Nelson Price, Jerry Vines and Pierre the Mormon

The Program Opens and the Host Introduces the Topic

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 4602 or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James white.

And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line. Got a little early start there. Do you know. So we got a little early start there. We're about 20 seconds early the clocks off. I just checked the atomic clock on on mine and and.

Hey, I sync that up before, you know on the internet thing. You know the clock kind of sort of thing there, but it didn't work. I synced it up just before we started. So I don't get it didn't work. So which one is truly correct or is the Internet 20 seconds behind?

It's the Internet's 20 seconds behind, you know global warming could cause that that's yeah. Line one's been ringing for quite some time. By the way, I just thought I'd let you know that hey. It's the professional guys on the radio.

Never let you know that they're flying by the seat of their pants and that's. That's what makes the dividing line the dividing line you think after doing this I I we need to go back and find out when the very first dividing line was it was sometime.

I Was well before 86, so we've been doing this for over 20 years with some breaks. But we've been doing this for a long long time now, and we haven't gotten much. I don't think there's a whole lot of I don't think you have to worry about us becoming a stuffy Professional sounding webcast at all because that's just it's not our not our thing.

Why Fairness Matters in Representing Calvinism

But anyway, I Was just sort of looking around at my various RSS feeds and I saw a note from Tom Askew on the founders blog and He was talking about an article and I I clicked over to the to the article and.

And.

Entitled evangelical Calvinism is an oxymoron by a fellow by the name of Nelson Price out of Marietta, Georgia. And I read the article and I was duly unimpressed. I mean I Don't know how many times we have to repeat the same thing and and that is that that one side tilts at straw man and Does not even attempt.

Any type of fairness or accuracy does not From my perspective does not have any concept of what it means to honor the truth. These folks are the very same folks that Spell Mormon mor man, and I'm serious.

They are they're the ones who who will accept any kind of Apologetic literature as long as it's supportive of their position whether it's good literature or bad. They are the folks who who allow the folks who write bad books about Mormonism or Roman Catholicism or Jehovah's Witnesses to write bad books about these things because they're the ones who buy them because they don't have any concept of the idea that you have to bind yourself to the highest standard in your representation even of those who will engage in falsehood or By if you refuse to do so you are betraying the truth.

If you you if you will use one standard for the defense the truth and Another standard elsewhere you're being a hypocrite. It's just it's not. Being obedient to the command of Christ to to be the two to follow after him.

Who is the truth you you're not honoring the truth when you're using double standards and and this? Obviously is very important apologetically we've talked about it many times. We've talked about people who who will write things and when when you hold to at least major elements the truth.

But you use horrible argumentation against the other side. Examples farms Foundation for ancient research and Mormon studies out of BYU what they love to fill their publications with but examples of.

Where.

Conservative evangelical even fundamentalistic Christians.

Will.

Basically believe anything about the history of Mormonism is on as it reflects badly on Mormonism. And then they can come along they blow that away. They demonstrate. That's foolishness. That's silliness and That becomes their apologetic now does that mean they've actually responded in a meaningful fashion to the Real critiques of their system of course not.

But that's how they sell books, that's how they make themselves look like they're actually providing a response and A lot of folks will hear us on that and go hey, yeah There's there's an example of where we need to you know utilize the proper Standards and be very fair etc etc etc.

But when it comes to this issue All of a sudden the issue of reformed theology all of a sudden all bets are off and all we are hearing is a drumbeat of Falsehood a drumbeat of falsehood. I have queued up as I promised the Jerry Vine sermon from first Baptist Church Woodstock and We'll get to it But I'm looking through my RSS feeds, and I'm reading about this Paul Nelson guy and then I follow that over to another article and here lo and behold Nelson Price, I'm sorry Paul Nelson who in the world's that I don't know was he and I dream of Jeannie I forget who that was the major there Major Nelson it was major Nelson wise don't Tony Tony, but that's not like that.

I don't remember I ran across that recently way up at those high-end cable 88 or you know whatever it is you know you're really old and he's got cable now folks yeah There's all kinds of channels here where where'd they get all this.

I saw Gilligan's Island recently is like yes I have a picture of me with Gilligan his hat and everything. Yeah, it says when he was actually still living, but anyway Boy talk about getting off track there.

Yeah fell right off the side. Let's put this thing back on the track him so Nelson Price Who wrote this horrible little article? This just filled with with straw men and and and.

Stuff.

Just preached guess where at First Baptist Church Woodstock now Why would you have Jerry Vines and then one month later? Nelson Price and both of them clearly have been asked to attack Calvinism is is is First Baptist under assault from from a from a huge wave of reformed theology or is First Baptist just trying to take the lead in Attacking With without the a scintilla of accuracy or or concern for the truth Reformed theology is that exists in in reformed? churches and amongst Southern Baptists who take the time to actually read their founding documents and You know it must be a terrible thing when when these founding documents be they're put on the internet.

Because then people can go like you know use Google and find out that hey You know what Southern Baptists used to believe something differently I mean they even talked about the errors of Arminianism, and they talked about Particular redemption and wow how this ever happened because we know Baptists don't believe that because brother Johnny Hunt told us so what what's going on don't know but just before the program I Was recording some of this sermon from First Baptist I just want to play it just four sections from this then go back to vines because in reality vines sounds good in Comparison to this, but they're both preached in the same pulpit.

Now I would like to think that the result of that would be there's all these discerning people sitting out there in this massive church and They're going hey wait a minute. That's not what the other guys said wait a minute the other guy was much more careful.

But wait unfortunately, I don't know that that's the normative response For many people when this kind of preaching takes place, so I want to play some of these these clips from Nelson Price and.

Again.

You say yeah, we heard this of Dave Hunt once too. Well there does seem to be this like I said. There's a template. There's here's here's the things you say the first thing for example. One side Approaches the issue of the atonement and by the way this sort of feeds into something.

I want to remind you of Next October when we do our cruise, and I know October sounds like a long ways away right now. But could I mention something just really quickly to those of I've been hearing from a lot of folks.

And there's a lot of excitement about the class slash cruise next October and as well there should be and You're you've got to be pretty odd if you're excited about Spending four hours a day in class with me.

But you know what it would cost you more I think to especially for credit to to take a class like that through Seminary then it would the way we're doing it and you get wonderful food, and you get to sail in the inside passage up there in British Columbia, so One thing I want to mention I know it sounds like it's a long long long long long long time from now.

But there's there's something really basic and fundamental you need to understand here. We have to reserve What's called in the industry inventory in other words cabins space and? The cruise line wants to make sure that that ship is filled with people when it leaves.

That's how they make their money and So there's all sorts of people. Oh, man. We are so on next year boy. We oh yeah. The problem is you only have so long before you either have to pay for your inventory or give up your inventory.

I Really really really really really want to have 400 people in our group on that ship. I really do I Want to have four people in our group. I want to have 200 cabins. I really do. There's no reason why that should not be a reality.

I mean that would be at least 200 people of that group in the class maybe more. Because I realize there's gonna be people who want to come, but they're they're just four hours of Seminary level lecture each day.

Just you know despite all the food and everything else just it's too much, but I want to have that many people there. Here's the point if you're gonna do it do it. Don't put it off. Make it a Christmas present yourself.

Whatever you got to do, but you need to do it now because time comes when we've got start giving up those cabins and.

The.

Availability goes away, so I'd want I'd slip my mind I want right off the bat to let let people know I know October We just got done with October and as you get older and older It's it just goes faster and faster start spinning really quickly, and so it's sort of like I you know don't have to worry about it.

No, there's only so much space and Now's the time to get the screamin deal, and what is it 50 bucks? I mean, that's not much to put down now the time to do it and Let's get it done, so what we're gonna be doing on that cruise however is Is an illustration of just why this type of thing that I'm about to play for you bothers me so much.

We're gonna be taking time to read entire books. We are gonna be taking the time before the cruise. We're reading entire books. We'll be looking at the apostolic preaching the cross for example one of the texts we're gonna be using and We're going to be dealing with issues like what?

Propitiation means what was the seat of atonement? What are the forms that are used of these of these terms we want to? Accurately handle the Word of God especially when it's touching upon such vital things as as the atoning work of Christ and.

So.

That's how we do things we're gonna be doing an entire four hours a day on this one subject the historicity and theology of the cross and so I Think that's one of the means not the only means. I mean you can do that.

And if you don't have passion, and if you don't let that touch your life Then you're dishonoring the truth, but I don't believe you can profess all the passion in the world. But if you don't have the personal discipline and concern for the truth.

To delve into these things God has given us such a rich revelation and people just ignore this look. Yeah, well whatever you know John 316. Yeah, that's all I really care about. That's not showing honor for the truth.

That's not even respecting the Holy Spirit. Who's given us the Word of God and preserved it for us and so. With all that in mind our side takes the time To listen to the objections and read the objectors and provide Responses and and do the lexical studies and all this stuff.

That's that's what we're all about. Listen as Dr. Price Presents evidently. You know all these people are going to hear on the nature of the atonement. Second point.

Unlimited Atonement and the Charge That Christ Died for All in the Same Way

Unlimited atonement. There are those today who is saying there is limited atonement. Christ's death on the cross is applicable only to those that God elects to take to heaven. That's a Spurious doctrine and that's referring to it with all grace and restraint.

But the very matter of unlimited atonement for whom did Jesus die? Let me share with you God's Word what it has to say about it. For example in 2nd Corinthians 5th chapter verses 14 and 15 one died for all first Timothy 4 10.

Who gave himself for all first Timothy 4 10 again? Who is the Savior of all men Hebrews 2 9. He by the grace of God might taste death for everyone First John 2 2. He himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but for all who believe John 1 29.

Behold.

The Lamb of God That takes away the sin of the world.

So there you have the quick run-through. Not a single verse is even quoted in its entirety. There is no even attempt made to define contexts to define the extent of all. Why doesn't all mean Satan and demons.

Well of course when we go into ah when we go into the Bible when we actually provide? A content when we actually get serious about this is that what we're is that we're saying yeah that that seems to be we're saying.

But just throw it out there. Show not the first recognition that. Every single one of the texts. I'm presenting there has been dutifully Honestly and in-depth addressed by people from the other side.

Don't even show the slightest familiarity or a desire to be familiar with what anybody else is saying. And That's supposed to be good and the result. Well listen to the result of that kind of rat-a-tat-tat a contextual.

Let's not get past a The most shallow understanding of a text type of presentation. Hang on to this. Don't run off and leave me before I finish it.

Technically sin is no longer the issue. Jesus took care of that. He died for all the sins of all the people of all the world. That does not mean all are saved. What it means is anybody can be saved. The issue is what will you do with Jesus Christ?

Now you can hear hopefully in that says as I'm moving using the wave Broadcast here, so it's nice and high quality. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right that over and over to get all the amening going on sin is no longer the issue folks.

Aren't you. Aren't you all glad.

About that.

Sins no longer the issue. And Christ died not to save anybody in particular. But just simply. Well isn't this exactly what Norman Geisler said. Isn't this what his seminary is putting out? What's the death of Christ for is to make man?

Savable. Not to save anybody but to make man savable depending upon what man does. There you go. Preaches real good until someone on the other side gets up and says excess. So what you're saying is savable.

Hypothetical and.

Do they ever wouldn't if you know if I held this viewpoint I? Would have feel such a a crushing weight. To consistently every time I've enunciated it give a response to the most pressing objections against what I've just said.

I Could not. I cannot begin to understand the mindset of someone who can not feel that pressure to give a response to Example at answering the question all right if what you're saying then is all sins been dealt with except for unbelief.

Isn't unbelief a sin and If these people are punished what are they gonna be punished for. Tell talk to me about crazy and in Bethsaida. How can there be any? gradations of punishment if sins no longer an issue.

Hitler was redeemed and How is that different in any way honestly from a story, I've told many times years and years ago when we had offices In a different location over on the Camelback Road. We would we had this one room where we had enough open space where we could have Meetings we could have a fairly small number of folks.

Maybe I don't know how many we might benefit fit 30 40 in there. Maybe sir crammed imagine that room out imagine. We did a seminar on the atonement once and a Roman Catholic fellow came an older Roman Catholic fellow traditionalist Catholic just virulent roar and During while I'm speaking I'm making statements about redemption.

He's going Mickey Mouse Mickey Mouse remember that remember the Mickey Mouse situation and Afterwards I sit down to talk to this guy, and he says you just don't get it. We've all been redeemed. But we haven't been forgiven that the redemption is because the death of Christ, and then we we receive those benefits through the sacraments.

See and so the the price been paid, but but we have to obtain that through what we do in regards to the sacraments and.

I.

Remember going to Ephesians chapter 1 where Paul uses construction where he talks about Redemption that is the forgiveness of our sins that is it's it's identification. It's as Mickey Mouse. That's Mickey Mouse.

Is that what it says. That's a man you use. That's why you need the church. That's why you need church. Blah blah blah blah blah. Okay, how?

Can.

Price.

Argue against that. What on what basis? Can Nelson Price? Argue against that viewpoint of a Roman Catholic because they both agree on the hypothetical nature of the atonement. That's what I've said many many times.

The argument that I present in the fatal flaw in regards to perfection of the atonement cannot be used by an Arminian and That is the argument against the mass and against the whole concept of Transplantation and sacrifice the mass the whole night north can't do it can't do it.

That they do not have a sufficiently Biblical consistent vigorous doctrine atonement to even be able to do that.

The Bus Stop Illustration and the Misrepresentation of Reformed Theology

Well.

You aren't going to expect. I would imagine that Nelson Price is going to define Calvinism overly. Accurately. And well, he didn't disappoint.

God doesn't want anybody to perish. Spiritually die second Peter three nine. He's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance underscore all First Timothy 2 for who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth.

Now I want to refer to this doctrine that is permeating certain congregations today, and I'm Presently ministering to church where it has come in and it is a doctrine called reformed theology sometimes called Calvinism.

It's known by a number of titles. It deals with such things as election for knowledge. Predestination. If you study your New Testament, you'll find that it teaches election. It's throughout the New Testament.

The issue is what does that mean? The confusion is over what is meant by election. The word election is used as a synonym for the word chose choose or chosen. What does it mean that God elects? Individuals to be saved it means this.

God had a will and In his will he gave you and me a free will. It's his will that all should be saved. But he's given us a free will and whether or not we are saved depends on how we respond to him. So election doesn't mean God says I like you and I don't like you.

I want you in but I don't like you.

Again you're almost left speechless at this kind of a contextual Isagetical throw pull something out of the air don't bother giving a foundation don't bother saying and I get this from this particular here is the consistent lexicographical information that demonstrates that my use of Eclectus kaleo, whatever it did, you know put it in a context someplace.

Here's where in this text. This is where election means that God in his sovereignty. Gave man a free will please pull that one up out of Ephesians 1 for me, please. Let's could we could could any would any of these people even try to do?

What I did in my Sunday school class over the past number of weeks. We went through Romans 9 and and you you can spend a lot of time if you're actually letting the text speak. Digging into what's there?

They don't they don't even make a connection there. Don't even don't even try. It is so frustrating to Recognize that this man is standing in front of thousands of people in a multi multi multi million dollar facility.

Television cameras this this stuff's available all across the world. And yeah, it is frustrating to sit here and to see that and to go why? Why is this shallow? Inaccurate stuff considered to be Worthy of all the a many going on the background it's just it's just.

There's no way to substantiate What was just said but that's not going to stop the amens in fact. He goes on with an illustration and it's got to be the worst illustration I've ever heard. I I almost feel compelled to write even though certainly.

You know.

I.

Just saw on channel the Johnny Hunt at the end of the sermon called the price a prince of a preacher. Oh great. Wonderful Spurgeon would have had just really some nasty things to say about what this fellow has said, but be it as it may.

I.

I.

Almost feel compelled to write though I'm sure other people have and so my email probably wouldn't even get a response but I feel compelled to write because I This this isn't even this isn't a matter of inaccuracy.

This is simple dishonesty. I mean, it's it's just it's that bad and Nelson Price may just Have never done enough serious study to even address this issue. And if he hasn't then he shouldn't be standing in front of people dressing it.

But you know, maybe he's just really really ignorant of this. I can't believe that's case. But this illustration use is is It just it crosses the line it's not it can't be excused it's dishonest it's it's completely wrong.

He may think it's accurate But he would have to be exceptionally ignorant think that was accurate. It's just that bad. I It's just it is hard to to well here. Listen to yourself. How about this? For example, all of mankind is standing the great bus stop.

It's called the late great planet Earth and here comes a bus. It's the eternal bus line. Right on the front of the bus. You see the sign that is there heaven bound. Bus pulls up door opens people standing all around.

Who is the driver? God himself. God says all entitled to get on get on. Come on, please. Please. But not you stand over here, please. Come on, you do you were you with the children wait over? I don't care if you say you profess Jesus.

I didn't choose you and you stand over there. I know you serve me as a missionary in a foreign country for all your life, but I didn't choose you. Those I've chosen come on board. Well, how about us? We want to get on board to catch the next bus.

Door closes. Next bus. Captured right over the front of the bus the hell-bound bus. Is that God. Is that the God of the New Testament?

No, and that has absolutely Positively nothing to do with anything even semi related to Reformed theology either. Unbelievable that is that when I made that clip I called it bus stop lie because it's a lie.

That there's no there's no reason to mince words here. Anyone who would knowingly and that's why I just have to assume that this this gentleman hasn't a clue what he's talking about. He's he's only listened to one side.

He's never read a single book representing the other position because if he did then he's lying and it's it's pure dishonesty. Pure dishonesty, and I don't want to believe that someone would stand in that pulpit and just lie.

That that blatantly just shocking to me. Where in the world do you get This kind of capricious Viewpoint of election where do you where in the world? Do you get this idea that there are people who want to go to heaven and God's saying no to them?

Is it not the most basic assertion of Reformed theology that there's nobody who wants to go there in the first place? There is no God seeker. We're all enemies of God. Is that not the most basic Assumption that's made right off the top.

That God has to take out the heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh. Isn't that the main objection? Norman Geisler gives that we have to be rewired by God. If that's the most basic objections there, how can you then turn around and ends go?

There's all these people that want to go to heaven and God's saying no. I don't you may have you make believe in Jesus. But I'm not taking anybody who but you know if you can believe in Jesus all you want.

But I that's only the people I choose the whole point of Reformed theology is the only people who truly believe in Jesus are the people that he has redeemed from the slavery of sin.

It's just.

It couldn't get any worse. They couldn't get worse. I mean, I'm a little surprised Dave Hunt hasn't picked that one up because it could not possibly get any worse than that and I just I.

I.

It is just so frustrating to hear that kind of gross caricaturization completely inaccurate completely wrong and I would like to think that there was someone there who went up to him afterwards and sir.

That's just that's just not that's that's not true. But I know how a lot of Southern Baptist churches work and people like that especially in a megachurch or.

A.

Pretty well protected, so I don't know what happened, but that is just so frustrating to To see that kind of thing. It's just terrible.

Returning to Jerry Vines and Total Depravity

So.

Just a gross gross gross Misrepresentation it needs to be viewed for exactly what it is. Just just just horrific. Well. I promised you some of the Jerry Vine sermons. So we need to we need to get to that and like I said in comparison to what we just heard.

Wow.

This this sounds like a scholarly treatise in comparison of what we just heard.

Anyway day.

Let's talk about these for just a moment. T total.

Depravity.

Now when we talk about total depravity we mean for the most part that that man is born with a sinful nature. Though man is not as bad or as sinful as depraved as he could be every facet of our being is stained and damaged by Sin.

Every area of our personality we believe has been touched by the stain of sin. Total depravity. Psalm 51 5 behold I was shaping an iniquity and in sin did my mother conceive me. Jeremiah 17 9 the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked now so far.

I think most of us would agree. If you've ever taken a look into your own heart I think you would agree with me that every area of our being has been touched and stained by sin. But now the Calvinists Go a step further than that.

When they talk about total depravity they mean something in addition to that. They mean total Inability. They mean not only is your will Touched by sin in every area your your personality is touched by sin in every area.

But that your will is dead and you are totally unable to respond.

Now quick correction obviously once again if if any of these folks would take time. Read Piper read Sproul. Read Calvin. Read somebody. Read something other than hunt and Geisler. They would know that we do not deny the existence of man's will we do not even to deny that man engages in spiritual activity but it is always as what as the slave of sin as the enemy of God and as a result as the Apostle Paul said in Romans chapter 8 What do you say.

Those from the flesh cannot Please God they cannot submit themselves to the law of God. And I would suggest to you that Arminianism and its various Less consistent forms as seen in dr. Vines and in many in the Southern Baptist Convention today cannot survive Without a very low view of God's law.

Can't survive a very low view of God's law. In other words that section Romans 8 cannot Submit itself to God's law. Well, why should we worry? We're not in law. We're under grace, right? Complete mixture of context.

Complete misunderstanding. Why should anyone it would be overly concerned about us submitting ourselves to God's law? Unless we want to live in a way that is pleasing to him and God has revealed.

The way that is pleasing to him. And they go to Ephesians chapter 2 verse 1 where it says and you have to Be quickened the word means made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins. They say man is spiritually dead and we know that is exactly what the Bible teaches.

Man is spiritually dead. And so they say man is spiritually dead therefore. How can a dead man repent? How can a dead man have faith so he has to be?

Regenerated and.

That's correct. Just as long as once again the misapprehension that that death means Inactivity rather than lack of true spiritual life. That's the balance that is frequently missed in these these Less than robust representations of the position that they are allegedly refuting.

He has to be born again.

He has to receive life before he can have faith. Now. This is very important right here in the Calvinist system. Regeneration Precedes faith. You have to be regenerated alive before you can exercise saving faith.

That brings up some interesting questions. For instance if you're born again before faith, what does faith accomplish?

How is that an objection. Because for example even in his own ordo salutis you would be born again before. Experiencing practical sanctification. So what does sanctification accomplish? I mean Sometimes you listen to these objections and you just you you again want to sit back and go.

Is anybody listening to this is.

Does.

Do these folks don't have someone they can run these things by the go, excuse me, but that that didn't know.

That's not a really valid. Is he asking? What does faith accomplish from the persons? I don't in other words. What is it that the person has done? I don't know in a backhanded way. I mean is he's seeing this as a work.

So what is your faith done? Because God did it all for you?

Maybe he'll explain which means then that if you are born again before faith. That means that by grace are you saved through faith? That means then if you're born again, you're born again before you're saved, huh?

Did I miss something there? Yeah, I think someone's a bit confused as to the position they're responding to here. I it's just difficult for me to think that someone who has actually sat down maybe with Piper Or sat down with Sproul and actually, you know wrestled with these things is the person I'm listening to.

Sounds to me like I'm listening to someone who Starts the presupposition these people are wrong. And so I'm gonna read what somebody else said about them that proves they're wrong. And therefore I'm gonna feign confusion because actually I am confused because I really don't know the original sources at all.

I know I'm just from the country, but.

Is in that in that a common one that that I'm hearing a lot amongst the Southern Baptist. I'm just from the country ways. I ain't one of them smart intellectual folks, you know.

And that's what this Calvinism is smart intellectual folks. I'm just from the country and I get it.

True, but it's it's used as a false Idea of humility. If you're gonna have true humility and your real point was I I don't feel adequate to address these things. Why are you staying in front of a couple thousand people doing it?

That's the big question that I would have to ask.

Now notice I Don't think this is what the Bible teaches. Let me give you a couple of scriptures which make it very clear Galatians 3.