Worship of the Lamb in Revelation

Here is James White. Hey, good morning. Welcome to The Dividing Line. On a Tuesday morning I've had a number of requests from folks for follow-ups and discussions on The Dividing Line and since I did want to write more on the brief article that I posted, I believe Friday night or Saturday, one of the two, I thought I'd go ahead and do that and take the opportunity of maybe doing a little discussion on the subject of dealing with Jehovah's Witnesses.

It has been quite some time since we have dealt with that particular issue. Certainly for me, having the opportunity last Friday afternoon to spend two and a half hours with a Jehovah's Witness elder in the home of one of the members of my church was a privilege, but it was also the first time that I had had that opportunity in many, many years.

They don't come by my house anymore. They go through the neighborhood, but they assiduously avoid my particular location for some odd reason, and that was the last time that we had had a conversation with them, was at my own doorstep, but it used to be something I did much more often.

I think part of the reason for that was at one time, being a part of a very large Southern Baptist Church, you had just more opportunities. I mean, they'd be coming across members of a very, very large church more often than a small church, and so you would have people who would contact you, and you'd have the opportunity of meeting with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Now, of course, the way that I approach it is not the way that I would suggest to everyone else. I have over the probably the past three or four times that I have met with Jehovah's Witnesses. What I have done is I've really just come straight out and said, this is who I am.

This is what I do. I teach for the Golden Gate Baptist Theological Seminary. I've taught Greek and Hebrew and Systematic Theology and Christology and Church History and so on and so forth, and I generally teach on the subject of apologetics, which means I have had to address your own beliefs many times.

Now, normally, that'll get your average Jehovah's Witness zipping up the book bag, if you've ever met with Jehovah's Witnesses. You know, they generally have a book bag with them. I have a book bag with me, too, in these encounters.

But generally, when you see them putting their New World Translation or the Kingdom in Linear or whatever into the book bag and zipping it up, that's pretty much the end of that. But what I do is I immediately follow up that introduction with, could I summarize for you what I understand the central elements of your faith to be?

And I've never had one say no. They're rather interested to see how well someone could summarize their faith, and so I go through, and I use their own language. You have to be a little bit careful about that.

There are Jehovah's Witnesses that are extremely skittish, and they take very, very seriously the society's command not to have anything to do with a former Jehovah's Witness. Now, I am NOT a former Jehovah's Witness.

I have never been associated with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society in any way, shape, or form. But I have had people accuse me of that. I remember very clearly being in one lady's house once, and these two witness ladies came in, and after a brief conversation, they were absolutely certain that I was a guy named Chuck Love.

Now, there was a guy in the Phoenix area. I have no idea where he is. I've never met him. At least, I don't think I ever met him. If I did meet him, I have no recollection of ever having met him. I've heard of him, though, named Chuck Love, who was a former Jehovah's Witness, and before I ever got involved with studying witnesses, it had some type of ministry in the area to Jehovah's Witnesses.

But I also heard he was rather wealthy, and I remember what was funny was that the car that I had driven to this meeting, this particular meeting, was a 1964 Dodge Dart, and initially, when I bought the car, no two body panels were the same color, but I had gotten the Earl Schaub paint job.

Rich's nose just curled up. Earl Schaub! Remember Earl Schaub? I don't know what I... I think I paid $99 for that paint job. $99! It was white because it didn't have air conditioning, and I live in Phoenix, and but it was bad, and you know, I mean, this was a funny-looking vehicle.

So, that's what's parked outside, and I even offered them my driver's license. You want to see my... I am NOT Chuck Love. What are you talking about? They were absolutely convinced. They figured I had faked the driver's license.

I drove around in the summer heat in Phoenix in a 1964 Dodge Dart without air conditioning just to fool them. So, some of them are really, really focused on this. Don't talk to former Jehovah's Witnesses, thanks.

So, when you use their language, you have to be careful, and in this conversation last Friday, I was, you know, I made it very clear that I have never been associated with the Watchtower Motor Vehicle Track Society in any way, shape, or form.

Someone just pulled up. Wonky just posted a link to the 1964 Dodge Dart in Channel, and that's... I wonder if it's... I wonder if it looks like... Yep, yep, yep. That's the 1964 Dodge Dart. Now, put that 64 Dodge Dart, put a big old black hood scoop on it, mags, and glass packs, and that's what I was driving.

Mine was a two-door. That's a four-door. That's right. Yeah, that's a four-door. Mine was a two-door, but, you know, still a 64 Dodge Dart. Everybody's ransacking the internet now looking for Dodge Darts, but anyway, hey, you can get up and go.

There was no question about that, and that was good because you had to have all the windows rolled down before the heat stroke killed you in July. Let me tell you something around here, but anyway, that's neither here nor there.

So, I made it very clear to him that I was not associated with this society, but I used their language, and I went through, and I gave as accurate, as clear, as full a summary of the central doctrines of the Watchtower Motor Vehicle Track Society as I possibly could.

There's a reason for this. It's two reasons. The functional reason is that, in my experience so far, every time I've done this, the individual witness with whom I was speaking was just simply blown away, and I, in essence, purchased for myself some time to speak before the barriers come up and the person's marching out the door, and it also shows for them, I think one of the reasons they're amazed is they're just not accustomed to encountering anybody who would study their faith and be able to represent it accurately without using deprecating terms and things like that, and so that's what I did.

I went through, and I gave the outline of their faith, and there's one God, Jehovah. The one thing he created directly was the master worker, Michael the Archangel, through whom all other things are created, and you know, went through what they believe about Jesus and the Holy Spirit and salvation and Jehovah's Organization and the 144 ,000 and the great crowd, and just sort of summarized the whole thing using their own language, and then I asked, so how's that?

He's sort of like, that's very good. You know, he was sort of amazed. Well, that gave me the opportunity to then, you know, start talking, and eventually he said, well, explain to me what you mean by the Trinity.

Oh, okay, be glad to, and so what I do in that situation is I go through the text that identified Jesus as Jehovah. Why would I do that and explain the Trinity? Well, because when I say to the witness, I want to give to the witness an explanation that they probably, they should, but they probably have not heard before.

I want to get some thoughts started. This man has been a Jehovah's Witness for 32 years. He has been going door-to-door for over three decades in the summer heat of Arizona, and believe me, he has heard it all before, and so I have to somehow get a thought process going here.

I have to get him hearing me for what I'm saying rather than what he's heard over and over and over again. That's what I'm trying to do, and so with Jehovah's Witnesses, and I even, I said this specifically, I said you'd have to agree with me.

You and I may argue back and forth as to whether Jesus is God or a God, but if Jesus is Yahweh, if Jesus is Jehovah, then the argument's over, and he agreed. The argument, if Jesus identifies Jehovah, then the argument would be over, and so what I've found is that most Jehovah's Witnesses find it somewhat useful if you, in essence, say, well, here's how I understand the Trinity.

There is one eternal God who is identified by that divine name Yahweh, and yet there are three distinct persons to whom that name is applied in Scripture. We cannot confuse the persons, and yet the one name that describes the being of God is applied to them.

That's why I'm forced to believe in the Trinity. So you'd agree with me that the Father is identified as Yahweh, as Jehovah in the New Testament, right? Well, of course. Well, where we disagree, or at least I think we disagree, is that the Son, likewise, is identified as Jehovah, and the Spirit is the Spirit of Jehovah.

Can I show you some texts where this takes place? Now, this meeting took place because the preceding Saturday, this gentleman had come up while out on service ministry, and a member of our church was working on some, laying some concrete, and had had a discussion with this man, and he had shared one of the two texts that I share with Jehovah's Witnesses identifying Jesus as Jehovah.

He had already shown him the John 12, 39 through 41, and Isaiah 6 passage, and so I went to the Psalm 102. I initially misidentified it as Psalm 110, but I went to Psalm 102, 25 to 27 passage, which is used in Hebrews chapter 1, verses 10 through 12.

And so, I went through very carefully, had, I read from the New World Translation, had him agree with me, this is very important, that what is being described in Psalm 102, when it talks about Yahweh as having an unchanging nature, and the creation will be changed like a garment, it'll be all rolled up because it ages, but his years are always the same, he does not change, that only Jehovah is unchangeable, that these are unique attributes, and then I went to Hebrews chapter 1, read that, and he never answered that.

What he did is he backtracked back to verse 9, and again, raised the whole issue of the Trinity, because, well, God, you're God, etc, etc. But he never dealt with, actually, really didn't deal with any of the texts that I, that I brought up, even though later in the, you know, two and a half hours, he was talking about how, you know, I hadn't convinced him of anything, but everybody who was watching knew that that really wasn't the case.

But anyway, so the conversation, that's how I started the conversation, and it, like I said, it gave me two and a half hours, you know, I've been in situations where I had 20 minutes, so two and a half hours is better than, better than nothing.

And as I said on, in the blog article, I would love to be able to report to you that this gentleman, you know, left the Watchtower Society and, and will be attending church next Sunday to be baptized or something.

That's generally not what happens with someone who has been in a religious movement for 32 years. It takes time. Everyone that I know of who has left the society for the proper reason, in other words, there's lots of people who leave Jehovah's Witnesses over time.

They just get burned out by the, the tight control and things like that. But they end up, they're religiously abused, the, the people who don't believe anything. Those who've left the society for the right reasons and have embraced faith in Christ will tell you that it's eventually, somewhere at the beginning of their journey, they ran into a Christian who actually knew their Bible and could respond to them.

Most Jehovah's Witnesses honestly believe there's nothing else to look at. If the society isn't it, there's nothing else to look into. Because there's nobody who knows the Bible well enough, etc, etc, etc.

So, it is an important thing to give a witness in that context and to demonstrate that the Bible does not teach what the society teaches. Now in the conversation, we talked about a number of things. I talked about a number of mistranslations in the New World Translation.

I went to the Carmen Christi. I always try to get to Philippians 2, 5 through 11 because I have seen that text really helped Jehovah's Witnesses to understand what it is we're talking about. Because I emphasized very strongly, notice what happens here.

Jesus makes himself of no reputation. He empties himself. This is something he does. And every time he'd try to deal with that text, he'd have Jehovah just sending Jesus. And I'm like, no, wait a minute.

You're talking about, this is Michael who's a spirit creature and now Jesus who has no spirit. But are you saying that Michael emptied himself or that Jehovah took the spirit Michael and created Jesus?

And he just could not deal with the reality of the fact that Jesus empties himself. That's a reflexive pronoun. This is something that the Son does. The Son has to be pre-existent, has to have that capacity and power to do this.

So, went through all of those. But the one thing I wanted to share, especially on the program today, was the one instance where we went to the book of Revelation. And as it had happened, I didn't mention this in our conversation, but I could not help but think of part of the cross-examination period that took place between myself and Greg Stafford back in 2003 in Tampa, Florida.

Now, let me give you the context here. Revelation chapters 4 and 5 present the heavenly scene. Let me remind you of what we have here. Beginning in Revelation 4 or 2,. And once I was in the Spirit, behold, a throne stood in heaven with one seated on the throne.

And he who sat there had the appearance of Jasper and Carnelian. And around the throne was a rainbow that had the appearance of an emerald. Around the throne were 24 elders and seated on the thrones were, I'm sorry, were 24 thrones.

And seated on the thrones were 24 elders clothed in white garments with golden crowns on their heads. From the throne came flashes of lightning and rumblings and peals of thunder. And before the throne were burning seven torches of fire, which are the seven spirits of God.

And before the throne there was as it were a sea of glass like crystal. And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures full of eyes, in front and behind, a preserving creature like a lion, so on and so forth.

It describes the living creatures. And notice it says,. And day and night they never ceased to say, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come. Again, a very similar picture to what we have in Isaiah chapter 6 from more than seven centuries earlier.

And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the 24 elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever.

They cast their crowns before the throne saying, Worthy are you, O Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you create all things, and by your will they existed and were created. Now, very clearly in this short chapter you have the continuous, never-ending worship of God upon his throne.

And so these 24 elders, they're falling down and they're worshiping him who lives forever and ever. And how is this worship expressed? Worthy are you to receive glory and honor and power, etc, etc. This is the heavenly worship.

Now, if that's all we have, and if there wasn't a controversy about the Trinity or the deed of Christ, something like that, there would never be any question about this. Anybody who would read this would go, Obviously, this is the worship of God in heaven.

But you see, the problem is we get into Revelation chapter 5, and the issue of the scroll with the seven seals comes up, and no one in heaven and earth is found who's worthy to open the scroll and to break the seals.

And John begins to weep, and verse 5 says, Well, the elders said to me, Weep no more. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and seven seals.

Now, keep Revelation 4 in mind, because that was, that's the immediate context. We're still in the same place. This is still the same throne. This is still the same scene. And ask yourself, What's going on in regards to the Lamb?

Notice it says, beginning verse 6, In between the throne and the four living creatures, and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out on all the earth.

And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and 24 elders fell down before the Lamb. Now, what had they done in the preceding chapter?

Just a few verses before this. Remember, these chapters, chapter divisions are all arbitrary. This could have just been one chapter, very easily. Chapter 4 is very short. There were no chapter divisions initially.

And so, this is one continuous stream. And so, we've seen the worship of God taking place. These elders are falling down. They're ascribing honor and glory. This is what the worship around the throne is.

But here, when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp and the golden bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song saying, Worthy are you to take the scroll and open its seals.

For you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. And you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.

Then I looked and I heard around the throne and living creatures and the elders, the voice of many angels, numbering myriads and myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.

You can't separate this from what came before. This is the same heavenly worship that he who sits upon the throne was receiving in chapter 4. And then notice, verse 13, and I heard every creature in heaven and on earth, every created thing, is the Greek term, every created thing, in heaven and earth and under the sea, under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, to him, ask yourself a question, listen here, to him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever.

Now, simple grammatical question, who, to whom, are these words said? To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb. It's right there in the text, and to the Lamb. There is a dual object, a dual object.

These words, to him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever, and the four living creatures said, amen, and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Now, there can be no question of what's going on here, and there can be no question of the object of the heavenly worship, is he who sits on the throne and the Lamb, who has been, in the preceding verse, by the way, removed from the realm of the created order, for all creation bows down and says these things, to he who sits on the throne and to the Lamb.

But when you're a Jehovah's Witness, the text isn't your final authority. The text isn't the final authority. Instead, you have this filter. Now, I'm thankful that the text is very plain. The text is very balanced.

There's no basis here for the oneness Pentecostals who try to identify the Father and the Son. The Lamb is not the one sitting on the throne. There's one who sits upon the throne, and there's the Lamb.

They are distinguished from one another, but they are both the objects of worship. There's only one true God. You've got all sorts of imbalances that you can grab here. You know, become the Mormons, become a polytheist, or, you know, deny the distinction of the Father and the Son, become one that's Pentecostal, but you have the balance of the text of Scripture itself.

When you talk to Jehovah's Witnesses, entire phrases can disappear off the page. You see, at one point, I asked this Jehovah's Witness elder, who are the elders worshiping in verse 14? And he said, the one who sits on the throne, period.

The Lamb has just disappeared. As soon as he said that, I didn't say it, but, ready for, play a clip for you here. Listen to this exchange that took place, let's see, not quite five years ago now. No, over five years.

It was December of 2003, so it's over five years ago now. This exchange took place during the cross-examination, myself and Greg Stafford. Verses 9 through 11, that is an act of worship. Chapter 4, verse 8, the term, who was and who is not there, because the term proskuneo is not used.

My point was that you made a point about the use of proskuneo in the context of those other actions being done towards the one seated on the throne, and then proceeded to make a parallel with the actions done towards the Lamb in chapter 5, implying that this use of proskuneo and the associated actions surrounding these events somehow implied that the proskuneo given to the Lamb, which is never given to the Lamb in this context, but yet it seemed you implied that it was, was of such great significance, because of all these associated actions, that it could only be the proskuneo due to God alone.

My point was that since proskuneo was never given to the Lamb directly in this context, your point was moved.

Fundamental to your argument is for your argument to be relevant.

It's fundamental to your argument. I pointed out that it wasn't there, therefore it was a fundamental flaw.

Okay, so the whole point I'm trying to make, I'm trying to understand what you're saying here, because 5, verse 14, when it says, the elders bowed down in worship, this is after all created things, addressed him who was sitting upon the throne and the Lamb.

Would you agree that the phrase and the Lamb is in verse 13? Yes. Okay, so upon what textual exegetical basis do you believe that the proskuneo of verse 14 all of a sudden ignores the Lamb?

I'm not saying it ignores it, I'm saying it doesn't make it specific to either one, or the other, or both. You asserted that it was specific to the Lamb at least, and so that would be a question you would have to answer.

Now that wasn't an answer, and I think everybody knows that. I think it's... I'm not saying it's body the one. What else is it about? You've just had all creation bowing down before he who sits on the throne and the Lamb, and then you've got this mention of worship, and well, we're not sure what we're worshiping.

No, it's so obvious, and as soon as I heard this Jehovah's Witness elder saying what he said, I could not help but think of this exact situation, where no matter how clear the text is, no matter how compelling the text is, false teaching functions as a filter that just simply gets rid of entire words on a page, and if you're wondering how it ended, we offered to give him a copy of the Forgotten Trinity, and he wouldn't take it, and we ended up spending half an hour discussing why he wouldn't take it, and the fact that I can read anything he has.

You know, he had the reasoning from the Scriptures book, and I said, you know, I was in the... I was... I attended the district convention where that was released. I've had it since the first day it was available.

I can read everything you offer to me. I can take the watchtower. You can give me anything you have in your bag there, and I can examine it, and I said, I'm telling you that there are mistranslations.

I gave him specific mistranslations in WT, and I said, now how are you going to be able to study this to find out whether what I'm saying is right or wrong if you cannot examine this information? What you're telling me is you'll only look at what's pro-watchtower, not what's, well, no, I can do that.

We'll then take the book. No, I won't do that, and it was very clear, because it wasn't just he and I. There was other members of the church there. It was very, very clear that he just simply did not have any means of defending that double standard.

Now, he wouldn't even take my business card, and then he said he'd be willing to talk to the church member that he had originally talked to, but he wouldn't be willing to talk to me again, because, well, you're a scholar, and I'm not a scholar, and so on and so forth, and I'm just like, but again, I've spoken to you from the text of Scripture.

You and I agree this is God's Word, and yet one of us can examine all of what it says, and one of us cannot, and of course, we prayed afterwards that he would remember those things, and that's one of the main reasons I really emphasize focusing upon biblical topics and talking to witnesses, is I know they're not going to take my book.

I know they're not going to take a tract. They're not even going to take my business card, but I've never had a Jehovah's Witness leave an encounter without taking their Bible with them, and so if I have shown them these things in their own Bibles, that's the best thing that they can take with them and remind them of the things that we have said, and so that was, I wanted to add a discussion to the blog article on Revelation 4 and 5, but I just didn't.

It takes a long time to type all that kind of stuff up, and I thought it would work a little bit better playing the clip here so you can hear it, and I've even got a little camera running, so I might throw this video up on YouTube, so that this information is available for folks, because, you know, it's been a long time since I had an opportunity to talk to a Jehovah's Witness, but I'll bet you there's a bunch of folks in our listening audience that'll have that opportunity a whole lot more often than I will, and so if you're confident in your faith, you know what you believe, then that gives you the opportunity of doing that.

So there's some practical apologetics from my own experience just last Friday. Hope that's useful to you. We're going to take our break now.