WWUTT 1485 Bethel Hillsongs, LBCF 1689 vs BFM 2000, Was Paul the 12th Apostle

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Why should your church not be singing songs from Bethel and Hillsong? What's the difference between the

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London Baptist Confession of Faith and the Baptist Faith and Message? And was Paul the real 12th

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Apostle? The answer is when we understand the text. This is

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When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible study that we can have the mind of Christ, renouncing ungodliness and worldly passions, and living godly lives in this present age.

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Tell your friends about our ministry at www .utt .com. Here once again is

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Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. How are you feeling there all pregnant and everything? Hot.

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It's warm in this room. I need a fan, but then I'd mess up the sound. You're also having to do third trimester of pregnancy in East Texas.

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Yeah. In the months of July and August. 32 weeks. Whoop, whoop. Out of 40, just so everybody's clear.

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In case you weren't aware. Thank you for all your prayers and encouragement. So far, we have a healthy baby boy.

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Oh, yes. And expecting his arrival, God willing, in September. Yes. And he's super strong, too.

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Yes. Oh, yeah. So we talked last week about our kids going off with some friends.

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They came home. The youngest is snuggling with Mommy. No. It wasn't

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Mariah. It was Aria. It was Aria. Okay. Yeah. She's six. And she was snuggling up on my lap and trying to get some snuggles in.

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And the baby was super excited to hear their voices again that he kicked her.

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And he kicked her so hard. It hurt her and me. So he was really excited.

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Oh, funny. Are you sure that's what it was? It was excitement? We're going to go with that. Get her out of here.

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That's my spot. This is my space. Uh -huh. Expectations.

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I have high expectations. You're believing that he is that warm, affectionate little brother.

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Yes. Well, I mean, boys are supposed to headbutt whether they love you or they hate you, right? That's true.

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So there you go. We're pretty aggressive with each other no matter what. Yeah. This is the

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Friday edition of the broadcast, and you can submit your questions to whenweunderstandthetext at gmail .com.

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This first one comes from North Carolina. Good morning, Pastor Gabe. I enjoyed hearing today's podcast relating to the two -by -two cult and instructions for the

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Lord's table. This was last week's episode, of course. I wonder if the open communion that the listener was referring to was open to all people, not just those who profess to be

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Christians and who were baptized and in good standing with their own churches. Minor point, but I thought clarification may be helpful.

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Okay, so let's rewind a little bit. Yes. Last week, Britt had asked a question about communion. He had visited a friend's church, and they were practicing open communion.

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Right. He was hesitant to participate. The advice that I gave was just because you're not a member at that church, don't feel like that you are somehow doing something wrong if you partake in communion there.

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So Chris, who is sending this email, he's suggesting that maybe the problem was that everybody was welcome to come.

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Nobody was checking anyone, and that's what was making Britt hesitant. Uncomfortable.

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Yes, to participate at the Lord's table, because maybe he's thinking, I mean, who are these people?

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Are we actually all in Christ here? Right, right. Or are there people that are participating in this thinking, hey,

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I'm partaking of the Lord's table, so I'm saved. And it's therefore sending the wrong message and leading to condemnation to those people who are partaking in an unworthy manner.

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I think in that situation, I would be hesitant too, honestly. But I think the same thing still stands as far as, you know, as long as your heart is in the right place and is good.

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You know, like you've cleared all of your sins with God, and you've asked for forgiveness, and you have made sure that you have done everything in your power to make you right with Christ to go partake in that table that you should.

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Right, if your conscience is clear, but if there's something about – Conscience is clear. That's what I was looking for. But if there's something about the way that communion is being handled, you're observing that, and you're thinking something's wrong here.

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Oh, like a red flag? Yeah, something goes up, and you're just like, I don't think this is the proper practice.

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Yeah. Then you probably should abstain. Okay. Lest you, by your action, would encourage somebody else in their sin to partake in the

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Lord's table in an unworthy manner and then bring condemnation on themselves. So consider what

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Paul says about considering each other's conscience in 1 Corinthians 8. Last week, we were in Chapter 11 about the proper practice at the

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Lord's table. Earlier in Chapter 8, Paul says, beginning in Verse 11, For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake

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Christ died. And in that way, by sinning against the brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.

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So if you do something that causes somebody else to sin, and you've not been mindful of your brothers and sisters in the

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Lord, then you likewise have sinned against Christ in that way. So if you don't know the way that church is doing communion, and what you're observing looks pretty sketchy there, probably a good idea to abstain.

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As I mentioned last week, it's always good to be mindful of this stuff in advance.

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So you're preparing your conscience the night before. Even if you get to church that day and you're seeing, oh, we're going to be participating in communion, find a few minutes before church starts to ask an elder, a deacon, the pastor, how do you guys do communion here?

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So that way you're not faced with the situation where you get there, that now everybody is being welcomed to the

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Lord's table, and you're going, I don't know, should I do this or not? So always be mindful of it in advance.

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Preparing your heart before the Lord, before you ever get to that table. So you even know at the time of communion that this church is right, and it is proper in the handling of the elements, and so I can partake in a clear conscience.

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And I know that I'm with brothers and sisters in the Lord as we're gathered together as one at this table.

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Okay, quick question. Yes. It's meant to be quick, so I know it can go on forever. So my question is, what would, like, say you have five minutes before church starts, and you found an elder or a pastor, and you're asking them, you know, like, tell me about your

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Lord's Supper. What is a good question to, like, nail at home of, oh, okay, I'm not partaking, or, oh, okay, it's okay to partake.

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Can you tell me what your requirements would be for me in order to partake with you at the

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Lord's table? Okay. Do you have certain requirements that you expect of your members before we partake in this?

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Right, or visitors. Right. You know, it's good to ask, too. You can ask something very particular like, do you welcome visitors to partake in communion with you?

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And then that even opens the door to, okay, so what are the specifics? Yeah, okay. What do you require of your members in order to partake in the

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Lord's table? I mean, it's unheard of for anybody to chase you away from the Lord's table anymore. Very rarely, yeah.

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It should be a thing, but it's not. You can ask, do you fence the table?

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Do you practice church discipline? Does everybody know that terminology? Well. They should.

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It should be a thing. If they don't. Everybody go and ask. If they don't, it's a good kind of cautionary flag.

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Okay, well, they're not really considering anybody's conscience who's coming to this table. Yeah. Therefore, is this church really mindful of one another?

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They're just checking off the boxes. Yes. See, and in that way, the church is not mindful of each other.

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And that's the way Paul instructs us to be in 1 Corinthians 11, that we are coming to the table mindful of each other.

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This is not, you're participating in the Lord's supper, so you get your Lord's supper fixed this week. Right. Checking your box, like you said.

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Yeah. It's, I don't know. This is something corporate. It's frustrating. We do it together.

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And it's not like our church only gets to do this. It's the body of Christ, which is much bigger than you can imagine, because it's worldwide.

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Yeah. I mean, Christians all over. Every tribe, tongue, and nation. Yeah. So, it's not just for your little church.

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It's for visitors, too. Yes. Yeah, I think that, you know, I understand those churches that have closed communion to the extent that only members can participate in communion.

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That's really the best way to know that everybody who's participating here today is right in heart to be able to do this with us.

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So, I get that, having that closed communion. But I also, you know, so the church that we came from in Kansas, we left it fairly open.

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Well, yeah. Our church functioned differently, though, because it was transient. And so, people coming in, people going out constantly.

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Yeah. And visitors coming, because families would come visit their families.

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And so, and friends. I mean, we just had two different family friends come visit us today.

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So, that was, well, yeah, a couple days away. It was open, but not to the extent of like, everybody come partake in communion.

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Right. We did not do communion at Easter or Christmas, because we knew that there would be a lot of people showing up who were the

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Christers. Yes. You know, they're just Christmas and Easter Christians. Picking off the boxes. And we know they're going to want to partake in the

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Lord's Supper, and their hearts are not fit to do this. Yeah. So, in those instances, we wouldn't do

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Lord's Supper for special occasions. We had very planned, specific days that we would do it on.

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Everybody knew so. We would tell visitors, you need to examine your heart. Same instructions

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Paul gives in 1 Corinthians 11. You need to not be under church discipline at, you know, whatever church you've come from.

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Right. But we would have like, guys under contract with Fort Riley or something like that would be there for a special project.

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And they're only there for about three weeks. They want a church to go to, and they want to be able to partake in communion.

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Right. And we also, you also required them to make sure that they are professing

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Christians and baptized. Yes, right. Yeah, definitely that. So, there was, yeah, I didn't want that to be missed.

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I wanted to make sure that was in there. You had to be a Christian. You had to be baptized. We would prefer that you be a member at a church somewhere.

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Yes. But we're not interviewing everybody to make sure that that was going to be the case. So, anyway, yeah, that was a good clarification there,

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Chris. And I hope, you know, some of those extra added things that we've mentioned give more clarity to our response to that question.

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It's tough to answer questions because you don't, you're not part of the situation.

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And so, there's, you know, some of these questions we get on the Q &A, we're like, you got to talk to somebody that's there.

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You need to talk to your pastor. Yeah. Why are you asking me any questions? Go ask your pastor. We invite them to ask questions.

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It's a good thing to ask questions, get a different perspective. But we're going to answer it to the best of our ability, which is just one -sided.

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One of the questions we have here is from somebody saying, hey, I've already talked to my pastor about this. Oh, good. That's a great start.

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But, yeah, when you go to visit a church and they're doing communion, ask in advance. Yes. You know, what are your requirements for communion?

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Is it open? Is it members only? And his friend could have answered most of those, I'm sure. Could have been.

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Right. So. So, anyway, I'm not even done with Chris's email here. Oh, I'm so sorry. Going on, my question today, which we haven't even gotten to, is about a topic

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I believe you have covered before, corporate worship, particularly music, and what can be considered a matter of Christian liberty.

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A podcast I listen to on a fairly recent basis recently did three episodes on the topic of music.

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Between the second and third episodes, I engage with them on Twitter regarding the apparent support of groups like Bethel, Jesus Culture, and Hillsong.

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You can throw Elevation Worship in there with that as well. They addressed my question on the podcast, taking the position that as long as the content of the song is in line with Scripture, then it's permissible to use.

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They cite other examples of hymns written by men who later are revealed to be heretics. I believe

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Justin Peters has done a fantastic job to address this issue in his interviews with Todd Friel and Joel Webbin.

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I concur with Justin's estimate, but I wanted to get your thoughts. Thanks again for everything you do in Christ.

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Chris. Name's really close to Christ. It is. Congratulations on having such a

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Christian name there, Chris. What are you looking at? I'm waiting for you to answer the question.

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Did I do one of those terrible jokes again like I did last week? Was it a bad joke? No. We're just going to kind of skip over that.

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So it's not really a Christian liberty issue as much as I would call it a wisdom issue.

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Oh, okay. Is it wise for you to be using songs from Elevation and Hillsong and Bethel and Jesus Culture?

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And my response to that would be no, it's not. It's not wise for you to be using those songs.

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And some of the reasons that Justin has given, I know he's given, and we've supplied on this broadcast before, is that first of all, using their songs, you are giving them money.

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Yeah, very true. Because to pay the rights to be able to use those songs is money that goes to those organizations.

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And this is a ministry strategy that they use to fund the stuff that they do.

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They desire to create good music and art that captivates people and draws them in.

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That is like a ministry pursuit of theirs. I was going to say like the sirens.

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Weren't they the ones that would sing the songs and bring them? So like the sailors, yeah, would hear the songs of the sirens and follow them and die.

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Yeah, they would. That's a pretty good connection there, babe. Sorry if that was harsh.

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Right. So they're drawing people into their heresy with the songs that they sing.

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And sometimes they will take classic songs, even classic hymns, Amazing Grace, On Christ the

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Solid Rock I Stand, something like that, and they'll change it, tweak it a little bit, kind of make it their own, modernize it.

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But people love it, and they get drawn in, and then they get roped right into the heresy that these respective churches are teaching.

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That's one of the things that you need to keep in mind. Well, it's really two. That was the two main points

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I was going to make. So first of all, you're singing their songs, which is therefore giving them money to use their music.

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And then secondly is that it does attract people into the heresy that they espouse.

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That is part of the mission strategy that they use to attract people. It's part of their attractional model that they have incorporated.

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And so anyway, as far as a wisdom issue goes, which I think it's more a matter of wisdom than it is Christian liberty, it is not wise.

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Now, the podcast that you said that you listened to, they compared this with other songs like older hymns written by men who were later revealed to be heretics.

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Often the song that gets used as an example of this is It Is Well With My Soul by Horatio Spafford, because we know what he ended up in later on in life was heresy.

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You also have the song Oh Holy Night, the Christmas hymn, that was written by two men, whether or not they were even

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Christians in the first place, or they could have been considered Christians by the kind of the shady doctrine that they adhered to.

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We know that they later on left the faith. So they weren't truly Christians to begin with. One of them even straight up became an atheist.

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I think it was the guy that wrote the lyrics. Oh, wow. So you have Oh Holy Night, It Is Well With My Soul. These are two songs that were written by men who were not

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Christians. So should we be singing them? It's a completely different issue, because you don't see out of these three guys, the two that wrote

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Oh Holy Night, the one who wrote It Is Well With My Soul. They don't have these extensive ministries that a person who loves these songs is going to go look that guy up and then find out he's a heretic and then fall into their heresy.

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Right. Very, very unlikely that's going to happen. Yeah. And they're not looking for money. Yeah. And those songs are also in the public domain.

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Right. So you're not paying for their use. But with Bethel, Jesus Culture, Hillsong, et cetera, you have these active ministries that exist that are very prevalent.

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They're huge. They're global phenomenons. Right. And people who hear those songs, who love them, that will hear them on the radio.

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They look them up. They buy their CDs. They start listening to the pastors and teachers that are connected with those ministry groups.

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And then they get roped into heresy. And my friends, I'm not even, you know, I'm not just creating a possible scenario.

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We get emails about this all the time. All the time. From folks who said my brother or sister was listening to the music.

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And then they started following Bill Johnson. Yes. Or into Hillsong and ended up following other teachers that may not have even been

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Brian Houston. But it was just other people that were connected with Hillsong. It's a dangerous thing to be flirting with this music in the kind of American capitalistic sort of a way that this music can be packaged and sold.

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Yeah. It's a dangerous thing to be investing in that and potentially exposing someone to the heretical, godless teachings that these churches are so affixed to.

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Yeah. I mean, just because it has the word church on it or Christian on it, just because it's on the label, it does not mean that it is biblically based.

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And I was like that. You know, I would turn on the TV and stop at like Joel Osteen before I was saved, mind you.

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And I would listen to it because I'm like, oh, it's church. I need to listen to this. Because, I mean, I grew up in the church.

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I just wasn't saved yet. But it was the kind of thing of,

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I don't know, like I could have easily been swayed by all of this. And especially with all the glitter and feathers and everything, because that's just fun.

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Oh, yeah. The stuff. Yeah. Talking about the tricks that Bethel will do, you know, dropping glitter from the ceiling and saying it's a glory cloud from the

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Holy Spirit or feathers that will appear and saying they're actual angel feathers. Yeah. This isn't something to like, you know, some sort of a stage trick that they do.

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They literally tell you that these are the feathers of angels that are falling on you.

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That this is the glory of God that has appeared in your midst. And plenty of other heretical things that they've done or taught, trying to raise the dead.

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Oh, yeah. If you look up some of the things that Bill Johnson has taught, I've done articles on it.

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But he's heretical in his beliefs on who Christ is, the incarnation of Christ, the

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Trinity. His definition of Trinity is heresy. It's not biblical. Anyway, so on.

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And then Hillsong is just, well, both Bethel and Hillsong, and then include

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Elevation in that, too. They're all inundated in prosperity theology. Yeah. Yeah.

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So, I mean, it's so easy to get wrapped up in that. And I was at one point. I was drawn into those exact same circles.

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And loved those songs and even wanted to be those guys on that stage singing that music.

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And it is by the grace of God that I was, thankfully, pulled out of those circles.

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Amen. Me, too. 2 Timothy 2, verse 15. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed.

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Accurately handling the word of truth. But avoid godless and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene.

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Ew. And that is what these heretical churches are doing, using their music as a vessel to get this false teaching out there.

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That's how awful it is. And get your dollars on top of that. Yeah. It is funding this heresy that they are spreading, the gangrene that they are spreading.

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Thank you for your question, Chris. I hope that that was helpful for you. We go on to this one from Dane.

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Hey, Pastor Gabe, your podcasts are beyond great, and I admire you greatly. Well, thank you.

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I am interested in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith and the difference between that and the

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Baptist Faith and Message 2000. I haven't read both all the way through, so I haven't done my own homework.

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But could you differentiate between the two? And Mrs. Becky, you are awesome, too. Aw, thanks.

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Thank you, and congratulations on the baby. Yay. Well, Dane, this is really one of those questions where I'm just going to have to tell you, you need to go read them both.

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Oh, yeah? Yeah. You need to go read the Baptist Faith and Message 2000, and you need to read the

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London Baptist Confession 1689. You just need to do your homework and do that for yourself.

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Yeah. Is there too much? It's a lot. It would be – I mean, we could go through it together here.

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Nitpicking. It's just a lot of work. Yeah. And he still has to go read it himself anyway. That's very true. Here's the biggest difference, the most major difference between these two confessions of faith.

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Okay. The London Baptist Confession of Faith is about 14 ,000 words. Okay. The Baptist Faith and Message 2000 is about 3 ,000 words.

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Oh, wow. So which one's going to be more particular in what they believe about certain doctrines from Scripture?

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We hope the 14 ,000 words. Yeah, right. That one's going to be more clear about here's what we believe about these subjects.

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And on top of that, the 1689 is something like 32 different articles.

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Okay. Whereas the Baptist Faith and Message 2000, I think, is 18. Oh, okay, yeah.

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So in just the number of subjects that are covered, the London Baptist Confession is more than twice as long.

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Well, I mean, as far as word count goes, it's definitely longer. As far as subjects covered, it's about twice as long.

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Yeah. But you have things like, for example, in the 1689, it says that God created the universe in six days.

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And I don't think the BFM 2000 does. The 1689 is also Sabbatarian. The 2000 is not.

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The 1689 is a reformed confession of faith, and the 2000 is not. A Baptist who adheres to the 1689 confession would not have many problems with the

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BFM 2000. But a person who adheres to the BFM 2000 probably does have a lot of problems with the 1689 confession.

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Yeah. It just narrows some things down, is really particular. I mean, you're talking about sovereignty of God issues, limited atonement.

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God's sovereign decree, his providence, free will of man, things like that. All of that is discussed in greater detail in the 1689 confession than it is in the

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BFM 2000. So, again, just encouraging you, Dane, you're going to have to go and read that for yourself.

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And you'll identify in your first read exactly what the differences are. Read the 17 ,000 words.

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Yep, that's right. This next one comes from Gene in Charlotte, North Carolina.

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Dear Pastor Gabe, this is a question I've already talked about with my pastor. Yay, good for you. So, see, I told you, that was coming.

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So, before you answer, know that conversation has already happened. All right. I would just like to get your take.

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A friend of mine at church said that Matthias was not the 12th apostle, but it was actually

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Paul who was the 12th apostle. And there are only 12 apostles.

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He says that the apostles in Acts 1 had done something God had not directed them to do.

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They chose a replacement for Judas before the Holy Spirit came, and they did it in an unusual way through casting lots.

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Jesus had not personally appointed Matthias to be an apostle, which was one of the requirements of an apostle.

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What are your thoughts? Was Matthias the 12th apostle, or was it Paul? Thank you for a great podcast.

25:33

All right. Let's go to Acts 1, and beginning in verse 15,

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Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers. A crowd of about 120 persons were there together. This was in the upper room after Jesus had ascended into heaven, but before the giving of the

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Holy Spirit. Peter said, Men, brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the

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Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested

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Jesus. For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry.

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Now this man acquired a field with the price of his unrighteousness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle of the field, and all of his intestines gushed out.

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That's awesome. Thanks, man. That's how Judas died. There you go. Hey, I'm just reading the

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Bible here. I know. And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem, so that in their own language, that field was called

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Hachaldamah, that is, field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his residence be made desolate, and let no one dwell in it, and let another man take his office.

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Peter goes on, verse 21. Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the

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Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning with the baptism of John until the day that he was taken up from us, one of these must come a witness with us of his resurrection.

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And they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justice, and Matthias.

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And they prayed and said, You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two you have chosen.

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Show us which one of these two you have chosen. To take the place of this ministry and apostleship from which

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Judas turned aside to go to his own place. In other words, he went to hell.

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Yeah. And they cast lots for them. In other words, they flipped a coin. Basically.

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In our modern vernacular. And the lot fell to Matthias, and he was added to the 11 apostles.

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So Gene is saying here, is that right? Because you get to Acts chapter 9, and Jesus appears to Paul and appoints him an apostle to the

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Gentiles. So is it rather that Paul was to really be the 12th apostle, and the disciples here in the upper room, they just jumped the gun.

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They went about doing it their own way instead of waiting for Christ to reveal who the next apostle was.

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What do you think? Me? Yeah. I don't know if we've ever talked about this before.

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I don't think we have, but I don't think they did it wrong just because the Bible doesn't state that they did it wrong.

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Correct. The Bible does not say that this was an illegitimate appointing of an apostle. Right. And it would have clearly stated that what they did was a sin.

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Because in all the other places where people are sinning, it clearly states they are at fault.

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That is a good take. That we don't have anything in Scripture that is telling us that they did anything wrong and Matthias was an illegitimate apostle.

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Furthermore, we have the apostle Paul himself not numbering himself among the 12.

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True. He refers to the 12 as another group of men that does not include him.

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So let's consider that. This is in 1 Corinthians chapter 15. Paul says the following. According to the

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Scriptures. And that he appeared to Cephas, then to the 12. Yep.

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There you go. He appeared to Cephas, then to the 12. The 12. Which did not include

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Paul. Not 11. But apparently included Matthias. Because again, the qualifications that Peter set forth were that this man who's taking

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Judas' spot had to have been present in Christ's ministry from the time he was baptized by John to the time that he was taken up from us.

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So Matthias was among them, though he had not yet been numbered among the 12. Right. So therefore, for Christ to appear to many who had witnessed his resurrection,

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Matthias would have been among them, though he may not have been numbered among the 12 at that time. Right. We know that he, by Christ choosing, based on what we read there in Acts 1, was among the 12, though they didn't know it yet.

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Mm -hmm. Verse 6. After that, Christ appeared to more than 500 brothers at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep.

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After that, he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Verse 8. And last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared to me also.

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For I am the least of the apostles, and not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

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Paul does not include himself among the 12. In fact, he regards himself as the least of the apostles.

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So the most conservative count for the number of apostles is 12 plus Paul. Right.

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So he would have been the 13th apostle, not numbered among the 12. There are others that can argue, well,

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Barnabas is called an apostle, and James is called an apostle.

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So we have at least two other guys called apostles. So maybe you could say 15. True. There's the 12 plus Barnabas, plus James, plus Paul.

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I still think the most conservative estimate is to say the 12 plus Paul. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's what the

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Bible gives us. Right. So that's good to go by. And don't go beyond what is written. That's right.

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As we talked about recently in our study of 1 Corinthians. Don't add to it and don't take away. We should do a video about this, though.

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Oh, yeah. I should do a what video on, is Paul the 12th apostle?

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Or is he numbered outside of the 12 as an apostle? I think

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I can do that in a minute and a half. I think you're very talented in that. Thank you.

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You're taking everything I just said. Yeah. We'll try to shrink it down to a minute and a half. All right.

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Let's pray. Yes, let's. Heavenly Father, we thank you for our time together, and we pray that you give us wisdom when we read your word, that we have discerning hearts.

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We may understand what you have said to us according to your word, and we may teach one another accordingly as well.

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We thank you for these who have asked questions of us today. I pray for Dane as he is exploring the

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Baptist faith and message and the London Baptist Confession of Faith, that you give him wisdom. I thank you for Chris and his question, and that you give him wisdom in understanding the kinds of songs, what it is that we sing when we're together in corporate worship.

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And I thank you for this question from Gene. Sounds like he's in good communication with his pastor and friends at his church.

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And I pray that even discussions like this with regard to how many apostles there were or whom

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Christ appointed, that we can discuss even the smaller things from Scripture to edify one another and grow one another in the knowledge of God according to your word.

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Give us this day our daily bread, providing for our physical needs and the bread of Christ that we receive when we open up your

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Bible and read it and apply it to our lives. It's in Jesus name we pray. Amen. Amen.