Bow Tie Dialogue: Calvary Chapel (Guest David Guzik)

But even with all the blessings that I've had in ministry, I tell you, you got one thing that I don't have and I've never had, and I don't think

I'll ever have it.

Keith Foskey, I don't have my own theme song.

And I'll tell you what, it's really amazing.

I'm very impressed by what you got with that theme song.

And again, I don't think I'm going to try to imitate it, but I just want you to know I got a lot of respect for that.

Congratulations.

Your Calvinist Podcast is filmed before a live studio audience.

And welcome back to Your Calvinist Podcast.

My name is Keith Foskey, and I am your Calvinist.

And I am super excited to get to my guest today.

We are doing another Bowtie Dialogue.

And if you don't know what a Bowtie Dialogue is, this is something I began several months ago where I invite

leaders or pastors from other denominations into the program.

And we talk just about the things that make their denomination great or make their

movement great and where it came from.

And we talk about all of those things.

And the man that I have on today is someone that I am super excited to talk to.

He's a pastor.

He's also a writer of a wonderful commentary.

And we're going to get to him in just one second.

But before we do that, I want to remind you, as I do with every show, that we are a ministry of Sovereign

Grace Family Church.

So if you are in the Jacksonville area, I want to encourage you to come and visit us at You can find out

about us on our brand new website that we just had redone

at sgfcjacks .org.

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If you want a Bible that is small enough to be carried anywhere, to be hidden anywhere, to be used

as a tool, but also as an heirloom that you can pass down, we want to encourage you to go to tinybibles .com

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Also, if you want to support the show, we always encourage you to do that by going to buymeacoffee .com slash

your Calvinist.

Well, again, I'm welcoming today a man who many of you will probably know just by name

or by face, but even if you don't know his name or his face, you probably know his work.

David Guzik is a pastor and writer, and I'm bringing him on right now.

He is the author of the Enduring Word Commentary.

I got that right, right, David?

It's the Enduring Word.

We do.

That's correct.

And I want to thank you for coming on your Calvinist podcast today.

Keith, thank you so much.

It's a pleasure to join you.

Yes, sir.

And I was just excited to get to talk to you and to have the opportunity to do so in

my audience makes it even better because I personally benefited from your work.

Your commentary is available online.

It's available to anyone who wants to go and find it and use it.

It's not one that you have to be able to afford.

Like a lot of the digital material that's out there right now is behind a paywall.

They can go get the commentary.

What inspired you to do that.

And make it accessible to so many people?

Well, it kind of happened in a roundabout way, Keith.

What I have online is my Bible commentary really is just my teaching notes.

And many years ago, more than 25 years ago, I found out just through some unusual

circumstances that what I prepared for myself as preaching and teaching notes was helpful for other people as

Bible commentary.

And so I never sat down with a plan, I'm going to write a commentary on the whole Bible or any part of the Bible.

But that's how it worked out just with my preaching and teaching ministry through Books of the Bible.

And it first went online more than 25 years ago on the Blue Letter Bible website.

We saw that it was helpful for people.

And then we started our own website, EnduringWord .com.

So right now, it's sort of prominently featured.

It's both on my website, EnduringWord .com, but then also the Blue Letter Bible website.

See, that's where I think I learned about it was on Blue Letter.

Blue Letter Bible is such a useful tool for so many people.

And it's one of, again, it's a free resource.

So a lot of people go there.

And I work with a, every Thursday, I go preach at a place called Set Free.

It's a men's recovery ministry for men who are coming out of addiction and things like that.

And a lot of the guys there who have access to the internet are using things like Blue Letter Bible to be able to do

research.

And your commentary comes up.

It's one of the ones that we've talked about.

So such a blessing to so many people.

And you said you just got back from Italy, right,.

Where your commentary is being translated?

I was just in Italy.

We were there because we finished the translation of my entire New Testament commentary into

Italian.

And so I was doing a couple events and speaking at some churches and meeting with pastors.

We're really happy to promote it because we want people to know about it in these different language groups where we have a very

active work translating the commentary into those.

Languages.

Wonderful.

Wonderful.

So you are, for the Bowtie Dialogue today, we want to talk

about your background and your history, and you are part of the great non

-denominational denomination.

Maybe I'm saying it wrong, but -.

No, that's a fair enough description.

Calvary Chapel is the group that you are associated with, correct?

That's correct.

Yeah.

And when did you come into Calvary Chapel and how long have you been.

Associated with them?

Well, the first Protestant church I ever walked into was a church called Calvary Chapel

Riverside.

And maybe some of your viewers or listeners have seen that movie, The Jesus Revolution.

At the very end of that movie, the older pastor played by Kelsey Grammer, he hands

some keys to the actor who plays the role of Greg Laurie.

And the church that Greg Laurie started just a few years after the end of that movie

was the first Protestant church I ever walked into.

And Greg Laurie, that pastor was the first Protestant preacher I ever heard.

And it really made a deep impression on me.

And the second time that I ever attended that church, I responded to the invitation to put my trust in

Jesus Christ.

And that was as a very young teenager, but it gave me a real pattern, not only for

Christian discipleship, but also for ministry.

That's amazing.

Okay.

So your first pastor was Greg Laurie.

That's correct.

Even though I was really raised the first few years of my Christian life in a very kind of organic thing with a

lot of wonderful home Bible studies among a very active group of young people who just love the Lord.

But that church pattern, that pastoral model was definitely given to me by Greg Laurie.

Nice. Nice.

Now, do you know him personally?

Have y 'all done things together?

We've done a few things together.

I really admire Greg.

He's made a tremendous impression on my life.

And of course, how can I not really respect and admire the man?

He preached the gospel to me and challenged me to put my faith in Christ.

And again, even beyond that provided such a model of

expositional teaching and preaching of God's word that has really had an impact on my life.

And my ministry.

That's interesting because one of the things that I've noticed about Calvary Chapel

preaching is it tends to be verse by verse.

Is that model followed fairly well?

That's a very strong value in sort of our Calvary Chapel family is that the

fundamental preaching and teaching ministry of a church should be founded on teaching verse by verse through

books of the Bible and through the entire Bible, not just the New Testament, the Old Testament as well.

And it's not that topical messages or sermons or series are forbidden.

It's not like that at all.

But that isn't the foundation of a church's preaching and teaching ministry.

Amen.

I'll tell you a little secret that I guess it's just you, me, and maybe a couple thousand people who listen to this, but

we'll see how many people actually hear this.

But when I'm preparing for a sermon, I start on Monday morning and I prepare, my

Sunday morning sermon is my primary focus for the week, the beginning of the week.

But usually around Friday or Saturday, I'll pull up a sermon to listen to from someone

that I don't know.

I just want to hear how somebody else handled that same text.

And maybe they've got an insight or a direction, or maybe they even saw something in the text I haven't seen.

And it's sometimes a helpful way to get me ready for the pulpit and maybe fix any things I might

need.

And nine times out of 10, when I'm pulling up a passage, like again, right now I'm in Second Corinthians,

we talked about this before the show, when I'm pulling up, I'm preaching Second Corinthians 7, 10 through 16.

If I type that into YouTube, within the top three videos is going to be a Calvary Chapel

pastor, because it seems like they've preached just about every verse of the Bible.

So it's going to have a sermon from a Calvary Chapel preacher.

It doesn't surprise me at all.

I mean, I don't want to sound weird about this, Keith, but I mean, there's literally hundreds of Calvary Chapel pastors

who have preached through the entire Bible often more than once.

It's just a church movement that's very committed to the expositional.

Teaching and preaching of God's Word.

Well, hey, since we are talking about preaching, and I definitely want to get more into the Calvary Chapel, I want to talk about the Jesus

Revolution, but I got to ask you a preaching question.

Sure.

Because I have a tendency to sometimes go too slow.

I have a tendency to sometimes let things roll into a two -part or three -part sermon when maybe I could have done it all in one, because I just

sometimes get into the details a little too much.

How long do you think is too long or too short when you're preaching through a book?

Let's say 2 Corinthians right now.

It's 13 chapters.

What would that normally take you to preach, if you could think 13 chapters?

Is it a chapter a month, a chapter?

How do you look at that?

Or are you able to do it that way?

I'm able to do it that way.

I mean, I think normally if I was going through a book like 2 Corinthians, I might spend two or maybe

three weeks on each chapter.

You're kind of going section by section more than strictly chapter by chapter.

There's one thing that I've had to reckon with as a preacher.

I've realized that I've got to be willing to let some things, and sometimes some very

good things, be left unsaid just because I want to emphasize other things, and I don't want it to

be a four -year journey through 2 Corinthians or whatever it would be.

So that is one of the bigger challenges.

I often recommend to pastors that they sort of just prayerfully block out how they want to

teach through a book at the beginning, and not that that's like handcuffs to prevent any variation, but I think it should be

generally consistent, not to where you spend three weeks on two verses, and

then you've got to cover two chapters to catch it up.

But if you can kind of have a consistent flow through the book, I think that's helpful for the congregation.

Yeah, that's helpful for me.

Again, I'm thankful that God has kept me in the same church for as long as He has, and the

church has allowed to see me make a lot of mistakes and grow.

Thankfully, people are still with me, and still I'm thankful for so much in the ministry that God's

given me.

But I enjoy preaching so much, and I enjoy talking to other preachers and asking them their ideas so that I can grow.

So thank you for that.

Well, it is a great thing, isn't it?

I.

Mean, look, preachers love to talk shop.

They kind of love to talk about what works, what doesn't, preparation ideas.

There's a lot around that that's very helpful.

Amen.

So when it comes to the Calvary Chapel movement, you mentioned the Jesus Revolution film.

I want to say, first of all, I haven't seen it yet.

I did want to watch it.

I just haven't had the opportunity.

But one of the things that has kept me from being as urgent and wanting to see it is I didn't know how accurate it was.

I know that sometimes Hollywood can, even though Kelsey Grammer, I think, is a great actor, he's not the one writing the movie.

So is it truthful?

I know it's not 100%.

No Hollywood movie is.

But did it get it basically right?

If somebody's watching it, can they say that, yeah, this is basically how it happened?

Oh, I think so.

I think that the tone of the movie is true.

Sure, it's not a documentary.

There's certain things back and forth.

You go, well, for example, in the movie, Chuck Smith, who's sort of the father of the Calvary Chapel

movement, Chuck Smith and his wife Kay, they show them as having one child,

their daughter Jan.

Well, in reality, they had four kids.

So certain things are just done for the sake of filmmaking.

But the movie is based on a book that was written by Greg Laurie that

basically tells his story.

And that's really what the movie's about.

It's both a story of the Calvary Chapel beginning, of Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel, and then of Greg

Laurie and Calvary Chapel.

And I think the movie's really well done.

And even though it's not true in every detail, the tone of it is.

Certainly true.

Great.

Well, that's helpful.

And that's a good endorsement to go check it out.

The character played by the man who plays Jesus in The Chosen,

Lonnie?

Lonnie Frisby.

Did you know him?

Did you ever meet him?

I did not personally know Lonnie Frisby.

I was just coming in to give my life to Christ at a time when he wasn't around very much

anymore.

But I certainly heard lots of Lonnie Frisby stories.

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

Yeah, that was the one.

Watching it, they play that up in the commercial, I think probably because he's got so much attention from The Chosen.

It's like, hey, here's another character that he plays and does it well.

So I found that interesting.

Well, when it comes to the history of Calvary Chapel and your history with it, I really want to ask you some doctrinal

questions.

We've talked about the methodology, which is a verse -by -verse

expositional teaching, which I think is wonderful and something I try to do as well.

But I'm sure there are areas where we differ theologically.

Obviously, I don't hide my theology.

I'm a Calvinist.

And I don't use that name to make enemies.

I do it because it was a funny thing happened to me one time years ago.

I walked into a restaurant near our church and a local pastor of one of the largest churches in Jacksonville,

he saw me and apparently knew who I was.

And he said, that guy's a Calvinist, like really loud.

And I stopped and he kind of hit his face like he knew I heard him.

And I said to myself, I said, I guess I'm the neighborhood Calvinist.

And it kind of became a joke.

And so since then, the podcast and everything kind of connects to that.

But that's sort of my theology.

I'm a Reformed Baptist.

If R. Scott Clark isn't listening, because he doesn't believe you can be a Reformed Baptist, but I joke about

that.

But what are some of the key distinctives in Calvary Chapel theology?

And is it consistent across the board, or are there a wavering

thoughts within the different churches?

Well, Keith, let me first just be very clear.

I'm.

Not speaking as some kind of official representative.

Oh, absolutely.

Yeah.

And we know that.

I'm happy to share my perspectives and my viewpoints, and I'm very open about that.

But I don't want anybody to get the wrong idea.

I don't have any official representation of Calvary Chapel in the movement, but I feel like I've

been in that whole environment long enough.

It's been my whole Christian life and ministry life as well, that I feel like I can speak to my own

experience.

Very important matters to the Calvary Chapel movement is, number one,

expositional teaching, verse by verse, through books of the Bible, to have a preaching and teaching ministry that's

founded on that.

But we are also a church movement that's open to the moving of the Holy Spirit and

is continuationist in that theology.

But I would say this, very much with the perspective that the

exercise of the more apparently miraculous gifts, because you

can make an argument that every expression of a gift of the Holy Spirit is miraculous in some way.

So I'll speak of the more apparently miraculous gifts, that those should not be made the center of

congregational life.

The center of congregational life should be the worship of God, the preaching of His Word,

prayer, and the fellowship of the saints.

So we are continuationist, very much so, but we don't believe that those apparently miraculous

gifts should be made the center of congregational experience, for example, Sunday services and such.

We also are very much a traditional movement with a very conservative theology.

We believe in the Bible, the inerrancy of the Scriptures.

Calvary Chapel churches are pretty strong on the idea of the roles of men and women in the

church and take a traditional view on that.

So these are some of the features, but another one that's been big, not so much doctrinally, but in the personality of the church,

is Calvary Chapel had a significant role in sort of bringing forth more of

the contemporary worship style in the church today.

I know for some people, they think that that's a regrettable thing, but it can't be denied that so

much of the modern worship of the church, at least in its beginning with a more contemporary worship

style, was influenced a lot by what was going.

On in Calvary Chapel.

Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right, and our church would be a

blend.

We do some contemporary music, some hymns, and I think most churches that are contemporary do blend.

I mean, they do hymns as well, but more of a contemporary style, even when they do

the hymns.

I certainly have a lot of friends in my neck of the woods and my movement who would be sort of opposed to

all of that and would want, I even have friends who are Psalms only, not only just hymns only, but like you can only sing the Psalms and

don't agree with them, but we remain brothers.

But as far as the music goes, that leads me to a question that I I

don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but when we talk about the rise in contemporary Christian music,

there are movements now that there are folks who are saying we should avoid

because of bad theology or bad teaching.

Do you think there is a point where we should not go, or do you think it's kind of

open to everything?

And I guess everybody would have a line.

Where's your line, I guess, is the question I'm asking.

Well, I would say absolutely.

That every pastor and every leadership team, what do you call it?

A board of elders or whatever the recognized leadership is at a church.

I think they have a responsibility to make sure that the congregation isn't singing heretical

things or that the tone of the worship experience

isn't oriented towards entertainment, but towards the true worship of God.

And so I think some of those are somewhat individual things that are going to be based on a pastor or leadership

team's understanding of where the congregation's out or opinion of a certain song.

Oh yeah, there's a lot in the contemporary music scene today that I think isn't

healthy and beneficial for the church.

You know, one thing that's interesting about that movie, The Jesus Revolution, and sort of the things that came out of

those early years of what you might call the Jesus Movement, was there was this unbelievable,

I don't know, sort of purity about the worship of this

early Jesus Movement groups.

And mostly because money was a very small, if at all, consideration

in it all.

You know, there weren't worship bands selling out packed stadiums.

There weren't huge record deals.

It was just a sincere expression of young people loving Jesus

and wanting to honor Him with the mediums that they were familiar with.

And where Christian music has gone in the last many decades, I think it's a challenge.

And I know many people who are on the inside of the Christian music scene who would admit that themselves, that it's a difficult

thing to negotiate.

But no, individual pastors and churches and congregations really need to consider those things carefully.

Yeah, absolutely.

Amen.

So getting back to the key doctrines, and again, I want to clarify, I know you're not an

official representative, and that's what Bowtie Dialogues is.

It's about a person who's in the movement, what brought you to the movement and what keeps you in the movement

and what do you believe.

That's kind of what it is.

You're not speaking as their official representative.

It's just this is what keeps you there.

Exactly so.

So theologically, you're continuationist rather than cessationist.

Are there churches within Calvary Chapel that lean more cessationist, or is it basically across the board

you're going to find?

It is interesting.

I mean, there is sort of a spectrum among Calvary Chapel churches because there's no policing of such

things within the movement unless somebody would get far, far out on the extremes.

But you'll find Calvary Chapel churches that you'd think

they're kind of indistinguishable from a Baptist church in a lot of ways they do.

There would be other ones that would consider perhaps mildly, and I would say appropriately,

Pentecostal.

So there is sort of a spectrum within the Calvary Chapel family just from

the convictions of individual pastors in.

Those congregations.

Sure.

And how does someone become a pastor in Calvary Chapel?

Obviously, it's probably not a presbytery, but how does one go from

laity to clergy, if that's even the right.

Term?

You know, one of the remarkable things about the Calvary Chapel movement, Keith, is that it's been

this really, I think, radically successful church planting movement,

but it was almost crazily organic.

In other words, nobody was sitting with a map in front of them saying, oh, we need to plant one here, we need to plant one there, and

the others.

But basically, out of one congregation in Orange County, California,

it came forth easily more than 2 ,000 congregations worldwide, and it could be considerably more than that.

I'm just quoting you the figure that I have on my head.

And the vast, vast majority of it was done in a very organic way with pastors being trained up

primarily in an apprenticeship model.

Calvary Chapel generally hasn't put a high priority on traditional paths of

education, but has put a much higher priority on the apprenticeship model.

You learn ministry by the teaching and preaching ministry of the church, maybe by a

school of ministry within the church, but most especially by doing it around those who are more experienced

and mentors and learning the pastoral vocation.

That way.

That's interesting.

And I think that's an important thing to consider, not wanting

to go too far afield with the conversation, but just some of the issues that I see in Christian

higher education.

I believe the church, and I've said this before, I believe the church itself should be an institution of higher learning, meaning

that I think that we should be training up leaders and pastors within the church.

And that's basically what you just said.

You're training them up in the church so that the seminary, in one sense, becomes

somewhat unnecessary because the church functions like a seminary.

The church is teaching these things.

And that goes right along with that.

Now, did you attend a seminary yourself or did you do the apprenticeship model?

Well, I only got my graduate degree much later in my ministry.

So primarily, most of my ministry life has really been done under that apprenticeship model where I

had men who were influential either from a distance or right up close that I

really learned how to do ministry from.

And there's a wonderful, I don't know, sort of a collegial atmosphere among the family of Calvary

Chapel pastors where we would learn from each other and help one another.

And that's really my own experience.

So my own more graduate degrees only came much later in my life in ministry.

Nice, nice.

So going back to the doctrinal question, we've talked about continuationism.

We've talked about the methodology of preaching.

I do have to ask this question because I know the answer, but I still want to hear your answer.

And that's the question of Calvinism versus non -Calvinism.

Obviously, I'm a Calvinist and I promise not to argue over it.

But the question of is that question pretty much settled in the Calvary

Chapel and everybody falls on one side or the other?

I know it's not Calvinism, but what is the position on that issue?

Or is there a spectrum just like there is with the others?

There is a spectrum, but I think I can communicate.

Where most Calvary Chapel pastors are.

And I understand how this kind of position is frustrating to a lot of

reform folks because Calvary Chapel largely would be among those people who would say, and again, I

sense the frustration from my reform brethren when we say this, we'd likely say, well, we're not Calvinist nor

Arminian, we just believe the Bible.

And again, I get why that's frustrating, but that's generally the attitude in the Calvary Chapel world.

We're not trying to advance the Calvinistic scheme nor an Arminian scheme, but we're just trying

to take the Bible as it comes to us.

That would be the predominant viewpoint.

Now, I can speak for myself personally.

I'm not reformed in my theology, but I have received far too much from

so many reformed pastors, authors, commentators, theologians over the year.

I'm a big Charles Spurgeon fan as well as a lot of other great reformed

ministers and pastors.

I've received a lot from John Calvin, from James Montgomery Boyce, from a lot of others as well.

I've received too much from them to regard myself as anti -Calvinist.

I don't feel like I have an ax to grind against Calvinists, but neither do I

accept or embrace their theological system.

That makes sense.

And the reason why I spoke up there is because I've read much of your commentary and different passages I've

taught on and looked at it.

And I say, here he's quoting Spurgeon, here he's quoting Spurgeon, and you do quote Spurgeon.

Liberally throughout.

I do.

And if I could, Keith, again, for me, the problems I've run into

with the reformed folks rarely have to do about the doctrine itself.

Like with a lot of things in life, it's more the attitude or the tone in which people hold those doctrines.

That's been more the sticking point a lot of time.

I really have had a lot of respect for Spurgeon because, well, Keith, you

know that famous line where Spurgeon says, you know, Calvinism is the gospel and the gospel is

Calvinism.

That's a very familiar one.

Keith, I don't know if you're familiar when in his ministry Spurgeon said that, because I

looked it up not too long ago.

Well, you know Spurgeon had well more than 3 ,000 published sermons.

That statement comes, that quotation comes in sermon number seven.

He was 21 or so years old, give or take a year when he said that.

And there's no doubt Spurgeon remained a Calvinist throughout his ministry.

But you find later on in his ministry, he would say things like this.

He would say, well, am I a Calvinist or Arminian?

It depends on what question you ask me.

If you ask me why a man is saved, I'll give you the Calvinistic answer.

It's only to God's glory alone.

But if you ask me why a man is damned, I'll give you the Arminian answer.

It lays only at his own door.

The fault does.

He goes, I don't care if you call me a Calvinist, Arminian, just as long as I can keep close to my Bible.

That's a paraphrase of a quote that Spurgeon said 20 or 30 years after he gave that famous

Calvinism is gospel and the gospel is Calvinism.

For me, I think that there's a lot of wonderful, wonderful Reformed brothers and sisters that I

get along with wonderfully, just famously with them.

But sure, you can have people who are prickly from any

doctrinal viewpoint, and that'll always cause some friction.

I think that's great.

I think that's helpful and insightful to say, this was early in his ministry.

I know I can go back 20 years ago.

I've been preaching, this is my 18th year as a pastor of Sovereign Grace Church.

There's some things that I said I would probably say much differently.

Now.

It's not so much that you believe differently, but you might phrase it differently.

Sure, sure.

I think that's very, very fair.

I have so many questions I want to ask you, and I think we've covered

a lot of the Calvary Chapel stuff, but do you mind if I ask you a few questions about

in your commentary, like some of the places where you may have had difficulties?

Because again, you're putting out something that's going to get a lot of people are reading it, their

Blue Letter Bible, they're getting it online.

I imagine you get emails every day.

Every day.

Yeah.

You said you do a question and answer, you were doing it today, right?

That's right, earlier today.

So, I mean, what little attention my podcast gets, I get emails every week, and I'm sure you're getting stuff

every day.

That's amazing, and praise God for giving you that platform.

But can I ask you a few questions about where you land on a few things, where your commentary lands, and have you gotten ...

Let me ask you this one question.

Let's start with this.

One.

Go right ahead.

What's the one thing that you've gotten the most feedback about, good or bad,

that is in the commentary?

People always comment on this thing.

Is there one thing, or maybe a couple of things that your position on X has marked you

with this group?

And then I have a few questions.

You know, I don't know so much if it comes from the commentary

itself, where people want to debate about specific interpretation of a passage.

But I do think that, look, there's a lot of people today who are taking a very critical view

towards dispensationalism.

And at least in some form, I'm a dispensationalist.

I don't have fancy charts and seven distinct ages and this and that.

But I do believe that there's a very real distinction between the church and Israel.

And that's something that people like to debate about.

So you could talk about eschatological things.

But more so, I don't get a lot of directed,

like, oh, your work on this psalm really is called into question or this or

that.

So I don't think there's any one, like, flashpoint in the commentary as a whole.

A lot of the comments we get are about basic biblical interpretation.

People feel like they have a correction they want to make or something that they want to add to it.

Every once in a while, I'll get a comment that I've been too critical of something like Roman Catholicism

in the commentary.

And we review these things where there's things to update we want to do.

We certainly do that.

The commentary, especially on our own website, is being constantly updated and corrected.

So that's interesting.

I was going to ask, so the one on your website is, does that affect the one that's on Blue Letter or does that kind of take a time to

trickle down?

The corrections get to Blue Letter Bible eventually.

You know, Blue Letter Bible is a massive website.

Sure.

My contribution to it is relatively small on that website.

And so they've got a lot of fish to fry, so to speak.

But those corrections eventually make their way to Blue Letter Bible.

But on EnduringWord .com, I mean, there's been changes or updates made every week.

Sometimes it's as small as a punctuation or a mistaken Bible reference.

But we're also updating new content.

You know, Keith, basically, since this reflects work that goes back almost 40 years in my own life in

ministry, I'm constantly going back to my oldest material, looking at it and saying, man,

I could do that better, I think, if I had another run at it.

And so recently I put out complete revisions of the book of Joshua, the book of Deuteronomy, just

things that I think I can do better with.

Awesome.

Here's a few of the questions I want to ask, and hopefully none of these would be hitting you

out of left field because, again, you're a scholar and a commentary writer.

You probably have your mind set on where you are on these things, but these are questions that often come up in my conversations with

people.

And so I would say in your commentary, which direction do you go?

Is that OK to ask?

Let's do it.

OK, so here's one that I get quite often, and that's

1 Corinthians 11 and regarding head coverings.

Do you go in the direction of head coverings as a necessity, or do you believe it's a cultural

thing, or do you find a middle ground, or do you have an entirely different understanding?

When I preached through it, I came to a different conclusion that was sort of strange, but I'd love

to hear your thoughts.

And again, I know that's a weird thing to pull out of nowhere.

Now you've excited my own curiosity.

I want to hear your thoughts, but I'm happy to say what I think.

Look, I think that the principle behind head coverings is extremely relevant

for the today.

I think that the principle that God has appointed the leadership of qualified men in the

church, and that that's something to be respected, not only by the women, but they have their own particular way to show that

respect.

Now I would say that in the Corinthian culture, and not only that it was Corinth, but in many places in the

ancient world at that time, that that was just a well -known way to express that, the wearing of a

head covering.

In our own day and age, I don't think that a head covering communicates that.

So I think that the principle lasts and that the principle should be observed in the church today.

I think the relevant way to express the principle, as it was in the Corinthian church, isn't relevant to us, but the

principle is.

An analogy I draw sometimes with this, Keith, is the idea of a holy kiss.

The Bible talks about a holy kiss more than it does head coverings.

And it says that, but we contextualize that, I think, appropriately.

We say, okay, we understand that there should be a spirit of warm fellowship and hospitality and greeting.

It doesn't have to be done with a literal kiss.

Well, I take that same general principle behind the idea of the head covering in Corinthians and say that's what

needs to be really stressed among our congregations today, not what was the

outward way to show it in Corinthian culture.

Okay.

That's very close to what you asked me about what I had taught on it.

You tell them.

Well, I came to the conclusion, basically like you did, that there's a principle here, the principle of headship

and the principle of recognizing the distinction between men and women.

Paul makes an argument that men have short hair, women have long hair, and that makes a distinction between them.

And while it's interesting, because that's not always true, certain cultures, men did have long hair,

and like the ancient Native American culture, warriors tend to have

long hair.

So it's kind of an interesting, that's still in and of itself is somewhat cultural, but yet the principle is true

that there is a order of creation and that men and women should be distinguished from one another.

And even in worship, there should be a continual understanding of this distinction.

And so I actually, if I remember correctly, I said cross -dressing is not allowed.

And I know that's maybe a weird way of coming to a conclusion, but it's like, we're not supposed to try to

blur the lines between men and women, but keep those lines distinct.

And that was the point that I made.

Well, and that's not the only passage in the Bible that presents that principle.

Sure.

I mean, I think that's a valid way to understand the basic principle behind it.

Yeah.

All right.

So another passage on my mind, and again, I'm just, I'm kind of pulling things out.

Like what do people ask me?

Who do you think wrote Hebrews?

Who do you think wrote Hebrews?

You know what?

I'm going to be contrarian.

I do not think it was Paul.

I don't either.

Look at us.

We're on the same team.

Come on, Keith.

Okay.

Now I'll give you my favorite candidate, but I'm fine with leaving it anonymous.

The main reason I don't believe it was Paul was because where is it in chapter two or three?

He talks about being one who received the gospel from those first

generation apostles.

Testify.

I'm praising the Lord because you're making the same argument that I make.

Well, Keith, I'll tell you, we're either both smart or we're both dumb, but we're together on.

This.

We'll hold hands and go into the fight.

Okay. Yeah.

If I were to give a kind of a favored candidate for author of Hebrews, I'd say it was

Apollos.

There's a man who knew all about the Old Testament.

He was eloquent, like Hebrews is eloquent.

That would be my dark horse, but I try to be very careful when I'm talking about Hebrews.

I use the phrase, the author of Hebrews, and that's how I'd like to speak about it.

I get a little bit miffed when people say, as Paul says, and this about this in Hebrews, but whatever.

I mean, it's not like it's a big deal, but I notice when people say that.

That's right.

That's true.

And yeah, I'm not a Paul guy.

I like David Allen's argument for Luke as an author of Hebrews.

I think that's an interesting position and that would put Luke as the by far

most prolific author of the new covenant scriptures because

I've heard that by word count in the original, just Luke and Acts

gives him that title.

Oh, he does.

I'm saying this puts him out of the park.

Sure. Yeah. That would increase his lead by a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So maybe that's just my hopeful thinking, but I do like that one.

How about Romans 7?

That's when I recently did an in -house debate on one of our elders and I, we taught a hermeneutics class

and we ended up discussing Romans 7 and we both have different positions.

Even though we share the pastorship of the church, we were able to have that in -house

debate in front of the class.

And I think it was very helpful because the class got to see us be gracious with one another, even in a disagreement.

But I'll tell you where I land only after you tell.

Me where you land.

And again, I got people I love and respect who differ with me on this.

And so I think I understand their perspective, but I don't agree with it.

But I'm of the one who says, I think that that's Paul writing as a regenerate man.

And the reason why I say that is that the battle that he feels to me feels reminiscent of

the kind of battle that someone who genuinely wants to do the will of God.

And I think that's kind of a mark of being born again.

And so that would be my emphasis.

The thing I like to major on when I teach you that Romans 7 passage is the

almost comical way that Paul refers to

himself again and again and again.

I, me, my, myself.

There's really no other section of Paul's writing to my mind that really matches that, where I think he's

deliberately exaggerating to say that the focus is on him, not on

Christ.

And really that's the essence of his problem.

But I am of the one who would say that I do believe that because of his desire to do the will of God, I would say

that I think he's regenerate writing that.

Amen.

Well, again, this is,.

I promise we didn't set this up beforehand and try to agree.

This just happens to be, my fellow elder takes a pre -regenerate position on Paul and made a

good argument for it, even though I didn't agree with him.

And we were able to have a very good and I think fruitful conversation before our people.

So that was encouraging.

We're three for three here, Keith.

Yeah.

Again, I'm nervous.

I think people are going to think we set this up beforehand.

I can promise that we didn't.

Having to switch a camera issue, having a little camera issue here, I'm just switching over.

Okay.

So with that being said, how about your position on

the synoptic gospels?

Now this might be one that some people don't even, some people might not understand the Roman seven question, because some

people don't even know that's an issue.

But the synoptic problem, I just preached through the gospel of Mark on Wednesday nights, and I tend to

hold to a different view than most modern scholars in regard to the order of the gospel.

So what order do you think the gospels were written in?

Do you take a mark in priority.

Or do you have a different view on that?

There's something in me that wants to look to Matthew as being the first gospel written.

Go with that feeling.

That's what early church thought, and to me, that's my first instinct.

Sometimes I feel so pushed by a lot of the New Testament scholars and

critics I read.

For them, it's axiomatic that Mark was first written, but I just haven't shared that opinion.

And especially with those whole literary theories and the reliance on Q and the rest of it,

I don't have any problem saying I.

Think Matthew was the first written.

Man, I promise to the audience this was not pre -done, because I've said these things publicly.

This isn't like me just agreeing with you to be friendly.

I mean, this is what I taught.

I just taught, like I said, I think I was in Mark for a year, I think is what we did on Wednesday night.

And several times I talked about the order.

I think it's the order that we have them or the order they're written in it.

I think it was Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

So I'm going to go back into the Old Testament now.

Do you mind doing.

This a little bit longer?

Well, I love doing this.

Come on.

I could do this all day, Keith.

Yeah.

All right.

So going back into the Old Testament, you already mentioned you have a dispensational bend, and I'm sure

we disagree on some things, but certainly not going to make that an issue.

But in regard to how you interpret the Old Testament, would you consider your

interpretation of the Old Testament to be Christocentric, Christotelic,

or something else?

And if you're unfamiliar with those, and you may be because those are not normal terms that a lot of people use, Christocentric

is, but Christotelic is sort of an odd one.

Well, okay.

Yeah.

If I.

Understand what you mean by the term Christotelic, I would probably say that's it.

This is how I try to say.

I try to say that the whole Old Testament isn't about Jesus, but it

points to.

Jesus.

Yeah.

He is the purpose.

Christotelic, I think, is the point.

It points to him, but it's.

Not every passage is about him.

And I know some of this just gets down to how people use terminology, and I don't want to get hung up on words so much.

I'm more interested in the ideas behind it.

But if you just want to be very strict with the words, I don't like it when people say, for

example, the story of David and Goliath is really about Jesus.

No, the story of David and Goliath is about David and Goliath.

I mean, that's what happened there.

Now, it points to Jesus in marvelous, wonderful ways that I think a good preacher

is going to point out and really develop there.

And so I just kind of make that distinction between the text being about...

No, certainly,.

Certainly there are many passages that are about Jesus.

I thought David and Goliath was about me slaying the giants in my life.

I thought that's what it was about.

What are you telling me?

Yeah, that's right.

That's maybe three or four applications down the line.

But again, there are obviously some passages in the Old Testament that are so much about Jesus.

You talk about the classic, Isaiah 53s, Genesis 315, all the rest of it, of course.

But I don't labor to make every passage in the Old

Testament about Jesus, but I do like to see where it points to Jesus.

Gotcha.

And where I find, and not to go too far afield on this, but where I find the biggest issue I

have, I tend to be a more Christocentric guy, but I agree with you.

I'm not disagreeing with what you've said.

I think you and I would line up very closely.

I have found on some guys who I do disagree with would

try to divorce Christ from certain things.

I talked to a brother one time who said he didn't even think Isaiah 53 was about Jesus.

And I was like, yeah, I'm like...

What a conversation that must have been.

It was hard.

And it actually was an awkward moment because I don't want to get too much into the story, but he was teaching a

Bible study that my wife was in.

And he said, well, I know your husband would disagree with this.

And he goes into this stuff.

And then my wife comes home and tells me, and I was like, I got to call this guy.

I guess I certainly do disagree.

With him.

You know, I mean, especially these passages that the New Testament specifically cites and says that they're about Jesus.

Yeah, exactly.

Wow.

Going back further, Genesis.

I preached through Genesis.

And to this day, my wife says it was the best thing she thinks I've ever done as far as exposition.

I love the stories of Genesis and being able to give an exposition there.

Where do you land on Genesis 1 as

literal days, long -term?

And that would put you typically in the camp known as young earth or old earth.

I know you're a creationist.

I assume that you're not an evolutionist.

Thank you for that, Keith.

Yes, I am.

Yes.

But would you be Hugh Ross, old earth, or would you be a Ken Ham, young earth or somewhere in the middle?

No, I definitely tend towards the young earth.

I've tried to listen to the arguments for the old earth.

And I'm trying to appreciate some of those arguments and trying to see the perspective where they're coming from.

But their arguments have not carried the day for me.

I think just in the way that God gave us to understand the most straightforward

explanation of his word is that the earth is relatively young.

I wouldn't try to assign a number to it, but I'd say the earth is relatively young.

So I'd consider myself a young earth creationist.

Me too, man.

We're going lockstep through here.

People are going to think I'm a Calvary Chapel preacher.

I'm listening to them.

I'm sharing a lot of commonality with one.

Boy, people are going to, I'm going to get called.

I'm going to be told, hey, look at you.

You'd stand out with a bow tie in the Calvary Chapel circles.

I imagine I would.

Now, are you guys, that does bring up a quick question going back to Calvary Chapel.

Is it a very relaxed atmosphere as far as clothing and things like that?

Yes, absolutely.

And kind of was early on.

Now, Pastor Chuck Smith, the very respected leader, the guy

who was just kind of the father of the movement, he preached every Sunday morning in a suit and tie, but not

many other Calvary Chapel pastors did.

A few did.

But yeah, it's very much a movement known for a more just kind of casual atmosphere, if you want to

say that.

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

Well, I tell you what I want to do for the last few minutes that we have, we're getting close to the hour mark, and I've really loved our

conversation.

But as we're drawing closer to the hour, I want to ask you some fun questions.

I think the Bible questions were fun, but I want to ask you a little bit more, just maybe make you laugh a little, and maybe we can

laugh together a little bit.

Number one, if you could take any Bible story and turn it into a movie that

hasn't already been done, so you can't do David and Goliath or the Nativity story, you got to do something unique.

And you can't see it, but in my office, I have movie posters all around me.

I'm a movie nerd.

And so if you could take a Bible story and turn it into a movie,.

What would you use?

Well, man, there's so much to choose from.

I mean, the Bible is the best story ever, I mean, from beginning to end.

So I mean, look, how amazing would it be to see a movie of the life of Paul

from beginning to end?

Life of Elijah, Elijah with the prophets on Mount Carmel.

I mean, wouldn't that be an amazing movie right there?

And we have it all too.

It had the violence in it that everybody would love as well.

It's an incredible story.

The story of Jonah, man, what a tremendous movie that would make.

Have they ever made a Jonah?

I know VeggieTales did Jonah, but I don't think that counts.

But I don't think we'd count that really.

I mean, but no, not to my knowledge.

So yeah, the Bible is just almost, just like you, Keith, man,

I love preaching the whole Bible, of course, but there is something special about preaching the narrative passages

and just letting the power of the biblical story tell itself because it's all right there on the

page.

We just have to really.

Let it speak for itself.

Amen.

Anybody ever tell you you look a little bit like Richard Dreyfuss?

Oh, now come on.

No, I'm a huge Jaws fan.

Well, I say, oh, come on, because I get that a fair amount.

Okay, you do.

Okay.

I figured you might.

My friends are going to crack up that you said that.

That's great. That's great.

They're not going to let me hear the end of it because I moan to him all the time.

There's another person said I look like Richard Dreyfuss.

Oh, yeah.

And I said, have you seen the guy?

He's like 75, 80 years old, you know?

Well, I said, oh, no, you look like a younger Richard Dreyfuss, but it doesn't make me feel much better.

Mr. Holland's opus, Richard Dreyfuss, not very old Richard Dreyfuss.

And I mentioned Jaws.

He was in his 20s.

That's right.

So there you go.

Okay, so same vein, same concept, but different idea.

Church history.

Are you a person who studies and looks at church history a lot?

Is that a big part of your life?

I know it is.

I'm a real fan of church history.

And on the YouTube channel, I have a couple of church history series that some people have thought are helpful.

Great.

So is there a story in church history that you think would make a great movie?

Well, and you're talking about one that hasn't been done.

I mean, Luther's whole story is so theatrical.

I'd like to see some stuff done on Wycliffe or the

Valdenzis, Peter Valdo.

Man, what amazing stories those guys had.

And I'd pay good money to see an accurate movie done about Wycliffe, especially because of

his challenge.

Or this has probably already been done, but it hasn't been popularly released.

John Huss.

What a tremendous story that was.

Some of these precursors of Luther would be tremendous movies.

There was a movie about Huss done.

I've seen parts of it, and it was really, I mean, when he's killed at the end.

And there's a point where in the movie, he's waiting for his judgment

to come.

And he's sitting next to a candle.

And again, this is all movie.

It's not what happened in real life, at least that we know of.

But he reaches down to the candle and touches it to his finger and jerks his hand away.

And he looks at his hand, looking, knowing what's coming.

And man, that'll just break your heart.

You watch that, and you see the actor does such a good job portraying that fear of the reality of what's

coming.

Man, yeah.

Huss is one of those guys.

He is such a terrible, sad story, and yet a man who stood for Christ and is a

hero for sure.

Couple quick, simple questions.

Number one, your favorite hymn of all time.

And you can do contemporary worship songs too, whichever.

What song to you is most meaningful and you love it?

And you'd say, this is the song I want played if I have the choice to do worship.

Well, look, I mean, there's so many remarkable, remarkable songs.

You know, it's hard to get away from some of the classic, like, Holy, Holy, Holy.

What a tremendous hymn that is.

So I'd say that's the one that first comes to mind.

Look, there's some good worships.

There's a lot of bad worship songs out there now, but there are some good ones.

A lot of them just don't seem to have the same lasting power.

But I'll tell you a song from Calvary Chapel background, a little bit of

Jesus movement.

Not the heat of it in the 70s, but a little bit later.

I was just listening to the other day, Keith, and I can't decide if it's the best Christian worship chorus ever written or the

worst.

But that one, Servant of All, and the whole song is this.

If you want to be great in God's kingdom, learn to be the servant of all.

That's it.

It just repeats that in different ways with different variations.

And I tell you, that song's very powerful.

I love worship songs that are rooted in Scripture.

Amen.

And I wish that contemporary songwriters would

give more and more attention to it.

I know there's some who are, and I appreciate it.

But man, ones that develop themes right out of Scripture, man, I love that.

I'm going to look that one up.

I lead worship twice a week or twice a month at our church.

We have a police officer who leads on the other two, but he has to work two Sundays a month.

So I lead two Sundays.

He leads two Sundays.

And I play guitar.

So I play a lot of 90s contemporary.

So it's not contemporary anymore.

It's 25 years old, but I play a lot of 90s music.

Look that one up.

I will.

I will.

The book that you would recommend, number one, if somebody said, hey, what's the best Christian book you've

ever read?

Or, and I know there's too many to say the best, but just like with the song, what one book do you recommend to everyone?

You know, like you said, there's many.

But I'll tell you one that if people haven't heard about this book, they should get it and they should read it.

By a dear friend of mine, a man who I hope has had a big impact on my life in ministry, a man named Gail

Irwin and his book, The Jesus Style.

Gail has such a wonderful way of explaining the nature of Jesus and how it applies

to life and a very relevant for ministry as well.

I think it's a marvelous book.

And again, I'll say, I hope that Gail Irwin has had big impact on my life, but that's a tremendous one.

And I'll throw one other out if I could.

Chuck Smith wrote a great book called Why Grace Changes Everything.

And that's gotta be one of my favorite books by Pastor Chuck Smith.

It's really not just about grace.

It's sort of just a comprehensive book about the Christian life and discipleship.

But man, that's a tremendous book as well.

Amen.

Last question.

A sermon that you said, when you walked out, you said, this best sermon I've ever heard.

And I know that's hard to say, because again, you've heard probably more than books in music.

You've probably heard thousands and thousands of sermons.

But is there one sermon, maybe it's the one that converted you.

Maybe it was that Laurie sermon.

But is there one sermon that you heard that you walked out and you said, boy, that's life changing?

Okay, I'll tell you just, and what a question.

Because like you say, I mean, I've heard thousands of sermons in my life.

And listen, I've had the privilege to listen to some great preachers and teachers in our Calvary Chapel family.

But the message that came immediately to mind when you said that was a message I heard at a pastor's

conference by Calvary Chapel pastor named Damian Kyle.

He pastors at Calvary Chapel in Modesto, California.

And if I remember the title of the sermon right, it was like the failures or the faults of the good

kings.

And what he did was he just did a walk through the kings of Judah who were the good kings.

And yet each one of them had their own flaws and weaknesses that it's

really beneficial for us to pay attention to those.

So I tell you, it was so enlightening and convicting that

for whatever reason, that's the sermon that came to my mind immediately.

Amen, amen.

Well, brother, I'm so thankful we had an opportunity to have this conversation.

And I'm thankful we connected.

And I hope that in the future, I'll be able to invite you back on.

And maybe we can dive into a specific subject and go a little deeper now that we've gotten to know each

other.

But as we close, please remind everyone how they can get ahold of you, how they can see where

they can find your stuff.

We're going to have the links below, but just remind everyone.

Well, they can find us the usual places, the website, EnduringWord .com, social

media, if they just search for Enduring Word or my name, David Guzik.

Same thing with YouTube.

We appreciate the opportunity God's given us on that.

But if they just look up the website, EnduringWord .com, they can see our resources there.

That's usually the easiest place to find those things.

I tell you, Keith, I'm very grateful for the ministry God's given me.

It was never something that I was looking for, but I'm just kind of amazed at how God has seemed to use it

over the years.

But even with all the blessings that I've had in ministry, I tell you, you got one thing that I don't have and I've never had, and I don't think

I'll ever have it.

Keith Foskey, I don't have my own theme song.

And I'll tell you what, it's really amazing.

I'm very impressed by what you got with that theme song.

And again, I don't think I'm going to try to imitate it, but I just want you know, I got a lot of respect for that.

Congratulations.

Well, thank you for saying that.

I will give a shout out to the one man who made it happen.

And that's Hans Feeney.

Do you know Lutheran satire?

I do.

I've seen some of his stuff on Twitter.

He wrote it, produced it, and performed it.

And I remember going through the creative process with him.

He would send me ideas.

And he sent me the preview for it.

And even the preview was great.

And what ended up being was awesome.

So thank you for mentioning that.

Hans is a great guy.

Boy, what a fun episode that was.

Man, I enjoyed talking to David.

Such a wealth of knowledge and such a good brother.

So thankful to have him on the show.

And I want to thank you for watching the show.

I'm encouraged to continue to see folks like you who are out there, who are supporting the show.

And I'm very grateful.

I want to also remind you that if you want to reach out to me, if you have a question, or if you

have a comment about a show, or if you want to recommend maybe a new guest or a topic for me to deal with,

you can go to KeithFoskey .com, and you can send me an email directly through the website.

I want to remind you also, if you enjoyed this show, please hit the thumbs up button.

And if you didn't, hit the thumbs down button twice.

Thank you for listening to your Calvinist podcast.

My name is Keith Foskey, and I've been your Calvinist.

May God bless you.