Bart Ehrman

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 and now with today's topic. Here is James White.

Opening the Dividing Line and the Day's Calls

And good afternoon, welcome to the Thursday edition of the dividing line today driven by your calls at 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 8 7 7 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. I did get it. I just think about an email. I attacked my inbox today.

You know how some days you just feel like cleaning. And I just I just attacked that thing and I got it down. There are currently three emails in my inbox. Which they were like after I deleted all the garbage out once I could finally get a connection again they're like 86 and I got it down to two three and so.

One of them I Did I you know, I just realized I did. I did respond to it but only very very briefly. I had mentioned somebody one of the comm box comments over at Steve Ray. Steve Ray's blog site and I Guess he wrote in.

I don't know if it was. No, it couldn't have been while we were gone because it was forwarded from you. So it had to have been before we left but it must have been right in the few days. Those few days become a blur.

You're doing so much stuff. You can't keep up with stuff. Anyway, it was a Roman Catholic fellow and He had made some snide remark about me on Steve Ray's blog and so I made some comment about what he'd said.

So he writes this long thing where he's psychoanalyzing me. I just love. You know, I get so much free psychoanalysis. And none of them end up, you know really overly helpful, but I get a lot of free psychoanalysis from lots of folks and and People have never actually met me or know anything about me and they figure they can just judge you by a debate.

Which is really, you know debates when you're a debate. That's exactly how you always are in your in your life. And and it's real real easy to make those kinds of decisions on the base of that anyways.

But he was he was talking to me about just just how bad I am and Things like that. So I just wrote back and thanked him for for his deep psychoanalysis. What did that have to do with this? How did I get?

I Haven't a clue. How we got on that? Yes, you get what you pay for him you Tato just inform you you get what you pay for. And yeah, and I paid for those things, by the way, I finally as I mentioned last time.

Did I have something to do with phone calls? I said we're gonna we're gonna oh, that's right. That's right. Okay, but make the connection here. I guess I had said something about launch call in and back up what you got to say or something like that and he was basically stating that obviously.

He couldn't find us on any of the radio stations in, Minnesota. Like well, you know the website makes it sort of plain that we aren't on them. Them our radio stations so that that would explain what what that is, so.

So that's probably why he won't be calling. But anyway, that's that's neither here nor there. My notes did arrive for those of you who were listening to the last program but there's not that many of them for those of you on the dr. O 24 7 webcam.

Which costs exactly how much. Nothing. That's because it only sends up an image. Seconds, it's not exactly what we would call a live feed in that way someday. We will we will get it figured out, but I'm showing to the webcam now.

My my note page. I only had one page of notes outside of what was on the on the tablet before it croaked and. So I was looking at some of these things. There are some of them. I Looks looks good on the screen.

It I mentioned to someone today. I think to to go Roger Brazier over in over in Shelly, Oh London. That's it looks exactly like the John Dominic crossing debate except crossing and should be. It looks just like the crossing debate except not might be the way to put it but exact same spot anyway As the crossing debate was but it looks good.

I suppose if I was watching it some of these might make sense like there's poor slash blood on The in the column there. I haven't a clue what that was. But anyway Let's see. We have the claim that the Quran allows for Jesus to have been put on the cross.

Well, I Realized that Shabir Ali has now responded to my brief comments on the blog and I have begun Responding to him now and that's gonna be one of the key issues is Dealing with that particular thing be very easy for me to you know point out that he's in a minority.

But he already admits he is so it's not all that big of a deal. This one I did not get to and I even had a little circle next to it. Which means I failed to get to it just one of those. One of the things that guy said to me was I've never heard you say very main mistake.

Well a couple things if all you ever listened to his debates, is that generally what you do in debates? It's going to debate. Let me tell you something folks. I have made so many mistakes. Let me tell you you should believe me because I just can't get anything, right?

You know, is that is that really what? Anyway, I don't know but I didn't get to this one. That's a failure on my part when I make a note and put a little circle next to it. What's that's telling me is try to work this in somehow some way.

Didn't get to it. This was an interesting statement. He may he went after Hebrews. I guess I've addressed this in the blog, but I really didn't get into it in the debate. He addressed Hebrews and the fact that Hebrews is Sudan, so we don't know who wrote it.

Sudan's Sudan anonymous Suda bigger full false pig ratings, right? We don't know who wrote it. Funny thing is I run into a lot of Muslims who think they know who wrote it because many of them will just throw it In with Paul just at the front of it.

But anyway and So since we don't know who wrote it, then it can't possibly be inspired just by by default that's just the way it is and I explained that on the blog is to the Mindset of the of the Muslim at that point and this is what I wrote Hebrews yet Shabir Ali cannot tell us who recorded and provided any single ayah except the few noted in al-bukhari what I was referring to.

There was the fact that in that tradition in al-bukhari, which I have heard Shabir quote I believe there are two ayahs. Two verses in the Quran that are mentioned and actually I think one of them is a multi-verse section from one of the surahs and in essence what.

Those are our ayahs that were found in the memory of a single person just one person Remembered this other than that, so we know the exact source at least from that tradition. Anyways, however much weight you give that We know the exact source of where that came from but for anything else in the Quran are there other ayahs.

That were only in the memory of one person was surah 4157 in the memory of only one person since we can't find anybody else who remembered anything about it and How infallible is the recollection of that one individual and So here he's saying well, we can't trust Hebrews because we don't know who wrote it, but you don't know who recollected any.

But two of the of the sections of the Quran. You have to believe in essence that Uthman's revision was divinely guided and inspired of itself. And you still don't know The names of the sources. How is that consistent?

Inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument and later on. Down at the bottom again. I didn't get to this one either. Circular reasoning on Uthman he he never had the original companions who were still alive see the contradiction what I was saying here was he made reference to the companions of the Prophet and how they were key in Reconstructing the text of the Quran, but again the the gross contradiction or inconsistency of Attributing to the companions of the Prophet perfect memories.

They have to be perfect memories. He believes that it's absolutely perfect and therefore they had perfect memories. They never failed. Even though it is odd if some of those ayahs were only found the memory of one person and there were other People around who had heard the Prophet and they forgot that means their memories were incomplete.

But only only one guy remembered so they did forget things somehow. And there had been people who had died in the battle. Many of the Korah the right the readers that the memorizers the Quran had died in the battle.

So were there other ayahs that were lost then I? Mean we're just trying to be consistent here if we're gonna say you have to know who they were you have to be consistent. Why is it that can the companions of the Prophet can be given absolute?

Perfect memories. There's there's nothing about anybody trying to take over the Islamic movement. Wasn't there a Paul? I mean if Paul's gonna be this type of guy who's gonna be we're going to attribute the most dastardly of Intentions to him.

I Mean what house can you explain it? You can't I mean at one point he did say oh, I'm sure that Paul believed what he was saying. What do you mean Paul believe what he was saying? How could Paul believe it was saying if he made all this stuff up?

I mean did somebody make it up before him then who made this stuff up, and why would they make it up? That was one of the points I was trying to make in the debate was Why in the world would anyone try to make up a religion based upon a crucified Messiah?

That was that was the worst. I mean talk about a bad marketer. Talk about a losing proposition. It just doesn't make any sense. To even begin to think that this is something that somebody would make up and Try to create some some world religion so on the one hand the companions of the Prophet They all have perfect memories none of them are deceived by anybody they are all you know.

Up to the time of Uthman they they do everything right, but the companions of Jesus. They can't get almost anything. He said into writing They can't they can't fight off Paul. They can't communicate Jesus real teachings which would have been nothing more than the repetitive I mean when you look at the Jesus of the Quran and distill his teachings.

In essence what they should have written down was a book that was nothing more than Pray the prayers five times a day Allah is your God. And there's a prophet coming after me whose name's Muhammad that that would have been about it.

But they didn't even manage to get that on paper, and it wouldn't have taken more than one piece of a piri To get it done and They didn't do it and for 600 years Nobody hears anything like this, and it's funny when when people like Jamal Badawi try to appeal to the Gnostics They are even farther away in their view of Jesus than the Muslims.

They will do that Badawi refers to him. You know the Vassal Edie's and and so substitution theory and all the rest of that stuff, and we need to debate those subjects and I want to debate those subjects, but That's even farther away.

That's that's a that worldview is even farther away from the Islamic Jesus of the Quran Than what you have in Christianity so That that doesn't that doesn't make any sense so the the point is gross inconsistency.

One view for the the companions of Muhammad Completely different, and I have to ask the question Are you really given the exalted views of Jesus that you still have in the Quran at least you know in Islam?

There's still you know he did miracles and things like this. He spoke from his cradle as a little kid that of course comes from you know a non-historical source. But you know the Quran accepts it and repeats it, but he speaks of the cradle.

He does all these miraculous things. Couldn't he managed to pick a group of followers at least as good as Muhammad did at least as faithful as Muhammad did and We know that there are people that were in you know around Muhammad that Defected and things like that and their names are not held in esteem by Muslims today.

And so why couldn't Jesus do that why couldn't Jesus do at least as good a job? Double standard that is used there no question about it. He mentioned the scapegoat that did come up and cross an audience questions we were.

I forget which part that it was it was part of the give-and-take. I remember Pointing out that scapegoat was just a part of and I don't think I'd have to go back and listen now. I Don't think he tried to sort of refute what I had pointed out and that is in his own talks He tries to say well the scapegoat you know Jesus isn't you know Lamb of God wasn't the one that took away the sins of The world.

It was the scapegoat that did that and I point out that was a real shallow reading of that text, but Scapegoat I put down Isaiah 53 and then I'm gonna have to read through my scribble here because when I did get something Handled I had to mark it out, so I wouldn't be looking at that and wasting time.

You don't have a lot of time to be reading your notes. Does Shabir really think the Quran is inviting Christians to engage in redaction criticism? In surah 547 and I I did get a chance to Make note in one of the audience questions, I think That it's just amazing that when the Quran Exhorts the people of the book to judge by the things contained therein that that can be turned to judge the things contained therein.

That's two different statements if I say Well give a real-life example. The the master of all things electronic out there in the control room looking around behind him right now. The great disembodied voice of the dividing line.

Who frequently fills in for the peanut gallery? Because of our huge studio audience that you know we frequently have here, which normally has only one person in it, too, but So the peanut gallery is the man of many many hats.

Was working on a DVR thing we have out here to you know keep track of our video and stuff. We told you what happened on the last riding line about people Prying iron bars off windows and things like that and so this you know how things come these days they come with a manual that Is either 475 pages long or it's written in English not English, but English.

Which is a different language it comes from Japan or other places similar there, too, and that really easy to you know. Read so anyway. He had to take it home because it's rather complicated now if I said That we are to judge the DVR by the things contained therein that is the manual.

That's completely different than saying we are to judge the things contained in the manual. One makes the manual the standard the other says we are somehow Analyzing the manual and judging the contents so it's not the same thing to read the text of surah 547 and say that the people the book are to judge By what is contained therein and say that they are to judge the things contained therein.

Even to the point of basically saying that the Quran is inviting modern Christians to examine their texts and to see what was inspired and what isn't and How does Shabir answer the question about what's inspired?

What isn't he only he's only given one answer. And he's given a consistent answer there. Here's consistency. It's a consistent inconsistency. Both times I've asked that question in both debates the answer has been the same what agrees with the Quran is inspired.

What doesn't isn't? That's called anachronism, that's called. This is my final authority. I'm gonna look back 650 some odd years or so and I'm going to judge through what is in this text, and that's the anachronism.

It's a consistent anachronism, and it Is sort of indefensible, but that's that's what you're having to do and so clearly Muhammad I'm sorry. But as someone seriously gonna suggest that Muhammad was telling modern Christians people the book hey.

You know what engage in redaction criticism. You need to look back at that book. And you need to sort of take it apart and and you need to have a parallel gospel. And you need to climb into Mark's mind and Matthew's mind Luke's mind, and you're supposed to you know.

Wait till modern naturalistic scholarship comes along and could give you all these neat ideas of what they're really trying to do and and That means so that every time a Christian cites a text you just simply go wow it's a later edition.

That's later edition. That's later edition. Do you have a manuscript everywhere anywhere? That doesn't contain this. No, but it's later edition. You know that that that kind of argumentation is is is tough.

Okay, I did hear the audience respond to this one. It was going on and on and he talked about how Paul made Christianity easy on The Gentiles. Christianity was easy on the Gentiles and what he meant was you know you didn't have all the dietary laws and evidently that comes from Paul and so when you find out in the Gospels, that's all from Paul to you and and You know the circumcision and the Sabbath regulations and Paul got rid of all that to make it more appealing to people.

Now of course the fact that they that Paul himself gets stoned. But hey, maybe that was just made up in the process too. See the wonderful thing about this kind of argumentation is anything that can be cited against your thesis.

You just dismiss as a later accretion. That well, the reason that doesn't contradict my thesis is because actually that's not what happened. Do you have any evidence of this? No, but I don't have any evidence of my thesis either.

So it's. You know, it all goes that way. Yes. Paul was the sin and justification guy. Yeah, he was the one talking about that Jesus wasn't talking about he wasn't concerned about that kind of stuff. And then when you go to any text where Jesus is addressing that kind of stuff.

That's later accretion to the ball wonderfully circular argument. It's totally irrefutable, but it's also totally improvable because you've obviously started with your conclusions and now you're just sort of spinning it around from there, so.

That's that's how it ends up working. So yeah, it's pretty tough. Make it easy on them. You'll get stoned. You'll you'll run afoul the Roman authorities. You'll be kicked out of the synagogue. You'll be mocked and laughed at because you believe in a crucified Messiah and of course crucifixion is disgusting to the people this time and as would be anytime if you especially we saw it happening and That's how it was easy on the Gentiles when they get thrown into.

This made his religion more popular than the original followers of Jesus and then when I go and where the religion of all of Jesus or who and Where is the evidence of their existence and well, they're illiterate see.

Well, they're illiterate, how do you know anything about him? Well because someone 600 years later who likewise was illiterate. Some yeah, you know, I just hit me. Wait a minute if Mohammed's illiterate.

Then how does that argument work that just hit me? Why didn't that hit me that night? Ah, see I do I do. That's one of the reasons I don't generally just fire it up and sit there and go. What can I have said there?

What could I have said there but that would have been interesting thing to just retort as soon as said well, you know. Those those original followers were illiterate so we wouldn't expect you know that they'd be able to you know.

Okay, and the reason that illiterate Mohammed Manages to do that and the okay. All right, I Did get to this one. He talks about what scholars are now finding in the text. Well, you know what when when a when anyone who doesn't believe That God has spoken Deals with a text that claims to be inspired.

It's amazing what they can find. They do the same thing with the Quran. I kept pointing this out. He says what scholars are now finding pure naturalism. Oh, this was about this was this was and again the fact that I keep hearing Bart Ehrman over and over and over again in Shabir Ali makes me wonder just how closely related The the study is here Bart Ehrman does the exact same thing as this a I was listening to was this the one with Hayes or the one with with William Lane Craig a fair which one it was.

I've listened to a number of hours to Bart Bart Ehrman recently and Same thing that Crossan did two years ago in Seattle and that is well, you know There's no such thing as prophetic fulfillment. What's going on here is the Christians are trying to make sense of Jesus.

They look back to the Old Testament scriptures and they they well, let's be real honest. They lie to everybody. They make up the story now. Some people might want to say well, it's not a lie. It's a parable.

It's a parable dummy. You know. But they make it up to fulfill the prophecies. So none of these things about Jesus's bones are being broken and all the rest that stuff there there can't be such a thing as prophecy now.

Again I can see Ehrman going there I can see Crossan going there because they don't believe God has spoken how in the world can a consistent Muslim Stand there and say those things. I don't understand it.

I mean Jamal Badawi will will ransack the Old Testament and Find prophetic references to Muhammad even I've played it right here on the dividing line. Remember I played him Isaiah 9 Other than mighty God, but you skipped over, you know everlasting father and Prince of Peace and all these things applying them to Muhammad.

So, how can you consistently say God has spoken and here's all these things and then turn around and adopt this purely naturalistic Materialistic now, there's no such thing as revelation type thing when it comes to the Bible and then turn on say yes.

But I believe that one of Muhammad went into these fits and he gave these these ecstatic utterances. That this is all you know, the absolute perfect Word of God and I don't you know, sir. It shows, you know borrowing from the Talmud and borrowing from Gnostic sources and things like that, but it's absolutely perfect that's I Don't understand that part.

So Anyways, I said pure naturalism that Shabir would never allow for Quran and does not Shabir see Muhammad in the Bible. I didn't get a chance to ask him that I would like to ask him. Well, so do you agree or disagree?

With Jamal Badawi and Jamal Badawi's assertions that you can find all these prophecies of Muhammad the Bible. I'm certain that he does. But you know anyways Let me see here I wrote God is not a man. God's honor and glory is seen Isaiah 6 I think that was in reference to the the the places where he was basically trying to give very human illustrations of when someone sins against us and We can just simply forgive them and the fact that he's in essence paralleling God To fallen sinners at that point on in regards to holiness and things like that.

Finally the last thing I have down here and I marked it out because I did get to it is he was talking about Was it? John five stages three different persons during the time the Five stages three it was that he was talking about the gospel of John or was it Luke?

I think was gospel of John anyways. He was promoting the idea that there's there's this massive amount of redaction going on. That's why all these guys and I found it interesting. I was listening to airmen I might play a little bit of Bart Ehrman after the break, but Ehrman was doing the same thing when it comes to the Gospels.

What you have to do is you have to move them as far down the road as you can because you need to have time For all these all this redaction to take place. Okay. And so you you push them as far down the road as you can so that you have room for this development but but When it comes to the Gnostic Gospels when it comes the gospel of Thomas, for example Ehrman will push for a 120 date make it as early as possible.

Now the standards that they use the New Testament Gospels will be completely different than the standards they use for the Gnostic Gospels as far as dating goes and you wonder why hmm. Why would you want to put the canonical Gospels as far away from Jesus as possible?

And why would you want to put the Gnostic Gospels as close to Jesus as possible? Hmm. Do you maybe have an agenda? That's driving you in doing these things. Ah maybe you do have an agenda in doing that kind of stuff and You know as I pointed out I said, you know five stages three different persons.

Who are they? Where's the where's the evidence? All you're doing is you're saying well, and I it was really funny. I Pointed this out after the debate to other people. But if you've listened to Mike like on a debate the one that we have played major portions of here.

You remember Shabir Ali at one point? Well, we may not have gotten to this point now think about it and playing it but at one point like Ona cites James DG done and Saying that the first Corinthians 15 thing is then like 18 months of the of the time of Christ and so on and so forth and Shabir's response is what's one scholar in one opinion?

Now when he quotes done. This is what scholars have found when he quotes a liberal Jesuit woman from Boston College is what scholarship has found but then when you cite the same people against this position, that's just the one opinion of one scholar and.

And I again I the inconsistency is very very patent to me it's very very clear to me. And so, you know, I want to try to say well look. Why don't we just be very very clear here? And what you're saying is look liberal scholarship has lots and lots of theories that I like that Dismiss the text of the Bible as being inspired fine.

That's that's really what's being said. They're all and I can say well There's lots of scholars that I can point to the dismiss the text of the Quran and consider it to be, you know. A hopeless muddle that's next to impossible to actually understand and it was taken from all these different sources.

But you don't accept that and if I were to make that argument, I would have to try to back it up. I mean when I mentioned That's the second surah the cow Was circulated as a separate book from the Quran.

I can back that up. I can give you the citations I can give you the ancient literature primarily by Christians who wrote that type of thing and That's you know, that's there in the data if you're gonna say well there were you know, there are five Five different stages and three different people and you can demonstrate this by what?

Well, this is just a theory. It's a theory held by by some people and I put a lot of weight in this particular scholar. And so there's this one theory that I'm presenting. Okay, but you will admit that you cannot actually document this one particular theory you can't actually You know provide any any material Substantiation of these things like I did my opening statement where I'm quoting from people and I'm giving you citations from Tacitus and and from Ignatius and Clement of Rome and and things like that.

I had a neat quote from Dagnetius. As well that I just didn't have time to get to because there's wasn't enough time. That's the the difference is. It also came out in the in the first and second Peter thing was I know why?

Modern scholarship does what it does with Peter and I've dealt with that. I had to do that in Bible College, you know. It's sort of like when Bart Ehrman says well fundamentalists just read the Gospels.

Vertically they don't read them horizontally. I was using us a harmony of the Gospels a parallel edition of the Gospels as a freshman in Bible College. It's just it's just not right to say that well We just don't know anything about those things eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one we have one person online.

We'll get to after the break and invite your participant patient as well eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We'll be right back.

Bart Ehrman's Historical-Critical Skepticism About the Gospels

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See now, this is where I'm just. Yeah, except you don't let me talk back. Thanks. Yeah, but it only lasts how long. Oh really. You do. Well, thank you very much. Rich. Rich has been a little stressed since we got back.

Yes, and people wonder who that is, you know who that is. I know who that is. Yes, it's John Tesh. Now. I doubt that was John Tesh playing the guitar actually, but it was his. You know, it's. Well anyway hey, you know what before we go to our first call I.

The the holidays are coming. In fact. They're they're almost here one of them that I don't really I mean the next one up is the one of the big ones and that's Reformation Sunday and then and then Thanksgiving and then Christmas, so.

You know the but the big news about Christmas is Milo is putting out a Christmas CD and. And you know, I got a. I got a card from someone after the debate and it was a really special card it was very.

Lots of thanks the ministry and stuff and then at the end it mentioned. This gentleman was very thankful that I had introduced him to the music of Steve Camp and Milo Hudson Bueller. Now, I'm not sure what Steve Camp would think of.

Or if Milo Hudson Bueller is familiar with Steve Camp, I'm not really sure exactly. How that how that fits but you know I just want people to realize that. This is gonna be major when I mean Manheim. Steamroller.

Steamroller put out a CD for Christmas again. It's been six years brand new one. It just came out. But just imagine what someone with this kind of Talent Goes after Christmas songs. I mean just think about this for just a moment.

Myself I get cleaned up and take a trip to town. I'm not going to the cafe. It's not that time of day. And I don't need parts, so I won't be going to the Charnier dealer. I'm headed for the bank on my knees to ask for money.

Because my crops all failed again, even though it's sunny. When you farm like me always need Alone again.

Naturally I'm almost afraid to know what Milo could do with Christmas After something like that. But yes, keep an eye out. I will be letting you know where you can get hold of the Milo Hudson Bueller CD for Christmas and thrill your family and friends.

With that kind of great insight into things well, you know what I'm we're not getting. I guess everybody at the at the Debate has said pretty much everything they they need to say they're not. Not calling in today, but let's say go ahead and hopefully this time.