whether he believes in Sola Scriptura or not. I don't think he does. So the question
58:08: I have is, is the thesis of the
58:15: April conference, that trash world can be defeated without the gospel of Jesus Christ?
58:29: Is that, is that the thesis? And if that's not the thesis, then can you explain how
58:37: Calvin Robinson is going to interact if someone gets up?
58:44: Okay. I know someone who's currently on the list there that I can guarantee you, um, will have the temerity to stand up and say, the only way to defeat trash world is with the gospel of Jesus Christ.
59:05: And he will go so far as to say, and that gospel of Jesus Christ is defined by the five points of Calvinism.
59:17: And they're going to have an interesting conversation. It's going to happen.
59:24: It's going to happen. I can tell you right now. So what have, what have
59:31: I been criticized for over and over again? Oh, you know, all we're doing with this crusade stuff is we're just, you know, young men need examples of bravery and masculinity.
59:43: And I'm going, but, but, but, but, but, but there's lots of ways of doing that without sacrificing the gospel, without sacrificing the gospel.
59:55: Urban the second started these military campaigns.
01:00:00: They were not defensive. They were offensive. And he began them with the promise of forgiveness of sins.
01:00:10: That's a fundamental denial of the gospel. I don't think Calvin Robinson's going to agree with me on that at all.
01:00:19: But that's what I've been saying from the start. If you start telling people, hey, don't worry about that.
01:00:25: Leave that off this side. Don't worry about that. Let's just focus on this part of it.
01:00:32: Now we have Joel Webben saying, this conference isn't about reform theology.
01:00:38: We can put that off. We need to defeat trash world. And I think of, look,
01:00:48: I, I remember, I don't know what year it was long time ago. I filled in for a well -known radio host,
01:00:59: Christian radio host, doesn't like me anymore. But, and I had
01:01:06: Jeff Durbin on as the guest in studio, and he was talking about abolition.
01:01:15: And what, what was his main strong argument?
01:01:22: That the only way to end abortion is to bring the gospel to bear because the gospel is the only power that's been given to the church.
01:01:30: It's the power of God into salvation, changes hearts. Nothing else can, nothing else can. And if you approach abortion the way the pro -life movement has done it, which perpetuates its own continued existence, then you are removing the gospel from the argument.
01:01:53: It's something over here. This is, this is, that's, that's over there. That's fine and dandy.
01:01:59: That's cool. We're focused over here right now. And Jeff was like, you can't do that.
01:02:05: You can't separate that out. This is a gospel issue. You're calling these women to repentance for the murder of their children.
01:02:12: If you don't do that, what power do you have? You don't have any anymore.
01:02:20: Same thing with defeating trash rule. If the gospel is not, not the message, what are you doing?
01:02:28: So I say this to everybody that's involved with that conference. What are you doing? What are you doing?
01:02:35: If you're, if you are accepting, and that's why, look, um, okay,
01:02:47: I'm sorry. I just happened to see that someone was responding to something. It was, and Calvin Robinson was,
01:02:54: I, I know he's not going to be listening to this, but, um, this thought maybe someone else had said something.
01:03:00: Um, Joel Webben needs to call
01:03:06: Calvin Robinson right now. Not tomorrow, not the next day.
01:03:14: And ask him the question. Do you believe that it is important in the defeat of trash world to dedicate the world to the
01:03:32: Immaculate Heart of Mary? I'd also ask him, do you really believe that the thief on the cross was saved through the prayers of the
01:03:49: Virgin Mary? Um, I think it's vitally important for everybody up there to know.
01:04:00: Now, I don't know, again, I, half the people speaking up there, I don't know who they are. I don't know who they are, sorry.
01:04:09: But I know enough of them that I would, I would like to hope,
01:04:16: I'd like to hope that they wouldn't buy into the, oh, come on, look, we've all got to get together.
01:04:22: We've all got to, you know, I mean, that was the crusader mentality.
01:04:28: Let's lay all that stuff, defend Christendom. Maybe they will.
01:04:34: I don't know. I don't know. But what this says to me is exactly what we've been saying is playing out in front of our eyes.
01:04:48: And yes, all this stuff is this, this interaction, Roman Catholicism, very important, man.
01:04:54: I've got a guy. Um, and again, dear friend of mine probably saw this.
01:05:04: Um, but, um, oh, it disappeared. I'm not sure where it went.
01:05:10: But I had a guy who was telling me about, um, oh yeah,
01:05:17: I, I made a comment about indulgences. And he said, you will. What? You saw that?
01:05:22: You saw that one? Yeah. And, and fortunately it just, um, the, the guy's name scrolled by here.
01:05:30: Oh, there it is. Wait a minute. Yeah. Okay. It came up. Yay. That's pretty unusual. Some guy,
01:05:37: Bug Hall, you'll believe in indulgences and all the truths of the
01:05:42: Catholic faith. When you face your judgment, you will resent them for eternity in hell.
01:05:48: But you will not be surprised because even now, you know, you're lying. Um, now the, the fact that you've got someone saying this, he, he has to know that's minimally a phoeniate position.
01:06:05: He has to know that over the past 80 years, Rome has said, and yet to that, he has to know that the
01:06:14: Pope just recently said Luther was right on justification. Um, not officially.
01:06:20: Um, but anyway, uh, but yeah, this, this kind of stuff is all over out there.
01:06:29: And it's important to talk about indulgences. I think Protestants should understand what indulgences are. Why? Where, where did
01:06:37: I put it? There it is. Uh, how am
01:06:43: I gonna get this over? Well, that's too, it wouldn't, it wouldn't show up anyways. Let me, let me tell you something that's brand spanking new.
01:06:51: What's the date on this? This is a couple of days ago. From the Office of the Apostolic Penitentiary, indulgences for Jubilee Year 2025.
01:07:01: Twenty, twenty -five. Can we get a more, any more, any more official? This is from the Vatican. Um, a plenary indulgence is a grace granted by the
01:07:12: Catholic Church through the merits of Jesus Christ to remove the temporal punishment due to sin. The indulgence applies to sins already forgiven.
01:07:20: A plenary indulgence cleanses a soul as if the person had just been baptized. Plenary indulgences obtained during the
01:07:28: Jubilee Year can also be applied to souls in purgatory with the possibility of obtaining two plenary indulgences for the deceased in one day.
01:07:37: Now, this does make me want to stop and go, um, we just debated this subject and man, it seems like Catholic apologists these days are now saying that purgatories just could be instantaneous.
01:07:50: I'm not even sure how this even works anymore. But anyway, to obtain indulgence, the usual conditions of detachment from all sins, sacramental confession, holy communion, and prayer for the intentions of the
01:08:01: Pope must be met. Usually an Our Father Hail Mary and Glory Be.
01:08:07: So you got to get those so you can get your indulgence. But how do you get these? How do you get these indulgences?
01:08:13: Well, make a pilgrimage to Rome. That'll cost you a few denariuses.
01:08:21: A tourism, yes. And pray for the Pope's intentions. Now, some of you would not want to pray for the
01:08:27: Pope's intentions because you're hoping that he won't accomplish his intentions because you know as well as I, he's changing the church.
01:08:33: Pope's intentions in any one of the four major papal basilicas,
01:08:38: St. Peter's Basilica, the Arch Basilica of St. John Lateran, St. Mary Major, and St.
01:08:44: Paul outside the walls, or any of the special Jubilee churches listed by the
01:08:49: Apostolic Penitentiary in Rome. But only those. Make a pilgrimage to one of the following churches in Italy, Basilica of St.
01:08:59: Francis of Assisi, Basilica, there's a whole bunch of them. I'm not going to talk about all of them here. Or in the
01:09:05: Holy Land, Basilica of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, that would be dangerous. Basilica of the
01:09:12: Nativity, Bethlehem Basilica of the Annunciation in Nazareth. Well, okay. Number three, perform an extraordinary work of mercy such as a generous gift to the poor or visiting nursing homes or prisons.
01:09:24: That's a whole lot different than going to Italy, isn't it? Look, what all of these are, this is right now.
01:09:31: This is what's being offered for the Jubilee year of 2025. This is Rome right now.
01:09:37: And what you need to understand is that indulgence is a withdrawal from what's called the thesaurus meritorium, the treasury of merit.
01:09:49: It's a transfer of merit to your soul or to someone's soul in purgatory.
01:09:57: Where'd that grace come from? It's the excess merit of Jesus because he only needed to shed one drop of blood to redeem the world.
01:10:04: But since he shed his blood copiously, there's all this excess merit. It's the excess merit of Mary because she didn't commit any personal sin.
01:10:14: And so she has a lot of excess merit. All the saints, what makes them a saint is that they don't have to go to purgatory.
01:10:24: Their souls are ready to enter into the presence of God because any temporal punishments for sins have already been dealt with.
01:10:30: So there's excess merit. Their excess merit goes into the treasury of merit. And the thesaurus meritorium, according to the teaching of the church, is under the control of the keys of Peter held by the bishop of Rome.
01:10:43: And so an indulgence is an action of papal authority in transferring this merit to the individual who earns this plenary indulgence.
01:10:57: So you've confessed your sin, but you still have the temporal punishments. You get the indulgence.
01:11:03: Poof! It's gone. It's as if you just got baptized. You're as innocent as the little baby that just got baptized.
01:11:10: Because you walked through some gates in churches in Rome.
01:11:18: You climbed up some stairs on your knees, all this kind of stuff.
01:11:24: That's how you get an indulgence. And of course, they built
01:11:29: St. Peter's with the money that they charge for indulgences. Oh, we don't do that anymore. But you did. And you didn't tear
01:11:35: St. Peter's down to give the money back to the poor, did you? Even though the Vatican's rumored to be bankrupt.
01:11:44: And again, United States government owes 37 trillion dollars. So there you go.
01:11:51: Seems to be something going on all over the place. So there's some interesting stuff happening here real quickly over the past 60 seconds.
01:12:07: Okay, so this is interesting.
01:12:20: Yeah, so people are explaining. One guy named
01:12:26: Diego Robert says to Calvin Robinson, as a regular fan of both of y 'all's work and who disagrees with y 'all on several items, where do you, what?
01:12:38: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Please understand that James White is not specifically targeting you for engagement.
01:12:45: Rather, it's because of your recent partnership in next year's CN conference, which CN has been a major issue for JW for some time now.
01:12:53: He also has historically engaged with other Catholic apologists like Trent Horn. So it's organic for him to engage with you more often now that you've entered into more
01:13:02: Protestant spaces like Doug Wilson, etc. And he says, gotcha, thank you. Why is it
01:13:08: James White thinks he can gatekeep someone else's event? Does he hold a monopoly in the reformed space?
01:13:17: No, we're talking about what it means for the leaders of this particular conference and whether they believe that the only way to actually defeat
01:13:26: Trashworld is with the gospel, or whether it's not. So that's there.
01:13:33: And then somebody else had said, someone, Clay Kennedy said to him,
01:13:40: I have to admit, I would pay pay -per -view money to see a debate between you two.
01:13:47: To which he said, I do not believe there would be any good fruit in that. I only debate people who can converse in good faith. I have not experienced that from Whitebeard thus far.
01:13:58: Yeah, asking questions is a bad thing. Bad, bad thing. Yeah. Um, yeah.
01:14:06: I don't get the feeling. Now, I'd be happy to do so. If Calvin Robinson would be willing to debate, well, he won't answer any of my questions, so how can
01:14:19: I even go there? But if he would be willing to debate the bodily assumption of marriage, immaculate conception,
01:14:30: Marian intercession, does he believe in co -redemptors, co -mediatrix? Any of the
01:14:37: Marian doctrines. How about sola scriptura? I've done that one a few times, many times. It'd be interesting to debate someone who's not in communion with Rome at that point, because I'd like to know, if you're not in communion with Rome, how do you make the personal decision as to where to draw those lines?
01:14:55: If you reject sola scriptura, how do you do that? I don't know. Don't know.
01:15:00: But yeah, that would be more than interesting to do. Yes, sir. So that particular tweet that you read there wasn't what
01:15:09: I had seen. I thought you were thinking of this one from 10 o 'clock this morning.
01:15:16: Last year, while my grandmother, a Roman Catholic. Is this Calvin Robinson?
01:15:21: No, this is someone else, but this is about indulgences. Oh. Last year, when my grandmother, a
01:15:27: Roman Catholic, was on her deathbed, my relatives and a priest wanted to pay money to fast -track her out of purgatory.
01:15:38: It still happens. This is his point. It still happens. This isn't some just old thing that doesn't go on anymore.
01:15:46: It's fast -track her out of purgatory. Is that a two -for -one sale? How does that work? I don't know.
01:15:51: Well, that's the whole problem, is the modern Roman Catholic Church is to the point where, while still talking about purgatory, they can't tell you whether it's instantaneous or not.
01:16:00: And that was what was so disappointing about the debate with Riello, is he wouldn't engage in that either and really answer the questions that need to be asked and answered.
01:16:12: And that didn't happen. So anyway. All right. So interesting stuff going on.
01:16:20: Interesting stuff, indeed. But the clarification amongst the ostensibly reformed is ongoing.
01:16:32: And I said, between now and April, I think a month ago, a
01:16:41: Zoom call took place, something like that took place, between Webben and Ogden and Wolf.
01:16:49: And it was decided, we're cutting ourselves free. We're not going to have to worry about...
01:16:56: For all this time, we've been utilizing Doug Wilson, James White, Joe Boot, these people.
01:17:05: Not going to do that anymore. We're cutting ourselves free. We'll open fire when we want to open fire and do our thing.
01:17:14: And so I think that's what we're seeing. And the result of that is inevitably going to be an adoption of Wolfian categories, which will require an abandonment of post -millennial hope,
01:17:29: Puritan hope, apologetic methodology. When you see people dumping their apologetic methodology to accomplish political stuff, you know what's going on.
01:17:39: You know what's going on. The foundations are shifting. And maybe we could have a conversation about that a little bit more in depth in regards to that.
01:17:51: But you're going to see theological realignments taking place amongst the people that are getting on that boat and pushing out to sea.
01:18:04: And my hope continues to be that eventually, at some point, the young leaders who are involved in this movement.
01:18:19: Well, I didn't grab it.
01:18:26: Or did I? Hold on a second. Let me see. We'll wrap up the program right after this. Hold on a second. There it is.
01:18:37: Thank goodness. I had ever note has stopped working for me for a long time. And then whenever you upgrade to a new computer, get a whole new
01:18:47: OS and everything else, all of a sudden, stuff starts working again. And it's like, yay. So Doug wrote on Thursday the 26th, he wrote a blog in May blog article talking about Refuge Church in Ogden.
01:19:06: And he said what I have said for quite some time now.
01:19:13: And again, this program documents it. Quote, within a few years, Ogden will have either fully succumbed and been torn apart by the poison they currently declined to resist.
01:19:27: Or by God's grace, they will eventually stand and fight and triumph over this toxic nonsense.
01:19:33: In the latter case, if and when that time comes, we will rejoice and have gained wiser and more battle tested allies.
01:19:42: Now that's his way of saying what I've said all along.
01:19:48: And that is, time's going to come where decisions have to be made. These anonymous people who right now are entertaining you with the memes and the videos.
01:20:04: You know, I didn't even play on the program here. Did you see the video that someone posted of me?
01:20:11: They put my face on a little baby who is having a crying fit and stuff like that. Doug retweeted that and said to Isker, would you agree with me?
01:20:25: This is noise and not signal. And he said, no, it's a silly meme about a man who's becoming more and more silly.
01:20:31: Even he would not condemn it, would not do it. They need to understand the people that you are riding the wave of popularity of are going to keep demanding more and more radical things out of you.
01:20:49: And if you ever get to the point where you realize, I can't, I can't go there.
01:20:54: I can't, I can't say those things. I can't, I can't support that activity. I can't support that action.
01:21:01: This is becoming sinful. They will turn on you so fast that your head will spin and you will lose that audience.
01:21:12: And you will find yourself the object of memes and everything else. Now that might be good for you.
01:21:21: That might be a good thing. But the problem is it will probably also destroy your churches.
01:21:29: Once you've let it in, it's hard to get rid of it. Um, so either they're going to have to go whole hog all the way or eventually stop and have to fight the war we've been fighting already.
01:21:49: That's my hope is that they will. Um, you know, uh, by God's grace, they will eventually stand and fight and triumph over this toxic nonsense.
01:22:00: In the latter case, if, and when that time comes, we will rejoice to have gained wiser and more battle tested allies.
01:22:06: Well, that's Doug being really nice, but I've been the slow one on all this.
01:22:15: I've, I said long, I don't want to build permanent walls. So I was sort of going,
01:22:22: I, I still want to hope the best there right now. It's not looking so good. Sometimes I hope for stuff that I don't get.
01:22:29: Okay. I get it. I'm trying, I'm trying. So anyway, there you go.
01:22:36: Um, up to speed on everything. Who knows what could happen between now and tomorrow, but we could, hey, we can always do something remotely.
01:22:47: You, you've, you've always, yeah, I believe me. I know. I know. I'm just, I'm just saying, uh, it, it still could be done.
01:22:53: I don't expect that to happen. Besides that, I want to get a nice long nap tomorrow because I'm not going to be getting much sleep tomorrow night.
01:23:01: Um, I'm not, is it really bad in your neighborhood? Yeah. But what about at midnight?
01:23:11: Uh, some, but mostly, you know, the, the families with young kids, they, you know, 10 o 'clock's about as late as they get.
01:23:18: It's the battle, the bulge. Oh wow. Uh, it is, and we're talking huge, massive stuff that rattles the windows.
01:23:26: It's, it's terrible. And, um, we've got a household of kitties right now.
01:23:32: And, uh, that'd be fine. Yeah. Oh no, it's not going to be fun. Because the kittens, the two kittens weren't alive in, for July 4th.
01:23:42: Right. They've never heard this stuff before. So I'm, I'm very concerned about that.
01:23:47: Cowboy, uh, the other night, well, in fact, it was Christmas night. Somebody set some stuff off. I thought that was interesting.
01:23:53: You said that that was a problem. Christmas Eve. Yeah. Past two years. Yeah. No more silent night.
01:23:59: Yeah. In ours, it was Christmas night and cowboys, you know, going to be three in March.
01:24:05: And he decided to head under the bed. It really freaked him out. The year before it didn't bother him at all.
01:24:12: So, but no, I was saying that Biden might, you know, drop the plunger. Who knows? Oh, oh, oh yeah.
01:24:18: Well, it's day to day, man. Day to day. No two ways about it.
01:24:24: No two ways about it. All right. Anyway. All right. Look, by the way, I, I, let me apologize if there are a lot of folks that just haven't kept up with the stuff.
01:24:35: And so you're like, man, I don't understand anything you just said. Well, I'm sorry. Uh, sometimes you've just got to, you've got to deal with stuff that's happening in the church and this is happening in the church.
01:24:47: And so we've got to deal with it. And for us, it's real simple.
01:24:54: Um, gospel, gospel, gospel, gospel. You sound like John Viper. Okay, cool.
01:25:00: Um, but yeah, thank you. Um, we've been consistent on this. We're staying there.
01:25:07: Call me a boomer all you want. It means nothing. You use terminology like that. You're just demonstrating you don't have much of a serious argument to make.
01:25:15: You really, really don't. It's, it's, it's sad. All right. So not saying that we'll see you next year, but we'll see you next year one way or the other.
01:25:26: Whether we see you again beforehand or not, I don't know. Um, but, um, thanks for watching.
01:25:33: Um, obviously right at the end of the year, you didn't get any mailers from us.
01:25:38: You didn't get any begging letters, but if you are sitting there going, well, I'm glad you're holding firm and you want to support us in doing that.
01:25:47: Please do so very much appreciate that. Please keep praying for Chris Arnzen. I think he was released from the hospital yesterday and, um, still working on those blood clots and stuff.
01:25:58: Um, and he's got a long road to hoe. And so pray for, pray for Chris. He's a good man, uh, fighting, uh, fighting a hard battle there really is.
01:26:08: So thought I'd bring you up to speed on that. We will see you next time, either tomorrow or next year.