WWUTT 1120 Q&A Hatmaker, Lucado, and Chan, Oh My?

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What was it that Jen Hatmaker and Max Lakato said about unity?

00:05

What did Francis Chan say about the Lord's table? And did the early church fathers teach transubstantiation?

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The answers to these questions when we understand the text. This is

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When We Understand The Text, a daily Bible study in the word of Christ. That we may have the mind of Christ, unified and growing together in love.

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Find all our resources online at www .utt .com. Here once again is

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Pastor Gabe. Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. And one of those resources, a brand new book.

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Oh yes, that is right. 2019 Year in Review. It is available on Kindle and in print.

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You could just do a search for 2019 Year in Review, I don't know how many books are going to come up.

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Here, let me try that right now. Of course, with me, with my search history, it's probably going to bring my book first.

01:02

Well, of course, naturally. 2019 Year in Review on Amazon.

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And yeah, it comes up right away. So of course, you're looking for the one that's by Gabriel Hughes. Naturally.

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There are a couple of other 2019 Year in Review sorts of things. But mine is

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Christian Headlines. That's right. And I have a question today. One of our questions today has to do with the book.

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So I'm already getting responses from the book. Oh wow, that's awesome. So thanks so much for reading. But you can pick it up.

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Like I said, I wanted to make it cheap. The paperback, I couldn't sell for less than $6 .29

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because of how much it costs to print. So $6 .29, that's what it costs you for paperback.

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But for Kindle, I'm still true to my word, it's $0 .99. Awesome. $0 .99

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to read it on Kindle. So get the 2019 Year in Review. About half of it is stuff that I wrote in blog form last year.

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And I want to try to be more diligent about that this year so that way when I get to the end of the year. It'll be a little simpler to put it together.

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I can just grab my blogs and kind of whittle that down. Each article is about 600 words.

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There are a few that are a little bit shorter than that. But that would be a good, it's like 600 to 1 ,000 words.

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So it'd be a good cutoff point even for myself to try to discipline myself for just 1 ,000 words. Don't try to go 3 ,000.

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Yeah. Because I had to take that Francis Chan article, which was 3 ,000 or 4 ,000 words and cut that down. Yeah, I remember that.

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I don't think it went 4 ,000. I think it was about 3 ,000. But I had to cut that down. Anyway, it's that chapter in particular that is one of our questions we're going to get to today.

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Being the Friday edition of the broadcast, we're taking your questions via email when we understand the text at gmail .com.

02:48

Before getting to that though, mentioning that we're going to be in Atlanta next week. Yes, we are.

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For G3. Yeah. We get there on Monday. The conference doesn't even start until Thursday.

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Right. But I'll be there for the expository class Tuesday and Wednesday, which, let's see,

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Vodie Bakum I know is leading that and Tom Buck and Derek Thomas.

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I don't know if there's anybody else I'm missing in there. But that should be a great class. For you. For me.

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Right. And then Becky and Sonia are going to hit the town. Yeah, something like that. Oh, hey, look, I got a review already on my book.

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Yeah, I saw that. You didn't? No, I didn't. I didn't notice that. Four stars. That's OK. I'd give it about four stars, too.

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I appreciated this recap of the top stories of 2019 from a Christian perspective. Scripture is interspersed throughout the book.

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And Pastor Gabe points the reader to Christ, our only hope. Thank you so much. That is awesome.

03:43

There you go. Very short and simple review. Still four stars with that much positivity. But like I said,

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I would also give it four stars. So yeah, check out 2019 year in review. I mean, it's kind of dated.

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Yeah. So first of all, the book is dated. Sorry, I couldn't help it.

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You're right. It was old 10 days ago. You know, it's just it's coming on.

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Yeah, that's right. We're not in 2019 anymore. I'm sorry.

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Boy, you totally tickled yourself over that. Well, I was trying not to and then I just, I couldn't.

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So now it's coming out with all those giggles. Okay, I'm better. It was perfect. I am composed.

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Perfect reason for the book to be only four stars. It's because it was, it's old. It's dated.

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It's a dated book now. I wrote an old book. My new book is old. It's as old as soon as it came out.

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That's right. It's old as soon as, yeah. I said that wrong. It's as old as, yeah. You were close enough. I was close.

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So anyway, G3 next week. Yes, G3, okay. So we have a booth. Look for us. Yes. In the exhibition hall.

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We will have flash drives. In fact, I have them right here next to me. Yeah. So the flash drives will have.

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Lord willing. Lord willing. Right. Yes. We have these eight gigabyte flash drives, which will contain every what video?

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About 300 videos. Pretty close to that anyway. And I don't even know what we're going to price these at.

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I was talking $25, 30, something like that. I'm obliging myself to a price now.

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I'm talking about. You are. So if you come by our booth and you want all the videos on a flash drive, we'll have them for you.

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Plus the book and 25 Christmas myths and 40 Mormon beliefs and what the

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Bible says. Those three books will be out there. 40 of the most popular Bible verses and what the

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Bible says. Was that the name of my book? 40 of the most popular Bible verses and what they really mean.

05:47

That's what it was. That's right. Yeah, that's it. I don't remember my own, the title of my own book. That one's not going to be there because I'm having to rewrite and republish it on Amazon.

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Right. So because my previous carrier is not going to be able to carry it anymore. So anyway, that book won't be there, but the other three that I've done will be there.

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We have anything else? Brochures? I was going to say. Yes. Yes. So we'll have some information for folks who have never heard of what before and be able to give them a brochure.

06:16

If you know what we are, don't take the brochure. Okay. Let it be for the people who've never heard of us before.

06:23

Okay. So. I was thinking of, they would hand it to a person who hadn't heard of us. Well, that would be okay too.

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It's whatever. As long as you're going to hand it to somebody who needs to know about what.

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What were we talking about? I'm still on subject, right? We're G3, yes. G3. Okay.

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We're still on subject with G3. So next week. Looking to see you there. Looking forward to seeing you there in Atlanta.

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And are we going to prerecord podcasts or are we going to just take the week off and be at G3?

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Well, we could do like what we did last time. So we'll record one on the way down and we'll have

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Sonya with us. We will. I'm not sure she's going to want to. We'll finally get Sonya on the broadcast.

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So we can record that while we're driving like we did before because we'd be talking in theology anyway, no matter what.

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So send your questions if you'd like. If you've got some quick questions that we could respond to in route to G3, send it to –

07:23

I just hope we don't get hung up on traffic like we did. Yeah. Well, hey, when we hit those dead stop construction zones and stuff like that, we can talk theology.

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Yeah, but anyway. When we understand the text at gmail .com

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or drop a question on Facebook underneath this video link, I'll try to look for them and oh, you know, we had those other questions when you put on Twitter and we were supposed to go back through and respond to those and I haven't done that.

07:54

You dropped the ball. I did. So I could go grab those questions, the rest of the Twitter questions we didn't answer.

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So yeah, drop us some questions. We'll respond to them on the way. That'll become the broadcast for next week. And then questions that we take while we're there because we had folks fill out note cards.

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Yeah, that was fun. And do a giveaway. Those questions we'll respond to then on the way back and that'll be the next week's broadcast.

08:18

All right. So there you go. Hope to see you at G3. Now then, let's get to questions.

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So I got a few questions. I don't have a question right in front of me here, but I did get a few comments from some folks asking if I had heard the conversation between Jen Hatmaker and Max Licato.

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And he talked about like equality and unity with Jen Hatmaker. Okay. And so there are people asking, did you hear about this?

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I mean, is Max Licato gone off the deep end? Folks, Max Licato was here a long time ago.

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Here? He's where he's at now. Got it. Okay. It's not like the thing that he did by appearing on Jen Hatmaker's broadcast and saying, hey,

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I love you, Jen. And we're brother and sister in the Lord. Because in case you don't know Jen Hatmaker.

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Yeah. I think we should explain who these people are just in case. So very popular person. She had a, didn't she have a, one of those reality

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TV shows? Oh, that I don't know. I don't, I don't have any idea. Come on.

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You're like the, the homemaker and you're supposed to know all this stuff. Sorry.

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Not like that. Okay. So yeah, not in the sense that she's watching all the HGTV shows.

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So she had an HGTV series, Your Big Family Renovation. Ah, okay.

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And has a New York Times bestselling book For the Love. See, I knew she had the book, but I didn't know she had the

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TV show. So back in 2016, she was featured in,

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I can't even remember what publication this was. If it was the Atlantic or Christianity Today, I'm pretty sure it was

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Jonathan Merritt that did the interview with Jen Hatmaker. One of the questions that he asked her about was her views on LGBT marriage, like same sex marriage.

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And she declared that same sex marriages were holy in the eyes of God. This was all back in 2016 and Lifeway Christian Resources decided to discontinue selling her books.

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Okay. They yanked all of her books off the shelf after that. But I mean, Beth Moore has expressed solidarity with Jen Hatmaker.

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So this isn't anything new, especially for Max Licato to come out and express this love that he has for this gal.

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Well, he's appearing on our podcast, so of course he's got some sort of affinity for Jen Hatmaker. But yeah, he said some things, and by the way,

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Max Licato, popular for many, many feel good Christian books. Oh, yeah. Tons.

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But was a pastor in the Church of Christ. That's where he originates from. So there's all sorts of theological problems with the

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Church of Christ anyway. And then when he stepped away from being pastor and then became pastor again, he was pastor at Bill Heibel's Church at Willow Creek.

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So I mean, Max Licato has never been a bastion of sound doctrine or sound theology.

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But you do have some statements in this interview that I think are pretty reflective of the way people feel about unity.

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We can agree to disagree on something like same sex marriage, which we can't. I mean, if you're advocating for that, you're advocating for something that God has promised he will judge by sending a person to hell.

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You're encouraging people in damnable sin, which frankly is heresy. Because when you talk about heresy being the teaching of doctrine that's damnable, then that's what you're doing when you tell somebody that LGBTQ is fine.

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And somebody who is gay can be a Christian. So in 1 Corinthians 6, 9 through 11, we have,

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So it states plainly that they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

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So we should not under any circumstance encourage or permit or even just passively to a person who is practicing things that God has promised he will judge with fire.

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That is not at all loving of the other person. No, that's like watching them go up in a flame.

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If you have crucified the old self, if the old is dead and gone, and you've been clothed in the righteousness of Christ, and you are being remade after the knowledge of the image of your creator, as Paul says in Colossians 3, then that old person's gone.

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You're not clinging to the passions of your flesh and continuing to identify yourself by those things.

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You are now identified by Christ and in pursuit of God are becoming more godly, which means less and less these sinful worldly passions.

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And if we love somebody, that's what we're going to encourage someone to not permit them to continue in this immorality that is going to end badly for them if they do not repent.

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So in this conversation between Jen Hatmaker and Max Lakato, they're just,

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I mean, both of them are just basically celebrating, yeah, a person can be LGBTQ and we can still be unified.

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Romans 1 .32, which says to us, though they know

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God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them, but give approval to those who practice them.

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And Jen Hatmaker and Max Lakato even heap condemnation on themselves with some of the things they're saying in this conversation.

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Right. Two days ago, I went to downtown San Antonio to have lunch with a pastor of a downtown church that is caught up in the controversy over whether or not to have gay marriages.

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And so they've landed on the side of yes, they will, they will have gay marriages.

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And they have about 200 active members. But listen to this, they feed about 800 homeless people a week, about 800 homeless people a week.

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Now, I didn't go online to see what is said about this church in social media.

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I would imagine it's not always positive because of the stance they've taken on gay marriage.

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Well, I was with him and meeting their staff and walking through their building. That topic never came up.

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I was just fascinated and humbled at their ability to care for the homeless and the poor.

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And we connected right there. We connected right there. And there's fellowship there.

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There's fellowship. Does that make sense? Oh, 100 percent. I mean, if anything has ever been clear in scripture, as we like to say that everything is, it's that our part of our faith community's responsibility is to care deeply for the poor and for the marginalized and hurting in our communities.

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Yes, of course, there's fellowship around that. All Jen Hatmaker and Max Lakato are doing here is giving a person a comfortable seat on the way to hell.

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So we're supposed to just believe, hey, all these people are Christians because they're feeding 800 homeless people. But at the same time, encouraging this church, which believes in gay marriage and according to what

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Max Lakato was saying, there is even practicing gay marriage, but they're feeding the homeless.

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So it's OK. No, it just doesn't make sense to me how the Bible can be so clear on these things.

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And yet people are so confused still and refuse to believe it.

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Well, here's what Paul says in Philippians chapter three, starting in verse two. Look out for the dogs.

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Look out for the evildoers. Look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision who worship by the spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.

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What were Jen and Max doing there? Yeah. Putting confidence in their flesh. You're putting confidence in their own works.

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Skipping down to verse 17. Brothers, join in imitating me and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us, for many of whom

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I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.

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Their end is destruction. Their God is their belly and they glory in their shame with mindset on earthly things.

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But our citizenship is in heaven. And from it, we await a savior, the

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Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

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Jesus said, whoever is ashamed of me and my word, I will be ashamed of him on the day that I return in the glory of my father and of the holy angels.

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Amen, they can they can use the name of Jesus here, but they don't actually believe what

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Jesus has said or worship him as Lord because they are glorying in earthly sins rather than a heavenly kingdom in their church, in the church, not just in life.

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But, yeah, it's not just having friends in the world who are worldly. And so, therefore, they do worldly things.

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Right. We're having friends in the church that are doing worldly things. Yeah, that's just. But this is

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I mean, this is do they pick and choose or is it like on your Reftunes Reftunes calendar calendar up there?

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The Bible that's all blacked out. OK, so, yeah. So now I have to explain this since Becky has brought it up.

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So we got a Reftune up here and it says, hey, well, we got the

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Reftunes calendar. We ordered it back in twenty nineteen. Right. So I ordered two of them. I've got one in my study and Becky's got one upstairs on the fridge.

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So thank you so much, Reftunes, for this awesome calendar. Hey, I forgot my

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Bible. Do you have one that I could borrow? And the girl says, of course, I always carry a spare. Yeah.

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Why am I reading the girl's part? I don't know. I could let you read the girl's part. The boy says, wait, why is everything blacked out except God is love?

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I just think there shouldn't be so much negativity in there. So I put my marker to work.

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And then Charles Spurgeon says, the fact is we oftentimes read scripture thinking of what it ought to say rather than what it does say.

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And I thought that went perfectly. Well done, babe. Thanks. Good observation there. So, yeah, that goes that goes quite well with what

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Jen and Max are talking about here. Dare I go into more? No. Should I go into more here? Well, and and so I left thinking,

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OK, you know, I don't know. There's probably a lot of things that our churches that that where we're different, where we're different.

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Sure. And yet for for us to dismiss, blankedly dismiss large portions of our church family, again, getting back to point

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A, and that is we don't get a choice. He we worship the same God. That's right. And we would come to the same table.

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Yeah, we might practice our faith slightly differently on some things. And we're still all working it through, by the way.

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We're still working it through. But we got to applaud what what the different aspect when somebody is really living out their faith, we need to make a big deal out of that rather than where they then point out the areas in which we're different.

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If we can start doing that, we might begin getting around the table and talking through some of these things in a way that would be healthier.

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You know, Becky made an observation during these two clips that we just listened to.

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Mm hmm. Just talking about how he can't spit it out. He can't get to the point.

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He seems to be stuttering so much. Yeah. Honestly, I think the reason for that, he's never been an eloquent speaker anyway,

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Max Lakato. But I think the reason for that is because he's actually not confident in what he's saying.

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Yeah. And he knows there's a problem with it, but he's forcing himself to say it in the interest of unity.

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Right. We all just need to be able to come to the same table because this is what the public wants. So the vast majority.

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Yeah. So pleasing men instead of pleasing God. Yeah. And if you surround yourself with people like that, that's all you hear.

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So you you think that, of course, it's right. You know, why? How could it be wrong? But if you actually go back to scripture and read it, it's wrong.

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And that's kind of what I mean, that is what the

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Bible tells us is that we're going to be not majority, but minority. Right. What do we have in in Matthew seven, 13?

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Yeah. Enter by the narrow gate. Yes. For the gate is wide and the way is easy.

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That leads to destruction. And those who enter by it are few.

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No, there are many, many. Those who enter by the way of destruction are many. Yeah. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard.

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That leads to life. And those who find it are few. Matthew seven, skipping down to verse twenty one.

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Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. But the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven on that day, many will say to me,

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Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name?

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Like feeding 800. Yeah. Poor homeless people. Right. And then

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I will declare to them, I never knew you depart from me. You workers of lawlessness. Atheists can feed 800 poor people.

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Right. So true. The charity that we do will, of course, be a demonstration of the faith that we have.

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But that doesn't mean that only Christians will be doing those things.

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There are there are sinful, wicked people that are capable of doing things. We in our earthly viewpoint might otherwise call good.

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But Isaiah 64, six, even our best deeds are as filthy rags before a holy God. Right.

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It's not salvation. It's not evidence of of Christianity or saving faith.

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It's it's that fruit of the spirit or the fruit of the spirit. Yeah. It's just that wicked people can do good things every once in a while.

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But in their heart that it is it's still far from God. Right. So, yeah, exactly what

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Jesus said. You're you acknowledge me with your lips, but your heart is far from me. Right. For other people.

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That is a great story and a great example. I love it. You mentioned just a second ago something

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I'd like to hear you talk more about. You talked about kind of the big rocks. And I learned that you have what you say, three big rocks that sort of form the cornerstone of your faith and have helped you be happy in ministry and stay in harmony with God's church.

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That feels important right now. I with so much like kind of noise and everything swirling around at all times, everything.

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So everything just feels so tight and so volatile.

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It feels like kind of coming to something simple, finding a simplicity in our faith, sort of these through lines of the big things is really useful as as a great filter through which we can consider everything in front of us right now.

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So I wonder if you could talk about what those are, those big rocks to you. And have they always been the same or do they shift a little bit according to just the season of life and ministry you're in?

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How much time do you have for you all day, all day?

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So basically, where they're going here, what Jen Hatmaker is asking Max Lakeda to do, even though they can't ever seem to really use biblical or orthodox terms.

24:57

OK, but we'll substitute these terms for things that we'd like to say.

25:03

Yeah. Yeah. So essentially what she's asking him for is essential doctrines. Oh, I did not see that at all.

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I thought she was asking for like people who like helped him, you know, who he looks up to, who he reads a lot of, you know, like those kind of.

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OK, OK, OK, I'm following. So she's like, if we're going to boil it down to the essentials, what is it that we rock?

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Yes, the three rocks. OK, so I get that. What do we have to believe to therefore call ourselves

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Christians? So what they're wanting to do here, what Jen and Max are going to do is try to narrow Christianity down to these three basic tenets.

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And then everything else beyond this would therefore become a Christian liberty issue. OK. You know what

25:48

I mean by. No, I'm I'm kind of lost. Well, you had said it earlier off, Mike. OK, about like the non -essential things.

25:54

OK. So we can agree to disagree on some of these other things. Oh, right. OK. But these are the essential non doctrines.

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Right. To our Christian faith. That's where Max is going to go next, which, of course, he can't just say what they are.

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So he's going to tell this story. And I'm sorry for the length of the story. Becky's giving me a look hard.

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Well, we're talking about our list of non -negotiables, right? And I believe we've got to keep that list as tight and as brief as possible.

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It's great. What happened to me, the super short version is

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I was a mess when I came to Christ. I know some people say that, but I really was. You would not have wanted your daughter to go out with me.

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I was I was not a good man. When I was 20 years old, I came to faith.

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I decided I wanted to become a missionary and to get into Brazil as a missionary.

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You had to have a seminary degree. So I went and got a seminary degree. And in the midst of that seminary degree,

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I had a wonderful professor of New Testament. And the day that really this all crystallized for me was the day that he led us into an exercise in which he put a a target up on the back.

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Then we use blackboards. I know we don't anymore. But with chalk, he drew like you're, you know, an archer would use shooting at a target.

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And and he began asking us, what are the big issues of the

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Christian faith? Well, you get a bunch of seminarians talking about that. You know, it's it's going to be fun.

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So people were throwing up everything from the end times to a charismatic movement, to authority of the

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Bible, to role of women in the church, you know, just a variety of things.

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And so he made a list. And then he said, OK, now place which one of these goes on the bullseye.

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Which one of these is the core? Which one of these are the most important or which of these are absolutely essential for fellowship and and moving forward in faith?

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Now, there's a good question. Sure. Question. Well, he then we all try to place them around.

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But you know what? None of them made it to the center. None of them made it the center. He said, OK, so what goes on the center?

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And and as we're in this interview, I just opened my Bible to the passage. He had us open ours, too.

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And that's First Corinthians chapter 15. And this is the Apostle Paul. He said,

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I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me.

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Christ died for our sins, just as the scripture said. He was buried. He was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the scripture said.

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He was seen by Peter and then by the twelve and then more than 500 of the followers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.

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Then he was seen by James and later by the apostles. So so I think if the

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Apostle Paul had been in that class, he would have written death, burial and resurrection.

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Now, is that true? Are those essential tenants of our faith? Of course. Absolutely. They are.

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Yes. But here's what you don't get from that. Let me read it again. First Corinthians 15, three for I delivered to you as of first importance, what

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I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures.

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And then you have the statements of him appearing to the brothers and the apostles. So you have death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, according to what?

29:48

According to this, according to the scriptures. Like Lakato is missing something huge there.

29:54

Yeah, like all of this is according to the Bible. Yeah. Which is our authority.

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Right. How do we even know about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus? The Bible, according to the scriptures.

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Right. And so then also, according to the scriptures, you have teachings on new life that in Christ Jesus, the old is gone.

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The new has come. The old man is dead. The new is being remade after the image of our creator.

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And so in new life, we're no longer walking in our former sinfulness. We are walking in the righteousness of Christ.

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Paul states in Romans six, if you are still in the passions of your flesh, you can say,

30:38

I believe in Jesus till you're blue in the face. Right. If your life does not reflect that you have faith in Jesus, that he is your king to whom you bow and serve.

30:48

If your life doesn't evidence that you're still in your sins. Right. Doesn't matter what's coming out your mouth.

30:55

Right. You're still dead and enslaved to your sins. Folks, that's an essential doctrine.

31:00

It is. Sanctification is an essential doctrine. If you're not being sanctified, you are never justified.

31:07

Right. Those whom God justifies, he will also sanctify. And so Lakato is what he's saying here is true.

31:14

When it comes to the basics of our faith, we understand the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

31:21

But where in that did he say Jesus is God? Right. True. See, the statement, the statement that he read there from first Corinthians 15 is absolutely true.

31:32

And we should believe that as foundational to our faith. But we understand that Christ was crucified, was buried and risen again, according to the scriptures, because he's

31:44

God. And when Lakato narrows down the basics of our faith, everything else we can disagree on.

31:51

But these things we have to agree on. If we narrowed it down to what he just said there, then we never come to any understanding that Jesus is

31:58

God. Yeah. I just I have a problem with I don't know, like it just struck me as the gospel plus that you have previously used before.

32:11

I mean, like many times. Oh, yeah. Like adding to the gospel. Like it's not just gospel.

32:16

It's gospel plus works. Right. To be saved. Right. And so I don't know. It's just something about this conversation makes me think that I don't know if that's accurate.

32:26

Oh, yeah, I would say that that's what they're doing. Absolutely. Just based on everything that he said earlier about feeding the homeless.

32:33

And so that's what was kind of triggering me is back to that is the just the fact that he's he's adding works.

32:41

He's focusing on the works. Right. And specifically man's works. Right. Because sanctification is not our work.

32:48

It's God's work. Right. But we're going to evidence the work that God is doing in our lives in the way that we live.

32:54

Yeah. So I'm not telling you go out and do good things. And therefore, you're going to be a Christian. I'm saying that the good things that you do will evidence the fact that God is working in you to will and to work according to his good pleasure by what we read in Philippians.

33:07

Right. So, yeah, what they're saying is faith and works. They're saying you have to believe, but you also have to be doing this.

33:13

Right. They're definitely adding to the gospel. OK. In the conversation that happened. That's how I was what I was taken out of that.

33:19

I think you're I think you're accurate in that assessment. OK. By hearing hearing that is what they're saying. I'm trying to think of where he's going next after this.

33:29

How about we just play it? We'll find out. Sounds good. And place it right there in the core. Yeah. And that made that has simplified my faith,

33:38

Jen, for so many years. OK, hang on. I'm going to jump in. OK. All right.

33:43

So so you pointed out the fact that he left out in the scriptures. Right. Right. OK.

33:49

So the scripture is being the Bible being truth, being that's where we find.

33:54

It's God's word. Yes, it is. And so the just the fact that he left that out just speaks volumes on why he thinks it's

34:05

OK for homosexuality to be OK in the church. Right. Because the Bible is not his authority.

34:10

Right. Yes. Because if it was, then he would be reading that homosexuality is a sin and that it's not

34:16

OK to do that. That God will judge and exclude a person from the kingdom of heaven over that that big of a sin.

34:22

Right. Yes. So even as we were talking a moment ago about the works that we do will evidence our faith.

34:28

Well, the the works that we do will also evidence our lack of faith. So a person that is in sin of this kind of sexual immorality that continues in this sin and does not repent of it.

34:38

It's evidencing in their lives that they don't have the fruit of the spirit, but are still doing the works of the flesh.

34:44

Right. And and all of this comes back to unbelief. They really don't believe Jesus. Right. Matthew seven, they will say, didn't we do many mighty works in your name?

34:54

Yeah. And Jesus will say, I never knew you. Right. You didn't do it in my name. They just wanted to feel good or something.

35:00

That's right. I mean, I don't know. It was works righteousness. Yeah. So in Matthew 28, where we have the

35:06

Great Commission, verse 18, Jesus came to them and said, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

35:15

So if I were in on this conversation, I'd be looking at Jen and Max and going, do you believe that you believe all authority is

35:21

Christ's? So do you submit to that authority? And then verse 19, go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the

35:33

Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

35:40

Right. And lo, I am with you always to the very end of the age. The scriptures do not stop, start and limited to first Corinthians 15, three and four.

35:50

Right. Exactly. That's not, that's not even where we get the gospel from. Right.

35:55

That's just Paul narrowing it down to, I delivered to you as a first importance, what I received from Christ, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures that he was buried and he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, our assurance and understanding of these things is according to what the

36:13

Bible says. So this was, he just became a Christian. Okay. Like I'm trying to recap the story.

36:20

So he was just become a Christian. He wanted to become a missionary. So he went to this class. He was in a brand new

36:26

Christian. Well, I'm, I'm using Christian as he used. Yeah. He's, he's in seminary is what he's.

36:32

Okay. And this was a seminary class. Okay. And they had, they were, they were in first Corinthians 15.

36:38

Right. I did catch that, which is where the professor had told them to be. So then they narrow it down on the board.

36:44

Here's the essentials right here. Oh, look, there's the answer. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And as I've relayed before, when it comes to understanding essential doctrines,

36:52

I like the acronym or the acrostic rather that Hank Hanegraaff came up with but I've added an

36:58

S on the end of it, which Hank doesn't believe because he's Eastern Orthodox.

37:05

Right. But you use the word doctrines as an acrostic and it stands for deity of Christ, original sin, canon, which is short form for Bible.

37:15

Just understanding that the Bible is the word of God, inerrant and sufficient in everything that we need to know for matters of faith and obedience.

37:25

T is Trinity. R is resurrection. I is incarnation. N is new life.

37:33

Yeah. Because we're new, we're born again in Christ. So there has to be evidence of that.

37:39

And that is an essential doctrine. Then the E is eschatology or end times. And then the

37:45

S, which Hank Hanegraaff does not have on his acrostic, but I threw onto the end of it is salvation by grace through faith alone.

37:51

And as a Greek Orthodox, he doesn't believe that in salvation by faith alone.

37:58

So going on here, wait, yeah, cause Becky jumped in and rudely interrupted Max Lakato. My apologies.

38:05

So he's going on here to talk about all these people he's unified with now because of this very small gospel that he's created.

38:15

Because it has enabled me to have legitimate differences with people with whom

38:24

I have great respect and land in two different spots on very difficult issues, but still find ample room for fellowship and love and respect.

38:39

I think what we tend to do is we each create our own list of essentials and that list gets longer and longer and longer and longer and get so long that we look up and we say, nobody's on my list.

38:56

It should be the opposite. I think, I think I can find fellowship with the

39:02

Richard Rohr, right? We come from two entirely different worlds. But to your point, when that is what our faith is organized around, that's enough.

39:13

So I got to stop them there, even though, even though this is already just a massive train wreck and we're just kind of standing back and watching the wreckage burn.

39:22

Re -watching. At this point. So he makes this statement about the fact that he's unified with Richard Rohr.

39:28

Richard Rohr, in case you don't know, he is a rank heretic. Okay. He is one of the guys that Oprah pushes.

39:37

So that should tell you something right there. But he wrote this book called Universal Christ, where he basically makes this claim that everything is

39:44

Christ. And guys like Michael Gungor, I think even Rachel Held Evans, have loved and lifted up Richard Rohr.

39:52

He was talked about in the second part of the American Gospel series.

39:59

Right. I call it a series now because it's two movies. I don't know if Brandon Kimber is going to do any more.

40:04

I hope so. But they've been tremendous up to this point. So you know, American Gospel, Christ Alone, which came out a little bit more than a year ago.

40:12

And then just last month, Brandon came out with American Gospel, Christ Crucified.

40:18

Right. And one of the things that he sets up to defend primarily in this documentary is the doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement, that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, that he took the wrath of God upon himself when he died.

40:33

And see, that's something else. When Max Licato says he's narrowing down his understanding of doctrine to 1

40:40

Corinthians 15, 3 and 4, and he says, I delivered to you as of first importance what

40:46

I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures. Why? Yeah.

40:51

Why did he die? Like you're not even. And it's in accordance with the scriptures. So the scriptures will tell us why he died.

40:59

Exactly. It's in there. And because he doesn't understand that, because he's not coming to the scriptures for his understanding of the reason for Christ's death, the explanation of it, why we believe in it, why we must believe in it for our salvation.

41:14

Therefore, he unifies himself with a guy named like Richard Rohr, who is heretical in just about everything you can possibly believe about God.

41:23

Richard Rohr believes something heretical about it. Oh, my goodness. And Max Licato is saying that he stands in unity and even in admiration of this man.

41:32

Even though they come from really different or far different. How did he word that? Far different viewpoints or something.

41:40

Which is even way farther than he thinks. Unless, unless, of course, Max Licato is farther away from me than I think.

41:49

Which is the other possibility. But yeah, for Jen Hatmaker and Max Licato to sit there and go, we're brothers or Richard Rohr is a brother here.

41:59

That's see that alone. I mean, if I'm sitting in the room with him, I'm just laughing.

42:04

I'm going, guys, really? Wow. Are you serious? Have you read Richard Rohr?

42:12

That is painful. It is. And I mean, these people are leading tons of others astray.

42:18

Of course, we know that Jen Hatmaker has been doing that. Max Licato. Some people are surprised by this that's happened between Jen Hatmaker and Max Licato, that he's gone on her podcast and had this conversation.

42:30

I'm not. I don't mean to sound like I'm of higher knowledge than anybody else.

42:37

I'm not. I'm stupid on a lot of things. But in this particular issue, I'm just not surprised that Max Licato is teamed up and partnered with Jen Hatmaker.

42:47

Yeah, there's folks that are shocked by this, that he's even advocating for LGBTQ.

42:54

He's on a lot of I mean, he's written a lot of books and a lot of kid books and a lot of just everyday stuff.

43:03

His stuff is everywhere. Right. Which? Like doctor's offices and around here anyway.

43:09

Yeah. And everywhere. Just you can find it everywhere. I could see it being shocking just because it's like, oh, yeah, somebody is, you know, actually out there with all the

43:19

Bible verses and whatnot in it. Right. So, yeah. And he has this very basic gospel that he presents.

43:25

But now that we're in a conversation like this, where he's having to define what he believes a little bit more, we're discovering, wow, this is really terrible.

43:34

Yeah. And how long have you do your background work on the on the author before you attach yourself to them?

43:41

Yes. And you're tempted to say, how long has Max Licato believe this? Well, note that he's going to a story that goes all the way back to his seminary days.

43:49

All the way to the beginning. Yep. Yeah. So he's always been there. And like I said, I've known that because I've kept track of Max Licato for a long time.

43:57

But yeah. Anyway, so that's the conversation with Jen Hatmaker and Max Licato.

44:03

I'm not going to go into any more because we do want to get one more thing in here before we conclude. Yes. I spent way too long on that one than I thought we were going to chat it a little more than you thought.

44:13

Hey, I'm glad it's tough to get you to chime in sometimes, but you had some good points in there.

44:18

So Billy from L .A., although I didn't catch if this was Louisiana or Los Angeles. OK. But he says,

44:24

Pastor Gabe, I recently read your book 2019 Year in Review, where in the chapter about Francis Chan defending his relationship with false teachers, you said, quote,

44:33

I don't think of Chan as a heretic, but I do believe that if he does not turn back from his present course, he's going to move further away from his former orthodoxy and towards strange teachings, unquote.

44:44

How ironic when just days after you published this, Chan came out declaring that the church believed communion was the literal body and blood of Jesus for 1500 years.

44:55

I have two questions. First of all, given the video that came out from Francis Chan last week, and we're going to play that here in a moment,

45:02

OK, would you revise your statement that you don't think Francis Chan is a heretic? Second, how far off is he on this?

45:09

The Catholic Church claims that the early church fathers taught transubstantiation. What did the fathers teach about communion?

45:16

Well, let's talk about that after we listen to the statement that Francis Chan made on communion.

45:22

All right. Again, I'm not making any grand statements. I'm just saying I some of this stuff

45:28

I didn't know. I didn't know that for the first 1500 years of church history, everyone saw it as the literal body and blood of Christ.

45:40

And it wasn't till 500 years ago that someone popularized a thought that it's just a symbol and nothing more.

45:50

I didn't know that. I thought, wow, well, that's something to consider. And while I won't make a strong statement,

45:58

I will make a statement about this. Well, let me stop it there, because I don't know if we're going to. It's only a three and a half minute clip.

46:04

But I don't know if we'll get to the whole thing since we're coming close to the end of the program. OK. But, you know, the way the way he started and where I cut that off right there, he said,

46:14

I don't want to make a strong statement about that. This is a pretty strong statement. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

46:20

That's a weird qualification when he just said something pretty huge there. Yeah. That the church believed that communion was the literal actual body and blood of Jesus for 1500 years, which he's alluding to the

46:35

Protestant Reformation. He's saying the Protestant Reformation changed all of that. That's that's basically what he's saying there.

46:42

OK. So then Billy's question was, I'll answer his first question last.

46:48

But his second question was, how far off is he on this? The Catholic Church claims that the early church fathers taught transubstantiation or the belief that the priest, when he consecrates the mass, that the

47:01

Eucharist becomes the actual body of Jesus and the cup becomes his literal blood.

47:08

What did the the church fathers teach about communion? Well, I eat people.

47:17

Well, yeah, first of all, I mean, just logic alone. I mean, the

47:22

Bible says, you know, don't give don't don't do that kind of stuff like we just read about it.

47:29

Where was that? It was an axe, right? Don't eat people and axe.

47:34

It was like, don't drink the strangled blood. And oh, yeah, it's right, right, right. Yeah, because we just we just went over this.

47:43

We just went through this with our youth at church on Wednesday night. So that's what Becky's thinking of. Yeah. So that was the

47:50

Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. Yes. There we go. OK, I was stuck on that.

47:55

I'm tracking with your train of thought now. I'm so glad. Otherwise, I'm just speaking gibberish over here.

48:01

And don't mind me. Yes, folks. We're not little headhunters in pygmy tribes.

48:06

Oh, my goodness. Practicing cannibalism. Yeah, right. Yes, that is gross.

48:14

Don't do that. Just common sense dictates. This is a terrible rendering of what we understand the communion elements to be.

48:24

So what is it that the early church fathers taught on this? Well, thanks to Nathan Boosnitz out at the master's seminary for narrowing some of this stuff down for me, because he wrote an article called

48:34

Did the early church teach transubstantiation? And here he features a few quotes from some of the early church fathers.

48:42

So, first of all, Ignatius of Antioch in 110. Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ, which has come to us and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God.

48:54

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the

49:01

Eucharist is the flesh of our savior, Jesus Christ, flesh, which suffered for our sins and which that father in his goodness raised up again.

49:11

They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes. Here's Irenaeus in 202.

49:16

He took from among creation that which is bread and gave thanks, saying, This is my body, the cup.

49:23

Likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong. He confessed to be his blood. Tertullian 160 to 225.

49:31

The flesh feeds on the body and blood of Christ that the soul likewise may be filled with God.

49:37

Origin 182 to 254. Formerly in an obscure way, there was manna for food.

49:44

Now, however, in full view, there is true food. The flesh of the word of God, as he himself says, my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.

49:54

And then Augustine, who was in the fifth century, I promised you who have now been baptized, a sermon in which

50:02

I would explain the sacrament of the Lord's table, that bread, which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ.

50:10

That chalice or rather what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ.

50:18

So Nathan Bousnet says, how should we think about such statements? Obviously, there is no disputing the fact that the patristic authors made statements like the bread is the body of Christ and the cup is the blood of Christ.

50:30

But there is a question of exactly what they meant when they used that language. After all, the

50:35

Lord himself said, this is my body and this is my blood. So it is not surprising that the early church fathers echoed those very words.

50:44

But what did they mean when they used the language of Christ to describe the Lord's table?

50:49

Did they intend the elements to be viewed as Christ's literal flesh and blood, or did they see the elements as symbols and figures of those physical realities?

51:00

And then Bousnet gives two points. Number one, we ought to interpret the church father's statements within their historical context.

51:09

Number two, we ought to allow the church fathers to clarify their understanding of the Lord's table. So, for example,

51:15

Justin Martyr in 110 to 165 spoke of, quote, the bread which our

51:20

Christ gave us to offer in remembrance of the body, which he assumed for the sake of those who believe in him, for whom he also suffered and also the cup which he taught us to offer in the

51:31

Eucharist in commemoration of his blood. Not that it actually is his blood.

51:37

Right. Clement of Alexandria explained that, quote, the scripture accordingly has named wine the symbol of the sacred blood, unquote.

51:46

Origins similarly noted, quote, we have a symbol of gratitude to God in the bread, which we call the

51:52

Eucharist, unquote. So, again, as Nathan Bousnet points out, you will find statements from the early church fathers.

51:59

In fact, I'll say you'll find statements from me. Yeah. Saying that the bread is the body of Christ.

52:05

The cup is his blood. But then you'll also find statements from those fathers saying these are symbols.

52:11

Right. So was Francis Chan right? That the early church fathers or the church for 1500 years believed that communion became the literal body and blood of Jesus?

52:23

Absolutely not. They did not hold to the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation.

52:29

Nathan Bousnet says in conclusion in his article, to be sure, they often reiterated the language of Christ when he said, this is my bloody.

52:37

This is my bloody, bloody. It's blood and body together. That's what I thought. They especially use such language in defending the reality of his incarnation against Gnostic, Docetic heretics who denied the reality of Christ's physical body.

52:52

At the same time, however, they clarified their understanding of the Lord's table by further explaining that they ultimately recognize the elements of the

53:00

Lord's table to be symbols, figures which represented and commemorated the physical reality of our

53:07

Lord's body and blood. Jesus is absolutely with us when we partake in that table, but he's with us spiritually.

53:15

Right. He is not with us physically. And as my friend Allen Nelson said in response to this whole controversy, as it was stirring around online, he said the literal body and blood of Jesus is not present in the

53:29

Lord's table. Also, if you're taking the Lord's supper and Jesus is absent, you're doing it wrong.

53:36

Amen. He's not literally physically there, but he is with us spiritually.

53:42

Right. And we should recognize that that table is a symbol of unity that we have with Christ and with one another.

53:50

The body that was broken for us and the blood that was spilled for the forgiveness of sins, unity with God and with one another through Jesus Christ, our

53:59

Savior. So now Billy's first question, given the video that came out from Francis Chan last week, would you revise your statement that you don't think

54:07

Francis Chan is a heretic? I still don't have enough evidence yet to say Chan's a heretic. And this this, by the way, is just further evidence that if he does not repent of the trajectory that he's on, he's just going to fall further and further into more heterodoxy.

54:22

And then maybe at some point reveal himself to be a heretic. But as of yet, I don't have enough there to be able to say that.

54:29

Let's pray he doesn't. Amen. Let's pray and close out our program. All right. Heavenly Father, we thank you for our time together.

54:37

And and thank you for our listeners and the people that submitted questions to us today. I pray that I pray for somebody like Francis Chan, that somebody would get a hold of this guy and show him his errors and bring him back to a sound understanding of the gospel of Christ, according to your word, and that he would repent of these strange doctrines that he's flirting with and come back to the basics of the scriptures that he learned.

55:05

I mean, this guy is a graduate of Master's Seminary. He knows this stuff, but he's been clouded by worldly things.

55:12

Likewise, Jen Hatmaker and Max Lakato. And I pray that they would repent of their heresies and come to know the true

55:19

Christ, according to the scriptures, the whole word, which is sufficient to grow us in all manner of faith and obedience to our

55:27

Lord Jesus Christ, King of kings and Lord of lords. Be with us as we head to G3 next week.

55:34

May it be a wonderful conference teaching us further the the greatness of worshiping our

55:41

God and King. And it's in the name of Jesus that we pray. Amen. Amen. Let's see, where do

56:52

I need to be? Let's see. Philippians. Philippians, Deuce.

57:01

Right there. All right. Waiting for you to be done with your game. Well, I can't do a script anyway.

57:08

A little miss playing more video games than I do. Oh, whatever. You do.

57:14

Only because I have time in between. That counts as video games just because it's not on a console.

57:23

I know it counts as video games. I still count it. Yeah. So I I think collectively per month you play.

57:30

But what about Twitter? Don't you play that game a lot? That's not it. I'm not playing this game with you.

57:42

Anyway, I have substituted my time off of Twitter for the game. I have not added to.

57:47

There I am. Mike was coming apart here. All better. What about mine? It looks.

57:54

Yeah, that's because you're a little your phone. I'm a little. I'm a little. You're a little. I'm a little. This is when we understand the text, a daily

58:02

Bible study in the word of Christ that we may have a mind of God, the mind of God, of Christ.

58:08

Oh, my goodness. We may have the mind of Christ. There we go.

58:15

Daily Bible study in the word of Christ that we may have the mind of Christ. This is when we understand the text, a daily

58:24

Bible study in the word of Christ that we may have the mind of Christ. Unified.

58:31

Now, hang on. You said it. And then I'm like, oh, OK, I could do that. And then I'm like, wait a second.

58:36

Where is where I'm supposed to accentuate?

58:42

This has to do with what we're talking about. Like right at the very beginning. So. OK, so this is when we understand the text, a daily

58:49

Bible study in the word of Christ that we may have the mind of Christ. There it was. OK, I missed the word.

58:54

You got it right. Did I really? Yes, you did. No, I didn't. I swear. That's what you said. Is it?

59:00

Yes. I was wondering why you stopped. OK, well, this is how my whole day is gone.

59:08

I didn't have any reason to think you did anything wrong. I don't know unless my hearing was going. I don't know. I thought in my mind