BBC Elders Q&A

Well, I was going to preach Luke 18 tonight, and then I thought, you know, once in a while we need to have some Q &A and some time for the congregation to ask questions. While we may preach doctrinally and with authority, I never want to come across as someone who is not able to be approached and ask questions, and so this would just give an opportunity for the church to ask questions.

They could be practical about the church, the building, where we plan to be in the next few years. It could be, what does this verse mean? As long as you don't say, what does this verse mean to you? What does this verse mean?

Tell me about this theological position. I had someone ask me today, my son would like to play a certain sport on Sunday. What do you think of that? So it could be very practical or it could be very theological.

If you want to stump the pastors, that would be very easy to do because it doesn't take much to talk about the eternal aspiration of the Spirit of God and those kind of things that I just don't know because I'll answer you with the secret things belong to the Lord, Deuteronomy 29 .29.

So to cover myself, I'm not just going to be asked the questions. I'm going to have the other elders come up too. So elders, why don't you come up and grab yourself a seat. Dave is not feeling that well, so Dave won't be here.

We are an elder-led church, elder-ruled church, and these men are your shepherds, and what we'll do is I'll kind of be the moderator. I'll sit down there as well. So if you have a question, just raise your hand.

I'll repeat the question for the sake of the MP3 and for the sake of the internet, and then these men, we can divvy up the answers. And I just want you to know if you don't have any questions for them, I do.

And I always love Q &As because the Lord just has a neat way of bringing to our attention something that we haven't learned before or what some people are thinking, and so I'll have this come right down here as well.

Charismatic Calvinism and the Sign Gifts

Let's make sure we get the right time, and who would like to start off asking a question? Practical question, a theological question. I will tell you probably off the bat that if it's, thank you, related to amillennialism and premillennialism, we probably won't take the question.

If it's related to, I don't know what else, I mean, I'll take the questions. I don't care. I'm not afraid, but I mean, we don't want to keep... All right. Who has a question? I'll sit down in a moment.

Yes. All right. Good. Thank you, Simon. The question is, what about charismatic Calvinists? We probably should have a definition of what a charismatic is and what a Calvinist is, because it always depends on definitions, and are those two words put together a contradiction in terms?

Steve, do you want to take that one?

You're on to this. Yeah. A Calvinist is someone who, I would define it this way, they believe in the sovereignty of God and salvation. They hold to the acronym TULIP, total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and preservation or perseverance of the saints.

Charismatic would be somebody who believes that the super gifts of the New Testament church are still in practice today, speaking in tongues, maybe healing, words of prophecy, things of that nature. So what I say, it's a contradiction in terms, well, I don't think I would go that far only because we know some of these people, like John Piper, not that I know John Piper, but we watch their ministries, and from time to time, I mean, there are some issues, I think, because ultimately, if you say, for example, as a Calvinist, I hold firmly to the word of God, I believe the Bible, and I believe that God has revealed exactly how he saves people, and then as a charismatic, I believe that God's still speaking today, and God can sort of modify and move in different ways, well, then am I really a Calvinist?

So I mean, I think ultimately, there can be problems with that. I think it's difficult to be consistent. So I mean, well, I wouldn't go so far as to call it necessarily a contradiction. I find it troubling.

Do you want to add something, Louis, or Pradeep?

Sure. Why not? If you ever ask that of Louis, I mean, I just have to pick a topic, I'll say, Mark Stein, America Alone. Did you read the book? Yes, I did. Okay, see? I mean, it was just unbelievable.

As unaccustomed as I am to public speaking, no. Again, Calvinist by their very nature, we do. We tend to take the word of God as our first authority and as our final authority. And so we go by what is written down, what has God written to us, had his servants over the centuries write down so that we could read what he has to say on any given topic.

We use that as our authority. Charismatics, and this, again, we're speaking very broadly here. Charismatics tend to use their emotional experiences as their final authority, or to some extent use that as their authority.

And so that is somewhat of a contradiction in terms. Not that your experiences do not underpin what the scripture teaches us. There was a whole group of people that called themselves the Calvinistic Methodists in Wales.

And yeah, you can read about those some. And again, they were firm on the scripture, but their basic deal was, you know, if you tell me you're a Christian, tell me what there is in your life, experientially, that confirms that you're a Christian.

I want to see that in your life. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that approach. It's a question of perspective. And so I would go along with Steve and say that you can't just brush it off as a contradiction in terms, but there are contradictions in that statement that you would look for.

I think if we look at the issues of Calvinism and Charismatics, Calvinism tends to be a system that talks about the doctrine of salvation or soteriology. And the Charismatics, as they talk about what should be in a church and what shouldn't be in a church, is more an ecclesiological issue.

And so can salvation and church doctrine be put together? In fact, the answer is, even though in church history we don't have Charismatic Calvinists, but we have them now with Piper and Mahaney and Wayne Grudem, some good men.

They're certainly not the Benny Hinn loons of the left or anything like that. And so, can I say that? Is that okay to say? You just did, sir. Okay. Sometimes I come on Sunday mornings just to hear what I might say when I'm preaching.

And so, you have someone with a high view of God. I mean, we say the word Calvinism here because it's been asked, but from the pulpit you won't hear us say the word very often because it brings up all kinds of thoughts.

And we just basically believe that God is sovereign not only on what color your skin is, when you were born, who your parents were, the weather, but also over your soul. And do you go to heaven or don't you?

God is sovereign over that. And Charismatics would believe not just in the regular gifts like we would believe, the serving gifts and the speaking gifts, but they also think of sign gifts as well. If you have your Bibles, I want to just take you to three quick passages.

Whenever I get asked about Charismatic issues, these are the three passages in my mind that I just quickly go to to help me as I think about, are these gifts for today? Certainly, I believe that some of these Charismatic Calvinists are our brothers and we go to conferences together and they're Christian people, but I think they misunderstand these verses.

Ephesians chapter 2 verse 20, as chapter 2 is talking about the church bringing the Jews and Gentiles together, he talks about this household of God in verse 19. And it says in verse 20, having been built, look at those tenses of the verbs there, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself emphatically being the cornerstone.

And the church is being built, started to be built in the first century with Jesus on earth. He begins to build the church and the foundation of the church would be the apostles and the prophets. Now, we're 2 ,000 years removed from the foundation and so we don't have to go back to the foundation any longer.

And what would an apostle do that would be extraordinary? So, the second verses that I like to go to are found in 2 Corinthians chapter 12. So, so far the church is being built by Christ with the foundation being the apostles.

And the apostles were very unique individuals, gifted by God. And you can always find apostles in the scriptures when they were doing things like this. 2 Corinthians 12, 12. The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance by signs and wonders and miracles.

And these apostles would do that. So, you've got the apostles foundational level at the church. We're beyond that. And the last set that I would go to would be Hebrews chapter 2. And again, I don't have time to give you an exegetical background for each of these verses.

But in my mind, I just look at these set of verses to help me with the issue of charismatic gifts. Hebrews chapter 2, verses 3 and 4. You'll find it's very interesting here with past tense discussion of the sign gifts.

The sign gifts pointing to the word. And the word is now incarnated as it were. And the canon is coming together. And so, the sign gifts die out as the canon grows and comes to completion. It says in Hebrews chapter 2, verse 3.

How should we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard. How is the word confirmed by the spirit of God? How do you know it's really the word of God before the Bible is written?

Verse 4 is the answer. You see the comma at the end of verse 3. How is it confirmed? God also testifying with them by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to his own will.

And so, when I think of the charismatic issues, I think about the foundational part of the church needing those sign gifts. Because who's right? Steve says one thing, I say another. But I can back up what I say with these sign gifts and Steve can't.

And so, God confirms the messenger and the message by these sign gifts. Like he did with Moses and Joshua. Like he did with Elijah and Elisha. And so, for charismatics to like the doctrines of grace and have a high view of God, I'm very glad for that.

And I think over time, I think they'll abandon the sign gifts because to me a more miraculous thing today is God's providential working as the king of the universe. And so, I'm glad for them. The movement's called Sovereign Grace.

We sing Sovereign Grace songs here. But we don't sing Sovereign Grace songs about I'm an apostle. I mean, can you imagine if I was an apostle? I'll never forget Mark Dever calling C .J. Mahaney an apostle.

They were trying to figure out a doctrinal question in a Q &A session like this. And Dever said, I don't know the answer to that question. But we have an apostle sitting right here. He should have the answer.

So, we believe that sign gifts existed. But they were there to point to something. And that pointing was this is truly a word from God. And since we have the word now, we don't need any more pointing.

So, okay, good question. Yes, Bernard?

I think that they would say, and I've heard this before, that there's no verse that says the gifts have stopped. Sorry. Or that the feedback has stopped. Yeah, they just say, where's the verse that says they stopped?

So, you know, then you get into a, it's a rather lengthy argument either way.

And there would be 1 Corinthians 13, verse 10. And what does that perfect or mature word mean there? Yes, Ron? Okay. I'd like to get some counsel, and I have a friend. Now that you have everyone's attention.

Marriage, Leadership, and an Unbelieving Spouse

Good. Well, I think maybe Pradeep should get this question, don't you? Oh, yes, I better repeat the question. If a man has a woman that's less than a Proverbs 31 woman, who in fact may be not even saved, how should that husband love that wife that he is united to for the rest of his life?

So the question here has to do with the role of a husband in a marriage, a Christian husband. And we need to look to the scriptures to see what the Bible tells us as advice for a husband who is in a situation where he's married with a woman who possibly is not a Christian.

That seems to be the direction we're going. And as a leader of a head of the family, it's his responsibility to do what he can to spiritually nurture the family. And we know just looking at the extreme case of, okay, I'm in a very difficult spot.

I'm not able to progress, do the kind of things that as a Christian man and as a Christian husband and as a Christian father I would like to do because of the situation. You want to look and see what not to do first, which is you are in a situation of a marriage.

You are the Christian husband. So you do need to keep the marriage. You are not supposed to leave the marriage. You need to do what you can to keep the marriage going. And I think as a husband you have a responsibility for your wife.

And you need to work with your wife, the spouse, to determine whether that person is a believer or not. If not, do your best to share the gospel in a loving way, in a way that would honor Christ. Because I think the hardest part in sharing gospel is with persons we are most intimate with because they know all our flaws.

We know all their flaws. We know where they are going to close the doors. But we need to work towards sharing the gospel with this person, with our words, and with our life. And in terms of what this person can be effective in the ministry or just generally in life, yes, it is a difficult circumstance when you have a spouse who is unbelieving and not just that, but also antagonistic to everything that you do.

It is a challenge to be able to do even the normal things in life, much less the things in ministry. And as with every other husband, you have a responsibility first to the family. So you need to devote your energy and your attention towards the spouse and the family as a whole.

And be used of God as much as you can outside of this. Was that the question, Ron? Did I answer that?

Well, I think one of the things that I didn't mention last week, Ron, and we would all affirm this here at the church, that if a husband has a high-maintenance wife and he is handicapped in ministry, then it is his responsibility and duty to love that wife and to have her mature.

And so as he leads and as he guides and directs the family as they grow together closer to Christ and therefore the wife grows more, she will be able to handle more ministry. And so the husband just can't flippantly say, like I probably said last week from the pulpit, you just have a high-maintenance wife and you can only go as far as your wife will take you.

That's a true statement, but it's not all the truth. Because the rest of the truth is the ministry can only go as far as the husband will lead that family. And so that is very critical. You can't look at the wife to see the barometer of the family.

You need to look at the husband and his leadership. And I can pretty much tell about these men if I look at their wives and see their countenance, see their service, see their joy, see their ministry, and it will be a reflection upon God's working through their husbands and through these men.

So if you want to know about the man, you can go to the wife. I would say to your friend, if this is your friend, that he may have ideas of ministry. He might want to be a pastor or an elder or a seminary student.

He may have all kinds of gifts, but in the sovereign hand of God, the number one priority for that man now is his wife. And he will have to pour his life out for her. And at eternity's door, when God says, you know, this is the mission field I gave you, is this unsaved wife.

And the person who stands before God will say, you know, it was worth it. God, thank you for giving me that privilege to serve this person. All right, the question for the tape is, what if the wife then kicks the person out, kicks the husband out, changes the locks and all that?

My first response before I let Lewis take a whack at it is, doesn't sin muddy things? Sin just so destroys and confuses and makes just life chaotic. And it's very, very difficult in divorce and remarriage and other things like that.

How do you just unscrew the, you know, inscrutable? Lewis, what would you tell a husband like that?

Well, as I think we've all agreed, this is a very thorny issue and one that really applies in our day because it seems to happen a lot. But I would go back essentially to what we've already said. Some of you have heard me say here that the essence of leadership, we've said it is the husband's responsibility to lead the family.

And what so often pops into someone's mind when you say that, well, I get to tell people what to do, but that's not the essence of leadership. The essence of leadership can be defined as consciously taking responsibility for the welfare of those you're leading.

And you can still apply that principle even if you have been thrown out of the house. As long as you are still the provider for that household, you can take responsibility for the welfare of that wife, for the welfare of those children.

It may be difficult. She may resist you doing that. But to the very best of your ability and with prayer and much prayer that goes with it, you try to continue to fulfill that responsibility because as things go on, what we would pray for is that this will affect the wife.

You remember the story that I think it was Mike said a couple of Sundays ago where the advice to the woman was, well, you really be nice to your husband, and then when he's really set, man, you zap it to him.

And a few months later, no, she wouldn't even think about leaving the fellow. Well, you pray for some sort of a thing like that to happen. And from a practical standpoint, also look at your life. If she physically threw you out of the house, you might want to do a little soul searching to figure out what is it.

Look at your own life because every one of these disputes has two sides to it. And see where did you fit into this dispute. And it may be, you know, and Paul addresses this, you know, it may be that she's determined to leave and that's just the way it is and that's what's going to happen.

And like Pastor Mike just said, sin muddies things and it gets in the way. And it really messes your life up. And, you know, once the eggs are scrambled, you can't unscramble them. But as long as you can, within whatever ability you have and to whatever level you have, you continue to take responsibility for the welfare of that family as long as it's your family.

Even if she won't let you in the door, it's still your family. And so you keep applying that principle to the very best of your ability to whatever level you're permitted to do so. And I'm not trying to trivialize this, nor am I trying to make it a be warm, be filled type thing because it is a very, very hard road.

It's not easy. And you have no guarantee it's going to turn out well. But, you know, you do as long as the Lord permits you to do. You keep going down that road.

If I can just ratchet up what Louis was saying a little bit, I would say, and I say this to men whenever I talk to them, what happens in the house, and this is something women love to hear, is the man's fault.

That's pretty easy, isn't it? In other words, on judgment day, you don't get to stand up there and say it was the woman you gave me. This is, you know, and to get even further back, there was something about you way back when that she really liked.

What did you do to mess that up? And, you know, as much as you can, I mean, I think guys have habits of, you know, just devoting themselves to one thing or two things or whatever, and the family, the wife, everything else gets left behind, and it's like, come on, honey, catch up, and sometimes the wife isn't going to catch up.

She's not with you, and, you know, it gets back to what Louis was saying in terms of, you know, what is leadership? Well, leadership isn't catch up to me. It's making sure everybody's on the same page, and, you know, in this kind of situation, no effort should be spared.

Everything from your life should be stripped and gone until you have exhausted yourself thinking of ways to make things right with your spouse. That's, I mean, like what Mike was saying. That is your function.

That is your mission field. That is all that you are about is how do I restore my marriage? How do I get her to want me back? How do I even get her to talk to me? And, you know, overtime, my hobbies, whatever it is that I'm doing, all those things have to go.

Everything has to go. You know, I can go to church on Sunday morning, and then the rest of it has to be how do I get her back? What do I have to do to make this right? How am I going to best please God by what I'm doing and how I'm thinking and what I'm saying to other people?

Am I grumbling about my wife? Am I, you know, all these kind of things. Everything has to go, and you have to take, ultimately, as a man, you have to take responsibility for what happens in your house.

I mean, that's what it says when we're talking about qualifications for elders. You must run this household well. And it doesn't give any kind of break for, well, yeah, but I have a high-maintenance wife or I have this or I have that.

It's your job, and you have to figure it out.

Just an extra comment. If you have an unbelieving spouse and you come to church, when you get home, just have your spouse think, man, when my spouse goes to church, she or he might be kind of down or crabby or this or that, but after they come back, they are joy-filled, happy, excited, willing to serve.

And I think there's ways to win spouses. Steve, when you said it's always the husband's fault, so if the wife sins, that's the husband's fault or is it the husband's responsibility or would there be a difference?

Well, there is a difference. Thank you for bringing that up.

It's her fault. She did what she did. But he's responsible. He's accountable for everything that goes on inside of his house. That's what I thought you meant.

That's exactly what I meant. Yeah, go back to the Garden of Eden. Eve sinned first. We all know that. And then Adam sinned after her. But when God comes to call Adam to account, he doesn't want to talk to Eve.

Why? Because Adam's in charge. And, you know, this goes all the way through life. In the military, you know, if something's gone wrong in the unit, and I don't want to talk to PFC Dokes that actually did whatever it was that happened.

No, no, I want to see the commander because it's his responsibility. So that's when God's out there. Adam, you know, what's going on, Adam? And like Steve said, you can't use the, well, it's the woman that you gave me, God, defense.

That doesn't work. That doesn't fly. The man's the one in charge. And that's what it means to be in charge is to take the responsibility as yours.

Well, and think about this. Adam didn't really get to pick a spouse. You all did, so.

Well, most. All right. Other questions? Yes. Sixto. Okay. Let me just repeat the questions. The first, the comment in terms of the sermon, and it's easy to preach a good sermon when you just preach from the text.

I mean, I could have just got up and read James, and it's so powerful. Matter of fact, sometime this week, just stand up in front of a mirror with your Bible and read James out loud to yourself. It is an amazing passage of 52 imperatives and 104 verses, and it just preaches.

And just stand up and read it, and it's the power of the spoken word. And I don't mean in some kind of word faith deal either. Regarding the humanity of Christ, in the Garden of Gethsemane, when Jesus was sorrowful, the question is, how would we describe that sorrow?

Would it be depression? Would it be anxiety? Would we put some kind of DSM, psychological paradigm up against that? Pradeep, you want to take a shot at that? Not the DSM thing, but just Christ at the Garden of Gethsemane, and then others can chime in.

So when we think of Jesus Christ, from the scriptures, it is very clear that he was fully God, John 1 .1 on John 1 .1, and he was fully man. He went through all the trials and circumstances and temptations that we as humans go through, and he endured them.

Now when we look at his response to trials, whether it is right at the beginning when he went for 40 days in the desert, or right at the very end in the Garden of Gethsemane, as a fully human being, he did experience the trial in its fullness, and in many cases, maybe even more so than any of us can go through, because without having sinned, he experienced the full weight of those trials on himself.

And I think it is good for us to compare those two different types of trials, the first one being the physical starvation that his body went through. And we all would agree that as a human being, the responses that his body would have given would be very similar to what was ours.

And now when we look at the last, in the Garden, the trial is a very difficult one. We know that the trial that he has here is primarily one of taking the sin upon himself and of separation by bearing the wrath of God on himself.

And this is a very difficult trial. Now what was his response to the trial? I think that is the question that we want to answer. We know that Christ did not sin right from his birth till the very moment he was crucified and he died on the cross.

So whatever his response was, that could not be tainted, I believe, with sin. So what kind of anguish did he experience? Is that depression? Is that a torment of the spirit and of the mind in willing himself to obey the Father?

I believe it would have been a torment. I don't know if you were trying to get the distinction between the types of responses as being depression or anguish. And I would have called it anguish, although I do not know the shades that is being implied here as to where it crosses into sin.

Is that your question, Sister? Yes.

Okay, good question. Let me repeat it. Why don't we turn, Congregation, to Luke 22 and take a look at the text. When anybody ever asks you a question, the best thing to do is go to the text because it often answers our questions.

The follow-up question was, with Strobel, does Jesus kind of understand our pain and sorrow and depression as we feel anguish, etc.? Let me just read it. It is one of the most amazing chapters in the Scripture.

We will just focus in on 39 -46. Luke 22, and Jesus came out and proceeded as was His custom to the Mount of Olives. And the disciples also followed Him. When He arrived at the place, He said to them, Pray that you may not enter into temptation.

And He withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and began to pray, saying, Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from Me, yet not My will but Yours be done. By the way, what was that cup?

Here God, the Son, knows exactly the degree of the holy nature of God. And He knows about sin, not experientially in His own body, but He's been on earth and He knows because He's omniscient. And He will realize the awesome fury that God the Father will unleash upon sin, and in this particular case, on the sin-bearer.

And so He knows. Can you imagine if you're standing on death row and you think, you know, I'm going to hell in a few moments, what would your response be? And here Jesus isn't going to go to hell, but it's as if the gates of hell would be opened, the torments that the denizens in hell would deserve, and Jesus is going to have to pay that price.

He will be punished. And so He knows what's coming, and so much so, look at verse 43, these ministering spirits. Now an angel from heaven appeared to Him, strengthening Him. Isn't that amazing? Harkening back to Luke 4 and Matthew 4, where the angels ministered to Jesus after the temptation.

And being in agony, He was praying very fervently, and His sweat became like, it doesn't say they were, but it says His sweat became like drops of blood falling from the ground. When He rose from prayer, He came to the disciples and found them sleeping with sorrow.

So as I look at Christ here, I see, at least in Luke 22's account, He's saying, you know, remove this cup, but I will submit to you. Verse 44, it doesn't say anything about depression or anguish, although we know anguish in Isaiah 53.

Here it says He was in agony, and He was sweating, and He found the disciples in sorrow. I would say that is a very human response, and I would say that depression is a consequence of sin. And so I don't think this is Jesus being depressed.

I think this is Jesus understanding the ramifications of God the Father's holy wrath upon sin that He will have to take. And for moments on the cross, from noon to three, He will not be calling His Father, Father.

He will be saying, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? He has been in complete communion with the Father. He will no longer have communion, and His Father will turn His back on Him as He pours out the wrath of God.

And so when I think of depression, I don't need to have Jesus feel depressed so that Hebrews 4 would be true, that He is close to me, and He is a high priest who can sympathize with my weaknesses. Because generally He has sympathized, but He has not sympathized with our sinful responses.

He has sympathized with our temptations and trials, but He doesn't really have true sympathy to our sinful responses because that is more chastening. Don't do it that way. So when Strobel says, and he did this before with some other psychology in the book The Case for Christ, with David and manic depressive and some things like that, either Strobel did it or somebody else.

And so I would say Jesus in His humanity can identify with us, as Hebrews 4 says, but I don't think this has anything to do with depression. I think it has to do with knowing full well, with the omniscience of the Son, how bad the wrath of God is going to be.

And in His humanness, He cries out like any human would be. If you stand on the precipice of hell and look over there, you are like, this is going to be bad. And He recoils, as it were, with anguish, but with determination to do His Father's will.

So I would throw out all the depression talk. When we're depressed, there are ways that we can work through those things. And Psalm 32 and Psalm 34, I believe, would be the ones where I would take us for depression responses.

Yes. Okay, that's a good question. Let's give this one to Louis. Louis, why did Jesus cry in John 11 when Lazarus died, knowing that, in fact, He was going to raise Him soon?

This is a very interesting passage, particularly in light of what Jesus is going to exhibit His divinity, but this also exhibits His humanity. We sometimes lose track of the fact that Jesus was 100 percent a human being.

And in His humanity, He did. He felt hunger. He felt tired. And fear is also one of the things that God has built into us for our protection. Why do we know not to step off the precipice? Well, our fears, you know.

But anyway, back to the passage in John. Here comes Jesus. And it's very significant that Jesus takes the time to mourn with His friends. Now, Mary and Martha and Lazarus are among the people that He's closest to on earth, outside of His immediate disciples.

You know, these three people are very important people to Him. And the text says that Jesus is troubled and that, if you will, He's feeling anger at the feelings that have been engendered in Mary and Martha because of the death.

Because don't forget, death is an enemy. Death is the result of sin. Death is not part of life, you know. Death is not something to be embraced. It's not something that we're supposed to celebrate. It's part of sin's impact on earth.

And this is troubling Jesus. And you're right. Jesus knows what He's going to do. And if it was someone, if it was me, I would have just said, Mary, Martha, don't worry. Just wait till you see what I'm going to do, you know.