Bow Tie Dialogue: Calvary Chapel (Guest David Guzik)

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But even with all the blessings that I've had in ministry, I tell you, you got one thing that I don't have and I've never had, and I don't think

00:06

I'll ever have it. Keith Foskey, I don't have my own theme song. And I'll tell you what, it's really amazing.

00:12

I'm very impressed by what you got with that theme song. And again, I don't think I'm going to try to imitate it, but I just want you to know

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I got a lot of respect for that. Congratulations. Need a friendly voice with some good theology

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Calvinist to be speaking So I mix a manly drink Pepsi and shoe polish

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And I hit the YouTube link Don't say hit, that sounds violent And I feel my troubles all melt away

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Oh -oh -oh -oh -oh It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey Beards and bowties, laughs till sunrise

01:08

It's your Calvinist podcast with Keith Foskey He's not like most

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Calvinists, he's nice Your Calvinist podcast is filmed before a live studio audience.

01:28

And welcome back to Your Calvinist podcast. My name is Keith Foskey, and I am your

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Calvinist. And I am super excited to get to my guest today. We are doing another

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Bowtie Dialogue. And if you don't know what a Bowtie Dialogue is, this is something I began several months ago, where I invite leaders or pastors from other denominations into the program.

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And we talk just about the things that make their denomination great or make their movement great and where it came from.

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And we talk about all of those things. And the man that I have on today is someone that I am super excited to talk to.

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He's a pastor. He's also a writer of a wonderful commentary. And we're going to get to him in just one second.

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But before we do that, I want to remind you, as I do with every show, that we are a ministry of Sovereign Grace Family Church.

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So if you are in the Jacksonville area, I want to encourage you to come and visit us at Sovereign Grace. And you can find out about us on our brand new website that we just had redone at sgfcjacks .org.

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And you can go and find that and get more information about that on their website. Also, if you want to support the show, we always encourage you to do that by going to buymeacoffee .com

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slash your Calvinist. Well, again, I'm welcoming today a man who many of you will probably know just by name or by face, but even if you don't know his name or his face, you probably know his work.

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David Guzik is a pastor and writer, and I'm bringing him on right now. He is the author of the

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Enduring Word Commentary. I got that right, right, David? It's the Enduring Word. We do. That's correct. And I want to thank you for coming on your

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Calvinist podcast today. Keith, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to join you. Yes, sir. And, uh,

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I was just excited to get to talk to you and, and, and, and to have the opportunity to do so in front of my audience makes it even better because I've personally benefited from your work.

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Your commentary is available online. It's available to anyone who wants to go and find it and use it.

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It's, it's not one that you have to, to, to be able to afford. Like a lot of the digital material that's out there right now is behind a paywall.

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They can go get the commentary. What inspired you to do that and make it accessible to so many people?

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Well, it kind of happened in a roundabout way, Keith. What I have online is my Bible commentary really is just my teaching notes.

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And, uh, many years ago, more than 25 years ago, I found out just through some unusual circumstances that what

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I prepared for myself as preaching and teaching notes was helpful for other people as Bible commentary.

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And so I never sat down with a plan, I'm going to write a commentary on the whole Bible or any part of the Bible, but that's how it worked out just with my preaching and teaching ministry through Books of the

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Bible. And it first went online more than 25 years ago on the Blue Letter Bible website.

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Uh, we saw that it was helpful for people. And, uh, then we started our own website and during word .com.

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So right now, sort of prominently featured it's both on my website and during word .com, but then also the

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Blue Letter Bible website. See, that's where I think I learned about it was on Blue Letter Bible is such a useful tool for so many people.

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And it's one of the, again, it's a free resource. So a lot of people go there and I work with a, um, every

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Thursday, I go preach at a place called Set Free. It's a men's recovery ministry, uh, for men who are coming out of addiction and things like that.

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And a lot of the guys there who have access to the internet are using things like Blue Letter Bible to be able to do research and your commentary comes up.

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It's one of the ones that we've talked about. So such a blessing to so many people. And, and, and you, you said you just got back from Italy, right?

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Where your commentary is being translated. I was just in Italy. We were there because we finished the translation of my entire

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New Testament commentary into Italian. And so I was doing a couple events and speaking at some churches and meeting with pastors.

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We're really happy to promote it because, uh, we want people to know about it in these different language groups where we have a very active work translating the commentary into those different languages.

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Wonderful. Wonderful. So you are, um, for, for the

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Bowtie Dialogue today, we, we, we want to talk about your background and your history and you are part of the great non -denominational denomination.

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Maybe I'm saying it wrong, but that's a fair enough description. Um, Calvary Chapel is the, is the group that you are associated with, correct?

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That's correct. Yeah. And, um, when did you come into Calvary Chapel and how long have you been associated with them?

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Well, the, the first Protestant church I ever walked into was a church called

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Calvary Chapel Riverside. And, uh, maybe some of your viewers or listeners have seen that movie, the

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Jesus Revolution at the very end of that movie, uh, the, the older pastor played by Kelsey Grammer, uh, he hands some keys to, uh, the, the actor who plays the role of Greg Laurie and that the church that Greg Laurie started, uh, just a few years after the end of that movie was the first Protestant church

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I ever walked into. And Greg Laurie, uh, that pastor was the first Protestant preacher I ever heard.

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And, uh, it really made a deep impression on me. And the second time that I ever attended that church, I responded to the invitation to put my trust in Jesus Christ.

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And, uh, that was as a very young teenager, but it gave me a real, um, pattern, not only for Christian discipleship, but also for ministry.

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That's amazing. Okay. So your first pastor was Greg Laurie. That's correct. Uh, even though, uh,

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I was really raised the first few years of my Christian life in a very kind of organic thing with a lot of wonderful home

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Bible studies among a very active group of young people who just love the Lord. But, uh, that, that church pattern, that pastoral model was definitely given to me by Greg Laurie.

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Nice. Nice. Now, do you know him personally? Have y 'all done things together? We've done a few things together.

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Uh, I really, uh, admire Greg. He's made a tremendous impression on my life.

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And of course, how can I not really respect and admire the man? He, he preached the gospel to me and, and, and challenged me to put my faith in Christ.

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And again, even, uh, beyond that provided such a model of expositional teaching and preaching of God's word that has really had an impact on my life and my ministry.

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You know, that's interesting because, uh, one of the things that I I've noticed about Calvary Chapel preaching is it tends to be verse by verse.

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Is that, is that, is that model followed fairly well? Absolutely. That's a very strong value in sort of our

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Calvary Chapel family is, uh, that, that the fundamental preaching and teaching ministry of a church should be founded on teaching verse by verse through books of the

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Bible and through the entire Bible, not just the new Testament, the old Testament as well. And it's not that topical messages or sermons or series are forbidden.

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It's not like that at all, but that, that isn't the foundation of a church's preaching and teaching ministry.

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Amen. I'll tell you a little, a little secret that I guess it's just you, me, and maybe a couple of thousand people who listen to this, but we'll see how many people actually hear this.

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Uh, but the, um, when I'm preparing for a sermon, you know, I start on Monday morning and I prepare, you know, my, my

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Sunday morning sermon is my primary focus for the week, you know, beginning of the week. But usually around Friday or Saturday, I'll pull up a sermon to listen to from someone that I don't know.

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Like I just want to hear how somebody else handled that same text. And maybe they've got an insight or a direction, or maybe they even saw something in the text

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I haven't seen. And it's sometimes a helpful way to, you know, get me ready for the pulpit and maybe fix any, you know, any things

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I might need. And nine times out of 10, when I'm pulling up a passage, like again, right now

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I'm in second Corinthians. We talked about this before the show, when I'm pulling up a, you know, I'm preaching second Corinthians seven, 10 through 16.

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If I type that into YouTube, the top within the top three videos is going to be a

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Calvary Chapel pastor, because it seems like they've preached just about every verse of the Bible. So it's going to have a sermon from a

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Calvary Chapel preacher. It doesn't surprise me at all. I mean, I don't want to sound weird about this

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Keith, but I mean, there's literally hundreds of Calvary Chapel pastors who have preached through the entire

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Bible, often more than once. It's just a church movement that's very committed to the expositional teaching and preaching of God's word.

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Well, hey, since I am, we are talking about preaching and I definitely want to get more into the Calvary Chapel. I want to talk about the

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Jesus revolution, but I got to ask you a preaching question. Sure. Because I have a tendency to sometimes go too slow.

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I have a tendency to sometimes let things roll into a two -part or three -part sermon when maybe I could have done it all in one, because I just sometimes get into the details a little too much.

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How long do you think is too long or too short when you're preaching through a book? Let's say second

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Corinthians right now, it's 13 chapters. What would that normally take you to preach?

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If you could think, you know, 13 chapters, is it a chapter a month, a chapter, you know, how do you look at that?

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Or are you able to do it that way? I'm able to do it that way. I mean, I think normally if I was going through a book like second

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Corinthians, I might spend two or maybe three weeks on each chapter.

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You know, you're kind of going section by section more than strictly chapter by chapter. And there's one thing that I've had to reckon with as a preacher.

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I've realized that I've got to be willing to let some things and sometimes some very good things be left unsaid just because I want to emphasize other things.

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And I don't want it to be, you know, a four -year journey through second Corinthians or whatever it would be.

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So that is one of the bigger challenges. I often recommend to pastors that they sort of just prayerfully block out how they want to teach through a book at the beginning.

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And not that that's like handcuffs to prevent any variation, but I think it should be generally consistent.

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Not to where you spend three weeks on two verses, and then you got to cover two chapters to catch it up.

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But if you can kind of have a consistent flow through the book, I think that's helpful for the congregation. Yeah, that's helpful for me.

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Again, I'm thankful that God has kept me in the same church for as long as he has, and the church has allowed to see me make a lot of mistakes and grow.

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And thankfully people are still with me and still, you know, I'm thankful for so much in the ministry that God's given me.

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But I enjoy preaching so much, and I enjoy talking to other preachers and asking them their ideas so that I can grow.

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So thank you for that. Well, it is a great thing, isn't it? I mean, look, preachers love to talk shop.

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They kind of love to talk about what works, what doesn't, preparation ideas.

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There's a lot around that that's very helpful. Amen. So when it comes to the

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Calvary Chapel movement, you mentioned the Jesus Revolution film. I want to say, first of all,

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I haven't seen it yet. I did want to watch it. I just haven't had the opportunity. But one of the things that has kept me from being as urgent and wanting to see it is

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I didn't know how accurate it was. And I know that sometimes Hollywood can, even though Kelsey Grammer, I think is a great actor, he's not the one writing the movie.

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So, you know, is it truthful? I know it's not 100 percent.

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No Hollywood movie is. But did it get it basically right? If somebody is watching it, can they say that, yeah, this is basically how it happened?

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Oh, I think so. I think that the tone of the movie is true. Sure, it's not a documentary.

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There's certain things back and forth. You go, well, for example, in the movie, Chuck Smith, who's sort of the father of the

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Calvary Chapel movement, Chuck Smith and his wife, Kay, they show them as having one child, their daughter,

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Jan. Well, in reality, they had four kids. So, you know, certain things are just done for the sake of filmmaking.

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But the book is really, excuse me, the movie is based on a book that was written by Greg Laurie that basically tells his story.

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And that's that's really what the movie is about. It's both a story of the

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Calvary Chapel beginning of Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel and then of Greg Laurie and Calvary Chapel.

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Now, I think the movie is really well done. And even though it's not true in every detail, the tone of it is certainly true.

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Great. Well, that's helpful. And that's a good, good endorsement to to go check it out. The the character played by I'm the man who plays

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Jesus in The Chosen. Right. Lonnie. Lonnie Frisby. Did you know him?

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Did you ever meet him? I did not personally know Lonnie Frisby. I was just coming in to giving my life to Christ at a time when he wasn't around very much anymore.

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But I certainly heard lots of Lonnie Frisby stories. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, that was the one, you know, watching it.

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They play that up in the commercial, I think probably because he's got so much attention from The Chosen.

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It's like, hey, here's another character that he plays and does it well. So found that interesting.

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Well, when it comes to the history of Calvary Chapel and your history with it, I really want to ask you some doctrinal questions.

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We've talked about the methodology, which is a verse by verse expositional teaching, which

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I think is wonderful and something I try to do as well. But I'm sure there are areas where we differ theologically.

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Obviously, I don't hide my theology. I'm a Calvinist. And I don't use that name to make enemies.

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I do it because it was a funny thing happened to me one time years ago. I walked into a restaurant near our church and a local pastor of one of the largest churches in Jacksonville, he saw me and apparently knew who

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I was. And he said, that guy's a Calvinist, like really loud. And I stopped. And I, and he, and he kind of hit his face like he knew

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I heard him. And I get, I said to myself, I said, I guess I'm the neighborhood Calvinist. And it kind of became a joke.

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And so since then, you know, the podcast and everything kind of connects to that. But that's my, sort of my theology.

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I'm Reformed Baptist. If, if, if, if our Scott Clark isn't listening, because he doesn't believe you can be a

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Reformed Baptist, but I joke about that. But what, what are some of the key distinctives in Calvary Chapel theology?

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And is it consistent across the board or are there wavering thoughts within the different churches?

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Well, Keith, let me first just be very clear. You know, I'm not speaking as some kind of official representative.

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Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And we know that. I'm happy to share my perspectives and my, my viewpoints, and that I'm very open about that, but I don't want anybody to get the wrong idea.

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I don't have any official representation of Calvary Chapel and movement, but I feel like I've, I feel like I've been in that whole environment long enough.

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It's been my whole Christian life and ministry life as well that I feel like I can, I can speak to my own experience.

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Very important matters to the Calvary Chapel movement is number one, expositional teaching, verse by verse through books of the

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Bible, to have a preaching and teaching ministry that's founded on that. But we are also a church movement that's open to the moving of the

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Holy Spirit and is continuationist in that, that theology. But I would say this very much with the perspective that the exercise of the more apparently miraculous gifts, because you can, you can make an argument that every expression of a gift of the

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Holy Spirit is miraculous in some way. So I'll speak of the more apparently miraculous gifts, that those should not be made the center of congregational life.

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The center of congregational life should be the worship of God, the preaching of his word, prayer, and the fellowship of the saints.

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So we are continuationist, very much so, but we don't believe that those apparently miraculous gifts should be made the center of congregational experience, for example,

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Sunday services and such. We also are very much a traditional movement with a very conservative theology, and we believe in the

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Bible, the inerrancy of the scriptures. Calvary Chapel churches are pretty strong on the idea of the roles of men and women in the church and take a traditional view on that.

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So these are some of the features, but another one that's been big, not so much doctrinally, but in the personality of the church, is

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Calvary Chapel had a significant role in sort of bringing forth more of the contemporary worship style in the church today.

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I know for some people they think that that's a regrettable thing, but it can't be denied that so much of the modern worship of the church, at least in its beginning with a more contemporary worship style, was influenced a lot by what was going on in Calvary Chapel.

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Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right, and our church would be a blend.

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We do some contemporary music, some hymns, and I think most churches that are contemporary do blend.

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I mean, they do hymns as well, but more of a contemporary style even when they do the hymns.

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I certainly have a lot of friends in my neck of the woods and my movement who would be sort of opposed to all of that and would want—I even have friends who are psalms only, not only just hymns only, but you can only sing the psalms and don't agree with them, but we remain brothers.

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But as far as the music goes, that leads me to a question that I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but when we talk about the rise in contemporary

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Christian music, there are movements now that there are folks who are saying we should avoid because of bad theology or bad teaching.

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Do you think there is a point where we should not go, or do you think it's kind of open to everything?

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I guess everybody would have to have a line. Where's your line, I guess, is the question I'm asking. Well, I would say absolutely that every pastor and every leadership team, what do you call it, a board of elders or whatever, they recognize leadership is at a church.

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I think they have a responsibility to make sure that the congregation isn't singing heretical things or that the tone of the worship experience isn't oriented towards entertainment, but towards the true worship of God.

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And so I think some of those are somewhat individual things that are going to be based on a pastor or leadership team's understanding of where the congregation's out or opinion of certain song.

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Oh yeah, there's a lot in the contemporary music scene today that I think isn't healthy and beneficial for the church.

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You know, one thing that's interesting about that movie, The Jesus Revolution, and sort of the things that came out of those early years of what you might call the

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Jesus movement, was there was this unbelievable, I don't know, sort of purity about the worship of this early

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Jesus movement groups. And mostly because money was a very small, if at all, consideration in it all.

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You know, there weren't worship bands selling out packed stadiums. There weren't huge record deals.

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It was just a sincere expression of young people loving Jesus and wanting to honor

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Him with the mediums that they were familiar with. And where Christian music has gone in the last many decades,

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I think it's a challenge. And I know many people who are on the inside of the Christian music scene who would admit that themselves, that it's a difficult thing to negotiate.

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But no, individual pastors and churches and congregations really need to consider those things carefully.

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Yeah, absolutely. Amen. So getting back to the key doctrines, and again,

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I want to clarify, I know you're not an official representative, and that's what Bowtie Dialogues is. It's about a person who's in the movement, what brought you to the movement, and what keeps you in the movement, and what do you believe.

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That's kind of what it is. You're not speaking as their official representative.

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It's just this is what keeps you there. Exactly so. So theologically, you're continuationist rather than cessationist.

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Are there churches within Calvary Chapel that lean more cessationist, or is it basically across the board you're going to find?

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No. It is interesting. I mean, there is sort of a spectrum among Calvary Chapel churches because there's no policing of such things within the movement unless somebody would get far, far out on the extremes.

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But you'll find Calvary Chapel churches that you'd think they're kind of indistinguishable from a

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Baptist church in a lot of ways they do. There would be other ones that you would consider perhaps mildly, and I would say appropriately,

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Pentecostal. So there is sort of a spectrum within the Calvary Chapel family just from the convictions of individual pastors in those congregations.

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Sure. And how does someone become a pastor in Calvary Chapel? Obviously, it's probably not a presbytery, but how does one go from laity to clergy, if that's even the right term?

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You know, one of the remarkable things about the Calvary Chapel movement, Keith, is that it's been this really,

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I think, radically successful church planting movement, but it was almost crazily organic.

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In other words, nobody was sitting with a map in front of them saying, oh, we need to plant one here, we need to plant one there, and the others.

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But basically, out of one congregation in Orange County, California, came forth easily more than 2 ,000 congregations worldwide, and it could be considerably more than that.

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I'm just quoting you the figure that I have on my head. And the vast, vast majority of it was done in a very organic way with pastors being trained up primarily in an apprenticeship model.

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Calvary Chapel generally hasn't put a high priority on traditional paths of education, but has put a much higher priority on the apprenticeship model.

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You learn ministry by the teaching and preaching ministry of the church, maybe by a school of ministry within the church, but most especially by doing it around those who are more experienced and mentors and learning the pastoral vocation that way.

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That's interesting. And I think that's an important thing to consider, not wanting to go too far afield with the conversation, but just some of the issues that I see in Christian higher education.

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I believe the church, and I've said this before, I believe the church itself should be an institution of higher learning, meaning that I think that we should be training up leaders and pastors within the church.

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And that's basically what you just said. You're training them up in the church so that the seminary, in one sense, becomes somewhat unnecessary because the church functions like a seminary.

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The church is teaching these things. And that goes right along with that.

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Now, did you attend a seminary yourself or did you do the apprenticeship model? Well, I only got my graduate degree much later in my ministry.

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So primarily, most of my ministry life has really been done under that apprenticeship model where I had men who were influential either from a distance or right up close that I really learned how to do ministry from.

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And there's a wonderful, I don't know, sort of a collegial atmosphere among the family of Calvary Chapel pastors where we would learn from each other and help one another.

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And that's really my own experience. So my own more graduate degrees only came much later in my life in ministry.

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Nice, nice. So going back to the doctrinal question, we've talked about continuationism.

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We've talked about the methodology of preaching. I do have to ask this question because I know the answer, but I still want to hear your answer.

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And that's the question of Calvinism versus non -Calvinism. Obviously, I'm a

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Calvinist and I promise not to argue over it. But the question of, is that question pretty much settled in the

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Calvary Chapel and everybody falls on one side or the other? I know it's not Calvinism, but what is the position on that issue or is there a spectrum just like there is with the others?

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There is a spectrum, but I think I can communicate where most Calvary Chapel pastors are. And I understand how this kind of position is frustrating to a lot of reform folks because the

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Calvary Chapel largely would be among those people who would say, and again, I sense the frustration from my reform brethren when we say this, we'd likely say, well, we're not

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Calvinist nor Arminian, we just believe the Bible. And again, I get why that's frustrating, but that's generally the attitude in the

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Calvary Chapel world. We're not trying to advance the Calvinistic scheme nor an

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Arminian scheme, but we're just trying to take the Bible as it comes to us. That would be the predominant viewpoint.

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Now I can speak for myself personally. I'm not reformed in my theology, but I have received far too much from so many reformed pastors, authors, commentators, theologians over the year.

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I'm a big Charles Spurgeon fan as well as a lot of other great reformed ministers and pastors.

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I've received a lot from John Calvin, from James Montgomery Boyce, from a lot of others as well. I've received too much from them to regard myself as anti -Calvinist.

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I don't feel like I have an ax to grind against Calvinists, but neither do I accept or embrace their theological system.

29:00

That makes sense. And the reason why I spoke up there is because I've read much of your commentary and different passages

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I've taught on and looked at it. And I say, oh, here he's quoting Spurgeon, here he's quoting Spurgeon, and you do quote

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Spurgeon liberally throughout. I do. And if I could, Keith, again, for me, the problems

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I've run into with the reformed folks rarely have to do about the doctrine itself.

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Like with a lot of things in life, it's more the attitude or the tone in which people hold those doctrines.

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That's been more the sticking point a lot of time. I really have had a lot of respect for Spurgeon because, well,

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Keith, you know that famous line where Spurgeon says, you know, Calvinism is the gospel and the gospel is

29:49

Calvinism. That's a very familiar one. Keith, I don't know if you're familiar when in his ministry

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Spurgeon said that, because I looked it up not too long ago. Well, you know Spurgeon had well more than 3 ,000 published sermons.

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That statement comes, that quotation comes in sermon number seven. He was 21 or so years old, give or take a year, when he said that.

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And there's no doubt Spurgeon remained a Calvinist throughout his ministry. But you find later on in his ministry, he would say things like this.

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He would say, well, am I a Calvinist or Arminian? It depends on what question you ask me.

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If you ask me why a man is saved, I'll give you the Calvinistic answer. It's only to God's glory alone. But if you ask me why a man is damned,

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I'll give you the Arminian answer. It lays only at his own door. The fault does. He goes, I don't care if you call me a

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Calvinist or Arminian, just as long as I can keep close to my Bible. That's a paraphrase of a quote that Spurgeon said 20 or 30 years after he gave that famous Calvinism is gospel and the gospel is

30:58

Calvinism. So for me, I think that there's a lot of wonderful, wonderful Reformed brothers and sisters that I get along with wonderfully, just famously with them.

31:11

But sure, you can have people who are prickly from any doctrinal viewpoint, and that'll always cause some friction.

31:21

I think that's great. I think that's helpful and insightful to say, this was early in his ministry.

31:29

And I know I can go back 20 years ago. I've been preaching, this is my 18th year as a pastor of Sovereign Grace Church.

31:36

And there are some things that I said I would probably say much differently now. And it's not so much that you believe differently, but you might phrase it differently.

31:47

Sure, sure. I think that's very, very fair. I have so many questions

31:53

I want to ask you, and I think we've covered a lot of the Calvary Chapel stuff.

31:59

But do you mind if I ask you a few questions about in your commentary, like some of the places where you may have had difficulties?

32:09

Because again, you're putting out something that's going to get a lot of people reading it, their

32:15

Blue Letter Bible, they're getting it online. And I imagine you get emails every day. Every day.

32:21

Yeah. And you said you do a question and answer. You were doing it today, right? That's right. Earlier today. So, I mean, what little attention my podcast gets,

32:30

I get emails every week, and I'm sure you're getting stuff every day. And that's amazing. And praise God for giving you that platform.

32:37

But can I ask you a few questions about where you land on a few things, where your commentary lands, and have you gotten...

32:43

Let me ask you this one question. Let's start with this one. Go right ahead. What's the one thing that you've gotten the most feedback about, good or bad, that is in the commentary?

32:55

People always comment on this thing. Is there one thing or maybe a couple of things that your position on X has marked you with this group?

33:04

And then I have a few questions. You know, I don't know so much if it comes from the commentary itself, where people want to debate about specific interpretation of a passage.

33:18

But I do think that, look, there's a lot of people today who are taking a very critical view towards dispensationalism.

33:26

And at least in some form, I'm a dispensationalist. I don't have fancy charts and seven distinct ages and this and that.

33:34

But I do believe that there's a very real distinction between the church and Israel. And that's something that people like to debate about.

33:42

So you could talk about eschatological things. But more so, I don't get a lot of directed, like, oh, your work on this psalm really is called into question or this or that.

33:58

So I don't think there's any one, like, flashpoint in the commentary as a whole. A lot of the comments we get are about basic biblical interpretation.

34:07

People feel like they have a correction they want to make or something that they want to add to it.

34:14

Every once in a while, I'll get a comment that I've been too critical of something like Roman Catholicism in the commentary.

34:21

And we review these things where there's things to update we want to do.

34:27

We certainly do that. The commentary, especially on our own website, is being constantly updated and corrected.

34:35

So that's interesting. I was going to ask, so the one on your website is, does that affect the one that's on Blue Letter or does that kind of take a time to trickle down?

34:43

The corrections get to Blue Letter Bible eventually. Blue Letter Bible is a massive website.

34:49

My contribution to it is relatively small on that website. And so they've got a lot of fish to fry, so to speak.

34:57

But those corrections eventually make their way to Blue Letter Bible. But on EnduringWord .com,

35:04

I mean, there's been changes or updates made every week. Sometimes it's as small as a punctuation or a mistaken

35:13

Bible reference. But we're also updating new content. Keith, basically, since this reflects work that goes back almost 40 years in my own life in ministry,

35:24

I'm constantly going back to my oldest material, looking at it and saying, man, I could do that better,

35:30

I think, if I had another run at it. And so recently, I put out complete revisions of the Book of Joshua, the

35:37

Book of Deuteronomy, just things that I think I can do better with. Awesome.

35:43

Here's a few of the questions I want to ask, and hopefully none of these would be hitting you out of left field because, again, you're a scholar and a commentary writer.

35:54

You probably have your mind set on where you are on these things, but these are questions that often come up in my conversations with people.

36:02

And so I would say in your commentary, which direction do you go? Is that okay to ask you? Let's do it. Okay. So here's one that I get quite often, and that's 1

36:13

Corinthians 11 regarding head coverings. Do you go in the direction of head coverings as a necessity, or do you believe it's a cultural thing, or do you find a middle ground, or do you have an entirely different understanding?

36:24

When I preached through it, I kind of came to a different conclusion that was sort of strange, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

36:31

And again, I know that's a weird thing to pull out of nowhere. Now you've excited my own curiosity. I want to hear your thoughts, but I'm happy to say what

36:37

I think. Look, I think that the principle behind head coverings is extremely relevant for the church today.

36:45

I think that the principle that God has appointed the leadership of qualified men in the church, and that that's something to be respected not only by the women, but they have their own particular way to show that respect.

36:58

Now, I would say that in the Corinthian culture, and not only that it was Corinth, but in many places in the ancient world at that time, that was just a well -known way to express that, the wearing of a head covering.

37:11

In our own day and age, I don't think that a head covering communicates that. So I think that the principle lasts, and that the principle should be observed in the church today.

37:21

I think the relevant way to express the principle, as it was in the Corinthian church, isn't relevant to us, but the principle is.

37:28

An analogy I draw sometimes with this, Keith, is the idea of a holy kiss. You know, the

37:34

Bible talks about a holy kiss more than it does head coverings, and it says that, but we contextualize that,

37:41

I think, appropriately. We say, okay, we understand that there should be a spirit of warm fellowship and hospitality and greeting.

37:48

It doesn't have to be done with a literal kiss. Well, I take that same general principle behind the idea of the head covering in Corinthians, and say that's what needs to be really stressed among our congregations today, not what was the outward way to show it in Corinthian culture.

38:07

Okay. That's very close to what you asked me about what

38:13

I had taught on it. Do tell. Well, I came to the conclusion, basically like you did, that there's a principle here, the principle of headship and the principle of recognizing the distinction between men and women.

38:26

Paul makes an argument that men have short hair, women have long hair, and that makes a distinction between them. And while it's interesting, because that's not always true, certain cultures, men did have long hair, you know, in like the ancient

38:38

Native American culture, warriors tend to have long hair. So it's kind of an interesting, that's still in and of itself is somewhat cultural, but yet the principle is true, that there is a order of creation, and that men and women should be distinguished from one another.

38:55

And even in worship, there should be a continual understanding of this distinction. And so I actually, if I remember correctly,

39:02

I think I said cross -dressing is not allowed. And I know that's maybe a weird way of like coming to a conclusion, but it's like, we're not supposed to try to blur the lines between men and women, but keep those lines distinct.

39:16

And that was the point that I made. Well, and that's not the only passage in the Bible that presents that principle.

39:23

Sure. I mean, I think that's a valid way to understand the basic principle behind it. Yeah. All right.

39:30

So another passage on my mind, and again, I'm just, I'm kind of pulling things out. Like, what do people ask me?

39:35

Who do you think wrote Hebrews? Who do you think wrote Hebrews? You know what? I'm going to be contrarian. I do not think it was

39:40

Paul. I don't either. Look at us. We're on the same team. Come on, Keith. Okay.

39:46

I'll give you my favorite candidate, but I'm fine with leaving it anonymous. The main reason

39:51

I don't believe it was Paul was because where is it in chapter two or three, he talks about being one who received the gospel from those first generation apostles.

40:06

Testify, I'm praising the Lord because you're making the same argument that I make. Well, Keith, I'll tell you, we're either both smart or we're both dumb, but we're together on this.

40:15

We'll hold hands and go into the fight. Okay. If I were to give a favored candidate for author of Hebrews, I'd say it was

40:24

Apollos. There's a man who knew all about the Old Testament.

40:29

He was eloquent, like Hebrews is eloquent. And so, yeah, that would be my dark horse. But I try to be very careful when

40:36

I'm talking about Hebrews. I use the phrase, the author of Hebrews. And that's how

40:42

I'd like to speak about it. I get a little bit miffed when people say, as Paul says, and this about this in Hebrews, but whatever.

40:48

I mean, it's not like it's a big deal, but I notice when people say that. But we don't know. That's right. That's true.

40:54

And yeah, I'm not a Paul guy. I like David Allen's argument for Luke as an author of Hebrews.

41:03

I think that's an interesting position. And that would put Luke as the by far most prolific author of the

41:13

New Covenant Scriptures. I've heard that by word count in the original, just Luke and Acts gives him that title.

41:23

Oh, he does. I'm saying this puts him out of the park. Sure. Yeah. That would increase his lead by a lot. Yeah. So maybe that's just my hopeful thinking, but I do like that one.

41:33

How about Romans 7? That's one I recently did an in -house debate on.

41:38

One of our elders and I, we taught a hermeneutics class and we ended up discussing

41:44

Romans 7 and we both have different positions. Even though we share the pastorship of the church, we were able to have that in -house debate in front of the class.

41:54

And I think it was very helpful because the class got to see us be gracious with one another, even in a disagreement. But I'll tell you where I land only after you tell me where you land.

42:04

And again, I got people I love and respect who differ with me on this. And so I think I understand their perspective, but I don't agree with it.

42:11

But I'm of the one who says, I think that that's Paul riding as a regenerate man. And the reason why

42:16

I say that is that the battle that he feels to me feels reminiscent of the kind of battle that someone who genuinely wants to do the will of God.

42:26

And I think that's kind of a mark of being born again. And so that would be my emphasis.

42:32

The thing I like to major on when I teach you that Romans 7 passage is the almost comical way that Paul refers to himself again and again and again.

42:46

I, me, my, myself. There's really no other section of Paul's writing to my mind that really matches that, where I think he's deliberately exaggerating to say that the focus is on him, not on Christ.

43:02

And really that's the essence of his problem. But I am of the one who would say that I do believe that because of his desire to do the will of God, I would say that I think he's regenerate riding that.

43:15

Amen. Well, again, this is, I promise we didn't set this up beforehand and try to agree.

43:21

This just happens to be, my fellow elder takes a pre -regenerate position on Paul, made a good argument for it, even though I didn't agree with him.

43:30

And we were able to have a very good and I think fruitful conversation before our people.

43:36

So that was encouraging. We're three for three here, Keith. Yeah. Again, I'm nervous.

43:42

I think people are going to think we set this up beforehand. I can promise that we didn't. Having to switch a camera issue, having a little camera issue here.

43:49

So I'm switching over. Okay. So with that being said, how about your position on the synoptic gospels?

43:58

Now this might be one that some people don't even, some people may not understand the Roman seven question because some people don't even know that's an issue.

44:06

But the synoptic problem, I just preached through the gospel of Mark on Wednesday nights. And I tend to hold to a different view than most modern scholars in regard to the order of the gospel.

44:18

So what order do you think the gospels were written in? Do you take a mark in priority or do you have a different view on that?

44:26

There's something in me that wants to look to Matthew as being the first gospel written.

44:32

Go with that feeling. Okay. That's what the early church thought. And to me, that's my first instinct.

44:39

Sometimes I feel so pushed by a lot of the New Testament scholars and critics

44:46

I read. For them, it's axiomatic that Mark was first written, but I just haven't shared that opinion.

44:52

And especially with those whole literary theories and the reliance on Q and the rest of it,

44:58

I don't have any problem saying, I think Matthew was the first written. Man, I promise to the audience, this was not pre -done because I've said these things publicly.

45:09

This isn't like me just agreeing with you to be friendly. I mean, this is what I taught. I just thought, like I said,

45:15

I think I was in Mark for a year, I think is what we did on Wednesday night. And several times

45:22

I talked about the order. I think it's the order that we have them or the order they're written in it.

45:27

I think it was Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. So I'm going to go back into the

45:32

Old Testament now. Do you mind doing this a little bit longer? Oh, I love doing this. Come on. I could do this all day, Keith. Yeah. All right.

45:38

So going back into the Old Testament, you already mentioned you have a dispensational bend and I'm sure we disagree on some things, but certainly not going to make that an issue.

45:48

But in regard to how you interpret the Old Testament, would you consider your interpretation of the

45:54

Old Testament to be Christocentric, Christotelic, or something else?

46:02

And if you're unfamiliar with those, and you may be because those are not normal terms that a lot of people use.

46:08

Christocentric is, but Christotelic is sort of an odd one. Well, okay. Yeah. If I understand what you mean by the term

46:14

Christotelic, I would probably say that's it. This is how I try to say. I try to say that the whole

46:21

Old Testament isn't about Jesus, but it points to Jesus.

46:28

Yeah. He is the purpose. That's Christotelic, I think is the point. It points to him, but not every passage is about him.

46:36

And I know some of this just gets down to how people use terminology. And I don't want to get hung up on words so much.

46:41

I'm more interested in the ideas behind it. But if you just want to be very strict with the words, I don't like it when people say, for example, the story of David and Goliath is really about Jesus.

46:55

No, the story of David and Goliath is about David and Goliath. I mean, that's what happened there. Now, it points to Jesus in marvelous, wonderful ways that I think a good preacher is going to point out and really develop there.

47:08

And so, I just kind of make that distinction between the text being about...

47:13

No, certainly, certainly there are many passages that are about Jesus. I thought

47:19

David and Goliath was about me slaying the giants in my life. I thought that's what it was about. What are you telling me? Yeah, that's right.

47:25

Yeah. That's maybe three or four applications down the line. But again, there are obviously some passages in the

47:34

Old Testament that are so much about Jesus. You talk about the classic Isaiah 53s,

47:40

Genesis 315, all the rest of it, of course. But I don't labor to make every passage in the

47:48

Old Testament about Jesus, but I do like to see where it points to Jesus. Gotcha.

47:55

And where I find, and not to go too far afield on this, but where I find the biggest issue

48:00

I have, I tend to be a more Christocentric guy, but I agree with you. I'm not disagreeing with what you've said. I think you and I would line up very closely.

48:07

I have found, on some guys who I do disagree with, would try to divorce

48:14

Christ from certain things. I talked to a brother one time who said he didn't even think Isaiah 53 was about Jesus.

48:21

Good heavens. Yeah. I'm like, where are you... What a conversation that must have been. It was hard, and it actually was an awkward moment because...

48:29

I don't want to get too much into the story, but he was teaching a Bible study that my wife was in, and he said, well,

48:35

I know your husband would disagree with this, and he goes into this stuff, and then my wife comes home and tells me, and I was like, I got to call this guy. I guess

48:41

I certainly do disagree with him. You know, I mean, especially these passages that the New Testament specifically cites and says that they're about Jesus.

48:49

Yeah, exactly. Wow. Going back further, Genesis.

48:56

I preached through Genesis, and to this day, my wife says it was the best thing she thinks

49:03

I've ever done as far as exposition. I love the stories of Genesis and being able to give an exposition there.

49:09

Where do you land on Genesis one as literal days, long -term, and that would put you typically in the camp known as Young Earth or Old Earth?

49:23

I know you're a creationist. I assume that you're not an evolutionist. Thank you for that, Keith. Yes, I am.

49:28

Yes, but would you be Hugh Ross Old Earth, or would you be a Ken Ham Young Earth, or somewhere in the middle?

49:34

No, I definitely tend towards the Young Earth. I've tried to listen to the arguments for the

49:41

Old Earth, and I'm trying to appreciate some of those arguments and trying to see the perspective where they're coming from, but their arguments have not carried the day for me.

49:52

I think just in the way that God gave us to understand the most straightforward explanation of His Word is that the earth is relatively young.

50:01

I wouldn't try to assign a number to it, but I'd say the earth is relatively young. I'd consider myself a

50:07

Young Earth creationist. Me too. Man, we're going lockstep through here.

50:12

People are going to think I'm a Calvary Chapel preacher. I'm listening to them. I'm sharing a lot of commonality with one.

50:20

Boy, people are going to ... I'm going to get called. I'm going to be told, hey, look at you. You'd stand out with a bow tie in the

50:26

Calvary Chapel circles. I imagine. I imagine I would. Now, are you guys ... That does bring up a quick question, going back to Calvary Chapel.

50:33

Is it a very relaxed atmosphere as far as clothing and things like that tend to be?

50:39

Absolutely. It was early on. Pastor Chuck Smith, the very respected leader, the guy who was just the father of the movement, he preached every

50:52

Sunday morning in a suit and tie, but not many other Calvary Chapel pastors did. A few did, but yeah, it's very much a movement known for a more just casual atmosphere, if you want to say that.

51:06

Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, I'll tell you what I want to do for the last few minutes that we have. We're getting close to the hour mark, and I've really loved our conversation, but as we're drawing closer to the hour,

51:17

I want to ask you some fun questions. I think the Bible questions were fun, but I want to ask you a little bit more, just maybe make you laugh a little, and maybe we can laugh together a little bit.

51:26

Number one, if you could take any Bible story and turn it into a movie that hasn't already been done, so you got to do something unique.

51:38

You can't see it, but in my office, I have movie posters all around me. I'm a movie nerd.

51:45

If you could take a Bible story and turn it into a movie, what would you use?

51:53

Well, man, there's so much to choose from. I mean, the Bible's the best story ever, I mean, from beginning to end.

51:59

Look, how amazing would it be to see a movie of the life of Paul from beginning to end?

52:08

Life of Elijah, Elijah with the prophets on Mount Carmel. I mean, wouldn't that be an amazing movie right there?

52:16

And it would have it all too. It'd have the violence in it that everybody would love as well. It's an incredible story.

52:23

The story of Jonah, man, what a tremendous movie that would make. Have they ever made a

52:28

Jonah? I know VeggieTales did Jonah, but I don't think that counts. I don't think we'd count that, really.

52:34

I mean, but no, not to my knowledge. So yeah, the Bible is just almost, just like you,

52:42

Keith. Man, I love preaching the whole Bible, of course, but there is something special about preaching the narrative passages and just letting the power of the biblical story tell itself, because it's all right there on the page.

52:56

We just have to really let it speak for itself. Amen. Anybody ever tell you you look a little bit like Richard Dreyfuss?

53:04

Oh, now come on. No, I'm a huge Jaws fan. Well, I say, oh, come on, because I get that a fair amount.

53:12

Okay, you do. Okay. I figured you might. My friends are going to crack up that you said that. That's great.

53:18

They're not going to let me hear the end of it, because I moan to them all the time. There's another person said I look like Richard Dreyfuss.

53:24

Oh, yeah. And I said, have you seen the guy? He's like 75, 80 years old. Oh, no, you look like a younger

53:30

Richard Dreyfuss, but it doesn't make me feel much better. Mr. Holland's opus, Richard Dreyfuss. Not very old

53:37

Richard Dreyfuss. And I mentioned Jaws. He was in his 20s. That's right. So there you go. Okay.

53:43

So same vein, same concept, but different idea. Church history.

53:49

Are you a person who studies and looks at church history a lot? Is that a big part of your life?

53:54

Yeah, no, it is. I'm a real fan of church history. And on the

53:59

YouTube channel, I have a couple of church history series that some people have thought are helpful. Great.

54:05

So is there a story in church history that you think would make a great movie? Well, and you're talking about one that hasn't been done.

54:14

I mean, Luther's whole story is so theatrical. I'd like to see some stuff done on Wycliffe.

54:24

The Valdenzis, Peter Valdo. Man, what amazing stories those guys had.

54:32

And I'd pay good money to see an accurate movie done about Wycliffe, especially because of his challenge.

54:38

Or this has probably already been done, but it hasn't been popularly released. John Huss.

54:45

What a tremendous story that was. Some of these precursors of Luther would be tremendous movies.

54:50

There was a movie about Huss done. I've seen parts of it. And it was really, I mean, when he's killed at the end and there's a point where in the movie, he's waiting for his judgment to come and he's sitting next to a candle.

55:07

And again, this is all movie. It's not what happened in real life, at least that we know of. But he reaches down to the candle and touches it to his finger and jerks his hand away.

55:15

And he looks at his hand, looking, knowing what's coming. And man, that'll just break your heart.

55:22

You watch that and you see the actor does such a good job portraying that fear of the reality of what's coming.

55:29

Man. Yeah. Huss is one of those guys. I mean, he is such a terrible, sad story.

55:38

And yet a man who stood for Christ and as a hero for sure. A couple of quick, simple questions.

55:45

Number one, your favorite hymn of all time. And you can do contemporary worship songs too, whichever.

55:51

What song to you is most meaningful and you love it and you'd say, this is the song

55:57

I want played if I have the choice to do worship. Well, look, I mean, there's so many remarkable, remarkable songs.

56:07

It's hard to get away from some of the classic, like, Holy, Holy, Holy. What a tremendous hymn that is.

56:16

So I'd say that's the one that first comes to mind. Look, there's some good worships.

56:23

There's a lot of bad worship songs out there now, but there are some good ones. And a lot of them just don't seem to have the same lasting power.

56:33

But I'll tell you a song from Calvary Chapel background, a little bit of Jesus movement, not the heat of it in the seventies, but a little bit later.

56:43

I was just listening to the other day, Keith, and I can't decide if it's the best Christian worship chorus ever written or the worst.

56:50

But that one, Servant of All. And the whole song is this, if you want to be great in God's kingdom, learn to be the servant of all.

56:58

It just repeats that in different ways with different variations. And I tell you, that song's very powerful.

57:05

I love worship songs that are rooted in Scripture. I wish that contemporary songwriters would give more and more attention to it.

57:18

I know there's some who are, and I appreciate it. But man, ones that develop themes right out of Scripture, man,

57:24

I love that. I'm going to look that one up. I lead worship twice a week or twice a month at our church.

57:30

We have a police officer who leads on the other two, but he has to work two Sundays a month. So I lead two

57:35

Sundays, he leads two Sundays, and I play guitar. So I play a lot of nineties contemporary.

57:41

So it's not contemporary anymore. It's 25 years old, but I play a lot of nineties music. Look that one up.

57:47

I will, I will. The book that you would recommend, number one, if somebody said, hey, what's the best

57:56

Christian book you've ever read? And I know there's too many to say the best, but just like with the song, what one book do you recommend to everyone?

58:06

Like you said, there's many, but I'll tell you one that if people haven't heard about this book, they should get it and they should read it.

58:13

By a dear friend of mine, a man who I hope has had a big impact on my life in ministry, a man named

58:19

Gail Irwin and his book, The Jesus Style. Gail has such a wonderful way of explaining the nature of Jesus and how it applies to life and a very relevant for ministry as well.

58:33

I think it's a marvelous book. And again, I'll say, I hope that Gail Irwin has had a big impact on my life, but that's a tremendous one.

58:41

And I'll throw one other out if I could. Chuck Smith wrote a great book called

58:48

Why Grace Changes Everything. And that's gotta be one of my favorite books by Pastor Chuck Smith.

58:55

It's really not just about grace. It's sort of just a comprehensive book about the

59:01

Christian life and discipleship, but man, that's a tremendous book as well. Amen. Last question, a sermon that you said when you walked out, you said, this best sermon

59:14

I've ever heard. And I know that's hard to say, because again, you've heard probably more than books and music.

59:20

You've probably heard thousands and thousands of sermons, but is there one sermon? Maybe it's the one that converted you.

59:27

Maybe it was that Laurie sermon, but is there one sermon that you heard that you walked out and you said, boy, that's life -changing?

59:32

Okay. I'll tell you just, and what a question, because like you say, I mean, I've heard thousands of sermons in my life.

59:38

And listen, I've had the privilege to listen to some great preachers and teachers in our Calvary Chapel family.

59:45

But the message that came immediately to mind when you said that was a message I heard at a pastor's conference by a

59:52

Calvary Chapel pastor named Damian Kyle. He pastors at Calvary Chapel in Modesto, California. And if I remember the title of the sermon right, it was like the failures or the faults of the good

01:00:04

Kings. And what he did was he just did a walk through the Kings of Judah who were the good

01:00:10

Kings. And yet each one of them had their own flaws and weaknesses that it's really beneficial for us to pay attention to those.

01:00:20

So I tell you, it was so enlightening and convicting that for whatever reason, that's the sermon that came to my mind immediately.

01:00:31

Amen. Amen. Well, brother, I'm so thankful we had an opportunity to have this conversation and I'm thankful we connected.

01:00:39

And I hope that in the future, I'll be able to invite you back on, and maybe we can dive into a specific subject and go a little deeper now that we've gotten to know each other.

01:00:50

But as we close, please remind everyone how they can get a hold of you, how they can see where they can find your stuff.

01:00:57

We're going to have the links below, but just remind everyone. Well, they can find us the usual places, the website, enduringword .com,

01:01:05

social media, if they just search for Enduring Word or my name, David Guzik, same thing with YouTube.

01:01:11

We appreciate the opportunity God's given us on that. But if they just look up the website, enduringword .com,

01:01:18

they can see our resources there. That's usually the easiest place to find those things.

01:01:24

I tell you, Keith, I'm very grateful for the ministry God's given me. It was never something that I was looking for, but I'm just kind of amazed at how

01:01:34

God has seemed to use it over the years. But even with all the blessings that I've had in ministry, I tell you, you got one thing that I don't have, and I've never had, and I don't think

01:01:42

I'll ever have it. Keith Foskey, I don't have my own theme song. And I'll tell you what, it's really amazing.

01:01:48

I'm very impressed by what you got with that theme song. And again, I don't think I'm going to try to imitate it, but I just want you to know

01:01:55

I got a lot of respect for that. Congratulations. Well, thank you for saying that. I will give a shout out to the one man who made it happen, and that's

01:02:04

Hans Feeney. Do you know Lutheran satire? I do. I've seen some of his stuff on Twitter.

01:02:10

He wrote it, produced it, and performed it. And I remember going through the creative process with him. He would send me ideas.

01:02:18

He sent me the preview for it, and even the preview was great.

01:02:24

And what ended up being was awesome. So thank you for mentioning that. Hans is a great guy. Boy, what a fun episode that was.

01:02:30

Man, I enjoyed talking to David, such a wealth of knowledge and such a good brother. So thankful to have him on the show.

01:02:36

And I want to thank you for watching the show. I'm encouraged to continue to see folks like you who are out there who are supporting the show, and I'm very grateful.

01:02:46

I want to also remind you that if you want to reach out to me, if you have a question, or if you have a comment about a show, or if you want to recommend maybe a new guest or a topic for me to deal with, you can go to KeithFoskey .com,

01:03:01

and you can send me an email directly through the website. I want to remind you also, if you enjoyed this show, please hit the thumbs up button, and if you didn't, hit the thumbs down button twice.

01:03:10

Thank you for listening to your Calvinist podcast. My name is Keith Foskey, and I've been your Calvinist.