A Few Thoughts on the Crush of the World, Responses to Pullmann/Hess

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March 8, 2022

Started with a few thoughts on the craziness of the world today and how difficult it is to remain focused with the rush of news, war, etc. Then I started responding to some more of the Pallmann/Hess review, trying to use both my Audio Notetaker program (which we have been fighting recently with sound issues) and Accordance. And though it worked well, toward the end I lost my place in moving from the laptop to the board and errantly moved to the wrong line, even circling a finite verb and calling it a participle (which was, I think, on the next line, or just below, in a very similar form). Had to back up and do some scrolling to get back to where we needed to be. My apologies for that. We are trying to find a way to get past the "you can only control on the laptop but not on the screen" issue, but having just installed a new program I can tell you---it did nothing. But, worth pressing forward.

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00:34: And greetings, welcome to The Dividing Line. Just seeing this come across Twitter, McDonald's bows to pressure and closes all its
00:43: Russian restaurants. Now that is fighting below the belt.
00:50: No more, no more quarter pounders of cheese. No more Big Macs. The worst part is no more
00:57: French fries because everybody knows that there's some kind of drug in McDonald's French fries. And I'm sure you know what it is because you are
01:05: Mr. McDonald's. Most people do not know, but Rich is a McDonald's expert.
01:12: Not because he went there so much, but because he actually worked there at times past and has a degree from Hamburger U, do you not?
01:22: He has, he put his head down. He's like, yeah, sort of like that.
01:29: But has a degree from Hamburger U. So he probably knows what the addicting element is that makes you even want to eat the last half of a fry in the bottom, the one that's in the bag.
01:43: It's not even hot anymore because it fell out in the bag and you still eat it because there's something addicting in it. And I think cutting anyone off from that,
01:51: I think is probably a war crime right there. Well, welcome to the program. I'll just be perfectly honest with you.
01:59: I would not know how to comment on current world events if I wanted to, not in any meaningful fashion, the sense of knowing what's going on.
02:13: I mean, I was on last week on Iron Sharpens Iron with Chris Arnzen and my friend,
02:21: Nick from Irpeen. And that was about the day before it hit the fan right there.
02:32: And I have had people there telling me that it is now lying in ruins.
02:38: I've been told that Nick, however, is gonna be back on with Chris maybe tomorrow.
02:44: I hope that is possible. I certainly will listen if that's the case. But so I've seen video and pictures of roads
02:57: I recognize, I've driven up and down them. I started going there in 2014, I think was the first year that I went there.
03:04: In fact, I landed right as the State Department warned Americans not to go to Ukraine.
03:10: So I was there during whatever that revolution was. And so I know that my
03:18: Ukrainian friends talk to me about the corruption that is just marks the
03:26: Ukrainian government just like the Russian government. And that there's a lot of parallels between the two along those lines, things like that.
03:34: But I don't know the backstories. I don't know, I've seen stuff on both sides and man, if you listen to one side, then you're buying into this stuff.
03:44: And if you listen to the other side, then you're buying into that stuff. And never before has mankind had access to more information and yet has less understanding of what's actually going on.
03:57: I know this, if you spend more than half an hour contemplating all the negative scenarios that are before us, you will live in a state of utter depression.
04:17: You will be distracted from doing good for your own soul, your family, for your neighbors.
04:26: You'll be distracted from the word of God and prayer. And I'm just speaking from personal experience, okay?
04:34: I'm just gonna be honest. I mean, is anyone gonna argue with me about this, that you haven't experienced some of these very same things?
04:44: And so I think we have to draw a line and we have to recognize that there's a lot this is a time to live out your faith.
05:00: And when you think of all the horrible, negative possible futures, you have to recognize that whatever that future is, it's in the hands of God and he's going to use it to make you more like Jesus.
05:13: And it's so easy to say that. It's something completely different to live that.
05:21: But whatever that future is, it's gonna make you more like Christ. If you will allow his spirit to work within you and to conform you to the image of Christ.
05:33: And the only thing that gets in the way of that is your love of stuff, because that's the stuff we're gonna be losing. I mean,
05:40: I have honestly been thinking about some of the little things that I like to eat, like to drink,
05:49: I like cold ice water in Arizona is a wonderful thing.
05:54: Doesn't even have to be flavored, just cold ice water. There are people who don't have ice water and there have been for decades and we've been blessed.
06:04: We may not have it in the future. Okay, are you gonna allow that to cause you to be a person who complains against God's providence and God doesn't love me anymore and et cetera, et cetera.
06:19: We've had it so easy for so long. And so just some thoughts does lead me to mention one thing.
06:34: In trying to make plans for the future, I noticed that someone who remained nameless was criticizing me.
06:42: I think sometime over the weekend, I think someone posted a video where they were accusing me of inconsistency because I had been invited to go to have a conversation in Northern California somewhere.
06:59: I had said, I'm not going to California. It's just a big communist state, even though my wife's there at the moment.
07:09: And then we've announced that I'm gonna be, that I'm supposed to be going to the
07:16: G3 conference at the Museum of the Bible in Washington, DC. It's like, see, you're a hypocrite.
07:23: You said you wouldn't go to that conversation in California, but Washington, DC is just as bad as California, which it is.
07:29: Of course, Josh Bice will tell you that when he called me to ask me to be a part of that,
07:37: I was on my hands and knees in my fifth wheel, mopping up water because that was the day that I had driven south from Arkansas and did not realize that I still had a sheet of ice on the slide -out.
07:59: And so the slide -out came in, it's warmer inside. And so I was literally on my hands and knees mopping up the water from the melted ice inside my fifth wheel.
08:09: And the first thing I said to Josh was, well, that all depends on that the entirety of the
08:33: COVID stuff was pure politics because golly bob, as we get close to the midterms, it's all gone away and the mandates are going away.
08:44: And I happened to notice at the White House briefing yesterday, you could actually understand what the reporters were saying because they weren't muzzled anymore.
08:52: What a shocking and amazing thing that is. So in all probability, might be able to avoid masking vaccine mandates.
09:04: But the first thing I said to him is, as long as I don't have to put genetic poison in my body and as long as I don't have to restrict my breathing and endanger my health in that way, then we'll find a way to make it work.
09:19: And the first thing I did after agreeing to do that on that basis was trying to find the closest red state that I can park my unit in and then just in and back out again.
09:38: And I think I've found one or two possibilities that'll work. I mean, I won't be able to use the unit.
09:43: I'll just have to store it, basically, like an RV park. So anyways, I was being consistent in what
09:51: I was saying, but people were accusing me of all that kind of strange stuff. Anyway, just weird what happens in the world today.
10:03: But I realize that the only power, and you've heard me say this a thousand times before, but I'm going to repeat it again, the only power this world has to cause me to be fearful is loving stuff.
10:25: And the application, though, there's one aspect that I need to bring up.
10:32: I know a lot of folks that are excited about what we're going to be doing on the next trip that we're planning for April. We're going up to,
10:39: I'm going up through Utah. Man, that is such a weird state. I'm going up through Utah, which is literally becoming a purple state, but it's confused.
10:56: So you have red states, you got blue states, you got purple states. And I think Utah is a green state because they don't know what they are.
11:04: I mean, you literally have the Salt Lake City Council doing stuff that you'd expect out of the
11:10: San Francisco City Council. It's just so strange up there. Anyways, we're going up to Utah.
11:17: We're going to be planning on hopefully doing some, maybe having a debate, dialogue, something.
11:25: We'll certainly be doing some training at some of the churches up there, obviously with the churches we've been to in the past, as well as the fact
11:34: Apologia has a church plan up there that I've not been to yet. And so definitely want to be a part of that and see what's going on there and preach and so on and so forth.
11:46: But I don't know that we've mentioned, I think I mentioned finally last week on the program that on April 22nd, the plan right now is that I will be doing a debate with Doug Wilson on the subject of paedo -communion in Moscow, Idaho.
12:08: Now we'll also be doing some other stuff. We're supposed to be doing Man Rampant and like two sweater vest dialogues and some other stuff where we're working together and saying the same things, but we're going to have a debate.
12:21: And we've had debates in the past. I'm one of the people he's debated in writing and in person more often than anybody else.
12:31: And that just drives people insane that we can actually do that kind of thing. But I just love watching people stomp their feet, scratch their heads, stuff like that, both in regards to Doug Wilson and Michael Brown.
12:44: It's like, this is Donald's dad. It's like, well, listen to what we're saying. You'll figure it out eventually. Anyway, so we've been planning this for a while and you know how
12:55: I travel now. And the possibility does exist that the mask mandates for the flights may be removed.
13:06: Interestingly enough, you know who's fighting that the hardest? The flight attendant unit, which just amazes me because you look at the numbers, almost all of the problems that the flight attendants are having with violence and unruly passengers is all about masking.
13:24: So why they are the last ones standing, demanding that this continue to happen,
13:30: I don't know. But that could end next week, really could.
13:37: And so a lot of people are like, well, are you going to start flying again? Well, first of all, I've lost all my privileges. I had high standing, which makes a huge difference in how travel is.
13:55: I could do it and I survived it. I flew 165 ,000 miles in 2019, but I had high standing.
14:05: I was, I could do platinum, all the rest of that stuff, it makes it a whole lot easier. So I don't have a whole lot of interest in it, in flying.
14:17: I have concerns because of how quickly, you know, just because these mandates are disappearing does not mean we've learned our lesson.
14:26: In fact, the lesson that the tyrants have learned is these people will do whatever we tell them to do whenever we tell them to do it.
14:34: All we have to do is scare them. They have removed, they have, what's the term for a spinectomy?
14:42: That's what's happened to people in the West through the educational system. The spine has been removed.
14:49: And so that stuff could come back in a second. And that's why, you know, I look at going overseas and, you know, that could happen at any moment.
15:02: And so I guess Rich got tired of that perspective, so we're back over here now.
15:07: Anyway, here's the issue.
15:16: Minimally, the trip up to Moscow right now, assuming that gas supplies remain available, will cost twice what it did before.
15:32: That's, I mean, the foods could be more expensive, but most importantly, we've got a 26 -gallon tank.
15:37: And especially going up is, you know, through the
15:46: Rockies, there'd be mountains in the way. And so, yeah, it'll cost twice what it did before.
15:54: So basically putting that out there and basically say to our listening audience, if you want to see a debate on paedo -communion, because I think it's a perfect topic because it sheds light on the, you know, we've done paedo -baptism, and the same issues will be involved, but from a completely different perspective.
16:21: And so I think it's gonna be extremely valuable. I think Doug is the best person to do this with.
16:27: I think it'll be done collegially, and therefore there won't be all the other stuff that gets in the way.
16:34: Though, let's be honest, the two debates that I've done, were collegial and nothing got in the way there either.
16:43: And I'm thankful for that. What I mean by stuff getting in the way, look, there are debates where sometimes people are far more concerned about who's gonna win than how they behave.
16:53: And so, yeah, yeah, that does happen.
17:01: That's not gonna happen in this situation. And so I'm just putting it out there that I know that things are gonna be more and more challenging for everyone.
17:14: But if Rich tells me that he starts getting donations to the travel fund that are specifically marked, make sure to get to Idaho and back.
17:26: By the way, we would need enough money to get to Idaho and back. Halfway really doesn't cut it.
17:34: You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, stand by the side of the road next to my RV. Could you pull me?
17:41: That's not gonna work too well. But if Rich tells me he starts seeing travel fund donations that specifically are marked gas for Idaho, then that's people's way of saying, yes, please not only do the debates and the recording of stuff up there and the training up in Utah, but the churches along the way.
18:06: The places that people normally don't stop. The flyover country becomes drive -through country with when
18:18: I'm doing things the way I'm doing things. So I wanted to put that out there that last time, well, last time
18:25: I went up there was during that first spike, but we could literally be looking at double the cost easily just as far as gas is concerned.
18:36: Get up there and back again. So we put that out there and go from there.
18:43: So, all right, a few comments made there along the way at the beginning. I need to lay aside the fact that I don't know everything that's going on in the world and could not possibly untangle the knotted mess that is presented to us every single day.
19:04: And the fact that I honestly recognize that my nation is led by its enemies now.
19:10: We've been, I truly believe we've been taken over from the inside and that the people in charge do not have our best interest in mind at all.
19:20: And just go, Lord, it's in your hands. Need to lay all of that aside.
19:26: And let's talk about scripture and let's talk about things that will be important at any point in history, were in the past, are in the present and will be in the future as well.
19:41: And the secular mind goes, no, but we want to be a part of pushing the kingdom of Christ forward against the secularism of our day, which
19:56: I again believe is one of the greatest enemies that has ever stood in opposition to Jesus Christ.
20:04: And so what we're going to do is I have on our wonderful board, and I keep getting people asking us questions, by the way.
20:13: And I go ahead and I tell people, but we get people asking questions, what is this thing?
20:22: And I've had the folks at the seminary that I teach for, at Grace Bible Theological Seminary, another excellent
20:30: Reform Baptist Seminary that's standing firm as well, just asked me only a couple of days ago, what is that thing?
20:39: We need one. Yes, yes. It is a Samsung Flip 2,
20:47: Flipboard 2. And so obviously we are using it in a wired format at the moment.
20:57: I've been told that there actually is now a Mac app that we're going to go ahead and install, and I just decided that we're not going to do that until we can do plenty of testing.
21:09: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But this is a Samsung Flipboard, and I am using
21:15: Accordance Bible software on it, and you've seen what we're able to do with that, and it is wonderful and awesome and all that kind of, and we haven't honestly really scratched the surface of what this can do, because you can preload stuff on it.
21:31: I've been actually been pretty much of a wimp in my use of it, but you can preload things and then drag screens across and have stuff already there and run it off a jump drive and off the net and go onto the net with it and do all sorts of stuff that I haven't been doing, but it is really nice to be able to do this kind of stuff and then to use it as a standard chalkboard, blackboard, whiteboard, whatever you want to do with it.
22:01: You can use different backgrounds and stuff like that. So for those asking the questions, there you go.
22:07: All right, so having said all of that, what we're going to do is
22:13: I'm going to be responding to the next section from the
22:18: Paulman Hess review of the Potter's Freedom, and again, I mentioned last time or the time before one of the two, just not even sure how much
22:29: I want to invest in this, but as I think you'll see here, we are able to address important subjects exegetically and theologically that are raised here that are common objections, and as long as that remains useful, great, fine, wonderful, once it becomes something less than that, then we move on.
22:56: So we are set up with audio, Lord willing, work before things got started anyways.
23:02: We were set up with audio and let's dive into it. Right, and then
23:07: God, then he says on page 69, God - Okay, by the way, once again, this is the edition that is being reviewed.
23:15: I don't know why. This isn't the current edition, but it's the original edition of the
23:21: Potter's Freedom, so the page numbers will correspond to that, not to the current edition of the book.
23:27: It's not presented in CBF, Chosen But Free, as the free and sovereign elector, but the one who responds to the free choices of men.
23:37: Okay, free and sovereign elector, so the choice of how
23:44: God's gonna glorify himself comes completely from God, or God chooses parameters and then man fills in the rest.
23:57: These are the two positions being contrasted, and that's where the contrast has been down through church history.
24:06: How does that get responded to? Ugh. Why, look, I never got, like, Calvinists have, like, such a big problem if God responds.
24:14: Like, what's wrong with God being responsive? I thought he was free. Right, but look, he's not free to be responsive if he wants.
24:21: I mean, it's another false dichotomy. What if God freely and sovereignly wanted to elect to salvation those who believe?
24:29: Now, think about, for a moment, that is Mr. Paulman speaking there, and obviously his position, he calls himself a historical
24:39: Arminian, is that the extent of God's choice is that God chooses to save those who believe.
24:48: He does not choose who he's going to save, so it is an impersonal choice.
24:56: His choice is a plan. His choice is to provide an opportunity, but it's up to man, which was the point that I was making, and that is the
25:08: Roman Catholic perspective as well, because God chooses a sacramental system, and it's up to mankind to fulfill that sacramental system.
25:19: But this has been the dividing line all along, and so the idea is, well, why couldn't God be free to do it this way?
25:27: Well, the question is, does Scripture say that? But the point is that it is a fundamentally different assertion.
25:34: It is the difference between saying God chooses a plan and saying
25:41: God chooses a people. One is personal, one is not. Just that simple.
25:49: I guess I'm over here talking to the wrong thing. It's just that simple. I mean,
25:55: Scripture literally says this. 1 Corinthians 121, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
26:04: White just doesn't consider that possibility. For what? Now, please, I want everyone to catch how many times this is said.
26:12: I just don't even, but what was the terminology here? To save those who believe.
26:18: White just doesn't consider that possibility. Just doesn't consider that possibility. This is asserted over and over again almost any point where there is a difference of perspective.
26:34: I just don't even consider the other side, allegedly. When the reality is to any person who's read the book, and that's why
26:40: I said before, I don't believe this review is for people who actually have read the book.
26:46: It is intended to keep people from reading the book. Because if you read the book, you will realize that neither of these gentlemen have a high reading comprehension level.
26:58: They break context, they break things apart, they don't see how a chapter is flowing, they don't see what the argument is.
27:07: As far as reviewers go, they really, really, really bad. Just, ugh. I don't know how,
27:14: I don't know what kind of grades they've gotten in doing book reviews, but it's really poor.
27:22: But the assertion is, you've never even given that consideration, he's just ignorant of these things, et cetera, et cetera.
27:29: As we'll see, the book itself demonstrates that's not true. For White, either election is unconditional or it's not sovereign.
27:37: But he gives us no reason to think that it can't be both conditional and sovereign, which just so happens to be what virtually every non -Calvinist believes.
27:47: Now, please notice what he's trying to say there. It is both, the term that he's using there for sovereignty is that God has chosen an impersonal.
28:02: He's chosen class election. But you get to fill in who the class is. And the whole point of the book is, that's the issue.
28:11: That's the whole point. Does God get to elect a particular people personally?
28:18: Or has he sovereignly chosen only to elect a process, a mechanism whereby people can be saved?
28:28: So, I actually just realized that I had had this set up properly before.
28:37: But, and again, I can't wait until I come up with, I think
28:45: I got it there. 1 Corinthians 1, and I believe, yes, there it is.
28:52: Verse 21 is the verse that was cited, saying, well, see, it's right here.
28:58: Here is exactly what I'm saying. This is what the Bible teaches, that God was well -pleased, the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe.
29:08: So there it is. God saves those who believe, not those that he chooses. Okay, this is where we can help
29:18: Mr. Paulman with the issue of context and reading things in context.
29:24: Very, very helpful and very, very important. So, Paul, in writing to the
29:33: Corinthians, he says in verse 17, for Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
29:45: So, he's talking about preaching the gospel. And he says, the word of the cross, now we've gone over this over and over and over again, so I'm not going through all the grammar and stuff like that again.
30:00: Because it was just a few weeks ago that we did this very section, but we're doing it in a little different bit of a context right here.
30:12: So, the word of the cross is foolishness to whom?
30:19: We need to just recognize that the text introduces us to two different groups.
30:27: To, on the one hand, those who are perishing, and on the other hand, so, men day.
30:34: So, here's your men day. So, this on one hand, this on the other hand.
30:40: So, the message of the cross is to those who are perishing, foolishness. But to those who are being saved, it is the power of God.
30:49: And so, right here in the context, you have the introduction of these two classes of the perishing and those who are being saved.
31:00: Now, the synergist will say, and that's just completely up to their own choice. Well, let's see if that's the case.
31:09: Let's see if that continues on through the rest of the text.
31:18: For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever
31:24: I will set aside. Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater or the disputer of this age?
31:31: Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not come to know
31:45: God. So, hmm, that needs to be kept in mind. The world through its wisdom does not come to know
31:52: God. God was well -pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save the believing ones.
32:01: Well, no one's denying that believing ones are saved. The question is, who are these believing ones?
32:11: For indeed, Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom. But we proclaim
32:18: Christ, estaro menon, crucified, to the
32:24: Jews, indeed, a scandalon, to the Gentiles, morion, foolishness.
32:32: But, right here, and we'll go ahead and activate the screen again.
32:44: So we have a scandal to the Jews, foolishness to the
32:51: Gentiles, but to those who are what?
32:59: Tois, kleitos, to the called, to the called ones.
33:08: Now, the very meaning of kleitos requires an external force that does the calling.
33:18: This is not people calling themselves, but to those who are called, both
33:26: Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
33:37: So, Christ is seen as the power of God and the wisdom of God if you are the called, whether Jews or Greeks.
33:44: If you're not amongst the called, then Christ is foolishness, a scandalon.
33:52: Christ is either a scandalon or foolishness. So what makes the difference?
34:00: Calling, right there, calling. It's in the context, right?
34:06: This is the same context, right? Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, the weakness of God is stronger than men, for look to your what?
34:19: Your calling, brethren. Look to your calling. That there are not many wise, according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, but God has what?
34:41: Now, this is a, it's a related term. God has chosen.
34:51: God has chosen the foolish things of the world. Then you might shame the wise.
34:58: And God has chosen the weak things of the world. So there's God's, and notice what comes afterwards.
35:08: Hatheas, hathe. God's choice, God's choice. Not our choice,
35:14: God's choice. That he might shame the things which are strong. The base things of the world, and the despised
35:21: God has chosen. Notice something here? You see a pattern here? Three times in a row,
35:29: God has chosen. Not we chose, God has chosen.
35:35: The base things of the world, and the despised, things that are not, so he might nullify the things that are. Why? So that passah, sarks, and opiah, all flesh before God may not what?
35:54: Boast. May not boast. No boasting.
36:03: Oh, but I'm, I'm prime meat. I'm choice meat.
36:11: I followed the Father, and because I followed the Father, then I'm prime meat.
36:19: And so I will be given to the Son as a result of my having been following the
36:25: Father. We'll see that in John six. Well, that's the exact opposite we'll see in John six, but that's the argument.
36:33: A lot of people don't see this, because maybe it just doesn't jump out at folks.
36:39: But this is sort of vitally important. Ex altu, but by his doing, you are in Christ Jesus.
36:59: By his doing, you are in Christ Jesus. And again, the sinner just goes, of course, of course.
37:07: It's all of God. God made the way possible, and God extended the grace.
37:13: And what we're going to discover for Paulman and Haas, Paulman and Haas have a massive role of Arminian duct tape.
37:27: Arminian duct tape. What is Arminian duct tape?
37:35: Arminian duct tape is called prevenient grace, okay?
37:42: Prevenient grace. We got prevenient grace.
37:53: Grace. Grace that comes before and enables.
38:04: And if you listen carefully, I don't even think they realize how often they rely upon. But their idea is
38:11: God has given everybody prevenient grace. And this prevenient grace evidently somehow undoes the result of original sin.
38:27: Everybody's brought back to a moral neutral point where they can then make a free decision.
38:34: Everybody gets prevenient grace. The one thing they forget to do is ever demonstrate where the
38:42: Bible talks about prevenient grace, because here's the problem. It never does.
38:51: But the Arminian system is held together. Remember, I've told the story in the past.
38:57: And I have to tell it again because it's important. Back when
39:03: I was a younger, you know, young teen, maybe even before my teen years, I wanted to have those really cool models of B -17s and jet aircraft and stuff like that.
39:17: But I was not the most patient young man. And the instructions would say, glue this part to that part, set aside to allow to dry for like 20 minutes.
39:34: I didn't want to wait that long. And so I'd glue them together and then I'd use cellophane tape.
39:41: I'd tape the stuff together. That didn't work well. That really, really did not work well.
39:50: But that's what prevenient grace is. It's the cellophane tape that holds the entire Arminian system together.
39:56: Without it, it all just explodes all over the place. There's one problem. It's nowhere in scripture.
40:03: I'm not just simply saying the obvious thing that the phrase prevenient grace does not appear in scripture.
40:10: What I'm saying is the entire concept of an unsaving grace that is not even intended to save, but is only intended to remove the effects of the fall so that man is in a position of moral neutrality.
40:33: There is nothing in scripture that even hints at such a concept.
40:41: I remember I mentioned on the program a couple of years ago, I'd purchased a book called Prevenient Grace.
40:47: I'm like, you know, I'd like to see how this is substantiated.
40:53: And so I start reading this book and I'm stunned. I'm just stunned.
41:01: The whole thing is, well, it has to exist, otherwise the Calvinists are right. Oh, okay.
41:10: That's great argumentation. At least there's some honesty there. So when they see, but by him, by his doing, ex autu, you are in Christ Jesus.
41:27: As long as you have this prevenient grace idea up here, you go, oh, well, yes, you see,
41:33: God gives prevenient grace and he makes things available. And that's his part.
41:43: So by his making it available, you put yourself in Christ Jesus.
41:55: Paul said, but by his doing, you're in Christ Jesus. Who became just wisdom of God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.
42:04: And notice the importance of the context here. So that just as it is written, let him who boasts, boast in the
42:18: Lord. That's the same sentence. By him, you're in Christ Jesus.
42:25: In order that just as it stands written, the one boasting in the Lord, let him boast.
42:31: You're going to boast. You can't boast in yourself. And so if you have a system where you can take by him and turn it into by me, you don't understand what the
42:43: New Testament is saying. You don't get it. Okay?
42:49: Now this is the context, 1 Corinthians. This is called doing echo Jesus in context. And so you have the election of God before, you have the election of God after.
43:02: And so when you get to the one verse that was quoted by Paulman, where he says, well, look, yeah, you know, it's right there in verse 21.
43:15: God was well pleased with the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. Who are those who believe? Those who are called by God.
43:26: So there you go. Sort of important to look at context each and every time that we look at, this is interesting.
43:36: I was actually seeing where my cursor was on the screen over there. And over here, it's actually sort of helpful to do it that way.
43:45: All right, we press forward. Yeah, yeah, we'll just briefly hit it. He quotes the 1689
43:50: Baptist confession on page 68. R .C. Sproul, page 69 through 70. Charles Hodge.
43:57: Now, let me just mention in passing here, one of the criticisms that Paulman repeats a number of times, and I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a real tone to the young man's voice.
44:19: And what you'll hear a number of times is why aren't you quoting Arminians?
44:27: You say Arminians believe this, but why aren't you quoting Arminians? And of course, it's a book responding to Norman Geisler specifically, who called himself a moderate
44:41: Calvinist. We were demonstrating that moderate Calvinism is Arminianism, but that's what we were responding to.
44:48: But you need to be quoting Arminians. And there was a whole discussion about how many Arminians were quoted in the book.
44:54: And I have all sorts of Arminians in my library. And if I wanted to write a different book than a response to Norman Geisler, then
45:03: I might've done that. But it's fascinating. You need to be quoting Arminians. And then we listen to this.
45:11: Yeah, yeah, let's just briefly hit it. He quotes the 1689 Baptist Confession on page 68.
45:17: R .C. Sproul, page 69 through 70. Charles Hodge, page 71. And that's a really long quote there.
45:25: So let me just reiterate again. I don't really care how many people agree with what he's saying.
45:30: I'm really a lot more interested in what the scripture has to say. And perhaps the reason why
45:36: White feels the need to quote these sources in support of his views is because he can't quote scripture to support them.
45:43: I just, I don't regard these sources as authoritative. And I mean, as a good reformer who believes in sola scriptura, neither should
45:51: White. Again, I just, I can't believe that Mr.
45:59: Paulman has this bad an ability to read a book. And to,
46:05: I mean, anybody out there who's read this is sitting there going, what is this kid talking about? The book is thick with exegesis.
46:15: It's thick with biblical citation. But I'm defining the parameters and the issues.
46:22: Historically, in these first chapters. And what's interesting is they're about to get to the section on a biblical anthropology.
46:29: They skip over the vast majority of my biblical citations and don't even try to respond to them. And what's the way they do it?
46:37: Prevenient grace. Well, if he's got prevenient grace, he wouldn't have to worry about all this stuff. The incoherence and the contradiction is pretty astonishing.
46:49: It really is. But we continue. It's either, because you say in Reformed theology that we are incapable of seeing or responding to God unless he does it for us.
47:00: So it has to be by coercion. By definition, it has to be by coercion. Now, we get into a section here where we will provide numerous quotations here.
47:12: You will hear them saying it for themselves. These gentlemen really, really do not understand
47:20: Reformed theology. They refuse to understand Reformed theology. They refuse to allow us to define
47:26: Reformed theology for them. They believe they know so much more about all these things than silly little old me could ever understand, obviously.
47:36: But most importantly, here you have Hess, and this is one of the main problems of Mr.
47:42: Hess. He's come to his conclusions and he will not accept correction. And when it comes to the issue of what the nature of, for example, regeneration is, saving grace is, the taking out of a heart of stone, the giving a heart of flesh, you just heard him say it.
48:06: It is by definition coercion. By definition.
48:15: And so when we would say, when I've used the example that I've used often, because there were only a few years in between these experiences in my life, when
48:30: I was Department Fellow of Anatomy and Physiology at Grand Canyon University, Grand Canyon College back then, under Dr.
48:39: James Witherspoon, I gave demonstrations of our cadavers. We had chemically stored cadavers.
48:46: They were not cold stored, they were chemically stored with a substance that was later determined to be cancer -causing.
48:53: But anyway, but thankfully, I've survived that over all these years, so I'll probably be okay now.
49:01: We're all fine here now, thank you. Anyway, yeah, how are you? That's like the only movie you saw when you were a kid.
49:10: It's probably the only one I ever showed in Prescott, but anyway, long way up that hill on horseback.
49:18: But what were we talking about? Oh yes, and so I was able to do anything
49:26: I wanted to to those cadavers. I could pull the top of the head off the one and take out the brain and demonstrate the brain.
49:39: I could take the chest off the other and we could look at the heart and the lungs.
49:45: Oh man, this guy had smoked his entire life. Oh, poor man. You could literally point to the part, the place on his heart that had basically blown up when he died.
49:57: Anywhere you cut in his lungs, black as soot. It was astonishing, chain smoker.
50:03: Anyway, but you know what? In the entire time that I did that, that hand never came up and grabbed my hand to try to stop me because they were dead.
50:17: And so these gentlemen simply refuse to accept, and they're even going to read the words.
50:23: It's amazing. They will read the words where I will define the category in which we are asserting based on biblical evidence that man lacks the ability to do what is good in God's sight.
50:43: But then I will also point out that it is not that man, in fact, does not respond to God.
50:53: It is that man always responds negatively by suppressing the knowledge of God.
51:01: Catechondrum from Romans chapter one. Holding down, suppressing knowledge of God. It can be done religiously.
51:06: It can be done non -religiously. It can be done in a myriad of ways. The man's mind is amazing in the ways that we express our rebellion against God.
51:19: And so what the other side wants to try to do is instead of recognizing the categories of our own claims and of the biblical text, they want to go, well, either you are able to respond completely, categorically to all things.
51:39: You're able to do what is good before God. You're able to respond to everything in the fallen state or you're dead in the grave.
51:49: It's got to be one of those two extremes. There can be nothing in between. And the in between, of course, is what scripture tells.
51:58: Is that as Jesus said, if you commit sin, what are you?
52:05: You are the slave of sin. Now, do slaves respond?
52:12: Do slaves act? Do slaves do things? Of course they do. Of course they do, but they're still slaves.
52:19: And the one thing they cannot do is de -slave themselves.
52:24: They cannot free themselves. The son has to do that, right? So these are the biblical categories.
52:31: They just don't want to accept the biblical categories. They go, no, I'm going to tell you what you believe. And I'm going to tell you what categories you're in.
52:38: And I'm going to ignore everything you say. That's unfortunately very, very common in these conversations.
52:45: And that's what we get here as well. As God made me do it. In fact, actually, another thing
52:50: Jordan said today on the podcast, I thought it was great. It was, if God commands all things, including evil, then that means doing evil is good.
52:59: Because if all things that God commands is good, then you can't escape the logic there. But this...
53:05: You can't escape the logic there. Well, you really can if you have a Bible in your hand, okay?
53:11: Because logic based on something other than divine revelation will always start at the wrong place.
53:18: And so we can give clear examples of where that statement is false.
53:27: And so we can, and this is why we've gone to these places, because they're sufficient in and of themselves and no meaningful response has ever been offered.
53:38: We can go to Genesis 50, and we can go to the recognition that what was done by Joseph's brothers was intended by them for evil, but was intended by God for good.
53:57: One action, intentionality on the part of both God and the brothers.
54:03: The intentionality for the brothers is evil, therefore they are judged on the basis of their intentions.
54:09: Intentionality on God's part in decreeing that Joseph must go to Egypt to save many people alive is good.
54:21: Isaiah chapter 10, Acts chapter 4. There are numerous other places we could go in the lives of the prophets and what happened with Jeremiah and so on and so forth.
54:31: But there is the biblical worldview over against the non -biblical, well, that's just the logic.
54:40: The statement that had been made on the podcast was biblically absurd and should be recognized as biblically absurd.
54:49: As a consequence of his fall into a state of sin, man has lost all ability to will the -
54:55: Okay, now he's quoting me now. Okay, so that you can sort of tell when he's reading from me.
55:02: And so listen to the quote. As a consequence of his fall into a state of sin, man has lost all ability to will the performance of any of those works, spiritually good, that accompanies salvation.
55:15: As a natural unspiritual man, he is dead in sin and altogether opposed to that which is good.
55:23: Now, is that clear? I mean, that is somewhat of a complex sentence in the sense that it has more than one clause in it.
55:33: And so some people really struggle with sentences like that.
55:38: But I think most people understand exactly what I was saying. There is a specific realm that involves the submission of our heart and mind to our
55:51: God. And when Adam rebelled against God's command, he plunged his progeny into ruin and rebellion.
56:03: And so we are born, and this is something this guy really, really dislikes, but we are born with that rebellion as a part of our nature.
56:15: And every single parent sees it with any two -year -old. It doesn't even take till they're two.
56:22: Okay? And so there are certain areas. Now, even the most rebellious person can submit to someone they hate for their own purposes.
56:37: But what we are saying, man who sets the mind upon the flesh rather than the things of the spirit cannot do what is pleasing to God and cannot submit to God's law.
56:55: Now, could a person submit to God's law in regards to the eating of certain foods because they recognize it has a benefit to them?
57:09: Of course, but that's not submission to the law for the purpose of obedience to God. It's submission to the law for the purpose of improving my own life.
57:20: Could a person submit to God's law in not having illicit sexual relations with your neighbor's wife because your neighbor happens to be extremely well -armed and trained in martial arts?
57:34: Well, yes, you're submitting to God's law by not touching her because of what reason?
57:40: Not because of your love for God, but because you love your own life. Okay? That's the difference between the two.
57:51: And it's plain what I'm saying. In sin and altogether opposed to that which is good.
57:57: Hence, he is not able by any strength of his own to turn himself to God or even prepare himself to turn to God.
58:04: There is not a singular supporting verse in Scripture with that conclusion. Not a single one.
58:11: Not a single one. You hear that? I mean, there
58:17: I have just laid out man's deadness in sin. Man's inability.
58:25: John chapter eight. Commit sin, the slave of sin, the son must set you free.
58:31: There's your verse refuted immediately, straightforwardly. I mean, it's right there.
58:38: Romans one, Romans three. Right there. I mean, on the surface.
58:45: And this was central to the issue of the Reformation, even though there were certainly
58:50: Roman Catholics who had a much more biblical view of anthropology than Chesed.
58:57: Much higher view than Chesed. Amazing. All right.
59:04: He begins with Genesis six, five on page 79. Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their heart was only evil continually.
59:17: Now, White takes this verse very literally as he stresses that the verse says that absolutely every thought and intention was wicked.
59:25: Now, even if we read this text with White's hyper -literalism, this statement is delimited to the world before the flood.
59:34: So White cannot really conclude from this that therefore all men at all times since the fall have only had evil thoughts and intentions continually.
59:43: More significantly. Okay. Page 79.
59:50: The biblical doctrine of total depravity combines the truth of man's createdness, the pot that is formed by the potter, with the truth of man as sinner.
59:58: The results of the view of a man that is preeminently biblical and perfectly in line with what we see in mankind all around us.
01:00:04: To say something is a biblical doctrine requires that we demonstrate this from the text. Briefly, here are a few of the more important passages teaching the reformed doctrine of the total depravity of man and the bondage of man in sin.
01:00:15: From the earliest records of the Bible, we see that man's corruption extends to his very heart. So what is it
01:00:20: I'm saying? I am saying here is a text that tells us from the earliest records of the
01:00:25: Bible, we see that man's corruption extends to his very heart.
01:00:32: Then Yahweh saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
01:00:41: I didn't write those words. If you want to have a problem, take it up with Moses. That's what
01:00:47: Moses wrote. Then I continue. This corruption is internal and complete.
01:00:54: Every intent of the thoughts of man's heart was only evil continually. Quoting again from Scripture.
01:01:02: This is radical corruption, not mere sickness. Such a person is not spiritually challenged, but is in firm and resolute rebellion against God.
01:01:10: The flood took these people away. Now, what was his argument just there? Well, that was before the flood.
01:01:16: What about afterwards? The text says, the flood took these people away, yet even after the flood,
01:01:23: God says, quote, Yahweh smelled the soothing aroma, and Yahweh said to himself,
01:01:28: I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth, and I will never again destroy every living thing as I have done,
01:01:38: Genesis 8, 21. Man's radical corruption has not changed.
01:01:43: From his youth, man's heart is evil, yet not just once in a while, but continually.
01:01:50: Can good come forth from an evil heart? Men like to think so, yet the Bible says otherwise. Quote, can the
01:01:56: Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good who are accustomed to doing evil,
01:02:02: Jeremiah 13, 23. Just as a person cannot change the color of their skin or the leopard its spots, so the one who practices evil cannot break the bondage of sin and start doing good.
01:02:12: The corruption is indelible and can only be removed by a radical change of the heart. Surely this is not the belief of most of mankind.
01:02:18: Films, books, and the mass media is constantly telling us that there is a spark of good in the heart of man that is just begging to be fanned into a flame.
01:02:26: So pervasive is this belief that many in the Christian faith have drunk deeply at this well of humanism and have allowed society rather than scripture to determine their view of man.
01:02:35: But the consistent testimony of the word is beyond question. Quote, the heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick.
01:02:42: Who can understand it? Jeremiah 17, 9. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity and in sin my mother conceived me.
01:02:48: Psalm 51, 5. The wicked are estranged from the womb. They who speak lies go astray from birth.
01:02:54: Psalm 58, 3. It is incredible to see Christians saying, well, that refers to only some people.
01:03:00: See, it says, though these who speak lies go astray from birth. Is there any person who truly knows their own heart who has not confessed they lie regularly, if not in word, then in their heart, even to God?
01:03:12: Who does not lie? Someone might say, but it says the wicked are estranged from the womb. Not everyone.
01:03:18: But does not every Christian confess that we were once children of wrath, even as the rest? Ephesians 2, 3. The true believer knows well the corruption from which
01:03:25: Christ has rescued us. It's interesting. I don't think that I have it here. I'm not sure, but I know, in having listened to it more than once, that Hesse's response to the
01:03:37: Genesis 8 text was, well, it says from youth, not from birth, as if that somehow has a meaning.
01:03:48: That was the context. Almost all those passages are ignored by them.
01:03:53: So these passages don't really help White's case. Once again, I agree with White that people aren't able to believe the gospel without being enabled by God, but I'm just not gonna use those verses to make my case because they don't get you there.
01:04:06: Now, did you hear what he said? And Hesse is gonna disagree with him on that. Enabled by God.
01:04:14: What's that? Prevenient grace. Prevenient grace. So you just, again, it's the duct tape of Rominianism.
01:04:22: You just throw out prevenient grace. Never demonstrate it, but you throw it out. Yeah, I guess
01:04:28: I'll try to hit as briefly as possible the other verses that White tries to use to make his case. He cites
01:04:33: Romans 8, 6 through 8. We read that, you know, the mind which is set on the flesh can't please God. White argues from that verse that the lost man cannot please
01:04:44: God. If repentance and faith, are repentance and faith pleasing to God? Yes, therefore regeneration must take place first.
01:04:51: That's page 84. And he makes the same argument again on page 115 through 116.
01:04:57: Now, notice that White changed what was said in this verse. The verse does not say that the lost cannot please
01:05:06: God, like White does. It actually says that those who are in the flesh or have set their mind on the flesh cannot please
01:05:14: God. So the question we wanna answer is this. What does it mean to be in the flesh or to have your mind set on the flesh in the context of this passage?
01:05:24: Is that a synonym for being lost? I don't think so. I believe that this is a reference to a lifestyle.
01:05:30: Okay, all right. Let me, now a bunch of stuff was skipped over by them.
01:05:36: Cause I don't, I don't, I am certain that David Paulman could come up with an excuse for any passage.
01:05:43: But as we're seeing, not exegesis for these passages. A number of pages had been jumped over from where we last were.
01:05:52: But the Romans 8 citation is found on page 84. Let me give you the context.
01:05:59: When the scriptures say that men are spiritually dead, we are not to understand this to mean that they are spiritually inactive.
01:06:05: They're actually gonna quote this a little bit later on. Men are active in their rebellion, active in their suppression of the truth, active in their sin.
01:06:13: Instead, spiritual death refers to alienation from God, the destruction of the positive, active desire to do what is right in God's sight.
01:06:23: And most importantly, the ability to do what is good and holy. It is this last assertion that is often denied.
01:06:33: Though the scriptural testimony is strong and unequivocal. And then
01:06:38: I quote Romans 8, 6 -8. So what was, what was the context? It is this, and most importantly, the ability to do what is good and holy.
01:06:51: That's the context that I then gave to this text. Then I said, the fleshly unregenerate mind is hostile toward God, never neutral, for it does not subject itself to the law of God.
01:07:08: But it is the assertion that follows this that can cause so many to stumble. The fleshly mind is not able.
01:07:16: Subjection to God's law is outside the capacity of the fallen man. Since we know that God's law commands us to repent and believe as well as to perform that which is righteous in God's sight, we can see the tremendous extent of the corruption of human nature and the resultant spiritual inability.
01:07:38: Okay? So what was the answer that was just given?
01:07:43: Let's hear it again. It actually says that those who are in the flesh or have set their mind on the flesh cannot please
01:07:53: God. So the question we want to answer is this. What does it mean to be in the flesh or to have your mind set on the flesh in the context of this passage?
01:08:02: Is that a synonym for being lost? I don't think so. I believe that this is a reference to a lifestyle of indulging in worldly sinful behaviors.
01:08:12: Okay. So here we have our first test of the great
01:08:17: Dr. Paulman as an exegete. Is that what we have?
01:08:23: Is the idea of the mindset on the flesh a person indulging in these worldly lusts and desires, but it doesn't mean that they're lost or not lost?
01:08:35: Well, let's allow the context to tell us. Romans 8 .4. So at the requirement of law,
01:08:41: I'm sorry, I need to roll this back one bit here.
01:08:47: All right. What the law could not do, weeks it was to the flesh, God did sending his own son in likeness to sinful flesh.
01:08:54: And as an offering for sin, he condemned sin to flesh so that the requirement of the law might be fulfilled in who?
01:09:03: In us who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.
01:09:11: So here is your language. So you've got the ones may kata sarka walking, a law in the adversative kata pneuma, according to the spirit.
01:09:26: So here's your two groups right here. Anyplace else where Paul has two different groups, we just saw it.
01:09:38: Apollumenos in 1 Corinthians 1, those who are perishing, those are being saved. Those who are according to the flesh, walking according to the flesh, those according to spirit.
01:09:46: Well, what we're being told is no, no, that doesn't necessarily mean anything there.
01:09:53: Oh, okay. All right. Let's keep looking. For those who are according to the flesh, set their minds in the things of the flesh.
01:10:04: Now let me just stop and ask a simple, basic question. Always?
01:10:11: Is this just a statement that, well, those who are according to the flesh might set their minds in the things of the flesh, but they might set their minds in the things of the spirit.
01:10:20: If it's being suggested to us that this isn't actually talking about those who are in Christ, those who are not, then that would be a possibility, right?
01:10:30: Let's see if that makes any sense. But those who are according to the spirit, the things of the spirit.
01:10:39: For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God.
01:10:51: So those whose mind is set on the flesh are expressing hostility toward God.
01:10:58: What had this particular author said just a few chapters earlier?
01:11:05: Therefore, having been justified by faith. What? We have what with God?
01:11:11: Peace with God. These are people who are hostile towards God. How does
01:11:17: Paul describe hostility toward God? Who is hostile toward God? The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God for it does not subject itself to the law of God for it is not even able to do so.
01:11:37: Ooh, dunanti, huh. Well, it's repeated twice.
01:11:45: Ude, dunati, and then cannot please God is found down here too.
01:11:51: So you have two places where ability, dunanti and dunati with the negative.
01:12:01: They are not, here is subjection. They are not able to be subject to the law of God.
01:12:09: So are these people who sometimes can and then sometimes can't, then sometimes can, then sometimes can, depending on them, is that what we're being told?
01:12:21: Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. They can't.
01:12:28: Well, it's as long as they're in the flesh, but then they can stop being in the flesh and then they can be pleasing to God.
01:12:35: Maybe that's the idea. Well, let's keep looking.
01:12:44: Ah, look at verse nine. However, you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the spirit of God dwells in you, but if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.
01:13:05: Huh. It sounds like what's saying there is that you are not in the flesh, but you are in numity, if indeed the spirit of God dwells in you.
01:13:23: So I'm not sure if the idea is that when your mind's in the flesh, the spirit leaves you, comes in, leaves you, goes back and forth.
01:13:33: What is the spirit according to Paul? He is the Arabon, right? The down payment, the surety pledge of our redemption.
01:13:43: But here's, obviously, verse nine closes the door on all of this.
01:13:49: But if anyone does not have the spirit of Christ, he does not belong. If you do not have the spirit of Christ, you don't belong.
01:14:01: So who's in the spirit? Those who are in Christ. So who was being discussed in this text? Those who are in the flesh are not in Christ, and they cannot submit themselves to the law of God.
01:14:12: They cannot please God. What I said in the book was exactly accurate. And Mr.
01:14:18: Paulman has not given us a response that has any meaningful merit to it whatsoever.
01:14:28: That's why I say, it just seems to me that the idea here is, just don't read the book. Just believe us when we tell you how bad it is.
01:14:38: And that's not a good way of doing things. Get my cursor back across.
01:14:45: There it is. I'm gonna have to play this to see if this was.
01:14:54: We'll save a detailed analysis of John six. And make sure this was. Yeah, I guess
01:15:01: I'll try to hit as briefly as possible. The other verses that way. Yeah, okay. Once the cursor moves, it's just colored blocks.
01:15:08: It's just like, I don't know. Okay, so I'm gonna press on here another 15 or so.
01:15:18: See how far we can get. And because now we get.
01:15:23: Now, this isn't the in -depth section on John six.
01:15:31: But you are gonna get an idea of what's going on here. And in essence, what we've got is we have a flowers.
01:15:43: We have a flowers response, believe it or not. Well, it makes sense.
01:15:49: Paulman is a student at the same school. So that's probably where he's gotten it.
01:15:56: And so if you've listened, if you listened to Pastor Gabe's debate with Leighton Flowers a couple months ago, you've heard part of this.
01:16:06: It's the choice meets interpretation of John six. Let's take a listen to it.
01:16:14: Oops, help if the cursor was over here again. There we go. We'll save a detailed analysis of John six for later on.
01:16:23: Here, I'm just gonna briefly offer my own thoughts as to what Jesus means in John 644. In short,
01:16:30: I believe that this statement is historically delimited to the time of Jesus's ministry on earth.
01:16:36: The Gospel of John recognizes a class of people who cannot believe on Christ and a class of people who certainly will.
01:16:44: I see evidence throughout the Old Testament and the Gospel of John, which supports that those who cannot believe on Christ have ignored the previous revelations from God in Moses and the prophets.
01:16:55: Whereas those who have received God's revelation will most definitely believe on Christ, right?
01:17:00: Jesus said, if you believe Moses, you would have believed me. So the explanation for who believes and who does not is conditional upon the actions of the individual.
01:17:10: The drawing in verse 44 parallels the giving in verse 37. The giving in verse 37 is a present tense verb.
01:17:17: So the giving and drawing in John 637 and 644 refer to actions that God is presently doing at the time
01:17:23: Jesus is speaking. Jesus says that no man can presently come to him unless the father draws him.
01:17:30: He does not say that no man can ever come to him without being drawn in the way that John 644 describes.
01:17:37: Again, as an Arminian, I do believe that God has to enable people to believe through provenient grace, but that is not what
01:17:44: John 644 is describing. This verse refers to the father's present action relative to the time that Jesus said it of drawing the faithful children of Israel to their
01:17:53: Messiah. And again, John 1232 looks forward to that future drawing of all people when
01:17:59: Jesus says that when he is raised up, he'll draw all men to himself. All right, so you should recognize that by now.
01:18:08: Shall we call this the flowerian interpretation now or the choice meats interpretation?
01:18:15: I like choice meats better. Some people have found some stores that are actually called choice meats and they've been posting memes from that.
01:18:25: Oh, there's so many things here. Target -rich environment, as someone might say.
01:18:33: All right, John 637 was mentioned there, and so let's start with the real problem.
01:18:44: We have a assertion being made that somehow in the
01:18:53: Gospel of John, I'm not sure if it's all of John, we're never told, there are certain people who are being judged by God and they're the ones being talked about.
01:19:09: That there were other people, because what Flowers does is he, again, as everybody does, they invert the text.
01:19:18: He goes down to 645 and comes up with an isogetical theory that there are people who learned from God, they were the choice meats.
01:19:29: They were the good people. They were better than the other people. And so they've already been worshiping the
01:19:35: Father and because they're worshiping the Father, then they're given by the Father to the Son and therefore they will believe.
01:19:42: That's what you just heard. And then the people who didn't do that won't be given, but it's only during this time period.
01:19:53: Now think about it. Is that just for John six? Is that for all of John six?
01:20:00: How about the stuff about eating his flesh and drinking his blood? Is that only back then or is that real now?
01:20:05: And how can you tell? These people cannot answer these questions because they're making it up as they're going along.
01:20:13: They're making it up as they're going along. Is John five? What about John four? What about the woman at the well?
01:20:21: Was she choice meats? She hadn't been instructed. How could she be choice meats? What about John three?
01:20:31: I hear you have someone who has been instructed, but he doesn't immediately fall after Jesus. So is he choice meats?
01:20:38: Or is he under this hardening? We aren't told. This is the same time as Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
01:20:46: Do we have to go to Matthew, Mark, and Luke and apply this whole interpretational strategy to everything they say too?
01:20:55: Folks, this is what happens when you just simply will not be submissive description.
01:21:01: You come up with a system. You come up with a claim and you filter out all of that which goes against your system.
01:21:09: And that's what they're doing here. So we looked at a comment was made about John 637 and oh, well, this is a present tense verb.
01:21:23: No, it's not. It's a participle. Well, participles have verbal aspects.
01:21:30: That's true, they do. But here's your problem, Mr. Paulman. Here, will come to me.
01:21:39: It's not a present tense. Future tense. And when you take a present tense participle, which is functioning substantively here, all the ones which the father gives to me, all right, here is the issue right here.
01:22:03: The father's giving. You know what? Hold on a second.
01:22:09: Hold on a second. He went the other direction. I need to go the other direction if I'm going to accurately represent it. I don't want to be accused of he went to 44 first and then went backwards.
01:22:20: So let's, got to be very, very careful about what we're doing. All right.
01:22:29: Here is, sorry. Here's 44 and 45, right?
01:22:36: All right. No one is able to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up on the last day.
01:22:44: That is now being paralleled with what? Got to keep these things straight. I apologize for jumping ahead of myself and probably getting to the wrong group.
01:22:55: This is supposed to go to where? John 12. We've talked about this a million times.
01:23:01: I'm not going to, not going to jump to John 12 right now. We're going to wait for later on. Here is
01:23:07: Udais Dunatai, not able to come to me.
01:23:14: So what we're being told, I'm sorry, am I messing you up where I'm standing? Because I'm trying to see this from over here, because I, all right.
01:23:22: No one is able to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him. Right now.
01:23:29: Right now. This is why I should have started here. I apologize for going to the point. This is during Jesus's ministry, right?
01:23:41: Unless something happens. And I'm going to assume that what's going to be said is, yeah, you go down here, verse 45.
01:23:48: These are the people who believe. But then you went up all the way to verse 37 and the assertion was being made.
01:23:58: Let me open up a window here. Man, I really wish. Sorry, the things up at the top just simply disappear.
01:24:11: That's not going to do it. All right.
01:24:25: So my assumption is what he was saying, and I need to, all right.
01:24:32: Now we'll get this one right. What he's saying is, this is present tense and it is a verb.
01:24:38: This is not a article right here. This present tense verb, however, here is the controlling verb.
01:24:46: That's what I was trying to point out before. All which, so here's your subject, which the father is giving me prosima hexa.
01:25:00: Hexa. So you have the controlling verb right here.
01:25:09: Here is the question. And this is what I was trying to get to. Controlling verb is hexa.
01:25:17: Hexa, that's not really common, but it is said that all will come what?
01:25:30: Prosima. And the one coming, and this is what I was trying to get to earlier.
01:25:37: And I think I probably circled the wrong word. The one coming to me, I will never cast out.
01:25:45: So we have a present tense. We have a future tense. And then right here, because this is what's going to fill in down here.
01:25:57: Now we have the one coming to me. I will never cast out.
01:26:05: And this is the articular participle, the one coming to me.
01:26:11: So this is going to become the one believing in me, the one hearing from the father.
01:26:17: This is your key. I wish, I'm trying to, there's no open spot.
01:26:29: To draw anything. Got all this space. Can I move over to the next thing over there?
01:26:37: Maybe I can, is there a second flip board? Okay, let me see if I can keep this big enough.
01:26:52: Here we go. Let me see if I can keep this big enough.
01:27:01: No, no, no, no, no, I'm trying, I'm trying to, okay, I think
01:27:06: I can do it this way. All right, so we have, oh, it does work, okay.
01:27:15: I wasn't sure if I was going to have to use the mask thing. Okay, giving me, will come, the one coming.
01:27:38: All right, so we have a present tense verb, we have a future tense, and now the result of these two together is what?
01:27:47: We have a participle, the one coming to me.
01:27:54: Now here's the question. If the,
01:28:00: I'm not sure that's, no, that's not, yeah, I know that, I know that, I know that. I realized if I was going to,
01:28:05: I don't think I can mask it when it's small though, can
01:28:11: I? I don't even see how I would. There's no little thing in the bobby.
01:28:18: We're learning folks, we're learning as we're trying to do stuff here. No, I did,
01:28:24: I did. And it does things here, but there may be a way to do it.
01:28:30: Maybe I'll learn it later. Anyway, giving the one, who is giving here?
01:28:37: The father is giving all to me, and by being given by the father, they will come.
01:28:48: And those who are coming become this group, which then will be all the way down through the rest of the verse.
01:28:57: Here's the question, this is what I was trying to get to, and I couldn't start here because we didn't have the background.
01:29:06: What is the relationship between this did a sin moy and aches
01:29:16: I, why do I ask? Think about it.
01:29:23: All, now see, flowers did this in the debate with Pastor Gabe.
01:29:31: Flowers did something with, what was it? Who receive an invitation to the wedding,
01:29:39: I think is what it was, something along those lines. It missed the relationship of present tense with the future tense.
01:29:52: All that the father is giving me will come to me.
01:29:59: And we're being told that, well, that's right now. But wait a minute, who is being given to the son?
01:30:13: From the provisionist perspective, it's the choice me. It's the people who are already worshiping
01:30:20: God. So if they are being, if there is, we're being told in some way, shape or form that this is only true here, this is no longer true.
01:30:35: At least I think that's what I was hearing being said, is this isn't true anymore, right?
01:30:42: Yeah, it's not true anymore. There is no one who is being given to the father, being given by the father to the son the way they were back then.
01:30:56: I don't know what's changed, but it has something to do with John 12. And all men are now drawn.
01:31:04: But this says, all the father gives me. Now there is argument about how far you can press present tense versus aorist in a lot of the scholarship right now, a lot of discussion and a lot of what we were taught in the olden days is being disputed.
01:31:30: But let's say this is not just a nomic present, but let's say there is an emphasis for some reason that this is right now, not in the future.
01:31:41: It says they will come to me and the one who comes to me, I will certainly not cast out.
01:31:47: Here's the question, which determines the other? Because in the assertion that was being made, why is someone being given by the father to the son?
01:32:05: Why is someone being given by the father to the son? Because they're already worshiping the father.
01:32:15: So there is something in them, their choice me. But the reality is when you have the present and the future, it is the giving of the father that determines the coming.
01:32:35: That's what brings it about. Oh, well, yeah, but they had already come to the father.
01:32:42: So you have to come to the father and then you'll be given to the son. Why doesn't it say that here?
01:32:52: And why is it that verse 37 is explaining verse 36? What does it say?
01:33:00: But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. He's explaining their unbelief.
01:33:06: He's explaining their unbelief. And who is believing the son? Those given by the father.
01:33:13: The father's choice comes first. The result is coming to the son.
01:33:22: And then that then becomes the participial phrase, the one coming, the one seeing, the one learning, the one believing.
01:33:31: That's what I was trying to get to earlier on is the use of a participle to become descriptive of people who are coming.
01:33:42: Not who just come once, but who are coming. They're always coming. They're always believing.
01:33:48: They're always seeing. They're always hearing. That's what
01:33:54: John is talking about. But is this no longer relevant? I mean, think about it. I guess everything about coming down from heaven, not do my own will, but live him who sent me, that doesn't have anything to do.
01:34:14: What happened to my, there we go. That doesn't have anything to do with salvation today.
01:34:23: I mean, seriously, I have come down from heaven, not do my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
01:34:28: This is the one who sent me that of all that he has given me, I lose nothing, where he's up on the last day. The entire purpose of the incarnation laid out here, but it was only about that time period.
01:34:39: What? How can that be? For this is the will of my father, that everyone who beholds the son and believes in him will have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
01:34:53: So everyone, not just at that point, but continuously, everyone who beholds the son and believes in him will have eternal life.
01:35:09: Here's those present participles I was talking about before. The one seeing, the one believing.
01:35:17: I think I confused those up in 37 when I first started, because I thought I was down in the 40s. The one seeing, the one believing in him, but they are the result of the action of the father in giving to the son.
01:35:36: So you're not getting this from the text. You're not getting this from John 6.
01:35:42: This is an external issue being forced down upon the text. You're bringing in prevenient grace or whatever it is you're doing, and you end up turning everything on its head.
01:35:58: It ends up going upside down. So there is nothing in what was said there that would cause us in any way to look at verse 44.
01:36:10: No one is able to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.
01:36:17: Look at the phrase, on the last day.
01:36:24: Okay, does this have relevance today, or does it not?
01:36:31: Who's going to be raised up on the last day? Those who our choice meets, those who worshiped the father and therefore are given to the son?
01:36:43: Or is it as it says here, no one is able to come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.
01:36:52: The one that is drawn is the one that is raised up. That you cannot, there is absolutely no way to break that Elton apart from that Elton.
01:37:03: It's not possible, it's not possible. So is Jesus going to be raising up different groups?
01:37:11: Is there going to be some weird group that was given to him during his ministry that were the ones who had autonomously chosen to worship the father, and then there's something else that happens later on where it's no longer, and there's no discussion on Jesus' part of why he raises them up on the last day.
01:37:41: He's raising different groups up on the last. I don't get it because it's not flowing from the text.
01:37:48: I don't get it because it's not flowing from the text. So maybe there'll be something more when we get to the chapter on John chapter six.
01:38:04: He did say, I'll give you briefly my interpretation. Okay, fine, but it sounds to me like what we have here is a flowers response, and it's not going to get anywhere because you have to provide a way drawn from the text that will tell us what is talking about only those days and what would now be relevant today.
01:38:32: Because I mean, look what comes after this. Look, truly, truly, he who believes has eternal life.
01:38:39: I am the bread of life. Is that only back then? How do we know the difference?
01:38:50: Is this something we have to carry over to Matthew, Mark, and Luke? I don't know.
01:38:56: I don't know. It's hard to say. It's confusing, and it's hard to say.
01:39:05: But if I am the living bread that came down out of heaven, if anyone eats of this bread, so the thing that, is the present tense there relevant?
01:39:21: So in other words, if the present tense back in 637, and when
01:39:27: I first went back there, I was in error. I was looking at the wrong verse, and Mark, the present tense is a parsiple.
01:39:34: So if the present tense is 637, it means that there was, that this is only about that time period.
01:39:44: Does that mean the same thing here? Does the fact that we're using terms that talks about eating the flesh and Jesus giving his life, and is every present and every heiress supposed to have some type of, how do we figure this out?
01:40:18: Why has no one ever come up with this interpretation before? I mean, okay, I should be careful there.
01:40:23: Maybe somebody has. I've just never heard of it. I've just never heard of it. So he's the living bread.
01:40:31: That's present tense. Is he no longer the living bread? All of these things are relevant because we have fundamentally an attempt here to remove this text from being relevant to the subject of soteriology today, because what it says is so clear, it's so clear.
01:41:02: This concerns me. I'll be honest with you. It concerns me when you have someone willing to say this is no longer relevant, when these are key texts that Christians down through the centuries have gone.
01:41:20: I mean, think of how many people have the one coming to me,
01:41:25: I will never cast out. The one coming to me, I will never cast out. You all look in someone's eyes and tell them, that's not a promise for you, because if you're going to do, well, that's right then, and it's going to change later on, and that was a promise at that time.
01:41:46: The one coming to me, I will never cast out. Or what you're saying is, well, the one who will eventually come to him will never be cast out.
01:41:56: Most Arminians don't really hold that kind of perspective. I don't know how any of that's going to work. I don't know how any of that's going to work.
01:42:05: So stuff to think about, and it's bigger than just simply the attempt to get around this one little thing.
01:42:12: And like I said, that was page, looking really, there it is.
01:42:22: That was just briefly quoted on page 85, and then there's going to be an entire chapter that will be dealing with that on starting page 153.
01:42:34: So maybe there will be more in -depth information. I don't know. I don't know.
01:42:40: But all I can tell you is it's similar to when hyper -dispensationalists try to say that everything in the
01:42:49: Gospels doesn't matter to us today. These are hyper -dispensationalists, not your friend down the street. But the, what are they called, like Acts 28 dispensationalists, or the people that say that all the
01:43:04: Gospels are not relevant to us. Where's the parameters to where you can determine what is and what isn't?
01:43:12: We're not told. We're not told. So there you go.
01:43:18: Anyway, all right. I will mark where we are here, somehow, with a chunk, an asterisk, or something that hopefully we'll save, and we will be able to pick it up from there next time around.
01:43:41: I hope that at least getting into some of these texts is somewhat useful, and that maybe, maybe, maybe in the future, oops, there it is, here, maybe in the future we'll have some clarification provided, something along those lines.
01:43:59: It only is useful when we can get into the text and start asking serious, axiological questions.
01:44:05: All right, I gotta figure out how to, the one thing
01:44:10: I need to figure out is if I'm, and I'm wondering, Rich, if this new, if we can get the thing we didn't do before the program started, we can get it installed on this, if I'll actually be able to choose the verse references over there, because that's what totally, because that's what totally throws me off, is once I go over there,
01:44:36: I can't change the verse references, and over here, the little box is this big.
01:44:44: I mean, it's teeny tiny, and you get lost in that process. So that would help me.
01:44:50: Let's hope it finds, if you never see it again, it's because we installed a program that destroyed it.
01:45:00: That's the only thing I'm really afraid of doing, is let's see if we can improve it. Don't break what's already working.
01:45:08: Yeah, but I can't really, I've got to, don't touch it, you'll break it.
01:45:14: I'm a little afraid of doing it, but, because once you install something, getting it uninstalled, it's a little bit scary.
01:45:21: Anyways, the world may have fallen apart while we were doing the program today.
01:45:26: I'm not sure, I hope not. We'll find out when we get out of our little room in here, because it is fairly soundproof.
01:45:35: I mean, you never know what could happen out there. But Lord willing, I think today is
01:45:41: Tuesday, all day. So I think we're probably pretty much, well,
01:45:51: I have to pick up the wife from the airport at some point on Thursday, so we're going to have to be flexible. She can wait.
01:45:59: I hope no one sends that clip to my wife. She can wait. And she's not exactly sure which flight she's taking, so we will see.
01:46:08: We may have to push it up in the morning. We'll just see how things like that work. I do try to pick up my wife in a timely fashion from the airport when she flies in.
01:46:19: She's willing to still put up with all that stuff. I'm not, so.
01:46:25: Anyway, was there, you had a look on your face? Nope, okay. All right, we'll see you next time on The Dividing Line, and hopefully we'll still have this stuff working, and maybe working better next time, so we don't get confused as to where we are.