November 12, 2019 Show with Andrew Smith on “Today in Church His-Story: The Arrest of John Bunyan”

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this twelfth day of November 2018.

I'm looking at 2018! 2019! Wow, I must really be sleep -deprived.

I'm so thrilled to have back on the program a returning guest who has just begun a regular feature on our program.

He has a podcast titled Today in Church History, h -i -s -s -t -o -r -y, and we have adopted that as our own here on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio as well by inviting

Pastor Andrew back on at least once a month to highlight a significant moment or a significant event or series of events that have taken place in church history, and we are trying to conduct these interviews on the very date whenever possible of these historic monumental events.

But Pastor Andrew is the pastor of Christ Reform Community Church of St. John's, Florida, and today we are going to be addressing the arrest of John Bunyan, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Andrew Smith.

Thank you, Chris. It's always such a privilege and a pleasure to be on this radio program with you.

And the pleasure is all mine as well. And if you could, as we always do, for those of our listeners especially who have not heard you on this program, please tell us about Christ Reform Community Church of St.

John's, Florida. Sure. We are an independent Reformed confessional congregation situated in between St.

Augustine, Florida, and Jacksonville, Florida. We're in the county of St. John's, which is where the city of St.

Augustine is located, but our church is actually closer to the Jacksonville area. So we live in an area which has high growth, a lot of people moving to the state of Florida, a lot of people moving to this area.

And so a lot of times the folks that end up being part of our church are people that hear my sermons online.

As a matter of fact, we have a sweet, precious couple, Mike and Janet, who are moving from the state of Mississippi down to St.

John's County so they can be part of our church. And they heard some sermons online and had been listening to my preaching for several months, and we didn't even know who they were.

And in God's sovereign grace, they came and visited, and now they're moving to St. John's County.

So we're grateful for that. We're grateful to serve the Lord where we're at and be faithful to the

Scriptures. And yeah, so that's who we are. First of all, let me give my listeners our email address if they want to join us on the air with a question.

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As we already said, we are discussing today, commemorating, today in church history, the arrest of John Bunyan.

Why don't you explain a little bit of detail for our listeners who are clueless about John Bunyan, who this great hero of the faith was.

I can still remember, every time I think of John Bunyan, I can't help but remember years ago when the

Iron Trip and Zion Radio program was being broadcast out of WNYG in West Babylon, Long Island.

I was interviewing Barry Horner on John Bunyan and Pilgrim's Progress, and Barry Horner happens to be a native -born

Australian who lives in the United States now. In fact, I think he's currently living in your great state of Florida, if I'm not mistaken.

But during that interview, a friend of mine, Pastor Ed Moore of North Shore Baptist Church of Bayside, Queens, who is known for having a very warped sense of humor and known for being a practical joker, he called in during the show and started off his question sounding very erudite and serious, and he said, but the thing that's really on my mind most of all, please tell us more details about John Bunyan's blue ox, babe.

Of course, he was making a joke about Paul Bunyan. But I have a feeling that a lot of people who are unfamiliar with this historic figure might be thinking that we're talking about the fictional

Paul Bunyan, the giant lumberjack, but that is not who we're talking about.

Tell us about John Bunyan. Yeah, that's a great place to start and great clarification.

There is a difference between John Bunyan and Paul Bunyan. John Bunyan lived in the 17th century.

He was born in 1628 and lived almost 60 years. He died in the year 1678.

He was a nonconformist in the country of England during a time period where there was great civil unrest and religious confusion.

You're talking about really a couple of generations really following the

Reformation in Germany, and so he lived at a time where the working out of how the church would work with the government, how the state would work with the church, he lived at a time where that was being worked out.

And he was a man who was born in a poor home. His father was a tinkerer and mended pots and pans, and John Bunyan actually took that trade on himself.

So he wasn't a man that was born of great wealth. He was not an educated man.

He was not even licensed to preach within the Church of England. And that is where much of the controversy began, because although he wasn't educated and wasn't licensed and didn't come from a particularly pedigreed background, he was a man who knew the

Scriptures and he loved the Lord. He was a great preacher. He had the ability to draw massive crowds to hear him preach.

And the Lord used him in a very, very, very mighty way during a time period when there was probably too much of an emphasis on the uniformity of the

Church, the formality of the Church, the education of the clergy. In the

Church of England, there were still too much Roman Catholic qualities going on that really prevented the laity from producing men like John Bunyan, who was the product of—really, it's an interesting story— he was the product of women who were conversing about their inner spiritual experience of coming to know

Christ in a personal way. And he had not really heard that sort of conversation take place.

He had not really heard sermons that spoke about the Evangelical Gospel in a way that would call him to faith and repentance in Christ.

And so it was a bunch of laywomen who he overheard having a conversation about this that really encouraged him to begin searching out the things of the

Lord and studying the things of the Lord. He was part of the parliamentary army, which

I'm sure we'll end up talking more about because it's impossible to understand why John Bunyan did the things that he did, why he was put in prison, why he was willing to be put in prison, without understanding the historical context of what was going on politically and militarily in England.

But he was a profane man. He was a blasphemer. There are accounts that when he was in the military, he smarted off to his superiors.

He was always being punished publicly. He was being put in the stocks. They had him ride what was called a wooden horse, which was just that.

It was a fake wooden horse. They would tie two muskets to your feet and weigh you down. It was a very uncomfortable position that you would sit in for hours without food or water.

And that was just a point of public ridicule as for punishment. So when he came to know the

Lord, there was such a massive change in his life that when he began to preach, he instantly drew a crowd because everyone knew him as this tinker from Bedfordshire, this guy who was a blasphemer, ex -military guy.

And so when he started preaching and he began preaching the true gospel, he got notice not only from the laity, but also from the higher -ups in the

Church of England. Yes, in fact, although Bunyan was only a tinker, a mender of pots and pans, he achieved such knowledge and biblical literacy and just brilliance being a self -taught man of meager means that he even received the great admiration of one of the most brilliant Christian thinkers in all of Christendom, John Owen, who actually invited

Bunyan to preach in his own pulpit. Yeah, I think that's a great point,

Chris, because you have certainly within the Puritan movement, and John Bunyan was a

Puritan, he was a Calvinist, so he would have associated with people like John Owen, and when you talk about people like John Owen, you're talking about highly intellectual, theologically skilled clergymen of their own day.

John Bunyan was not considered that, but he certainly had the mind and was able to understand the

Scriptures, he was indwelt by the Holy Spirit as a believer, and that's a very important point to make, that we don't believe that as Christians, we believe that if we're indwelt by the

Holy Spirit, that we can understand the Word of God, we can study the Word of God, and all

Christians are to be theologians, all Christians are to seek to understand Scripture and to study it, and that's the amazing thing about the

Puritan movement, is you have people like John Owen on the one hand, who was a scholar, and then you had people like John Bunyan that wasn't considered a scholar by society or by the

Church necessarily, but he was a man who certainly was brilliant in his own right, and the

Lord used in an amazing way. Can you tell us something about the religious stock from which

John Bunyan arose, something about the religion of his parents and so on? Yeah, well, we don't know the exact date of his birth, we know that he was christened on November 30, 1628, so we know that his parents were at least churchgoers, and he would have come from a religious home in that sense, but really it was his first wife that led him to Christ indirectly.

When they got married, she brought into the home three books in particular.

One was Foxe's Book of Martyrs, which I'm sure most of the listeners are familiar with, one of John Bunyan's favorite books, until the day that he died.

But there were two other books. There was a book called The Practice of Piety, which was written by a bishop by the last name of Bailey, and then another work written by Dent entitled

Plain Man's Pathway to Heaven. And this little library that his wife brought into their little home caused him to start really thinking about his walk with the

Lord and to think about the sin in his life. And his wife said it had come from a very godly home, and so she brought these books into his life, books became a companion to him, and it was through his reading of these works that he realized he didn't know

Christ, that he was not a believer, and that simply trying to make outward changes apart from an inward change, apart from being born again, would do nothing.

In fact, he tampered with trying to just change some of his practices and some of his sinful habits, and he frustrated himself because he found that he couldn't do that.

And that's when one day, as he was on the job tinkering, doing his trade, he heard some women outside of a church speaking about their walk with Christ and speaking in terms of warmth and affection regarding their love for Christ and how

Christ had changed their hearts. And that ultimately led to his understanding of the gospel and his conversion to Christ, and he joined that particular church.

It happened to be a Baptist church, which of course would have been a church of nonconformity, and John Gifford was the pastor at this church, and John Bunyan was converted.

He joined the church, he was immersed, and then a couple years later started preaching.

He was ordained as a deacon in that Baptist church, and then he started preaching. So he's an example of someone that grew up in a religious environment that never really understood the gospel and wasn't born again until he was a man in his mid -twenties.

Now, I always knew that John Bunyan was Baptistic, or at least a credo

Baptist, but I know that there has been some disagreement amongst

Christians as to whether he maintained a view of immersion. Did he ever become an effusionist, or was that a rumor?

Excuse me, did he ever become a what? An effusionist, someone who believed in pouring over the head of a believer rather than immersing them completely in water.

Well, he would have been someone, Chris, that would have not emphasized the mode of baptism.

He would not have emphasized even whether or not, you know, someone was sprinkled, whether water was poured over them, whether they were immersed.

He wrote a work, I think the title of it was something like The Differences in Judgment About Water Baptism, No Bar to Communion.

And what that title is simply communicating is what the little pamphlet or book that he wrote communicated, and that was the fact that he did not believe water baptism was a test for local church fellowship.

So, for example, in the Bedford church, the Baptist church that he later became the pastor of, the same church that he was converted in, after he got out of prison, he became the pastor of this church, and they allowed

Pater Baptists to become members of the church. And he held the position that when it came to the

Lord's Supper, you were not to bar the table, or that is, that's another way of saying, prevent people from partaking of the

Lord's Supper who were genuine Christians, even if they had not been immersed. Now, there's some evidence that suggests that after a period of time,

Bunyan's church, although they were credo -Baptistic in their practice, that they eventually became

Pater Baptists in their practice. I'm not 100 % sure if that is true, maybe one of the listeners knows for certain on that, but I think we can say at a minimum that he, and he even said this in this work, he said he did not believe that baptism should be made an idol.

So he was so adamant about the one and true gospel, and he wanted to promote the one and true gospel, that he did not want to make baptism an idol.

I think that is such a valuable lesson for today, because there are large denominations who try to track conversions based simply upon the numbers of baptisms they have a year.

And I do not think that is an accurate measurement of true conversions, and so I think we can learn from Bunyan here.

It doesn't mean that we don't have conviction about the mode of baptism or the timing of baptism, but I think that we need to be gracious with our brothers and sisters who disagree, so long as they don't believe in baptismal regeneration.

And that's, you know, Bunyan would not want someone partaking of communion in his church if they believed in baptismal regeneration.

In other words, if they believed that being baptized was part of salvation, he would say that that was grounds for preventing them from partaking of the

Lord's Supper. But if they held to traditional covenantal theology, where the christening of a baby was simply a sign of entrance into the church, and not conversion itself, he would have no problem saying, you know, let's just agree to disagree on this issue, and let's talk about the gospel.

And something that may startle or disturb some of our friends who are either fundamentalists, who despise

Calvinism, or other Christians who share that revulsion over what we cherish, known as the doctrines of sovereign grace, or Calvinism, or Reformed theology, but even though they may claim these folks,

Bunyan as a hero, and Pilgrim's Progress is one of their most cherished books,

Bunyan did clearly share our belief in the doctrines of sovereign grace, did he not? Yes, absolutely.

You know, he was part of that. I mean, Bunyan is about as Puritan as you can get.

He was Calvinistic. He emphasized the preaching of the

Word of God. He wanted the laypeople to understand the

Word of God, so he preached in a simple way, not a simplistic way, but a way that people could understand.

He wasn't trying to be eloquent in his speech. He was, by all standards, a true

Calvinistic Puritan. He really is the predecessor of American Christianity.

And I don't mean American Christianity as we see it today. I'm talking about original

American Christianity. It was his generation that sent over the

Mayflower, you know, that settled in Plymouth Rock, Massachusetts. It was that very generation that came from Bunyan's period of time.

And so you're talking about a guy who was staunchly in favor of religious liberty, which is not something that the vast majority of the

Church of England held to, at least not in the same way that he did. And religious liberty was absolutely foundational to the forming of the

United States of America. So he's the predecessor of American theology in many ways.

He's the predecessor of our heritage as Americans and as Christian Americans.

As I said, of course, our heritage has been diluted greatly. People today, when they think of American Christianity, they don't think of John Bunyan.

They don't even know who he is. They think of an imaginary person like Paul Bunyan. Today, when people think of American Christianity, they think of Joel Osteen or some other heretic.

But the reality is the United States was founded by people who believed very, very similar things to John Bunyan.

And we will be getting more into his great work,

Pilgrim's Progress, in a little bit, because it has something very much to do with this date that we are commemorating.

By the way, is today the exact date of John Bunyan's arrest? Yes, November 12, 1660.

Well, this touches on what you were just speaking about, the fact that the Church of England, now, this, of course, did not include every single person or theologian or clergyman in the

Church of England, because we just mentioned moments ago how much John Owen admired

John Bunyan. But he was obviously looked down upon by many in the

Church of England, which led to his arrest. And if you could explain that. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, once he was converted, you know, shortly after his first marriage, he began preaching.

And what was going on in England at this time was a lot of back and forth.

England had just, you know, gotten out of the English Civil War.

So when Bunyan was converted, the year was 1653, the

English Civil War ended in the 1640s. And he was beginning to minister the gospel during a time period which is referred to as the

Restoration. It was the restoration of the monarchy, the restoring of the king of England back to the throne, back to the seat of power.

That occurred in the year 1660. He began preaching in 1558.

So he was arrested in 1660, right at the beginning of the Restoration, and was imprisoned for 12 years.

He wasn't released until 1672. So his children really were raised by his wife, you know, and they were little.

He had freedom to preach in prison. This is where he wrote the majority of his works.

I think of when Paul told Timothy that he was bound in chains, but the word of God was not bound.

That really was true for John Bunyan as well. I mean, the word of God sounded forced from his jail cell.

And he was able to write and to preach, and God used him in a mighty way. The irony of all of that is the fact that the reason he was arrested was because he was basically in charge of an unsanctioned religious assembly.

So some of the laws that were enacted after the Restoration of 1660 said that if you did not follow the liturgy of the

Church of England, if you did not follow the act of uniformity, the act of the

Conventical Act, which said that you couldn't, if you were above the age of 16, organize yourself with like five or more people in any sort of religious setting, you had to attend the parish church.

All of these sorts of laws, and even before those laws were actually official, the government was already pushing people to these things, and they were arresting people, particularly pastors and particularly those who were considered themselves

Baptists, like Bunyan, who were not licensed by the Church of England, and they were not educated.

And so Bunyan was arrested because he was an unlicensed preacher. And the interesting thing about Bunyan, of course you have to understand that his favorite book was

Fox's Book of Martyrs. So he is used to reading about all these men who take these great stands of faith and are burnt at the stake, people like Hugh Latimer and Nicholas Ridley and other people that you and I have talked about on this show in the past.

But Bunyan could have been released from prison if he would have simply promised that he would not preach again.

So it wasn't that he couldn't talk about his evangelical faith, it wasn't that he couldn't share the gospel, it's just you can't preach publicly.

And if you agree that you won't preach publicly, then we'll release you. I call it a holy stubbornness, because he absolutely refused to agree to that.

And he was actually warned as early as 1658, and the Restoration didn't take place until 1660, but in 1658 he was warned that you need to stop preaching because laws are going to be established that are going to prevent you, etc.

etc. And he was sort of a preacher on the run. He preached in barns, he preached under trees.

He was unrelenting in his boldness for the gospel.

And talking about a man who sacrificed, really, his family and being able to raise his children in order to do this.

And so he is, by all accounts, a hero of the faith. Praise God.

Well, we are going to our first break right now. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

Please, as always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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But if it's just a general question on history, on John Bunyan himself, on the Pilgrim's Progress, on doctrine or theology, please just give us your first name and city and state of residence and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back with Andrew Smith and more on this date in history, the arrest of John Bunyan.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is one of the primary sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Barring a miracle, we could not exist without their financial support, which actually has tripled since they first began advertising with us.

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But number two, they're getting such wonderful responses from you, the listeners, who have been purchasing many books from them.

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from Chris Arnson of Iron Trip and Zion Radio. And we should be hearing from Mike momentarily about an offer that he is intending to make in regard to Pilgrim's Progress.

I know that he sells several different editions of this great work by John Bunyan, whose life we are commemorating today, but also anything related to John Bunyan and things of that period.

But we will let you know if we hear from Mike with that offer that he is intending to make.

But we are now back with our guest today, Andrew Smith. Andrew Smith, as we have said before, is the pastor of Christ Reformed Community Church in St.

John's, Florida, and he is also the host of the Today in Church History podcast, and that is spelled h -i -s -s -t -o -r -y,

His Story. And we are discussing today an event that took place on this very date in the 16th century, the arrest of John Bunyan.

What year again was that, Pastor Andrew? The year was 1660. Oh, so it was 17th century,

I'm sorry. 1660. And if anybody wants to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.

chrisarnson at gmail dot com. And if we could pick up where we left off, we were talking about how the

Church of England at that time, as many churches were, they were very guarded that there be no competition, if you will, of not only churches, but individual evangelists and preachers and teachers who were not ordained by the

Church of England, who were not subscribing to their specific liturgy, and they were so opposed to this at that time, in the 17th century and earlier, that they actually would arrest folks on occasion who were considered by them basically to be lone wolves or mavericks.

I'm not saying John Bunyan truly fit that category, but that's obviously the way the Church of England viewed him, and they arrested him.

If you could pick up where we left off, because this is actually his arrest and his imprisonment is a vivid historical monument, if you will, to Romans 8 -28, as far as I'm concerned, because of the wonderful things that came out of that arrest, but if you could continue.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, you almost have to go back a hundred years, back to 1534, in the

Act of Supremacy. We talked about this last time I was on your show, when Henry VIII broke away from the

Pope. So when John Bunyan was born, he was born almost a hundred years after the establishment of the

Church of England. But as we well know, Henry VIII was more concerned about his legacy and the carrying on of an heir than he was about theological convictions.

That's not to say he had no theological convictions, he certainly believed something, and he certainly did not agree with the

Roman Church on many things. But the motivation of him breaking with Rome was so that he could divorce his wife and get remarried and have a son and be able to have an heir.

What began to happen and began to develop once the Church of England was established was this growing sort of angst among the people of England.

It was a period of time in which they had seen the Reformation take place, so it was an anti -authority, anti -absolutism sort of climate in which people began to become very uncomfortable with despotic, powerful rulers and kings.

So in England, for instance, you had the Parliament, which was basically, their job was to rubber stamp what the king wanted to do.

But what you started seeing take place in the early 1600s, particularly with the reign of Charles I, who was the son of James I, is you began to see

Parliament push back against the king. Charles I was one of those kings that believed that he had the divine right of God to rule.

I mean, he would say things like the only person that holds him accountable is God himself. So he did not want

Parliament holding him accountable. He didn't want anyone holding him accountable. He wanted God holding him accountable, but that didn't mean the

Pope, because he had broken away from the Pope. And so Parliament started to really push back against Charles I.

It got so bad, in fact, that for 11 years, from 1629 to 1641,

Parliament didn't even meet. They didn't even convene. You basically had England being ruled by one person, and that was

King Charles. Now, he was smart, and one of the things that he did is he appointed a person in charge of political matters of the

Oral of Stratford, and then he appointed someone in charge of ecclesiastical matters. And that's where the story gets interesting, because the man that he chose was a man by the name of William Laud.

And William Laud was the Archbishop of Canterbury. Previous to that, he had been the

Bishop of London. But this man was thoroughly Armenian, William Laud was.

He was very obviously anti -Calvinistic. He was pro -Anglican. And the

Puritans, the people like Bunyan and the generation before Bunyan absolutely could not stand

William Laud. I can see why. You can understand why at this point.

He certainly couldn't have been a 39 articles Anglican, because obviously that is a thoroughly

Calvinistic creed or confession. He's working behind the scenes to ensure that Calvinism is stamped out.

That was basically what he was motivated by. He wanted strict uniformity to the

Book of Common Prayer. The Puritans were upset because they didn't like vestments, they didn't like the bowing at Holy Communion, the bowing at the mention of the name

Jesus. They didn't like the cross, crossing oneself during baptism.

But really, they were most concerned about the fact that the Church of England was more

Armenian than they were Calvinistic. That was really where the boiling point was. But the best thing that Charles I did for the

Puritans is that he created such a divide between himself and Parliament that Parliament didn't even convene for 11 years.

And so what happened was that the country of England grew very dissatisfied with the king that just wanted to rule.

And Puritanism was in the soil of being able to really develop and blossom and grow, because central to Puritism was the idea of religious liberty.

And so if you have a king that's being, you know, domineering and dictatorial, you then start to have a people that began filing grievances with Parliament.

And on December 11, 1540, Parliament received a petition signed by over a thousand

Londoners entitled the Root and Branch Petition, which called for the removal of all archbishops, bishops, deans, archdeacons, priests, all of that.

And William Lawd was arrested. He was eventually tried, and he was eventually executed.

This then took the power of Charles I away, and he got so angry that he marched into the

House of Commons, Charles I did, and tried to arrest the ringleaders of Parliament. And what this led to then was the king going into exile and the king declaring war on Parliament.

So you had the English Civil Wars that took place. And on the side of the king was

Anglicanism, which was the idea that the king has the divine right, biblically, to rule and to govern, and the people must submit, that the church needs to be ran by bishops, and that sort of thing.

On the side of Parliament, you had the Puritans. These were the Presbyterians, and then the

Independents. John Bunyan would have been an Independent because he didn't espouse Presbyterian form of church government.

And they believed the Bible was on their side as well. They did not want bishops. They did not want the

Book of Common Prayer. They did not want vestments. They did not want altars. They didn't want these things because they thought they were too

Romish. They reminded them too much of the Roman Catholic Church. But at the heart of all of this was the

Church of England's slide completely away from Calvinism, which was really the central issue.

And so, the English Civil Wars were not only political, but they were religious.

And so, John Bunyan as a young man fights in the army of Oliver Cromwell.

He's part of the army of Parliament that's fighting against the king. What is John Bunyan fighting for?

He's fighting for religious liberty. He's fighting for the doctrines of grace. He's fighting for his right to be a

Baptist minister and to not be imprisoned. So, he was fighting for quite a bit so that by the time that he actually was converted, he wasn't converted in the military.

So again, he's fighting for these principles that he didn't maybe fully believe in his heart, but he was part of that, again, that religious climate.

By the time that he was converted, which was in the 1650s, he then began to pick up the sword of the spirit, that is the word of God, and he became a soldier of Christ and saying, we must fight for our right to worship the way that we want to worship.

And that's why he's such a hero to us, because he was willing to sacrifice so much over the things that we cherish so much.

We cherish our independence. We cherish our right to read the

Bible and to interpret the Bible and to be able to worship according to the way we want to worship instead of laws telling us how to worship.

These were all things that John Bunyan fought for. Well, we have to go to our midway break right now.

This is the longer than normal break that we have to have because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

FM in Lake City, Florida, who airs this program in a pre -recorded format twice a day in morning drive and 8 -10 in the evening as well, they, by FCC regulations, have to localize their programming to Lake City, Florida and therefore they air their own public service announcements while we air our globally heard commercials during this break.

So please be patient with us as we take this longer than normal break. Please use this time wisely by writing down all of the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them so subsequently they will more likely remain on the air as our advertisers, which subsequently will enable us to have a longer future for Iron Sherpa and Zion Radio because we cannot survive without the dollars that come through our advertisers' support.

So please try to patronize them as much as you can. And also write questions about John Bunyan and Pilgrim's Progress or anything in relation to that period in Christian history.

Write them down for our guest, Andrew Smith and send them to chrisarnson at gmail .com chrisarnson at gmail .com

Don't go away. God willing, we'll be back with Andrew Smith after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back, This is Chris Arnson if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is

Pastor Andrew Smith of Christ Reformed Community Church in st. John's, Florida We are discussing today in church history the arrest of John Bunyan Which took place on this very date in the 17th century.

I believe our guests told me that it was 1660 and we'll go we're going to be continuing that discussion momentarily

But we first have some very important announcements to make that we hope

Will edify you because I hope that you join me at some very important upcoming events

First of all, I hope that you join me in December Specifically Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th.

If you are a man in ministry leadership, which are the requirements for attending this event I hope you join me at the

Foundations Conference in New York City this is a conference hosted by sermon audio .com

and There are remarkable guests on the roster at this conference, including dr.

Stephen J Lawson Paul Washer Reverend Jeff Thomas Reverend Orman Tomasi and Richard Colwell jr.

And Andrew Quigley if you'd like to join me if you are a man in ministry leadership And on December 19th and 20th, that's

Thursday and Friday December 19th and 20th in New York City for the Foundations Conference Go to the

Foundations Conference calm the Foundations Conference calm then coming up in January from Thursday January 16th through Saturday January 18th,

I will be manning once again an exhibitors booth at the g3 conference g3 stands for gospel grace and glory and This January the theme is worship matters

This is being held once again at the Georgia International Convention Center in College Park, Georgia Which is a suburb of Atlanta and they always have an absolutely mind -blowing

Very long and very impressive roster of speakers which include once again, dr.

Stephen J Lawson They include my dear friend of many years going back to the 1990s.

Dr. James R White of Alpha Omega Ministries Phil Johnson the executive director of grace to you the media ministry of John MacArthur and Phil also happens to be

The most interviewed guest on iron sharpens iron radio in our history going back to 2005

My friend of Todd Friel host of wretched TV and radio my friend. Dr. Tom Askell who is the executive director of Founders ministries the

Calvinistic ministry within the Southern Baptist Convention Stephen J Nichols, who is the president of Reformation Bible College the college founded by the late

RC Sproul and Ligonier Ministries Kosti Hinn The convert out of the word of faith heresy.

He is actually the nephew of notorious heretic and charlatan Benny Hinn and He has

Renounced his uncle and his heresies and has become a reformed Baptist and a cessationist now pastoring very recently

In Arizona, he was in California and now has just taken a post in Arizona and there are many more speakers at this conference and the most recent edition is

John MacArthur himself And if it was only him speaking, I would still make the effort to go

To the Georgia International Convention Center to hear him preach if you'd like to join me

Thursday January 16th through Saturday January 18th at the Georgia International Convention Center for the g3 conference but a g3 conference comm

G3 conference comm and I also strongly urge you if you have a business a power church organization a

Special event that you want to promote or anything else That you want the body of Christ to know about in large numbers

I strongly urge you to not only attend the g3 conference, but also Register for an exhibitors booth and the exhibitors booth space will likely disappear a lot faster than the regular attendees seats, so I Would strongly urge you to register for an exhibitors booth very soon before they run out of room

Because they keep in mind folks if you've never been there They have over 5 ,000 people that attend the g3 conference every year and with John MacArthur added to the lineup

I am strongly confident. They're gonna have over 6 ,000 people So if you want to join me in manning an exhibitors booth, or if you just want to attend go to g3 conference calm g3 conference calm last but not least

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You look forward to sharing the free downloadable mp3s with family friends and loved ones You love the fact that we interview guests and cover topics that very often are never heard anywhere else

Well, please if you have the extra money, please help us survive Go to g3

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I mentioned. Please help us remain on the air our Donations have dwindled down to a frighteningly low level

We have a handful of very generous people that are keeping the show on the air through their donations and their advertising

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I don't know if they were raptured and I was left behind or what the case is, but please folks Please help us by going to iron sharpens iron radio dot -com click support then click click to donate now

You can also advertise with us if you send me an email to Chris Arnsett at gmail .com Chris Arnsett at gmail .com

you could put advertising in the subject line Also, if you are not a member of a Bible -believing Church, and you're not even prayerfully looking for one

You're living in rebellion against God I may be able to help you because I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the world

And I've already helped quite a number of people find churches in all parts of the world

Where they have joined these churches or they have visited them while on vacation Or they have recommended them to their family friends and loved ones who do not have churches

But if you are in that position just send me an email to Chris Arnsett at gmail .com and put I need a church in The subject line that's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guest

Andrew Smith on the subject of John Bunyan we are commemorating the arrest of John Bunyan today

Which occurred on this date in history in? 1660 isn't that right Andrew? 1660

So if you want to join us our email address is Chris Arnsett at gmail .com

And as always give us your first name city and state and country of Residence if you live outside the USA only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter

Well, let's hear more about why I previously said that this arrest of John Bunyan later revealed itself to be a

Monument to Romans 828 that all things work together for the good for those who love

God and are the cold According to his purpose His arrest is why we have in our hands today this tremendous work known as the

Pilgrim's Progress but if you could this give us more detail about his arrest and then continue on through the

The exit the coming into being the Pilgrim's Progress Yep, I'd be glad to do that Chris As I was saying this war between the king and Parliament In God's sovereignty was was a wonderful work of God because The Puritans united with Parliament were essentially seeking religious liberty from the

Church of England they did not want the government making laws about how they could worship and So it was

Oliver Cromwell led this this army of Parliament referred to as the new model army it quickly gained momentum and One of the interesting things that occurred is that Oliver Cromwell was actually not at not a

Presbyterian. So he was not Really in favor of a Presbyterian form of government

He did not want England to adopt the the church form of government known as Presbyterianism that the

Scottish had adopted Oliver Cromwell with an independent John Bunyan was an independent and so Parliament ended up winning the war.

They actually executed Charles the first and when they executed him, they held his head up after they chopped it off and What should have been a glorious victory for the

Puritans? Actually turned against them. I mean, this is this is why John Bunyan ended up being arrested

Well, then they when they cut off Charles the first head and you have this great victory of Parliament and the

Puritans and the Calvinists over England and Anglicanism and over the King the gasp from the crowd

Were louder than the cries of the soldiers hurraying the fact the King was dead

Wow, and what you had was a dark shadow over England where now people were so sick of war

You know the Civil War had been going on since 1641. It was now 1646 They there was a shame that sort of pervaded

England and you suddenly started to see a turning from a support of Oliver Cromwell and his army and the independence more toward a support of Parliament which wanted a

Presbyterian form of church government, which wasn't as controlling as the Episcopacy and that form of church government, but still to the independence gave too much power and control to higher -ups and a church hierarchy if you will and I really believe that if the

Presbyterians and independence could have somehow forged an alliance That maybe the

Church of England Wouldn't would have either ceased to exist or they certainly would not have become the dominating force

So the irony of history is that with the lopping off the Charles the first head By the

Puritans by Oliver Cromwell by the army, which you would think would be a great victory for Puritans It actually was sort of the beginning of the end for Puritans Because the people were so sick of the civil unrest they did not want an army, you know people would say well

It's better to have a king of the tyrant than to have an army, you know, that's killing people and so you began to see division between Parliament between the

Presbyterians and between the independence and That's when

Oliver Cromwell died in the year 1658 Well, I mentioned earlier that In 1658

Bunyan was warned stop preaching because if you don't you're going to be arrested. There's going to be laws that are coming

Well, that was a prophecy that came true 1658 Oliver Cromwell died his son Richard Cromwell became the

Lord Protector of the Commonwealth of England to succeed his father And he just wasn't an effective leader.

He resigned in 1660 two years later and that's when

Charles the second who was the son of Charles the first the executed King Charles the second now came out of exile and He was put back on the throne and he was pro

Anglican and the reason he was pro Anglican was because for 15 years While this war civil war is going on while the

Puritans were fighting Charles first and all of this William Lodge efforts to Condition the younger generation of England Through chaplains and tutors that got in the homes of the squires and the wealthy sort of people

By the time that Charles the second came to the throne He had been so conditioned to be anti -calvinistic and anti Puritan From those that surrounded him and the people that were now in Parliament in the seats of Parliament They were the younger up -and -coming generation.

They were all pro Anglican. So England turned again back to Anglicanism and That's when you had the restoration of the monarchy 1660

That's when John Bunyan was arrested and that's when he served his prison sentence but as you said

Chris that was used by God's sovereignty because Again, I go back to Paul Paul was bound by physical chains, but the

Word of God was not bound Apostle Paul was able to preach the gospel when he was in Roman imprisonment

So that the Turian guard heard the gospel people in Caesars household converted to Christ.

The same thing was true with Bunyan He was able to preach while he was in prison He wrote most of his works while he was in prison.

He wrote Pilgrim's Progress When he was in prison, it was actually a second imprisonment.

He was in prison for six months in 1675 So he was released in 1672 after a 12 -year sentence in 1675.

He was rearrested for six months And that's when he wrote the great work that we know of his

Pilgrim's Progress. What which is you all know Chris Is has been translated more than any other work other than the

Bible I mean, it's the first thing that missionaries traditionally have translated After they translate the

Bible because of its strong allegorical picturesque language of the spiritual truths of the

Christian now Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I also heard that I don't know if this has changed

But that Pilgrim's Progress Has also Been purchased more than any other book other than the

Bible in the history of literature. Is that is that true? I've heard that you know,

I don't know. I don't know who came up with that fact But but that's a common that's a common thing that that people say even people that aren't

Christian And I hope I hope that TD Jake's has not exceeded the sales of Pilgrim's Progress because there was a time when he was the the top -selling

Christian author which always Gave me great reason for projectile vomiting

Well, you know Chris, you know Bunyan is known for Pilgrim's Progress But what many of our listeners may not realize is that he actually wrote 60 books

That that that's an average of one book every year. He was alive. Obviously, he didn't write until he was converted in his mid -20s

That is an astounding number of publications and So Pilgrim's Progress is worth its weight in gold and had a huge impact

But he also wrote many many other works, you know Regarding fathers and their families the

Holy City, which was about heaven many many other works that People don't realize he was actually an apologist against he was an apologist for Christianity Against Quakerism, which a lot of people don't realize as well

So as you said earlier Chris, he was a brilliant man for being uneducated He was able to write not just you know allegory like Pilgrim's Progress But he wrote many practical and theological works that people are still reading today

And then even and perhaps a better way of phrasing it is that he was not formally educated because he certainly did educate himself

Yes, because he was indeed brilliant we have an anonymous listener

Who asks I have heard from both sides of the

New Covenant theology and Covenant theology divide That John Bunyan was one of their own

I have so many friends and brethren on both sides of this debate

That I don't know who to believe do you know which side is accurate was

John Bunyan more in Favor of what is now known as New Covenant theology or what's he more of a covenantal?

Calvinist Baptist as those who framed the 1689 London Baptist Confession later on in history

Yeah, well, let me offer an analogy that I think might be be helpful To answer this question, and I don't know if I'll be able to answer it in a satisfying way or not but if you go back to the period of the

Reformation you had both Roman Catholics and Protestants quoting

Church Father Augustine and you had both Roman Catholics and Protestants quoting of the same

Church Fathers and still today we do and still today We do so I don't think that I'm going to be able to answer this question in a way that satisfies everyone who is listening

But I think that that sometimes you can read Bunyan, and he certainly has a very strong emphasis on the

New Covenant Particularly, you know his position on baptism would be rooted in In an understanding of the

New Testament that would place the New Testament in Precedence over the

Old Testament not in terms of authority But in terms of how we interpret the Old Testament He would rather go to the

New Testament to understand the Old Testament And go to the Old Testament to understand the New Testament One of the works this is very interesting

That he considered to be most influential upon him other than Fox's Book of Martyrs Was Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians?

Now if you read Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians Martin Luther sounds an awful lot like a

New Covenant theologian or what many New Covenant theologians Right about today, and so I think an argument could be made that that that he that he

He had some of the same principles of the New Covenant guys no doubt But it's anachronistic to say that he was a

New Covenant theologian because that term didn't even you know come up right? Very recently right well the advocates of that theological system

Some of whom are actually sponsoring the show I have people on both sides of that debate sponsoring the show

They would claim even though the term Didn't evolve until very recent in history in the 1990s actually that the theological system did exist within Christendom in fact

I even remember when They came up with the term New Covenant theology I My late wife

Julie Before we were married as a member of a New Covenant Church And I became very close with her pastor who is now also in heaven

Don blend and he used to take me for a number of years to the John Bunyan conference And I remember it was about that time in the 1990s that they came up with the title

New Covenant theology in fact They originally called themselves New Covenant Reformed Baptists, and then later.

Yeah, that's right That's right, and some of the sweetest people I know are part of that movement people like you know

John Riesinger and Tom Wells that those men have been have ministered to me personally and are good friends and and Are men that love the

Lord and and are are in many ways that they are like John Bunyan modern -day you know

John Bunyan's in the sense that they They're brilliant people that are explaining things

Regarding the scriptures that are out of the normal orbit of what reformed people Typically would define you know the

Covenant is and those sorts of things So I think that it would be anachronistic to say that John Bunyan was a

New Covenant theologian But I don't think it would be inaccurate to say that he held too many of the same interpretive principles and even theological positions

IE baptism You know Credo baptism that is that many

New Covenant theologians espouse this day Yes well, thank you anonymous and Please keep listening to the program and keep spreading the word about I interpret design radio

Let's see here we have Bobby in Hartsdale, New York who wants to know did the

Anglican Church ever formally express their regrets and repentance to John Bunyan and ask for his forgiveness due to their harsh treatment of him

Not that I'm aware of Well, I mean Man I'm getting

A loss of memory at a fairly young age here Who was the

John Owen John Owen he obviously invited Bunyan to preach at his church after this was after the imprisonment wasn't it

Yeah, I'm not sure what the chronology of that is I would say though in reference to the question that You did have

You did have in that period after Cromwell Cromwell died you did have a period where the

Church of England was for lack of a better term gracious to The non -conformist there was a period of and even you know, the king would speak about the tender consciences of Of those who didn't fit in with the normal Traditions of the

Church of England And for that matter Oliver Cromwell was very gracious toward even

Roman Catholics, you know when he was Lord Protector You didn't see and I think

Chris this came up in it in a different episode. We did a few weeks ago You know

The Protestants did not treat one another with the hatred and vileness to the degree that the Roman Catholics treated the

Protestant That there was there was more grace Of course,

I say that and there was the English Civil War, you know where you where you had Anglican basically against Puritans So I'm not denying the fact that there was a bloodshed and that sort of thing and persecution of Baptists by persecution of Baptists Yeah, but there was

With the Roman Catholic Church, there was a zero tolerance policy you know for for Protestants and Bunyan's case he was actually free to Leave prison and to actually go to the church the

Bedford church that the Baptist Church and actually preach there So as bad as it was that he was in prison

He was allowed he had freedom. He had he was allowed to have visitors he was allowed to even go and and Preach and in a church that technically was a legally gathering

So again history is complicated and and there God's grace shines through in even the worst situation

So that whether there was a formal apology or not from the Church of England. I've never heard of that I do know that it could have been worse for John Bunyan.

John Bunyan did not die as a martyr He died on a preaching tour He was going to preach in London and he went out of his way to settle a quarrel between a father and a son and He got caught in and the rain and the wet weather got a cold caught a fever and died

There were men before him who were burnt at the stake, you know who had their heads chopped off No, so you have to put that in perspective and I don't think that he would have wanted the

Church of England to apologize He would want them to repent, you know, it turned back to right the product to a true

Protestantism because that was his issue The issue of the Puritans was that the Church of England was too

Romish that they were basically Undoing what the Reformation had done that that's what they fought for.

They didn't want apologies. They wanted repentance. They wanted a change Yes, and that that divide still exists.

I have very Calvinistic Friends in the ministry in the

Anglican Church who are sometimes low church sometimes high church, but All who are very opposed to the

Romish element in the Anglican Church the Oxford movement the Tractarians the pussy eights as they have been called and they're equally opposed to the

Roman side as they are to the apostate leftist side and So this this division still goes on today

But I think I think if I'm not mistaken that they will that after his release from prison

There were quite a number of Anglican congregations that joined John Owen in inviting

Bunyan to preach for them Yeah, that that is true. He was you know, a lot of people say that he was only, you know preaching in these contexts

You know under trees or in barns or at these illegally sanctioned covenant coven tickle meetings, but he actually was invited by parish churches

Anglican parish churches to preach and I think that that says a lot about his ability to Yes, he's willing to be arrested for what he believes in he's not going to compromise principles

But he's also willing to go certain places to preach if people were willing to listen, you know

He was able to to have a relationship with people on the other side In an effort to win them over and I think that says a lot about him that he would even be invited you know by by Anglicans to do that says a lot about his character and about his his personality one of the famous portraits of him and It's the famous portrait that's on any book, you know about John Bunyan or any picture you've seen of him it's usually a rendition of this portrait and Someone said that that is exactly what

Bunyan Bunyan looked like. He had he was he had glistening eyes He had a he had a smile.

I mean he had a very charismatic spirit. So I think he was a likable person and I think that is attributed to the work of Christ in his heart and in his life because he certainly wasn't that way

As a blasphemer in the military before his conversion Yes, in fact in the 19th century a church

An Episcopal Church in the United States in New York City was founded by Stephen Ting who is

Or should I say was he's now in heaven? he was a really

Ereudite brilliant low church Calvinist Episcopalian and I have visited the church that he founded which is currently pastored by Jacob Smith their rector who is a

Calvinist himself very conservative and He took me on a tour of the of the beautiful building of st.

George's in New York City And that has a very low church Architecture and Stephen Ting had a

Stained -glass window created in tribute to John Bunyan. So Oh, wow.

So it's a beautiful stained -glass Depiction of Bunyan Let's see here we have

Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania Who asks could you for the sake of our listeners who may be new

Christians or Non -christians who are unfamiliar with Pilgrim's Progress. Could you give a summary of this great work?

Yeah, I'd be glad to in short. It is is an allegory an allegory of the

Christian life it's about a Journey of Pilgrim to find the state of grace to find peace with God and He's met with many different characters along the way that try to persuade in this way or that way but he

The beauty of Pilgrim's Progress for those and I would encourage you know, I think every Christian should should read it

I don't think every Christian needs to be an expert on every little nuance but to at least be familiar with it because One of the things that we need to to recognize is that Scripture itself has a lot of allegory in it

Scripture itself describes Theology and picturesque language for example

I was preaching from Ephesians 6 on spiritual warfare this past Sunday because we're working through Ephesians the book of Ephesians and The whole passage on the spiritual armor where Paul says that we were to put the whole armor of God on Paul has in mind there's

Isaiah 59 17 which speaks about the armor that that God himself wears

He has a zeal a cloak of zeal, you know, he puts on the breastplate He he avenges wrath on his adversaries

That's very picturesque picturesque language of God is a warrior

God is a man of war and Someone described Bunyan as if you want to understand his writings, you need to understand him as someone who saw spiritual conflict and spiritual warfare at the heart of the

Christian And when you read Pilgrim's Progress, you see the you see that battle, you know developing in the life of Pilgrim and So there's a way that pictures bring home certain truths that are important for the

Christian And so I would encourage anyone to read Pilgrim's Progress. It's a great work and by the way, we have finally received from Mike Gadosh a

Solid ground Christian books the sales that he is offering In connection to today's broadcast and by the way,

Mike Gadosh sends his warmest regards to you pastor Andrew He fondly remembers you and having even had the privilege of speaking with you at a conference at the

Sovereign Grace family church in Jacksonville So he wants to offer you his greetings

Well, he is a he is a wonderful man and I would just say that you know He has the best bookstore in the world.

So buy his stuff up and buy a lot of it. Amen well, he's offering the George offer edited edition of The Pilgrim's Progress for $5.

He's offering Derek Thomas's DVD set of lectures on Pilgrim's Progress for $8

George Cheever's lectures on Pilgrim's Progress for $8. And if you get all three

It will be $20 and the retail price would normally be $100

So you're saving $80 if you buy all of those to the solid -ground -books .com

Solid -ground -books .com. Thank you. Mike Gadosh for making that offer available to our listeners

And we're going to our final break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own

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I'm dr. Terry Kimbrough pastor bethlehem baptist church in Laurel, Mississippi God tells us in James 127 that pure and undefiled religion is a visit to fatherless and widows and their affliction in the providence of God three years ago

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BBC Laurel calm again The address is Bethlehem Baptist Church 838

Reed Road Laurel, Mississippi 39443 or BBC Laurel calm welcome back

Welcome back folks. I just want to give you some exciting news tomorrow

We have my friend Gary DeMar returning to iron sharpens iron radio

And he's going to be discussing the new edition of his very controversial and fascinating book

Last day is madness. I will be joined by Christopher McDowell a pastor one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, Long Island, New York will be a co -host with me and Possibly we are not certain yet, but possibly

Jeff Durbin Pastor Jeff Durbin of Apologia Church and Apologia radio may be joining us as well as a co -host since both of those men have been enormously blessed by Gary's book

Last day's madness. So make sure you mark your calendars for that. And also Keep in mind that when this show is over my dear friend

Joe Jackowitz of first love radio org His sermons are heard immediately following iron sharpens iron radio

So if you can please remain on the live streaming so that you can hear this very powerful preacher of the

Word of God my friend Joe Jackowitz of Christ Bible Church in Dublin, California We are now back with our guest today

Andrew Smith and Andrew I would like you to for about three minutes or so Summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today in regard to John Bunyan perhaps specifically the arrest of John Bunyan and what this means for Christians today

Well, I think that it means for Christians that all Christians should be readers

John Bunyan was Not formally educated, but he was self -educated and he was

Not afraid to pick a book up and to read it and to learn from other men He was a very committed student of Scripture his

Vocabulary was just filled with Scripture. He had a lot of Scripture committed to memory

And so in that sense, I think he's a wonderful example for all Christians He's also an example to those who are ministers or who are pastors

Because he was someone who not only was able to argue theological points, you know

He wrote on the issue of baptism, for instance, but he also wrote pilgrims progress

So he was able to write things that could minister to children that they could minister to to younger people

He was a preacher and that's what he was known for He was known for being able to stand behind a pulpit and open up God's Word and people would listen

But the reason he died was because of a pastoral duty That he felt like he needed to perform and trying to settle this dispute between a father and a son as I mentioned earlier he left

His normal path on his preaching tour near London and went to try to settle this dispute between a father and a son

That ultimately led to him catching a fever and a cold and dying all because he cared for Those that he shepherded he cared for those

Maybe those things that as pastors we don't Normally think it's our job to do you know to try to settle a dispute between a father and a son

You know, our job is to write and to preach and to do those things which that is our duty to do But it's also our duty to be a pastor and to love the people that are under our charge

So I think Bunyan speaks to ministers I think he sets a wonderful example for Christians as well

And I would encourage all the listeners to pick up a copy of Pilgrim's Progress and Especially that great deal that Mike Gaydosh gave that's you know what they call that Chris.

They call that a good deal And he does have multiple versions of Pilgrim's Progress and and There needs to be a caveat here

I learned from Barry Horner years ago as an expert on John Bunyan and on Pilgrim's Progress that there are

Versions of this work that are actually mutilations of hits that should not be purchased or read

There's even a Roman Catholic version of Pilgrim's Progress Which obviously militates against the core message of that book, which is the grace of God And militates against anything that a man could possibly believe could help him to merit his way to heaven

So and and also there's all other kinds of modernized versions that Have destroyed the central message of John Bunyan.

So be careful when you're purchasing Pilgrim's Progress either in book form or in video form and A very safe place to purchase a good edition of it would be solid -ground -books .com

solid -ground -books .com And I want to make sure our listeners have your website for Christ Reform Community Church In St.

John's, Florida, it's christreformedcc .com christreformedcc .com

How can our listeners Listen to your podcast today in church his story h -i -s -s -t -o -r -y

Yep, they can do that a couple of different ways. They can visit my personal website www .heartaflame

.org www .heartaflame .org www .heartaflame .org www .heartaflame .org

You can access both my sermons and my podcasts there or if you are fancy and use

Apple iTunes You can subscribe by searching for today in church history. Just make sure you spell history h -i -s -s -t -o -r -y

Or it won't show up and when you search for it Great. Well, it has been a joy, as it always is, when

I interview you, Andrew. I look forward to your return to Iron Trip and Zion Radio, and I'm waiting with bated breath to find out what moment in church history or landmark in church history we're going to address in the month of December.

And I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

And don't forget about our interview tomorrow with Gary DeMar on his new edition, his updated version of last day's madness.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.