Bart Ehrman

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

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James White And good afternoon, welcome to the Thursday edition of the dividing line

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Today driven by your calls at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1

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Think about an email I attacked my inbox today, you know how some days you just feel like cleaning

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And I just I just attacked that thing and I got it down. There are currently three emails in my inbox

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Which they were like after I deleted all the garbage out once I could finally get a connection again they're like 86 and I got it down to two three and so One of them

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I Did I you know, I just realized I did I did respond to it, but only very very briefly

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I had mentioned somebody one of the comm box comments over at Steve Ray Steve Ray's blog site and I Guess he wrote in I don't know if it was

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No, it couldn't have been while we were gone because it was forwarded from you So it had to have been before we left but it must have been right in the few days

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Those few days become a blur you're doing so much stuff. You can't keep up with stuff. Anyway, it was Roman Catholic fellow and He had made some snide remark about me on Steve Ray's blog and so I'd made some comment about what he'd said

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So he writes this long thing where he's psychoanalyzing me. I just love

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You know, I get so much free psychoanalysis None of them end up, you know really overly helpful, but I get a lot of free psychoanalysis from lots of folks and and People have never actually met me or know anything about me and they figure they can just judge you by a debate

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Which is really you know debates when you're a debate That's exactly how you always are in your in your life

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And and it's real real easy to make those kinds of decisions on the base of that anyways

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But he was he was talking to me about just just how bad I am and Things like that.

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So I just wrote back and thanked him for for his deep psychoanalysis What did that have to do with this?

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How did I get? I Haven't a clue

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How we got on that? Yes, you get what you pay for him you Tato just inform you you get what you pay for And yeah, and I paid for those things by the way,

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I finally as I mentioned last time Did I have something to do with phone calls?

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I said we're gonna we're gonna oh, that's right. That's right. Okay, but make the connection here I guess

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I had said something about launch call in and back up what you got to say or something like that and he was basically stating that obviously

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He couldn't find us on any of the radio stations in, Minnesota Nothing like well, you know

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The website makes it sort of plain that we aren't on them by our them by our radio stations

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So that that would explain what what that is. So So that's probably why he won't be calling.

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But anyway, that's that's neither here nor there My notes did arrive for those of you who were listening to the last program

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But there's not that many of them for those of you on the dr. O 24 -7 webcam

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Which costs exactly how much nothing That's because it only sends up an image

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Seconds, it's not exactly what we would call a live feed in that way someday

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We will we will get it figured out, but I'm showing to the webcam now My my note page.

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I only had one page of notes outside of what was on the on the tablet before it croaked and So I was looking at some of these things.

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There are some of them. I Can't even honestly, I suppose if I was watching the debate, which

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I have seen a few portions of it It looks looks good on the screen It I mentioned to someone today.

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I think to to go to old Roger Brazier over in over in Shelly old London That's it looks exactly like the

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John Dominic crossing debate except crossing and should It looks just like the crossing debate except not

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Might be the way to put it but exact same spot anyway as as the crossing debate was but it looks good

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I suppose I was watching it. Some of these might make sense like there's poor slash blood on The in the column there.

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I haven't a clue what that was. But anyway Let's see. We have the claim that the

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Quran allows for Jesus to have been put on the cross. Well, I Realize that Shabir Ali has now responded to my brief comments on the blog and I have begun responding to him now and that's gonna be one of the key issues is

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Dealing with that particular thing be very easy for me to you know point out that he's in a minority But he already admits he is so it's not all that big of a deal

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This one I did not get to and I even had a little circle next to it Which means I failed to get to it just one of those One of the things that guy said to me was

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I've never heard you say you've ever made a mistake Well a couple things if all you've ever listened to his debates, is that generally what you're doing debates?

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It's going to debate. Let me tell you something folks. I have made so many mistakes Let me tell you you should believe me because I just can't get anything right?

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You know, is that is that really what? Anyway, I don't know but I didn't get to this one

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That's a failure on my part when I make a note and put a little circle next to it What's that's telling me is try to work this in somehow some way

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Didn't get to it. This was an interesting statement. He may he went after Hebrews I guess

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I addressed this in the blog, but I really didn't get into it in the debate He addressed

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Hebrews and the fact that Hebrews is so not so we don't know who wrote it Sudan's Sudan anonymous

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That's Pseudepig or full false pig ratings, right? We don't know who wrote it

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The funny thing is I run into a lot of Muslims who think they know who wrote it because many of them will just throw It in with Paul just at the front of it.

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But anyway and So since we don't know who wrote it then it can't possibly be inspired just by by default that's just the way it is and I explained that on the blog is to the mindset of the of the

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Muslim at that point and This is what I wrote Hebrews yet Shabir Ali cannot tell us who recorded and provided any single ayah except the few noted in Al Bukhari what

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I was referring to there Was the fact that in that tradition in Al Bukhari, which I have heard should be or quote.

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I Believe there are two ayahs Two verses in the Quran that are mentioned and actually I think one of them is a multi verse section from one of the surahs and in essence what

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Those are our ayahs that were found in the memory of a single person just one person remember this

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Other than that, so we know the exact source at least from that tradition.

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Anyways, however much weight you give that We know the exact source of where that came from but for anything else in the

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Quran are there other ayahs That were only in the memory of one person was surah for 157 in the memory of only one person since we can't find anybody else who remembered anything about it and How infallible is the recollection of that one individual and So here he's saying well, we can't trust

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Hebrews because we don't know who wrote it, but you don't know who recollected any But two of the of the sections of the

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Quran You have to believe in essence that Uthman's revision was divinely guided and inspired of itself

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And you still don't know The names of the sources. How is that consistent? Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument and later on Down at the bottom again.

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I didn't get to this one either Circular reasoning on Uthman. He never had the original

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Companions who were still alive see the contradiction what I was saying here was he made reference to the companions of the

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Prophet and how they were key in Reconstructing the text of the

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Quran, but again the the gross contradiction or inconsistency of Attributing to the companions of the

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Prophet perfect memories They have to be perfect memories he believes that it's absolutely perfect and therefore they had perfect memories

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They never failed Even though it is odd if some of those ayahs were only found the memory of one person and there were other

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People around who had heard the Prophet and they forgot that means their memories were incomplete

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But only only one guy remembered so they did forget things somehow And there had been people who had died in the battle

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Many of the Qura the readers that the memorizers the Quran had died in the battle So were there other ayahs that were lost then

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I? Mean we're just trying to be consistent here if we're gonna say you have to know who they were you have to be consistent

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Why is it that can the companions of the Prophet can be given absolute?

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perfect memories There's there's nothing about anybody trying to take over the

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Islamic movement It wasn't there a Paul I mean if Paul's gonna be this type of guy who's gonna be we're gonna going to attribute the most dastardly of Intentions to him

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I Mean well, how else can you explain it you can't I mean at one point? He did say oh, I'm sure that Paul believed what he was saying.

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What do you mean Paul believed? He was saying how could Paul believe it was saying if he made all this stuff up I mean did somebody make it up before him then who made this stuff up And why would they make it up that was one of the points?

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I was trying to make in the debate was Why in the world would anyone try to make up a religion based upon a crucified

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Messiah? That was that was the worst I mean talk about a bad marketer

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Talk about a losing proposition. It just doesn't make any sense to even begin to think that this is something that somebody would make up and Try to create some some world religion so on the one hand the companions of the

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Prophet They all have perfect memories none of them are deceived by anybody they are all you know

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Up to the time of Uthman they they do everything right, but the companions of Jesus They can't get almost anything.

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He said into writing They can't they can't fight off Paul. They can't communicate

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Jesus real teachings, which would have been nothing more than the repetitive I mean when you look at the Jesus of the

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Quran and distill his teachings In essence what they should have written down was a book that was nothing more than Pray the prayers five times a day

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Allah is your God? And there's a prophet coming after me whose name's Muhammad that that would have been about it

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But they didn't even manage to get that on paper, and it wouldn't have taken more than one piece of a pyre to get it done and They didn't do it and for 600 years

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Nobody hears anything like this, and it's funny when when people like Jamal Badawi try to appeal to the

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Gnostics They are even farther away in their view of Jesus than the Muslims. They will do that Badawi refers to him.

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You know the Basilides and and Substitution theory and all the rest of that stuff, and we need to debate those subjects, and I want to debate those subjects, but That's even farther away

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That's that's a that worldview is even farther away from the Islamic Jesus of the

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Quran Than what you have in Christianity so That that doesn't that doesn't make any sense so the the point is gross inconsistency one view for the the companions of Muhammad Completely different, and I have to ask the question

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Are you really given the exalted views of Jesus that you still have in the Quran at least you know in Islam?

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There's still you know he did miracles and things like this He spoke from his cradle as a little kid that of course comes from you know a non -historical source

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But you know the Quran accepts it and repeats it, but he speaks of the cradle. He does all these miraculous things

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Couldn't he managed to pick a group of followers at least as good as Muhammad did at least as as as faithful as Muhammad did and We know that there are people that were in you know around Muhammad that Defected and things like that and their names are not held in esteem by Muslims today

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And so why couldn't Jesus do that why couldn't you just do at least as good a job? Double standard that is used there no question about it

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He mentioned the scapegoat that did come up and cross an audience questions. We were I forget which part that it was it was part of the give -and -take

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I remember Pointing out that scapegoat was just a part of and I don't think

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I'd have to go back and listen now I Don't think he tried to sort of refute what I had pointed out and that is in his own talks

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He tries to say well the scapegoat you know Jesus isn't you know lamb of God wasn't the one that took away the sins of The world it was the scapegoat that did that and I pointed out.

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That was a real shallow reading of that text, but Scapegoat I put down Isaiah 53, and then

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I have to read through my scribble here because when I did get something Handled I had to mark it out

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So I wouldn't be looking at that and wasting time you don't have a lot of time to be reading your notes Does Shabir really think the

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Quran is inviting Christians to engage in redaction criticism? In surah 547 and I I did get a chance to make note in one of the audience questions.

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I think That it's just amazing That when the Quran Exhorts the people of the book to judge by the things contained therein that that can be turned to Judge the things contained therein

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That's two different statements if I say Well give a real -life example

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The the master of all things electronic out there in the control room looking around behind him right now

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The great disembodied voice of the dividing line who frequently fills in for the peanut gallery because of our huge studio audience that you know we frequently have here which normally has only one person in it too, but So the peanut gallery he's the man of many many hats was working on a

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DVR thing we have out here to you know keep track of our video and stuff we told you what happened on the last riding line about people prying iron bars off windows and things like that and so This you know how things come these days they come with a manual that Is either 475 pages long or it's written in English not

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English But English which is a different language it comes from Japan Or other places similar there too, and that really easy to you know

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Read so anyway he had to take it home because it's rather complicated now if I said that we are to judge the

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DVR by the things contained therein that is the Manual that's completely different than saying we are to judge the things contained in the manual

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One makes the manual the standard the other says we are somehow Analyzing the manual and judging the contents

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So it's not the same thing to read the text of surah 547 and say the people the book are to judge

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By what is contained therein and say that they are to judge the things contained therein even to the point of basically saying that the

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Quran is inviting modern Christians to examine their texts and to see what was inspired and what isn't and How does

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Shabir answer the question about what's inspired? He only he's only given one answer, and he's given a consistent answer there.

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Here's consistency. It's a consistent inconsistency Both times I've asked that question in both debates the answer has been the same what agrees with the

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Quran is inspired What doesn't isn't? That's called anachronism. That's called.

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This is my final authority. I'm gonna look back 650 some -odd years or so and I'm going to judge through what is in this text, and that's the anachronism

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It's a consistent anachronism, and it Is sort of indefensible, but that's that's what you're having to do and so clearly

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Muhammad I'm sorry, but as someone seriously gonna suggest that Muhammad was telling modern

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Christians people the book Hey, you know what engage in redaction criticism you need to look back at that book and you need to sort of take it apart and and You need to have a parallel gospel

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And you need to climb into Mark's mind and Matthew's mind Luke's mind, and you're supposed to you know

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Wait till modern naturalistic scholarship comes along and could give you all these neat ideas of what they're really trying to do and and That means so that every time a

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Christian cites a text you just simply go wow it's a later edition That's later edition. That's later edition. Do you have a manuscript everywhere anywhere that doesn't contain this no, but it's later edition

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You know that that that kind of Argumentation is is is tough

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I Did hear the audience respond to this one? It was going on and on and he talked about how

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Paul made Christianity easy on the Gentiles Christianity was easy on the

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Gentiles and what he meant was you know you didn't have all the dietary laws and evidently that comes from Paul and so when you find out in the

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Gospels, that's all from Paul to you and and You know the circumcision and the

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Sabbath regulations and Paul got rid of all that to make it more appealing to people

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Now of course the fact that they that Paul himself gets stoned But hey

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Maybe that was just made up in the process to see the wonderful thing about this kind of argumentation is

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Anything that can be cited against your thesis you just dismiss as a later accretion That well the reason that doesn't contradict my thesis is because actually that's not what happened

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Do you have any evidence of this no, but I don't have any evidence my thesis either so it You know it all goes that way yes,

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Paul was the sin and justification guy Yeah, he was the one talking about that Jesus wasn't talking about he wasn't concerned about that kind of stuff

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And then when you go to any text where Jesus is addressing that kind of stuff That's later accretion to the ball wonderfully circular argument

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It's totally irrefutable, but it's also totally improvable because you've obviously started with your conclusions and now you're just sort of spinning it around from there, so That's that's how it ends up working, so yeah, it's pretty tough.

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You make it easy on them You'll get stoned You'll you'll run afoul the

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Roman authorities. You'll be kicked out of the synagogue You'll be mocked and laughed at because you believe in a crucified

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Messiah and of course crucifixion is disgusting to the people this time and as would be anytime if you especially we saw it happening and That's how it was easy on the

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Gentiles when they get thrown into This made his religion more popular than the original followers of Jesus and then when

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I go and where the religion of all of Jesus or who and Where is the evidence of their existence and well their illiteracy?

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Well if they're illiterate, how do you know anything about him well because someone 600 years later who likewise was illiterate

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Some yeah, you know I just hit me wait a minute if Mohammed's illiterate Then how does that argument work that just hit me?

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Why didn't that hit me that night ah? See I do I do that's one of the reasons I don't generally just fired up and sit there and go look

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I said there What could I have said there, but that would have been an interesting thing to just retort as soon as he said well

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You know those those original followers were illiterate, so we wouldn't expect you know that they'd be able to you know

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Okay, and the reason that illiterate Mohammed Manages to do that and the okay

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All right I Did get to this one he talks about what scholars are now finding in the text well

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You know what when when a when anyone who doesn't believe that God has spoken

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Deals with a text that claims to be inspired. It's amazing what they can find they do the same thing with the Quran I kept pointing this out.

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He says what scholars are now finding pure naturalism. Oh, this was about this was this was and again

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The fact that I keep hearing Bart Ehrman over and over and over again in Shabir Ali makes me wonder just how closely related

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The the study is here Bart Ehrman does the exact same thing as this a

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I was listening to was this the one with Hayes or the one with with William Lane Craig a fair which one it was

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I've listened to a number of hours to Bart Bart Ehrman recently and Same thing across and did two years ago in Seattle, and that is well

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You know there's no such thing as prophetic fulfillment What's going on here is the Christians are trying to make sense of Jesus they look back to the

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Old Testament scriptures And they they well let's be real honest. They lie to everybody they make up the story

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Now some people might want to say well. It's not a lie. It's a parable. It's a parable dummy. You know

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But they make it up to fulfill The prophecies so none of these things about Jesus's bones not being broken and all the rest that stuff there there can't be such a thing as prophecy now

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Again, I can see Ehrman going there I can see cross and going there because they don't believe God has spoken how in the world can a consistent

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Muslim Stand there and say those things. I don't understand it. I mean Jamal Badawi Will will ransack the

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Old Testament and find prophetic references to Muhammad even? I've played it right here on the dividing line remember.

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I played him Isaiah 9 Other than mighty God, but you skipped over you know everlasting father and prince of peace and all these things applying them to Muhammad So how can you consistently say

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God has spoken and here's all these things and then turn around and adopt this purely naturalistic?

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Materialistic now there's no such thing as revelation type thing when it comes the Bible and then turn on say yes But I believe that when

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Muhammad went into these fits and he gave these these ecstatic utterances That this is all you know the absolute perfect Word of God And I don't you know sir it shows you know borrowing from the

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Talmud and borrowing from Gnostic sources and things like that But it's absolutely perfect that's

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I Don't understand that part so Anyways I said pure naturalism that Shabir would never allow for Quran and does not

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Shabir see Muhammad in the Bible I didn't get a chance to ask him that I would like to ask him well, so do you agree or disagree?

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With Jamal Badawi and Jamal Badawi his assertions that you can find all these prophecies of Muhammad the

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Bible I'm certain that he does But you know anyways Let me see here,

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I wrote God is not a man God's honor and glory is seen Isaiah 6. I think that was in reference to the the the places where he was basically trying to give very human illustrations of when someone sins against us and We can just simply forgive them and the fact that he's in essence paralleling

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God To fallen sinners at that point on in regards to holiness and things like that Finally the last thing

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I have down here, and I marked it out because I did get to it is he was talking about Was it?

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John five stages three different persons during the time the Five stages through it was that he was talking about the gospel of John or was it

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Luke. I think was gospel of John anyways He was promoting the idea that there's there's this massive amount of redaction going on That's why all these guys, and I found it interesting.

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I was listening to airmen I might play a little bit of Bart Ehrman after the break, but Ehrman was doing the same thing when it comes to the

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Gospels What you have to do is you have to move them as far down the road as you can because you need to have time

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For all these all this redaction to take place Okay And so you you push them as far down the road as you can so that you have room for this development but but When it comes to the

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Gnostic Gospels when it comes the gospel of Thomas for example Ehrman will push for a 120 date make it as early as possible now the

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Standards that they use the New Testament Gospels will be completely different than the standards they use for the

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Gnostic Gospels as far as dating goes and you wonder why hmm Why would you want to put the canonical

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Gospels as far away from Jesus as possible? And why would you want to put the Gnostic Gospels as close to Jesus as possible hmm?

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Do you maybe have an agenda? That's driving you in doing these things ah

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Maybe you do have an agenda in doing that kind of stuff and you know as I pointed out

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I said you know five stages three different persons. Who are they where's the where's the evidence all you're doing is

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You're saying well, and I it was really funny I point this out after the debate to other people

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But if you've listened to Mike like on a debate the one that we have played major portions of here you remember

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Shabir Ali At one point well mean it may not have gotten to this point now think about it and playing it, but at one point like Ona cites

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James DG done and saying that the first Corinthians 15 thing is then like 18 months of the time of Christ and so on and so forth and Shabir's response is what's one scholar in one opinion?

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Now when he quotes done This is what scholars have found when he quotes a liberal

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Jesuit woman from Boston College is what scholarship has found But then when you cite the same people against this position.

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That's just the one opinion of one scholar and And I again I the inconsistency is very very patent to me.

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It's very very clear to me And so you know I want to try to say well look Why don't we just be very very clear here

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And what you're saying is look liberal scholarship has lots and lots of theories that I like that dismiss the text of the

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Bible as being Inspired fine, that's that's really what's being said they're all and I can say well

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There's lots of scholars that I can point to the dismiss the text the Quran and consider it to be you know a hopeless muddle

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That's next to impossible to actually understand and it was taken from all these different sources But you don't accept that and If I were to make that argument,

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I would have to try to back it up. I mean when I mentioned That's the second surah the cow

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Was circulated as a separate book from the Quran I can back that up. I can give you the citations I can give you the ancient literature primarily by Christians who wrote that type of thing and That's you know that's there in the data if you're gonna say well there were you know there five

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Five different stages and three different people and you can demonstrate this by what well this is just a theory

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It's a theory held by by some people and I put a lot of weight in this particular scholar And so there's this one theory that I'm presenting okay

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But you will admit that you cannot actually document this one particular theory you can't actually

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You know provide any any material Substantiation of these things like I did my opening statement

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I'm quoting from people and I'm giving you citations from a tacitus and and From Ignatius and Clement of Rome and and things like that.

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I had a neat quote from Dagnetius As well that I just didn't have time to get to because there's wasn't enough time that's the the difference is

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It also came out in the in the first and second Peter thing was I know why? Modern scholarship does what it does with Peter, and I've dealt with that.

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I had to do that in Bible College. You know It's sort of like when Bart Ehrman says well fundamentalists.

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Just read the Gospels Vertically they don't read them horizontally I was using a harmony of the

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Gospels a parallel edition of the Gospels as a freshman in Bible College It's just it's just not right to say that well 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1

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We have one person online. We'll get to after the break and invite your participant patient as well 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1

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We'll be right back How the pilgrims progress it's not an easy way it's a journey

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Jesus What is dr.

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Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free a new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios

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No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called

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Calvinism he insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant in his book the potter's freedom

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James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply It is a defense of the very principles upon which the

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Protestant Reformation was founded Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate

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James White masterfully counters the evidence against so -called Extreme Calvinism Defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a defense of the

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Reformation and a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org

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Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word may be James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

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Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his word what has happened to this sacred duty in our day

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The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

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God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

32:29

The history of the

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Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine in his book the

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God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme

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Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute

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James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith

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Dr. Jay Adams says I lost sleep over this book. I simply couldn't put it down James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates.

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This is no book for casual reading There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words

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The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org

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See now this is where I'm just Yeah, except you don't let me talk back

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Thanks Yeah, but it only lasts how long you do rich has been a little stressed since we got back

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Yes, and people wonder who that is you know who that is I know who that is Yes, it's John Tesh.

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Now. I doubt that was John Tesh playing the guitar actually, but it was his you know Well anyway, hey, you know what before we go to our first call

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I Did the the holidays are coming and in fact? They're they're almost here one of them that I don't really

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I mean the next one up is the one of the big ones and that's Reformation Sunday and then and then

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Thanksgiving and then Christmas, so You know the but the big news about Christmas is

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Milo is putting out a Christmas CD and And you know I got a

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I got a card from someone after the debate, and it was a really special card it was very

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Lots of thanks the ministry and stuff and then at the end it mentioned This gentleman was very thankful that I had introduced him to the music of Steve Camp and Milo Hudson Bueller I'm not sure what

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Steve Camp would think of Or if Milo Hudson Bueller is familiar with Steve Camp, I'm not really sure exactly

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How that how that fits, but you know I just want people to realize that This is going to be major when

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I mean Manheim Steamroller Steamroller put out a CD for Christmas again It's been six years brand new one. It just came out, but just imagine what someone with this kind of Talent Goes after Christmas songs,

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I mean just think about this for just a moment Myself I get cleaned up and take a trip to town.

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I'm not going to the cafe It's not that time of day

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And I don't need parts, so I won't be going to the chow near dealer

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I'm headed for the bank on my knees to ask for money Because my crops all failed again even though it's sunny When you farm like me

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And you always need alone again naturally

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I'm almost afraid to know what Milo could do with Christmas After something like that But yes keep an eye out

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I will be letting you know where you can get hold of the Milo Hudson Bueller CD for Christmas and thrill your family and friends with that kind of Great insight into things well

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You know what I'm we're not getting I guess everybody at the at the at the debate has said pretty much everything they need to say they're not

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Not calling in today, but let's say go ahead and hopefully this time. This is good. Are we really set to do this?

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Because remember the last time I did this I kept hitting air air air And and it just it wouldn't let me do anything that's because you were hitting error error error no

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I don't have error over here was the it was that the error exists between you and keyboard ah Error exists between operator and keyboard

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Hmm I never do things like that Right let's talk with Johnny over.

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Hey Johnny. Where are you in California? I live in Whittier and So you're okay right now

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Yeah, I'm fine. I mean I've been able to smell the smoke a little bit But it's not as bad the people in Orange County can smell it.

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I think they can smell it inijuana Actually, I have been told that tomorrow

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We will smell it because the winds are changing direction instead of Santa Ana's it's gonna be heading for Phoenix, so we're actually expecting to get to Engage in that particular

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Behavior ourselves so anyway well, I'm glad things are going well for you

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It's been quite the thing to watch what's going on in California right now. Yeah, I know I have a friend that lives in Escondido And I just called him up to ask him if he was okay because the fires did reach

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Escondido He said he was fine. He's attending Westminster Theological Seminary Yes, and he told me that the fire is only on the outskirts of Escondido So he's not getting really hit, but they did give him the week off at work and Westminster Seminary has to basically

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Stop for a week, and so he's got an extra week to work on his homework But yeah, in fact I I did hear that it was at the borders of the seminary.

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I know that Good friend of ours Jim Renahan was evacuated for a while anyways. I have not heard

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Anything more than that, but just just an amazing amazing Series of events over there, but that's not why you called.

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What's up? Well, I was calling up I didn't of course I have not heard your debate with Shabir Ali the last one you did of course

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I was at the one at Biola, and I did notice that there was a very significant difference in your Interpretation and the

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Muslim interpretation of what it means to be inspired Scripture and the Christian understanding of inspiration, but I have noticed that it is actually a very common

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Argument among Jews liberals and Muslims and and probably even Mormons At least in some circles as to criticize how the

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New Testament authors would use the Old Testament Yes And I was wondering if I don't know maybe you

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I don't know how studied you are in this area Or maybe you just haven't gotten around to incorporating this but the mr.

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William Webster has written a book giving the Jewish Interpretation of those very same passages that we do and I also a dr.

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Robert Maury In his book on the Trinity has an entire section devoted to How the

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Jewish leaders in the in the Targums and the Midrash and all that where they interpreted the exact same verses almost?

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identical to the way we Christians do indicating that there was a school of Messianic interpretation of those very

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Old Testament passages prior to the coming of Jesus himself And I think that this is that actually something that is very significant to be pointed out to liberals

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Muslims and Jews because some of them don't even know this. Well, yeah, in fact Michael Brown has put out a four volume set dealing with Jewish objections.

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It is there is a a broad amount of literature that can be

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Generally ascribed to Judaism, of course, you have to be a little bit careful here

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Just yesterday. I was listening to airmen Bart Ehrman identifying a

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One particular post New Testament writing is steeped in Judaism and yet presenting an idea of a non bodily concept of resurrection, so you have to Be careful and say is this actually a practicing

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Jewish person? as a part of Judaism or is this a person?

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who is Incorporated certain elements of Judaism into a foreign world view at that point and even then even within the the

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Targums within the materials the midrash Mishneic materials what comes together to produce the

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Talmud, etc, etc There's just as you have in early Christian writings. You have various streams within Jewish writings that are

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More or less consistent more or less biblical. That's one of the reasons in the new perspective argumentation

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You can find a wide Utilization of quote -unquote

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Jewish writings that they can have a real a real range of application and meaning and so you have to be careful at that point as to You know the quality of the information you're coming from.

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I don't know that you can establish Any one single view as being the view because there are a number of different views, but obviously you are correct it is not that the

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Christian understanding of for example, the 22nd Psalm just all of a sudden popped into existence with the

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Apostle Paul Those texts had been addressed by Jewish writers prior to that time and to to say that odd You know, they were just you know making this stuff up as they went along The fact that they were doing this during the time the lifetime when there would have been eyewitnesses

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To contradict them or to say no one's ever thought of this before no one ever took it that way is just ridiculous

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It would mean that there could not have been Any of the polemic argumentation recorded in New Testament Oh Basically to try to say that only parts of the

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New Testament are factual and parts aren't just doesn't work you either have to make it Completely fanciful.

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It's just a complete fraud From whole cloth or you have to go.

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Hey, wait a minute if they were having this kind of interaction at that time Then there is evidence for a pre -existing mess

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Messianic understanding of these texts and that text in fact, the irony was I don't have it here in my studio right now, but last night on Wednesday evenings at our church we go through the

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Psalter and We were in Psalm 21 last night and I had a

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Jewish the art the art scroll Tehillim with me so I could have the Hebrew and in English and I was looking at the

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Hebrew commentary on various things and I think it was I think it was

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Psalm 21 was talking about the the prayers of the Messiah King they they looked at it as a as having this

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Messianic application now, of course elsewhere they clearly gave evidence that they were trying to respond to Christian claims about for example,

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Psalm 22 and things like that, but that of that that material is there and So, yeah, there's there's no question about that but the the problem in trying to incorporate something like that into a debate with Shabir Ali is that If anything that I cite from the

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New Testament is a later Accretion a later edition anything on your site from Jewish sources can be treated in the same way

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Especially if there is as well, you know Josephus, you know the Christians meddled with that and the you know As long as you're into conspiracy theories and basically saying that the

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Jew that the Christians are willing to lie about anything Then is there any source that you can cite that that you can't just simply dismiss on the same grounds now

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It's clear that he has here obviously because of his Muslim Prejudices or presuppositions that he actually has an axe to grind and I didn't mean that There that the

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Jewish people have ever been monolithic. Obviously. All right. Yeah, it's clearly I'm just saying that that I mean

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I guess what you're saying is that he's going to go through these conspiracy theories, but I mean It's kind of strange that they can almost pull a rabbit out of a hat and say well

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Christianity has invented. I mean, I remember when I heard dr Walter Martin on on the the Long John Neville show and he was going up against the guy who's gone field on the

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Passover plot Yes, and he made that very argument that when the when Jesus had come around and done his missionary work that the

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Apostles Literally ransacked the Old Testament in order to find any shred of evidence that they could in order to apply it to Jesus and when

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Walter Martin responded is that there was a School of thought among the Jewish people that did interpret those verse in the same way that we do of course never implying that the

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Jews were ever monolithic that they're all of them had this exact same interpretation. There was obviously a vast variety of views among them on so many different things

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But I was just saying that they seems to be that this this should be A point that needs to be brought out more fully and in saying look before Jesus He's from was born you have all these evidence, but if he's going to go there

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I I don't know what it would even satisfy him in the first place Yeah, well remember one of the things that has been stated.

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We we were hoping to have more debates than just this We're gonna have a debate in Toronto and stuff like that and one of the subjects was

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I wanted to debate whether Jesus is I'm sorry whether Muhammad is prophesied in The Old Testament, and he wanted to precede that with a debate is

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Jesus Prophesied in the Old Testament, which I found really interesting but again,

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I I you know looking at some of these debate topics right now I Think there is good reason to to deal with any

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Credible Islamic representative But we're also dealing with people who hold a number of different views

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And I think that to impact the wider audience of Muslims especially on issues relating to crucifixion stuff like that We need to we need to debate some

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Islamic apologist who actually hold the mainstream viewpoint on those things so and and should barely does

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Not so but yeah, that's that's a good point Johnny. I appreciate it. Okay, okay? Keep safe out there all right.

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All right. Thank you Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one let me play a clip for you

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This is a clip from Bart Ehrman. This is from his debate with William Lane Craig.

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This is his Standard presentation because I've heard him do this in multiple and encounters now so obviously this is something he uses in his classes

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This is something he uses in in his Argumentation let's listen to Bart Ehrman talking about the

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Gospels as Historical sources now and by the way make sure you catch the difference between a historical source and a theological source a

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Historical source and a theological source here it is We'd like to be extremely well off because the

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Gospels tell us about Jesus, and they are our best sources for Jesus But how good are they as historical sources?

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I'm not questioning whether they're valuable as theological sources Resources for religious information, but how good are they as historical sources?

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Unfortunately, they're not as good as we would like The Gospels were written 35 to 65 years after Jesus death 35 or 65 years after his death not by people who were eyewitnesses

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But by people living later The Gospels are written by highly liberate trained

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Greek speaking Christians of the second and third generation They're not written by Jesus Aramaic speaking followers.

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They're written by people living 30 40 50 60 years later Where did these people get their information from I should point out in our

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Gospels that the Gospels say they're written by Matthew Mark Luke and John, but that's just in your English Bible That's the title of these

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Gospels But whoever wrote the gospel of Matthew didn't call it the gospel of Matthew Whoever wrote the gospel of Matthew simply wrote his gospel and somebody later said it's the gospel according to Matthew Somebody later is telling you who wrote it the titles are later additions.

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These are not eyewitness accounts So where did they get their stories from? After the days of Jesus people started telling stories about him in order to convert others to the faith

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They were trying to convert both Jews and Gentiles How do you convert somebody to stop worshipping their gods to start worshipping

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Jesus? You have to tell stories about Jesus. So you convert somebody on the basis of the stories you tell

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That person converts somebody who converts somebody who converts somebody and all along the line people are telling stories the way it works is this

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I'm a businessman in Ephesus and Somebody comes to town and tells me stories about Jesus and on the basis of these stories

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I hear I convert I tell my wife these stories she converts. She tells the next -door neighbor the stories she converts

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She tells her husband the story he converts He goes on a business trip to Rome and he tells people they're the stories they convert

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Those people who've heard the stories of Rome, where did they hear him from? They heard him from the guy that next door to me.

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Well, was he there to see these things happen? No, where'd he hear him from? He heard him from his wife. Where'd his wife hear him from? Was she there?

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No, she heard him from my wife. Where did my wife hear him from? She heard him from me. Well, where did

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I hear him from? I wasn't there either Stories are in circulation year after year after year and as a result of that The stories get changed

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Now I'm going to stop it right there because there's another section. I want to want to get played

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I don't know if I'll get played today But in listening to this this is you know

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It strikes me as something odd. First of all, the Bart Ehrman calls himself a happy agnostic. He sounds very passionate about this

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This is not something that most agnostics are not quite this Emotionally involved with this subject and the fact the matter is dr.

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Ehrman Markets himself as a Former fundamentalist when he started off his response to William Lane Craig he said

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I once believed with with heart and soul everything that Bill Craig just said and This is what sets him apart.

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He utilizes this so I'm certain that he could not possibly object to the fact That we recognize that Bart Ehrman is an apostate

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That's a technical term apostate is a person who once made a profession of faith and now denies that that's a position that profession of faith and so It does strike me that someone who is in essence an apostate could be so Very involved in this and it seems to me that it only goes from one direction he views himself as the unbiased scholar analyzing these things, but in reality an apostate has a

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Vested interest shall we say in making sure the position that he once professed cannot be demonstrated to be

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True and what was just stated this idea? Well, this is how the message went from one person to another in another context.

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He even uses the telephone game As the illustration of how this came along and everybody knows that you know

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The song is in a little kid's classroom If you start with one sentence and you play the telephone game

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It comes out the other end all corrupted that must mean that the Bible can't possibly be true. I mean that is an overwhelmingly scholarly argument

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Except it ignores a number of things it ignores the church for example It ignores the fact that that there were entire bodies of people that were actually repeating the same thing and they didn't get it from just one person because there are these people called

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I witnesses I Witnesses now, what is an eyewitness the eyewitnesses?

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This is why the GS and the eyewitnesses from Balcom is so important as a

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Recent scholarly work is here's someone right in the middle of the Academy And he's saying you know what there were these eyewitnesses and these eyewitnesses didn't just go away

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They didn't just vaporize and in fact they came to have a very important role in the community and They are telling these stories over and over again and once they've told these stories if they then change those stories later on the people who heard in the first time are gonna know that and You have this this this teaching that is going on and this idea that well

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You know I told my wife and she told this person that's her that and then it's like the telephone game And it gets completely messed up totally ignores

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If it assumes that everyone is an individual unit, and they're never gonna get together and actually discuss these things

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They're never gonna never get together in a church. There's gonna be no preaching. There's gonna be no teaching if There is preaching and teaching this solidifies it it it keeps this very process that he's assuming is going on in the

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Telephone game from taking place with regularity, and so it's not just well

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How did this person well? Well, there's one source and the one source You know keeps changing things and embellishing things and and so it's really completely and totally unreliable that ignores the idea that this is being preached in many places and then people from different places get together and they talk and then you've got eyewitnesses that come along and you've got multiple eyewitnesses you got multiple attestation and That really sort of messes up this entire presentation, but that's that's what you've got going on Because there are numerous differences in our accounts that cannot be reconciled with one another

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You don't need to take my word for this simply look yourself I tell my students that that the reason we don't notice there's so many differences in the

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Gospels is because we read the Gospels Horizontally I mean I'm sorry we read them vertically from top to bottom you start at the top of mark you read through to the bottom

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You start at the top of Matthew reading to the bottom sounds a lot like mark Then you read Luke top bottom sounds a lot like Matthew mark reach on a little bit different sounds about the same

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The reason is because we're reading them vertically the way to see differences in the Gospels is to read them horizontally

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Read one story in Matthews in the same story in Mark and compare your two stories and see what you come up with And of course in his discussion with Hayes at Duke He you know basically says what you need to do is you need to start with the assumption that the

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Gospels are telling different stories So you see they're they're guilty until proven innocent and there can be no

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Harmonization harmonization is silliness you just dismiss anyone who seeks to harmonize and of course

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I'm sitting there riding along whining to yell and scream going excuse me How about they are all telling the same story, but to different audiences and therefore in different language and with different emphases and choosing different elements

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And how dare you say that anyone who believes in this stuff just reads you know Matthew Then reads

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Martin goes as pretty much same thing when I've been teaching from the synoptic Gospels using the harmony of the

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Gospels From Elan for the past four and a half years. I'm sorry. That's just that that's not the way that it is and he loves to say well,

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I went to Moody Bible Institute where Bibles are middle name and I've heard him say it more than once and but it's meant in a in a mocking tone

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It really is meant to be taken in that way And you know I Remember some people who taught at Moody Bible Institute like Kenneth Weist and something tells me they weren't quite as simplistic as he likes to say

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Okay, here's the section I thought I was playing, but I don't have time to even play it So I'm gonna keep this

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I'm gonna bookmark this and I'm going to play it the next time we get together I'm gonna try to remember if you play it the next time we get together

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It's five days between now and then and who knows what may happen between now. We may have some huge controversy To address between and I don't know, but I will try to remember to to play starting right there

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His presentation on how vastly different the Gospels are from one another Just in regards to the death of Jesus, and we'll see if that really is the case or whether it's it isn't

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But that we will do that on the dividing line coming up on Tuesday Morning if you can be with us and of course if you can't we know

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Not everybody can be here your work schedules and everything else and so that's why we have a thing called the archive

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And we hope that you make good use of that. Thanks for listening to the dividing line today We will be back on Tuesday Lord willing and hope you'll be there as well

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We must contend for the faith of fathers fought for we need a new Reformation The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries If you'd like to contact us call us at six oh two nine seven three four six zero two or write us at p .o

59:40

Box three seven one zero six Phoenix, Arizona eight five zero six nine. You can also find us on the

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World Wide Web at a omin That's a o m I n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks