WWUTT 1120 Q&A Hatmaker, Lucado, and Chan, Oh My?

What was it that Jen Hatmaker and Max Lakedo said about unity? What did Francis Chan say about the Lord's table? And did the early church fathers teach transubstantiation? The answers to these questions when we understand the text.

Introduction and Program Setup

This is When We Understand the Text, a daily Bible study in the Word of Christ. That we may have the mind of Christ, unified and growing together in love. Find all our resources online at www .wtt .com.

Here once again is Pastor Gabe.

Thank you, Becky. You're welcome. And one of those resources, a brand new book. Oh, yes, that is right. 2019 Year in Review. It is available on Kindle and in print. You could just do a search for 2019 Year in Review.

I don't know how many books are going to come up here. Let me try that right now. Of course, with me, with my search history, it's probably going to bring my book first. Well, of course, naturally. 2019 Year in Review on Amazon.

And yeah, it comes up right away. So, of course, you're looking for the one that's by Gabriel Hughes. Naturally. There are a couple of other 2019 Year in Review sorts of things, but mine is Christian Headlines.

That's right. And I have a question today. One of our questions today has to do with the book, so I'm already getting responses from the book. Oh, wow. That's awesome. So, thanks so much for reading. Yeah.

But you can pick it up. Like I said, I wanted to make it cheap. The paperback, I couldn't sell for less than $6 .29 because of how much it costs to print. So $6 .29, that's what it costs you for paperback.

But for Kindle, I'm still true to my word, it's $0 .99. Awesome. $0 .99 to read it on Kindle. So get the 2019 Year in Review. About half of it is stuff that I wrote in blog form last year. And I want to try to be more diligent about that this year, so that way when I get to.

The end of the year It'll be a little simpler to put it together.

I can just grab my blogs and kind of whittle that down. Each article is about 600 words. There are a few that are a little bit shorter than that, but that would be a good... It's like 600 to 1 ,000 words.

So it'd be a good cutoff point even for myself to try to discipline myself for just 1 ,000 words. Don't try to go 3 ,000. Yeah. Because I had to take that Francis Chan article, which was 3 ,000 or 4 ,000 words and cut that down.

Yeah, I remember that. I don't think it went 4 ,000. I think it was about 3 ,000. But I had to cut that down. Anyway, it's that chapter in particular that is one of our questions we're going to get to today.

Being the Friday edition of the broadcast, we're taking your questions via email when we understand the text at gmail .com. Before getting to that though, mentioning that we're going to be in Atlanta next week

Yes, we are. For G3. Yeah. We get there on Monday. The conference doesn't even start until Thursday. Right. But I'll be there for the expository class Tuesday and Wednesday, which, let's see, Vodie Bachum I know is leading that, and Tom Buck, and Derek Thomas.

I don't know if there's anybody else I'm missing in there. But that should be a great class. For you. For me. Right. And then Becky and Sonia are going to hit the town. Yeah, something like that. Oh, hey, look, I got a review already on my book.

Yeah, I saw that. You didn't? No, I didn't. I didn't notice that. Aw. Four stars. That's okay. I'd give it about four stars, too. I appreciated this recap of the top stories of 2019 from a Christian perspective.

Scripture is interspersed throughout the book, and Pastor Gabe points the reader to Christ, our only hope. Thank you so much. That is awesome. There you go. Very short and simple review. Still four stars with that much positivity.

But like I said, I would also give it four stars. So yeah, check out 2019 Year in Review. I mean, it's kind of dated. Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, the book is dated. Sorry.

I couldn't help it. Well, you're right. It was old 10 days ago. You know, it's just, it's coming on. Yeah, that's right.

We're not in 2019 anymore. I'm sorry. Boy, you totally tickled yourself over that.

Well, I was trying not to, and then I just, I couldn't. So now it's coming out with all those giggles. Okay. I'm better.

It was perfect. I am composed. Perfect reason for the book to be only four stars because it was, it's old. It's dated. It's a dated book now. I wrote an old book. My new book is old. It's as old as soon as it came out.

That's right. It's old as soon. Yeah. It's as old as. Yeah. You were close enough. I was close. So anyway, G3 next week. Yes. G3. Okay. So we have a booth. Look for us. Yes. Yes. In the exhibition hall.

Mm-hmm. We will have flash drives. In fact, I have them right here next to me. Yeah. So the flash drives will have. Lord willing. Lord willing. Right. Yes. We have these eight gigabyte flash drives, which will contain every what video?

About 300 videos. Mm-hmm. Pretty close to that anyway. And I don't even know what we're going to price these at. I was talking $25, 30, something like that. I'm obliging myself to a price now. I'm talking about.

You are. Mm-hmm. So if you come by our booth and you want all the videos on a flash drive, we'll have them for you. Plus the book and 25 Christmas myths and 40 Mormon beliefs and what the Bible says.

Those three books will be out there. Mm-hmm. 40 of the most popular Bible verses and what the Bible says. Was that the name of my book? 40 of the most popular Bible verses and what they really mean. That's what it was.

That's right. Yeah. That's it. I don't remember the title of my own book. That one's not going to be there because I'm having to rewrite and republish it on Amazon. Right. Because my previous carrier is not going to be able to carry it anymore.

So anyway, that book won't be there, but the other three that I've done will be there. We have anything else? Brochures? I was going to say. Yes. Yes. So we'll have some information for folks who have never heard of what before.

Mm-hmm. And be able to give them a brochure. If you know what we are, don't take the brochure. Okay. Let it be for the people who've never heard of us before. Okay.

So. I was thinking of they would hand it to a person who hadn't heard of us.

Well, that would be okay too. It's whatever. As long as you're going to hand it to somebody who needs to know about what. What were we talking about? I'm still on subject, right? We're G3, yes. G3.

Okay. We're still on subject with G3. So next week. Looking to see you there. Looking forward to seeing you there in Atlanta. And are we going to prerecord podcasts or are we going to just take the week off and be at G3?

Well, we could do like what we did last time. So we'll record one on the way down and we'll have Sonya with us. We will. I'm not sure she's going to want to. We'll finally get Sonya on the broadcast. So we can record that while we're driving like we did before because we'd be talking theology anyway, no matter what.

So send your questions if you'd like. If you've got some quick questions that we could respond to in route to G3, send it to

I just hope we don't get hung up on traffic like we did.

Yeah. Well, hey, when we hit those dead stop construction zones and stuff like that, we can talk theology. Yeah, but I anyway. When we understand the text at gmail .com or drop a question on Facebook underneath this video link.

I'll try to look for them and oh, you know, we had those other questions when you put on Twitter and we were supposed to go back through and respond to those and I haven't done that. Yeah. You dropped the ball.

I did. No. So I could go grab those questions, the rest of the Twitter questions we didn't answer. So yeah, drop us some questions. We'll respond to them on the way. That'll become the broadcast for next week and then questions that we take while we're there because we had folks fill out note cards.

Yeah, that was fun. And do a giveaway. Those questions we'll respond to then on the way back and that'll be the next week's broadcast. All right. So there you go. Hope to see you at G3. Now then, let's get to questions.

Jen Hatmaker, Max Lucado, and the Problem of Unity Without Truth

So I got a few questions. I don't have a question right in front of me here, but I did get a few comments from some folks asking if I had heard the conversation between Jen Hatmaker and Max Licato and he talked about like equality and unity with Jen Hatmaker.

Okay. And so there are people asking, did you hear about this? I mean, you know, is Max Licato gone off the deep end? Folks, Max Licato was here a long time ago. Here? He's where he's at now. Got it. Okay.

It's not like the thing that he did by appearing on Jen Hatmaker's broadcast and saying, hey, I love you, Jen, and we're brother and sister in the Lord because in case you don't know Jen Hatmaker.

Yeah, I think we should explain who these people are just in case.

So very popular person. She had a, didn't she have a, one of those reality TV shows? Oh, that I don't know. I don't, I don't have any idea. Come on. You're like the, the homemaker and you're supposed to know all this stuff.

Sorry. Not like that. Okay. So yeah, not in the sense that she's watching all the HGTV shows. So she had an HGTV series, Your Big Family Renovation. Ah, okay. And has a New York times bestselling book for the love.

Um, had it, I knew she had the book, but I didn't know she had the TV show.

So back in 2016 she was featured in, I can't even remember what publication this was. If it was the Atlantic or Christianity Today, I'm pretty sure it was Jonathan Merritt that did the interview with Jen Hatmaker.

One of the questions that he asked her about was her, uh, views on LGBT marriage, like same sex marriage. And she declared that same sex marriages were holy in the eyes of God. This was all back in 2016 and Lifeway Christian Resources decided to discontinue selling her books.

Okay. They yanked all of her books off the shelf after that. But I mean, uh, Beth Moore has expressed solidarity with Jen Hatmaker. So this isn't anything new, especially for Max Licato to come out and, and express this, uh, love that he has for this gal.

He's appearing on our podcast. So of course he's got some sort of affinity for Jen Hatmaker. Uh, but yeah, he said some things and, and by the way, Max Licato popular for many, many feel good Christian books.

Oh yeah. Tons. But was a pastor in the church of Christ. That's where he originates from. So there's all sorts of theological problems with the church of Christ anyway. And then when he stepped away from being pastor and then became pastor again, he was pastor at Bill Heibel's church at Willow Creek.

I mean, Max Licato has never been a bastion of sound doctrine or sound theology, but you do have some statements in this, um, in this interview that I think are pretty reflective of the way people feel about unity.

We can agree to disagree on something like same sex marriage, which we can't. I mean, if you're, if you're advocating for that, you're advocating for something that God has promised he will judge by sending a person to hell.

Right. You're encouraging people in damnable sin, which frankly is heresy because when you talk about heresy being the teaching of doctrine that's damnable, then that's what you're doing when you tell somebody that LGBTQ is fine and somebody who is gay can be a Christian.

So in first Corinthians six, nine through 11, we have, do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you, but you were washed. You were sanctified. You were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit of our God. So it states plainly that they will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

So we should not under any circumstance, encourage or permit, or even just passively to a person who is practicing things that God has promised he will judge with fire. That is not at all loving of the other person.

No. That's like watching them go up in a flame.

If you have crucified the old self, if the old is dead and gone and you've been clothed in the righteousness of Christ and you are being remade after the knowledge of the image of your creator, as Paul says in Colossians three, then that old person's gone.

You're not clinging to the passions of your flesh and continuing to identify yourself by those things. You are now identified by Christ and in pursuit of God are becoming more godly, which means less and less these sinful worldly passions.

And if we love somebody, that's what we're going to encourage someone to not permit them to continue in this immorality that is going to end badly for them if they do not repent. So in this conversation between Jen Hatmaker and Max Lakato, they're just, I mean, both of them are just basically celebrating, yeah, a person can be LGBTQ and we can still be unified.

Romans 1 .32, which says to us, though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them, but give approval to those who practice them. And Jen Hatmaker and Max Lakato even heap condemnation on themselves with some of the things they're saying in this conversation.

Right. Two days ago, I went to downtown San Antonio to have lunch with a pastor of a downtown church that is caught up in the controversy over whether or not to have gay marriages. And so they've landed on the side of yes, they will, they will have gay marriages.

And they have about 200 active members. But listen, listen to this. They feed about 800 homeless people a week. Beautiful. About 800 homeless people a week. Now, I didn't go online to see what is said about this church in social media.

I would imagine it's not always positive because of the stance they've taken on gay marriage. While I was with him and meeting their staff and walking through their building, that topic never came up.

I was just fascinated at and humbled at their ability to care for the homeless and the poor. And we connected right there. We connected right there. And there's fellowship there. There's fellowship. Does that make sense?

Oh, 100 percent.

I mean, if anything has ever been clear in scripture, as we like to say that everything is, it's that our part of our faith community's responsibility is to care deeply for the poor and for the marginalized and hurting in our communities.

Yes, of course, there's fellowship around that.

All Jen Hatmaker and Max Licata are doing here is giving a person a comfortable seat on the way to hell. So we're supposed to just believe, hey, All these people are Christians because they're feeding 800 homeless people.

But at the same time, encouraging this church, which believes in gay marriage and according to what Max Licata was saying, there is even practicing gay marriage, but they're feeding the homeless. So it's OK.

No, it just doesn't make sense to me how the Bible can be so clear on these things. And yet people are so confused still and refuse to believe it.

Well, here's what Paul says in Philippians chapter three, starting in verse two, look out for the dogs, look out for the evil doers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision who worship by the spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh.

What were Jen and Max doing there? Yeah. Putting confidence in their flesh. They're putting confidence in their own works. Skipping down to verse 17, brothers join in imitating me and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us, for many of whom I have often told you and now tell you, even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.

Their end is destruction. Their God is their belly and they glory in their shame with mindset on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven. And from it, we await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Jesus said, whoever is ashamed of me and my word, I will be ashamed of him on the day that I return in the glory of my father and of the holy angels. Amen. They can they can use the name of Jesus here, but they don't actually believe what Jesus has said or worship him as Lord because they are glorying in earthly sins.

Rather than a heavenly kingdom in their church, in the church, not just in life.

But yeah, it's not just having friends in the world who are worldly. And so therefore they do worldly things. Right. We're having friends in the church that are doing worldly things. Yeah, that's just.

But this is I mean, this is do they pick and choose or is it like on your Reftunes Reftunes calendar calendar up there, the Bible that's all blacked out?

OK, so yeah. So now I have to explain this. Since Becky has brought it up. So we got a Reftune up here and it says, hey, well, we got the Reftunes calendar. We ordered it back in twenty nineteen. Right.

So I ordered two of them. I've got one in my study and Becky's got one upstairs on the fridge. So thank you so much, Reftunes, for this awesome calendar. Hey, I forgot my Bible. Do you have one that I could borrow?

And the girl says, of course, I always carry a spare.

Yeah. Why am I reading the girl's part? I don't know. I could let you read the girl's part. The boy says, wait, why is everything blacked out except God is love?

I just think there shouldn't be so much negativity in there. So I put my marker to work.

And then Charles Spurgeon says, the fact is, we oftentimes read scripture thinking of what it ought to say rather than what it does say. And I thought that went perfectly. Well done, babe. Thanks. Good observation there.

So, yeah, that goes that goes quite well with what Jen and Max are talking about here. Dare I go into more?

Should I go into more here? Well, and and so I left thinking, OK, you know, I don't know. There's probably a lot of things that our churches that that where we're different, where we're different. Sure.

And yet for for us to dismiss, blanketly dismiss large portions of our church family, again, getting back to point A, and that is we don't get a choice. Yeah, yeah. We worship the same God. That's right.

And we would come to the same table. Yeah, we might practice our faith slightly differently on some things. And we're still all working it through, by the way. We're still working it through. But we got to applaud what what the different aspect when somebody is really living out their faith, we need to make a big deal out of that rather than rather than point out the areas in which we're different.

If we can start doing that, we might begin getting around the table and talking through some of these things in a way that would be healthier.

You know, Becky made an observation during these two clips that we just listened to. Mm hmm. Just talking about how he can't spit it out. He can't get to the point. He seems to be stuttering so much. Yeah.

Honestly, I think the reason for that, he's never been an eloquent speaker anyway, Max Lakato. But I think the reason for that is because he's actually not confident in what he's saying. Yeah. And he knows there's a problem with it, but he's forcing himself to say it in the interest of unity.

Right. We all just need to be able to come to the same table because this is what the public wants.

So the vast majority. Yeah.

So pleasing men instead of pleasing God. Yeah.

And if you surround yourself with people like that, that's all you hear. So you you think that, of course, it's right. You know, how could it be wrong? But if you actually go back to scripture and read it, it's wrong.

And that's kind of what I mean, that is what the Bible tells us is that we're going to be not majority, but minority.

Right. What do we have in in Matthew seven, 13? Yeah. Enter by the narrow gate. Yes. For the gate is wide and the way is easy. That leads to destruction. And those who enter by it are few. No, there are many, many.

Those who enter by the way of destruction are many. Yeah. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard. That leads to life. And those who find it are few. Matthew seven, skipping down to verse 21. Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven.

But the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven on that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and cast out demons in your name and do many mighty works in your name?

Like feeding 800. Yeah. Poor homeless people. Right. And then I will declare to them, I never knew you depart from me. You workers of lawlessness. Atheists can feed 800 poor people. Right. So true. The charity that we do will, of course, be a demonstration of the faith that we have.

But that doesn't mean that only Christians will be doing those things. There are there are sinful, wicked people that are capable of doing things. We in our earthly viewpoint might otherwise call good.

But Isaiah 64, six, even our best deeds are as filthy rags before a holy God. Right. It's not salvation. It's not evidence of of Christianity or saving faith. It's it's that fruit of the spirit or the fruit of the spirit.

Yeah. It's just that wicked people can do good things every once in a while.

But in their heart that it is it's still far from God.

Right. So, yeah, exactly what Jesus said. You're you acknowledge me with your lips, but your heart is far from me. Right.

For other people. That is a great story and a great example. I love it. You mentioned just a second ago something I'd like to hear you talk more about. You talked about kind of the big rocks. And I learned that you have what you say, three big rocks that sort of form the cornerstone of your faith and have helped you be happy in ministry and stay in harmony with God's church.

That feels important right now. I with so much like kind of noise and everything swirling around at all times, everything. So everything just feels so tight and so volatile. It feels like kind of coming to something simple, finding a simplicity in our faith, sort of these through lines of the big things is really useful as is a great filter through which we can consider everything in front of us right now.

So I wonder if you could talk about what those are, those big rocks to you. And have they always been the same or do they shift a little bit according to just the season of life and ministry you're in?

How much time do you have for you all day, all day?

So basically where they're going here, what Jim Hatmaker is asking Max Lakato to do, even though they can't ever seem to really use biblical or orthodox terms, OK,.

But what. We'll substitute these terms for things that we'd like to say.

Yeah. Yeah. So essentially what she's asking him for is essential doctrines.

Oh, I did not see that at all. I thought she was asking for like people who like helped him, you know, who he looks up to, who he reads a lot of, you know, like those kind of. OK, OK, OK. Yeah.

So she's like, if we're going to boil it down to the essentials, what is it that we rock? Yes, the three rocks. OK, so I get that. What do we have to believe to therefore call ourselves Christians? So what they're wanting to do here, what Jen and Max are going to do is try to narrow Christianity down to these three basic tenets.

And then everything else beyond this would therefore become a Christian liberty issue. OK, you know what I mean by. No, I'm I'm kind of lost. Well, you had said it earlier off, Mike. OK, about like the nonessential things.

OK, so we can agree to disagree on some of these other things. Oh, right. OK. But these are the essential non doctrines. Right. To our Christian faith. That's where Max is going to go next, which, of course, he can't just say what they are.

So he's going to tell this story. And I'm sorry for the length of the story.

Becky's giving me a look hard. Well, we're talking about our list of non-negotiables, right? And I believe we've got to keep that list as tight and as brief as possible. It's great. What happened to me, the super short version is I was a mess when I came to Christ.

I know some people say that, but I really was. You would not have wanted your daughter to go out with me. I was I was not a good man. When I was 20 years old, I came to faith. I decided I wanted to become a missionary and to get into Brazil as a missionary.

You had to have a seminary degree. So I went and got a seminary degree. And in the midst of that seminary degree, I had a wonderful professor of New Testament. And the day that really this all crystallized for me was the day that he led us into an exercise in which he put a a target up on the back.

Then we use blackboards. I know we don't anymore. But with chalk, he drew like you're, you know, an archer would use shooting at a target. And and he began asking us, what are the big issues of the Christian faith?

Well, you get a bunch of seminarians talking about that. You know, it's it's going to be fun. So people were throwing up everything from the end times to the charismatic movement to authority of the Bible to role of women in the church, you know, just a variety of things.

And so he made a list. And then he said, OK, now place which one of these goes on the bullseye? Which one of these is the core? Which one of these are the most important or which of these are absolutely essential for fellowship and and moving forward in faith?

Now, there's a good question. There's a question. Well, he then we all try to place them around. But you know what? None of them made it to the center. None of them made it the center. He said, OK, so what goes on the center?

And and as we're in this interview, I just opened my Bible to the passage. He had us open ours, too. And that's first Corinthians chapter 15. And this is the apostle Paul. He said, I passed on to you what was most important and what had also been passed on to me.

Christ died for our sins, just as the scripture said. He was buried. He was raised from the dead on the third day, just as the scripture said. He was seen by Peter and then by the 12 and then more than 500 of the followers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.

Then he was seen by James and later by the apostles. So so I think if the apostle Paul had been in that class, he would have written death, burial and resurrection.

Now, is that true? Are those essential tenants of our faith? Of course. Absolutely. They are. Yes. But here's what you don't get from that. Let me read it again. First Corinthians 15 three. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures.

And then you have the statements of him appearing to the brothers and the apostles. So you have death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, according to what? According to this. According to the scriptures.

Like Lakato is missing something huge there. Like all of this is according to the Bible. Yes. Which is our authority. Right. How do we even know about the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus? The Bible.

According to the scriptures. Right. And so then also according to the scriptures, you have teachings on new life, that in Christ Jesus, the old is gone, the new has come. The old man is dead. The new is being remade after the image of our creator.

And so in new life, we're no longer walking in our former sinfulness. We are walking in the righteousness of Christ. Paul states in Romans six, if you are still in the passions of your flesh, you can say, I believe in Jesus till you're blue in the face.

Right. If your life does not reflect that you have faith in Jesus, that he is your king to whom you bow and serve. If your life doesn't evidence that you're still in your sins. Right. Doesn't matter what's coming out your mouth.

Right. You're still dead and enslaved to your sins. Folks, that's an essential doctrine. It is. Sanctification is an essential doctrine. If you're not being sanctified, you were never justified. Right.

Those whom God justifies, he will also sanctify. And so Lakato is what he's saying here is true. When it comes to the basics of our faith, we understand the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

But where in that did he say Jesus is God? Right. True. See the statement, the statement that he read there from first Corinthians 15 is absolutely true. And we should believe that as foundational to our faith.

But we understand that Christ was crucified, was buried and risen again, according to the scriptures, because he's God. And when Lakato narrows down the basics of our faith, everything else we can disagree on.

But these things we have to agree on. If we narrowed it down to what he just said there, then we never come to any understanding that Jesus is God.

Yeah. I just, I have a problem with, I don't know, like, it just struck me as the gospel plus. That you have previously used before. I mean, like many times. Oh, yeah. Like adding to the gospel. Yes. Like, it's not just gospel.

It's gospel plus works. Right. To be saved. Right. And so I don't know. It's just something about this conversation makes me think that I don't know if that's accurate.

Oh, yeah. I would say that that's what they're doing. Absolutely. Just based on everything that he said earlier about feeding the homeless and all this.

So that's what was kind of triggering me. Is it back to. That is the just the fact that he's. He's adding. Works. He's focusing on the works.

Right. And specifically man's works. Right. Because sanctification is not our work. It's God's work. Right. But we're going to evidence the work that God is doing in our lives in the way that we live.

Yeah. So I'm not telling you go out and do good things and therefore you're going to be a Christian. I'm saying that the good things that you do will evidence the fact that God is working in you. Too willing to work according to his good pleasure by what we read in Philippians.

Right. So yeah, what they're saying is faith and works. They're saying you have to believe but you also have to be doing this. Right. They're definitely adding to the gospel. Okay.

In the conversation that happened. That's how I was what I was taken out of that.

I think you're I think you're accurate in that assessment. Okay. By hearing hearing that is what they're saying. I'm trying to think of where he's going next after this. How about we just play it? We'll find out.

Sounds good.

And place it right there in the core. And that made that has simplified my faith Jen for so many years. Okay. Hang on. I'm going to jump in.

Okay. All right. So you pointed out the fact that he left out in the scriptures. Right. Right. Okay. So the scripture is being the Bible being truth being that's where we find. It's God's word. Yes, it is.

And so the just the fact that he left that out. Just speaks volumes on why he thinks it's okay for homosexuality. To be okay in the church. Right. Because the Bible is not his authority. Right. Yes. Because if it was then he would be reading that homosexuality is a sin.

And that it's not okay to do that.

That God will judge and exclude a person from the kingdom of heaven over. That that big of a sin. Right. Yes. So even as we were talking a moment ago about the works that we do will evidence our faith.

Well, the works that we do will also evidence our lack of faith. So a person that is in sin of this kind of sexual immorality. That continues in this sin and does not repent of it. Is evidencing in their lives that they don't have the fruit of the spirit.

But are still doing the works of the flesh. Right. And all of this comes back to unbelief. They really don't believe Jesus. Right. Matthew 7, they will say, didn't we do many mighty works in your name?

Yeah. And Jesus will say, I never knew you. Right.

You didn't do it in my name. They just wanted to feel good or something. That's right. I mean, I don't know.

It was works righteousness. Yeah. So in Matthew 28, where we have the great commission, verse 18, Jesus came to them and said, all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. So if I were in on this conversation, I'd be looking at Jen and Max and going, do you believe that?