Mormonism's Capitulation, Open Phones with Great Calls

And greetings, welcome to the dividing line. We're going to have open phones today. But before we go to the phones, well, is that really phones? They're open zoom calls and riches posted stuff as to. I'm not sure if it's in the app or not.

Is it? Yeah. OK. As to how to do the zoom calls, we have four folks already in line. I think that's Max we can have or I don't know. Oh, you can said we can do a lot more. OK, we got four folks in line anyways.

The Respect for Marriage Act and the Collapse of Marriage

But before I do that, we need to briefly recognize the I guess this past summer, right after Dobbs, the. Jerry Nadler and the Democrats in the House pushed through a what they, as all leftists always do, misnamed the Respect for Marriage Act, which, of course, is the exact opposite of that.

It's the profanation of marriage. It's the disrespect of Marriage Act. It is the utter destruction of Marriage Act. But you can always tell a leftist they will twist words, change meanings and say the exact opposite of the reality.

Evidently, because their followers are so dull, they'll believe them. But anyway, the Respect for Marriage Act has now appeared in the Senate. And there is a fair amount of speculation. In fact, my understanding is being voted on today that there will be sufficient Republicans in the Senate to pass it.

Who will will go for this? And of course, we already know three or four quote unquote Republican senators who are not Republicans at all. They're Democrats caucusing with the Republicans. So there's a there's a very good chance that the government.

Will vote into law the utter profaning of marriage. Now, obviously, this Respect for Marriage Act includes language meant to protect religious liberty. Remember, the Respect for Marriage Act is the formally gets rid of DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act, which was a bipartisan, I think it was 96 to four when it was passed in the 90s, late 90s under Clinton.

Defense of marriage. So 20 years later, all of those protections that were a part of that can just simply be repealed. The idea that, well, you know, it contains protections for religious liberty. That's the kind of thing that is impressive to people who don't know anything about history.

And don't know, don't recognize that how leftism worked. In Eastern Europe, how it's worked across the world over the past 100 years. They use language that there is nothing in their worldview. To found any hope.

That they will be truthful and remain truthful and keep their promises or keep their word or anything like that. There's nothing in their worldview. It's only people on the other side that there is still something left in some of their worldview.

Anyway, that would, you know, like right now we're hearing today people on the right going, well, it's time to start ballot harvesting. Because obviously it works. And obviously it does. As long, you know, since we've abandoned voting.

And now have simply gone to ballots, then you got to harvest as many ballots as you can, whether that represents a citizen who is even cognizant of what's going on around them doesn't matter. I mean, you voted Fetterman in and he doesn't know what's going on.

Biden doesn't know what's going on. So there you go. But it's a completely different concept. And it also results in completely different elections. Because it's no longer a matter of disputation about what's best for the country, things like that.

It's just simply who has the better game plan of getting as many ballots signed by somebody and turned back in. It's immoral. But the right has realized, well, all we got to do because we're just going to keep losing over and over and over again if we don't start doing what the other side's been doing all along, which is what they've been doing all along, but that doesn't change anything.

Anyway, so. What's the reason I mentioned this aside from. Just the amazing reality of what we're facing in our in our culture, and it makes perfect sense that our culture is expressing each and every day in every possible way.

It's detestation of what it knows to be God's way. What it knows to be God's law. There is just it is just simply a withdrawal of the hand of restraint. And the result is fully understandable from a theological perspective when man is given free reign to be what he really is in himself.

He will he will turn against everything that is good that God has given to him. You know, I've said before, I think that's the essence of what eternal punishment is. God doesn't have to have angels running around with pitchforks.

Just allow God haters to give full and complete expression to their hatred of God. And when they're alone and there's nothing left for them to hurt. They're the only thing left that represents the image of God.

And so it's a it's a self-torture in essence, in that context. So anyway, what's amazing is aside from that, and that we need to, you know, pray. I suppose we can we can pray that there will not be ten Republicans that will go with this.

But if there are, then we should be the people who, as a smaller and smaller minority, give testimony to this society as to why the judgment that is all around us already and is only going to get worse, why it's coming.

The society needs to know, why did we fall apart? Well, let us tell you. It was it was a process. It was a fairly fast process as far as world history is concerned. But, you know, it took a number of decades and it started here and then it snowballed and we rejected God's ways.

And that's why we can't pray for his blessing. Our forefathers did. They prayed for God's blessing. How can we pray for God's blessing upon a nation doing the things this nation is doing? But, OK, so you've got that.

Last night, I get sent an article with a link to the official, the newsroom of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons in Salt Lake City. And most of you know that this ministry began.

I mean, our first primary focus was on Mormonism. Nineteen eighty three. And our first tracks on the subject and all of our missions, trips and everything were focused on. On Mormonism and years and years of driving up I -17 to Flagstaff and eighty nine up through Page and and all that fun stuff getting up to Salt Lake City and.

Then the return trips where you're now exhausted and I don't know how many times, you know, some angel undoubtedly took over the wheel just to keep us from, you know, keep us from dying. Anyway, Mormonism has been a major element of what we have focused upon.

And so the changes in Mormonism that we have observed, because I my first conversation with more missionaries was in nineteen eighty two. I had actually talked with some with some Mormons in nineteen eighty, but I had no idea what was going on.

So I read some books after that, not necessarily the best books. But but the first full length Mormon missionary conversation, which eventually led to Alphanumeric Ministries, was July of eighty two. And I realize most of the people in the audience are were not alive in July of nineteen eighty two.

What? Oh, yeah, yeah, over 40 years ago. Mormonism has changed amazingly in 40 years. And most Mormons, more, more older Mormons, Mormons, Mormons my age know that. And they struggle with it. You know, the young missionaries don't know that.

But men my age, women my age, they they know. They can remember the the the confidence that Mormonism had in proclaiming itself to be the one true church. The moral and ethical collapse. In the stances of the LDS church.

Going on in Utah. Are just astonishing. What's going on, BYU and the collapse on LGBTQ issues. That's what is amazing is that I was there when the first protests outside General Conference took place and the gay Mormons showed up.

That was that was in the 90s. And there there's it's like the it's like they've become goo. The there there never really was a backbone. There's always been a strong subjective element. But at least back in the 80s, you know, you always had the well, I believe it's true because I have a testimony thing, but they would argue about historical stuff.

They there wasn't any seer stone, blah, blah, blah. Well, now we have the seer stone. And and, you know, all that stuff you're talking about, it's all anti-Mormon stuff's been made up. Well, now all of it's been documented.

And the church admits it. And so back then, there was still a desire to try to say that there was a real historical foundation, for example, to the Book of Mormon. But there's a lot of Mormons now that are adopting all this spiritualization and all this stuff.

To try to say, well, no, not really. And, you know, we they just become really, really squishy. And that's reflecting what's happening in Salt Lake City. So I read this last night. This was released on November 15th.

So yesterday. The doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints related to marriage between a man and a woman is well-known and will remain unchanged. We are grateful for the continuing efforts of those who work to ensure the Respect for Marriage Act includes appropriate religious freedom protections while respecting the law and preserving the rights of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters.

We believe this approach is the way forward as we work together to preserve the principles and practices of religious freedom together with the rights of LGBTQ individuals. Much can be accomplished to heal relationships and foster greater understanding.

Remember, this is an act that will fundamentally destroy the very definition of marriage. Now, some people have said all this. Come on. This is easy. This act will open the door. Inevitably, just as Obergefell did to polygamy.

And so they that's what they want. They want polygamy back. No, they do not. No, they do not. I think Salt Lake City is terrified of the idea of polygamy. I think they're terrified of it. This is just simply a bunch of old men who have no worldview because there is no meaningful.

The only the only objective elements of LDS worldview was what it took from the Bible and from Christianity. And the LDS Scriptures, Book of Mormon, again, it's just someone trying to make something sound like the Bible.

Joseph Smith had no concept of worldview. And since the Mormon doctrine of God is simply incoherent. It is a form of polytheism that is incoherent. It does not produce a coherent worldview. And so now it's Mormonism has become a world religion and it's now facing the secularized world.

It's come apart at the seams. So let me just I said this on Twitter yesterday or last night and I and I say it. To my Mormon friends now. It has always been time but now more than ever for you to realize you have a leader Lister.

They they are are are cowards when it comes to fundamental realities of male and female. You have a gendered God for crying out loud. God's a physical male. He has sex parts. He creates babies. I mean, you know this so they're LGBTQ plus brothers and sisters.

What they've totally given in to the entire rebellion. It just just just said, okay, fine, whatever. And then they have shown themselves to be utterly lacking in discernment. They really think that these religious rights protections mean anything when leftists are in charge.

What? I mean the naivete is astonishing. So I say to my Mormon friends. You need to realize you've been deceived and it may have been a lifelong deception, but you're seeing it now. Don't just don't do what many of many of your fellow Mormons have been doing many and you know, this if you're honest to yourself.

You know, how many names have disappeared the people who used to be there. They're not there anymore. They're not LDS anymore. Don't do what they've done where you just throw out faith in God. Faith in Divine Revelation just because you've been given a counterfeit.

There is truth in the historicity of the Christian faith just because Joseph Smith made up the entire Book of Mormon and everything that went with it. There was no Zelph the Lamanite. Okay, recognize and put all that stuff off.

Look to real Christianity that takes the Bible seriously, you know, the people that are standing against this stuff. The people are saying no, we cannot go there. We will we will suffer what it takes but we cannot will not go there because God has made man in his image.

Male and female. It doesn't mean God has a physical body. That's where you got lost. That's where you we are his creatures and he is defined us by his sovereign power. And no acts of Congress or Jerry Nadler can change what God has done and Jerry Nadler is going to discover that sooner or later.

And he's going to have a lot to answer for. But I just say to my Mormon friends, you know that what I'm saying is true, you know, you've seen the changes. You've seen the changes. What are you going to do about it?

What's going to happen? Okay, so we have callers to get to. Sorry that you all had to listen to well, I'm not sorry you had to listen to that. But I think it's important we need to discuss it. So let's get to our phone callers.

I guess I need to use this thing. I can't just mind read. I'm just going to make a comment there, but I'm not going to let's start with Josh and Josh has a question on the subject of reformed theology.

So let's talk to to Josh. Hi Josh. We lost Josh. Well, I actually interestingly enough heard Josh's question while you were that was the first one up and he was going he was basically going to ask what defines reformed theology, what makes someone reformed and I will just briefly comment that that is an area of tremendous conflict and disagreement.

There are people who would say that I am not reformed because I am a credo Baptist, not a pedo Baptist. And so they would say that pedo baptism is absolutely definitional of what it means to be reformed.

So R. Scott Clark would be one of those people. And then there's then there's the new hyper confessionalists who you have to basically spend every waking hour reading every scrap of anything ever written by any framer of whatever confession of faith you use whether it be the Westminster Savoy or whatever or London Baptist Confession and they'll define it.

They're the TRs, the truly reformed folks where you have to cross every T and dot every I just like they say or you're not really reformed. Over the years, I have emphasized one thing of what actually makes reformed theology and it is based in the recognition that God is God and we are his creatures and that God has the perfect and sovereign right to do with his creatures as he pleases.

He has a sovereign decree and we don't get to change it. And that sovereignty of God is then expressed in the election of a specific people. They are not chosen because God looks down the corridors of time and goes they're going to choose me so I will choose them.

They are the absolutely undeserving recipients of divine grace and hence salvation is of Yahweh. Salvation is of Yahweh. It is not just made available by him, but it's actually accomplished by him. And so I have tremendous fellowship, a depth of fellowship and unity with all those who recognize the sovereignty of God and salvation, the perfection of the work of Christ, the fact that nothing can be added to what Christ has done and the freedom of God, his righteousness in getting to choose whoever he wills to choose, to receive his grace and that he is absolutely free in that matter and that mankind is in no place to judge him, to say why has he done, you know, if you can read Daniel 4, you can read Nebuchadnezzar's prayer, if you can do that and you can hear and understand, then that to me is what being reformed is because today there are entire denominations that call themselves reformed.

They don't believe any of that stuff anymore. The vast majority of people in the PCUSA may claim the Westminster Confession as their confession, but they don't believe what it says. And so I have, I think that the most functional, useful, fellowshipable definition of the term would be focused upon our recognition of who God is, that sovereignty and freedom in that great saving act of the gospel itself.

And so that's what I would have said, but we lost Josh. So I thought Michael was the next person up. Okay, let's let's do Michael.

The Local Church, Baptism, and Obedient Discipleship

Hey, Dr. James White, how you doing? Doing good. How are you? Good. So I'll kind of just describe the context that I'm in and then ask the question. So I'm interning at my church and I'm 20 years old and I have a bunch of friends who love Jesus and want to follow Jesus.

And so basically I'm discipling them and we have a young men's Bible study that they love to go to and they love to like fellowship, it seems like in every other context than the local church. And so we're going through the book of Acts right now.

And so I really want them to see the importance of the local church, but is there any other like recommendations that you would give me to give them as kind of like a gentle nudge to really be faithful to.

A local church? Well, you know, I'll have to admit I struggle when someone says, well, these individuals love Jesus, but they don't love his church. And it's like that means there's a fundamental element of Jesus's teaching and purpose that they're missing.

And they're probably, they've probably been introduced to the, I was driving back from Tucson recently. I think I was, yeah, I was, I don't know why I was down there. I guess maybe I was pulling the RV.

I don't remember. Anyways, I saw I saw a one of those big billboards. It was some long lines of Jesus believes in you or something, some amazing statement like that. And there's just a lot of people that have been introduced to Jesus as something you add to your self-help methodology, and he'll help get your teeth cleaner and straighter and make you an inch taller and stuff like that.

And as a result, it's not, biblically, we bow the knee to Christ as Lord and Savior. Yeah, and that's something that people in our day struggle with because you don't bow the knee to anybody. I'm autonomous.

I have ultimate authority and things like that. And so when you when you recognize that it's it's God's purpose in Christ to form the body of Christ and he has given elders and deacons and he he's for example, how do you obey Christ?

Christ says, if you love me, keep my commandments. Well, what's two of the things he's commanded us to do? To be baptized and to partake the Lord's Supper. And when you look at the Lord's Supper, it's done in the context of the local church.

It is a the body together proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes. You can't do that unless you are in the local church. And so you're not obeying Christ. You're not walking with Christ if you are rejecting what Christ says in his word.

And so I suppose, you know, if you are dealing with folks like that, there's going to come, there comes a point where the demands of discipleship become fully understood. And that's when you find out if there's been a real change of heart or whether you're dealing with someone who's just going along with something that's really cool right now and if it becomes uncool, then we won't worry about that later on either.

Yeah,.

You can say I would say that like they're very, well, we're all very young in our faith. So like this is kind of that period of transition from not being bound to any local church having been just converted outside the context of the local church.

And so I think this discipleship in the Bible studies that we're having is kind of like that.

Well, help me understand this discipleship outside of the church. So, I mean, so are these young men baptized? Yes, a few of them are.

By whom? In what context? So I'm an intern at my church and the pastors know these young men. So they had been basically kind of in and out of the church. Like they would come for a couple weeks and then they would not come and then you know, it's kind of a it's kind of hard to really describe the the situation but.

Not all of them are baptized. But yeah. Yeah, and hence have never partaken of the Lord's Supper. Yeah, right. So, you know, you walk through Jesus' words in the night of his betrayal. You can do 1 Corinthians 11, you can do Matthew, whatever.

And he says, take, eat, all of you. Yeah. Well, okay, they can't and why not? And then you, you know, when they ask, well, yeah, but why do you have to be a member of a local church? Well, the scripture talks about purity in the fellowship.

It talks about putting people out of the fellowship. You can't discipline people if you don't know who the sheep are. Yeah, you can't have a shepherd and a flock where, you know, it's sort of like right now.

We can't have a nation if we don't have borders because you can't define anything. And in the same way, you can't have a flock if the shepherds don't know who the sheep are. And so I get the we don't want to offend anybody attitude that a lot of churches have but the reality is discipleship, you know, I'd go to Mark and you know, Jesus called the crowds unto himself and he said, if you would be my disciples, you must deny yourselves, take up the cross and follow me.

Yeah, and that's where you're going to get a lot of people walking away and it's similar to John 8. Jesus said to those who had believed in him, that's aristence, not present ongoing. If you continue in my word, then you're my disciples.

You know the truth, truth shall set you free and they become offended at the idea that they needed to be set free. And so once once the claims of Christ are pressed, you'll find out who really loves Jesus or who really loves the coolness of saying you love Jesus and you and a person in the church cannot be hamstrung by a fear of offense at that point because Jesus's words cannot be stretched to make to mean anything else.

They are straightforward. If you're going to follow me, you need to take up your cross, die to yourself and follow me and that means baptism and the Lord's Supper and the whole nine yards. So there you go.

Okay, that that helps a lot. Thank you so much. Okay. Thanks for calling in, man. Have a good day. All righty. So next one is we've only got these many so we can let folks know that they can still call in.

Oh, oh, okay. I see one other though. Okay. All right. All right. I just I all right. Okay. Nevermind. All right. Let's talk to John. Hi, John. How are you? Pretty good. You sound like like your max headroom in it right now, but we'll hopefully we can figure out what you're saying.

Yeah, well, it's really bad. Are you on? Are you on a dial-up modem or something? Keep trying. Oh, let me try. Is this better? A little better. A little. I can see what's happening. If someone's on their phone, you know, you're like holding up trying to get an extra cell.

One more. One more bar, please. Something.

I am on my phone. So that might that might be why. Okay.

Could you try? Could you try putting one arm up in the air and then pirouetting this direction? And do you have any aluminum foil? Anything like that?

I might good, but I'm in my car.

So, oh, well, we don't want to do that. Yeah, wherever you are right now, wherever you are right now, stop in the middle of the road. It's working. You've got a good cell. So, well, now all of a sudden you hear crashes.

Oh, well, I'm sorry.

Okay, go for it. Go for it. While we can hear you. Okay. First of all, I'm a huge fan. When, when the father brought me to an underground hospital, understanding of the doctrines of grace really helped sharpen my understanding.

So I really appreciate that. Yes, sir. And so I've read two of your books already. Forgot Trinity and Father's Freedom. I got a whole bunch of stuff in my Amazon card, if I could just find the money to buy it.

But, but anyway, huge fan of yours. Quick question. Within the context of Matthew 24, 36, the day that Christ is talking about, is he talking about his second coming? As it's usually understood? Or is he talking about like the day of the destruction of Jerusalem?

Well, that's really good question. Yeah, go ahead. No, because I was just saying if Matthew 24 is talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, you know, after coming, I've also come to a post-millennial eschatology.

Thanks to Dr. Bonson and guys like you and he helped me understand Matthew 24, but it just seems to me, you know, it sounds like he could be talking about the day of the destruction of the temple. Yeah, you know, is what it sounds like to me because if we want to be consistent with scripture, you know, sola scriptura, tota scriptura, you know, it just sounds like to me that that's a possibility.

I'm not denying the second coming of Christ. Right. I'm just saying that within that particular context, you know, it could be something else rather than Perusia. Right. And I was just wanting to get your opinions on that.

Okay, see what you thought.

Yeah. And if I break up on your phone and stuff like that, obviously this is being recorded, you go back and get all of it and and hopefully it'll make sense there. That's a huge question. And very often that's sort of skipped over because in the various discussions of exactly how to understand where we are in what Jesus is addressing in Matthew chapter 24, there are questions about, okay, when does the focus shift because verse 34 says, truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Heaven and earth will pass away. My words will not pass away. But of that day and hour, no one knows. So, you would expect, you can certainly make the argument that there's really nothing in the context in just those few words that would shift the focus from what has come before, which clearly is about the destruction of Jerusalem from verse 36, but someone could argue that verse 35, heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away, might open the door to looking at something bigger farther on down the road when it's talking about heaven and earth and so on and so forth, and my words will not pass away.

And, you know, a lot of people try to connect that text to all sorts of things that don't have anything to do with Matthew chapter 24. But it is pretty hard to avoid the textual flow that would say that we're talking, you know, for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like days of Noah, eating, drinking, you know, two men to field won't be taken, won't be left.

These are, those are pictures of judgment. Now, there's judgment at the end of time, but there was also judgment in the destruction of Jerusalem.

Right, so there's times, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. Yeah, no, go ahead. No, there's times in Revelation when he's addressing the church of Thyatira and all that, when he said he's going to come in judgment for people who don't repent, and things like that, and Christ has said to come and visit his people, but it's not a second coming.

It's a coming in judgment of discipline. Right, right. And so that's what I was thinking too, you know, is that it sounds like he could be coming, and like when it says that, that word generation in the Greek, and in verse 34, I think it is, it has to do with the generation that's currently living, usually within a span of 30 years or something, usually what that word in the Greek means.

So it's just like, you know, it just, to me, it would make more sense that he's talking about the destruction of Jerusalem, but then like you said, somebody could argue about heaven and earth passing away too, but my words never pass away.

So it's kind of difficult.

Yeah, it's all judgment. And so the judgment on Jerusalem is a central aspect of New Testament Revelation that a lot of people miss. A lot of people, since they've been taught a certain eschatological understanding, they put all of that in the future, and they don't see that there was a necessity for judgment after the time of the Messiah.

I mean, this had been prophesied, and the language that is used in Revelation and in Matthew to describe this judgment is language that is plainly drawn from the prophets who were talking about judgment upon Israel.

But that doesn't mean that's the only judgment that's ever going to take place. That's where you fall off the other side is, okay, all that judgment took place in 8070, and there's nothing left for there to be judged.

No, there is, and I'm reminded of Paul's preaching at the Areopagus when he says that the resurrection is evidence given to everyone that there will be a day of judgment, and it will be a just judgment because of the one that God has ordained will be doing the judging, and that is the one he raised from the dead.

So, finding that balance is really the challenge. And so, yes, 2436 could be talking about specifically that exact hour of when that's going to take place. If you go there, though, then you have to be ready to answer the question, well, how can Jesus describe what it's going to look like?

Armies surrounding Jerusalem, get out and flee, don't go back to get your cloak, you know, the surrounding of the city. I mean, that's pretty clear prophetic information. So, did he just have that level of prophetic information and not the whole thing, like what day Titus and the Roman legions are going to show up or something like that?

That becomes one of the questions that has to be interacted with at that point.

And of course, in the Old Testament, the prophets prophesied about specific certain events that were pretty detailed, but they didn't know when it was going to happen either, so, I mean, it kind of lines up with that as well.

Yeah, yeah, that's possible. Yeah, but, you know, that's why in the current controversies I've been dealing with, with people who have decided that the context of Matthew 24 isn't relevant and the flow of Matthew 24 isn't relevant, but the mind of God, we somehow have access to that and we can figure out, we can figure out stuff about the Holy Spirit out of a passage like this, even though the Holy Spirit is never mentioned.

Yeah, Thomas Aquinas can help us with that. The issue, you know, the problem that we're really looking at is it's a difficult text in the middle of a difficult text, and I've just gotten into just a whole boatload of trouble by saying it's a difficult text, and I don't think that it's proper for us to just simply, you know, I was raised to interpret verse 34 in a particular fashion that I realize now was not appropriate.

It was not an accurate handling of the text, but it certainly made things easier, and we have to be really, really careful when we use our theological systems to make things easier, and this is one of those places where that's the case.

So, yeah, it could be, but I can see arguments going both directions, and I don't want to pretend that that's not the case. So, I have to look at it in both perspectives.

Got it. Well, I appreciate your help and your insight. Thanks for all you do, and for all Apologia, and for all Alpha Omega has done for me, man. You guys have really poured into my life, so I appreciate it, man.

Well, I really appreciate you letting us know that, and we will continue to do the best we can. God bless you. All right, you too, James. God bless, Michael. Thank you. You know, before we go to the next caller, we're getting old.

We're getting old. Okay. Now, you're old. I know you're older than me. Let's not even... and you don't look... Let's not go there. There's just been so many young men over the past couple of trips, just had two guys at Apologia last service, and they said the exact same things.

You just don't know how much you've poured into my life, how much we've learned. You know, there's this... we've found a voice out there that, year after year after year, and even when we go back in the archives, we go algo, you know, we go back in the archives, we go back 20 years, and yeah, I mean, you have more Coogee sweaters now, but other than that, you know, the emphasis on consistency and exegesis, you know, it's been there all along, and it's really, truly impacted.

I get those phone calls during the week.

You know, I just... oftentimes, I don't really know what to do with them, because you just kind of go, you know, or we do what we do because we do it unto the Lord. Right. But I get those calls all the time, and I appreciate it, I do, and probably don't tell you about them nearly as often as I should.

Well, and of course, but I get to hear them face to face, and you don't get to hear those.

No, I'm curious, do they tell you the same thing at the end of the call or at the end of the conversation that they tell me about how you need to be nicer to me?

Yes. They do, yeah. And then I explain to them why they've completely misunderstood the situation, and they go, oh, okay. Yeah.

Okay, all right. And they still don't believe you, do they? No, they do.

No, they do. I have, you know, they can sense the honesty. My calls don't go that way. I'm sure they don't. Okay. Now, I'm going to slaughter the pronunciation here, but let's try it. Mwanza? Mwanza, let's talk to you.

Hello. That's close enough. Close enough, huh?

What's that? What language is that coming from? It is, well, greetings from Lusaka, Zambia. Okay. It's a Zambian name.

Yes. Okay. Now, I've been to Lusaka once. Did we meet?

No. No, we did not. I was supposed to be there for a debate with the Muslim imam who pulled out at the last moment. Yes. Yes. I would, yeah, that would have been the place to meet.

Well, I have to tell you, I have to tell everybody the story now, since you called in or contacted us. Are you in Lusaka right now? Yes. Okay. So when I was there, I gave a presentation at one of the local churches.

It wasn't the large Reformed Baptist Church downtown where I spoke one night, but I spoke at a smaller church farther out on the reliability of the scriptures, and it was culture shock because I have a number of, shall we say, humorous stories that I tell along the way to sort of keep people tuned in and, you know, following me because it can be sometimes a little bit complex stuff.

Nobody, nobody would react. No one would laugh at all at whatever I said, except one guy in the front row, and he was from South Africa. So there seems to be a cultural idea that you don't, you don't laugh at what someone says, even if it's really obvious that they would feel perfectly fine if you did.