Cultish: Mike Rinder - Inside The Mind Prison of Scientology

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00:03

All right, welcome back ladies and gentlemen to cultish entering the kingdom of the cults. My name is Jeremiah Roberts I am one of the co -hosts here very very excited for this episode

00:14

Andrew you're how excited are you for this? I'm extremely excited today It's hailing in a

00:20

Riverton, Utah, and I was thinking maybe it's like a fair game tactic some Scientologists Maybe controlling the weather over here some matter and energy being controlled by some operating thetans

00:29

So we're getting ready to go that means we're doing something good Awesome. Well, I'm I'm really excited because we actually have on with us someone who's

00:38

We have both of us have a deep appreciation for was a huge really motivation for us to even launch our podcast

00:43

Back when Scientology the A &E show that won any awards was launched

00:48

Scientology the aftermath We are here with Mike Rinder. How are you doing? My friend? I'm terrific guys.

00:55

It's great to be with you today. Excellent. So just for anyone who doesn't know you I mean, I know you're making the media rounds and you're probably giving your just give the quick LinkedIn bio of who you are

01:05

And then we'll kind of go into just some questions we have about your book and we're looking for this conversation Okay, I was raised a

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Scientologist and joined what is called the C organization of Scientology like the inner core elite

01:20

Which is why the title of the book is a billion years because CEO members sign a contract or a billion years in dedicating their eternity in service of Scientology I Worked with L Ron Hubbard personally,

01:36

I rose up through the ranks and became the international spokesperson for Scientology and was on the international board of the

01:45

Church of Scientology international and I Worked directly for the current head of Scientology David Miscavige for many years

01:57

I escaped in 2007 Started a new life

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Literally, I escaped with nothing just a briefcase and that was it. No money.

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No No way to go. No job. No family nothing and Subsequently have become one of the more prominent whistleblowers about the abuses in Scientology.

02:22

I Helped with a very seminal Series that was done in the st

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Petersburg Times called the truth rundown and then Larry writes book and the film that was made by Alex Gibney going clear and then teamed up with Leah Remini and did three seasons on a and e of Leah Remini Scientology in the aftermath and now we do a podcast and I have just written a book

02:51

Yes Definitely. How would you describe? for anyone because we're talking about Scientology this is part something that was part of your life

02:59

You're very outspoken passionate about exposing the abuses if you're looking like a church creed like the

03:05

Apostolic Creed or the Nicene Creed There's which establishes their doctrine How would you give a cliff -notes version to explain to our audience just in case they're living under a rock and don't doesn't know what?

03:14

Scientology is how would you briefly kind of explain the fundamental tenets of? What they believe doctrinally?

03:21

Well what they believe doctrinally is always difficult to describe and Scientologists can't do it

03:31

Scientology believes that man is a spiritual being who has a mind and a body the spirit is senior to the mind and the body and that through the teachings or writings or discoveries or Technology as Hubbard liked to refer to it of L.

03:53

Ron Hubbard One can attain spiritual salvation and freedom by rising up these levels that Hubbard Invented that he calls the bridge to total freedom and that that will restore you to your

04:16

Original spiritual being powers, which are unlimited and And godlike that you become and can become through Scientology a

04:33

What's called an operating? Payton Payton is the word that Scientology uses to sorry about that Payton is the the word that Scientology uses to describe or as As a spirit that you can become an operating

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Payton or an operating spirit who has vast powers to operate outside your body to control

04:59

What's called the the mess universe matter energy space and time and that you can transcend all of these?

05:07

Things as long as you pay enough money Okay, Andrew just real quickly before we jump into the book

05:13

What would you have any just quick questions just about anything that Mike said in regards to just kind of like the general? doctrine and beliefs of Scientology Yeah, I've always wondered with regards to almost like the manipulation of matter energy space and time

05:28

Mike Did you ever see any like practices of people trying to do some type of manipulation of matter around them?

05:35

Or was it more of manipulating of people and emotions versus trying to actually?

05:41

You know do occultic practices in a sense. Yeah, you know it

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That's all bullshit. That's that but just as you know, that's just made -up stuff and the manipulation and the control is of the minds of people not the

06:01

Not, you know making their pens levitate off the desk. Mm -hmm This episode of the podcast is brought to you by higher bond comm

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07:03

Enjoy the podcast. Okay, and so I appreciate that and a question. Um, what do you so you've been around, you know

07:11

Very outspoken against the Church of Scientology 2015 is the first time that I saw you when I watched the documentary

07:17

Lawrence writes going clear I also read the book definitely an excellent book But all these years now is 2022 and you what made what motivates you to write the book now

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Versus previously like why now write the book? well A Lot of people had asked me to write a book for a long time and I found it a rather daunting task frankly

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But then coven hit and I didn't have anything to do. We couldn't shoot

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TV shows We couldn't do anything and I was sitting around and my wife kept saying to me you better start writing you better start writing you better start writing and I started out by writing like a

07:58

Not writing by sort of listing a chronological track of my

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Experiences in life and the most significant things to me as a kind of a skeleton to form

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And flesh out for a book. I then spoke to Larry Wright and Larry Wright over the years became

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Almost a spirit not a spiritual almost like a like a

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Word is to describe it but someone that I really looked up to his success his intelligence his determination to get to the bottom of things his you know

08:48

Care and he's just a tremendously nice guy and I called him up and I said

08:53

Larry All these people keep asking me to write a book. My wife is nagging me to write a book.

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What's your best advice? And he said my best advice to you is to write something that is meaningful to you

09:09

Then the audience will come the the meaningfulness is if you imbue that Into your book you will succeed and he said just knowing you he said what do you think?

09:21

My what I consider my best book is I said, I don't know looming tower

09:27

Going to clear like I started rattling. Oh, yeah pull -ups of prize -winning

09:32

Number one New York Times double what that's not. Nope. It's a book. I wrote a concerning letters

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I had written to my parents Because that was what was meaningful to me and he said knowing you

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I think you should write a book Addressed to your children that are still in Scientology.

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I went Okay, that makes sense to me that gate that sort of motivated me and like I want them to know whether I'm Dead or alive when they eventually read it.

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I want them to know what my life was actually like what the thought processes that I went through were what the

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My my Sadness at the fact that I brought them into a world that where they have no choice and That is why the book exists today rather than five years ago or five years from now

10:36

Yeah, no, thank you Mike and just just on a personal level like one of maybe you call it like Imprinting, you know you when you all of a sudden you see someone and you probably had a lot of people who've messaged you about certain

10:47

Parts of the show or your book even probably now your book and how it's affected them Even some somebody who's been in a religious abusive environment

10:56

Different than Scientology like you did. Oh, yeah. Yeah You like you did the series at the end of season three on With with Leah on Jehovah's Witnesses you were dealing with people like Lloyd Evans Which I thought was really excellent showing just the real travesty of like, you know, people seem experiencing disfellowship being similar disconnection

11:15

Um, I think it is really for me It was that moment is right around the first season of episode 5 you were talking with a lady on the couch and she was talking about that's all that I've been thinking of and I can't describe it because I'll probably start welling out because that but it was like What I admired so much about you

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Mike was like you could have had that edited out Like some people would like if I did that I probably would have edited it out

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But like you were so vulnerable to show that so like it goes to show what you're saying and the passion you have to have

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Us be to your kids like there's so much gravitas that comes with that Well, Jeremiah, I gotta tell you that episode was with my very dear friend

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Mary Tom and her husband David and they like to this day they remain like that's who

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I will be spending Thanksgiving with I'm Honest to be completely honest with you.

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Leah and I sort of said no we want that taken out We don't want to look weak

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We don't want and the network executive at A &E who became our guardian angel and is also now a very dear friend

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Devin Graham Hammonds said Absolutely that has to stay in I am absolutely certain that that has to stay and it's a really important moment and I said, okay

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Devin, you know, you're the boss You know this way like that was the first season

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I'm like, I knew nothing about making TV shows other than just my sort of experience with going clear

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But I didn't really know anything about you know, making a commercial TV show for a network and all that sort of stuff

12:56

Devin if you and the other people at A &E are absolutely convinced that this needs to stay and I trust you and I am very glad that I did because that moment

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Impacted a lot of people It it's one of the things of all like there's 37 episodes of that show

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And the one that gets brought up the most and the moment that gets brought up the most is that one?

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so Yeah, I you know, I'm I'm with you. That was my first inclination who wants to see me breaking down Looking yeah like a child yeah, but you know it is that is what happened what it's not like it was a scripted it, you know planned breakdown or something it's just when

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Mary was talking about that and her son and How she had done everything in her life to try and save that Relationship and that was what her entire life was about was her the children and then it's gone

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That was heartbreaking now I also have to tell you Jeremiah that I am quite the

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The softy when it comes to these things because there is a lot of moments in that show including the

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Jehovah's Witness one Where the like some of those stories in that show are so heartbreaking

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I was sitting there like I'm able to talk luckily I didn't need to but I was definitely choked up and had tears running down my cheeks just listening to the tragic

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Destruction of families that occurred and the experiences of those people and You know, it was just like oh my god, and that happened more often than Then once yeah

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Yeah, what was your biggest takeaway from when you did this special on Jehovah's Witnesses with Leah?

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What was your biggest takeaway from that and like what kind of what? Connection did you see with Scientology like looking all these years back for when it was filmed?

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well, there there are massive Similarities between Jehovah's Witnesses and Scientology not just in the disconnection disfellowshipping, but also in the control of information and the control of The thinking of the people within that bubble and particularly when you're raised in that environment and hearing the stories of What life was like being raised in a family that that were true believers

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And the scare tactics of what terrible things are going to happen to you if you don't

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Sort of follow the path that we have dictated that you must follow That stuff is not just Jehovah's Witnesses not just Scientology It's also

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NXIVM like I've become so I've become very friendly with Sarah Edmondson and Mark Vicente from the bow and I watched the bow now and I go.

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Oh my god. Keith Ranieri just copied Scientology He's just like a complete copycat.

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And then I watched a whole bunch of other documentaries, you know the way down one. Oh, yeah evangelical weight loss lady in Wherever that was lots of lots of aquanet.

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There's some crazy hair Yeah, that hair is like that hair was astonishing and I I see similarities in all of these

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Organizations and of course, I talked to Chris Shelton and Steve Hassan and a lot of other experts on the subject

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Rachel Bernstein and Yonja Lalich and all these people and they all have

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A similar sort of perspective that while there are differences in the details the similarities in the big picture between these organizations are pretty remarkable and pretty documentable

17:22

Yeah. Hey Mike With regards to your book of a billion years What you're kind of talking about is almost the mind prison, right to use one of your terms in the book that all of these

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Colts essentially create for their followers. I think you paint a really good Illustration with regards also to your vulnerability

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You you paint this illustrations that your children Taryn and Benjamin can kind of understand what this mind prison is for our listeners

17:45

Can you describe that illustration that you make because I think it's a very Tangible way for our audience to understand what it's like being within that mind prison, right?

17:54

I describe it Andrew. I try to come up with this analogy that I thought okay let's take this outside the world of Scientology and analogize it to something and I I Describe being born into a house

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With a wall around it Told a high wall and that the people inside the house believe that everything outside of that wall is

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Evil and is intent on on their destruction and killing them and that this house inside the wall is the most magnificent a perfect environment that doesn't exist anywhere else on earth and that it's it's very difficult when you have been raised and grow up in a house like that to believe that The best course of action for you would be to jump over that wall or try and scale that wall

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Or break through that wall in some way because the the downsides that you have been

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Forewarned about on the other side are horrendous They are it is death and destruction pain and agony for all eternity should you breach that wall and Not ever having seen

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Outside the wall it is very easy for someone to believe that that is

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What is out there and I try and describe to my my son and daughter

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Look, I did jump over the wall. The other side ain't bad.

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In fact in many respects It's much better and I say at the beginning of the book that this book is an effort like since I got over The wall,

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I've been trying to shout back into the house saying it's not so bad in there

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It's not it's just not bad out here. What you've been told isn't true. It's not bad. It's it's all okay

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You can you can walk out there you can walk back to if you want but you can come out and that I've been throwing rocks over the wall with notes on them and dropping things from planes and Use and that this book is another effort to get the message inside the wall

20:13

Hmm No, I appreciate you sharing that and in the book you kind of talk about like you're how you got into Scientology at a young age and prior to you getting into Scientology.

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What what sort of religious background did you have none? I mean I got into Scientology when

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I was five or six and my parents were not religious Are they I don't ever remember going to any church or Sunday school or anything just okay?

20:41

Yeah, and what was like that process like I mean you you talked about you know in your younger years eventually got into the sea

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Or just that what was some of the initial transitions and in that time? I mean this is pretty much what you grew up knowing

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Were there any times where it was kind of that question mark the exclamation point kind of goes above your head like wait a minute

20:59

I have something that's kind of weird here is you just kind of just go along to get along What was that earlier years like for you like because you do talk about in your book?

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well the early years are There was no doubt in my mind.

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It was Okay, my parents get into Scientology and one of the things about Scientology is the

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Elron Hubbard has the answers to everything and I talk in the book about learning at an early age to figure out how to deal with situations in life or problems or things that come up by Doing what wrong says and that's a phrase that is used a lot in Scientology and by Scientologists meaning

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Find out what Hubbard had to say about this because he's got answers to everything and if you find out what he has to say it'll tell you how to go about doing what or solving the problem or whatever it is that is going on in your life and You know,

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I give examples in the book of the first things that were Somewhat innocuous that my mother would start, you know using these little pieces of Scientology and then

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Sending me into the local Scientology organization where I had a bunch of other friends that I hung out with and we were sort of the

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Scientology kids even though nobody else knew we was involved in Scientology at all because at that time it was a sort of a dangerous thing, but even the danger of being

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Involved in Scientology as a child because there was an inquiry in Victoria Australia in the early 60s that banned result in Scientology being banned in that state and then other actions being taken in other states, which

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I lived in Adelaide at the time But that that fear that the government was engaged in a conspiratorial campaign to destroy

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Scientology Was something that was ingrained in me from a very early age and something that you see how they're talking about Constantly and subsequently

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That was an experience that I had that I went. Oh, yeah runs right about that He's exactly right the government's out to try and destroy

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Scientology because it's the only hope for mankind and blah blah blah blah. So The early years of my life were very much.

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Oh You know, I'm a Scientologist I don't admit it to anyone because it's not safe to do so But it works for me and my family and you know, there were advantages to it

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We went to England twice when I was a teenager and that was like a big

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Upside sailing across the world on a cruise ship and seeing the world and going and living in England Then when

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I joined the Sea Organization, which was sort of a pre -ordained Path for me,

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I you know raised in Scientology the greatest Accomplishment that you can have would is to go work with Elron Hubbard and That's what

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I did and I guess the real big first shock for me was arriving on Hubbard's yacht

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Which was an old cattle ferry in Lisbon Portugal to join him and the other most dedicated

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Members of the Sea Organization the ultimate pinnacle of Scientology accomplishments and finding out that the place was a dirty smelly shithole and that I was a commodity that Had no say in what was happening to me and my life but now being stuck somewhere with you know, no way out and Also the sort of stigma of You know,

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I've arrived at the pinnacle of Scientology I can't walk away from this because I don't like the smell of where I'm sleeping and I go into some detail at that particular moment about the thoughts that were going through my head and those thoughts and the rationale and justification for why

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You put up with stuff that like I look back now and go boy,

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I really was just brainwashed to put up with that shit, but it that that reinforced

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You know Ideas that everybody else around you has

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That this is the way things should be and if they don't see something they're not complaining

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Why would you be complaining and all of these ideas that are inculcated in Scientology?

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That if something is bad around you or bad happening to you, it's your fault all of those things played very heavily on my

26:33

Failure to Escape Yeah, no, thank you

26:39

Michael Andrews real quickly, um, you may like something you said actually made me kind of skip ahead We were gonna talk about fair game

26:45

I memorized how that post about the guy who wrote the response a billion lies by by Ryan Prescott Definitely pulled surprise material.

26:54

We'll jump into in a second But um, I was trying to find it somehow

27:00

I misplaced that I wanted to show you it's so over -the -top we'll jump into that but I'm just question real quick is because you mentioned the

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Victoria magazine article and You know Scientology saw depicted they have this notorious fair game policy with the enemies of Scientology You depict a lot of the people who are you know, media conglomerates who are writing articles and pieces investigative journalism

27:20

But Andrew and I we're both Christians were there. Are you aware of any? churches

27:25

Christian ministries that were Outspoken against Scientology because I know as you talk about in your documentary as part of it was

27:31

Looking to people who are critical of Scientology. Is that something that was involved on top of the regular media outlets?

27:38

You talk about in your book There hasn't been any there there was sort of a problem honestly

27:47

Jeremiah with with the mainstream

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Christian organizations Getting on board with respect to you know doing something about Scientology and that is

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And there is one massive exception that I mentioned in the book that we talked to on the aftermath

28:10

Which is Pastor Willie Rice of Calvary Baptist Church in Clearwater, which is the biggest

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Southern Baptist Church in Pinellas County and maybe even in the

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Tampa Bay area and he is a Magnificently outspoken critic of Scientology and has been and has been supportive of Leah and me and everybody who has ever who has ever said anything, but there is a problem with what

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I call the religious right which is that the the idea that the

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First Amendment protection of religious belief and practice must be upheld at all costs is

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Seen by many of these organizations and and their lawyers in particular as We have to be careful on the edges because the edges form the slippery slope if Scientology goes down because They have haven't been able to use the protections of the

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First Amendment to shield their activities the next will be the big -time evangelicals that make huge amounts of money and live in mansions and and lie in the

29:35

G6's and then ultimately it will erode and come for us and This is this is very

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Problematic from my perspective. I've written about it on my blog a number of times that conservative judges tend to Tend to be very very bad for those seeking legal recourse with respect to Scientology Scientology has played this game of you know making people sign contracts and Requiring that they go to religious arbitration which actually there is no such thing but and that courts have sided with Scientology on that at least conservatively

30:21

Conservative judges have sided with Scientology Worrying that if they erode that Scientology then they're going to be eroding freedoms for other more mainstream religions.

30:33

So No, there hasn't been a whole and honestly, it's kind of crazy because Scientology is actually anti -christian like anti not just they're

30:46

They're agnostic about it. Hubbard said that you know Christ on the step in Christ on a cross was just a figment of the implants done by Psychiatry 75 million years ago and it's used to control people and the

31:02

Catholic Church is evil and they're the biggest source of evil on the planet outside of psychiatry and you know a lot of stuff he even created in the 1950s a

31:15

Quote church called the Church of American science which had as its purpose to Pretend to people that they were sort of like a

31:28

Christian organization to get them in and then Explain to them that there was something very wrong with Christianity and move them over to Scientology It was like a front group with with an actual actual plan of how to go about doing this because Christianity was so bad.

31:49

So this Scientology is anti -christian despite their

31:55

PR crap that they try and go out and Hang out with other religious leaders just to give them some credibility it's it's like Scientology is is

32:09

Duplicitous in its presentation to the world versus what it actually believes and This is one of my big issues with with Scientology is hey if you're gonna be if you're going to be

32:27

Homophobic or Anti -gay at least say you are don't pretend that you're not and then do it behind behind closed doors

32:35

If you're going to be pro abortion, don't pretend that you're not and claim that you're you know pro -life

32:43

It's like this is Scientology sort of 101 that there is a

32:49

Presentation to the world of this is what we are and who we are and the reality is very different.

32:56

Mm -hmm No, that's good. I really agree with a lot of the sentiment there We um, I don't know if you are familiar with Walter Martin He wrote the book the kingdom of the

33:04

Colts, but he actually quotes this man named JK van Balen He says that the Colts are the unpaid debts of the church

33:10

So one of the reasons why we actually have our podcast as Christians is we want to preach the truth of the gospel to the

33:15

People that are in the Colts or have a ministry to help them get out of the Colts and into Christ Like that's the main focus of our podcast at least so I agree with those sentiments on so many different levels bringing it back just a little bit because I want to go back into your book and some of Before you get onto the

33:32

Apollo right before you get onto that boat. You said some things where you're talking about You you didn't really question it too much because there was things that happened into your life

33:42

That led you into these circumstances like the the mind prison wall had been slowly building and it was up high enough to this chance

33:48

Too at this point to where you weren't looking over in a sense you you were in it This is still the golden capsule

33:54

This is where you're gonna work for L Ron Hubbard directly work up the ranks and do whatever you have to do

33:59

But before that I want to go back to your childhood because I think this is a so interesting back in Adelaide When you were six you talked about children's communication courses that were being done

34:09

And this is type of like the wall that is being built in your mind prison Can you explain to our listeners what those courses include with the bull baiting and the techniques or technology?

34:19

Shall I say that they were having you do at six years old? This was this was mind -blowing to me to be honest.

34:25

I was like six years old Children doing this. Can you explain that? Yeah There the idea that children are

34:40

But the idea in Scientology is that children are old spirits in young bodies that they too that they just have limitations because their body size not because they're they're

34:55

You know young and unformed. It's sort of a strange concept, but the

35:03

Hubbard developed this thing that he called auditing which is

35:09

Scientology one -on -one counsel and In order to train auditors to do things the way that he wanted them to do

35:18

He developed these things that he called training routines or in Scientology they're shorthanded and called

35:25

TRs training routine and These are things that are supposed to teach

35:30

The counselor how to deal with the person that they are counseling, but it is also

35:39

Hubbard's contention that this is the technology of how you communicate effectively that if you are able to To do these training routines it will teach you how to communicate not just as an auditor in an auditing session

35:57

But in life and with your family and with in relationships So it's a very important thing and is given great

36:08

Prominence in Scientology training routines and people who first come into Scientology are often put on to these training routines as a way of indoctrinating them into some fundamental

36:23

Scientology concepts. So the first step is if you want to communicate to someone you have to be able to Look at them.

36:32

You have to be able to sit comfortably Across from them and simply stare at them.

36:37

And this is where the idea that stare Scientologist stare comes from it and it's valid, you know

36:45

Scientologists have to sit and literally three feet across from another person sit and stare them in the eyes and if you blink or if you smile or if you laugh or if you cringe or whatever you're told plunk and Start over and you keep going and this can go on for hours and hours and hours and once you are able to sit comfortably and Sit across from someone and just look at them comfortably then it goes into bullbaiting which

37:20

Andrew mentioned and bull baiting is The idea that the now one person is sitting there trying to look at the other one and the other one is trying to Distract him.

37:33

The other one is trying to prevent him from maintaining a You know not cracking up not cringing not reacting in any way shape or form

37:43

And you're sort of able to do anything you want. You can tell jokes you can you know

37:48

You can't punch or slap but you you're not supposed to touch but you can you can use

37:55

Facial expressions you can you can jump up and down you can anything you want and and as a kid this was great fun because we got to Say things and do things that might otherwise have been unacceptable

38:11

And use language that might otherwise have been unacceptable that we'd heard from others

38:16

But what's supposed to use that sort of stuff? But this is and Leah and I have talked about this on our podcast quite a bit

38:26

This is actually a way of grooming people grooming people for sexual abuse subsequently in life because oftentimes what happens is

38:40

If there is a girl or a young woman or a woman who is undergoing this and there is a man on the other side of that the man will start on sex talk and Implication and the the idea is you don't react to anything.

39:03

So this abusive What would be very very offensive things in you know in anybody's workplace go on in these

39:16

TR bull bait sessions and people are literally trained not to react to them and so this is a terrible process of grooming children and young adults to accept

39:35

The most Outrageous things being said to them and not to react in any way

39:41

Wow No, that's that's that's really heavy. And again, that's why if anyone hasn't watched it

39:47

I would say just watch all three seasons. It was it was just on Netflix. I think it just came off a

39:53

Netflix Um, yeah, but but yeah, it's definitely I would say check out the show because it explains a lot of this stuff for sure moving forward

40:00

L Ron Hubbard you talk about your time on the Apollo The movie the master was still at me miss

40:06

Philip Seymour Hoffman How that's kind of like a weird non Scientology movie

40:12

Like how how is that in comparison to like what actually like took place because a lot of times people will try and have ideas

40:18

You know, even in your world is very easy to sensationalize something and Hollywood there. They're there to make a production, right

40:26

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna disappoint you terribly Jeremiah never watched you didn't oh

40:32

I thought you would have gone through and I was here I was watching here or later on your book when you left and You you and when you left

40:38

Scientology you've been through all those movies like all the master had to be one of them Anyways, I don't need anybody to give me their

40:46

Their version of what I'll run the hubble was like I got my own. Oh, yeah. Well just just a little bit Yeah, take us into that world of like life on the

40:54

Apollo real quickly for our audience Well life on the Apollo is one thing my experiences with Hubbard like in in Very up close and personal actually came subsequently in La Quinta in Southern, California Which is where he was operating out of in the the late 1970s and I went there and there was a small handful of people that were there with him and that was where I Was with him like 24 hours a day as what's known as a commodore's messenger

41:30

Someone that that is sort of his I don't know like sons,

41:37

I guess Hubbard was a master storyteller he is

41:46

Capable of telling a story about anything and everything and frankly, he did tell stories about anything and everything and he

41:58

You know, it's sort of an interesting arc that I have with respect to Hubbard because when

42:05

I escaped Scientology or escape the seed organization, I Still believed in Scientology.

42:12

I still believed in L. Ron Hubbard. He had convinced me

42:18

Along with that everybody else that's a Scientologist that he came up with the answers to things that nobody else in history has ever come up with and it wasn't until some years after escaping that I the distance from that world of Scientology and that that mind prison of Scientology had let in enough light that I was able to start looking at Hubbard and a very seminal book for me was

42:56

Russell Miller's unauthorized biography of Hubbard's Old Fair -Faced

43:01

Messiah and that book really sort of shook my world as far as L.

43:10

Ron Hubbard went because Russell Miller is a like Larry Wright Incredibly detailed researcher and has a bibliography notes and sources for everything and had done

43:27

And a huge amount of work to document the life of L. Ron Hubbard and what

43:32

I learned from that book Was that from a very very early age

43:39

Hubbard told stories about himself About his experiences

43:44

Then he told stories to make a living as a Pulp Fiction writer then he started inventing things to create a

43:56

Create Dianetics and then subsequently Scientology with all sorts of claims about his

44:03

Research and how he had discovered this and discovered that Bullshit he just made he took a lot of things and he

44:13

He sort of distilled them or modified them or turn them into something.

44:18

That sounds really amazing and he he built a

44:26

Empire out of now the stories that he told that supposedly the foundational

44:36

Scripture of Scientology and that's what Scientology is

44:41

Scientology is the the result of the Storytelling abilities of L.

44:47

Ron Hubbard. It's just interesting to me the similarities

44:54

Mike when you're talking about L. Ron Hubbard and then I think of Joseph Smith from Mormonism.

45:01

He was also an amazing Storyteller and there's fingerprints all over the Book of Mormon to show that the

45:07

Book of Mormon is not a divine book But like you're saying with L. Ron Hubbard There's fingerprints essentially in these stories and the storytelling and Dianetics and technologies that he's inventing that he's taking things from things that are going on around in his life

45:19

Which I find extremely fascinating and you talked about how even when you left the

45:25

Sea Org you were still Essentially a Scientologist in mind. Did you find that it was kind of like your identity had been replaced?

45:33

It's such a young age to think not like you are L Ron Hubbard because I would assume that L.

45:39

Ron Hubbard doesn't think like anybody within the Sea Org he wants them to think a Specific way, but that you were pretty much like a product of someone who thought well

45:47

What would Ronald Hubbard do in all of these situations like your identity was now the technologies?

45:53

So like over in your life, you had to like reverse engineer somehow these technologies that you had been

46:00

Trained in to try to find out who Mike was again That's something that is a as an astonishingly accurate

46:09

Accurate glimpse that I never really have thought about that way, but I think that that's very true

46:16

I mean I say a number of times in the book, you know for the first time when

46:21

I escaped the Sea Org for the first time in my life, I didn't have a a

46:28

Set of rules and restrictions and regulations and this is what you must do now and this is how you must think about this and this is how you must think about that and that was both incredibly freeing and also very scary because It took a long time and I'm not sure that I've even reached that point yet to figure out

46:55

What is it? That is My perspective and what is it? that is this perspective on things that I was taught to have as a perspective on things like For a long time

47:08

I would stop and and me and my wife who's also a former Sea Org member would stop and go

47:14

Wait a minute Did we just say something that is based on?

47:20

What we were told we were supposed to believe or we were supposed to think about that way or is that what we really think and we we would do that routinely and I Guess as time has gone by that's become less and less as I have figured out and understood

47:42

What it was that was, you know hammered into me to look at this way or that way and but it it is

47:53

This is not a process that happens with the snap of your fingers the snap of your fingers is

48:02

Jumping over the wall That is a snap of the fingers. There was a moment that happens with everybody where they finally go.

48:11

I've had enough I'm done. Nothing could be worse than this. I'm over the wall, but when you get over the wall figuring out where you're going and how to get there and Not turn around and reverse yourself back inside the wall again by Accident or by habit or by routine.

48:33

It is not so easy it is a real process to get through that and Come to terms with yourself and come to terms with your interaction with the rest of the world without the crutch of What is wrong to say, you know,

48:51

I believe that a lot of people stay in the Scientology because it's easy Like it's very difficult in some respects and in other respects.

49:00

It's really easy. You are told exactly What you should think exactly how you should react to everything exactly what's expected

49:09

What's right? What's wrong? It's all laid out and you don't have to make any decisions really other than I'm gonna be a good

49:18

Scientologist and if I'm a good Scientologist, I know exactly what it is that I'm supposed to do next

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50:02

David Miscavige that is a name that comes to mind for anyone who's followed your story and what you put forth about him

50:11

What I really noticed Mike in your book is that it's not just a book about you and you can tell me about this

50:17

It felt like I was sort of watching a linear timeline almost like a true crime story But from somebody else's perspective somebody else's vantage point me like a third person or breaking the fourth wall

50:29

Like how would you describe in just a couple of paragraphs? How would you describe

50:34

David Miscavige? I mean he said I'm just I've said I have a couple questions about him. How would you describe him?

50:41

I'm sociopath malignant narcissist someone who

50:48

Is primary Motivation in life is what is good for David Miscavige?

50:55

like I loved last night when I was watching The Vowel with my wife and I Forget who it was a

51:03

Lauren Saltzman. I think I'm not sure if you're familiar with that whole show, but he was one of the disciples of Keith Ranieri and she said you know and she had a relationship with him for many years like many other women and He insisted that she be faithful to him.

51:22

But meanwhile, he had like 20 wives or whatever. So she says

51:28

I Believed that and I knew

51:33

I loved he It was a shock to me to find out that Keith Didn't love me.

51:45

He only loved he and That's a bit of a paraphrase but and she put it actually more eloquently

51:54

I thought wow that is a state Oh, that's a one -sentence statement that sums up what a malignant narcissist or a sociopath is

52:03

They persuade people to be loyal to them. They persuade them to sacrifice themselves for them

52:11

They persuade people to do things that are against their better nature and certainly not in their best interest in order to support and and prop them up and Yet the only thing that is important to them in the end is themselves and what's good for them

52:30

So what is good for David Miscavige is What is good for Scientology what is good for David Miscavige is what is good for every

52:40

Scientologist what is good for David Miscavige is the only thing that matters and That is very similar to L Ron Hubbard and Probably very similar to everybody who has been a cult leader ever in the past or in the future

52:57

That what is good for the cult leader is the only thing that is actually important and somehow everybody is persuaded that their sacrifices and their loyalty and their blood -sweat -and -tears and their devotion and etc is going to be reciprocated somehow and And The ultimate the ultimate kicker of all of these things is it never is.

53:28

Yeah And in the Ted Koppel interview that that was miscavige is only public appearance

53:33

You were behind the scenes and if I'm not mistaken Koppel in the interview stated that that time that miscavige was 31 years old, right?

53:44

I Think that I think that you remember I was in 1993 right, right and that's why

53:53

I want to make I think that makes him I think was born in 1960 or 61 Okay, 32 or something like yeah the reason why

54:00

I asked is because I was trying to put two and two together because Ted Koppel in the Interview when

54:05

I was watching he said, oh well miscavige This is his first public interview since he took over the search of Scientology ten years ago

54:12

Which means he would been around 21 when he took over Yeah, that's like who does we think about what

54:20

I was doing at 21. I didn't take over a major world religion Well, I would dispute whether it's a major world religion, right?

54:29

Organization with billions of dollars exactly. Yeah. Yeah women say Hey, I like I said,

54:36

David miscavige had had designs on rising up the ranks you know

54:43

He will have scratched and clawed beat and kicked his way to the top and has not relinquished power ever since and you know, you gotta you gotta give some credit where credit is due because he was a a

55:03

You know, he came out of nowhere he was a nobody he wasn't one of the The people who had been with Hubbard from the early years of Scientology or even the early years of the

55:14

C organization he just showed up and and made himself

55:23

Indispensable in some fashion and ultimately Maneuvered himself into a position where he was able to take over despite the fact that the logical

55:34

Heirs to the Hubbard Empire Were not him Yeah, I mean that that makes sense because did you watch all of the vow yet Mike?

55:44

Yes Well, yes all the way to the episode that was on yesterday, which is the last one that's available

55:50

Gotcha. Okay. So with regards to a nexium in the enter enterprise success program that is offered in with David miscavige

55:58

It seems like you know Scientology or nexium. It's like this pyramid scheme in a sense It seems like David was able to get out of the pyramid in order to get to the top of the pyramid because the pyramids

56:08

Designed that you never get to the top of it. So how how can someone do that?

56:13

Essentially because like the enterprise success program kind of like L Ron Hubbard with the philosophies is to find someone's ruin, right?

56:20

Whether it be like you say in your book anger insecurities management problems and then to tell them that through Scientology They can be cured from those ailments.

56:28

Although they never reach the top of the pyramid just like in nexium They do the same thing. They find that ruin then it's the

56:34

ESP program. That is to help them how how do you think David managed a way if you can just speculate to to get out of replacing his own individuality in group think and retain some form of Progress to the top of the pyramid

56:51

Well, I don't know that I can answer this very very simplistically

56:56

Andrew I tried to Lay this out as best I could in the book and it's probably the only time that this this has been described the the rise of David Miscavige in Scientology to take over from L Ron Hubbard and how he eliminated all potential

57:17

Threats to his ability to do that He certainly couldn't have done it when

57:22

L Ron Hubbard was still around I think that the difference is once you lose the the dictator of an

57:31

Organization like that a pyramid scheme, whatever you want to call it a hierarchical structured money -making business

57:40

However, you whatever you call it What's the top guy and particularly when the top guy is the guy who?

57:49

Sort of set the the tone and standards and everything about the entire organization these entire time once that guy's gone there is a vacuum and if you can kick claw maneuver

58:08

Strategize your way to figuring out how to be the one that fills that vacuum you're going to end up being the guy who runs the show and Miscavige the two people who ultimately were more

58:25

What were in the position who should have taken over which was? Pat and Annie Broca Which were the two people that were with hubbard when he was hiding in his bluebird motorhome

58:37

Traveling around in California scared of being subpoenaed those two people but cause of the the sort of Remoteness and the out -of -touchness that they had

58:52

By necessity because they were with hubbard They had a huge disadvantage that miscavige took advantage of and miscavige knew

59:01

He could control all the lawyers for Scientology He controlled where the bank accounts were he controlled the the people within the sea or the top of the sea organization so he had

59:14

He sort of marshaled his resources and Deployed them in a fashion to make sure that he was the one that took over Another question

59:27

I have to when it comes to one When you let so yeah, you left the Church of Scientology and this is just a group thing

59:34

I'm kind of jumping ahead a little bit to a mic is um, I thought about this is your first job vocation

59:42

Post Scientology was a used car salesman and New and used okay

59:48

There is there is a stigma though that sometimes comes with like a used car salesman and I was just genuinely curious

59:54

Was there any anything like in Scientology that maybe was like helpful and you because you said you did really well

01:00:02

But also was there any part of it where it was like, oh my gosh I'm I'm selling like a Scientologist like I'm unthinking in this process like because someone's sitting across I have to think

01:00:11

Someone's sitting across from you. You're selling them a car There's got to be something that like flashes back to say this

01:00:18

It's kind of like a weird like odd It is anything like auditing come to mind where you're trying to sell them to go up the bridge

01:00:24

I'm just just that just popped up when I read the book honestly, I Never I never sold

01:00:32

Scientology to anybody I sold it on a big scale as a public relations person

01:00:37

But I didn't try and get down and get people to write a check to me. It never happened.

01:00:42

I've never ever Done in Scientology what's called registration, which is taking people's money, but the thing that was most beneficial to me about My experiences in Scientology when

01:00:57

I became a car salesman was my worker. I Was used to working seven days a week 16 18 hours a day

01:01:08

When I went and started working at this car dealership That you know, they worked five days a week.

01:01:15

Some of them were six. I've worked seven It was like no big deal. I you know arriving at 9 and leaving at 8 o 'clock at night

01:01:23

It was no big deal to me. It was like, oh, I'm living the life of luxury Everybody else if they were staying on the late shift until 8 p .m.

01:01:32

They started at 1 p .m Or if they started at 9 they left at 5 I just came in at 9 o 'clock and worked until 8 o 'clock every night.

01:01:41

So I was doing more work than anybody, you know

01:01:47

There's a there's an adage in car sales You know the number of people you talk to is equal to the number of sales that you make if you if you literally talk to more people you're gonna make more sales and You know,

01:02:05

I guess I always sort of imagine myself as fairly good

01:02:15

Communicator with people and had a and I've got to tell you another thing that really made me successful Believe it or not my accent people like to talk to Someone that sounds different and is a bit sort of a bit sort of exotic and oh, yeah

01:02:38

I want to talk to the Australian guy. I want to talk to the guy with a weird accent Oh, we came in here and he said something to us and we come back here because we want to see him again, you know that Bizarrely, maybe not even it's not even really bizarre.

01:02:53

But that was a factor that helped and I don't know

01:02:58

I It's funny I got this very I got

01:03:05

I I sort of started on this part of my personal belief being to do what

01:03:12

I thought was the right thing to do and I Applied that when

01:03:18

I was selling cars like when someone came in and they were looking for you know $20 ,000 car and then

01:03:27

I'd sit down with them to find out whether they could really afford it and they'd say You know,

01:03:34

I'd look at their finances and go you can't afford this. I would tell them that I would say look

01:03:40

I Could sell you a $20 ,000 car make more money, but I really think it's the wrong thing for you to do.

01:03:48

Listen to me This is what I think you should be doing. Here's how I think this could work This is what I think would be best for you

01:03:54

I'm giving you my best advice if you want to buy that car go ahead

01:03:59

But here is my best advice and I really took it to heart. I really was like You know,

01:04:06

I was an honest used car sales. Yeah Yeah, I'm wondering to like thinking back to when you were doing the fair game type of Tactics like I would believe as a

01:04:20

Christian that we want to love our neighbor That's something that's innate within humans as we want to love our neighbors

01:04:25

So how how when you're doing the fair game tactics or at least describe it to our listeners? How were you able to justify?

01:04:32

Doing things in the fair game tactics that you did to to others While still wanting to do the best for the world

01:04:41

Does that make sense like because like the Scientology mottos through technology you can save the world, but then there's the fair game tactics

01:04:46

Well, you just hit upon it exactly the idea is that Scientology is the salvation for every man woman and child on earth and it is the only

01:05:00

Salvation it is the only thing that can save you

01:05:06

Andrew You Jeremiah Your wives your loved ones the people down the street the people in China everybody on planet earth must have

01:05:19

Scientology and if they don't they are doomed to an eternity of pain and suffering and blackness that is

01:05:28

What is used to justify? so if there is someone out there who is

01:05:35

Seeking to stop that from happening By saying bad things about Scientology, you know writing media articles that That might scare people away or prevent them from finding the truth of Scientology the sacrifice of those people is a very very small price to pay for the salvation of eight billion others and That is the ultimate justification that is used for all of Hubbard's policies this is one of the things that's so unique about Scientology is that Hubbard wrote about how you destroy the enemies of Scientology in Detail Hubbard considered and and told stories that he was a great intelligence officer in the

01:06:26

Navy in World War two bullshit, but he Then went about Describing all of these things that Scientology or Scientologists are supposed to do in order to deal with critics and this includes like having case officers and cutouts and phony, you know information gathering and creating false rumors and setting people up for things all of this sort of Intelligence spy stuff that is

01:07:03

Documented in Scientology. It's laid out. It's still there the problem the problem with Scientology is it can't change it is an organization that was born in the

01:07:16

Cold War era and it continues to this day with the same pattern of operation and Dictates that Hubbard laid out in the early years that can never be changed because everything is based on the writing of Yeah, I it reminds me of in Proverbs 12 10.

01:07:37

It says the mercy of the wicked is cruel meaning that there's Cruel things that are done in the name of mercy when it's not merciful

01:07:44

In it in and of itself like the fair game tactics and it even seems like within Scientology that the fair game tactics aren't only used on people who are

01:07:54

SPS or wogs in a sense the outside world But it's also used to control people in Scientology Like it was used to control you like you were sent to this place called

01:08:03

The hole or to walk around a tree or to jump in a pool with all your clothes on can you can you explain?

01:08:10

Some of those things that you went through personally that I would call that spiritual abuse and spiritual trauma

01:08:17

Yes, and I agree with you. That is exactly what it is. It is mind fuckery

01:08:23

It is that is the mind prison In sort of encapsulated the whole is

01:08:33

Something that was depicted in going clear or at least one small part of it.

01:08:38

I give a much broader lengthier Rendition of what the whole was because I was one of the founding members

01:08:46

The whole was a prison that was created on the property of the

01:08:52

International Headquarters of Scientology in Riverside County where people were incarcerated myself included and ended up Engaging in all sorts of physical abuses in order to squeeze confessions out of people that supposedly would

01:09:16

Prove that they were now worthy of serving David Miscavige and these these sort of sadistic activities and you know

01:09:29

Throwing people in slimy lakes with their clothes on and you know running around the pole in 110 degree heat that sort of stuff is the physical

01:09:45

Manifestations of the mental torture that was occurring And the mental torture is far more difficult to to grasp

01:09:56

Viscerally, it is far more difficult to describe But it is far more effective

01:10:02

Larry Wright called his book going clear Scientology in the prison of belief because that is what?

01:10:09

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01:11:00

Yeah, and also when you talk about just a prison of belief, but specifically a propaganda I want to jump into some of the

01:11:06

Faraday came tags when it comes to really I would even appeal You know as a Christian I feel like the Ten Commandments don't bear false witness

01:11:13

So a billion lies that we posted our soul should be there right next to your book and I just want to read the introduction

01:11:19

I'll let you kind of describe this because I let you of course, I'm gonna let you second set the record straight I know we're all shaking our boots here.

01:11:27

I'm a little nervous here, but it says The purpose of this work is to provide you with a different view on Mike Rinder the one he desperately tries to bury

01:11:35

When Rinder was in the Church of Scientology Scientology, he was not considered as someone who had authority

01:11:41

He was someone he was a disrespectful person with a major self -importance problem

01:11:47

And then he just goes on he says he is on a campaign to spread false information About Scientology to get back at David Miscavige They the ecclesiastical leader of the religion for expelling him after the leader discovered all his breaches to common sensical policies and his resonance to using the church any policy or director of the church and this is might render was a

01:12:08

Nightmare to work with and the highest when the highest ranks of the church threw him out just paraphrasing it

01:12:14

Explain what you were like explain me. We just talk about who Ryan Prescott Described him in that poster and social media, but then like his thing is all indicative of the propaganda side of the fair game of Scientology Well, that's true.

01:12:26

Ryan Prescott is is literally a nobody. I think he like unfortunately,

01:12:33

I think he is being taken advantage of He if you've ever watched any of his videos,

01:12:41

I mean he I I don't I don't know him person

01:12:46

So I don't want to say something but he's like a little unbalanced

01:12:52

I is the best the kindest way that I can put it. He was never in the C organization

01:12:57

He's never been anywhere near me. He's never been anywhere near David Miscavige. He wrote that Wrote that book was compiled for him to put his name on before my book was even published

01:13:10

It claims to be you know Refuting the the things that are in the book, but it actually came out before it was even published

01:13:19

So, you know how how he's refuting stuff in a book that he hasn't read is a little Fathom, but you know those sort of things don't tend to strike

01:13:29

Strike these people as being important and You know, it's kind of interesting

01:13:36

Scientology rewrites history about everyone this is another thing that is sort of common to Well, it's certainly pervasive in Scientology But I believe it's common to a lot of these sort of high control groups is when someone who's prominent leaves the fold suddenly they become a

01:13:59

Very bad person that everybody knew was very bad all along Even though when

01:14:05

I escaped I was literally in London, England being the international spokesperson for Scientology I had just been interviewed by John Sweeney and of the

01:14:20

BBC panorama show And I was on the board of directors of the

01:14:26

Church of Scientology International What is also pretty amazing is that?

01:14:33

Hubbard claims that he has all the technology for everything and and that includes

01:14:39

Administrative technology and how to train executives and how to pick your people and how to know whether someone is a good employee or a bad employee and yet every person from the senior echelons of Scientology who has left myself

01:14:55

Marty Rathbun, Tom Tabak, Mark Hedley, Claire Hedley, like I could just keep going on this list

01:15:03

Amy Scobie, Matt, blah blah blah blah blah blah Every one of us when we have now escaped is suddenly

01:15:12

Oh my god, they were a hopelessly useless person that couldn't do anything

01:15:18

They were liars. They were cheats. They were stealing. They were this they were that but every one of those people that I just named

01:15:26

Were in very very senior positions in Scientology for years and years and years

01:15:34

I was on stage at every international Scientology event for 20 years you know and now suddenly after the fact

01:15:44

I Not only don't know anything. I was also a criminal the whole time and I had no morals

01:15:51

I was a liar. I was a cheat and a thief But I was also raised as Scientologist so Well, you know what which way do you want it guys do you want the the people who were lauded as the senior officials of Scientology to all be known as liars cheats thieves no -good do -nothings or You know, how do you want to leave it?

01:16:21

So there you go, that's my response It's good enough. And one thing it's just interesting.

01:16:26

I have you heard of the term astroturfing? No, okay. Well, it's a term that's used as basically it's an example

01:16:33

You have like a pharmaceutical drug and somebody wants to check out peer reviews But the peer reviews are actually a bunch of websites that are published by the pharmaceutical company happens all the time

01:16:45

So when I google you there'll be a website pops up like domestic abuse survivors calm

01:16:51

And literally for me like 15 seconds in I'm like, hold on a second these this is something's up here

01:16:57

And then then there's ones about Leah and there's ones about Lawrence, right? And there's ones about all the other people who've been on your show

01:17:03

Like yeah, tell them about like they how many domains do they have? Like how do they operate like that? They I mean

01:17:09

Scientology has registered like thousands and thousands of domains and even

01:17:15

People who are still in Scientology. They have the domains registered in case they leave so they put up these sites

01:17:24

They spend a lot of money Creating these sites and videos and paying for Google ads for anybody that searches my book or searches my name or searches

01:17:35

Leah's name up pops a Google ad is the number one thing, you know, find out a real story about Mike Rinder and this

01:17:45

It's really interesting Jeremiah because this is What my sort of biggest issue is at this point, which is?

01:17:56

Scientology's tax -exempt status allows them to hide behind The First Amendment and the protections of Look, we the government can't intrude or interpret our religious beliefs and practices

01:18:14

The only time that they can they can go beyond that is if those practices are illegal now

01:18:23

Scientology is very careful to Stick within the borders of legality.

01:18:29

They may be immoral. They may be unethical But generally they're not illegal however

01:18:37

There is a clause in the IRS code that says in order to qualify for tax -exempt status

01:18:45

You have to there's four basic criteria, but one of them is

01:18:50

Not be in violation of public policy now public policy is this vaguely defined term of what's acceptable in society and Unfortunately, there is only one case that went to the

01:19:08

United States Supreme Court that has defined what public policy is and it was the case of Bob Jones University and Bob Jones University had racially discriminatory entrance requirements for Enrolling in their school and they have their tax -exempt status revoked and the

01:19:30

Supreme Court said look You want to keep doing that? That's perfectly within your right you can believe whatever you want.

01:19:39

You don't want to have racially diverse student body go ahead, but The IRS doesn't have to give you exemption for that that is not exempt that is in violation of public policy now because of that one case the interpretation of the law is that violations of public policy are in are exclusively or are only defined as racial

01:20:08

Discrimination that cannot be what the law actually is intended to be

01:20:17

It cannot be that a tax -exempt Organization can spend millions tens of millions, maybe hundreds of millions harassing people buying buying media websites hiring private investigators to follow them and take their garbage

01:20:35

You know set up camera surveillance on them Harass them in public or like that your tax dollars are

01:20:45

Subsidizing that yours Jeremiah Andrews every person who's listening to this if you pay taxes in the

01:20:52

United States You are subsidizing those activities. That is a violation of public policy

01:20:59

The IRS should be revoking Scientology's tax -exempt status on that basis alone

01:21:08

How do they get around how does the Scientology organization get around putting people in the hole like for two months three months

01:21:16

There's like testimonies of like you wrote where people are clawing at each other hitting each other hurting each other This is something that you would think would be illegal in every sense.

01:21:24

What's the way to get around it? They do they sign some does the person the C org sign something to where they can't Char put charges against the

01:21:31

Scientology organization. How does that work? It's it's hard for me to fathom that well Believe it or not

01:21:37

Andrew if the FBI busted down the gates and went and Took every one of those people and said hi

01:21:49

I'm an FBI agent. I want you to tell me what's going on here. Are you being held against your will?

01:21:54

Are you being are you being abused every single one of them would say no? They were this is what you see in so many of these documentaries you see the the

01:22:06

Warren Jeff stuff and what those women and they're like and this sort of Someone comes in and they're howling about you know

01:22:15

The Child Protective Services is here and they're stealing my children and they're doing this that that In the minds of those people if an

01:22:25

FBI Agent walked in with a badge and said I can take you away from here

01:22:30

They would think that they were being taken over the wall into hell so It's the it's the mind prison.

01:22:38

That is the problem. I mean honestly Andrew in 2009 I was working with FBI agents and they asked me that very question if we went and Britain and Set a team there to go and get these people what would happen

01:22:54

I Described that to them. He said they said well What if you came along and Mark Hedley and some of these other people came along with us?

01:23:02

They said they'd look at us just the same like we're cockroaches. We're like we're horrible just we're now

01:23:09

Suppressive persons that are there to destroy Scientology and anybody that that would break ranks

01:23:16

To join and walk out the door at that point would Would be making a decision that they believed would destroy them for eternity.

01:23:28

Yeah Where do you see good? No, that's it. Okay. Oh Yeah Yeah, just uh, where do you see the future of Scientology?

01:23:39

Post miscavige area think of all the severance and craziness that happened when miscavige took over I think he's got to be in his like 60s or Early 60s like will it even make it back as you talk about in your book?

01:23:52

I was dwindling. There's moments I think he was somewhere where they're making people it was maybe as you they're going at night because you didn't want to see this

01:24:00

One building that spent millions of dollars on was empty Like what is the

01:24:05

Scientology really even have a future or what does that look like? Well, it has a future because it has a lot of money has billions of dollars

01:24:15

It has a lot of property. It has a lot of people that believe in it and it has

01:24:23

You know ideas It's hard to kill ideas. You can eradicate abuses, but you can't get rid of ideas quite so easily and The ideas of Scientology will probably be around forever

01:24:39

There will be some crackpots that will still be still be believing the ideas of a

01:24:45

Scientology even if there's no organization left So the thoughts the the ideas the beliefs of Scientology will probably never

01:24:55

Ultimately go away. I mean they're in books. They'll be around forever but the organization will

01:25:03

Will continue to Dissipate and it's it's ultimate

01:25:11

You know Destruction or falling apart will occur or be sped up Once the tax -exempt status is gone because the big thing that tax -exempt status gives in the

01:25:24

United States is is Not money. It is not the money that is important about the exemption it is the credibility that it gives to Scientology to be a religious tax -exempt organization

01:25:41

Because there is no other There's no other stamp of Religiosity in the

01:25:47

United States. The government does not hand out You're the state religion or your this or your that the only place you can get

01:25:57

Religious bona fides in the United States is by being granted tax -exempt status as a 501c3

01:26:04

Religious organization by the IRS and the second thing that grants because of the

01:26:10

Church Audits Procedures Act and various other laws is Absolute lack of transparency about where your money goes how much you make what you spend it on There are no reporting requirements whatsoever for any religious organization other than their unrelated business income and that so Scientology collects billions of dollars spends it on hiring

01:26:37

PIs and lawyers and smear sites and etc, etc And nobody knows how much is being spent on that not even the

01:26:45

Scientology People who give the money and that is one of the huge things that would change if That information was put out there and people found out that they had been told

01:26:58

You need to give a million dollars to help with hurricane relief and they ended up spending 5 ,000 of the million on handing out some bottles of water, but didn't do anything else.

01:27:08

That would be the end of Scientology's ability to raise money Hmm and all that all that you're mentioning is kind of in the present

01:27:16

We're kind of getting towards where you're after up here and I Mike I really appreciate you taking the time here Like what would you like to see though?

01:27:22

Like within your lifetime? What would you like to see happen? I? Would like to see that organization basically dismantle basically

01:27:33

Put out a business because it is a business Scientology is absolutely a business and it is a based on a business model

01:27:43

It is based on you know There are exact things that you have to buy in Scientology you get discounts for buying them early

01:27:51

You get discounts for buying a whole bunch of them at once There are commissions paid to people who a bird dog for you

01:28:00

It's like it is a an absolute business Modeled Quote religion and That business needs to be shut down because it is the business and the organization that perpetrates the abuses on Individuals it's not the crazy beliefs that are written about by Hubbard in the books or whatever

01:28:25

People can believe anything they want. It's the practices that are formalized within the organizational structure of Scientology That are causing the abuses

01:28:37

That's good, man. We basically have a quote here, too I mean, it's on Jerry's hat my hats backwards, but it says bad theology hurts people and the difference between I would say biblical

01:28:47

Christianity and these cults like Scientology Mormonism even Jehovah's Witnesses is there's always going to be some business aspect

01:28:55

To it I mean the biblical gospel is this Romans 10 19 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is

01:29:01

Lord and believe in your Heart that God raised him from the dead. You will be saved There's no XYZ that needs to be obtained through purchases packages or the sacrifice of your life

01:29:10

Right to get to the bridge of total freedom the the biblical gospel is that no Jesus is

01:29:16

God in the flesh who came and He is the bridge to total freedom and when the Sun sets you free the

01:29:22

Sun sets you free indeed You don't have to pay for this or pay for that in order to inherit salvation

01:29:27

It's done solely through the work of Christ like in Colossians 2 it says that Christ It says and you who are dead in your trespasses in the uncircumcision of your flesh

01:29:36

God made alive together with him Having forgiven us all our trespasses. This is this is what a big difference between I'd say

01:29:42

Scientology and Christianity is right here It says by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands this he set aside nailing it to the cross

01:29:50

He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame by triumphing over them in him Scientology does the opposite they collect your record of debts in auditing and they set them in front of you when you're trying to leave

01:30:02

Jesus died for our debts because he is God in the flesh and it's and it's only through him that we can actually

01:30:09

Have salvation, but it's nothing that I do on my part. It's not me trying to sell something to someone

01:30:14

It's purely by the work of God and that's the freedom of biblical Christianity And that's my hope

01:30:19

I guess Mike for for you or for people coming out of Scientology again because I'm a Christian, right? is to Know that the freedom of the record of debt that stood against you has been set aside

01:30:30

Christ nailing it on the cross through his through his sacrifice, right? And I think that's a freedom that people can have

01:30:37

Actually how Christians can love their neighbors to people if they know they're Scientologists I don't know if they'll know or not because they kind of hide it pretty well

01:30:44

It seems like but if but you know where your local Scientology building is that there's one in Utah this makes me want to go down there and try to get in conversations with these people because it says the gospel is the power of God to salvation

01:30:54

I know Jesus can destroy that a mind prison because a sound mind is something that God can give

01:31:01

And it's the gospel that can help rescue these people from this mind prison So I hope this urges anyone who's listening

01:31:07

Try to find someone who's a Scientologist preach the gospel to them that their salvation is not secure

01:31:13

Through their own works or merits because it's not possible. How can you please an eternal God that way?

01:31:19

Actually, it's the fruits and byproducts of a man -made religion that wants to keep you enslaved Remember the mercy of the wicked is cruel

01:31:26

But instead the free gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord the free gift of God Which is a beautiful thing

01:31:33

So I I'm thankful again as well Mike for you coming on here like like Jerry said something that is really pushed us to make this podcast was

01:31:42

Your guys's A &E series like it really was we actually have a little show that we do after we record and we actually call it the aftermath

01:31:52

Yeah, and yeah We love you guys And actually

01:31:57

I just want to give a shout out There's somebody who's on our podcast a couple years back or her name is Jennifer Brewer She's worked with a group called the

01:32:05

UPCI and basically like they her upbringing. It's essentially it's a very like Legalistic Pentecostal like religion that where the women are basically treated like cattle like one thing specifically like they have to grow out their hair

01:32:20

Like really long and they can't treat it or anything like that So when she left there was so much like PTSD and trauma like can

01:32:27

I even show? Can I show my forearms like that's what she had to go through and even like her

01:32:34

She started a whole ministry as well to like helping women who've come out of that and she actually messaged me

01:32:39

And she's like I get she actually gives credit to your show as well, too So I want to say Mike like your work is so Incredibly appreciated, and I I do agree with you too.

01:32:49

I want to see the Scientology dismantled as well, too Any last thoughts are like where can people also get your book at it's it's worth reading

01:32:56

I did want to say with your accent that the reason you were dead -on with the accent because that's why

01:33:03

I got on audible That's that's I would recommend on audible because that's the best way to consume in my opinion

01:33:10

Well, a lot of people a lot more people have bought the audible than the hardback book frankly

01:33:17

Anyway, you can get it Anyway, you can get it at bookstores or get it on Amazon or a Barnes and Noble or you know?

01:33:24

All of the book outlets have it. So it's a it's readily available. I Thoroughly enjoyed talking to you guys.

01:33:32

This was a great time and I appreciate the work that you do too and Here's to hoping that the

01:33:43

The information age is the end of the cult age. Yeah. Yeah, I'd agree

01:33:48

We need to use technology in a good way to help these people All right. Well, thank you all guys for listening and Appreciate you again for taking the time

01:33:56

Mike and I appreciate all that. All right, all that being said We'll talk to you all next week on cultist where we enter into the kingdom of the cults.