Burying Fathers

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio, ministry.

Remembering a Father and Trusting God With What We Cannot Know

Mike Abendroth. It is Tuesday, and Steve Cooley and Tony Miano are here.

Well, it's great to see you, Mike. Oh, it's great to see you, too.

Now, tell me a little bit, since I haven't listened to the shows, I think they've played already, but since I haven't heard them now, real-time, no-code time, how'd that all work out?

I think it worked just fine. Tony was gregarious, you know. You actually get a little, when you listen to it, you'll get a little more insight, not only into our relationship, but, you know, what Tony's really like.

So, we had a lot of fun.

I was thinking of him the other day when I was researching Mark Cahill, and Tony wrote an article about that issue and Cahill's rabid anti-Calvinism and how can you be a Christian if you're a Calvinist, et cetera.

Well, it's a good question. Is Jesus coming back for Calvinists? Film at 11. Jesus is against all Calvinists.

Because he was graceful, and he wanted everyone to be saved. Okay.

Steve, we get emailers sometimes, and most of the time, don't you think they're generous.

And gracious and kind? I think they're very gracious and kind and loving and warm and thrifty and clean and brave and reverent.

Thrifty. Yeah, for the most part, I think they are thrifty. That's why we were off V &E for, I think, three months. Donate buttons, maybe we should put one of those back on.

Well, I like the one where it's everywhere on the page. That's the one.

Wherever your mouse goes, it's a donate button. Yes, it is that time of year. Funds are running low, and you know we're a ministry. We need to be in the black. 1 -800-BEGATHON. But here's a real question, and it's going to hit closely to home for both you and me, even though we've got about 25 years difference between our experiences.

Still the same experience. Amanda writes, and it's something Amanda at Yahoo, but I won't tell you her last name. Good. I recently began listening to your show and enjoy it immensely. On one of your podcasts, you mentioned how you weren't sure of where your father was spiritually when he passed away.

I know someone who is struggling with this issue and is finding it very difficult, and I'm hoping you could share more of your thoughts on the subject. Thank you very much, Amanda. Very important subject, and Steve, why don't you give your—what happened with you and your father, and I'll say the same thing, then we can kind of walk through this a little bit.

Well, you know, first of all, I just want to say that we have to always trust that the Lord will do what's right, and I think that really ultimately is the key. But with my own dad, as I mentioned with Tony, he went up there because I was here when I found out that he was—his illness, I'd known he was sick, but it looked like his illness had taken a turn for the worse.

So I called Tony, and Tony drove up there and gave him the gospel, and then I was able to get out there and see him and saw him every day and, you know, did what I could, certainly preach the gospel to him a few times, and I remember reading Psalm 23 with him and everything else.

And then I get home, and he was in a rehab facility, and this is just a few days before he died. And a group called me from there, and they were with my dad, and they'd gone to visit and evangelize people in this rest home that he was in, and so they found out I was a pastor, they wanted to talk to me.

So I said, well, it's great that you guys called, and I just gave the gospel again while I was talking to them on the phone, so Dad heard it again, and, you know, there seemed to be certainly a softening towards the gospel with my dad, you know, did I get a profession of faith?

No. But I know the Lord was gracious to let him hear the truth multiple times toward the end of his life. And, you know, I mean, I have some hope, you know, because I know he clearly heard the gospel.

And... And that's how people are saved, by hearing the gospel. That's exactly right.

And so, do I know? I don't ultimately know, and, you know, I would say this, and then I'll let you get in on this. I would say this, that even in the best possible circumstances, we never really know, and it's time and trials, as a pastor I know likes, or I like, knows, well, whatever, he says a lot.

Anyway, that is a good measurement, and, you know, with the deathbed type of situation, we definitely don't know, but we can have hope, and that's, I think, the key.

Steve, when I try to solve pastoral problems, or theological problems, I guess even mechanical problems too, I go with what I know first. And so, that sets the stage, because I want to be reminded of what the Scriptures teach me clearly.

They're outside of me, they're not subjective, they're objective truth statements about God and the way he deals with sinful people. Because I don't want to get caught up into, I have to change my theology to make sure the bar of salvation is lower to make sure my dad's in.

So, I want to guard against that, because even though it would hurt me to say it, and emotionally, I would be distraught if I, you know, had a loved one who said on their deathbed, I hate Jesus, and then died one second later, I still can't change my theology to somehow make myself feel better.

No, that would be wrong, and sadly, I think many people do fall into that, you know, they see people who make a profession of faith young in their lives, and no matter what they do after that, they just want to believe that they're saved.

Steve, what you're talking about is, with the non-Lordship, anti-Lordship people, my guess is that many understand the Scriptures, but because of a loved one, not on the deathbed per se, but like you said, a childhood statement of a declaration that I'm going to follow Christ, and then they change their theology, because who wants to think about hell with a loved one?

Nobody. Yeah. So, with my father, it was 1989, he died in January, and I was a pagan at the time. I was trying to go to church and understand why God would allow a man to have cancer at 54 years old, and then 55, and so I had a lot of questions about that.

But I don't know what happened with my dad on his deathbed, beside the fact that there was a pastor, it was a Lutheran pastor at a fairly liberal church, that wanted to go give him communion, and so my dad took that, and so in my mind, Steve, again, I'm not looking for any signs, I'm not looking for, I know for sure now, but to me, I was glad that he didn't refuse those, right, that he didn't say, I don't want anything to do with that Jesus, and he gave me this cancer, and speaking negatively.

I was glad my father said, when the pastor said, this is the body of Christ broken for you, this is the blood of Christ shed for you, do this in remembrance of me, and then my father took those things.

So I'm happy for that, but I can't know for sure. Steve, what I'd like to ask you, and again, this is, I know, still tender for you, tell our listeners, and Amanda in particular, why it's okay not to know, why you can have joy in not knowing.

You could still live your Christian life to the fullest, resting on who God is, even when you don't know.

Well, I mean, I'm going to sound somewhat dispassionate here for a moment, because to a certain, I can't change it, whatever, wherever my dad is, me fretting about it, and I can't discern it, I can't sort it out, I can't know the mind of God, and so I ultimately have to yield, I mean, it's just like many issues in life.

There isn't a single person, let me just first say this, there isn't a single person that I come into contact with where I think, I hope that person never believes, for anyone. And so how much more, you know, with your dad and everything else, but ultimately, I don't know, I don't know who's elect, I don't know who believes, I don't know any of these things, because I'm not God.

And I think one of the keys to the Christian life is getting to the point where we're okay. I mean, we say we're okay, but we're really okay with not being God, and not knowing everything that God knows.

And having, I guess, you know, when you start bragging about your humility, you're in trouble. But having... No comment. But having the capacity, I wouldn't even say humility, having the capacity to just yield to it, and I definitely would want to know if I could know that he was in heaven, but I would never want to know he was in hell.

I would never want to know that. That would fret me. I would be, you know, having the hope that he's in heaven is a, it's a great encouragement to me, because, again, it testifies to what I think of the power of God, and the power of the Word, and his ability to use the Word in the lives of people, regardless of what they may have said, you know, years ago, or whatever, it doesn't matter.

Steve, as we think about this pastorally on No Compromise Radio, I think to myself, isn't it good of the Lord that we don't know? I mean, as much as I'd want to know, I only want to know if the answer is he's in heaven.

Yes, yes. And so, it's the goodness of God that he, as the great parent, as a great father, the most, the best father anybody could have, the father of lights, he knows what his children can handle. He knows what they can with, you know, withstand emotionally, psychologically, theologically, you know, and every other ology.

And so, I'm glad I don't know, because as Spurgeon said, when you get to heaven, there'll be three great surprises. Some people you thought who would be there aren't. Some people who you thought weren't going to be there are.

And then, surprises of all surprises, even though we were such great sinners, we were there because of the merits of another Christ Jesus. Amen.

And I don't want to pull too much out of the parable, I think, of the rich man and Lazarus, but here's what I would say. You can't read that account there, that story, that parable, and think, I'm so glad the rich man is suffering.

I mean, nobody reads that and goes, I'm glad. Because ultimately, the idea of hell would not bring, should not bring joy to anyone. You know, we should not think, and again, if we think of ourselves rightly, think of what we deserved, think about the grace of God in our lives, that he caused us to be born again, to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and his life, death, and resurrection, then we don't think, well, you know what, I did, but then I kind of deserved it.

And other people, well, they deserve less.

Steve, Romans 4 says, verse 4, now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due, verse 5, but to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

And so, the power of God's gospel, because the power of Christ's death, when he died on the cross and said, it is finished, is great enough to save people on their deathbeds. They aren't even baptized, they don't evangelize, they might only blink their eyes.

If you believe me, dad, blink your eyes one time.

But when it says justifies the ungodly, that means the ones who almost were godly.

Comfort, Gospel Witness, and Funeral Ministry

Steve, as we talk about parents who have died and how do we counsel folks, don't you think it's even the goodness of God that we would have to go through this as well, so we can talk to other people like Amanda?

This happens a lot, in other words. How do we say God works everything out for good for this? Well, even the way you minister to other people and give comfort to those folks, because God has comforted us.

You know, that's one of the great why questions, you know, why is the Lord allowing this in my life? And, you know, and I, of course, he's bringing into your life, well, why? Because, well, ultimately, we don't know exactly, but one thing we know for sure, if the Lord has brought something into your life, it is for your good.

Romans 8, 28 is right 100 of the time. So what else can we discern from that? Well, it may be so that you can counsel somebody else through exactly the same situation or a similar situation, or that you might just even have more compassion, more empathy for other people.

All these things are good and they are for your good. You know, so what about when your father dies, when my father died? Well, one of the things that you do is you instantly identify with anyone who is losing their father.

I mean, it is, it's rough. In fact, I was just talking to somebody yesterday and I just said, you know what, here's what this young man does not understand, that someday the father that he mocks or spurns now, he's going to beg for the opportunity to talk to him again.

And that won't be there. And there's nothing, you know, there's 7 billion people in the world and only one of them is your dad.

That's so true. There are opportunities, Steve, for theological discussion. And then there are real practical times like this where the two have to meet theology and methodology. Still thinking now theologically, in heaven, do you think we'll know where people are?

And if so, how will we process all that?

Well, here's what I do know, that in heaven, there is no sin. There are no tears. So do I know, do I think that we'll have a sense of loss? No. How do I know that? Well, because if we did, then we'd be upset.

We'd be crying and there are no tears. And there's no sin there. And to think wrongly, to think somehow that, gee, I don't know if God did the right thing here or there, that doesn't exist either. So how does it work exactly?

Well, I just don't think we'll be thinking about that.

And if we do know it, we would know it through the mind of Christ, and we would say, yes, that's true, and they spurned the sun and they rebelled against God and natural revelation and special revelation.

We'd get all that. What do we do, Steve, when we're talking to folks who have loved ones and they are dying and they come to you and say, pastor, would you mind coming to talk to my family member who's dying?

What do you say and how do you mentor people through that?

Well, I mean, and it's not like I wouldn't do that because I would, but I, you know, I think many times I think family members have a better kind of entree.

That's exactly what I was hoping you'd say.

Well, I mean, who better? I mean, let's just say that I was unsaved and I'm on my deathbed, you know, out of everybody in the world, who am I like instantly going to listen to? Well, you know, my wife, my kids, my grandkids, and, you know, the more dear they are to me, the more I'm going to, they can tell me anything.

Now, if a pastor comes in and I'm kind of, you know, opposed to the gospel anyway, well, I might just shut down, but, and I might tell them to get out of my room, but there's no way, you know, I mean, anybody, I don't care who you are, at the end of your life, when you look around that room, if you're on your deathbed, who do you want there?

You want your family there. And there's, you know, well, get out of here. If you're going to come at me with that gut, well, okay, then that person's really got a hard heart if they won't listen to their grandson, granddaughter, son, or daughter.

That's really hard hearted.

Steve, when we talk to people like that at the church and they have a desire for their family member to be saved, let's say it's their father, their father's in the hospital, and we encourage them, you know, you know, the good news, you could go do it.

Your dad would listen to you. Doesn't it feel good afterwards? And I'm using that word on purpose. Doesn't it feel good that you got to preach the gospel to your dad, that Tony, as a friend, what a dear friend, that's a real friend.

I'm going to go preach the gospel to your father. The good feelings of friendship, the good feelings of, you know, I did it even though it was hard. Even those things are the sweet aroma of God's grace in our life, isn't it?

Yes.

And you know what I would say? And I mean, you know, I watched this stupid video the other day of this dad, you know, jumping around the room after Auburn ran that touchdown back, you know, the missed field goal, 109 yards.

And that was exciting. Let me tell you something. There, you can't even compare that sort of temporary feeling to, I can't call it a permanent feeling, but it sure is a long lasting feeling of joy that goes with knowing that you presented life giving truth to somebody that you love.

I mean, that just, there's nothing better than that.

Steve, when we look to those in our life, when those that we respect, the ones that we respect are the ones that even though they had a tear in their eye and their voice was shaky, and they just were bawling as they talked to their father or their mother on their deathbed, there's forgiveness found in Christ Jesus.

Aren't those the ones that we respect and look up to? And then all of a sudden, now we're the patriarch because our father's dying. And so now we have to be the ones who, like 1 Corinthians 16, act like men.

It's the best. You know, recently somebody at the church lost his father and said, you know, he went to the funeral and he, I think he put it this way, that he did his best to kind of give the gospel at the funeral.

And I'm going, I mean, that was manly. It's hard to do that and to just kind of stand up there, even knowing that not everybody who's going to hear it is going to be happy or whatever, you know, to just do that.

It's the good thing. It's the right thing to do, you know what I mean? And that's an important point. You know, you go to a funeral, well, you don't want to offend people and you want to honor the dead person's wishes or whatever.

Well, keep this in mind. You're ministering to the living. You know, you're there for them. And so whatever the dead person may or may not want, I hate to say it's irrelevant, but it's really irrelevant.

I know. The other thing that happens in pastoral ministry, and it just happened a while ago, a week ago, Steve, someone came to me and said, my grandmother died. I loved her. And would you be willing to speak at the funeral, Pastor Mike?

And I said, I am willing to speak at the funeral. Thank you for that opportunity. And then I asked them this question. I said, are you considered the religious one of the family? Yes. And I said, well, I think you should speak and I'll help you in what to say and how to say it.

But I'm just a guy from, you know, they don't know who I am. And the church has already probably set up another speaker or the funeral home or the family of the deceased. And there could be a tug of war.

Is it the Methodist, Episcopalian, Roman Catholic, Mormon speaker? But you are the loved one. And you know enough about who Jesus is to stand up with a tear in your eye and then talk about your grandmother.

And so we've got a few minutes left, Steve. Let's talk about how we coach and mentor and disciple young men, especially to stand up and give a eulogy. And how do you give a eulogy and speak well of the person, yet not preach them into heaven, especially if there's no fruit and no even profession of saving faith?

Well, here's what I did at my dad's funeral. And, you know, I think it's a decent example of what I try to do because it was a military funeral. And so they gave me 10 minutes total. I'm the only speaker, which is good because then there's no conflicting kind of ideas.

But I'm doing the eulogy. I'm doing the message. It's all of it. And it's got to be done in 10 minutes, I think I had. So, you know, and so you really practice it and you pare things down and you read it over and over again.

And you want to make sure that you're down to it. But what I did was I talked about my dad and I just talked about how much I loved him, you know, what he was really like to me. And then I said, I talked about the last time I was with him and how we read Psalm 23.

And my dad, you know, was kind of being smart alecky and sort of trying to stay a line ahead of me and stuff like that. And then I talked about that shepherd and, you know, what it's like to know him.

And I just went into the gospel from there. And I told everybody there, you know, mostly unbelievers that they needed to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. And so, you know, to cover all that in 10 or it might have been 12 minutes is a lot.

But if you if you work at it, you can do it.

Steve, I'm glad you brought that up, because when you do have the theological courage given by the Spirit of God to stand by your father's bedside or your mom's bedside or your wife's and you preach the gospel to him or her, I love to then go to the funeral and say, let me just tell you about the last conversation I had with my dad.

And this is what it was. And boy, do people really listen to that. That is an excellent way. That's not the only reason you preach the gospel at your father's bedside. But that really, really helps. And I think you made a good point.

We think about the common grace of God. Here's what my dad meant to me, right? Not every kid has a dad. Not every kid has a dad for that long. And this is God's goodness. That's like George Mueller preaching his wife's service.

The Lord was good to me by giving me a wife. The Lord was good to me by giving me my wife for such a long time. And then you transition from God's goodness into, let me tell you about eternal life. And then what I do and try to teach these young men, and I know Steve does the same thing, to make a break between speaking well of the person and common grace and then talking about the gospel.

Now, if the person believes and has believed for years and Grandma Evie for 62 years, walk with the Lord and you don't have to preach her into heaven because she was like Enoch. She walked with God and then she wasn't.

But if we don't know, you speak well of the loved one, and then you begin to speak well of Christ Jesus. And if people, Steve, put the two and two together, that guy didn't believe what he's talking about.

Well, we just have to let it ride, don't we? Yeah, and I don't think anybody who heard me at my dad's funeral would think that I thought he was in hell because I didn't address it. Nor did I say that he was in heaven, you know, and because it's, again, it's outside of my, I hope as much as I can hope anything, you know, that he believed.

But I'm not after that and it's not important. And I certainly don't want to get into a discussion at that point, right? I mean, here's what's important. Everybody needs to know that I love my dad. Then they need to know the gospel and that's it.

There's nothing in between. And, you know, I mean, certainly I talked about my dad's relationship with other people and what a kind and generous man he was because that's all true. But those things are not connected to the gospel.

And, you know, I didn't say, okay, now I'm done with my dad. Let me move on. But I sort of transitioned because maybe I have a little more training than some people do, you know? And like I said, I did practice because I was nervous about it.

It's hard. And if I didn't know exactly what I was going to say, I wouldn't have been able to do it.

I always end on this verse. I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live even if he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?

835 -3400. The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.