Mormonism's Capitulation, Open Phones with Great Calls

And greetings, welcome to The Dividing Line. We're going to have open phones today. But before we go to the phones, well, is that really phones?

They're open zoom calls. And Rich has posted stuff as to.

I'm not sure if it's in the app or not is in the app. OK. As to how to do the zoom calls, we have four folks already in line.

I think that's max we can have or I don't know. Oh, you can said we can do a lot more.

OK, we have four folks in line anyways. But before I do that, we need to briefly recognize the

I guess this past summer, right after Dobbs, the.

Jerry Nadler and the Democrats in the House pushed through a what they, as all leftists always do, misnamed the

Respect for Marriage Act, which, of course, is the exact opposite of that. It's the profanation of marriage.

It's the disrespect of Marriage Act. It is the utter destruction of Marriage Act. But you can always tell a leftist they will twist words, change meanings and say the exact opposite of the reality.

Evidently, because their followers are so dull, they'll believe them. But anyway, the

Respect for Marriage Act has now appeared in the Senate. And there is a fair amount of speculation.

In fact, my understanding is being voted on today that there will be sufficient Republicans in the

Senate to pass it. Who will will go for this? And of course, we already know three or four quote unquote

Republican senators who are not Republicans at all. They're Democrats caucusing with the

Republicans. So there's a there's a very good chance that the government will vote into law the utter profaning of marriage.

Now, obviously, this Respect for Marriage Act includes language meant to protect religious liberty.

Remember, the Respect for Marriage Act is the formally gets rid of DOMA, the

Defense of Marriage Act, which was a bipartisan, I think it was 96 to four when it was passed in the 90s, late 90s under Clinton.

Defense of Marriage. So 20 years later, all of those protections that were a part of that can just simply be repealed.

The the idea that, well, you know, it contains protections for religious liberty. That's the kind of thing that is impressive to people who don't know anything about history.

And don't know, don't recognize that how leftism worked.

In Eastern Europe, how it's worked across the world over the past 100 years.

They use language that there is nothing in their worldview. To found any hope.

That they will be truthful and remain truthful and keep their promises or keep their word or anything like that.

There's nothing their worldview. It's only people on the other side that there is still something left in some of their worldview.

Anyway, that would, you know, like right now we're hearing today people on the right going, well, it's time to start ballot harvesting because obviously it works.

And obviously it does as long, you know, since we've abandoned voting. And now have simply gone to ballots, then you got to harvest as many ballots as you can, whether that represents a citizen who is even cognizant of what's going on around them doesn't matter.

I mean, you voted Fetterman in and he doesn't know what's going on. Biden doesn't know what's going on. So there you go.

But it's a completely different concept. And it also results in completely different elections. Because it's no longer a matter of disputation about what's best for the country, things like that.

It's just simply who has the better game plan of getting as many ballots signed by somebody and turned back in.

It's immoral. But the right has realized, well, all we got to do because we're just going to keep losing over and over and over again if we don't start doing what the other side's been doing all along, which is what they've been doing all along, but that doesn't change anything.

Anyway, so. What's the reason

I mentioned this aside from. Just the amazing reality of what we're facing in our in our culture, and it makes perfect sense that our culture is expressing each and every day in every possible way, its detestation of what it knows to be

God's way. What it knows to be God's law. There is just it is just simply a withdrawal of the hand of restraint.

And the result is fully understandable from a theological perspective. When man is given free reign to be what he really is in himself.

He will turn against everything that is good that God has given to him.

You know, I've said before, I think that's the essence of what eternal punishment is. God doesn't have to have angels running around with pitchforks.

Just allow God haters. To give full and complete expression to their hatred of God.

And when they're alone and there's nothing left for them to hurt. They're the only thing left that represents the image of God.

And so it's a self -torture, in essence, in that context.

So anyway, what's amazing is aside from that, and that we need to pray.

I suppose we can pray that there will not be 10 Republicans that will go with this.

But if there are, then we should be the people who, as a smaller and smaller minority, give testimony to this society as to why the judgment that is all around us already and is only going to get worse, why it's coming.

The society needs to know, why did we fall apart? Well, let us tell you. It was a process.

It was a fairly fast process as far as world history is concerned. But, you know, it took a number of decades and it started here.

And then it snowballed and we rejected God's ways.

And that's why we can't pray for his blessing. Our forefathers did. They prayed for God's blessing.

How can we pray for God's blessing upon a nation doing the things this nation is doing? But, okay, so you've got that.

Last night, I get sent an article with a link to the official, the newsroom of the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, the Mormons in Salt Lake City. And most of you know that this ministry began.

I mean, our first primary focus was on Mormonism, 1983.

And our first tracks on the subject and all of our missions, trips, and everything.

We're focused on Mormonism. And years and years of driving up I -17 to Flagstaff and 89 up through Page.

And all that fun stuff, getting up to Salt Lake City. And then the return trips where you're now exhausted.

And I don't know how many times, you know, some angel undoubtedly took over the wheel just to keep us from, you know, keep us from dying.

Anyway, Mormonism has been a major element of what we have focused upon.

And so, the changes in Mormonism that we have observed, because my first conversation with more of missionaries was in 1982.

I had actually talked with some Mormons in 1980, but I had no idea what was going on.

So I read some books after that, not necessarily the best books. But the first full -length

Mormon missionary conversation, which eventually led to Alpha Omega Ministries, was

July of 82. And I realized most of the people in the audience were not alive in July of 1982.

What? Oh, yeah. Yeah, over 40 years ago. Mormonism has changed amazingly in 40 years.

And most Mormons, older Mormons, Mormons my age, know that.

And they struggle with it. You know, the young missionaries don't know that. But men my age, women my age, they know.

They can remember the confidence that Mormonism had in proclaiming itself to be the one true church.

The moral and ethical collapse in the stances of the

LDS Church going on in Utah are just astonishing.

What's going on at BYU? And the collapse on LGBTQ issues.

That's what is amazing. Because I was there when the first protests outside General Conference took place.

And the gay Mormons showed up. That was in the 90s.

And it's like they've become goo. There never really was a backbone.

There's always been a strong subjective element. But at least back in the 80s, you know, you always had the, well,

I believe it's true because I have a testimony thing. But they would argue about historical stuff. There wasn't any seer stone, blah, blah, blah.

Well, now we have the seer stone. And, you know, all that stuff you're talking about.

It's all anti -Mormon stuff that's been made up. Well, now all of it's been documented. And the church would miss it.

And so back then, there was still a desire to try to say that there was a real historical foundation, for example, to the

Book of Mormon. But there's a lot of Mormons now today that are adopting all this spiritualization and all this stuff to try to say, well, no, not really.

And, you know, they just become really, really squishy.

And that's reflecting what's happening in Salt Lake City. So I read this last night.

This was released on November 15th. So yesterday. The doctrine of the

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints related to marriage between a man and a woman is well known and will remain unchanged.

We are grateful for the continuing efforts of those who work to ensure the Respect for Marriage Act includes appropriate religious freedom protections while respecting the law and preserving the rights of our

LGBTQ brothers and sisters. We believe this approach is the way forward as we work together to preserve the principles and practices of religious freedom together with the rights of LGBTQ individuals.

Much can be accomplished to heal relationships and foster greater understanding. Remember, this is an act that will fundamentally destroy the very definition of marriage.

Now, some people have said all this. Come on, this is easy. This act will open the door, inevitably, just as Obergefell did, to polygamy.

And so that's what they want. They want polygamy back. No, they do not. No, they do not.

I think Salt Lake City is terrified of the idea of polygamy.

I think they're terrified of it. This is just simply a bunch of old men who have no worldview because there is no meaningful...

The only objective elements of LDS worldview was what it took from the

Bible and from Christianity. And the LDS scriptures, Book of Mormon, again, it's just someone trying to make something sound like the

Bible. Joseph Smith had no concept of worldview. And since the

Mormon doctrine of God is simply incoherent, it is a form of polytheism that is incoherent.

It does not produce a coherent worldview. And so now as Mormonism has become a world religion, and it's now facing the secularized world, it's come apart at the seams.

So let me just... I said this on Twitter yesterday, or last night, and I say it to my

Mormon friends now. It has always been time, but now more than ever, for you to realize you have a leader lister.

They are cowards when it comes to fundamental realities of male and female.

You have a gendered God, for crying out loud. God's a physical male.

He has sex parts. He creates babies. I mean, you know this.

So they're LGBTQ plus brothers and sisters?

What? They've totally given in to the entire rebellion.

It just said, okay, fine, whatever. And then they have shown themselves to be utterly lacking in discernment.

They really think that these religious rights protections mean anything when leftists are in charge?

What? I mean, the naivete is astonishing. So I say to my

Mormon friends, you need to realize you've been deceived.

And it may have been a lifelong deception, but you're seeing it now. Don't do what many of your fellow

Mormons have been doing. Many. And you know this, if you're honest to yourself. You know how many names have disappeared.

The people who used to be there, they're not there anymore. They're not LDS anymore. Don't do what they've done, where you just throw out faith in God, faith in divine revelation, just because you've been given a counterfeit.

There is truth in the historicity of the Christian faith. Just because Joseph Smith made up the entire

Book of Mormon and everything that went with it, there was no Zulf the Lamanite, okay?

Recognize and put all that stuff off. Look to real

Christianity that takes the Bible seriously. You know, the people that are standing against this stuff, the people that are saying, no, we cannot go there.

We will suffer what it takes, but we cannot and will not go there. Because God has made man in his image, male and female.

That doesn't mean God has a physical body. That's where you got lost. That's where you, we are his creatures and he has defined us by his sovereign power.

And no acts of Congress or Jerry Nadler can change what

God has done. And Jerry Nadler is going to discover that sooner or later. And he's going to have a lot to answer for.

But I just say to my Mormon friends, you know that what I'm saying is true. You know, you've seen the changes.

You've seen the changes. What are you going to do about it? What's going to happen?

Okay, so we have callers to get to.

Sorry that you all had to listen to, well, I'm not sorry you had to listen to that. But I think it's important.

We need to discuss it. So let's get to our phone callers.

I guess I need to use this thing. I can't just mind read. I was going to make a comment there, but I'm not going to.

Let's start with Josh and Josh has a question on the subject of reformed theology.

So let's talk to Josh. Hi, Josh. We lost Josh. Well, I actually, interestingly enough, heard

Josh's question while you were, that was the first one up, and he was going, he was basically going to ask what defines reformed theology, what makes someone reformed.

And I will just briefly comment that that is an area of tremendous conflict and disagreement.

There are people who would say that I am not reformed because I am a Credo Baptist, not a

Pato Baptist, and so they would say that Pato Baptism is absolutely definitional of what it means to be reformed.

So R. Scott Clark would be one of those people. And then there's the new hyper -confessionalists, who you have to basically spend every waking hour reading every scrap of anything ever written by any framer of whatever confession of faith you use, whether it be the

Westminster or Savoy or whatever, or Linden Baptist Confession, and they'll define, they're the

TRs, the truly reformed folks, where you have to cross every

T and dot every I just like they say, or you're not really reformed. Over the years,

I have emphasized one thing of what actually makes

Reformed Theology, and it is based in the recognition that God is

God and we are his creatures, and that God has the perfect and sovereign right to do with his creatures as he pleases.

He has a sovereign decree and we don't get to change it. And that sovereignty of God is then expressed in the election of a specific people.

They are not chosen because God looks down the corridors of time and goes, they're going to choose me, so I will choose them.

They are the absolutely undeserving recipients of divine grace.

And hence, salvation is of Yahweh. Salvation is of Yahweh.

It is not just made available by him, but it's actually accomplished by him.

And so, I have tremendous fellowship, a depth of fellowship and unity with all those who recognize the sovereignty of God in salvation, the perfection of the work of Christ, the fact that nothing can be added to what

Christ has done, and the freedom of God, his righteousness in getting to choose whoever he wills to choose to receive his grace, and that he is absolutely free in that matter, and that mankind is in no place to judge him, to say, why has he done...

If you can read Daniel 4, you can read Nebuchadnezzar's prayer. If you can do that, and you can hear and understand, then that, to me, is what being reformed is.

Because today, there are entire denominations that call themselves reformed, that don't believe any of that stuff anymore.

The vast majority of people in the PCUSA may claim the

Westminster Confession as their confession, but they don't believe what it says.

And so, I think that the most functional, useful, fellowshipable definition of the term would be focused upon our recognition of who

God is. That sovereignty and freedom in that great saving act of the gospel itself.

And so, that's what I would have said, but we lost Josh. So, I thought

Michael was the next person up. Okay, let's do

Michael. Hey, Dr. James White.

How you doing? Doing good. How are you? Good. So, I'll kind of just describe the context that I'm in and then ask the question.

So, I'm interning at my church, and I'm 20 years old, and I have a bunch of friends who love

Jesus and want to follow Jesus. And so, basically, I'm discipling them, and we have a young men's

Bible study that they love to go to, and they love to, like, fellowship, it seems like, in every other context than the local church.

And so, we're going through the book of Acts right now. And so, I really want them to see the importance of the local church.

But is there any other, like, recommendations that you would give me to give them as kind of like a gentle nudge to really be faithful to a local church?

Well, you know, I'll have to admit, I struggle when someone says, well, these individuals love

Jesus, but they don't love his church. And it's like, that means there's a fundamental element of Jesus's teaching and purpose that they're missing, and they're probably, they've probably been introduced to the, well,

I was driving back from Tucson recently. I think I was, yeah,

I don't know why I was down there. I guess maybe I was pulling the RV. I don't remember. Anyways, I saw one of those big billboards.

It was some long lines of, Jesus believes in you, or something, some amazing statement like that.

And there's just a lot of people that have been introduced to Jesus as something you add to your self -help methodology, and he'll help get your teeth cleaner and straighter and make you an inch taller and stuff like that.

And as a result, it's not, you know, biblically, we bow the knee to Christ as Lord and Savior.

Yeah. And that's something that people in our day struggle with because you don't bow the knee to anybody.

I'm autonomous. I have ultimate authority and things like that. And so when you recognize that it's

God's purpose in Christ to form the body of Christ and he has given elders and deacons and he's, for example, how do you obey

Christ? Christ says, if you love me, keep my commandments. Well, what's two of the things he's commanded us to do?

To be baptized and to partake the Lord's Supper. And when you look at the Lord's Supper, it's done in the context of the local church.

It is the body together, proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes.

You can't do that unless you are in the local church. And so you're not obeying

Christ. You're not walking with Christ if you are rejecting what

Christ says in his word. And so I suppose, you know, if you are dealing with folks like that, there's going to come, there comes a point where the demands of discipleship become fully understood.

And that's when you find out if there's been a real change of heart or whether you're dealing with someone who's just going along with something that's really cool right now.

And if it becomes uncool, then we won't worry about that later on either. Yeah, well,

I'd say, I would say that like they're very, well, we're all very young in our faith.

So like this is kind of that period of transition from not being bound to any local church, having been just converted outside the context of the local church.

And so I think this discipleship in the Bible studies that we're having is kind of like that.

Well, help me understand this discipleship outside of the church.

So I mean, so are these young men baptized? Yes, a few of them are.

By whom? In what context? So I'm an intern at my church and the pastors know these young men.

So they had been basically kind of in and out of the church, like they would come for a couple weeks and then they would not come and then, you know, it's kind of hard to really describe the situation.

But not all of them are baptized. But yeah. Yeah, and hence have never partaken of the

Lord's Supper. Yeah, right. So, you know, you walk through Jesus' words in the night of his betrayal.

You can do 1 Corinthians 11. You can do Matthew, whatever. And he says, take, eat, all of you.

Yeah. Well, okay, they can't. And why not? And then you, you know, when they ask, well, yeah, but why do you have to be a member of a local church?

Well, the scripture talks about purity in the fellowship. It talks about putting people out of the fellowship.

You can't discipline people if you don't know who the sheep are. You can't have a shepherd and a flock where, you know, it's sort of like right now.

We can't have a nation if we don't have borders because you can't define anything. And in the same way, you can't have a flock if the shepherds don't know who the sheep are.

And so I get the, we don't want to offend anybody attitude that a lot of churches have.

But the reality is discipleship, you know, I'd go to Mark and, you know,

Jesus called the crowds unto himself and he said, if you would be my disciples, you must deny yourselves, take up the cross and follow me.

Yeah, and that's where you're going to get a lot of people walking away. And it's similar to John 8,

Jesus said to those who had believed in him. That's Aris tense, not present ongoing. If you continue in my word, then you're my disciples.

You know the truth. Truth shall set you free. And they become offended at the idea that they needed to be set free.

And so once the claims of Christ are pressed, you'll find out who really loves

Jesus or who really loves the coolness of saying you love

Jesus and you and a person in the church cannot be hamstrung by a fear of offense at that point because Jesus's words cannot be stretched to make to mean anything else.

They are straightforward. If you're going to follow me, you need to take up your cross, die to yourself, and follow me.

And that means baptism and the Lord's Supper and the whole nine yards.

So there you go. Okay, that helps a lot. Thank you so much.

Okay. Thanks for calling it, man. Have a good day. All righty. So next one is, we've only got these many so we can let folks know that they can still call in.

Oh. Oh, okay. I see one other though. Okay. All right. All right. I just I all right. Okay. Nevermind. All right.

Let's talk to John. Hi, John. How are you?

Pretty good. You sound like your max headroom right now, but we'll hopefully we can figure out what you're saying.

Yeah, but it's really bad. Are you on a dial -up modem or something?

Keep keep trying. Let me try it. Is this better? A little bit better.

A little I can see what's happening. If someone's on their phone, you know, you're like holding up trying to get an extra cell one more one more bar, please something.

I am on my phone. So that might that might be why. Okay. Could you try? Could you try putting one arm up in the air and then pirouetting this direction and do you have any aluminum foil anything like that?

I might good, but I'm in my car. So well, we don't want to do that. Yeah, wherever you are right now, wherever you are right now, stop in the middle of the road.

It's working. You've got a good cell. So well, now all of a sudden you hear crashes.

Oh, well, sorry. Okay, go for it. Go for it.

While we can hear you. Okay. First of all, I'm a huge fan when when the father brought me to an understanding of the doctrines of grace really helped sharpen my understanding.

So I really appreciate that. Yes, sir. And so I've read two of your books already forgot

Trinity and Potter's Freedom. I got a whole bunch of stuff in my Amazon card if I could just find the money to buy it.

But but anyway, huge fan of yours quick question within the context of Matthew 24 36 the day that Christ is talking about is he talking about his second coming as it's usually understood or is he talking about like the day of the destruction of Jerusalem?

Well, that's really good. Yeah, go ahead. No, because I was just saying if Matthew 24 is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, you know after coming

I've also come to a postmillennial eschatology thanks to Dr. Bonson and guys like you and he helped me understand

Matthew 24, but it just seems to me, you know, it sounds like he could be talking about the day of the destruction of the temple.

Yeah, you know is what it sounds like to me because if we want to be consistent with Scripture, you know, sola scriptura tota scriptura, you know, it just sounds like to me that that's a possibility.

I'm not denying the second coming of Christ. Right. I'm just saying that within that particular context, you know, it could be something else rather than Perusia.

Right. Additionally, no, and I was just wanting to get your opinions on that.

Okay, see what you thought. Yeah, and if I break up on your phone and stuff like that, obviously this is being recorded you go back and get all of it and and hopefully it'll make sense there.

That's a huge question and very often that sort of skipped over because in the various discussions of exactly how to understand where we are in what

Jesus is addressing in Matthew chapter 24. There are questions about okay, when does the focus shift because verse 34 says truly

I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away.

My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour, no one knows. So you would you would expect you can certainly make the argument that there's really nothing in the context in just those few words that would shift the focus from what has come before which clearly is about the destruction of Jerusalem from verse 36, but someone could argue that verse 35 heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away might open the door to looking at something bigger farther on down the road when it's talking about heaven and earth and so on so forth and my words will not pass away and you know, a lot of people try to connect that text to all sorts of things don't have anything to do with Matthew chapter 24, but it is pretty hard to avoid the textual flow that would say that we're talking, you know, for the coming of the

Son of man will be just like days of Noah, eating, drinking, you know, two men in the field won't be taken, won't be left.

These are it. Those are pictures of judgment. Now that there's there's judgment at the end of time, but there was also judgment in the destruction of Jerusalem, right?

So there's times sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. Yeah. No, go ahead. No, there's times in a in Revelation when he's addressing the

Church of Thyatira and all that when he said he's going to come in judgment for people who don't repent right and things like that and Christ has said to come and visit his people, but it's not a second coming.

It's a coming in judgment of discipline, right? Yeah, that that's what I was thinking too, you know, is that it sounds like he could be coming and like when it says that that word generation in the

Greek and in verse 34, I think it is it has to do with generation that's currently living usually within a span of 30 years or something, right?

Usually what that word in the Greek means. So it's just like, you know, it just to me it would make more sense that he's talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, but then like you said somebody could argue about heaven and earth passing away too, but my words never pass away.

So it's kind of it's kind of difficult. Yeah, it's all judgment. And so the the judgment on Jerusalem is a central aspect of of New Testament Revelation that a lot of people miss.

A lot of people since they've been taught a certain eschatological understanding they put all of that in the future and they don't see that there was a necessity for judgment after the time of the

Messiah. I mean this had been prophesied and the language that is used in Revelation and in Matthew to describe this judgment is language that is plainly drawn from the prophets who were talking about judgment upon Israel, but that doesn't mean that's the only judgment that's ever going to take place.

That's where you fall off. The other side is okay. All that judgment took place in 8070 and there's nothing left left for there to be judged.

No there there is and I'm reminded of Paul's preaching at the

Areopagus when he says that the resurrection is evidence given to everyone that there will be a day of judgment and it will be a a just judgment because of the one that God has ordained will be doing the judging and that is the one he rose he raised from the dead.

So so finding that balance is is really the challenge and so yes 2436 could be talking about specifically that exact hour of when that's going to take place.

If you go there though, then you have to be ready to answer the question. Well, how does how can

Jesus describe what it's going to look like armies surrounding Jerusalem get out and and and flee don't don't go back to get your cloak, you know, the surrounding of the of the city.

I mean, that's pretty clear prophetic information. And so did he just have that level of prophetic information and not the whole thing?

Like what day Titus and the Roman Legions are going to show up or something like that that becomes one of the questions that has to be interacted with at that point.

And of course are you able in the Old Testament the prophets prophesied about specific certain events that were pretty detailed, but they didn't know what it was going to happen either.

I mean, yeah, it's possible lines up with that as well. Yeah. Yeah, that's possible. Yeah, but you know, that's why in the current controversies

I've been dealing with with people who have decided that the context of Matthew 24 isn't relevant and the flow of Matthew 24 isn't relevant, but the mind of God we somehow have access to that and we can figure out we can figure out stuff about the

Holy Spirit out of a passage like this even though the Holy Spirit is never mentioned. Yeah, Thomas Aquinas can help us with that.

The issue, you know, the problem that we're really looking at is it's a difficult text in the middle of a difficult text.

And I've just gotten into just a whole boatload of trouble by saying it's a difficult text and I don't think that it's proper for us to just simply, you know,

I was raised to interpret verse 34 in a particular fashion that I realize now was not appropriate.

It was not an accurate handling of the text, but it certainly made things easier.

And we have to be really, really careful when we use our theological systems to make things easier.

And this is one of those places where that's the case. So yeah, it could be, but I can see arguments going both directions and I don't want to pretend that that's not the case.

So I have to look at it in both perspectives. Got it.

Well, I appreciate your help and your insight. Thanks for all you do and for all apology and for all

Alpha Omega has done for me, man. You guys have really poured into my life. So I appreciate it, man.

Well, I really appreciate you letting us know that and we will continue to do the best we can. God bless you.

All right, you too, James. God bless Michael. Thank you. You know, before we go next caller, we're getting old.

We're getting old. Okay. Now you're old. I know you're older than me. Let's not even and you don't look, let's not go there.

Um, there's just been so many young men over the past couple of trips just had two guys at Apologia last service and they said the exact same things.

Yeah, you just don't know how much you've poured into my life, how much we've learned, you know, there's this there we found a voice out there that year after year after year and even when we go back in the archives, we go, we go,

I'll go, you know, we go back in the archives, we go back 20 years and yeah,

I mean, you have more Coogee sweaters now, but other than that, you know, the emphasis on consistency and exegesis, you know, it's been there all along and it's really truly impacted.

I get those phone calls during the week. You know, I just oftentimes I don't really know what to do with them because you just kind of go, you know, we're we do what we do because we do it unto the

Lord, right? And but I get those calls all the time and I appreciate it.

I do and probably don't tell you about them nearly as often as I should. Well, and of course, but I get to hear them face -to -face and you don't get to hear those.

No, I'm curious. Do they tell you the same thing at the end of the call or at the end of the conversation that they tell me about how you need to be nicer to me?

Yes, they do. Yeah, and then I explain to them why they've completely misunderstood the situation and they go, oh, okay.

Yeah, and okay. All right, and they still don't believe you, do they?

No, they do. No, they do. I have, you know, they can sense the honesty. My calls don't go that way.

I'm sure they don't. Okay. Now, I'm going to slaughter the pronunciation here, but let's try it.

Mwanza? Mwanza, let's talk to you. Hello.

That's close enough. Close enough, huh? What's that? What language is that coming from?

It is, well, greetings from Lusaka, Zambia. Okay. It is a member name. Yes. Okay.

Now, I've been to Lusaka once. Did we meet? No, no, we did not.

I was supposed to be there for a debate with the Muslim imam who pulled out at the last moment.

Yes. Yes. Yeah, that would have been the place to meet. Well, I have to tell you,

I have to tell everybody the story now since you called in or contacted us. Are you in Lusaka right now?

Yes. Okay, so when I was there, I gave a presentation at one of the local churches.

It wasn't the large Reformed Baptist Church downtown where I spoke one night, but I spoke at a smaller church farther out on the reliability of the scriptures, and it was culture shock because I have a number of, shall we say, humorous stories that I tell along the way to sort of keep people tuned in and, you know, following me because it can be sometimes a little bit complex stuff.

Nobody, nobody would react. No one would laugh at all at whatever

I said, except one guy in the front row, and he was from South Africa. So there seems to be a cultural idea that you don't, you don't laugh at what someone says, even if it's really obvious that they would feel perfectly fine if you did.

It was really, really, it was hard to adjust to that because as a speaker, you're trying to gauge your audience and whether you're really communicating with them, and it's hard to do that there.

It really is. So if you ever get a chance to speak elsewhere, you'll probably find that out in reverse, you know, if that ever happens.

So keep that in mind. But it was wonderful to get a chance to be there, even though it was a brief period of time, and I don't know that I'll ever get the chance again now, but it was good to be there.

So what can we help you with? Yes, well, the cage stage that I have referred to is this moment when a person discovers a new set of doctrines or rediscovers some doctrines and they begin to see it everywhere.

Three examples would be when people discover the Reformed theology or Calvinism or the law, the law of God and the relevance of the law of God and even eschatology, like they just begin to see it everywhere and I have seen it in myself as I'm engaging more of this material,

I'm beginning to see it everywhere. And so I just wanted to get your comments on this issue is how can we sort of like keep the reins on this outlook without everything turning into this particular doctrine where you just become the eschatology guy or the law guy or the

Reformed theology guy? How do we get this well -rounded approach?

Well, you know, one of the problems is when we are talking about part of the biblical revelation that is currently very much under attack from the world, we tend to look like and we can become imbalanced in the defense of, you know, we live in a world that emphasizes secularism, man's autonomy, man's wisdom power, and when we see what scripture says about man's dependence upon God's grace and his fallen nature and all those things, it can sound, there can be a sense which we sound like we're being imbalanced simply because we are constantly having to deal with people that are denying that or when the culture influences the church and the church starts backing off of certain aspects of biblical teaching because, well, that's offensive to the people in the culture, we want to be winsome, we want to want to see people coming in and hearing the message, things like that.

So, we always have to be aware that whatever battles we are in right now, that is going to impact what we're going to be emphasizing.

But I think you're touching on something that I've said over the years many times, a real mark of Christian maturity is the ability to recognize what is important in the current day without making it the central defining aspect of everything else.

And one of the things that has helped, one of the things the Lord has used in my life to help with that is, first of all,

I've always been a churchman, I've always been a part of the church, which means

I've always been teaching, and that means not just teaching certain subjects, but teaching through the scripture.

And when you have to teach through all of scripture, that automatically brings a balance.

You can't just pick the text you want to beat the drum on and say, see, here's my stuff, and so I'm going to do eschatology or I'm going to do the doctrines of grace.

You have to deal with the other aspects of Christian life that are a part of a balanced understanding of scripture.

So being in the church in that way, and then I never, thankfully, like I said at the top of the show, we started off dealing with the subject of Mormonism primarily.

Thankfully, very quickly, that expanded out to other areas, and one of the reasons

I'm thankful that it did is you tend to start seeing, if you're dealing with one particular subject or one particular group, you start seeing it everywhere, like you were saying, and it's like,

I'm not sure what you'd call it there in Zambia, but we call it tug of war.

It's where you've got, you know, you get five guys on one side of the rope and five guys on the other side of the rope, and you're trying to pull the other guys across a certain line or something like that.

When you're pulling, you're not balanced at that point.

If they let go, that's one of the tricks is everybody lets go and the other side falls over and then you grab it and run off of the rope.

If they let go, you're going to fall over. You're not standing in a balanced position, and if I'm constantly only pulling one direction against, say,

Mormonism, then the Jehovah's Witnesses are behind me, and I'm going to fall right into problems with them when

I try to witness to them because I'm no longer really balanced. And so, being aware of that danger and recognizing, okay,

I may have a real focus upon this, I may have a real passion for reaching these people, but at the same time, there are all sorts of other people, groups in the world, and there are important things to reach out to them, too, and there are people that the

Lord is gifted to work with them who wouldn't know anything about what I'm doing at all and wouldn't be able to engage in what

I'm doing at all. So, there's a balance to be had in all of those things. I think one of the greatest signs of Christian maturity is to know where those limits are and to be able to walk that central line and not fall off one direction or the other, even when the wind is blowing.

Because when the wind is blowing, you tend to be leaning over one direction against that wind, and then all of a sudden, the wind stops and whoa!

We start losing our balance. It is having that balance, and honestly, that's just something that you develop over time and you never fully get it.

I don't care how old you get to be, it will always be something that you have to keep in mind and be asking for and working toward.

Yeah, thanks. I found the tug -of -war analogy helpful because you're off balance because you are pulling against something.

And you may need to be pulling, and that's fine, but you need to realize,

I am pulling, and that doesn't mean that I will always be pulling. And that doesn't mean that everybody else around me is a part of this tug -of -war.

And so, if I'm going to minister well to the whole body, I have to keep that balance.

And that's not easily done, but it's something we need to work toward. Yeah. Well, thank you very much,

Dr. White. Alrighty, God bless you. Words of the other callers, you have been a great blessing to us over here.

Keep it going. Thank you. Thank you very much. God bless you. Thank you. Wow. Yes, sir.

Yes, I see that. I see that. We'll have to be brief, and looking at the topic,

I'm like, I'm not sure I can be, but we'll take a shot at it. Matthew. Let's talk with Matthew on the salvation of all

Israel. Hi, Dr. White. This is Matthew calling from the wonderful Big Tech State of Texas here in the

Dallas -Fort Worth area. All right. I go through there very often.

Fantastic. Well, I hope to see you at your next excursion. I'm a California refugee, just moved here recently, and I know it's a big question

I'm about to ask, so I figure I just show my appreciation for you. For the ministry that Alpha and Omega, both you and Rich, do there.

I used to have some direct interaction with some major leaders in the prosperity movement, but this channel has really, and the teaching has really helped me a lot, disseminate things where I came and rubbed up against a lot of opposing views, and I just thank you so much for the ministry.

So my question really relates to Christian Zionism, and specifically,

I tried to narrow it down to Romans 11, 25 through 27, where Paul talks about the salvation of all

Israel, and I would love to hear your perspective on, I've heard

Dr. Michael Brown's perspective on the salvation of all Israels being the future salvation of the nation, or whether it's a salvation of an inter -elect historical

Israel and Christ. I just love to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, it's a very, very good question, and I'm going to take the easy way out, and the easy way out is due to the fact that I think it may have been less than a month ago.

I don't, I think it was after I got back from my big long trip, so it was just a matter of weeks ago.

If not, it's been within the past two months. I preached what may be the last sermon in the series on baptism at Apology of Church.

Not sure about that, but anyway, my subject was Romans chapter 11, and we specifically dealt with the, all the understandings of what all

Israel would be, the possibility of that being all

Israel at a point in time in the future that is alive at that particular point in time, or all

Israel being Paul's, you know, Paul's utilization, Philippians, that we are the true Israel.

Went through the various options for that. It wasn't, it wasn't the central focus of the sermon because the central focus was the subject of baptism and the fact that between Credo Baptist and Pado Baptist, Romans 11 and the grafting in of the wild olive branches into the natural olive tree is a central aspect of, at least modern,

Pado Baptist apologetic. And so we were dealing with what is the olive tree and how is this relevant?

Is this even relevant in Paul's context, Romans chapter 11? And so, so I would direct you to that and for a even fuller discussion,

I, you know, given that we're pretty much out of time, I would direct you to, how would you search for it?

On sermonaudio .com, look for Sam Waldron, Romans 11.

Sam Waldron, Romans 11. That probably should pull it up. There was a conference only a few years ago and Dr.

Waldron did a, I don't know, 45 minute, 50 minute discussion of that specific text and those specific questions.

And so he had a little more time because he wasn't dealing with baptism. Well, he did sort of touch on baptism, but the difference between my sermon and his sermon, other than he's a lot smarter than I am, is my subject was baptism.

His subject was, what is all Israel supposed to mean? So he had more time to do that.

He touched on baptism and I spent more time on baptism, but I heard a keyboard in the background.

Did you pull it up? Yes, indeed. I did, and I appreciate that.

I will definitely pull that up and I won't listen to it live on air. Yeah, that would be helpful.

So yeah, if you grab that and then if you just go to the Apologia Church YouTube channel, you'll find my sermon on that, and hopefully between those two, that will give you a whole lot of help, hopefully.

I mean, do you have Opalma Robertson's book? The Christ of the

Covenants? Everybody refers to that as a standard work, and he's a

Presbyterian, so on the baptism issue, we might disagree, but as far as the historical background stuff and things like that, it's always good to have that work in your library if you can track it down.

Opalma Robertson, I think it's called Christ of the Covenants, and even if you end up disagreeing, you have to think through why, and almost everybody who's written since him is having to deal with him because the work was so insightful, though if I recall correctly,

I think Dr. Waldron says, and this is interesting because Dr. Waldron admits he's changed his view on what all

Israel means, and I think he says so did Opalma Robertson, so that gives you an idea of some of the complications and challenges of the text.

But yeah, if you get Robertson, Waldron, my sermon, you've got a lot of stuff to work with there.

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, and I didn't see any strange billboards out here about Jesus, but I just wanted to say that I believe that Jesus believes in you.

Well, I believe in him, and that's the important part. That's the truth. All right.

Thank you, sir. God bless you. All right. God bless. Thank you. All right, there we go.

And I need to remember not to delete the list so that I can it is it it's astonishing.

I guess I'm still on this camera. It's a it's astonishing. We get to the end of these programs.

We get we get to the end of these programs. I shouldn't say this on the air. But we will get to the end of the dividing line and we've

Well, thanks. And we and I start playing the blog together.

And I look through the window at Rich and I go, what did we talk about the start?

We just sit there and stare at each other going. No idea. It's a short -term memory that goes first kids.

Just just be prepared for that. Oh my.

Hey, I've got five grandkids. I mean, I I went when we're about to start it.

I I race. I do almost all my riding indoors now. Some people complain about that, but I'm sorry.

Safer part of it's just simply what's happening in Phoenix homelessness. They've taken over the underpasses.

I used to be able to ride through safely get out of the traffic and get places where I could ride. I can't do it anymore. So you put the two together and I'm riding inside a lot and there's something called

Swift. I write down to do races and stuff like that. And what

I'll do, you know, when you're although the groups in a pen before you get started, so you're just you're just pedaling your warming up, but you're not going anywhere and you can talk to each other.

And so one of the little things I've done is I've said now remember you are if you're if you are under 40 you are morally obligated to draft.

That means riding in front of so other people go faster to draft for any grandparents with more than four grandchildren.

And then I send that and then the next line I send is have you seen the picture of my fifth grandchild ransom?

So it's just a subtle way of saying guilting people, you know, if you outrun me in this race, you're out running grandpa with five grandkids.

What what are you doing? You know, where are your priorities? You should be helping me get to that finish line.

Anyways, it's it is a lot of fun. I was I was racing people from all the world just yesterday and did pretty well.

I was 11th out of 41 in my age group, you know, and those those are those are all people that do a lot of riding.

So, you know, wasn't wasn't too bad. Anyways, don't know why I told y 'all a story but but as you get older you just tell stories and it's it's fun.

And I think we like it because hey, I remembered something you go from there. Yeah, I'm not that old for my age.

So Rich and I were talking we're going to shoot for Friday. We'll see how everything works out.

We'll let you know that would be three programs this week. That's not too bad. That's not too bad. Next week's got

Thanksgiving in it. So that sort of messes things up, but we look forward to seeing you again next week.