November 16, 2004

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

Reflections on the Debate and Why Tone Matters

Well, welcome to the dividing line. We are back and we are live on this Tuesday morning the 16th of November I have no idea where September and October and the first half of November went but it's gone and We are only a matter of weeks from the end of 2004 and Tell you if it keeps going this fast.

I'm going to be 92 next week. It's just absolutely positively. Unbelievable how fast time can go. I was just looking at the front page was just informed that The redoubtable unicle man had just finished doing some changes to the Website we'll have a different picture up eventually to have probably like have the pic the picture of the ship we're actually going to be on and But please note there have been some changes in regards to the next cruise the Alaska cruise.

Everybody's going to Alaska. I discovered that Not only is our sea sprawl going to Alaska next summer But so is stand to reason they're going to Alaska next summer and we're going to Alaska that's where everybody wants to go but I've noticed that Since everybody else is going with this particular company all their prices are like double hours Defension that I don't want to sound like mm-hmm.

We're competing or anything But you just put our rates up against their rates and somebody's. Well we're we of course are blessed we have people who arrange our debates who Actually want to go on them and do so as a ministry and therefore.

That's where the difference lies partially so anyway The the details this one are going to be absolutely amazing we got to see a video of What we're going to be doing. I felt a little uncomfortable that we're sitting there on a on a Royal Caribbean ship.

And we're playing a princess video Expecting to see people walking in you know with their arms crossed staring at us very very angrily, but anyway We had a great time. I've got a bunch of stuff to catch up on here obviously We need to talk about the debate the conference the cruise and then of course right now the the big thing Apologetically going on is the the recent Visit to Salt Lake City all the stuff going on with Mormonism Ravi Zacharias is appearance at the Mormon tabernacle.

I've been at the tabernacle to this didn't let me talk I Had to stand outside them, but Clark Pinnock being on BYU radio and all this wild and crazy stuff that's going on and the things about it. So we have lots of stuff, and then I have a tape that I finally got hold of that was from 1995.

It's an older tape, but it is Tim Staples interviewing a convert to Catholicism from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and it's difficult to listen to not because the sound quality. It's just difficult to listen to.

And.

So well we'll be listening to that over the course of a couple of different dividing lines so lots of stuff to do. Let's say go ahead and get to it. Obviously the big thing. Do we have the. We don't have the mp3s up yet?

Do we. I didn't know if actually I mean.

I'm anticipating having the DVDs the CDs and the mp3s all up tomorrow morning. Tomorrow morning, okay?

So the debates the debate and that's just the debate. That's not the conference but those of you who have been beating down the doors to get hold of the DVD or CDs or mp3s of the debate we hope to have them up very quickly.

I.

Would actually if you have the choice I? Would actually suggest the DVD not because it costs more but the reason that I would suggest that is simply because there were some How would I say? Visual moments.

There was some of the some of the comments, and there was there's some humor. I expected that there was going to be some humor there a couple of little zingers here there and everywhere. From both sides during the course the debate you'd expect that with Doug Wilson.

He has Written a book on the use of sarcasm. And he likes to use humor and and so there were a few little zingers here there. And it I don't know. I just sort of figure you'll have a little more accurate.

Gauge of.

The tenor of the debate if you have the DVD rather than if you if you listen just to the mp3s. It'll be interesting to me to listen to People's reactions who either watch it or listen to it. That that is a constant variable.

You know I frequently try to remind myself to ask people when they're asking me about debate. When you know well someone so say I didn't feel you treated such a person well. And I'll say how did you how'd you listen to it?

How did you did you listen to it? Did you watch it? How were you exposed that particular debate and it's interesting? Basically I have found that people who who listen. It is easier to insert certain attitudes into just the vocal Element that is watching it and listening to at the same time.

That's just been my that's that's been my reaction to it. Maybe I could be wrong about that, but anyway, that's that's how it's how it seems to me.

Well my impression would be to describe Doug Wilson in this way that he He has quite the sense of humor. But I think a lot of folks who just read his sense of humor or listen to it Miss out on half of the humor because his facial expressions when he delivers.

Yeah, he easily could have been a good comedian. I think.

Well, that'll get thrown all over the place now. Rich Pearce says the pastor Wilson's a comedian.

He has he has excellent timing. I mean there's no question about it. And he I think the audience appreciated him for it, and you did.

But see I couldn't see his face when he was when he was making the joke.

I had a close-up of him and It's it's funny. Well.

Mike just mentioned in channel. He says I wonder what my facial expressions were during certain comments. Just yesterday when I was just watching that little thing that I made the comment. I said it looks like Mike's dead.

Propped up there. He's not moving. It's just absolutely still during the entire. I don't know I I don't know. It's about 45 seconds a minute of we're just looking something on the on the tape, and I said look at Mike.

He hasn't moved at all just kind of frozen. He's just.

Chosen right there. It was really funny, but anyway It'll be interesting to see how people respond to it. I haven't seen much of response right now. I I mentioned on the blog that while I was on the ship, and I'm paying 50 cents per minute of internet time I Briefly ran by some comments that were posted myself of course you'd expect certain people for example the one man The uber scholar the man who?

Believes there's never been a more intelligent man than himself on who has ever lived on this planet. He of course you know had various and sundry nasty comments to make secondhand nothing unusual about that, but there really hasn't been much in the way of comments as As to this point and so once we get the DVDs out there and things like that then there will be There'll be more to comment on there.

Yeah, people ask me. How do you think it went well? I think it went as well as I want it to go as far as what I want to try to accomplish people when you when you go into a debate you have certain goals that you want to try to to get to and One of the problems is people coming to a debate.

They have certain goals for you as well. And if your goals and their goals are not the same thing then that's how they're going to judge. How you did even if that's not how what you want to accomplish?

My biggest concern was that this debate would only confuse the issue even more there's so much Confusion about this subject out there that one of my biggest fears my two biggest fears were a it was going to add the confusion not help to clarify anything and B it wasn't going to be on the topic that I wanted to be on.

I mean I knew that there were other topics there there clearly other issues that are relevant to this that are actually in some ways, maybe even foundational to this and I was happy with the debate because the fact that a person who wants to understand Who isn't just absolutely intent upon?

Misrepresenting Douglas Wilson and there are for some reason a bunch of folks who want to do that. I saw another statement just recently that says just.

I.

Just don't know why people can't get the clue and get it right they can't. They can't accurately represent the fact that you know there are people in this federal vision movement that believe things differently than others.

I mean, that's like that's like painting OPC and conservative PCA people with what the PC USA does that's that's just not fair. Why is it that people can't do that? This is a this isn't a tightening tightly knit group as far as certain of their beliefs.

And and I was reading a statement made by some Presbytery someplace. That just baldly asserts that all federal visionists Deny the imputation the righteousness of Christ or at least the act of obedience Christ.

Well Norman Shepard does he denies the imputation of the act of obedience Christ. But Douglas Wilson doesn't so you've got to differentiate between those two you know I mean, that's that's just all there is to it so anyway.

Somebody coming to that debate who does not want who's just not absolutely insistent upon Misrepresenting Douglas Wilson or myself. I've got people who do the exact same thing with me pretty much the people at reform Catholicism calm or experts that.

As long as it's not those folks I honestly believe that they would have a clear idea of. Exactly, what's at stake and? Those more fundamental issues those foundational issues did come out they were addressed.

Obviously they were addressed you know in 90 seconds. Which you know anybody who thinks that well? I'm gonna judge this debate on the basis of a 30-second response. Yeah, I can't worry about people like that a serious minded person wants to go.

I want to understand what's being said. I want to understand what the positions are. I want to hear them interact with another and I Want to see some of the confusion removed that that was accomplished.

And that's that was my first goal was to hope to really make a clear contrast between the two Perspectives at one of the places where I thought it was it was very clear. Pastor Elliot some of you may recall him from The Staples debate long long ago the man with the the deep deep accent.

I just love Listening to. I mean Don't worry. Don't worry folks. I'm not gonna do that right now a Scottish brogue. Well see I did I can't help but do it. I'm Scottish for crying out loud. I've got to be able to speak it.

He.

It was so funny how many people in the audience started laughing when I said something about an accent and I think only half of knew why they were laughing and the other half were the channel rats. It's funny.

So anyway he gets up, and he asked us this this wonderful question and Wilson's response was Was very much Illustrative because basically he said when John Knox stands before the Queen and He does not call her sister.

He calls her to repent and Believe and of course Wilson's response sounded real good for a second anyways. I'll be perfectly honest with you. He says yes, but he didn't say repent Believe and be baptized.

And of course what he's going back to there is the fact that these folks The Anabaptist issue was very very very much on the minds of Everybody and there was a bunch of other stuff tied in with that a bunch of other stuff that has nothing to do with our Debate nothing to do with the nature of the New Covenant nothing to do with the biblical stuff.

It has a lot to do with the culture and politics to be perfectly honest with you. But to say but to just simply respond to what he had said About here is a man who's calling this person who's a Roman Catholic to faith in Christ.

And respond. Oh, yes, he said repent and believe but don't we didn't say repent believe and be baptized.

And.

You see that that at least Illustrated what I was trying to say and that is no matter how hard you you you try to get out of it the term Christian and brother and sister in Christ from Pastor Wilson's perspective our terms defined without Reference to the gospel without reference to regeneration without reference to salvific union with Christ.

They are they are defined by other things than the gospel itself and and that at least and Interestingly enough while I don't think most of the people who hold the federal vision would have been overly moved in their perspective.

I Did talk to a number of former Roman Catholics and the former Roman Catholics Just couldn't wrap themselves around what in the world Doug Wilson was saying. At least the ones I talked to okay. They're just like he doesn't understand.

He doesn't understand the the the huge leap. The vast difference the completely different commitment here he doesn't he doesn't understand it and they just couldn't understand how he couldn't see the the importance of that so.

It was I think there could be a lot of folks are gonna be very disappointed in the debate because at the end There were not pools of blood on the floor. It seems some folks wanted. For whatever reasons maybe because they've had bad experiences in the past with with Doug Wilson or whatever they wanted pools of blood on the floor and I don't know why they thought that I would be the type of person would do that you know.

People all the time are talking about how hard-nosed I am. Has anybody ever actually listened to my debates with Mitch Pacwa. I mean, I know you know I know some people have have said it's not fair that I debate Mitch Pacwa because he's he's just not Nasty enough to deal with me.

Well. I've never been nasty with Mitch Pacwa. There's there's nothing there. Listen listen to Robertson Janice in the mass debate just dripping acid. Just just treating me like dirt. I didn't respond to him in that way.

I.

Mean I.

Don't you know? There's there's just a this this persona, but the persona doesn't match the reality and so I Think people were hoping that somehow there would be this rhetorical.

Smackdown of.

Of Doug Wilson, and that's that's not that's not who I am. That's not how if anybody had listened to the debate from 1995 on pedo-baptism with Robert Strimple and Gary Johnson from many moons ago They would know that.

That's not how it was going to happen.

Okay.

So that's just that's just all there is to it and so there was it was. I considered this an intercollegiate debate. I was not standing there saying this man's going to hell in a handbasket. Because we disagree on these particular issues and.

So anyway I Someone I need to mention this a Roman Catholic and channel was just. Who wasn't there doesn't seem to understand? And it's being corrected right now, but let me just mention it.

I.

Guess at one point. I do recall somewhat.

I.

Pointed out. I would not call One of the apostates or at one of the Antichrist in 1st John chapter 2. My brother sister in Christ what I was talking about is 1st John 2 19 where they went out from us so it might be demonstrated that they were not truly of us and My point was that these were people who were baptized they were in The fellowship of the church they were in the visible church.

But they went out from the fellowship and according to John they went out the fellowship to Demonstrate that they were not truly of us and so the us is defined by John as the elect they were not of those who are who I've been forgiven of their sins which according to Hebrews chapter 8 is the new covenant and I said I would not call on the Antichrist my brother.

I'll not call one of those people who went out From the fellowship who denied the incarnation of Christ denied the physical body of Christ. This is what the Antichrist were doing in 1st John chapter 2.

I would not call that person my brother and sister Christ, even if they had been baptized. And you know that just made me think of a question I should have asked. What I should have asked is here is an example of someone who was in the fellowship of the church and they left.

Here's someone who made a profession of believing the truth and now they have apostatized they have left. Would you call that person even though they they've been properly baptized, but now they have left.

Would you call them a brother sister in Christ? When do you stop doing that? That does formal church discipline have to take place for that to happen because you'd assume formal church discipline had taken place in regards to the to the Antichrist so anyway so just an answer to The discussion that I saw a Roman Catholic and channel going well ouch boy.

You know just make me equal with the the Antichrist. Well, we're talking about the issue of apostasy in 1st John chapter 2 and I'm not sure why even though this Roman Catholic in our channel has heard me address this many many times.

Why it always seems somewhat odd to this individual that I believe that Rome's false gospel Doesn't save. There can't be multiple Gospels that save. It's just just not possible and I don't believe Rome's gospel brings salvation.

So a person holding to that false gospel is a person who needs the truth. They need to hear about the real gospel. Because there aren't multiple gospels that save so that's something I've mentioned many times for anyway, so We I had I had nice conversations with with pastor Wilson.

We didn't there was there just wasn't the blood left on the floor and there's gonna be some folks who.

You know, huh?

Just you were just too nice to him or that of that of that. There's nothing I can I Can possibly do about that the next day? We had a conference and I was truly Impressed. I was truly.

Encouraged.

By the people. Let's see to do to do to do to do to do to do to do. Reading something just came in. Okay, that tells me that tells me something. Anyway, I was I was truly Impressed by the people that were there.

I mean they they were diehards. It was a long day. Let's let's face it. We went from 845 in the morning Brief lunch break and I got done Right around 4 10 or so. That's a long day.

Of.

Presentations David King started off. I did the PowerPoint the thing for for him and we had all sorts of. Lots of lots of quotes information and then Tom Askell spoke on the issue of.

Imputation.

And.

Then Steve camp spoke and Eric Svensson spoke. Eric Svensson, by the way, rich has a much cooler clicker than I do. He has a super duper USB port clicker thing that's that that allows you to do PowerPoint go backwards forwards and all sorts of neat stuff like that had a long range and It was just plug-in plug-and-play for XP and I'm I'm experiencing Techno envy big time on that so we need to find out from Eric where he got that because that was really really really really useful and It worked really really really well because he was a long ways away from my computer and yet he was still going backwards and forwards and able to do all sorts of neat stuff like that and So we just need to keep that in mind.

Anyway. He had an excellent presentation. He had told me before he went up there that there were Roman Catholics at the conference and that they had started trying to argue with him at his table and I knew there was one of them in the second row.

He had pointed one of them out in the second row So it almost seemed like they wanted to be right down front, you know sort of you know, was there an intimidation thing there? Don't know but I know that after the conference I was Talking with other folks and missed a Roman Catholic who just went after Michael Fallon and some other folks who are former Roman Catholics and became nasty.

Use profanity, which is nothing new and talking with a lot of Roman Catholics to be perfectly honest with you and Then ended by walking away going yeah, yeah, yeah. That I would like You know, you didn't hear about that.

Yeah that I would like to like The yeah, yeah, yeah.

So.

It was I Would I would really really really like to have To have seen that like to have been involved with that actually and and had the opportunity Talking to that person. So I'm watching Michael Fallon comment upon this in the channel at the same time.

So anyway, I just sort of wrapped things up at the end because God bless them a couple of our speakers just really felt the spirit moving and Wrap up on time. And so it just kept getting later and later in the day and and it's really good that I had sort of predicted that and so I didn't have a.

Firm.

Outline that I just I couldn't cut anything out, you know. Sometimes you have a presentation and man if you just uncover all that none of its can make any sense didn't have that I had already decided that I wanted to try to grab From everybody else's presentation and and maybe amplify some things comment on some things be a little bit more on the Easy going side and in wrapping things up and that's what I did.

And that's how we were able to get out of there even though they're already setting up tables and you know when you're in a place like The LAX Gateway Sheraton there at in Los Angeles. They're on they're on a schedule and you better get done or they're just gonna start moving you out of the way anyway, so we managed to wrap things up, but at the the proper time and If you were there, and by the way, it was so neat to get to meet so many folks that You know, we keep mentioning the channel people on the cruise could probably get sick and tired of hearing about the channel.

Well, you know, I'm sorry, but the channel is a family. There are people in the I mean when certain folks disappear from the channel for a while. We're on the phone trying to find out what's going on.

Okay, and It's a family there. There have been times when people the channel have lost their job. And the people in the channel take a collection that send it to them. I mean, that's just what it's like.

It's not a church. It can't be a church, but it has aspects of Christian fellowship in it. That would be like a church and oh Thanks for not shooting me as you walk to the elevator at the end of the conference on Saturday.

Any idea. You'd have to remind me a little more than that because I met all sorts of folks and but anyways It was it was really neat getting to meet some folks that I've known in channel forever. I mean, I met someone from the channel that I've known 98 maybe since 1998 or so never met the person.

All sorts of folks in the LA area that was that was really really really neat to get to meet everybody and of course if you were there if you're listening and you were there or You're gonna get the the CDs the DVDs because remember we record that too.

You were very sleepy. Yeah, I imagine by that time the day I was Keep in mind this didn't just This didn't just happen. I mean there was a tremendous amount of work that went into this and I can't name everybody who was involved, but obviously the three people that were at the head of things were of course rich Paris that voice and the laughter in the background things like that and Michael Fallon and Simon Escobedo they they were sort of at the top of the ladder, and then they had all sorts of folks like Rusty and Christina and Chewy my my wife was was involved the Janka's were involved Jim Broyles came over the Warren and Olivia Smith were there.

There were just I mean I kept joking with people that like Half the well and I have a third of the popular population. What am I talking about a third of the membership of the phoenix reform Baptist Church was there?

The the Pierce's were there and I I think mrs. Broyles would have been there too if she was not about to give birth. So I mean it must have been really quiet at church. So it was there just folks everywhere my my daughter was even helped out to Steve camp at his table and It was just it was a a family affair.

It was a group effort To get everything done there and of course the day of the summer was signing autographs. She was she really was there people asked her to ask her to sign some of my books. It was very very funny.

So anyways On the conference day we had These black Alpha and Omega shirts for both the guys and the gals that were volunteering and man When Eddie Dalkour puts on a a black shirt, he's scary-looking and So it was it was really great to see everything came together and You know all this stuff and it was it was wonderful.

So we we had a great time learned a lot about how to Put on a conference learned a lot about dealing with with hotels and tickets and you know, there's You learn from everything, you know, you you learn How to do stuff more effectively and more efficiently and and You know, this is our first time around I think we did very very very well For the first shot and we will probably You know be able to improve From our experience.

That's just you know, that's just how it is. So but setting it up someplace other than where you're headquartered. That's not easy to do.

The Conference, the Speakers, and the Meaning of Imputation

So.

What's.

It was it was great. So I'm very very thankful for that. I really we got a lot of good positive response from it and that of course the whole reason you do it is. You want to try to encourage people of God and I think that the presentations were made Touched on everything.

I really enjoyed Phil Johnson's presentation on nt, right? Phil teaches a lot like I do. That's very similar. If you listen to the mp3s of what I did on nt, right? Last year and then listen to what Phil did this year at ours.

His of course was briefer because I had three four hours. He had one hour. And he was rushing a little bit to get into his one hour but still Very many of the exact same points exact same quotes that I had given and it's neat to see that it's neat to to.

You know, we didn't work together out. We didn't communicate with one another yet. We're coming the exact same Conclusions and seeing the exact same things quoting the exact same things. There's confirmation in in a situation like that and of course, the only thing is and you can see the on the website.

I.

Put a picture of the speakers from the ship. Tom Askew wasn't able to go with us. Eric Svensson is not there, but you can see Phil myself David King and Steve camp on the main page of Ailman org yet right now.

Just down under 1115. Well, it's everything is under 1115 right now, I guess and you'll notice poor Phil only has striped eyes. They're some of them are colorful the one the picture isn't overly colorful, but he only has striped ties.

And so I didn't get a chance to talk to him because once we got on the cruise. When we were in Puerto Vallarta, he had to leave yet need to get back to for a ministry reasons. We had to fly out from there.

And so I in fact I end up taking his speaking spot. But I really needed to I wanted to get a chance to talk to him about the fact that he need us to provide him. With some, you know, some some Rush Limbaugh ties some fractal ties some some of my Coogee ties I could help him to find them on on eBay, you know, but the striped tie thing, you know I mean you can only have so many striped ties.

That's just that's just that's that you know, yeah Kevin channels going. What's a tie? I mean if you want to see a nice Rush Limbaugh tie. The picture of myself and my wife and my daughter at at dinner.

That's one of my favorite Rush ties. That's a gorgeous Rush Limbaugh tie goes well with a blue shirt, too and That you know, but but Phil just has these striped ties and so it's it's it's sort of sad.

So anyhow, we we had a great conference. We got on the boat the boat and the ship 77 ,000 tons is a ship. This is the largest ship we had been on. It was without a question One of the one of the prettiest ships we've been on and Without question.

It was the smoothest sailing ship we have ever been on. I've been on six cruises now I've been on the imagination the paradise the Mercury the Volendam the Zondam and now the vision of the seas and Without question.

I mean I didn't even have I didn't even develop sea legs to where when I come home. You still feel the world moving it was so.

Smooth.

Even we started getting some moderate seas. We started having some white caps, man. We're on the Zondam. We are rocking and rolling in the white caps. Nothing. I mean it a Little bit around nine o 'clock on Saturday night.

There was a little little more movement than there have been the rest of the week, but it was smooth as glass. So I can say on that level if that's an issue for you. The vision of the seas might be a ship.

You might want to consider because it was Absolutely as smooth as could be and I was in an outside cabin. And if you think about the movement of a ship Obviously if you want the least movement you want to be Inside and toward the middle of the axis of movement.

And.

So it was really really really really good and so anyway. The ship was beautiful. I spoke four times as far as formal presentations each night we have these theology talks and. They really developed out of a bunch of people getting together and just having all sorts of conversations.

Theological conversations. Yeah, and sometimes I'll be honest. You can't force that. I mean sometimes that just develops. The first two nights of the theology talks were basically presentations on my part, too.

As long as I'm there I sort of kill him. There's the second night for example Phil Johnson was supposed to be leading it, but he just interviewed me. And I like the questions. Yes. They were good questions.

And they were fun and people wanted to get answers to some of those questions about. Debates and what I knew about people like gerrymanitics and things like that. But the first two nights were basically me and so I absent myself from some of them.

Just so that people can talk. If I'm there they're not going to if I'm there it's gonna be a Q &A. That's just that's just fact cannot be disputed cannot be debated and. So that takes place after dinner toward the evening.

But there were presentations primarily while we were at.

Sea.

When we're in port we let you know people want to get off the boat except for me. I don't get off the boat. I'm a little bit odd on that level. But people want to get off the boat and go do stuff. They want to go jet ski.

And they want to go shopping and they want to go. Like my family in Puerto Vallarta did from their their their perspective the Single best excursion they had ever had. 65 bucks a person. They went on this pirate ship thing and they said it Everything was absolutely a number one perfect.

They had the most incredible food and it was exciting All the time. And They just they just could not stop talking about this said it was the best excursion it ever ever had and they almost canceled it, too.

But people when they're in port want to go do stuff. So we generally don't have presentations. I've heard that this other company that exists out there Forces the speakers to do presentations while they're in port and they'll have four people there.

You know.

Why in the world make the poor speaker work if you have four people there. I suppose you can make tapes or something. I don't know but anyway. So the first presentation that I did while we were at sea on the way out was on the relationship of the doctrine of sin to justification.

If you really believed in total depravity a Large portion of the errors concerning justification would disappear. On the way back I needed to take Phil Johnson's place in his speaking and so I did a Presentation on the Basically giving an overview of All the current not really all but the majority of the current Controversies on the subject of justification.

And then I to take Phil's place. I sort of looked at my laptop and I did a PowerPoint presentation. I had only done it once before at a church in Dallas or somewhere in Texas. I forget where it was.