Colossians And Church Members

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Heavenly Father, we continue to celebrate your resurrection in our lives. And this morning, we do so corporately with others who claim to have been redeemed by your blood, by your atoning work on the cross.
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And we thank you for this joyful day, this joyful opportunity to gather together. May the preaching of your word honor your name, whether it's in this
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Sunday school, whether it's in the other Sunday schools, and I pray that you would be exalted. To those who have rejected you, would you have mercy on them, forgive their sins and bring them into your fold.
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For those you have mercifully redeemed, may we be encouraged to love and good works.
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And may we be encouraged even today as we listen to this message. In the
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Lord's mighty name, I pray, amen. Today, I'm going to wrap up the series on how to live in the year 2017.
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If you have been following me, some of you have been intrigued by the series. I've gotten lots of emails, lots of comments.
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I want to thank you for the good discussions we've been having online. And I hope that you are encouraged and that you will continue to share not only the good news, but also what
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I've been teaching here with friends and family. What we've looked at is that your
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Christology directs everything in your life. Your view of Christ affects all other theology.
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Therefore, it affects the way you think and affects the way you behave. And it also affects the way you praise
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God. It is important and critical to have a high view of Christ. And we've looked at this sufficiently from the book of Colossians.
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In 2017, people are clearly stressed out. They're stressed because of a number of reasons.
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Because they are putting their hope in things that are not eternal. Because many people believe that Christ is not sufficient for salvation or for sanctification.
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So what have we been looking at? What are Christians turning to as I wrap up this series?
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For those of you who've been here for all four weeks, what are the few things we've looked at specifically that Christians are turning to in order to relieve stress in their lives?
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See if anybody remembers. Gary? CrossFit and yoga. We went deep into those things, defining them and how it's wrong and dangerous to go into them.
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What else did we go into? Good. Yoga and CrossFit. Anybody remembers anything else?
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Last week? Controversial topic. We did?
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Yes. Yes. We looked at politics last week.
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We looked at how many people are turning to politics, whether it's liberal or conservatism, to relieve their stress and to define who they are and how they have such high views of their politics or they have such high political views that they refuse to evangelize people who are not of the same view.
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And that is not what we have been called to do in the church. And that is not the way those who have truly been redeemed by Christ should behave.
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We don't uphold. We love politics. We take part in it. But we don't use it as a tool to separate from others. And we've looked at a lot of things.
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Today, I want to take a different direction as I wrap up this series. I want to talk about the church.
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Specifically, before Paul gets into Colossians chapter 3 and 4, he wants the
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Colossians to have a high view of Christ. He's reminding them that Christ is sovereign. He is the creator.
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He is the one who saves lost sinners. And how without having a high view of Christ, you cannot have, you will not treat those in the church with love or with compassion.
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You won't be able to honor him in marriage, in parenting, as employees, as employers, how it affects everything else.
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So Paul is saying, okay, before he goes to 3 and 4, he literally asks the question, you claim to have a high view of Christ?
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Okay, let's see how you live it as he goes in through the imperatives in Colossians chapter 3 and 4.
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I'm going to talk today about a topic that is very rarely discussed, but two pastors again have done a lot of work on this, both
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Dr. John MacArthur as well as Dr. Tabithi Anyabili, who has preached at the
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Shepherds Conference a lot. And that is a topic of how to leave a church.
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If you claim to have a high view of Christ, the way you even leave a church is shown in that.
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And it is a matter that is important. It is a matter that shows that you submit to the scriptures and that Jesus Christ is
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Lord even in that difficult moment. And no matter what your reasons are, and we'll discuss some of the reasons today that people leave churches, we'll go into what are the nine marks of a healthy church?
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What are the wrong reasons to leave a church? What are the right reasons to leave a church? And finally, and importantly, how do you leave a church?
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Okay, people say, yes, we talk about church membership a lot and that is very important. But from what
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I have observed over the last 10 years, this is something that we can sin against God in.
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And whether you like it or not, it betrays what you truly believe about Christ. So before we start that, let's remind ourselves of the gospel.
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What is the gospel? I'll take two minutes, but let's look at it. I know many of you are rolling your eyes.
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Oh, we know the gospel, but we should be encouraged. It's a good way to start a Sunday morning. What do we see in Genesis 1 and 26 and 28, 228?
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We see that God created man in his image and a holy God created us and he created us with one intent, to know him.
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But as we see in Genesis chapter 3 and Romans chapter 3, man sinned and that caused a massive separation between God and man.
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But in his great love, God came in the form of Jesus Christ, fully
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God, fully man. He lived a perfect life, fulfilled all of the laws and he died.
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He died taking upon himself the penalty for sins of those who would believe in him, sins of whom
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God would choose to be his redeemed. And we see this in John chapter 1,
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Hebrews chapter 7, Romans 3, Romans 5. If you don't believe in this, this is what the
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Bible says. But that's not all. In Acts chapter 2, this is why we meet on Sundays.
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What happened in Acts chapter 2? After the resurrection, there was a monumental occasion. That is the ascension.
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And we know that Christ rose again from the dead. What did that show?
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That God the father who is holy has accepted the work of Christ and has begun the work of bringing back humanity into the image of God.
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We see this in Romans chapter 4, 25 as well. And finally, what are we to do when we hear this, when we see
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God's holiness and that Christ is the only way, the only truth and the only life?
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We are called from books like from chapters in Acts chapter 17, 30,
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John chapter 1, 2. We are called to repent and believe in the Savior. Not in anybody else, but in Christ and in Christ alone.
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In John 3, 16 and onwards, we also see if we do repent of our sins and believe in him, we are granted eternal life and we are made right with God.
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But one aspect of the gospel that most people miss in their presentation is what I'm going to remind you of right now.
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We often stop there. We say, holy God, what should man do?
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Who is Christ and then what should man do? But we miss one essential thing. God is gathering his people, one people in Christ.
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One people in the Lord Jesus Christ who are to submit to his lordship, who are to love one another.
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And God has chosen that this group of people becomes the means for which you spread the gospel.
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Anybody know what this gathering of people is called? It's called the church.
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We often miss this in our presentation of the gospel. We often forget how important the church is in the gathering of new people under one savior, under one
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Lord. We see this in Matthew chapter 16 verses 15 to 19 and Ephesians chapter 2 verses 11 to 19.
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So these are good references to have as you go, as you think about the church and the gospel.
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Anything I missed in the gospel? Anything you wanted to add? Anything that you guys use when you share the good news with others?
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Larry. Excellent. Upon his obedience, which is shown through his resurrection, which is why God the father accepted him, the sinner is justified.
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That is, he's declared not guilty because of Christ's imputed righteousness. Excellent. Thank you. Anything else?
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That was very good. Bob. Sure. I have to look at the context of John 16, but he was talking to his disciples.
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Oh, I'm pretty sure. He's talking to his disciples. I don't know. I'd have to look at the context and tell you exactly what it is.
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But remember the Holy Spirit wasn't physically there upon them till the
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Pentecost. So it may be specifically Christ talking to the disciples and equipping them to preach about repentance and the gospel.
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It could be specific to that, but I'll have to study that text before telling you. Okay. Let's look at nine marks of a healthy church before we go on to how to leave a church.
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These are the minimal nine marks. After I've been studying this for seven years, if you ask me,
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Mark Dever has done a phenomenal job with these nine marks. You could have more, but you need at least these nine in my study.
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Okay. Now, what are some of the things that you guys think about? Anybody looked at this website before coming to Bethlehem Bible Church?
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Larry, Steve, Pauline. Good. So you guys, we can start with you.
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Do you remember some of the main points? There are nine marks. Anybody remember? Excellent. That's point number one.
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And that is, we can sum that up as expositional preaching. If you notice, Pastor Steve sent out an email this week explaining why we do expository sermon and how important it is.
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Bringing out the text, explaining what that means, what that meant to the original audience and what it means to us.
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Good. Any more points from nine marks? Anybody who's been on the website before and studied it? Gary.
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Evangelism. Very important. That's one of the points. Steve.
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Corporate prayer. Good. Let's go through these. The first is expositional preaching.
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Second is biblical theology. That is having sound doctrine. Doctrine not from the culture, doctrine not from feelings, but doctrine that comes from the word of God.
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Biblical theology. Knowledge from the Bible. Very important as a mark of the church. Third, the gospel, which is why
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I began with that. Very, very important to get that right. Very important mark of a church, of a healthy church, of a
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New Testament church. The gospel. Number four, conversion.
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Specifically, in addition to the gospel, what did God do building upon the gospel?
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That's what Mark Dever means by this point. What should man do in response? How does it play out in daily living?
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That's what it means. Number five, as Gary said, evangelism. Question.
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If you get the gospel wrong, could you get evangelism right? I don't think so.
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And a church that understands the gospel needs to share the good news with unbelievers.
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If we say we understand the gospel, we have to share the good news with unbelievers.
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It goes. And that is a mark of the healthy church. And that does not just mean Worcester evangelism on Saturdays, which is wonderful.
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It also means we going out and preaching the word with our friends and family and others.
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Number six, church membership. Mind you, he goes into length into defining what this is.
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If this is not just a casual association, you're not just going to church as a social club, as going to a baseball game.
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There's no commitment. For most people, there's no commitment. There's no ministry. There's no importance in prayer and fellowship.
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This is just a social gathering. You know, I've been in work six days a week. I want to go and have some fun, mingle around with people.
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And that's what most Christians view church membership as. There's no commitment. Let me just go hang out and then go home.
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A church that is healthy and that is based on the New Testament epistles needs to encourage and needs to uphold church membership.
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It is very important. It is not just a casual association. Number seven, church discipline.
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My wife always says this, that even though she grew up in reformed churches, Bethlehem Bible Church was the first one to practice church discipline.
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The first one. It's an important mark. It's not in the broad sense, it's teaching and helping
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Christians and helping each other. But in a narrow sense, it's admonishing, it's correcting those who are struggling with sin.
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And unfortunately, in extreme cases, it also means pulling people out of church membership.
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Hard, painful thing to do. But it is biblical. Point number eight, discipleship.
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Scripture says we not just teach the word, what do we do? We are to be imitators of the word.
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And how do you imitate if you're not in some kind of discipleship? So that's a good mark of a healthy church, being discipled and being someone who disciples.
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And I hope that you guys are. That's a whole different teaching, so I won't get into that. Number nine, leadership.
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Plurality of godly elders who are teaching and watching and protecting the sheep.
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So those are the nine marks of a healthy church. More information, you can go to Mark Dever's website, he'll give you more there.
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Okay, any questions, anything you wanted to add there? I thought it was good for us to remind ourselves of what those are as we go into the next topic.
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Okay, let's get to controversy. John McArthur says this about leaving a church.
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And I quote, leaving a church is not something that you should do lightly.
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Too many people abandon churches for petty reasons. Disagreements over simple matters of preference are never a good reason to withdraw from a sound
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Bible -believing church. This is hard to do, but easy to say.
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But as I go into several texts today, we need to carefully think about this.
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Now, if you look at the top 10 reasons why people leave a church, you will laugh out loud, maybe you'll cry too.
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But who knows what are the top reasons why in the United States of America, people hop from church to church or people leave churches.
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Put your thinking hats on, smile, enjoy this. Two minutes, Steve. Praise music.
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Yes, kind of music, right? Yes, people do run out of churches because there is no drum near the pulpit. That's true.
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Janet? The music, all right. Wow, the music is a big thing. Yes, but you will be surprised.
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It's not top 10. Okay, come on, give me some more. Okay, yes.
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Okay. Okay, yes. Yes, I guess it's very surfboard culture versus something else, but it drives people away.
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Good. So the way the pastor dresses is important. Yes, that's true, by the way. That's that top 10.
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That is in the top 10, Steve. Yes, yes.
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Okay, that is in top 10. Yes, that is one of the reasons people leave the church. Yes, not happy with the children's programs.
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That's a big one. Not happy specifically with how the nurseries run or not sufficient daycare is actually a big one.
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Somebody, Charlie? Okay, okay.
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All right, let me get to my list. All right, are you guys ready for the first top? I'm going to go through these quickly, so laugh and enjoy.
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Number one reason why people leave churches, the pastor's voice. Now you know why
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I can't be a pastor. Next, ready? The lack of a cat or dog club.
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No, I'm not joking. Top 10 reasons why people leave a church. Number three, the pastor not looking enough in your direction.
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Number four, not enough coffee stands. Come on, we know this one.
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Come on, come on. I've seen you guys with your three jugs of Dunkin' Donuts.
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Come on. And while I like Tim Tebow, guess what?
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Many people are leaving churches that do not talk enough about him. Yes, wow,
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Larry. Love your response. Oh, you didn't hear what I said. Oh, that's worse.
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People are leaving churches because pastors are not talking enough about Tim Tebow. Tim Tebow, he is a
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Florida Gator. Oh, don't get me. Oh, sorry. Yeah, don't get me started on college football. Okay, and I'll stop.
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This is my last reason. People are leaving some churches. This is an older couple said this, and there are many people who follow this.
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They're leaving. We are leaving the church because there is a red cross on the building. Red is the color of the devil.
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These are funny reasons, aren't they? And these are silly too. These are, this is a culture that is abandoning the
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Bible quickly and making up excuses to leave church. What are some of the right reasons to leave a church?
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And I'll go through a few of these and go through scripture. Number one, heresy on some fundamental truth is being taught from the pulpit.
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Good reason to leave a church. Good reason. Galatians 1, 6 to 9. Paul, I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting
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Him who called you in the grace of Christ and who are turning to a different gospel. Not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
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But even if we are an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preach to you, let him be accursed.
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Verse 9, as we have said before, and so now I say again, if anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
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This is Paul hammering in the importance of gospel -centered preaching and saying that you need to run if there's heresy.
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Okay, there's a good reason to run away from a church. Number two, the leaders of the church tolerate seriously errant doctrine from any, and hear this out, from any who are given teaching authority in the church.
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Romans 16, 17. This is Paul saying again, Romans 16, verse 17.
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I appeal to you, brothers, watch, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught.
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Avoid them. What is this saying? Just to make sure that you guys understand what this point is.
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What did I just say? What does Galatians, what does Romans say? And what is the second point? That is a good reason to leave.
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If it makes you feel any better, I, like all of my job interviews have normally been four to five weeks.
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It's not more than that. But when I first came to BBC, it was literally six months. The elders tried to figure out, okay, what does this guy believe?
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And I completely agree with them. They beat it out of me to make sure that if when I would teach, that I would not teach heresy.
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And if the leaders are not being careful to put who they're putting up into Sunday schools and who they're putting up in ministry, good reason to run.
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Next, the church is characterized by a wanton disregard for scripture, such as refusal to discipline members who are sinning blatantly.
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1 Corinthians 5, verses 1 to 7. 1 Corinthians 5, verses 1 to 7. It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans.
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For a man has his father's wife and you are arrogant? Ought you not rather to mourn?
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Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit.
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And as of present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the
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Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver the man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that the spirit may be saved in the day of the
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Lord. Verse 6, 1 Corinthians 5. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump?
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Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you are really are unleavened.
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For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. What is that saying?
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It's pretty clear. I mean, in the church, we have what is called church discipline. And here's a reason.
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Paul is animate. Paul is passionate as he puts this out here. What's wrong if there is no church discipline?
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Understanding human depravity. And by the way, watch what he says. He says, he's not just saying, give the man for destruction.
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He's saying, have mercy on him. Dismiss him. And treat him as an unbeliever, preaching the gospel to him and loving him from that angle.
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He's not saying do away with him in that sense. But what is he saying here in 1 Corinthians 5? Steve? Yes.
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Why? Yes, because we're sinners.
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And we like to imitate what we see. And we think we look for reasons to sin. And here's another reason. Cut it out, else it's a problem.
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So if a church does not do this, it's not upholding holiness. And it's a good reason to run.
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Three more reasons. And then I'll stop there. 1 Corinthians 5, 9 to 11 talks about another reason you can leave a church.
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If unholy living is tolerated in a church. Again, you see that it's tied to 1
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Corinthians in the few verses before. 2 Thessalonians 3, 6, and 14.
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If the church is seriously out of step with the biblical pattern of the church.
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It could be roles. It could be dealing with issues inside the church.
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Are the elders and the leaders getting their ideas from the Bible? Or is it from somewhere else? What's the biblical pattern?
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We see that in 2 Thessalonians. We see that in the pastoral epistles. If they're not, good reason to leave.
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And the last one I'll look at today. If the church is marked by gross hypocrisy.
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You know, where we are so tied to giving lip service to biblical
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Christianity. But when it comes to actually living it out and obeying, the church does not obey. The church does not acknowledge the true power of Christ and the gospel in the everyday life of the church and the believer.
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So you're preaching good, but you don't really show any obedience or acknowledgement of that truth by living and submitting to the
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Lord. Another good reason where it's hypocrisy. It's confusing.
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Another good reason to leave a church. So the reasons I said before that are not good reasons.
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Like picking your pastor's voice or checking if there's a dog club in the church. But if there is, these things that I mentioned, it's good to be aware of that and leave.
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And while these are pretty intense and they're pretty biblical reasons.
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There's still nothing wrong with leaving a church when you see room for growth or there's more ministry opportunities in another church.
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But even then, how do you leave a church? And that's what I'm getting into right now.
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It doesn't matter if you're leaving for the wrong reasons, the right reasons.
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There still is a way to leave a church. And something for us to think about, although we can't substitute the world with the church.
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How do you leave? How do you give your resignation from work? What is the protocol for some of you guys in the companies that you work for?
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Is there a protocol? Do you just walk up and leave? What is the protocol? Is there one? And how do you honor it?
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Anybody? Simon? Two weeks notice, some resignation letter,
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I'm leaving, transition of work, something like that, right? Okay. So you give a two weeks notice, Steve?
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Yes, that's very good. So that's from a church perspective. Yes, that's very good. In startup companies, that is required.
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Most large companies don't require you to talk directly to the VPs. But if you're in a startup company, you need to write a letter to the vice president and the president telling them why you're leaving.
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Excellent. So somebody can pick up from where you're leaving. So all of this reminds us that even in the world with our jobs, there's an etiquette, there's a decorum that we all stress on before you leave.
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But how about when you're going through a church? Number one reason how to leave a church.
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I got 10 minutes to do these, but these are important. So let's think through them. I'm not saying we all leave the church tomorrow.
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I've already given you probably nine reasons why we shouldn't in one way, right? Looking at the hard marks of a healthy church.
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But this is still important. And I'll get to why. I'll give you one reason when I end, but how to leave a church.
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Number one, talk to the elders. First thing that Steve said. Something that we fail to do.
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You know, tell the leaders, okay, why are you leaving? Sit down with them. Maybe they could shepherd your heart and help you change your mind.
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Maybe. Even if you don't, they might, you'll both be at peace.
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It's a win -win situation. You can leave with no guilt. And the elders and the leaders may know, okay, there is a little gap somewhere in our ministry or they might not be one.
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They can address it. You don't just pick up and run. You talk to the elders. You sit down with them.
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These are brothers in Christ. And we should treat them like that. But that's not what happens, is it? People disappear.
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They let their emotions pile up because that's who we are as human beings. We let our emotions pile up.
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There's unforgiveness and there's bitterness and you run out of the church. I love what
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Pastor Anya Billy does. Before any new member joins his church, he calls the pastor of their previous church or sits down with the new member and finds out if there's any conflicts and all the reasons they left the church.
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Unless they resolve the conflict with their previous church, he will not take the member in. Does that sound harsh to anybody?
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Doesn't to me. Because this man understands it's a global church. It's not a social club.
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This is a church under Christ, under one God. And the way we treat each other matters even when we leave the church.
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That's the first point. Anything to add? Subtract? Point two.
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This sounds obvious to me. Resolve any outstanding conflicts. Matthew chapter 5, verse 23 and 24.
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Does somebody want to read Matthew chapter 5, verse 23 and 24? Pastor Harry preached on not this text but on a similar text last week.
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Matthew 5, 23, 24. Last week as Pastor Harry was preaching, he said, when you pray, what was the main term he used?
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The main attitude we need to have towards others when we come praying. Humility, that expresses itself primarily in what?
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In relationship to others. Forgiveness. Forgiveness.
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Remember he walked through the Lord's prayer last week and what was the main point that he said when you come to prayer? A forgiving heart because you have been forgiven.
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And here in Matthew 5, this is Christ saying, you need to fix things with your brother before you come and make the sacrifice.
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No sacrifice anymore but your relationship with others does matter as it affects your relationship vertically with God.
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What are some of the conflicts people may have in the church? I understand this is a controversial topic but I'm not afraid.
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What are some of the conflicts that people have in the church? Yes, that's exactly right. The problem is it piles on instead of immediately sitting down with the elder and just talking.
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And sometimes the elders to the scripture will humble us. That's what we need. That's why we're in the church. But that's a big thing.
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The expectations are not met. Often it's some kind of personal conflict with somebody else. It's an unforgiveness issue with one member and it spreads on.
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Often it spreads through social media. They need to be resolved before you leave the church.
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This is not just one local body. We're dragging the name and the word of Christ through the mud when we do this.
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So before we leave a church, we need to resolve any outstanding conflicts. And I like what
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Anya Billy says. He says, if you obey the Lord in this, that is in leaving without conflict or resolving the conflict, everybody wins.
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Lord willing, you win your brother over and the relationship is mended. You may find you don't even have to leave at all and experience renewed joy in the church.
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You need to sit down in the church family that has invested in you and that you have invested in for years of your life.
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Even if you still need and want to leave, at least you keep Ephesians 4, 3 in your mind, which is what?
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You've made every effort to maintain the unity of the brother, the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.
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Point number three, how to leave a church. Express appreciation for the church's ministry.
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What happens, let's take a real case. What happens when you suddenly leave a church and let's say you're in a discipleship you're being discipled or the pastors and the elders have been involved teaching you and suddenly you leave a church, what happens?
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What is your attitude at that time when you're leaving? What do we call it?
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It's a very simple term. You've been in ministry, you've been ministered to, you've been fed and suddenly you just leave.
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Selfishness, self -centeredness, that's good. But what specifically are you not doing?
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We've spoken about this. Paul uses this term a lot in the book of Colossians, a lot.
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Pray abounding in thanksgiving, praying abounding in thanksgiving.
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When you suddenly pick up and leave, you're showing that you are not thankful for the years of ministry that the elders and the leaders and others have put into your life.
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And what happens is suddenly everybody's like, what happened? Why did they leave?
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Is there, if it's a true church, can you admit that there's at least probably one good thing about a truly good church?
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There's at least one. If you can, okay, let's pick a really, is there a, what is the most difficult, most sinful church in the
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New Testament? Who's at Corinth? Somebody's at Corinth. Hi, yes, sorry,
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I didn't mean to say hi. So yes, Corinth was, and particularly, the lack of a better word, difficult church to deal with, causing plenty of heartache to Paul.
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But even in that, if you look throughout the book, 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians, even 1 Corinthians chapter 1 verses 4 and 5, despite their significant problems,
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Paul kept commending them. It was a true church. It was.
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And so are many churches that follow the word of God and that submit to his lordship.
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There's something to be thankful for in every church. Are we appreciative of that?
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And when you leave suddenly, you show that you didn't care or you were not appreciative of other people's ministry in your life.
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And that's a big deal. We should celebrate God's church long before we decide to leave, long before we decide to leave.
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How often do we say thank you to those who minister the word of God, to your children, to your children's children, to who have stayed up with you in the night in the parking lot here?
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And when you leave, you say none of that mattered, none of it. And the leaders are left with a little bit of a hole, wondering what happened.
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We should note the positive ways in which our churches have blessed us spiritually and continually.
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We should note that. And we should express it often. Anything to add or to say before I go to the next point?
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But that still requires you. My argument is that still requires you to talk to the elders. That still requires you to say thank you to those who minister to you.
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That still requires you to resolve your conflicts. And after all of that, you still decide to leave. That's perfectly fine.
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But there has to be peace and a kind of this transition over. I think that's the thing.
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And that's what I said. There's nothing wrong with leaving a church when you do feel like you have more opportunities to minister and to grow in another church.
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I would say express that before you leave. That was my point. Point number four, say goodbye to family and friends.
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Has anybody been living in a little pot inside the church when you became a member?
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Chances are, even if you're an introvert, that you have gone out and ministered and spent time with people.
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And they've become family and friends. Maybe even one person. Agreed? Unless you have completely isolated yourself from all kinds of fellowship.
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You've invested in relationships. You've spent time ministering and being ministered. And whether you like it or not, many of these relationships do mean a lot to us and do mean a lot to the people we're about to say goodbye to.
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So like we do at work and like we do elsewhere in other relationships, it's good to take a moment to say goodbye.
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Peacefully. As much as possible. Because it's greater than us. It's not just about some one local church.
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It's much bigger than that. And we end up, once again, dragging Christ's name through the mud.
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And the people outside are looking at this and saying, what is going on? We don't want things to be awkward.
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So it is important to say goodbye to as many people as we can.
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And people in that way will feel like they're loved and cared. And that you weren't just a social experiment for the last 10 years.
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Yes. So you're saying that instead of going to the leaders first, you're going to the others?
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You mean going through the body before resolving it with the elders? No. I don't understand. You didn't resolve it with the elders.
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Ah, okay. So that's, I would say that's horrible.
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Because now you're causing dissension. And believe it or not, if you... Well, I think my argument is you should still say goodbye.
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You should still say bye to people instead of just coming on the pulpit and just saying, okay, we're out of here next week.
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You know, my argument at this point is take the time to say goodbye over a meal or over a coffee with people.
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Whether you sit and discuss what are all the reasons that you left and what are all the disagreements you had, my argument at that point is you shouldn't be discussing that.
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This is just a goodbye. By the time you reach here, it's just a goodbye. It's just a thank you to other people instead of just walking out and leaving.
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And leaving this hole in the fellowship. Because what's happening is people are not saying goodbye for the same reasons because they've not resolved it with their elders.
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And what's happening? Facebook is exploding with garbage about people leaving churches.
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And Christ's name is undermined. And churches and elders are being undermined.
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That's my argument. It's not that... I think you should say goodbye. And that's my point in the right way.
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I think there's a lot of responses to that depending on the situation. But what is your attitude in leaving?
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If you're thinking biblically and you've done the other steps, by the time you reach here, there is peace.
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You're not fighting with others. So you would be able to explain, okay, this is why I'm leaving. I'm having trouble with this doctrine.
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I don't understand it. And here's what we have decided to move on. I'm unconvinced that this doctrine is the way it should be.
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I'm unconvinced. Therefore, I'm leaving. I think most people by that time, by your attitude and the way you've done things will say, okay, we love you.
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We wish you the best. It's not to leave abruptly and then throw up on Facebook.
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Yes. And I agree with you. Yes. And I completely agree with you.
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My only counterpoint would be, I would say this is not for the elders. It's not for the leaders.
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It's primarily for us. I think the elders understand these things and they know it very well.
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They've dealt with it. But it's for the rest of us who, I'm not saying
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I'm leaving. I'm just saying from what I've been here seven years long enough to see, many people leave well, and many people don't and the problems it causes.
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So it's just from a layman's perspective in one way, yet I'm going to the Bible. So it's not a to -do list for the elders.
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It's primarily for us and how we think through things. So, and the final point, and I think this was a very good point.
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Leaving a church, this is the last point, be honest about your failings, your efforts, and your motives. Good one, right?
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It's the hardest thing to do. Be honest about your failings, your efforts, and your motives. Matthew 7, verses 3 and 4, the
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Lord Jesus Christ said, you know, you pull the log out of your own eye before you pull the log out of your brother's eye.
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You know, I don't want to twist the words, but one thing I would say is, we ought to be careful trying to pull, before we pull the speck out of the church's eye, we should pull the big log in our own eye out.
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We should examine our motives and our failings before we leave a church. And like Dan said, right, this exposes our self -centeredness and our self -exaltation when in fact, before leaving a church, it should cause us to examine ourselves, to examine our motives.
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And whether we like to admit it or not, we have very high views of our purity. We have very high views of ourselves.
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And when we try to leave a church, if you notice, it's all dated this, dated that, and really, really nothing to do with us.
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So my idea is, if Jesus Christ is Lord, and we believe in the Christological high point of the
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New Testament, which is Colossians 1, 15 to 20, and we have a high view of Christ, we ought to honor the
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Lord, even in this difficult task of leaving a church. And that is what
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I wanted to help us to think about. And what are our failings? Did we participate in ministry as joyfully and completely as we could?
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Did we give all of ourselves to the growth of another believer, the church itself?
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Do we need to repent before we leave? Does there need to be confession of our sins, not led to a high priest or anything, but do we need to talk to one another before we leave?
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Is there any problems like that? Truly, even in church leaving, we need to submit to the
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Lord. Truly, even in church leaving, we need to love others more than we love ourselves.
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We need to put off the old self and put on the new self, Colossians 3 and 4. And there is just no getting around this.
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Colossians 3, 16 to 17, and I close. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
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Verse 17, and whatever you do in word or deed, do everything in the name of the
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Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. Any closing points, arguments?
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Anybody think that this was a horrible idea to do this topic? I think you continue to be a great example and a blessing to our church,
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Lucille, and we thank you for that example as well. Can charismatic people be saved? I should not have laughed, but can charismatic people be saved?
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They can, so they're still brothers and sisters, and how we leave a church doesn't matter. Last points, anything more?
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Any of the more mature men want to say anything? On that note, let's close in a word of prayer.
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Lord Jesus, we thank you for our salvation, that the church is the bride of Christ, the head indeed, and we get our life from you.
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You are our source, our direction. Without you, we really are nothing. You are our identity, and Lord, it is your resurrection and your ascension we celebrate on this beautiful day.
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Forgive us if we have sinned against you in any manner, and Lord, even as we think about issues surrounding the church and even around one another, help us to deal with these things in love and submission to you.