Basic Training for Sharing the Trinity and Listening for Presuppositions

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the United States It's one eight six six eight five four six seven six three and now with today's topic.

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Here is James White And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line. My name is

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James White. We are live today Right here in Phoenix, Arizona. I'm not off in some distant part of the nation a couple weeks ago

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We were in Lynchburg, Virginia when we did the program then last week You couldn't quite sneak it in when we were in the beautiful city of Nashville, Tennessee Ministering there was

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Steve camp and that was a wonderful time and looking forward to chance getting back there again hopefully in the spring of next year, in fact and Just couldn't quite fit in that the time difference of the time difference had actually switched the day

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Before we would have been able to to work it in but we weren't able to do that.

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So Live at eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three today watching an interesting conversation the chat channel we have an atheist attempting to Utilize his

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God -given abilities to think to demonstrate that the God who gave him those abilities to think does not exist

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I always find And it very interesting and fascinating to watch folks to watch pots

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Utilizing flowery language to say that the Potter does not exist We were just told that I'm just scrolling up here that A cause can't logically necessitate its effect so I guess

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That's starts the presupposition that there can be no self -existent being So that's how you do it.

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You start with presuppositions to say God can't exist and voila. God can't exist. Isn't it? Wonderful. Well, it is

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Oh, I have one of these. Let me try it again Much better cough the cough button still works.

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And unfortunately, we're gonna have to utilize it some today. I apologize for any disappearances of the

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Discussion at that particular point in time, but it's better than hearing me Coughing at you today. I invite your participation at eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three eight six six eight five four

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Sixty seven sixty three today. We're gonna do a little basic training a little basic training in Giving an answer for the hope that's within us and specifically in regards to the doctrine of the

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Trinity This is a subject that we discuss fairly regularly over the course of the year and we've done it on the radio program before But more than ever

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Christians are being called upon to give an answer for the hope that's within them and Not only do you have to give an answer to the

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Jehovah's Witnesses? We saw some out this morning. In fact as we were driving around saw some in didn't come by our house anyways but in this particular neighborhood and So they're out there but now there is a considerably more

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Reason to be involved in understanding that doctrine and in giving an answer for that truth

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Because of the fact that we now have the Islamic invasion and I think that's a good way of describing it it is an invasion of discussion of Islam, but it is very rarely from a position of truth and I think it says a lot for the fact that liberal educational institutions

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Seemingly have no problem Being very very kind to Muhammad very very kind to Islam in general

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The standards applied to Islam is very very very different Concern then then the standard is applied to Christianity Even though from a liberal perspective, for example

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Christianity was very much involved in in the liberation of of women whereas Islam today as you can see in the

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Taliban Very very anti woman very much viewing the woman as a secondary

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Person and yet still we find all sorts of of books out there that are very

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Positive toward Islam and the PBS special that everyone's been talking about, you know every great invention and under the

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Sun came about because of the The rise of Islam it's just a truly amazing so there are very few responses to Islam That come from a

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Christian perspective very few Responses that allow for the existence of absolute truth and so Christians simply need to be ready to give an answer

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Islamic apologists are very very prepared to attack the

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Christian faith primarily in two areas that is the consistency of the gospel accounts the consistency and integrity of the text of Scripture And on the doctrine of the

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Trinity so where we got the Bible and why we can trust it and the doctrine of the

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Trinity are the two areas that Islamic apologists will approach and Of course if we want to gain a hearing for the presentation of the gospel to them

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Then we need to deal with those areas where those individuals have been given false information about the reliability of the

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Scripture and false information about the scriptural teaching about who Jesus Christ is and so To be prepared to do all of that type of thing we're gonna do a little basic training today in defending the doctrine of the

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Trinity and Especially I think one of the main things that people miss and that is that listening carefully to the character of the questions that are asked and hearing the assumptions that are behind the

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Objections that are placed against the doctrine of the Trinity. I think honestly if people could simply learn the skill of listening with discernment and Listening with attention to detail hearing what is being assumed by those who are

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Objecting to the doctrine of the Trinity or really to any element of Christian truth this is true no matter what we're dealing with if people could just learn to hear questions and immediately see the

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Presuppositions and assumptions that lie at the base of what is being said They would find themselves in a much better position

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To present the truth and to defend the truth and to do so Effectively and so what we'd like to do today is that just remind us of some some very basic fundamental issues in regards to the doctrine of the

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Trinity where we can go in Scripture to present these things and then the dealing With objections as they come up Recognizing how certain groups even though they may have very very different final conclusions

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Will very often utilize the same kind of errant Arguments I've mentioned that for example back in 1999 when

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I debated Hamza Abdul Malik on the deity of Christ in the New Testament his fundamental conclusions and arguments were the same as Dr.

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Robert Sabin who I debated two days later Even though dr. Sabin is a oneness

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Pentecostal and believes that Jesus Christ is God in human flesh Of course two persons a father and the son they both ended up making however the same

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Assertion the same argument and that is that we must in essence begin with a

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Unitarian Presupposition that we in essence need to presuppose Unitarianism that when the

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Bible says God is one that that precludes a oneness That precludes believing that God is one and being but multiple in persons

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The three divine persons instead from their perspective. You have to start from the beginning of Genesis and assume absolute

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Unitarianism Here you have two people attempting to prove completely different things and The result of that then is they still however use the same type of argumentation

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So for the vast majority of people who are involved in doing apologetics if we could simply learn to hear what people are saying

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And part of that requires you to short -circuit that part That part of the automatic response mechanism in our minds that when we get into a dialogue we get into an

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Argument of you know, let's go ahead and use that term. Sometimes they're good arguments and sometimes they're not good arguments

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But we're in the midst of an argument. There is a debate going on We need to short -circuit that part of our mind

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That in essence tells us that we have to say a word within a certain period of time

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That we have to immediately give a response. We need to allow ourself to have enough time

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To hear the entirety of the statement. We need to be quick to hear slow to speak. That's a biblical biblical paradigm in fact from the wisdom literature and We need to be that way so that we can hear not only what the person is saying we shouldn't jump to two conclusions however

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Beyond just hearing what they're saying even when you understand what their objection is there needs to be a second level of understanding and that is

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What we want to work toward is Having an understanding of what they believe why they believe it and most importantly

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Where the errors in their belief system are giving rise to the objections to Divine truths and now the most obvious here is when dealing with those who object to the doctrine of the

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Trinity and Leaving off for the moment The the the

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Mormons and their problems with monotheism Dealing primarily with subordination is those who would attempt to say to us

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That the Son Jesus Christ Is less than the Father that he is a created being

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When the Muslims will say that he is but an apostle a prophet when Jehovah's Witnesses will say that he is merely

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Michael the Archangel The greatest of all God's creations the one through whom all of the things were made etc.

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Etc the vast majority of the objections that are

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Presented by individuals coming from that perspective are based upon a a priori assumption of Unitarianism They may not say that they may not just say well.

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I'm going to assume Unitarianism of course, but the arguments and You might have to actually peel back two three four layers till you get to the bottom layer but the argument is only coherent and only has force if you start with the assumption of the truth of Unitarianism now, what do

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I mean by Unitarianism? Well the assertion that the oneness of God That the scripture very clearly says

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God is one that the oneness of God is a oneness not only of Ontology that is in his being

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But that it is also a oneness of person So that when we confess that God is one we are saying that he is one being and one person

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Well, of course, what really is the debate? And when we talk about Unitarians versus Trinitarians Well, that is the debate is

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God one in being both sides agree is God one in person No one side aside says that he's trying in person.

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It says he's one in person so if you assume

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Unitarianism from the start if you if you say it is impossible For there to be any other

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Means of God's existence other than Unitarianism and then based your arguments upon that you are arguing in a circle

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You are arguing in an irrational form. You're assuming the conclusion of The debate before the debate has actually begun now, let me give you an example

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And this is probably again. I would say that the single most common objection

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That that Christians really really struggle with I mean when you hear The objection being made in in radio call -in programs when you listen to Christians as they're relating

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Apologetic encounters that they had here's here's the tough issue that they that they struggle with You can from many different perspectives

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Demonstrate the differences that exist between the father and the son

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I Mean, let's just think of the few of a few passages that we could go to The father sends the son the son says he can do nothing outside of what he sees the father doing

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Jesus speaks of how The father is his God and he prays to the father and even after the resurrection there are references like Ephesians 117 they refer to the

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God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ and You have the resurrection narratives and I am ascending to my

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God into your God Etc. Etc. You have All these distinctions that are made between the father and the son and the distinctions go the other direction as well

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It is not the father who has experienced Human existence who has experienced what it means to be

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One who is inside the creation who becomes tired. For example, we see in in Mark chapter 4 in the

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Situation mark chapter 5 in the situation with Jesus asleep on the on the cushion in the boat

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Even during the midst of the storm he's exhausted from a long day of teaching the father has never Experienced that kind of thing again

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We can go to passage after passage after passage after passage that demonstrates the differences between the father and the son so Many objections are simply raised upon the basis of saying well since the father is

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God and He's other than the son then Jesus can't be God Now that's both a confusion of the idea that we are

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You know many of these groups will try to say that we're trying to make Jesus the father And even when we clearly differentiate even when we clearly say no, we are not making

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Jesus the father We are not modalist even when we separate ourselves net people still do that. But there's a there's a lower level of Presupposition in the objection that's being presented that we need to get to and That is when you start peeling back these objections that say well if there's any difference between The father and the son and the father only can be

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God why? because of Unitarianism if the father alone is

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God and he must be because God is Unitarian then since there are differences between the father and the son

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The result then is the son has to be less than the father and cannot truly be deity this type of Unitarianism is

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Absolutely at the root of objection after objection after objection that is thrown out against the doctrine of the

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Trinity and since so few people were are really capable of giving a meaningful definition of the doctrine of the

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Trinity and Of what the debate is actually about very rarely do people actually

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Get into these things and and deal with them in the way that they that they need to be dealt with and so keeping that in mind it is it is

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Really important that when you get into these conversations that you listen to what the person is saying vast majority now, of course, there's

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You know, there's probably Jehovah's Witnesses listening right now And I don't see any lights blinking, but they've certainly called in the past And you know, they throw out this objection that objection and all these things there are people like that who who've heard it all before and Despite seeing all of the the material that's right there in front of them

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Have tried to find ways around everything because they have an ultimate authority in the watchtower Bible and track society

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And that's what they're attempting to do However, the vast majority of folks with whom you're speaking

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Have simply heard these objections repeated over and over again and they've never heard a good response and They're simply shocked when they encounter a good response

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So we want to give them that good response you talk to anyone who has been a part of the watchtower

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Bible and track society for for many years and you'll discover that In many of their cases when they left the society one of the things that got them thinking

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Was someone took the time to give them a clear answer that that that that did answer the common objections they found they ran some thinking

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Christians who were prepared and That's that's giving an answer. That is glorifying to God it's an answer that that is seasoned with grace so on and so forth and That would be very very useful apologize for all the cough buttons and thank you for the water so Preparing to defend the doctrine of Trinity you need to know your audience you need to know who you're talking to It's one of the things that drives me

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Batty in the chat room is when people will come in and they'll throw out objections, but they won't honestly answer questions about where they're coming from These people who want to be secret and secretive in What they're saying it just drives me nuts tell me where you're coming from tell me who you are

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Be honest about it Don't beat around the bush so that we know what your presuppositions are and so that we can

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Apply the same standards to your presuppositions that you want to apply to the position that's being examined

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Many Christians will allow the other side to force them solely on the defensive instead of Applying the very same standards to the other position that they want to apply to the

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Christian position we can't allow that to happen and so there's a need to know your audience to ask questions and One of the reasons that I've found that some people

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Don't actually want to ask questions is because they sort of feel like well if I give them any time at all Almost if I give them any any

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Minutes to say anything Then I'm somehow Allowing error to be promoted or whatever and that just doesn't work if you don't know where the person is coming from you've got to Find out first you can't engage a battle when you don't know where the enemy is and so asking questions

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Finding out where somebody's coming from is not Compromising or some have actually had people that felt they were sort of compromising if they allowed

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For for the other person to be saying more than they were saying I've I've just got to get my my point in now find out where they're coming from as clearly as you can and then once you have the the a

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Good bead shall we say on exactly what the background is where it's coming from as best you can sometimes people either are not

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Forthcoming or they're not really overly certain themselves So I've talked to some very confused people that had almost every element of religious belief in their background someplace

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Which can lead to an incredible amount of confusion truly an incredible amount of confusion

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But try to find out where they're coming from Then once you have at least a decent bead on that Then and you notice all this is incumbent upon the

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Christian to do what I'm saying is Christian You have to take the initiative here. You have to do the extra work.

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They're not going to do it You've got to do it if you're gonna make communication take place You've got to go the extra mile you've got to put out the extra amount of mental energy

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So once you have that basic concept down Then what you need to do is you need to know the doctrine of the

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Trinity so well that you Really on the fly in essence

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Recognize what elements of the Trinity will be objected to by this person if they haven't already stayed their objections and why

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Why will a person coming from this perspective object to the doctrine the Trinity what elements of the doctrine are they going to object to and Why are they going to object to these elements of the doctrine so that you can then create a plan in your mind?

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to communicate as Clearly as possible to them those divine truths from the pages of the scripture

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I'm a firm believer in allowing the Word of God to have its way and its work in the hearts and minds of men and women and so Once you have an idea where they're coming from then you consider the doctrine and so obviously if you're talking to a

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Mormon and You discover let's say this person's just been influenced by Mormonism.

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They're raised in it They're really not committed to it now, but they've got some questions about the Trinity well What is what's the most logical assumption you can make in regards to where their objections are gonna be coming from well

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Probably from their Mormon background. Well. What is Mormonism believe Mormonism believes in a plurality of gods.

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What's the fundamental? Problem in in Mormonism is that they've got the wrong

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God. They don't recognize There's one true and eternal God and so you are gonna recognize

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They're certainly gonna believe in the existence of the Father Son and Spirit is separate distinct persons but they're going to anthropomorphize them turn them into exalted humans in essence and The divine unity is going to be destroyed.

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So what are you gonna be trying to communicate? You're gonna be trying to communicate the truth of the biblical teaching that there is one true

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God that he is eternal that his being is unlimited and therefore can be shared by three divine persons and so Then you go beyond that and I guess what

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I'm doing here is sort of giving you how I think when I'm standing on a street Corner talking with someone or or on a radio program when someone calls in and it's not a long process of thought

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But it just simply It just simply takes place. I think you learn how to do it over time

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The next thing you think about is alright. I need both positive verses that I'm going to present and If I'm going to present for example verses out of anywhere from Isaiah 40 to 48 in defense of monotheism

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With a person the Mormon background I'm gonna want to present to them the context of Isaiah 40 through 48 the trial the false gods

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I'm gonna want to give them a a a ground upon which to stand Realizing that for the vast majority of people

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I'm talking to Isaiah 40 through 48 means nothing. They don't know about the context

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They don't know about the background and if you can in a knowledgeable fashion talk about the trial the false gods here

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God demonstrates The true characteristics that are his over against the false characteristics of idols

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These are the things that make him unique that set him apart, etc. Etc That helps a person to place your verses in a context simply quoting verses out of context

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Probably from books that many of these people have never even read before in their lives is not really gonna be communicating a whole lot and in fact frequently causes an increase in the

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Emotional temperature of the conversation shall we say and so when I talk that person

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I'm first of all, okay Where am I gonna go? What positive verses am I gonna use and and here's another key?

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How can I work into my presentation to this person some of the most commonly misunderstood verses and How can

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I use them to actually communicate the truth? By going to them before they use them establishing the proper context and Then Utilize having gone there a verse that they probably do know

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Providing the context utilizing it and presenting the truth that then has even more force in Helping them to understand

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What the what the issues are really all about now that becomes even more that becomes even more of a challenge

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When we move into the other areas of the Doctrine of the Trinity for one really simple reason because we don't have a solid understanding of Those other elements of the

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Doctrine the Trinity specifically the existence of the three divine persons and the

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Equality of those persons and especially at first point the existence three divine persons very few evangelicals today sadly

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Really prepared to give a meaningful defense of that of that belief And so as we do a little boot camp a little basic training, we'll move to that next point here on the dividing line eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three is the number for you to call with your questions and we'll be right back

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And welcome back to the dividing line. My name is James white We are talking about the Doctrine of the

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Trinity today And we're looking at how to present its and how to defend it and we're taking your calls at eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three and Let's go ahead and take our first caller and talk with Jason.

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Hello, Jason Yeah, my question was um in terms of the Trinity and ecumenism In terms of the gospel

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I would probably share with you that the Trinity really is a central doctrine in terms of Ecumenism and it does kind of bring up an interesting point as to If it is an essential part of the gospel

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How is that explicable in the Old Testament if we were challenged upon that?

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Did the Old Testament Saints have a working understanding of the Trinity? And if they didn't how is it that we share the gospel with them as old covenant partners?

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Well, of course the Doctrine of the Trinity is a part of the progressive revelation of God and I would not say out there

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I know there are some who who do say that Old Testament Saints somehow had a knowledge of the

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Trinity I don't know how a person would go about Demonstrating that from Scripture at least on any meaningful exegetical basis anyways but I believe the

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Doctrine of the Trinity is revealed in the coming of Jesus Christ and in the ministry of Christ and the outpouring of the

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Holy Spirit, so If that is the fundamental revelation of the Doctrine of the Trinity then it is progressive obviously it took place after the

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Revelation of the Old Testament and and therefore while it is constituent to the gospel of Jesus Christ in its proclamation today because of that revelation

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It is a it is progressive in its revelation. So we can't have partnership with someone who denies those revealed truths today

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But there was a time when not every element of those revealed truths had in fact been revealed so I Not sure exactly how that relates to Old Testament Saints I think they lived prior to the revelation of the

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Doctrine of the Trinity in the person of Christ I don't think that for example the use of the terms father or or For example father in Isaiah 9 7 is a

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Trinitarian name there because it's a reference to the Sun It's in reference to creation there those

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We can we can with New Testament eyes see consistent passages to the

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Doctrine of the Trinity in the Old Testament, but I have a hard time saying that A person can sit down with the

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Old Testament and and come up with a dogmatic doctrine of the of the Trinity merely upon that when in point of fact the scriptures themselves

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Refer us to the coming of Christ as as being the one who has revealed the father

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And I mean if you could come up with the whole doctrine the Trinity out of the Old Testament Then what what did Christ's coming and?

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What did that reveal about the father? I guess you wouldn't be able to have anything that could be revealed in the coming of Christ But I really think that there was so I don't see that that that's really the issue at that particular point and we do have to deal with With Jews old

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Old Testament Jews in the sense of those who continue to reject The Messiah and the deity of Christ we need to deal with with what they

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What they have to say they like to attack the doctrine of the Trinity the deity of Christ and use the very same type of Unitarian assumptions that Muslims and others do

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But obviously you would you would not accept someone as being a genuine Christian if they were to Claim to be a believer reject the doctrine of the

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Trinity today, right right mm -hmm, okay? And that would be based upon the fact that they are they are rejecting something that has now been evidenced clearly

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Being a New Testament mystery Believers believe whatever has been revealed by that point would that be the line in essence well in essence

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I mean they are they are basically Saying That they they will

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Well in essence calling God a liar that he has given testimony to Jesus Christ and yeah, it is a rejection of the revealed truth of God and so Yeah, most definitely, but I think since it is a progressive revelation that we need to keep that in mind as well

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Okay, okay. I think that's good. Thank you for calling sir. Thank you. All right. God bless Mike eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three

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I Can pretty much guarantee that if you call in? That we'll actually be able to get you right on this time, so give us a call eight six six eight five four six seven

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Six three on the subject of the Trinity today And that would include those of you hiding out there in the shadows who

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I think listen every once in a while Just simply to find out if we're going to address these issues

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And you have your little pet pet passages that might be somewhat Somewhat indicative as well

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It might be very useful. So anyways, we had been talking about the subject of the second point of the

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Doctrine of the Trinity the second foundation of the Doctrine of the Trinity and that is the existence of three divine persons and It is that particular issue that is

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Is Most difficult for Christians to deal with shall we say on the fly or Even in depth for that matter.

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It is simply difficult for Christians to be able to dig through the use of human language and Get past the fact that when we talk about divine persons for most people that turns into Tritheism that turns into an existence of three separate gods or It ends up turning into modalism ends up turning into the idea.

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That's The father is just acting like the son or acting like the spirit But there's not actually any true communication or communion between the divine persons what we need to deal with in the biblical

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Categories in the biblical language Is the fact that we clearly have taught in Scripture That there is only one true

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God. We clearly have presented to us three persons who are distinguished from one another they are distinguished from one another by their conversations with one another by their functions by their attributes by their roles and salvation they are distinguished by many many different means and Yet we are also presented with the full deity of the

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Sun the pole full personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit as well and That is the the biblical material and some people would say well, that's contradictory

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You can't have three divine persons and yet only one true God that's a either got to have one

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God or three gods, but you can't have this other and of course that is the assumption again of Unitarianism that is the assumption that well,

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I can only have a God who is a Unitarian God I won't accept a God who is Trinitarian in his existence

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That's the the the problem with presuppositions that I was referring to before So when we get to this particular issue

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We we need to have a very clear concept in our own mind of How the three persons are related to one another we need to have banished all

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Semblances of modalism from our mind, which means we shouldn't be sitting around reading any TD Jake's books we shouldn't be in a situation where we are listening to that channel between 20 and 22 very often because those folks don't know what in the world they're talking about and We should have a clear definition of what the doctrine is in our mind and we should know where the

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Bible presents these particular truths to us and again

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That's the type of thing. You just when was the last time you heard a sermon on How John chapter 5 demonstrates the difference between The father and the son and yet the perfect unity that exists between them and the accomplishment of salvation and and all the rest that kind of said when it was last time you heard a discussion of Acts 20 28 or the description of Jesus says they would not have crucified the

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Lord of glory and how this is relevant to the fact that he is One person with two natures and that's just not the kind of stuff that you encounter on a regular basis in most

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Evangelical churches today. So as a result of that there is a general confusion on the part of many people on that very subject and So if we're confused about something, it's gonna be difficult for us to then explain it to someone else and if we're confused about what the specific doctrine is that we're talking about it's gonna be very difficult for us to go to the scriptures and and Rightfully use them and then it becomes very easy for the person who is objecting

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To the doctrine of the Trinity to confuse us and to very often get us to defend

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That which we don't actually believe in the first place and so when it comes this particular issue

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When you kind of comes to this subject of the relationship of the Father the Son the Spirit while there is literally chapter after chapter after chapter of meaningful biblical

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Argumentation to be presented our own confusions keep us from doing it in a meaningful way

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And so really at this point It's just a matter of knowing what we believe and knowing why we believe it

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Knowing where for example in Matthew chapter 3 you have the clear distinction at the baptism of Jesus Between the

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Father and the Son and the Spirit and remember a lot of people honestly think that's an objection to the

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Trinity they believe that it's an objection to what we believe and when they hear you bringing it up and You presenting it as being consistent with what you believe

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That can actually put them in a defensive position of saying well, wait a minute, how can you say that how can that be consistent?

38:30

With what you're saying? That can then help you to say well, it seems you you've got some misunderstandings about what

38:35

I believe may I explain this to you and That puts that that can put take out a lot of them the heat the emotion

38:45

In the conversation that can keep it in a in a respectful Context and that can be very very very useful

38:52

To to have that to take place in that way again. I'm not I'm not saying when

38:58

I say useful I'm not trying to be just utilitarian here. But look the fact matter is we all know that you can

39:06

You can talk to your wife About something that you want the family to do in Multiple in multiple different ways

39:13

You can just tell her honey, I've decided we're doing this and that's generally not the best way to do it

39:20

Or you can you know, you can tell her over a romantic dinner Generally it's not good to tell her while hand in or a vacuum cleaner, you know, there's just obviously just basic You know human interaction things to go along there and there's nothing wrong

39:34

You know recognizing that there are there are good ways of explaining the truth and there are bad ways to explain the truth

39:40

I guess most of it Really is just getting out of the way getting our personalities out of the way and getting our

39:51

Quirks out of the way our insufficiencies out of the way and allowing the scriptures themselves to speak

39:56

And so when we're when we're doing this when I talk about useful things

40:01

I'm not not trying to say that we should be using tricks or something What I'm saying is there is a an effective way of speaking the truth and then there are ineffective ways of speaking the truth as well all right, let's um eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three

40:17

We have another caller online This caller is a is a pro this caller should be very easy to get through.

40:26

And so let's try Mr. In -N -Out burger from California How are you

40:32

James? I'm doing just fine cool, cool I guess I could say bothered me because I really have never been able to put it together in a way that would satisfy me

40:42

And it's been brought up to me by even a Jehovah's Witness. That was really the first religion I started to study and it's the passage in 1st

40:49

Corinthians chapter 15. Mm -hmm. I Don't remember exactly 1528 1528

40:56

Okay, that's the one and it says and when all things are subjected to him Then the son himself also will be subject to the one who is who subjected all things to him that God may be all in all

41:08

In Reading in understanding the doctrine of the Trinity. I've always understood that in Jesus is divine nature

41:14

Jesus is equal to the Father but is Second to him in his order of you know, he's begotten and sent by the

41:23

Father and the Holy Spirit and so forth But it almost seems here. Let me correct just one thing there lest someone trip me up He's not sent by the

41:32

Father and Holy Spirit the Father and the Son Right, yeah, I mean that the son is sent by the

41:38

Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds, right? and and You know, there's all there's this equality in their eternity

41:48

And of course I look at a Hebrews chapter 1 verse 8 where it says that your throne Oh God is forever and ever and you rule, you know for all eternity but right here it says that the son's gonna subject himself and then

42:02

It also says that the son will hand the kingdom back to the father and so that God may be all in all

42:09

Hand the kingdom back to the father The text here says when all things are subjected to him

42:16

Then the son himself also will be subjected the one who subject all things to him so that God may be all in all

42:23

Where's that There's one that had something And I don't remember right now, but it almost seems like he's the job is winners will put it like he's a second or Second in in authority or that how the father is supposed to be superior to the son in some way

42:42

Hmm. Um, let me see if I can figure out what's your Kingdom kingdom, that's not it

42:50

Looking for various kingdom passages here He has made us be a kingdom priest to his

42:56

God and father I don't think that's it Kingdom and priest to our

43:01

God revelation 510 kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ and he Will reign forever and ever possibly

43:11

Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ come revelation 1210. I don't see anything anything else along those lines

43:19

Hmm. So well the the one you've brought up that however is is a is a very good one to to address because of the fact that Many people do struggle mightily to explain

43:34

I'm sorry Then comes the end when he delivers up the kingdom through God and father when he has abolished all rule and authority and power

43:48

Okay Yeah, and it goes on to say for he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet

43:54

Last enemy that will be abolished his death for he has put all things in objection under his feet But when he says all things put in subjection is evident that he is accepted who put all things in subjection to him

44:04

When all things are subjected to him then the son himself also be subjected the one who subject all things to him So God may be all in all and the idea is well

44:12

This this then shows in an eternal Subjection of the son to the father.

44:19

So in the in the idea that The son really takes the same role as the rest of creation

44:27

In in being subjected to the father, etc, etc So there's there's generally the argumentation that is put forward and you're right

44:35

Most people have never even looked at the passage or given much consideration to that particular aspect of it however,

44:41

I will note that The last phrase of 1st Corinthians 15 28 is not so that the father may be all in all

44:52

That that would be a very difficult thing to explain if it said so that the father

44:59

Might be all in all It does not say that it says so that they us might be all in all and That I think really becomes the key to being able to give an answer

45:13

To the objection that is being raised here. And that is right now

45:20

In in the age in which we live the The honor and the glory goes unto

45:27

Jesus Christ. He is the one is whose name we We suffer his is the one whose name we carry upon our lips

45:36

There is a tremendous focus upon the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth and what

45:45

Paul is talking about here is when all of Redemption has been accomplished when time itself has come to its end when all things are subjected to him that is the judgment has taken place and the redeemed are in the presence of the father and those who are

46:04

Not going to be redeemed are suffering. They're just punishment away from his presence

46:11

Then what will come of the? unique Activities and unique roles that have marked redemption itself.

46:21

I mean obviously When we see the Sun humiliated in the in the place in say

46:33

Before Pilate or before Herod or the Roman soldiers. This is a position that he takes to accomplish a particular

46:44

Element of the eternal covenant of redemption. This is a role that he took voluntarily

46:50

That's in in time past when the Father the Son the Spirit Chose Voluntarily the roles that they were going to take about in the redemption of God's people that Those roles even change over time that for example

47:08

The role the mediator is not as clearly seen in the Old Covenant as it is in the

47:14

New Testament scriptures And the role the Spirit becomes much more explicit over time similar to Jason's question that came beforehand in regards to the the fact that dr.

47:26

The Trinity is progressively revealed through scripture and so there are Changes in these various roles, but what happens when the roles themselves have been completed that the

47:37

Redemption is finished and when we're talking here about the economic Trinity We're talking about we use the term economic

47:44

Trinity there in a sense of how God accomplishes His task through the work of the divine persons

47:50

They're not they can't all do the same thing We would not be able to distinguish between the Father Son the Spirit if they all did the same thing

47:57

They there there has to be some different role that's taken by each of the divine persons in the work of the gospel

48:05

Accomplishing the work of the gospel itself and so they've taken different roles Well are those roles always going to be that way or is there a time coming when the the fulfillment comes?

48:14

The end has come fulfillment is there it's finished and therefore at that time death has been banished everything is done and Then you don't have so that the father may be all in all the son doesn't just take it you know some secondary place someplace, but instead the focus of the redeemed is

48:34

Not upon one of the divine persons to the expense of the others the the focus of the redeemed in their worship

48:44

I Guess we're out of time And I guess I'll have to finish this very important point

48:51

In just a moment the focus of the redeemed is upon who God himself is and we'll be right back

48:59

White's book is the There be demons in the technology.

49:04

Yes There's a there's a secondary reason why I'm sounding like that because Yeah, well,

49:11

I'm not gonna tell you what anyways you still there Johnny sorry about that the the computer took over and that's and it just it just it it just Anyways what

49:23

I was attempting to say and I was getting to a really good point there. I was building up to it Did you notice sort of the the crescendo and everything that was that I was getting going there?

49:31

I can I can hear you. So so it's just I'm sorry.

49:38

Well, let me let me get back to the important point here And that is the final phrase of 1st

49:43

Corinthians 15 28 is that God may be all in all? Not the father may be all in all or the son may be all in all or the spirit may be all in all in Eternity to come the focus of our worship will not be divided between the divine persons so that one person is

50:05

More of the object of our attention and our adoration than another person

50:10

But instead because the the work is really that of the triune God himself

50:17

Those specific roles where for example right now the everything is being subjected under the

50:22

Sun's feet Why well first Ephesians chapter 1 he's already explained in that letter that it is

50:28

God the father's will to sum up all things in Christ the things in heaven and the things in the earth and he also says in Colossians chapter 1 that it is in Christ that he has reconciled all things to himself and he's using it there in a non -salvific term that that is he is by the death of Christ laid the foundation for his just judgment of all things so Christ has a has a

50:50

Outfront position here shall we say and what Paul is saying is but when everything is subjected when death has been banished

50:57

Then those distinctions that we make not they're not gonna cease It's not that we're not gonna know who the father is or who the son is or the spirit is but the object of our worship will be it will be one there will be a

51:11

Unity of that because we will be able to fully understand how each of the divine persons was fully involved in the work of salvation

51:19

Itself. So Paul is not subjecting Jesus in the sense of making him a part of the created order

51:25

But he is saying that the time will come when the son notice the son himself

51:32

Will also will be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him. That would be the father So that and then he uses the term theos.

51:41

He doesn't say potter He doesn't say so the father will be all in all but so that God will be all in all

51:48

God alone will be the object of our worship in his fullness and The the final wrapping up of all things will allow us to have that kind of unified worship

51:59

So this is one of the few passages were when Paul uses the Greek word fails. He's not referring to the father specifically

52:05

Well, you see I don't think that there is any reason for him to refer When he uses theos in at the end of first Corinthians 1528 solely to the father.

52:15

He had just in the previous phrase referred to the The son himself also be subjected to the one who subjected all things to him.

52:25

He's already just identified the father He could just simply use that as the referent. He doesn't instead he goes back and specifically he doesn't say

52:32

God the father Which he had used only back in verse 24 if he wanted to distinguish

52:39

The father from the son he could have he specifically does not and so I think that that Does tell us that in in this light since he's just been talking about the father and son and then he uses just the generic

52:51

They asked To try to say well This just simply means the father will be all in all just throws a monkey wrench in what he's trying to say

52:58

So when in 24 when he says that that Jesus delivers the kingdom to the

53:03

God and father. He's only Explaining that in verse 21 I would even say I would even go beyond that to say that when he delivers up the kingdom to God and the father

53:12

That's what that's what it says in 28 says he will be subjected to one who subjected all things to him but what is

53:18

The issue is that last phrase in verse 28 is that last phrase supposed to be taken to mean?

53:25

That once the son has subjected himself to the father that the son for example is no longer the object of worship

53:32

We're told we're told the son is worshipped in Revelation chapter 5 What happens to where the son is no longer worthy of worship?

53:40

Is there every ever anyone who is worthy of true divine worship that ceases being worthy of true divine worship?

53:46

Well, of course not so so no, I I think there's many reasons to that would militate against Taking Theos and first Corinthians 15 20 is being solely

53:57

The father and not including the son in the spirit Okay, because the way it's understood by the

54:04

Joel's witnesses There's going to be a point in time where the glorification of Jesus is not going to be as Shall we say it's not going to stand out as much as it does right now

54:15

At least that's the way I understand it right now. There's a time when he's all glorified, which is right now

54:20

Of course, they believe they're in the Millennium right now or something Well, no, not exactly, but I understand what you're saying

54:27

Well, don't they believe that Jesus came back in the year 1914 and that we're in the Millennium or something? Well, the

54:33

Millennium will begin as I understand it with with Armageddon we are in the last generation

54:39

Before Armageddon takes place and yes, he returned invisibly in 1914, but they're doing their best

54:46

To downplay that particular point right now So that they can quite honestly, they are very very clearly

54:56

Laying the foundation for the abandonment of their 1914 prophecy They're getting ready to get rid of it they are

55:04

Diminishing it in their in their materials and they're really Priming their people.

55:11

It's it's I think they actually somewhere somewhere in the headquarters there in Brooklyn, New York I believe they have laid out a year -by -year multi -year plan for the abandonment of the 1914 prophecy and replacing it with another system of Belief that will spiritualize those things even more than they already are

55:36

Well, remember initially it was 1874 so they already changed at once and They as you know, if you've read

55:46

Raymond Franz's book, they actually voted A number of years ago more than 20 years.

55:52

Well somewhere around 20 years ago or more I forget the exact date on Changing 1914 to the date in the 1950s when the

56:02

Russian Sputnik was launched and it actually got a Majority of votes of the governing body, but not the two -thirds majority required to make a new belief in essence

56:12

And so yes, it's very obvious to me that they know that the generation that saw the events of 1914 is very aged now and They are beginning to change their perspective so as to bring in new classes and They've changed their organization last year

56:32

Not only to protect themselves from the French lawsuits But also I think to allow for association of non -anointed members with the anointed class in the governing body, etc, etc

56:46

In the watchtower organization today, I know that there was a book and I read this in CRI some time ago where they had

56:56

Written a book some Jehovah's Witness wrote a book with feuding Protestant books on the doctrine of the deity of Christ.

57:02

It was mostly I don't have the book I wish I could get it all but it's a book that was mostly responding to Ron Rhodes's book

57:09

Yes, it's a book by Mr. Stafford is his name and It is called

57:18

The watchtower the what yes, I do the watchtower defended an answer to scholars and critics and There's actually been more than one

57:30

Edition of it that has come out because I mentioned it in the Forgotten Trinity So there's a new edition that I haven't seen much of it

57:39

I mean I own it, but I didn't see a whole lot of references to what I had said But there are a few additions to it as well and in fact,

57:46

I presented a paper on Stafford's book at the Evangelical Theological Society national meeting in Orlando in 1998 and It's a fascinating fact that he's being allowed to do what he's doing

58:02

Back in the I believe late 70s early 80s a fellow by last name of Hess was a disfellowship from the

58:11

Society for similarly writing a book in defense of the Society The charge was running ahead of the brethren and the

58:21

Society has always kept a very close Control over its apologetic methodology

58:27

You have to when you're changing your theology with regularity and you've got to come up with new excuses for your failed prophecies

58:33

You've got to keep that a centralized affair You can't let your folks go running around coming up with their own excuses because those excuses may be really bad ones

58:40

And so they've always kept a very tight rein on that kind of thing You never ran ahead of what

58:46

Brooklyn told you to do. Well Stafford is doing that and so far has been allowed to do that without any type of punishment from up above and I said back in 1998 if this continues on And he's allowed free reign to do this without any kind of response.

59:06

Then this is going to signal a change in the Decision -making process in the governing body and a recognition that because of such things as the

59:16

Internet We said that the society simply cannot protect its people from the information that's out there

59:23

I mean Stafford's book cites from Ron Rhodes and Bowman's work directly quoting books that would be considered

59:35

Apostate And be a considered apostate literature Well, not specifically those would be the literature of active opposers, but it's painfully obvious that Stafford and his others his other minions are well aware of the writings of former

59:53

Jehovah's Witnesses as well and That you know, so that's that's a big issue

01:00:00

Do you have any colors on Waiting, I'm sorry. Do I honestly don't know

01:00:06

Okay, because I had a couple of things on that number one. Is there any way

01:00:12

I could get my hands on Stafford's book? and two Would it in any way be possible for you to get in the ring with this guy and debate him?

01:00:23

Well a couple things. Yeah, you can I mean just look up Greg Stafford on Amazon. I'm pretty certain that it is available that's where I got mine anyways, and We have contacted him in the past His minions love to come into the chat room and remind us that At one point in the past.

01:00:40

I had contacted him and he had agreed to do a written debate on Soteriology problem was it was supposed to be written to ban soteriology between myself a

01:00:51

Armenian a Roman Catholic a Mormon and a Jehovah's Witness and we can only get a few of those people put together

01:00:57

I think it'd still be really worthwhile doing I've still got a few of the people that I think would be willing to do it

01:01:03

I simply can't do it right now. I have five chapters in three different books plus Two different books to write by next spring.

01:01:13

I'm not gonna get them all done My time is is completely gone unfortunately, and it's very very difficult to Find time these days, but it would be worthwhile to do someday

01:01:24

Maybe if if life gives me the opportunity I would But we had contacted him once at the time.

01:01:31

We weren't exactly sure who he was because for a while he and A number of other

01:01:38

Jehovah's Witnesses posted in America online under a single name. I always wondered when

01:01:43

I took this particular Screen name on back in AOL how it was that they could produce volumes of response so quickly well

01:01:53

It's you know basically in essence was because they had four or five or six different people responding and So that you know gives them the advantage but he was contacted about doing a debate and he established all sorts of There had to be an equal number of Jehovah's Witnesses and non

01:02:16

Jehovah's Witnesses in the audience It'd have to be limited like 50 people on each side and and there'd be all this this

01:02:21

Stuff and of course the people who want to put on the debate Had no interest in that they wanted to bring as many people in as they possibly could and make it as widely distributed as they

01:02:31

Possibly could so it was decided that that that just simply wasn't wasn't worthwhile or reasonable at all

01:02:37

So that was the last time that there's been any serious discussion discussion about doing it Wow It would be very good because I remember when

01:02:46

Walter Martin was alive He just couldn't get one to get on you know on a panel and And do it with them on a formal debate the way he did it against father

01:02:55

Mitchell Parkland on anchor bird show right and that's that's the normative issue with Jehovah's Witnesses is that they don't have

01:03:04

Official representatives are gonna do that kind of thing and I really wondered just how free

01:03:10

Greg Stafford would be to do that. He keeps pushing the Boundaries shall we say and You know

01:03:21

I just wonder at what point the the whips come come out and Maybe that'll be when it is.

01:03:30

I don't know. I really I really do not know There may be a possibility of something like that coming in the future to be honest with you right now

01:03:38

My focus is going to be looking I can tell that my focus could be moving very quickly to this ever -growing pile of Islamic books at my right at my right hand

01:03:49

Because that's where a lot of the attention is lying right now though. Those are not necessarily separate issues

01:03:56

You know if they bring up a lot of the same issues. We do have another caller coming in Johnny, so I appreciate your call today

01:04:03

Already all righty. God bless eight six six eight five four sixty seven sixty three let's go up to the cool climb of Denver and talk with Randy hi

01:04:14

Randy Hey, it's not all that cool here right now. Oh, I'm sorry although with the daylight savings time change

01:04:19

You threw me off, and I missed the first hour of the show of course. I'm sorry but No one changed the time

01:04:27

We have been here at two o 'clock Mountain Standard time every Saturday when we're on and I think it is simply parafusin to use the

01:04:38

The biblical phrase against nature to fiddle with time Time is created by God, and I really think that everyone else should just simply leave their clocks alone well

01:04:48

You know as my dad always said it was just created so politicians had an extra hour for golf

01:04:54

Okay, I ran into something and surprised me recently. I've been in a little discussion with a friend of mine.

01:05:01

Who's a Actually has a master's in theology, and we're discussing some of these finer points of Calvinism and Armenian ism me being a convert

01:05:09

Thanks to Potter's freedom and him not being there yet, but We were talking about the nature of the

01:05:15

Trinity, and I used the definition they used in the book to talk about you know three persons and in one being and he actually accused me of Defending a modalist view of that which surprised me

01:05:27

He was claiming it was an antinomy of three Three beings in one being and I said no it's three persons in one being and and I wondered if you'd ever heard that Referred to as a modalist view before it seemed very strange

01:05:39

What what school gave this person a master's degree in theology? Well one of the more famous ones where Ryrie study

01:05:47

Bible might Which that's that's that's sad no

01:05:52

No, I haven't there. There certainly is no school of theology that would misunderstand

01:06:00

Something is as simple as that But sadly I would say that Many people can go through Fine programs at least fine from from the the perspective of of the world today and While that should have been covered and covered well and hopefully with a little bit of passion in Systematic theology

01:06:31

I hate to tell you Randy in many many many schools today Well, it's not that it's just overlooked

01:06:37

Systematic theology has become a Class in church history about what people used to believe and what

01:06:48

I mean by that is since the view of the Bible as a consistent divine revelation has been abandoned in the vast majority of Theological institutions the idea that the

01:07:04

Bible is sufficient to lay a foundation for a systematic Theology sad strange little man

01:07:14

I thought I had turned my my sounds off. I guess they they they turn back on But some oops that I had turned them off and it's it's it's it

01:07:24

Anyways, I every time I try to make a really good point today something happens. I'm I'm getting frustrated

01:07:30

Anyways, your territory's not being enlarged you know I I saw the secrets of the vine sitting right next to the

01:07:39

Checkout stand at Barnes & Noble today, and I was just I just couldn't believe it Anyways in the vast majority of theological institutions the view of Scripture has degraded so much

01:07:50

That the idea that you can derive a systematic theology is no longer believed hence biblical theology and systematic theology are seen as completely separate things in In fact most who are trained in seminaries today would be taught that you cannot determine a

01:08:08

Pauline theology But if you could it would be certainly different than a James Ian theology, which would be different than a

01:08:13

Petrine theology Etc. Etc. Etc. So since the view is the scripture is this this dis consonant?

01:08:21

Group and that even Paul changed in his views over time and so that you can you can have

01:08:27

Paul's Galatian period beliefs and Paul's Ephesian period beliefs and all the rest that stuff then what has happened is systematic theology has lost its central place as Being an explication of the faith and it's become a church history class where well this group in early church history believed this about the

01:08:48

Trinity and this group believed this about the Trinity and I remember very clearly when

01:08:53

I did my first master's at Fuller and I did it in an extension seminary Which means an extension center where it's much more conservative

01:09:02

But even then in the systematic theology class It was purely history and I remember very clearly a lawyer friend of mine who was taking a class with me

01:09:11

We were walking over to get a snack during the break and he said well, that's all very interesting But what do we believe about that and that really stuck with me?

01:09:20

Because it really demonstrates what was going on there and so you can you can get I can guarantee you that the people who got a master's of divinity degree in at Fuller that the result that there was many of those people who stood there at their

01:09:38

MDiv who could not have given you a Meaningful doctrine of the of the Trinity either from history or sadly more importantly from their own personal profession and that's

01:09:50

That's just the the fact of the matter. That's what we faced today. It is disappointing when you you know, look around and see the

01:09:57

You know, there's so many resources available at the Internet and computers and all that that people just don't care to educate themselves

01:10:05

That pursuit is not there. Well, you know, it's even sadder than that I think is that you know for many people who are ministers within our

01:10:15

Educational system. It's not that they don't desire to educate themselves it's that we distract them with so many classes on issues like church growth and Utilizing this kind of program and that kind of program we so Distract them with all this stuff.

01:10:35

That isn't actually even a part of their actual

01:10:41

Responsibilities before God that the result is they are then ignorant of these basic things

01:10:47

Even when they stand there with their master's degree Hey, can I make one little plug on my website?

01:10:53

I do have a new article. You need to read about Britney Spears and j -biz There's a juxtaposition for you.

01:10:59

No pictures, so it is safe But yeah, we don't want any pictures of the j -biz book out there

01:11:09

But it's content for the faith of the numeral four so content numeral for the faith org

01:11:14

I follow the links to the Britney article and You get the modern modern girl in the ancient obscure guy who's gotten famous along with her and a few people have enjoyed it

01:11:26

So I thought I'd try to get a little plug out there So you went to the big show to do it well be ready for dozens of hits

01:11:37

Maybe I should make up a t -shirt for ETS. That's coming up here in a couple weeks. Yes, I'm all booked

01:11:42

I'm going to the whole thing and I'll give you the report and whether Any of them are are more humble than last time you went.

01:11:48

Well, I'll be I know a number of folks who are going and thankfully, I've been able to meet some really neat folks who will be going but Still I I just have a hard time dragging myself over there.

01:12:01

I hope there's a change. I really do Well, I'm looking forward to seeing Bruce here and Bruce where yes

01:12:07

I got to speak with him in Lynchburg and My copy of God's lesser glory is now autographed is yours speaking speaking of which

01:12:17

I did place an order Where I ordered another copy of Potter's freedom Requesting that you assign it as we talk, but I don't know if that ever got through to you

01:12:26

So I'm wondering will it it's gonna show up here this week unsigned again, and I have no idea

01:12:33

Signed one in the last week or two. Oh man, well, I've Yes, it did.

01:12:39

What is yes, it did mean I I signed it. I mean rich signed it for you. Yeah Famous Faking signatures,

01:12:48

I'm I'm sick rich is not the fastest typist on the planet. So I'm saying it's on its way Okay, I know it's on its way.

01:12:54

But was it signed by moi is is the question that I'm asking Yes, it was signed by moi.

01:13:00

He says I signed it Wow, so I can freely give away I can use free will to give away my first copy

01:13:06

You can do so and hang on to the the second one I'll store it on my bookshelf right next to my signed copy chosen, but free.

01:13:13

There you go. There you go In fact, I'm glad you remind me of that. I promised to send dr. Ware The guy who justifies and I hadn't done it.

01:13:22

So I'll see and I got that signed already. So I beat dr Where to that? Well, he was gonna try to buy it there and they sold out of it

01:13:28

You know, you know that that's one good reason to go to ETS. Is that black books 50 % off everything?

01:13:34

Oh, no kidding Yeah, they had a whole catalog with the program Baker Academic and a whole bunch of other publishers everything's 50 % off at the show including

01:13:43

John frames new one an open theism I picked that up from Cumberland and Lynchburg at the

01:13:49

Founders Conference and have you read it? I haven't had a chance to yet. Are you kidding? I spent all last week with Steve camp, man

01:13:54

I'm just lucky I survived the trip man. That's all there is to it. So anyways, thank you very much, sir

01:14:00

God bless You know, it's tough at this particular point in time

01:14:06

What do you do with with eight minutes you could say yeah I don't think we have any other callers online eight six six eight five four six seven sixty three not really gonna have a whole lot of time to bring somebody on and I got halfway through the discussion of of the divine persons let alone getting to the issue of the the deity of Christ and The person the

01:14:26

Holy Spirit and stuff like that. It's a little bit difficult to sneak those particular topics in there, but good questions good calls as as normal and You know,

01:14:36

I'm not really sure why the folks in the in the chat channel Who some of whom are just brilliant on the theological level will not to lend their their insightful questions

01:14:49

To to the program. And in fact, there's one fellow and there was talking about how he Norman Geiser is coming out of the book on open theism.

01:14:59

Oh boy. Now that should be fascinating The Battle forgot well

01:15:07

He already came out with a book on on process theology and In fact,

01:15:14

I'm looking for it here Someone in the in the NA going over 90 minutes. Yeah. Thanks Steph.

01:15:19

I appreciate that I'm wondering if the fellow there in if Titus there in the chat channel is

01:15:27

Talking about a new book or the book that he put out with Bethany house a while ago And I'd be really interested in How Geisler would respond open theism?

01:15:37

Because of his because of the indefensibility of is a predeterminately knowing knowingly predetermining type stuff so That would be fascinating that that absolutely would be fascinating.

01:15:50

But yes the person to whom I was referring just typed In the chat room and there are other folks in the in the chat room as well who have deep deep

01:16:00

Insights that they could share with us, but but for for some reason they they just don't don't want to help me even though some of them know that today

01:16:10

I Have been coughing a lot and and today

01:16:15

I'm actually sitting here with a with a patch over my eye and and Everything's fuzzy and but still will they call in?

01:16:22

No. No, they won't call it. It's terrible Just just you find out who your friends are.

01:16:27

That's all I can say you find out who your friends are You know right now. I want to go to an In -N -Out burger. That's what I want to do No, actually,

01:16:33

I don't because I don't like In -N -Out burgers Anyways, I have no idea what I'm talking about Now, I think the painkillers from the last eye operation just kicked in and I don't not really sure where in the world

01:16:43

I am for those of you who are wondering I am proud to announce that this morning

01:16:49

I tested 2020 On my right eye some of you know that I had continuing eye surgery this past week.

01:16:57

It was not fun in any way shape or form my left eye is still totally wonky to utilize a term that we utilize in the in the chat channel and But the doctor does assume that within a couple weeks it will turn around and all will be well

01:17:17

But thanks to those of you who have prayed about that, but no thanks to those of you who could have called in today

01:17:24

Had deep insights. I mean, there's one person the chat channel has deep insights on Church history and the doctrine of the

01:17:31

Trinity, but that person did did not call in and there are techno geeks There in the channel who likewise could call in.

01:17:39

I'm not really sure what they'd say But they would sound very smart when they said it no matter what it was and but they don't call

01:17:46

People who have have initials like en that's that don't that don't don't ever call in and it's just Ah Anyways, thank you

01:17:59

CDS for sharing that 20 divided by 20 equals 1 That's that's very very helpful.

01:18:04

I really appreciate that. Well, anyways, I think what we're going to go ahead and do I I do not know what my

01:18:12

Arrangements are gonna be next week. I think I will be here I know that I'm gonna be speaking at Westminster Seminary on Monday and Tuesday of not this coming week

01:18:20

But the week thereafter, but I think I will be here on Saturday. And if I am

01:18:27

I think what we'll probably do is finally get around to doing the

01:18:32

King James only presentation starting it anyways and Excuse me

01:18:39

Where's the the cough buttons on my left and that's the side where I've got the patch on I can't see it

01:18:45

It's just I was I was reaching for it over there. I See it. Oh, there it is

01:18:51

Anyhow, we'll do the King James only presentation I still have my email program set up to send you the

01:18:59

The presentation in PowerPoint. I don't know why in the world I do that because no matter how many times

01:19:05

I tell people to make sure that their System can accept a three megabyte file attachment people always send me requests and they bounce back to me

01:19:16

So those of you who have it you'll enjoy it those of you don't well, I don't know I think you just put in a

01:19:24

V 1611 in the subject line My system will send it to you and for about 70 % of those of you who do it.

01:19:30

It will bounce back to me But that's that's just life and we will do the King James only presentation

01:19:38

Oh AOM in's giving me his speaking schedule well And for for everyone in the

01:19:45

East Valley, we want everyone to know that AOM in and we'll just go with that.

01:19:51

We won't even tell you the person's name AOM in will be at Reformation Fellowship on Sunday, November 25th, and That will help you all to do something there.

01:20:00

Yes AV 1611 is the thing you put in the subject line Man yeah, okay,

01:20:08

I can barely read that My sights going it's getting really bad. So why don't we just shut this thing down?

01:20:14

why don't you start start that music out there and Let's let's there you go. Let's get the applause in here.

01:20:20

I've done the best I can do and we'll We'll go from there. Oh Someone's a nick of bozo killer now all of a sudden has a deep in -depth the subject to ask about God's foreknowledge

01:20:32

But you know what? It's hard to talk to someone named bozo killer on important things, but I'll do my best

01:20:37

Thanks for listening today, I think I stayed sane during most of it and only lost it right at the end And that's a good thing.

01:20:43

We'll see you next week. Bye The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

01:21:20

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01:21:26

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