February 28, 2023 Show with Zak Saenz on “Making the Biker Community a Mission Field”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 28th day of February 2023, and I am thrilled to have a first -time guest today who comes to us by the enthusiastic urging of Jerry Johnson, who is a

Reformed Christian apologist and documentarian, most well -known for his

DVD series, Amazing Grace, the History and Theology of Calvinism.

He told me you've got to get Zach Sines on the program today and talk about his mission field that he labors in to the biker community, and that's exactly what we're going to do today.

Zach Sines is the owner of The Shooter's Zone and A Biker's Look, and we are addressing making the biker community a mission field.

It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Zach Sines.

Well, thank you, Chris. I'm glad to be here. And hopefully this doesn't jeopardize J .J.'s

and yours friendship at all, me being out here. Well, first of all, before we even get into our main theme, number one, let's hear about The Shooter's Zone and A Biker's Look.

Sure. Well, The Shooter's Zone is just something I do. I develop content for the high -power airgun industry, and so my role is basically to work with several different companies and take their products, create content, whether that be verbal content, written content, or photographic content and distribute it throughout the

Internet. As far as A Biker's Look, that's a book I wrote about two years ago. It's called A Biker's Look at Romans.

And I'm real happy with it. God bless me with that book, and it's served its purpose over the last two years.

And you also have a website called A Biker's Look, correct? Or a YouTube page? That's correct.

Yeah, sure do. And a YouTube page I have as well, too. You know, you got to do all that stuff,

I guess, these days. And going back to The Shooter's Zone, you said these were airguns that you are dealing with in this website?

Yeah, a lot of people don't really realize that the progression of airguns has really escalated over the years.

It used to be, you know, you had your Daisy Red Rider or what's called a break -barrel pellet gun or something like that.

I had a Daisy when I was a tiny little kid. There you go. Well, now these airguns have really developed to the point in which they're now,

I mean, they're upwards of 70 caliber, 20 millimeter, and they shoot, you know, extremely large projectiles.

But I would say they're pretty much on par with, say, like a black powder rifle. Now, what do people usually use an airgun for?

Well, you know, probably just about everything that a regular gun would be used for. Going out in the backyard with the kids and just having some fun shooting cans or target shooting.

There's a lot of different matches throughout the country where people come together from all over the world to shoot matches.

And hunting is a big thing. These airguns now are capable of taking down the largest game in North America, including

Buffalo. Wow. Yeah. Wow. So it's pretty neat. And how can people find out more about that?

What's the website? Well, I have a Facebook page is typically what

I run off of that. And it's the Shooter's Zone on Facebook. So if you just click that in on Facebook search, it should come right up.

And we do something here as a tradition on Iron Trip and Zion Radio. Whenever we have a first -time guest, we have that guest give a summary of their salvation testimony.

That would include the kind of religious atmosphere in which they were raised, if any, and what kind of providential circumstances our sovereign

Lord raised up in their lives that drew them to himself and saved them. So I'd love to hear your story.

Yeah, I would love to give it to you. I was kind of a late bloomer being a believer at 35, but I grew up, as most people say, kind of Catholic.

We consider ourselves Catholics, but very rarely went to church unless it was a special occasion or a wedding or a funeral.

But I had a big influence from my great -grandmother, who I grew up with. I was growing up in a broken home, just my mom.

And she was religious. That's, I guess, the best word for it, in which she would get on her knees when she got up in the morning and pray.

And she would get on her knees before she went into bed and pray. And that was kind of my upbringing, was just seeing her was probably my only look into God, even though she didn't at any time express the gospel message to me or what she believed.

Still, seeing somebody do that in itself, I think, says a lot, especially for someone that's in their 90s.

So I didn't really grow up in that atmosphere of being raised in a church or anything.

But the interesting thing is I kind of always had this feeling. And again, we have to be careful of feelings, right?

But I always had this feeling that God was going to one day use me.

And that's all I knew, was that. I grew up in a very troubled kid, got in trouble all the time, didn't get my stuff straightened out to probably my mid -20s.

But as far as my salvation, you know, it's not in any way spectacular.

But then again, it is, I guess. I just woke up one morning when I was 35 years old and realized

I was saved. And from that moment on, everything changed in my life, everything.

Praise God for that. And you wound up writing this book, A Biker's Look at Romans.

So tell us about this book and how specifically would a biker look at Romans that would be different from anybody else that looks at Romans?

Well, extremely differently. I Am Reformed was brought up by two men who discipled me, one being

Mark Cronwald and another being Jeff Bolker, who some may be aware of. Oh, yeah. It's been years since I've spoken with Jeff.

I know Jeff. Well, you should get in touch with him again. Again, he's still pretty active out there.

But, you know, it's how bikers would look at this differently is there are very, very few reformed bikers.

When you go out into the mission field or you just go out into the world of bikers riding around, typically what you find is

Armenians. And that's how they've been brought up. And they have no reformed understanding whatsoever.

So the book, really, when I decided to write it, to me was a tool that not only

I could use in my own ministry, but also a tool that I thought that if people would just get a hold of it, bikers, that they would get a basic understanding of the overall look of Romans.

And basically how I go through it is it's not a big book because bikers typically don't read big books.

Each chapter. Yeah, exactly. I go through each chapter and I really pick out what

I feel are the highlights in each chapter and explain the critical points in each chapter.

And so each chapter could be anywhere from two, three, maybe even four pages long.

But I keep it at a minimum, again, because they need to have their attention held and they're not going to pick up a two or three hundred page book and read it from front to back.

So that was my kind of thought on the book. And upon its introduction two years ago, it actually did very well for a while.

It went up to number two bestseller in new releases in the Christian category.

So, again, it was really a blessing to have that out there. But, you know, when you're when you put out a book yourself and you don't have a big company behind you, there's only a certain amount of time before it starts to fizzle a little bit.

And that's kind of where it's at now. Well, how did you first become interested in riding motorcycles?

And tell us this story about how you bought your first motorcycle. Perhaps one was given to you and you began to ride it.

Sure. And then became even more interested in the whole biker community paradigm, if you could.

For sure. Well, I had my first motorcycle at 17. I'm now 60.

I just turned 60 this month. And so I've been riding motorcycles really most of my adult life.

You know, when I started off, pretty much that I needed something to drive. And a friend of mine had this motorcycle.

It was a 1972 Triumph Tiger, which was chopped and raked and, you know, a full kind of chopper.

And so that was my introduction to my first bike. I had several friends that rode at that time.

And it's always something that's enjoyable to get together with, like, you know, like -minded people.

And again, at that time, not a believer. And just go for rides and grab something to eat and have fun, things like that.

That was my introduction. As far as how I progressed in that, again,

I've always had a motorcycle until I moved from Connecticut to Arizona in 1988 or 89.

And for a few years, I didn't have one until I got established out there. And once I got reestablished out there and started making money again, then

I purchased another motorcycle. And I have had a motorcycle ever since that time.

And so as it progressed, it wasn't long after I became a believer that I met a gentleman.

I was having lunch in this place, and he also rode motorcycles. And he introduced me to Mark Kronwald, again, one of the two people that kind of discipled me as a young Christian.

And Mark did this thing called Friday Night Biker Bible Study. Now, Mark came from a background of him and his wife, and especially his wife's family, were kind of big in the

Phoenix area, in which the family typically gave out quite a bit of money and land in order to build churches.

So Mark was an elder at the church he was at at the time, which was called East Valley Bible Church Gilbert.

And so I just started going to his Friday Night Biker Bible Study and starting to kind of grasp everything.

And right from the beginning, you know, it all made sense to me, everything he was saying.

I think I always tell people there's an advantage to not knowing anything about Scripture when you're a new believer, because you don't have things to pull you away from the truth as much.

You can absorb things, and you can really look at it, I think, more objectively and just really grasp the entirety of what the meaning is of Scripture.

And so that was my case. Everything that was being taught to me seemed logical to me. It made perfectly good sense how it all fit together.

But after a while, I started bringing so many people into the group as a young believer that we actually at that point decided to split the group into two different groups, in which

I led one group in a different location, and he led his original group.

And it was really a progression from there. Well, I have heard from friends who are bikers, some of whom are in the

CMA, Christian Motorcyclists Association. I have heard, now this may not be your experience, and it may be not a universal experience, but at least these friends of mine who are, for the most part, on Long Island, New York, that even if a biker group, perhaps even a gang, even if they are not

Christian, they seem to have a warm acceptance of Christian bikers reaching out to them, unlike many other spheres of society.

Is that your experience? Yes, and I'll kind of explain it a little bit, because I guess kind of like anything, as you look at Christian motorcycle groups or ministries, or Christian motorcycle clubs even, there is this kind of spectrum in which everything works.

The top dogs, so to speak, which are the motorcycle clubs that are considered to be the largest, most ruthless club in that area, kind of oversees the entire area that goes on, especially motorcycle groups and motorcycle patches.

So CMA, you know, they get involved with a lot of things. And as you go up,

I would say CMA is kind of, as you look at the whole ministry to the biker community, they would typically be more the people that would minister to just the average biker kind of guy, who is not involved in any club, and is just out there riding, and they come along them, and they would probably interact with that person.

And then you have what's called motorcycle ministries, and again, these are all kind of official designations within the motorcycle community.

And motorcycle ministries are a little bit more involved. You know, they try to do their part in being more involved with maybe a little bit of the more rougher crowd, but still they typically stay at a particular distance from them, and just mingle of sorts.

And then you have what I was involved with in Arizona to start with, which was a

Christian motorcycle club. And even within that group of people, there is a spread of what each group would do as far as their ministry goes.

So I typically was one that got extremely involved with the more hardcore motorcycle clubs.

And in doing that, I would say most Christians aren't typically capable of ministering to that type of group of people effectively, just because of the involvement you have to have.

You may be aware there's this kind of saying from C .T.'s stud, some want to live within the sound of church or chapel bell,

I want to run a rescue shop within a yard of hell. So there's this saying, and one of the groups that's a motorcycle ministry uses that.

And I would say, yes, there's definitely a place to minister outside that yard from somebody who can be very dangerous, we'll say.

But I was a type of person that I was typically right up to the line. I mean, there was no yard for me.

It was me on the battlefield at the front lines interacting with people in a way in which

I feel that God was going to move through that. And even at times, you know, people say, you know, you can't cross that line, you can't cross that line.

But I always look at it as like a war. You know, Christians are really in a war against, you know, evil.

And so I look at a battlefield, we'll say, and typically you have people on the front line.

And then you have people towards the rear that support the front line. Well, the only way you're going to win in that war is by constantly crossing the line onto the enemy side.

And as you do that, you're gaining ground and traction in what it is you're doing. Now, this doesn't mean sin.

Sin's not involved with this. I'm a Christian and I'm accountable. So it's never to the point of sin, but it is crossing boundaries in which the typical

Christian would probably not have the gifts to do or the ability to do because of the environment that's in.

Well, tell us exactly what you mean by that. Give us some examples. Okay, well,

I have to tell you, first off, that I can't mention the names of these motorcycle clubs.

It's just, it's never a good thing to do that. So I won't do that. Right, I understand. But what I'll tell you is this.

Yeah. In Arizona, what would be considered the main club there, I formed this

Christian motorcycle club called Blood Bob. And so we developed close relationships with them in which

I think we were able to work in ways in which other groups couldn't.

And those other groups realized that fairly quickly once we came on the scene and they saw us ministering.

And again, ministering isn't always sharing the gospel right off. I believe that sometimes there needs to be a process that unfolds.

I think sometimes you have to begin to earn people's trust in a way, especially with a group like this.

And then once you earn their trust, typically, then at that point, you could lead into things like the gospel.

And one of the presidents of this club, which is considered to be one of the top five most ruthless motorcycle clubs in the country,

I used to go to his house every week and teach a Bible study. Now, there was only a few people that would come for that.

But again, just to be able to do that is unheard of in this motorcycle community.

And so in Arizona, that's what it was. But I'll tell you this. The ministry and the mission, you know, there were times where I had, say, 10 to 15 men who were part of the ministry.

And to me, the ministry was always the tool used to really build the men up to be better Christians, more

Christlike Christians, live their life in a less fearful way.

And so to the people that were part of my ministry, they didn't realize this, but it was just me discipling them.

That's the way I looked at it. Again, we did the ministry, and that was our mission field. But what they didn't realize, to me, they were my mission field.

And I was doing what was done to me. I was teaching them every week, building them up, giving them a solid foundation in Scripture, because I believe that we're called, obviously, to replicate.

And I don't think that happens enough these days. I don't think Christians are replicating like they used to, which is why the numbers are so low these days.

But I always believed in replication because, again, that's what happened to me.

Again, I was discipled, thus I disciple others. So there's one example of that.

But again, going to what would be called their clubhouse, you know, again, there's a lot of bad things that have happened in some of these clubhouses over the years.

And again, it would be something that most of these other Christian organizations typically wouldn't step into because of that.

And there's always a chance that things can go wrong and things could escalate into some violence.

That's always the case. But again, missionary work isn't necessarily safe.

So you just have to take that into consideration when you're out there doing these things. Well, you said there was a period of time, just like any other mission field, there are

Christians who, according to their evangelism strategy, would say that we should try our best to befriend this group of people, no matter who they are, by not necessarily immediately beating them over the head with the

Bible, but doing acts of kindness and all that kind of thing. What would it be that you would be doing for any particular biker group to grow in their trust and acceptance of you?

And also, while I'm at it, I might as well ask, what would be things to avoid?

I'm assuming, like some other groups, especially those that may have a reputation, either real or imagined, of being dangerous, that you have to be careful not to be a poser.

I know that there are groups, even outside the biker community, that they have an intense dislike for people trying to look and act like them in public when they're not really a part of that, almost akin to a guy putting on a military uniform with medals who had never been in the military before.

Sounds like you're well -versed at this, almost. Well, I even remember, as a young man, wearing a motorcycle jacket, just because I thought it looked cool.

Didn't own a motorcycle. Right. But I remember, in a couple of clubs—and I'm speaking about before my salvation—entering a couple of clubs, and on a couple of occasions, there were a couple of bikers who approached me, and they were asking me who

I ride with. And I was telling them that I didn't ride with anybody, and they didn't believe me, and I was starting to get nervous.

But then it just kind of blew over, and they left me alone. So tell me about that.

Tell me about the whole thing, about how do you win over these people without being a poser, without—what are the key things that you wouldn't do to immediately have them distrust you or have no interest in hearing what you have to say, etc.?

Yeah. You know, these people typically have this great awareness of people who are genuine.

They typically will say this. They don't care what you believe in, what your club's about, but what they expect is that whatever you say you're about, you better be about, or else there's going to be problems.

So the difference would be this. I guess I think it really is all in the approach. When you come off,

I think, sometimes a little bit unsecure, a little bit fearful, you just are a little bit standoffish, which most of these

Christian motorcycle organizations typically do, and they show no interest in really any progression, typically they'll just be on the outskirts.

They'll be welcomed on certain things, and yes, they'll be treated nicely just because they're in the motorcycle community, all that kind of stuff.

But, again, I think it's in the approach. You know, and I say this all the time.

I say this not only about groups of people. I say this about the church too, that people could tell when there's a reason not to—there's a reason maybe that you're not quite comfortable and maybe you're apprehensive and you're not quite genuine with them.

People could tell that. I mean, people, even churches, again, you could say all you want, oh, yes, in our church we love everybody and everybody's welcome, and you could say that as a believer too.

I love everybody, but I think there's a point in which, you know, that it has to be shown in a way which they accept.

Now, for instance, here's something that happened at one time which

I think helped us. We were already well -established at that time, but the president of the club was going to get married.

And so he knew that I did photography, and so I offered my photography services.

I said, hey, brother, as a motorcycle rider, I will come to your wedding, and I'll take all your pictures for you, no cost.

We'll just get them done. I'm happy you're getting married. And then I knew one of my other guys.

He did actually be officiating of that wedding. And so, again, we are showing them that we care enough about them to give our time and our energy to them.

Now, again, it's no different than, I would say, any other friendship. You're building and developing a relationship in which you're forming trust.

Most of the other Christian organizations typically – I won't say all of them – but typically don't go to that extent to go out of their way to help them in personal areas of their life.

And so, again, that to me is one of the ways we approach them as far as making quality connections with them.

And, again, I think that's just one of the things. I just think that that's the way you have to be.

Again, I always say, as a Christian, that we are obviously – listen, we love

God with all our mind, soul, and heart. We are supposed to love others as ourself. And so you have to show that, though.

You can't just say these things because words are meaningless, especially to these people. You have to show that you are true to who you are.

If you say you're a Christian, they want to see some examples of that happening.

And, again, if you start to do that, typically you start to gain their trust, and you get closer and closer and closer to the point in which you're now invited to maybe more things that are limited to how many people come to their clubhouse for a particular situation.

In fact, we're going to pick up right where you left off there, and it actually reminded me of my training as a radio advertising salesperson.

And I was told, and I think very accurately told, your main goal when approaching an advertising client is to become so accepted by him and his company that you are invited to the

Christmas party. So that kind of sounds like a parallel. There you go.

It's chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least.

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We are now back with Zach Symes. We are discussing making the biker community a mission field.

Our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And before the break, Zach, you were talking about how a strategy of yours and perhaps many other

Christians who views the biker community as a mission field is that you should win their trust, win their friendship, before you start hitting them over the head with the

Bible. And tell us more about that as far as we already were discussing things you shouldn't do perhaps, and you could continue on that as well, but also what do you do?

Do you bring refreshments? And also I do remember that you offered your photography services to them.

And that kind of thing. I can imagine that it could also be very dangerous to be walking around with a camera in a very violent organization.

But tell us, just pick up where you left off there. Sure. I guess you could only be walking around with that camera if there's a certain amount of trust that's already been built up, correct?

So that's, I think, the case is the work had already been done to a large extent to get to that point.

But it's like, listen, it's like any other relationship you're building with somebody. You know, it's got to be honest.

And, again, I think these groups of people, men, are very attuned to when something's not real.

And, again, they sense that, and they know if you're being genuine or not because they see so many people being fake and just being nice.

In fact, it reminds me of a pastor that I know. Right now he is on the staff of a parachurch ministry.

He is no longer pastoring. But when he was pastoring, he was pastoring in Laredo, Texas. And a member of a very notorious, infamous

Hispanic gang started visiting the worship services there.

I think it's because he liked a woman that was there or something to that effect.

He wound up getting saved, and he wanted to leave the gang.

The gang was giving his approval as long as his testimony of salvation was real.

And what happened was they sent somebody from the gang to view, observe him at these worship services.

That guy wound up getting saved. And that's the way it happens, right?

But it seems to be parallel to what you were talking about, how they want to see if you're for real.

And I'm assuming you're hanging around with these unsaved bikers who may be involved in criminal activity.

What do you say when they ask you, what are you doing here? What's your story? What are you hanging around with us for?

Yeah, you know, that's a good question.

Again, I don't know if anybody has ever asked me that as far as one of these clubs.

Really? Because, again, things are you – yeah, I know, it's funny, right? But, again, I think things happen at such a slow pace in which you're developing these relationships over years that they will let you in slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly.

And now it's been four or five years gone by. And now you're tight, so to speak.

You're welcome within their club to the point in which, again, if they have just a club party, a barbecue or whatever, and it's just them, you're always welcome.

You're one of the few clubs that's always welcome. So it's such a gradual thing.

Again, mission work is never quick. If you plan on it being quick, you're looking at it all wrong.

I've been here in Appalachia for nine years, and I can tell you this is the slowest mission work has ever gone for me.

But it just takes time, and you can't rush it, and you can't be impatient, and you've got to continually be nurturing it as you go along.

So, again, I think that's with anything. Yeah, and by the way,

I just have to tell this joke before I forget it. Sure. This story,

I was interviewing on the old Iron Trip and Zion radio show when I was broadcasting out of WNYG in Babylon, Long Island.

I was interviewing a former member of a Hispanic gang in prison who got saved in prison and actually married his

Christian wife who was a friend of his mother. He married her in prison when she knew that he had truly repented and so on, and the warden actually performed the ceremony.

The warden had become very fond of this guy, but he was sitting right next to me in the studio, and I said to him while I was interviewing him, you know,

I used to be in a gang when I was a younger man, and his eyes lit up, and he leaned forward.

Really? I said, yeah, we were called the Calvinist Crusaders, and he said, really?

I said, yeah, we used to break into Arminian churches and rewrite the words in their hymnals.

That's funny. We should do that, though. I think that's a good thing to do. But let me take one.

So, again, the process is extremely slow. Yeah. Let me take one listener question here, and just as I thought, this listener is remaining anonymous, just like I'm expecting this will happen.

This anonymous listener says, one thing that I have come to realize with some of my friends who are in Christian biker clubs is that very often they are so involved with other activities in the club that they rarely show up in a church where they are to be held accountable and have the oversight of elders.

Is this a rampant problem, or is this something that I am just witnessing? I think it would depend on your location.

I think that the majority of the events that happen in Phoenix, and, again,

Phoenix being 5 million people, there's probably, oh,

I don't know, probably 40 clubs throughout Arizona and the large majority of them in Phoenix, and so there's always something going on.

But typically it didn't rarely happen on Sundays. But, again, that would be depending on probably your location and what those groups decide to do and the times in which they hold them.

But Phoenix was such a busy area that literally every night of the week as well one of the clubs was having something going on at their clubhouse.

And so there was always an opportunity because if you went there, then chances are the bigger clubs would show up as well.

But on occasion, and, again, I would say just on occasion, there were opportunities where we said, listen, this doesn't happen all the time, and it's just important for us to miss

Church's Sunday to do this. And, again, I think that's with anything, though.

I would say this. Whenever time was taken away doing ministry, there were plenty of people throughout the church that were spending that time on vacation, even more time.

So we would only leave for extremely important situations and events. Yeah, that's good.

We have to go to… That's a great question. Yeah. And, by the way, Anonymous, thanks to the generosity of our guest today,

Zach Sines, you have won a free copy of his book, A Biker's Look at Romans.

So, obviously, you're going to have to email me your full name and mailing address. It won't be disclosed over the air, obviously.

And we will have Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, ship that book out to you.

And if you are a first -time questioner, you'll also receive a free New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the

NASB. We're going to be right back after these messages. Keep in mind, folks, that the middle break is typically a bit longer than the other breaks because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program, is required by the FCC to localize this program and all of their programming geographically to Lake City, Florida.

And they do that by airing their own public service announcements and other local things during the broadcast. And it just so happens they do that in the middle of the show.

We simultaneously, however, air our globally heard commercials. So use this time wisely.

Write down as much of the contact information for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

And we hope that you will often buy their products, use their services, support their parachurch organizations, and visit their churches.

But when you can't do any of that, there's one thing that you definitely can do. If you really love this show and you're grateful that there are those out there sharing their wealth with us so that we can remain on the air, thank our advertisers for it.

Thank them for sponsoring Iron Trip and Zion Radio just by contacting them with the information they put in their ads.

So that's something everyone can do if you truly are grateful that there are supporters of this program.

And also, send in your questions to Zach Sines, to chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Zach Sines right after these messages.

James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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Before I return to my guest today, Zach Sines and our discussion on making the biker community a mission field.

I just have a couple of very important announcements to make. Folks, if you love the show, you don't want the show to disappear, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

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So send me that email to chrisarnzen at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line. Also, I want to let you folks know about a very important Bible conference that's coming up March 3rd through the 5th, so that's going to be right around the corner.

This is the first annual First Love Ministries Bible Conference in Milton, Florida, being held at First Baptist Church of Baghdad in Milton, Florida.

My friend Pastor Joe Jackowitz, founder of First Love Ministries, is one of the speakers, and there's a whole long roster of excellent speakers on that list.

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First Love Ministries Bible Conference, on the theme of the new birth, by the way, examining the new birth.

Go to firstloveministries .org, firstloveministries .org. Last but not least, if you do not have a church home that is

Christ -honoring, biblically faithful, theologically sound, and doctrinally solid, no matter where on the planet

Earth you live, I may be able to help you find a church, and I have helped people in our audience from all parts of the world on occasion find churches that are only a couple of minutes from where they live.

So that could be you, no matter where you live. I have extensive lists of faithful churches spanning the globe.

So who knows? I may know of one that's right near you, wherever you live. Send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to Zach Sines.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

We have a question from Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania.

Are you there, Zach? For some reason, I think Zach is still muted.

Are you there, Zach? No, I'm back. Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania wants to know, do you counsel those involved in this kind of ministry about the danger of motives for being in such a ministry?

There are men who are fully aware that women, both those in the church and outside the church, love bad boys.

That's, I think, a tragic reality that a Christian, God -fearing, Bible -loving,

Christ -loving woman would love or be attracted to a bad boy, and being a poser of bikers would be very much in harmony with that.

You want to look like you're dangerous, etc. Isn't that a danger of sinning in that way, and do you warn men about that?

Yeah, you know, again, as a ministry leader, just like being a pastor, you have to know the people,

I think, that are part of your ministry, a part of your church, hopefully well enough, and again, in bigger churches this can happen, to know what their limitations are.

And again, this is, to me, more of a discipleship program for men that I recognize need to be built up into stronger biblical men.

So, in saying that, I have a responsibility over everybody that comes with us that goes to these different clubhouses and things like that.

I have a responsibility to watch over them. So, in doing that, you have to know the clubs really well, and you have to know key people in the clubs really well to make sure nothing happens as far as a physical aspect, though it could always happen.

But as far as lusting and things like that, yeah, you know, again, I tell all my guys, and again,

I get to know them well, you know, if you have an alcohol problem, hey, stay outside the clubhouse.

There's plenty of people out there hanging around you could talk to and develop relationships with. If, you know, if there's something going on inside that, you know, in any way could challenge your faith, stay outside.

Again, stay outside, and I get to know them well enough where I will tell them sometimes, hey, you stay outside, stay with the bikes, you two.

There's, you know, a bunch of other prospects out there with their clubs, bikes. Go talk to them and, you know, develop some relationships there.

Typically, those relationships that are built with the new people that come into clubs, prospects, when you treat them really well, typically, when that person becomes a full -patch member, or maybe even hopefully one day the president of that club, they remember that.

They remember how you treated them. So, in all these situations, it's no different than anything else. Look, I'm not going to say that this is for everybody because it's not.

And I'm not going to say that this is a safe ministry or mission to be in because it's not. I've been surrounded by club members on numerous occasions.

And, again, it's a form of them testing you. You know, you get five or six big, burly guys, and I'm not a small guy, and I think that probably had a lot to do with being accepted.

You know, I'm six foot, 220 pounds, and, you know, I'm a big guy, muscular guy.

But there are times in which they will test you. And the testing is surrounding you, getting you away from your other guys, being threatening to you to see how you'll respond to that.

And, again, this isn't for everybody. And I can tell you, as far as me, I don't have typically any fear.

So when that happened to me, you know, it's pretty common that I'll just look whoever's the lead guy in your eyes, and I'll just say, here

I am. What do you want to do? Here I am. You know, and, again, I think that's part of the acceptance.

And, again, this has happened with more than one club. I don't have any problems standing toe -to -toe with guys and saying, you want to test me?

Here I am. Luckily, it's never transpired into something beyond that point.

But if you go to the Middle East, you know, if you go to certain parts of South America, you go to Russia, places like that, it's dangerous.

It's dangerous. So this ministry isn't for the weak -minded or even sometimes the physically weak.

You know, this is a ministry in which you should know yourself very well.

In 1 Corinthians 9, Paul says, Be all things to all people, and he goes through this list. I don't think he's telling us to make sure that we know each culture around us well.

I think what he's saying is whatever culture you decide to go into, that you better know yourself.

You better know your capabilities. You better know your gifts. And, again, you have to be prepared to do this kind of ministry at this level.

It's not the type of ministry you could just come into and think that you're going to have any success right off the bat.

It takes years to do this. And for all the new guys that come in or that came in to my club,

I would tell them right off, say nothing. Don't look at anybody directly.

Take off your hat and your sunglasses because they want to see your eyes. Take off gloves if you have them on because if somebody wants to shake your hand, it's an insult to shake their hand with a glove on.

Again, this is no different than any other missionary field in which there's training involved.

Again, you go to any place in the world to do missions, there's a requirement of training that goes into that.

This is no different. There's a requirement of training in which that new person coming in needs to be built up in a way in which there is the least amount chance of failure there can be or violence put upon that person there could be.

All my guys knew when we would go to a clubhouse, and again, there were more clubhouses that were more threatening than others, they all knew, and I would tell them going in,

I don't want anybody out of line of sight with me because things go sideways quick in these places.

I mean, we've been to clubhouses where if we didn't leave there right now, there was one shootout in which

I think one person was killed and three other people were shot. What only saved us was me understanding and seeing the tensions around us and knowing when to say, let's go now.

And my guys knew, you keep in the line of sight. There were clubhouses that we went to, speaking on the women aspect of it, in which we would develop relationships with enough to bring some of the women who we did consider important parts of the ministry in order to then socialize with the women in that club because, you know, typically there's a lot of problems in that type of scenario in club life.

There's a lot of problems, not only with the guys but with the women as well. It could be drugs, it could be alcohol, it could be violence, whatever it is, there's problems.

And so there's a certain amount of training that needs to go into the women as well as far as what they need to know to handle themselves properly and not get in any trouble.

So, again, you know, do I say for everybody, hey, yeah, you should become part of this type of mission work?

No, because, again, this is a small, this is a minority of Christians, probably a small minority of Christians in which can be in this missionary field and have not only what hopes to be success but not having the life beaten out of you as well.

Again, this can be an extremely dangerous place to be. So I don't want to give anybody the impression that, you know, everything is roses.

It's not. It's not. Not at all. And it is not a safe place.

And, again, husbands have to know their wives well in order to bring them into the ministry.

I have to know them well. So typically anybody that was part of us, you know, the mandatory thing was you had to come to all the

Bible studies. You had to spend, you know, a good amount of time with us in order to, you know, for me to kind of see who you are and how you act.

And I've just been really good with kind of seeing in people who they are. It's kind of a gift

I've been given. And, again, it's kept me and a lot of my people out of trouble. But you have to just be able to have the gifts in order to see who people are, to trust enough to bring them into that situation to begin with.

Again, it's important to know. I don't care what missionary field you go into. I don't even care. Listen, life is a missionary journey for every

Christian. If you don't think you're a missionary, I don't, you know, again, I don't know how you say you're a

Christian. We are called to be out in the world, and that's anywhere in the world.

That could be your next door neighbor, or that could be, you know, a motorcycle club, or that could be, you know, Middle East or North Africa or wherever it is.

Everybody is called to be a missionary in some form or another. And it's important that you know who you are.

And I would give the same, you know, thing to a church, the same statement.

I was part of a church in Arizona in which the first church

I actually went to was a church that was sent out to plant a church at Arizona State University.

And so it was very intentional. You know, we knew who the people were that we wanted to minister to.

And so that was our focus was that. Again, it's the same way in any missionary field.

You have to know the people that you're going to be ministering to. So within that, we were very lucky.

We had a gifted pastor at the time. And we, I think, built up our church from about 25 people to start to roughly,

I don't know, 700 or 800 people in the first year. And then there was a point in which the pastor had stepped down.

And I don't really think it had everything to do with him, but he just felt it was the best thing to do.

But in any case, we had gotten a new pastor. And part of the requirement when we were looking for a new pastor was that you have an interest in this outreach ministry to Arizona State University, in which this person said they did.

Well, that changed pretty quickly. And so when I realized and when they had kind of verbally said that we're going in a new direction,

I made a statement in which nobody understood. And again, having been in ministry,

I think it's an important thing to ask yourself as a church as well. Who are the people you're seeking?

And again, usually the response is, we want all people to come here, you know, which is nice to say, but the reality is that's not going to happen.

The reality is, is not only as individuals do we have certain gifts and things about us that make us maybe more successful in some ministry or mission.

The church is no different. And this is what I said to the new pastor. I said, everything this church does, from how you preach to the color on the walls, affects who is going to come into this church.

Now, I know, I know we wish that wasn't the case, right? We all say that.

Well, that's not the reason why you go to church because of color on the walls. No, it's not why you go to church because of the people that treat you bad in there.

No, but the reality is as human beings, we tend to have things built into us that attract us to certain churches.

And I, you know, again, his response is we want to reach out to everybody. And I would say, okay, that's great.

But we had a mission of reaching out to ASU students, and we're very successful at that. It sounds like you have no direction.

And again, that's exactly what I said to him, because the reality is he didn't have any direction of where we're going to go for church.

You can't just have this broad stroke and say, we're going to, you know, we want everybody to come in here.

No, we're not going to go out to anybody, but we want everybody to come here. Again, that's not how it works. It would be so nice if we could just, you know, plant a church and not think about anything, and it just be filled up, every single church.

That's not the way it works. It's a lot of hard work. And again, our ministry in Phoenix led up to us planting a church and having a church for three years until the housing market crashed there.

But again, you know, this stuff, whether it be church or whether it be missions or whether it be ministry, you have to be intentional.

I mean, you just do. Paul was very intentional in everything he did, and I think that's why his comments in 1

Corinthians 9, I think that's what he's talking about, you know. You better know who you're going to.

You better know who you're here for. You know, that better be intentional.

What's your intent? Do you know who you are? Do you know who you are as a church? Do you know who you are as a person? Do you know your capabilities?

Do you know your lackings? Again, these are all things that everybody needs to think about, and when you don't, when you're not intentional and you don't know who you are as a person or you don't know who you are as a church, it becomes very difficult to be successful in the

Christian field. It just does. All these things have to be thought about. And so, again, with every ministry you're in, there's a thousand things to think about.

And it's the person who is the overseer, again, whether it be a ministry, whether it be missionary work, whether it be a church,

I say they're all kind of the same to a certain extent.

You know, again, there's a lot of responsibility in that, and not just anybody can do it. Again, you have to have the right gifts and the right talents.

And the right smarts and everything else that go along with it to be able to lead a group of people and hopefully

God be successful through that. So that's a short answer, huh?

I want to revisit Arnie's question after I read another question that actually hinges on exactly what you were talking about.

We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, who asked, to your knowledge, have

Christians ever been physically harmed or worse by mixing with dangerous biker clubs during evangelistic efforts?

You know, I haven't seen it personally. Oh, actually,

I did once. Yeah, there was this guy, I won't say the organization or the

Christian motorcycle club he was a part of, but he was very disliked.

And again, that comes down to these people are really good at seeing through people.

They didn't like his super -lapsarianism? They didn't like his super -lapsarianism? I'm only kidding.

I don't know what they didn't like about him, but, well, I probably do. He just wasn't genuine, you know, and again, they see through that in a second.

So him and his – he had come into this event, which was probably about 20 clubs that day, and, you know, word got around, hey, he's here.

And so it wasn't very long after that. They pretty much chased him out of there, and he got out of there before they got a hold of him.

What they would have done to him, I don't know. Whether they would have actually been physical to him or not,

I don't know. But again, it's dangerous out there. You know, again, it's dangerous if you're trying to talk to Muslims in North Africa.

It's dangerous if you go to, you know, Iran and try to preach the gospel. Yeah, you know,

I mean, look at Paul. Paul was, you know, how many times was he beaten and stoned and all these things?

It's not for everybody. Can it happen? Yeah. Has it happened? Probably, yeah.

But that's just part of it. You know, are you ready to give everything to the glory of God and to the service of Christ?

And again, that looks differently for a lot of different people. But for me, my everything is if harm comes to me, it comes to me.

You know, again, I'm not afraid of that. I'm a stage four cancer survivor. Yeah, I'm not afraid of much.

And I wasn't afraid of much before that. So, you know, you're doing it for the right reason.

Can you be killed? Can you be beaten up? You know, yeah, yeah, you can. You can.

And again, whoever's running the show better have enough insight into what's going on around them that he sees it coming before it actually happens.

Well, thank you, Cindy and Finley Ohio. And please give us your mailing address, because you have also won a free copy of the book.

We have been discussing a biker's look at Romans and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CBBBS .com.

We'll ship that out to you. I'm going back to Arnie and Perry County's question, which actually started.

Sure. I believe. And Arnie, if he wants to correct me, if I'm misunderstanding his question, he can chime in with another email.

Temptation. But, yeah, I think what he was talking about is the danger.

I'm not talking about physical danger, necessarily. Or Arnie was likely the danger of a desire to appear as a as a wicked person, because, you know, there is an element of the opposite sex who enjoys that, even in the church.

I mean, I've even had conversations with women who love the bad boy. And that's that's that's to be attracted to something that is the personification of violence and sexual looseness to give other parallels, just like there are some women.

I know that some women dress provocatively out of naivete, but there are also some,

I believe, who are dressing that way because they want men to question their chastity or whatever.

And even I remember as a young Christian man going to a lot of Christian rock concerts.

And there were certain groups that intentionally appeared androgynous and effeminate, which would be obviously the polar opposite thing to a biker.

But they were trying to appeal to the crowd by by by appearing in a way that is ungodly, you know, with women's face makeup and false eyelashes and skin tight spandex.

So, you know, what I'm talking about or what's likely as far as the point of dressing like a hardcore biker in order to then go out into the motorcycle club world to hopefully hook up with one of the women that's there.

You know, again, that's yeah, I would say I would spot that problem right off. And I'll be honest with you.

Typically, there weren't too many single people involved with my ministry. I usually was the only one who was honestly.

So but but in saying that, obviously, that's not the intention.

Now, do you do you dress in Muslim garb when you go to a

Muslim country in the hopes of hooking up with some woman there? I mean, no. So, you know, again, it's kind of the same thing, you know, because of women over there would be attracted to you dressing up in some

Muslim garb. Again, that's that's not the reason why you do it. And again,

I, I think I have a very good eye to see through people that are not right for the ministry that are doing that, whether whether it be doing that or whether it be, you know,

I catch a whiff of them doing some drugs or drinking alcohol. Not that I'm necessarily against drinking alcohol.

It's just, you know, if I smell booze on your breath and we're going out to some motorcycle club and, you know, depending on where you are in the country in Arizona, they expect that if you're a

Christian, they don't want to see you drinking. That's the way it is there here where I'm at now in southwest

Virginia. They don't necessarily care. But again, you again, it's all comes down to being a good leader who is qualified and is gifted with the right things in order to see through the people you're bringing in to the ministry.

We have Joseph and South Central Pennsylvania.

Oh, by the way, Marnie, you've also won a free copy of a biker's look at Romans.

So make sure we have your full mailing address that Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVVVS .com and ship that out to you.

Joseph and South Central Pennsylvania asked, was there ever an occasion or maybe even more than one when you and your

Christian evangelists had to get up and walk out of a certain biker event because there was possibly public sex going on or the doing of drugs, et cetera?

No, only violence as far as public sex.

No drugs. No, it's the clubs are being looked at so severely these days that most of these clubs honestly have a general rule.

No drugs in a clubhouse because they know that they're constantly being watched.

So that goes that's as far as drugs. Would there be possibly public sex?

I don't you know, I would say that we usually get out of there well enough before they're that drunk where that may happen.

So, but again, you know, you have to be careful with everything and I'll say this, you know, besides what

I already said about being surrounded by certain clubs and certain club members in order to be tested.

Because of my close connections with. These 2 motorcycle clubs

I've spent 20 years with. I am now myself on what's called the gang task force list, and it's very difficult me to go to some countries.

I had was going to go to Canada for a friend of mine's wedding from church. And so when

I went to go through the crossing to Canada, I was detained.

And the 1st question that was asked to me was, are you still part of the motorcycle club? And I said, well, it's a

Christian motorcycle club. He said, that's not the question. I said, yeah, I am. He said, all right, he goes,

I need you to come into this room with me. And I was detained for probably about an hour and a half in which

I had to get onto the phone with a supervisor down in San Francisco or L .A.

and talk to her for that entire time on and off. As she was searching through my background to try to determine whether they were going to let me in or not.

And eventually they did. And I asked the guy and the guy said, he says,

I'm a Christian. I said, so does this happen a lot? He said, yeah. I said, how often do they turn people away?

He goes, you're the first I've seen that they haven't turned away. I would assume that Canada is probably more upset that you're a

Christian biker than a dangerous biker. Well, that's probably the case.

Right. But again, this all comes with the territory. If you're not willing to give your all for the work of Christ, again,

I don't know what to say to that. And again, I think Christianity, I'll be honest with you,

I don't care what church you go to. I don't care if you're reformed or you're not reformed.

I think Christians have lost that drive to give it all for Christ.

I think that they're not intentional. I think that they don't know who they are and what their calling is.

I think that they're fearful. I think that they lack faith and that I've seen even reformed people that have come up with an idea about doing some sort of evangelism.

Give me so many excuses, pastors included, reformed pastors, of why we have to wait and why we can't do it and why this and why that.

And lost the opportunity to another church who God then said, OK, I'll give it to this church.

And literally two weeks after this pastor came up with the idea of doing it, but not following through, a church down the street had the same drive given to them to do this.

And they did it. Again, I think Christians at this time in history are at the weakest they've ever been.

And I don't know how to change what's part of my ministry, was taking men who just needed some guidance, some proper teaching, someone to show them this is how it's done.

You know, like Paul did with Timothy, you know, and donate and give my time and my effort into them.

In fact, Zach, we've got to go to our final break right now. I think there's enough people doing that. We're going to pick up right where you left off.

We have to go to our final break right now. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back. And, Zach, we have CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who asks,

Has there been a considerable number of bikers, especially those in the criminal gangs, who have come to Christ?

Well, as we know, again, it's not always easy to measure that.

You know, we always say, you know, we're planting seeds, which I think is the truth in many cases.

But, you know, I could think of a couple that I know of for sure, and I would say if there's one, even over 15 years of work in Arizona, that it was well worth it.

Again, it's a process in which we don't know we see the end result of, but we just have to be diligent in doing what we're called to do.

I mean, I think that's the root of everything. Does it matter? That's not for me, you know, that's not for me to know, maybe.

I'm just called to do what Scripture says I'm called to do and what every Christian is called to do, and the outcome of that may be that God draws that person to Him, and maybe not.

But again, that's not my concern. My concern is only that I, as a Christian, do what

I am called to do based upon what Scripture tells me. And what I want to say is this, too.

Go ahead. Go ahead. Just finish what you have to say, because we're running out of time. Okay.

I want to say this. Everything I did was intentional, and part of that intention at the end was planting a church.

And you had mentioned parachurches, and I know a lot of people don't like parachurches, but what I would say is this.

The parachurch really is probably doing the heaviest lifting out of all the churches, and it's a much -needed thing.

Regular churches are not going to be where the lowest of the low people, so to speak, are going to go.

And planting the church in Phoenix, what we saw blossom from that was not just hardcore bikers, but we saw so many people coming to our church that just felt like the church that they were going to wasn't loving them, wasn't caring for them, that they were looked down upon, all these types of things you hear.

You know, there's a reality out there of that. So parachurches serve a great need.

And please give our listeners any contact information that you care to share, if you do want to share that information.

Yes, sir. You can always find me on a Bikers Look. That's the web address for my webpage there.

You could also find my book on Amazon. I would appreciate if you go there again.

And maybe not only for you, but maybe you have somebody that you want to give the

Reformed perspective to in a very kind of down -to -earth way.

But, you know, do that as well. It would be very much appreciated. And his name, by the way, my guest's name is spelled

Z -A -K, S as in Sam, A -E -N as in Nancy, Z as in zebra.

Thank you so much for being such an excellent guest today. Thank you, everybody, who listened. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater