What are We Conserving? What are we Debating?

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:41

Well, greetings and welcome to The Dividing Line. Boy, everything looks different around here. Every time I leave, it's

00:46

Rich and my wife, both, basically try to wipe out any evidence of my existence while I'm gone.

00:52

It's really weird. I come back in here, everything's moved around, my mouse doesn't work,

00:59

I've got completely new cameras. Why does an ugly face like this need 4K?

01:06

I'm thinking 640x480. Stop that. Quit playing around with that. Get back to where you were.

01:12

Don't mess. No, no, none of that kind of stuff. In fact, you were tighter than that before.

01:18

But anyway, so Rich has stuff to play with now. But yeah, every time

01:23

I come back, everything's different and changed. The 2023

01:36

Reform Podcast Championship thing back there. So that's, I guess, good.

01:42

But hey, I'm sort of used to having control now. I don't have any buttons to push or nothing.

01:51

Is that mine right there? Uh -huh, okay.

01:58

So, what, are you going to put one in here? Oh, okay, so allegedly,

02:07

I'm being told that next week,

02:13

I have to do this on my own. So I have to somehow figure all this stuff out.

02:20

You might just want to tune in next week just for the laughs. If it even gets posted. Because it may not even get recorded.

02:32

It reminds me, for some reason, I was just thinking about years and years and years ago, when they first introduced wireless microphones.

02:41

We tried them at the church I was at. This big, huge Southern Mass Church. And the one time we tried them, all of a sudden, a local country music station popped in on the frequency.

02:57

And we didn't use them again. I'm sure they did eventually, but not while I was there.

03:04

Anyway, here we are, back in Phoenix. I'm not coughing my head off, thankfully.

03:10

I think I turned the corner last night. I would like to thank whoever in prior Oklahoma graciously granted to me the gift of respiratory infection.

03:22

But I'm hearing everybody these days either has this or the stomach thing.

03:29

But have you noticed? The regime hasn't said anything. We don't have any mask mandates.

03:37

And yet, I would imagine that the mortality rate is pretty much the same for the vast majority of the population as it was for COVID.

03:47

Anyways, that's not even... I can't even talk about stuff like that. Where are we live streaming? Yeah, I can't talk about that on Facebook.

03:55

No, I can't. No, I can't. You know that. You're well aware of the fact.

04:01

I can't. Time to go? No, no. No. Until we have

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Twitter, and then who knows how long Twitter's gonna last. Look, eventually it's only gonna be

04:14

Odyssey. We all know what's coming. In fact, I posted a video from that Robinson fellow in England.

04:25

Talking about all the friends of his and all the podcasts and organizations there in the

04:33

UK. All of their bank accounts are being cancelled. And they can't find banks to open an account with because they don't support the narrative.

04:43

Chick -fil -A is now going for their ESG score. And if you're wondering why all this is happening, other than the judgment of God taking out the

04:54

United States for its sin. If you're wondering why all this is happening, I didn't understand it either, but I've had a number of smart people direct me to sources demonstrating that it's not the tyrants in the

05:13

Biden regime that are doing this, though they're allied with the people that are. It's people at BlackRock and these huge conglomerates that control banks and industry and if you want to get you have to have a certain

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ESG score. DEI, ESG, all this stuff to get a decent bank loan, to get a decent rate on a bank loan.

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And people keep saying why would these companies look at what has happened to Target $10 billion in market value, gone.

05:53

$1 billion a day Bud Light just destroyed.

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Why? Because you can get better loan rates and that ends up making up for all that money.

06:07

I mean, I'm no financier but what everybody is telling me is that's what this is all about is just having your place in the corporate world and the people at the top have decided we are going to destroy the

06:26

United States of America we're going to destroy western culture, we're going to destroy Judeo -Christian values sexuality, humanity all of it gotta go and so we're just going to use money to do it and we're going to use people's greed to do it they're the same people destroying farms, the same people destroying livestock, they want us hungry, poor and dependent

06:51

I can't help but think of just one movie what was that movie with Matt Damon in it where all the elites live up on a space station and they have special medical treatments and all the rest of the stuff and all the rest of the scum live in township type towns townships from South Africa Soweto and stuff like that back on Earth that's their goal that's what they want and they are accomplishing it it is astonishing at the rate they labored for decades they laid the foundation they prepared the environment educational system, universities they made it so people think that the first place you turn is to the government the government needs to do this for me the government needs to do that for me and so they you gotta give them credit they had their goal and now they're not going to accomplish it in the end they don't realize that what they're doing they do realize it's rebellion against God but they don't realize that you can't live in the world

08:10

God created in that way and it's all going to fall down on top of itself but as it may we have to go through the judgment and the process anyways before we get to other stuff and get back into that I have with me a little item that I showed from the mobile unit which is currently in storage and I think it's going to be really interesting when

08:41

I pull that thing back out of storage in just a matter of weeks we've got to unfortunately we're going to have to take that background down and redo it we're going to have to pull that and then clean that surface and then use some kind of pre -adhesive something to do it right but hey

09:03

I got really close nobody can tell but it's not going to survive but it can be done and we will make it happen and I love it and it's great to be able to do that anyways

09:16

I showed you this ooh better be careful this is our

09:26

Derek Melton forged I don't know how he would describe this he had a specific thing especially for this handle and I saw what the handle looked like as a block

09:40

I'm not sure exactly how he does this he has this well it's changing he's having a new workshop built anyway he said this is the most amazing

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Damascus steel that he's ever forged and it is truly gorgeous it's a piece of art with a really nicely made and it clicks right in there that's why it took me a second to get it out there sheath and so this was originally for the fundraiser and you all have already been so gracious we have paid off those things but so now you know

10:30

I sat the new RV sat in Derek's right in front of literally

10:37

I was plugged into the same electrical circuit that runs the forge and all the rest of that stuff and so I was right next to the workshop just across the lawn from the house

10:52

I got to have to dodge Sadie their new puppy who is a puppy and who loves to jump but will be a much calmer

11:03

Australian Shepherd in the future I'm sure and their little teeny tiny kitty that I fell in love with and fell in love with me two years ago little princess she's skin and bones now just like my

11:19

Darth is skin and bones they're at the end of their run but it was sweet to see all of them anyways, point being to get back to places like prior we have the travel fund and so the kindly donated items will be going to the travel fund and so I'm not sure did we announce what the bible's final thing was?

11:46

I think I may have so very very thankful to those who made bids toward the

11:58

Jeffrey Rice the final on that was $1 ,700 that was really really amazing and just so thankful to Jeffrey and everybody who made that possible so when are you gonna put it up?

12:19

Rich says he can put it up today or tomorrow the only thing is we have to limit it to the

12:25

United States it's a knife literally you can't own this in London it's astonishing but it's true you can't own it in London sorry guys but that's the way it is so we don't want to have to play games with stuff getting hung up in customs and all the rest of that kind of stuff so we're gonna have to limit it to the

12:49

US where you can still own a knife at least in most places maybe we should keep

12:55

New York City out and San Diego San Francisco as if anybody there would be bidding on it anyways and we'll be putting that up and that'll be going toward the

13:05

Travel Fund we have three more trips one, two, three more trips this year the one in July is about 4 ,300 miles, 33 days

13:17

I have not started booking September yet I need to but that one takes me all the way back to Pennsylvania, Atlanta that's gonna probably be,

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I estimate around 5 ,300 miles something like that and so gotta make all that happen and so we very much appreciate

13:41

Pastor Melton's support and looking forward to there is a little competition there are people going which one's gonna get the biggest biggest bid and if you're familiar with handmade blades and stuff like that then you have some idea what something like this would normally go for and so we'll see what happens from there, so that'll be great alright, watch, that'll be on Facebook as we are at the moment, anyways for now until we're not because in essence what we're discovering is there is a tiny tiny tiny minority of very loud screechy people who, it only takes one or two complaints and that gets people taken down, it gets their bank accounts cancelled the cancelled culture is amazing as long as you are the victim and it is there's no way for free speech and civilization to continue under this kind of regime but that's what we're facing yes sir?

14:55

so on the twitch front remember twitch right? I've tried to forget it so they've reactivated the account after a 30 day suspension and they can't figure out why we're not coming back and I keep getting emails and I keep sending them emails back and through support saying hey you guys arbitrarily cancelled us you never once gave us an example of how we violated your community standards yet when you actually read point 3 on the charge that you make against us it has to do with accusing or attacking a religious organization how is it that what you did here was not an attack on a religious organization you guys are hypocrites just delete the account you can't be depended on you can't be trusted goodbye and that's what

15:50

I'm trying to do with them yeah well that's gonna look this is the kind of secular totalitarianism that has taken over corporations government across the western world not so much in Africa but everywhere else cannot allow for free speech cannot allow for anyone to think other than the way you're supposed to think according to them they lose their minds when anyone has a thought outside of the realm that they demand that we possess and so this is coming for all of us we were talking more about it in 2021 because we saw all the lockdowns and the vax stuff and everything else it's coming back we will not escape this like I said banking and boy once they've got digital currency that's it

17:06

I don't have the answers as to how we will be able to continue to try to be of encouragement and to discuss important subjects and to get information out there and do research and things like that I don't know

17:20

I just don't know you know there's the dark web and stuff like that I suppose

17:26

I don't know about that stuff and most people who really need the ministry we provide don't know about that stuff either and I can guarantee you what will eventually happen is it will be illegal to even try to access such things and then they'll just put away anybody they want to put away by accusing you of trying to access that and since they probably have access to your computer anyways they can make it look like you did that's what monoparties is we have all these books that describe all this stuff 40 -50 years ago and yet we're doing it despite the fact that 40 -50 years ago people were saying you know things keep going this way this could happen and we were we were just like didn't even see it coming so while we still have the opportunity let's talk about the things that are important I just made a mistake and I wonder if I can get back to that.

18:37

Oh good. Nope I didn't. Oh is it here? Okay good. Alright couple things

18:44

I need to get to a Catholic Answers article that I had never seen until yesterday

18:52

I think it was published on my birthday last year by Joe Heschmeier who looks about well

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I don't think Joe Heschmeier was around when we were doing all the debates with Catholic Answers let's just put it that way

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I think he's that young I want to take a look at that article which again

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I said just saw it and went oh okay there's something we need to respond to before we get to that and the debate threads that developed without my input or permission

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I would add over the past week or so couple things that again

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I'm hesitant to address it for any other reason than this particular program could just disappear in the middle of it's being broadcast because the topics that we need to talk about again are no longer topics that allow for free speech but we'll take a shot and if that means we're back on Odyssey on Thursday then that's what it means but two things over the past 24 hours one was a video of a

20:22

Charlie Kirk Turning Point USA event Charlie Kirk has a black male on the stage with him who

20:34

I guess is a self professed homosexual in fact calls himself a gay Christian I don't know anything about the man like I said the video just sort of popped up last evening and a fellow in the audience basically asks how can we be defending conservatism when we won't hold the line on marriage, homosexuality transgenderism all of these types of things and at the same time you have that video which did not turn out well let's just put it that way there really wasn't an answer given other than we just need a big tent and there are other important things to focus upon and we need to have people like this in our movement at the same time

21:45

Ted Cruz posted a tweet the nation of Uganda has passed a law criminalizing homosexuality and in fact including

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I believe the death penalty for exacerbated homosexuality or something whatever term they're using and all of a sudden people are having to think about stuff that they didn't have to think about again prior to 2020

22:30

I would like to ask Ted Cruz what he thinks about Leviticus 18 and 20 and whether the mosaic code was horrific and wrong but I'd have to ask that question of pretty much every evangelical across the western world

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I think I could be wrong but I think the answers today would be different in 2023 than they would have been five years ago

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I don't think the vast majority of us had even given consideration

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I had obviously but I don't think the vast majority of evangelicals had even given consideration to the concept and to the relevance of God's law in the modern context most people are probably not aware of the fact that sodomy was a crime in the

23:45

United States from the beginning the founding fathers certainly did not believe it was one of the human rights that have since been discovered in their writings that they didn't know were there at all and that these had been overturned only recently

24:06

American history is not the biggest strength of most Americans unfortunately but the real issue is if we were to honestly ask if we were to honestly ask most church attending

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Christians I way over fizzed my fizzy water today

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I mean it kept overflowing anyway if we were to ask pretty much everybody attending church coming

24:43

Sunday about that Ugandan law I think 99 % of people would go

24:53

I agree with Ted Cruz it's terrible and then if you were to say was living under God's law under Moses a horrific and wrong thing yeah you're right aggravated homosexuality was that grotesque and an abomination really poorly chosen terms there from Senator Cruz since that's the term used in Leviticus 18 and 20 of that activity what would they say then well that was then this is now okay so the nature of the law that defined sin so that there was a need for a propitiatory sacrifice on the cross of Calvary that law is horrific wrong grotesque and abomination is that right

26:15

Christians really struggle when the law was first given there was a man that went out broke the

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Sabbath law he was stoned and modern sensibilities that live very very sheltered lives modern sensibilities go no no no no

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I'm not I'm not going to accept that I can't accept that I can't go there

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I can't do that without realizing the disjunction that will eventually lead to you unhitching the

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Old Testament from the New Testament that's where it goes there's no way to avoid it that's been the process it's

27:08

I just I can't believe that God would wipe out the Amorites because the idea of the wrath of God against a horrifically sinful nation like our own not like we've done anything worse than the

27:23

Amorites we have that's just not it's not there and that's why your doctrine of atonement amongst a large portion of Christians is weak sauce it's emotional it isn't biblical that's why much of what

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Hebrews says is just lost on people because it's all based upon that Levitical law that they don't even read anymore because they don't like it it doesn't fit my views that's where we are that's where we are and so it has been well said that there should be no problem passages in the

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Bible not that there are not passages that are difficult or take a lot of study to understand things like that but once you understand what it said it shouldn't be a problem anymore but that's not where the vast majority of Christians are vast majority of professing

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Christians do believe that they have the right to pass judgment on God's law and God's word and what

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God has done in the past you know my God wouldn't do that well then your God is an idol your

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God is you I wouldn't do that so my God wouldn't do that so I'm God that's pretty much how it functions so here's the situation where once again we have been given the opportunity to think through something to think it through well and when you saw this when you saw what

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Senator Cruz said what was your thought?

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what was your thinking? what did you think at that point in time? did you go he's missed something here or we've outgrown the

29:31

Mosaic Code there's a lot of Christians who believe that that we've outgrown the Mosaic Code because they recognize well you know it's been fulfilled okay everything is prophetic ceremonial that marked and here's the big one that marked the people of Israel as they were being the people through whom the promise would come but you can't get away from the moral content of the

30:07

Mosaic Code and the fact that the Apostles continued to believe that it was a fundamental standard you can't get away from that but people don't like it and we're not going to have a consistent response so let's we've thought about that okay have to think through does

30:30

Uganda have the right to do this as a nation then we go to the

30:40

Charlie Kirk thing now Charlie Kirk is based here in Phoenix I've never met the man

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I don't know anything about him really don't he's based here in Phoenix and at this point we are we have to once again look at there are those who are saying we need the

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Big Ten we need the numbers we need to have this movement to preserve the

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United States okay and what's going to be the basis of that preservation what

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United States is going to be preserved because what

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Charlie Kirk may or may not understand is the Founding Fathers would not have been sitting where he was sitting in that context they would not have accepted the idea of the redefinition of marriage, the profaning of marriage, the profaning of sexuality the profaning of gender and by any of that and so what we've done is we've created this way of thinking where it's like well we really appreciate the big ideas they had but we've come up with really better applications and better understandings and what we're saying is we have a higher moral plane than they did and what that means is that moral plane no longer is based upon mankind as being made in the image of God and so we have a number of people who are saying well it's almost

32:35

June and you just you just be ready and it is going to be worse than ever

32:44

I was looking at an email from a company that I do business with and oh my goodness the pride stuff is unbelievable it is going to be at a level we've never seen it before and I talked about this last week and the week before that and there's deep temptation but then

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I look around and I go okay if I stop doing business with them who am

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I going to do business with they're all doing the same thing they're all doing the same thing and for all the same reasons anybody who stands up and says we're not going to do this is just going to get hammered they're going to be destroyed so what's the answer if we call ourselves conservatives what are we conserving what is there to conserve what has value if the male female relationship if the family mother father the biggest problem in our country is that we think that any man and any woman of almost any age anymore can have sex just for the fun of it and that's the ultimate good there's no such thing as adultery anymore there's no such thing as fornication anymore those are good things and so what kind of political alliances can be produced when you can't answer the question what are we conserving and why is it of value so if you've got charlie kirk sitting next to a quote unquote gay christian

35:06

I'd love to talk to this fellow about why that is an oxymoron it doesn't work it's unbiblical we've addressed it a thousand times and I know that there are plenty of apostate progressivists out there that will pat you on the back and say oh yeah you're right with Jesus don't worry about any of that bible stuff

35:30

I know that's why they're there that's why they're doing what they're doing that's their whole function in this whole mess but I'm not interested in conserving that I can't be interested in conserving that there has to be a foundation there has to be a world view that makes sense that gives guidance to any kind of governmental system and that's the problem with donald trump he doesn't have that world view either

36:03

I'm sorry all of you who are just massive you know I see you driving down the road by the way that big old honking trump flag really destroys your gas mileage

36:14

I just thought I'd mention that to you in passing it's like putting a sail behind I don't know what you're losing but it's a lot

36:24

I hate to tell you he doesn't have it either in fact especially on this subject did you see the thing he had at Mar -a -Lago only a few months ago you know all the log cabin republicans and all the rest of that stuff and what's her face here in Arizona sorry just lost the name ran for governor should have won

36:45

Carrie Lake was there Carrie Lake may end up still being the governor of Arizona the way things are going some of the evidence that did you see the videos oh my gosh

36:57

I mean if that doesn't get overturned move along let's not talk that's right can't talk about that if that election doesn't get overturned no election will ever get overturned if you can have video of the people reprogramming the voting machines and it still doesn't get overturned it's done just don't even bother with elections it's over with here in Maricopa County forget it forget it if those people don't end up in jail just don't even

37:26

I'm not going to bother there's no reason to anyway

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Carrie Lake was there and he doesn't have this world view Ted Cruz doesn't have that world view and I thought of all people he might but he doesn't he doesn't what are we conserving that's the question that's the question we are called to be faithful even in the midst of judgment and that's the big issue right now you got the young wild eyed

38:08

Christian nationalists over on this side that are thinking that their 5 ,000 people across the

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United States are going to rush in and save everything then you've got serious thinkers who are trying to say this is all going to come apart it's going to fall apart excuse me it is going to crash and burn and something has to rise from the ashes now we know that the

38:48

Chinese and the WF and the WHO and BlackRock they have a vision of what they want to see rising from the ashes but the problem is what they want to see requires the fundamental negation of God's creative decree it can't last there's no foundation the only foundation is pure force and the

39:17

Soviets managed that for 70 years and with technology they may double or triple that I can see that happening but it can't last it will come apart and what do you do then what do you do then that's the issue it was very disappointing to see that video and a lot of people being put in a position where they feel like they're between a rock and a hard place

39:45

I get that but the fact is the only answer that we have is summed up far too simply but it is summed up in the phrase it's

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Christ or chaos and here's the chaos the chaos is all around us so are we going to try to build a lean -to in the middle of the hurricane of chaos no you gotta have a solid foundation and conservatives don't understand people who are conservatives politically but not because of the lordship of Christ don't understand they look at us and go you don't get it we have to have the votes and we go votes don't change hearts what are you trying to conserve and so anyway there's that alright wow it's 1040 how did that happen there's a really high chance

40:54

I'm not going to get through all this but we can try I don't know who

41:01

Joe Heschmeyer is but he wrote for Catholic Answers last

41:08

December and the white question what

41:14

James White gets wrong about Jews and the Bible how did the believing

41:20

Jewish person know that Isaiah in 2 Chronicles or Scripture are 50 years before Christ that's the question that the

41:26

Protestant Apologist James White asked of his then Catholic opponent Jerry Matitix I'm really surprised they even use

41:35

Jerry Matitix in the mention his name then Catholic opponent

41:40

Jerry Matitix who of course was working at Catholic Answers until was it 92

41:50

I forget when he left might have been he may have still been there I think yes

42:00

I think so even though they recommended Rich asked he was out by the time we debated him in Denver was that 93 but the weird thing is it was

42:15

Catholic Answers that suggested Jerry for that debate because they were doing a debate up there yes yes yes yes yeah yeah yeah

42:26

I know anyway in a 1993 radio debate and for the next 29 years he's repeated this question even dubbing it the

42:35

White question after himself no my friend you are wrong Catholic Answers gets

42:41

I don't know why it is but you know when they did the hit piece on my

42:47

CRI article in the 90's just not accurate in their information I don't know why it is you can take some guesses but anyway

43:00

I did not dub it that at all I don't remember who it was it was on a it was either a interview that was being done with St.

43:14

Joseph's Catholic Communications or it was something

43:19

Tim Staples did but I was listening because someone said you need to listen to this and this was this was back

43:30

I was using a cassette tape recording and you know what do you have a quick splash screen yeah

43:47

I do could you just pop it up real fast give me just a second sure we'll be right back hold on alright sorry about that some things just can't wait

44:50

I was listening on a cassette tape recording of one of those two sources it may have been a call in show in fact now

45:02

I think about it it was a call in show and it was the

45:08

Roman Catholics that called it the white question and I heard it twice two different shows may have been two different people so I did not name it

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I did not name it after myself somebody else did and so there's that correction according to white

45:28

Roman Catholics don't have an answer for it well I would agree that's the case because Jerry did not have an answer for it and in the weeks and months afterwards one guy suggested that the only way was to use the

45:45

Urim and the Thummim the sacred dice is the second chronicle of all scriptures that type of thing the other answers were the

45:58

Jewish Magisterium which doesn't work because in fact that was the other thing

46:06

I knew I had forgotten something I was going to grab it but hold it up because as has been demonstrated in the

46:14

Old Testament and the New Testament Church which is a book that should have had like 14 footnotes in this article but was never mentioned once by Roger Beckwith as he demonstrated conclusively the

46:29

Jewish Magisterium did not accept what Rome has defined 1546 years after Christ as the canon of the

46:42

Old Testament so if that Magisterium was infallible then the

46:50

Roman Magisterium is not for obvious reasons you can't have one contradicting the other and so the answers that have been offered simply have been self contradictory because the recognition of canon over time has been a messy process and there have been disagreements down through history and especially on the issue of the

47:22

Apocryphal Books New Testament stuff not so much really you don't have that but of course

47:31

New Testament is a smaller body of documents than the

47:37

Old Testament is New Testament is written in a much shorter time period and there's a lot of differences in how the

47:44

New Testament is transmitted over the Old Testament but the fact is and here is the fact that was not dealt with in this article at all you had two traditions that can be easily traced in church history you have a tradition represented by someone like Augustine who accepts the canonical status of the

48:15

Apocryphal Books the Deuterocanonicals as they're called by Roman Catholics and does so basically upon the acceptance of the

48:28

Septuagint as a whole and the form of the Septuagint that they experienced the manuscripts that they had access to and then you have a tradition that is made up of the people that knew the most about the

48:46

Old Testament and the Hebrew language there really is a distinction when you look at the people who actually learned

48:55

Hebrew interacted with Jews learned

49:00

Hebrew from Jews when you look at a Melito of Sardis when you look at Jerome they recognize that the

49:15

Jews did not accept these books as Scripture and since the

49:20

Oracles of God were entrusted to the people of Israel Romans chapter 3 then that was definitive for them and this continues on this is represented by Pope Gregory the

49:33

Great who plainly said that the Book of Maccabees were not canonical this was the

49:39

Pope in Rome all the way through to Cardinal Jimenez who interviewed

49:46

Luther at the time of the Reformation who in his commentaries likewise said that the

49:54

Apocryphal Books were not to be considered canonical Scripture and primarily because he was representing

50:00

Jerome's perspective so you have two parallel traditions the less informed and the more informed you come to the

50:14

Council of Trent and Trent is a reactionary council it is reacting against the

50:23

Protestant Reformation and because of the incredibly weak references in Maccabees that are taken as being supportive they're not they had idols on their bodies for crying out loud it was not venial sin immortal sin it's just amazing how far you've got to stretch someone gave me a

50:51

Stretch Armstrong it's actually out in the kitchen someone while I was traveling gave me a Stretch Armstrong to use for when you're stretching the truth but because of that a group of people and I would say 99 .9995

51:09

% of the human race has no earthy idea who all the bishops at Trent were or why they should all of a sudden be granted the final access to God's mind when it comes to Scripture because if you're

51:30

Roman Catholic Trent dogmatically defined the canon for you and you see the issue here is that especially back in the 90s, especially back when

51:44

I was debating Jerry Matic's on this subject I've told the story before but when

51:50

Jerry and I had talked about the two subjects we were going to do we decided to do justification and the apocrypha and we sort of jokingly said, wow

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I hope we can I hope we can be heard over the snoring I think was the actual joke we were bantering back and forth

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I hope we can hear over the snoring when we do the apocrypha debate that's not how it turned out the apocrypha debate was considerably more contested and is a description than the justification debate was and when we got to the end when

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I got to my final closing statement I said I hope that what you understand you've heard here this evening is

52:51

Jerry's argument is the apocrypha is

52:57

Scripture because we say so and we're right and you know when you think about it when you think about what

53:05

Trent Horn said in that post debate thing that he did a few months ago after the

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Sola Scriptura debate with Gavin Ortland that's basically what he said too the only thing that's worth debating is this subject because if we're right, we're right there's no reason to debate the apocrypha we're right, we're the church we tell you what to believe sola ecclesia it's sola ecclesia versus sola scriptura, that's all it is and there is a sense in which when you're talking about ultimate authorities that's what it boils down to but of course our perspective is

53:46

God's revelation is true over history so you know if Roman Catholicism is going to say well the

53:55

Pope has always been the infallible vicar of Christ you might be able to demonstrate that through history but you can't you know you can't you know that flies in the face of everything that took place in church history but you know

54:12

I keep reminding everybody when John Paul II was still alive he put out a a statement that was very clearly in contradiction to what had been said by in unum sanctum long, long ago by a previous

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Pope obviously and when I point out the contrast it was Bobs and Janice who said you don't have the right to interpret what the church has said in the past only the church has the right to interpret what the church has said in the past so it's a vicious circle but at least it demonstrates and illustrates that it is just that we are right because we are right that's what it boils down to so the answer that is given and there's a bunch of stuff

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I could've looked it took the time to quote a number of things that I've written at various places it is interesting number of quotes they have speaking of scripture they have

55:24

God as their author sounds like what means means life giving not

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God breathed just reminding you of a really in fact

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I don't even think the guy who wrote the article was a Catholic it still amazes me it still amazes me that Trenhorn did that that he actually pulled out this weird article trying to argue that Paul's argument is life giving yeah scriptures are life giving, that's true but that's not how it fits into context of 2

56:02

Timothy at all and there have been some really wacky articles maybe he didn't run across the other article published about 10 years ago trying to come up with a completely different meaning for there's been a bunch of them out there but but wouldn't it be wonderful if the

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Roman Catholic Church would come out and infallibly define these things but they won't they won't, you would think after 2000 years we would have the infallible commentary you could just turn to it, there it is won't do it um, you know no more than Sixtus' infallible

56:37

Vulgate or all of the papal encyclicals that said capital punishment ordained by God but not anymore and let me just point something out to you, again uh

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I really doubt and I said this before but I'll say it again look you know,

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I appreciate Roman Catholic apologetics will always be conservative because only conservatives have something to defend their progressives don't have anything to defend so they don't do apologetics but you look at the people your own pope has put two advocates of pro -choice positions on Vatican councils within the past six months have you been watching the people he's put on the papal biblical commission, people your your apologetics are so much more conservative than your leadership is that it makes all of us sit back and go guys, have you noticed look behind you see the people sawing the limb you're standing on they're your guys, they're not our guys have you looked do you know what

58:04

South American Roman Catholic theology is all about and what if the next pope and I've heard a lot of rumors about Francis' health recently what if the next pope is one of the people one of his acolytes that he's put into position of cardinal what if he's packed that college what if they continue and there's more of these people you have to change your beliefs because they're the ones to tell you what to believe you don't see that you don't have an objective foundation that's why

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I was really interested to see someone who was actually interacting with what

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Francis has done about the death penalty and about capital punishment he can't do that he can't do that this is the this is the constant teaching you just can't change the constant teaching of the church who gets to define what the constant teaching of the church is

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I can read Dei Verbum and I can read Unum Sanctum and I can go back to the context of Unum Sanctum I can go back to the context of Dei Verbum can't we all no, not if you're a

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Roman Catholic the context is irrelevant it means nothing if the modern church says this is what they meant back then that's what they meant back then you have to accept that you gotta go there you're stuck with it so make a long story short here the answer given by Joe Heschmeier is the census fidelium so how did the

59:57

Jewish people know which books belong in their bible because God revealed it not through another writing such as the heavenly table of contents but a body, the people of God that's great only one problem if he was actually interacting because he quotes from me a lot but what he doesn't quote from is then the demonstration that the people of God the

01:00:20

Jewish people did not accept those books as scripture they recognized that they were that the bath coal had stopped this bath coal, the voice of God had ceased the spirit of prophecy had ceased with Malachi they recognized that and so they didn't view these books, they didn't make the hands dirty they had not been laid up in the temple and all this is in the debates we did not so much in the first debate but rather fully laid out in the debate with Gary Machuda which is still available so the answer given here is only for people who want to find an answer but don't want to have to think too deeply about it because it's really nice to say that but the fact is that the canon defined by people you don't know and have no reason to believe had access to some apostolic tradition 1546 years after the birth of Christ is different than the canon that would have been recognized by the

01:01:43

Jews to whom Jesus was speaking in the New Testament and we can go through he mentions the argument here about the

01:01:51

Sadducees, there's really a lot of question about that whether they had a two -layer canon or only the

01:01:57

Pentateuch and all the rest of that kind of stuff he even brings that particular argument up but when you look at the apostolic example what the apostles quote as scripture it's consistent with what the

01:02:13

Jews as a group preserved as scripture and viewed as scripture had laid up in the temple prior to its destruction in AD 70 and prior to the birth of Jesus so the answer is still not given because the answer is just a fancy way of saying the

01:02:33

Jewish Magisterium but the Jewish Magisterium does not give you what Trent gave you you still have the same contradiction and the point was back then the argument that was being made was without our infallible canon you can't have scripture at all which means nobody had scripture until 1546 but then they got a different scripture than they would have had 50 years before Christ it doesn't work these claims of ultimate authority that Rome makes they just don't work you push them far enough and they fall apart they fall apart so I appreciate the argument but the reality is that and it's funny and so we ought to look to the church not only for the proper 73 book canon of scripture but also for the meaning of those books or in Jerome's words we ought to remain in that church which was founded by the apostles and continues to this day except Jerome recognized that those very books were not canonical they did not have the same value he thought they were valuable but he did not view them as scripture why quote him?

01:04:07

isn't that somewhat like but ok but then please notice what he says here not only for the proper canon of scripture but also the meaning of those books that sounds like who defines what scripture is who defines what scripture means who defines what tradition is oh that's the church sola ecclesia no matter how hard they try to say no no no as soon as they make an argument they prove the point you believe in sola ecclesia the church is your final authority but the problem is your church is changing your church is changing and has changed in the past so let's talk a little bit about debates we're going a little bit over time but that's alright let's talk about debates once again let me make sure everyone understands

01:05:08

I I was coming back last week

01:05:18

I left on Monday some of you can drive for 7 -8 hours a day

01:05:27

I can do that like one day and then that's going to be it for a while so you know it's the way we travel now it's the way it is just physically especially with the problems

01:05:43

I now have with my left arm if I do much more than 3 .5 -4 hours

01:05:50

I'm going to be in a world of hurt and unfortunately I designed the next trip before that happened so I'm going to be doing a number of 5 -6 hour days and I'm not sure exactly how that's going to work but anyway

01:06:06

I'm coming back and I'm getting sick I started feeling something like on Tuesday night you wake up in the middle of the night you got that wonderful sore throat and it's like ah here it comes once you get to my age you recognize all the signs and you have recognized them for years and years anyway so I don't have a whole lot of time for social media and I start seeing all this stuff there's some guy became

01:06:33

Roman Catholic and as normal what you notice is

01:06:41

Roman Catholics celebrate conversion to a church Protestants celebrate conversion to Christ and then service in the church it's very different and some guy posted some picture of his conversion to Roman Catholicism blah blah blah and somehow a conversation got started about debates and our dearly beloved

01:07:09

Algo decided to jump in with both feet, both hands and keyboard and brother

01:07:20

Algo just got more than slightly overly excited and I'm I'm not even seeing most of this but stuff would come up because I got tagged in the thread and Trent Horn's in it and Jimmy Akin's in it and I'm sitting here going what on earth is going on I would have to sit down and this is one of the problems with this especially if you try to jump into something days later trying to find which thread something was said in somebody will say something you go where did that come from I don't know it's because it's on a thread over here and then it came over we've all experienced it and it's a bit on the frustrating side but I did have a guy really annoying guy come up to me in Salt Lake City I think both before and after the debate that Jeff and I did with the atheist and his whole thing was you've got to debate

01:08:18

Jimmy Akin and Sola Scriptura and I'm like okay how many times we debated

01:08:25

Sola Scriptura so far I've lost track how many Sola Scriptura debates we've done but what about the other topics that are right there front and center right now that are relevant to the issues now you have a

01:08:42

Pope and I'm old enough to know that his his theology his practice is not the practice of John Paul II I mean

01:08:58

I don't remember Vatican II but a lot of things be a changing and it seems like y 'all don't want to talk about that and you don't want to deal with that issue so I was like dude we're here debating atheists why don't you go away anyway so I started seeing all this stuff and well debate this there's only one person well there's two people

01:09:30

I would allow Rich to do this but if it's if I'm not the one talking about it then that's not representing me and arranging debates today is a lot different than it used to be

01:09:45

I don't like all this stuff where debates are being done on a week's notice maybe because I'm just stupid and slow but I spent six months preparing for my debate with Bart Ehrman James Price John Dominic Cawson hundreds of hours and hopefully that's made those debates have much longer lasting value than the let's do a debate on my video cam in my basement with the fan going in the background type stuff that has now become rather prevalent

01:10:39

I could certainly see the possibility of some narrow topic debates that could be done electronically

01:10:51

I prefer in person debating I think it's more coherent

01:10:59

I think it's more personable but these days it doesn't have to be that way and we're certainly getting to the point where I would like to have a debate on the road in my studio,

01:11:18

I think that'd be great I think it's perfectly doable it could be a little bit on the challenging side, you've got technical stuff you're doing at the same time you're trying to concentrate and that could throw you off but I certainly think that it would be a doable thing

01:11:40

I think again, if what

01:11:46

Trent Horn said is now the Catholic answer's position that this is the only topic that we're going to debate or then he says apostolic succession now that's fascinating because that's not the

01:12:07

Roman Catholic position yes it is I know you believe in whatever you call apostolic succession

01:12:15

Eastern Orthodox have their view, Anglicans have their view for crying out loud but that's not the ultimate authority claim of the

01:12:25

Roman Catholic Church but it's not the ultimate claim all you have to do is look at the history of conciliarism all you have to do is to recognize that there is a fundamentally definitional aspect of the authority of the

01:12:50

Bishop of Rome as the personal successor of Peter that transcends any concept of apostolic succession and defines the specific claims of Rome over against something like Eastern Orthodoxy because Eastern Orthodoxy has its own doctrine of apostolic succession so it sounds like we recognize that if we're taking the negative against the other side's positive about scripture being the sole infallible rule of faith yeah we do sort of have to defend our side even though it's not been something they've done a lot so we'll defend something more generic

01:13:43

I don't think that ever would have been suggested in the 1990s as long as John Paul II was alive

01:13:51

I don't think this conversation would have taken place I really really don't and I find that fascinating I think it is really really interesting but I did see and I'm not sure if it's yeah no it disappeared there was a point

01:14:22

I thought I could be wrong about this because I can't pull it up now Twitter keeps how it changes it is

01:14:32

Jimmy Akin as long as Jimmy Akin 3000 is Jimmy Akin 3000 if one has a solo scriptura perspective yes that would be the question and the answer is yes it does well what's that in response to Anna Maria Perez had said here was 23 hours is that 23 hours from now ago who knows

01:14:58

James I have said countless times I imagine I am happy to debate major issues with you with mutually agreed upon definition do

01:15:10

Marian dogmas contradict scripture I'm even open to can Christians believe in purgatory what would be your exact Francis resolution okay that's useful and then

01:15:20

Jimmy Akin had said Anna Maria Perez had said can Christians believe in purgatory

01:15:26

Christians can believe in leprechauns if they want the question is the question should be does the

01:15:32

Bible support purgatory I agree with Anna Maria on that and that was my first thought when

01:15:42

I saw Trenthorne's tweet is not can Christians believe in purgatory but did the apostles teach purgatory or is purgatory consistent with apostolic teaching in scripture and then

01:16:01

Jimmy Akin said if one has a solo scripture perspective yes that would be the question that is does the

01:16:09

Bible support purgatory and the answer is yes it does now that really surprises well okay it does surprise me

01:16:15

I know that Trenthorne and Jimmy Akin both believe in purgatory but didn't hasn't that already didn't we already demonstrate that there are some really fundamental problems here or are you all admitting that the debates we've done in the past your side lost um because um the

01:16:42

Long Island debate on that subject with the editor of the Catholic Answer was really clear okay

01:16:51

I think that was really obvious and I think the debate with with Tim Staples was very clear as well very straightforward so are you saying you all have a better presentation to make okay you have to have a better presentation to make than was made in the first debate because when you talk about Jimmy Swaggart okay that was yeah okay that was bad but Tim Staples got a better presentation to make than that I'd love to hear it um that one most definitely um

01:17:36

Marian dogmas is Trenthorne actually saying that you would defend the bodily assumption of Mary the immaculate conception perpetual virginity not all at the same time we did that once it would be

01:18:03

I'm just sitting here spitballing but it would be interesting to do those dogmas um maybe electronically in other words online um

01:18:22

I could see value in that and one of the main reasons being that the recording that we did with Jerry and of course from your perspective

01:18:34

I don't know what you'd say about Jerry anymore okay I don't know I haven't asked where you'd if you'd even want to mention his name but anyway is that what you're saying you'd be willing to do that and can

01:18:54

Christians believe in purgatory that's obviously um Anna Maria Perez was right

01:19:00

I wouldn't debate that one for a second because Christians believe in a lot of silly stuff but did the apostles teach purgatory is purgatory contradictory to the apostolic testimony things like that you bet

01:19:15

I think that's that's right up there but what would be your exact Francis resolution that has been the problem since the beginning

01:19:27

I forget now because we had we had an agreement with um

01:19:36

Tim Staples to debate in Sydney Australia I think that was 2018 might have been 2019 but I think it was 2018

01:19:49

I think it was a trip before the last trip I took to Australia and it was going to be on the papacy it was going to be on something related to Francis and I can't remember now what the exact wording was but I think that was also why it got canceled um because and here's part of the reason here's part of the problem whether you want to accept this part or not my assertion is that doctrines such as papal infallibility are utterly worthless doctrines they're utterly worthless doctrines and what do

01:20:32

I mean by that um they don't mean anything the

01:20:39

Pope is infallible unless he's not so Honorius was a heretic but he didn't infallibly teach it even though for 400 years his successors had to anathematize him as a heretic when they became

01:20:56

Pope for not having officially taught heresy it's historically laughable and in my debates with Tim Staples and Robert they took polar opposite positions on that subject and so it just seems utterly ridiculous

01:21:17

I just realized this shot you have right now has Martin Luther have him looking at the camera well the funny thing is so now because we've got this little guy too and he's lost his home he used to be up in the corner and we've got tribbles over here and all sorts of stuff so yeah we'll figure all this stuff out eventually but I just looked up there and saw that and was like oh that's interesting so why not if you're going to have that there yeah okay what were we talking about?

01:22:10

I don't remember. So Moses was in the bulrushes and yeah we were talking about debate topics here the problem is how to ask the question why is it

01:22:31

Trent, Jimmy that you know that your relationship to the papacy today is different than it was 20 years ago with John Paul II John Paul II has decried sheep stealing trying to convert people from other

01:22:54

Christian churches I'm sorry Francis said that not

01:23:00

John Paul II if I said John Paul II I meant Francis John Paul II would never when a question about homosexuality would never have said who am

01:23:14

I to judge I don't know how anyone who claims to be any kind of bishop in the church of Christ could make that kind of statement given what we see going on today

01:23:36

I would I would wonder what you all think about capital punishment in light of the change to Catholic Catechism because you know how pretty easy it would be to historically demonstrate the consistency of Rome's view on that subject for centuries on end and practice on that subject for centuries on end

01:24:04

I wonder how that fits in as well so I have

01:24:18

I would love to see a means of doing both digital as well as in person stuff but it has to be scheduled way out because I schedule everything way out because of the way

01:24:42

I travel now and you can't complain about that Jimmy cannot complain about that because Jimmy would not fly for decades and he knows

01:24:52

Chris Arnzen will tell you how many times Chris Arnzen contacted Jimmy Akin to be a part of the

01:24:57

Great Debate Series on Long Island and Jimmy Akin doesn't like to fly it's not that I don't like to fly I flew 165 ,000 miles in 2019 alone

01:25:06

I have like 760 ,000 miles toward my million mile thing which

01:25:13

I'll never get to on American Airlines that's not what the issue is the issue is very different now but putting together that kind of in person debate requires some kind of financial backing and it requires a context where a conference is already going to be taking place so you can provide the funds and stuff

01:25:45

I have a thought for one in an area where Roman Catholicism is very prevalent and hence would probably be we'd get support from both sides let's put it that way and hence might be able to split those costs and things like that that I want to try to pursue but we also might want to try a focused electronic debate maybe on just one of the

01:26:19

Marian Dogmas and see if we couldn't do that either in this studio the big studio however you all would work that out

01:26:32

Rich would have to be involved as far as you know I don't know what technology

01:26:39

Catholic Answers uses to do remotes and things like that but as you all know who have done those things you've got to jump through a lot of hoops to make that happen

01:26:50

I think that's great because if I'm reading this tweet correctly this sounds different than what was said on the post debate conversation okay alright that sounds good to me but it's not what was said before and that's where the problem lies but definitely the

01:27:18

Purgatory thing definitely the Marian Dogmas and I would like to know why you believe that well

01:27:39

I see the things that Francis says that give you an idea of what he believes are not the things that are official so how do you gain how do you gain insight into the infallible

01:28:02

Vicar of Christ guidance if what he says and teaches if what he prays if what he says to the young boy about his atheist father well that's not official so Honorius' letter to Sergius was but what you say in public isn't what good is

01:28:34

Francis what good is he does his alteration of the

01:28:47

Catholic Catechism amount to an official teaching why would a

01:28:52

Catholic and I can guarantee you I can find plenty who would say this why would a

01:28:58

Catholic who takes Francis' alteration of the Catechism as official teaching of the

01:29:05

Church why would they be wrong is that the official teaching of the Church has the official teaching of the

01:29:11

Church changed is that a is that a debatable issue those are some of the questions that I think need to be that would be useful to be addressed because anymore when

01:29:35

Jerry Matitix called our office in I don't know was it

01:29:44

June, July of 1990 the reasons for debating and the context of debating were very different than they are today

01:29:56

I'm not just talking about pre -Covid, post -Covid John Paul II versus Francis electronic medium um now more than ever back then we just wanted to have a voice, we just wanted to be heard and what we had to say now the issue is when we speak and when we invest the time because I will invest time and preparation what we produce needs to be worthwhile after we're gone that's what's important for me so, alrighty

01:30:40

I hope that addressed some of those things Algo, we love you, but you gotta cool your jets sometimes you run ahead and I'm not 30 anymore so chill dude relax, take a deep breath and we'll go from there so thanks for watching the program today hope it was useful to you we'll see you next time,