October 16, 2008

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the

United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is

James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon

Yeah, I know we haven't posted the complete itinerary for London yet because it's not finished that's why

Last I heard London turns the Well, I mentioned last time and on the program and in fact

Martin called in and and then talked to me after the program But I was of course much earlier. It's now very late over there.

It's midnight in London right now, but What are you expecting me to do my

British accent? Is that what you're worried about? No No, you you don't want me to do my British accent. Why are you holding a gun to your head?

Martin called because I was mentioning that should be our leads could be up in Manchester and I'm down London and there's a distance between the two a fairly substantial distance and So the last thing

I've heard Right now it's not written in stone last day of heard is that Shabir said well

It'd be better for him to come to London. So doesn't look like I have to try it travel yet at the moment

We'll see I had already We'd already gotten in touch somebody in Birmingham and you know, we were trying to you know, make things available, however works out but That's still ongoing and what could happen is the one debate with Shabir could become two debates for Shabir Sort of two parts of the same subject, but it would still be two debates which would make five debates in nine days

Now people like David would can handle that I Will come home drooling they'll they'll just wheel me up onto the plane in Durham after it's all over with and and then

Rich will have to meet me and We'll be back and It'll take me a few weeks to Recover from all that.

I imagine so yeah, it'll be it'll be well, but anyhow the subject would be in reference to the prophecies the alleged prophecies of Muhammad in the

Bible and Shabir has always said that before he will debate that he wants to debate whether Jesus is prophesied in the

Old Testament Which sounds strange to people because obviously Jesus is identified as the

Messiah in the Quran and how would you know, he's Messiah if he wasn't prophesied in the

Old Testament, so it'll be interesting so anyways, that's the That situation at the moment,

I hope that all of you in in the back Yes, Oh David would well

David would will be over there David's doing more debates over there And I am that wasn't what I was laughing at somebody had a solution to your problem.

Just wear a bib wear a bib Yes, that was after the debates my point was

I was going to throw myself into these I leave nothing You know you leave it all on the court is the sports illustration, and so you know that's really what

I had in mind, but anyway The studio audience today is a little bit uppity, but anyhow, so that's what's coming up on the the developments in that particular

Area I do have some clips to play today your phone calls as well

What was I looking at now that I've I ran across something on YouTube What was it

I ran across on YouTube? I know I just downloaded Shabir's debate with Anisha Roche on the same subject subject

We'd be addressing then so of course I'll be listening to it as many times as I can between now and then But I'm trying to there was something else.

I thought about mentioning on the dividing line I saw it on YouTube, but I it now has completely vanished from the aging memory and That's that's just life, and you roll your eyes because you're older than me anyways

You just go yeah, I don't care. I don't look older than you, and that's that's getting a little old so anyway

I Guess I will play this one first we had some Tim Staples stuff

Right you ready for this this one You looked weird when I played the beat your chest and say

I am NOT worthy to receive you thing you get a partial indulgence stuff you know you start Too bad that that's a camera over there's not on something

I can turn it around so it's it can see you Because what she just did but anyway

The Trinity smackdown what on earth it was out is algo talking about thing there is a possibility that the there is a soccer

Nikes Primary student is coming to the United States, and we have already said straight off be happy to debate be happy to arrange it

Yeah, we'll do it But I don't think soccer Nike is gonna be coming anytime soon

But that means we may just have to go to India to debate him, but anyway No, I didn't have any to a

Steve Ray either, so we'll let's go with with Tim Staples here so remember last time we played the the partial indulgence for smacking yourself and saying something

I You know people you just you shouldn't be so mean you know

Folks I just find it incredible that people can defend that kind of thing as being biblical

You know I mean come on read the New Testament and this there was a treasury of merits and power of the keys

And and if you hit yourself in a certain way and say certain things at a certain time you get a transfer of excess merit and come on, please

Just gives you just a tremendous example of just how far Rome has gone. Well. Here's a new one As many of you know in the

Old Testament the name of God is Yahweh and this is called the

Tetragrammaton yodhey wow hey and a

Tradition developed among the Jews well, they will not pronounce the divine name. They'll say Hashem the name

They'll say in they'll use Adonai In its place when reading the

Hebrew Things like that to get around actually saying Yahweh Because it's too holy to say now clearly that isn't the

Old Testament's view because Yahweh Revealed himself, and it does cause a certain amount of confusion

Especially when dealing with like Mormonism for example Yahweh is slaughtered in English as Jehovah Jehovah is not a possible pronunciation

That's clearly from the Germanic. It's it's just not what the what the Jews said and so Even at that it has an extra syllable in it because they put the the vowel pointing for Adonai Into Yahweh Yahweh is two syllables

Adonai is three, but they Basically create a form that is supposed to go hey look

I'm the divine name don't say me because I've got too many vowels for the number of consonants I have type of a thing and yet it still comes across as Jehovah and yada yada yada, so anyway

The Jews don't pronounce it, and I've mentioned a couple times in the vying line over the years that if you go into a

Hebrew bookstore a Jewish bookstore be very careful If you really want to demonstrate that you're a you're a goy goyim you're one of those

Gentiles and go ahead and you know pop that up and they'll look at you like oh, thank you very much and That kind of thing so anyway

Yahweh however when you're dealing with Mormons comes across Jehovah and the

Mormons believe that Jehovah and Elohim are separate distinct gods and so since It's difficult for some people to know where the name

Yahweh is in the Old Testament It's very easy to see LORD in all caps is Yahweh. You know some

English translations actually do use it but Most use LORD as a convention

But we seem to miss it because of that we don't we don't see how often it's there Because we don't recognize the existence of Tetragrammaton thousands of thousands of times in the

Old Testament well with all of that as the background and it does come out because I mean if you want to demonstrate that Jesus is

Yahweh if You want to demonstrate that the Old Testament? Uses certain phraseology and terminology of Yahweh that the

New Testament writers apply to Jesus and to him alone in a very specific Way that could only be applicable to him if he's truly deity

You know John 12 and Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12 in comparison with Psalm 102 25 27 all those things

It's important to understand a little something about the Tetra the Tetragrammaton so with that in mind.

Let's listen to a recent call Tim Staples on Catholic answers live

Just real quick. I am in the choir and my choir director told us like I think a week ago

That we can no longer sing songs that have the word Yahweh That's correct.

That's correct. That is that just recently came down from the Vatican Spearheaded by our

Holy Father Pope Benedict the 16th, and it's really a it's a beautiful thing now

Remember Carrie this is when it comes to the liturgy It's it's not that you can't say the word

Yahweh, you know like on the air right now. We're saying yeah, oops we messed up Oh, no, no, no we we can do but it does say liturgically out of great reverence

You know our Holy Father has a wonderful relationship with the

Jewish faith and With the the greatest some say the greatest mind in the in Judaism today rabbi

Neusner Whom he really if you read his book Jesus of Nazareth it oh my it is such a powerful book

But but he spends a good portion of time talking about responding to as well as agreeing with Rabbi Neusner on a number of things, but it's very much goes back to our own

Christian roots as Pope Benedict has pointed out You know the early church you will not find

Christians in the early centuries using the term Yahweh It's always curious in Greek you know and later on and you know when

Latin and and Coptic and such you you you don't see the word Yahweh used

And it's really out of that respect for the divine name that comes right out of our Jewish roots. It's our

Holy Father I think it's beautiful that he's he's bringing that back liturgically and In that sense joining us

You know closer with our Jewish elder brothers and sisters so to speak and and I think it's a way of opening up communication lines with them as well

Hey, we're with you on this We respect you just as our Holy Father in in his book

Jesus of Nazareth You know he praises rabbi Neusner for some of the incredible insights that rabbi

Neusner has Into not just the Old Testament But his reading of Jesus how rabbi

Neusner's brings out the fact that Jesus claimed to be God in very deep ways

But of course rabbi Neusner came to the wrong conclusion. He said as a conclusion I reject I don't believe

Jesus is the Messiah because he claims to be God our Holy Father in a Respectful way says yes, he did claim to be

God, but here's why he is God So you know I think

Pope Benedict in in the same spirit of John Paul II is really teaching us about what real

Dialogue is we respect our brothers and sisters of all faiths

And we agree with them in it so far as they teach truth We can join with them and agree with them, but we never leave it there

We then go a little bit further and help them to see The fullness of the faith that we that we have okay,

Carrie So You can't in the liturgy use the divine name any longer.

I find that Absolutely fascinating I would assume that would mean I wonder what that isn't there isn't the

Jerusalem Bible one of The translations used in the liturgy of modern

Rome, and I'm pretty certain it uses Yahweh in the Old Testament so that would certainly

Discourage any future English translations from more accurately rendering the name

Yahweh I Personally I see no reason for using Lord for Yahweh in the

Old Testament I I don't it is not a matter of showing respect to Jewish tradition or Jewish people

It's a matter of accurately translating the Word of God. It was there It's right there on the page the

Jewish person admits. It's right there on the page You're not trying to offend somebody trying to be accurate and we believe those scriptures are just as much ours as they are theirs so I Found that to be a rather a rather interesting

Interesting direction to go that and I had not heard that so I I learned something new

Let's go ahead and take a phone call real quick and then continue with some other clips as well Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.

Let's talk with Roy. Hi Roy Hello Yes, sir,

I Hey, I'm just reading John McArthur's commentary today, and he mentioned that the

Granville Sharpe rule applied to Acts 223 the pre -determined plan and for knowledge of God And then

I found some stuff online that was saying that it's not applicable there probably from the best I could tell it was because it's not the pronoun or the

The nouns aren't personal What what's your take on that? well actually the the best expert

I know of on the subject of Granville Sharpe constructions is dr. Daniel Wallace of Dallas Seminary his doctoral dissertation was on the

Greek article and with specific and special reference to Granville Sharpe constructions and so his

Greek syntax published by Zondervan has a huge section certainly larger than any other grammar

I've ever run into on the subject of the article and on Granville Sharpe constructions and under the section of both entities identical

Section two says exegetically and theologically significant texts. There are several ambiguous impersonal

TSKS constructions or We're talking about Granville Sharpe basically Some of which are exegetically significant three of them will be taken up here and the first one is

Acts 2 23 And his comment is if for knowledge defines predetermination this opens the door that according to one definition of prognosis

God's decree is dependent on his omniscience But if the terms are distinguishable the relationship may be reversed that is

Omniscience is dependent on the eternal decree without attempting to resolve this theological issue entirely

It can nevertheless be argued that the identical view is unlikely the least attested meaning of impersonal constructions is referential identity the relationship between the two terms here may be one of distinctness or the subsumption of one under the other in the context of Acts 2 and in light of Luke's Christological argument from prophecy and pattern the most likely option is that prognosis is grounded in the predetermined plan of God Horace men a bully for those who don't want to get lost in the

Greek thus foreknowledge is a part of the predetermined plan for one of the Focuses the foci of the chapter is on the divine plan in relation to the

Messiah's death and resurrection Thus God's decrees are not based on him simply for knowing what human beings will do rather Humanity's actions are based on God's foreknowledge and predetermined plan.

That is page 288 of at least the version that I had there has

I think since I purchased this There has been a smaller version that has been published as well because the original was

Big enough to cause people's backs to go out of whack while they're carrying it It's available it's available electronically you can if you have if you have libra nix you can get for that and If you have

Bible works, you can get it for that as well. That's how when I saw your phone call I popped it up on Bible works 7 and Pulled it up for you.

Well perfect So that would probably be in error than to try to apply that as MacArthur does well

I think I think we need to recognize that that as Dr. Wallace points out there are elements of How these work you have overlapping entities you have first entity subset of a second second subset of a third of a first Both entities identical etc.

Etc. So there still needs to be some interpretation, especially when you're not talking about personal descriptions of an individual that's when it gets

You know a little more It is what what God has done next to 23 is according to one thing

But it doesn't make the two elements identical to one another we need to need to understand how they're related to one another and I think

Wallace brought that out in those comments there Yeah, obviously the relationship can't be denied that there's but there's a relationship between the two, but it right

Certainly certainly certainly I think one of the things the things that does point out That's important is that they cannot be they cannot be separated from one another

Now that doesn't make them identical But there are some some types of theology that would separate from them from one another and that that could be

That could lead to some some difficulties So I think it's a good observation to to make that that you do have that construction there

And it does it is seeking to tell us something But at the same time as Wallace points out when you're dealing with entities such as this impersonal constructions the idea of a of a exact I Equation there is not necessarily what's being communicated

Well, I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Okay. You're most welcome. Thanks for calling I got less, but eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

There's somebody sitting out there going you've got somebody sitting in there doing that for you. No, actually I Saw the call and that's why it's important that you when you call the program

Please tell the call screener an accurate description of your call Because it helps if there's a specific text and there's a question about it then sometimes

I can utilize the resources that I have here and It's not that I'm smart.

It's just that I've got lots good resources Might I just add that Alpha Omega Ministries does carry

Bible works in our bookstore definitely does But it'll make for a great

Chris. Oh awesome Chris or your theologian in your family And in fact, if you if you put that together with the with the

Todd's CD It would just put them under the tree together boy. You're ready to go Ah How do you like that for on -the -fly advertising that the debt to the we're we are professionals here excellence in webcasting

I'll have you probably can't use that somebody else right sue us or something like that, but Someone who has millions and millions and millions of dollars

Might take our hundreds and hundreds of dollars Yes Yeah, sky man was just noticing

I have Bible works mmm, and I noticed that sky man liked Bible works better And he liked

Leibronics, so I think part of it was because at that stage Leibronics would like eat every possible portion of RAM If you had that thing even minimized it was just like oh back to the days of the 286

SX remember those Those are great. They were oh I am dating myself there aren't

I yes right after the 8088. Yes murder 286. They weren't around very long, but yeah They weren't around very long for a good reason

Well, then we went to the 386 and then the 486 and yes, it was great then came along the

Pentium The younger people are going man. He knows he remembers all that stuff. That's terrible all right

Let's take another quick staples call before we get back to the you know algo's gonna. Be really upset that we haven't

Gotten back to the because we could actually finish up the debate today if I wasn't taking time on other things

But I did want to play this one because the Calvinist in the audience will enjoy this It's always enjoyable whenever Tim Staples talks about Calvinism because Just Wow you know when you have a former assemblies of God youth pastor

It becomes a Roman Catholic the result in discussions of Calvinism is always just a tad bit on the entertaining side, okay?

I'm relaying a question for a friend, so forgive me if it's a little vague, but she was at a talk

Medical ethics, and it was just a Christian group in general and the gentleman said something kind of off late about preferring the view of the intellect

He prefers Calvin's view versus st. Thomas's view and she told me that was really confused by what he meant by that and We were wondering if you might be able to a little bit

I'm gonna try and relay this to her, so I'll write up and listen to you and try and remember all right Well, I'll tell you what

Matthew. I would love to sit down with whoever that was Because I you know it's it's hard to to respond to them because I'm not sure exactly

Where they're coming from however I will say this there is a radical difference between the view of John Calvin and the view of st.

Thomas Aquinas when it comes to the illumination of the intellect in our relationship with God John Calvin taught as you

I'm sure you know under the acronym of tulip as it was developed Among you know the

Calvinist Total depravity Of course tulip came along you know 50 years after John was dead, but anyway

Which which is Completely I mean let's say radically different than what what st.

St. Thomas would have taught earth that st. Thomas did teach Calvin taught that we are so utterly and absolutely depraved that we have no free will

We have no ability to reach out to God whatsoever in fact His belief in our total depravity was so complete that we cannot even cooperate with God's grace in a meritorious way

Because we are as it were so much puppets in the hands of God I Remember Calvin saying that don't you

Because the way he's presenting it here. It sounds like he's actually giving Calvin's view and of course.

He's he's not Giving Calvin's view in using terminology like we're just puppets in the hands of God You know

I but then again can we really blame him because I mean George Bryson does the same thing so you know his belief of total depravity would lead to I I believe you know it's it's the first that leads to You know the limited atonement irresistible grace.

That's the L and the I and the P the perseverance in grace when you begin with An unconditional election

I forgot the you there didn't write the unconditional election when you begin with this notion My where'd that voice come from you right?

Sounds like his bodyguards in the back going. I know Calvin is like Sunni Islam.

I should mention Calvin very much like that that God is so awesome

And we are so evil that that there can be no cooperation God simply chooses whom he will

I? Bet you got that one from guys It's like Sunni Islam.

You know You know let's let's ignore The utter transcendence of God in Sunni Islam, and let's ignore that You know

Calvin's section on presentation election actually comes right after the prayer section which is the longest section in the

Institutes and that so there's this massive theological difference between the two At that point in regards to God's purposes and rats.

Let's not worry about that Let's just let's just throw these together and and since there's some surface level similarities

And and unfortunately he certainly isn't the only one who does that there are lots of other folks by the way just before I go back to that I think

I Mentioned in the last program finished King James only controversy I might even have galleys as long as I can get these images.

I'm waiting for by November so Don't know when it'll be available, but they'll they'll do it probably fairly fairly quickly.

I'm on to the Potter's freedom I Finished putting together the appendix in response to Geisler Man going through that reminded me.

It's been a number of years of just how bad Geisler's response the Potter's freedom was

Wow Still absolutely convinced that Geisler did not write more than ten words of it

It was his beginning logic class and those folks were bad logic

Man oh Just just horrible, but anyways. I'm adding sections on first in the 410 and 2nd

Peter 2 1 and So hopefully very very soon the next edition of the

Potter's freedom with a new cover Will be coming out as well so those of you who've been

Asking about that that's that's coming up and just mentioning Geisler at that point because he likes to do the Islam thing and Calvinist thing and I wouldn't be surprised.

That's where staples got it All right, John you're going to heaven Tim Staples hell Darren hell

Chanel hell all right We'll pick John out you you go to heaven and the man has nothing to say about it.

There's no cooperation in fact He cannot cooperate with God's grace. This is very different than st.

Thomas Aquinas I mentioned Thomas Aquinas aside of just briefly that's right st. St. Thomas much in line with st.

Augustine And st. Augustine who would talk about the difference between cooperating graces and operating graces

Meaning that yes, there are some graces that we receive from God they are Absolutely independent of us in every sense of the word the first grace as Thomas would call it

St. Augustine calls it the operating grace For example the grace of baptism there is nothing that we can do to merit this initial grace of salvation from God God gives it and And there's nothing we can do to merit it however

God also gives graces that we must Cooperate and that's where Augustine talks about cooperating grace as st.

Thomas Aquinas will as well We must cooperate with these graces in order for them to be effectual in our lives now

John Calvin taught Irresistibility of grace no Thomas says we can resist grace

Now let let here comes the only reason I've gone this far because this isn't overly exciting Is he's he's actually about to throw out

I? Was you can always tell? When people start talking about irresistible grace if they have a if they have a clue what the actual issues are by what kind of text are going to use if they go to act 7 and Talking about how they always resisted the

Holy Spirit Then you know they really aren't thinking about the issue there. They've just looked it up in a book

They read Vance so they read Bryson or something They don't understand that we're talking about the grace of God that brings salvation and that that's not what act 7 is talking about and that we make these distinctions and You know you start tell they're just just going with something they read someplace they actually haven't engaged their minds in a serious reflection upon Meaningful reformed writing so let's see let's see where Tim Staples falls in this realm

And I should mention that the Bible says we can resist grace to in Galatians Galatians chapter 5 verse 4 you are fallen from grace

Yeah there you go And people I go well

It says you fell from grace Actually, it's addressing those who are seeking to be justified by the law

They are Separated severed from Christ they have fallen from grace in other words

Those who are seeking to be justified by law as you either go you either go straight north

That's the path of law or straight south. That's a path of grace. You're not going to get very far going both directions they are opposite directions and it has nothing to do obviously with what we believe about the

Holy Spirit of God bringing about regeneration and Causing a person to be born again and giving them a new nature

Galatians 5 has nothing to do with any of that, but that's

Tim Staples throwing that out there And so on and so forth so anyway.

We will get back to the 1993 solo scriptura debate to make I'll go happy right after our break.

We'll be right back It's not an easy way, it's a journey to the

Sun Following Jesus It's a walk of praise

The Trinity is a basic teaching of the

Christian faith it defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book the

Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a

Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit the Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the

Trinity dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommended

You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Omega ministries is pleased to introduce the

Christmas morning CD by Todd Lindstrom Passion and peace are what sets Todd's music apart from others

These 12 instrumental favorites will bless and inspire you as you entertain guests and spend

Christmas morning with your family You can find this beautiful music that celebrates the birth of our

Lord in the bookstore at a omen org You Hello everyone, this is

Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha to Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?

We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality

Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book

The same -sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the

Bible's teaching on the subject Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including

Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner

They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy

Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen or And Welcome back to the dividing line on a

Thursday afternoon. I was gonna dive back into the debate But so when you get a phone call from Iraq You you figure it's probably not cheap to make phone calls from Iraq.

So let's talk with Sean. Hi, Sean Hey there, dr. White. How are you doing over there in Iraq?

What's the weather like today? It's not too bad. Well Chilly actually right now, but really it's about 2 in the morning.

Well That's understandable. At least it's not 120 degrees. So it's better than nothing.

All right, right. So what's up pretty bad over here, but yes Yes, sir, go ahead

Yeah Fourth time I've called you before from Fort Carson, Colorado Fort Benning, Georgia, Fort Drum, New York, so, you know odds are

I'd eventually be over here too, but Just Quick question.

I've asked a few others mostly from ministers of my own denomination on this What's your opinion on marriage between a reformed

Pato Baptist and a reformed Baptist? And you call this a quick question, okay

Well You know, it obviously it's always best to have some kind of Discussion about such things.

I'm assuming that the genesis of the question is we have and we can't come to A conclusion on the subject.

I'm assuming that I could be wrong but Is that is that a fair Well, obviously obviously we're talking about two

Christians here and I I believe my my Pato Baptist brethren are are my brothers in the

Lord and But what it raises obviously is the issue of fellowship and The fact that there are many

Presbyterian churches and many reformed Baptist churches that Believe that that subject is very important They want to have unity amongst the congregation as to the meaning on the one side of the sacraments outside the ordinances especially as it as it relates to whether children are covenant children and how they should be treated as covenant children or whether They are not covenant children in that sense and that they're there to be called to repentance and faith in in a in a way that sometimes

Reformed Baptist anyways feel that there are some Presbyterians that don't so erased all sorts of issues that obviously

Would have to have some kind of Resolution there would have to be some kind of agreement on the part of the husband the wife as to how

Those issues were going to be addressed, but obviously from my perspective

You would have significantly more unity on the fundamentals of the gospel on how to deal with tragedy and and and worldview and so on so forth between a reformed

Pato Baptist and reformed Baptist then you would have between a

Then then anyone who's reformed would have with someone who's not reformed So I would think there would be significantly more foundation of unity there and so on so forth in in that in that type of context, so certainly from my perspective, it's not an issue of being unequally yoked or anything else just a matter of of Recognizing, you know having a heads up beforehand that these are issues are going to need to be

Yeah, yeah, you bet uh -huh yeah, so okay, you know

The other thing to do is just make sure that you know for a wedding present or something like that you you get my debate with Bill Shishko, so There you go

Well, you gotta watch Yeah, right. You got to watch them. You see you got to watch you know because remember remember back in the

Nixon The Nixon Kennedy debate people who heard the debate thought

Nixon won and people who watched it thought Kennedy won So you got it. You got to do both Wow Don't worry.

I was even before my time too. So let's let's let's be a little nice there. So all right

Hey, thank you for your call and keep your head down over there Will do all right.

Thanks for calling. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye I've never heard that one before And is there another webcast on the planet where that kind of a phone call would come in probably not but Yes, and as someone just said in channel

We thank this caller for his service very very very true. All right, so and Rich just saluted

So I'm not sure if he's an officer or not, but hey since we're not we'll salute anyways All right, let's get back to where we were before if I can find it here there we are and See if we can't get a little bit more done on the

Madrid debate and We've only got let me look at this here is only about half an hour left So we were not to get through all today

But as long as I can keep myself from talking too much, we might actually get something accomplished here

God's ultimate authority is determined at the end Longest eat most easily

Contested chain of syllogistic arguments Now just to get us back into the end of the thing here

What I was talking about was the other side of the Roman Catholic position and that is the concept of the papacy

The authority of the Roman Catholic Church We had just listened to Patrick Madrid give what they called at that time in Catholic answers these spiral argument for how you know that Rome is the ultimate authority then and Rome speaks for God and so on so forth and it's all sorts of appeals to historical situations and we can use the

Bible without actually You know requiring it to be a

Inspired text and all along the line. I mean it really would have been Fairly easily easy to take that entire argument apart and say none of this works

The idea that well, you know, we can just take the Bible We don't have to make the Word of God and it tells us such -and -so.

Well, why do you trust it? If it's just simply historical source, then what about other historical sources you might want to you know

Suggest or are opposed to it and so on and so forth and you have just this long

Line and at each point each part of the argument is questionable and when you take ten

Arguments and each time You you put them together and each section is is contestable.

The whole thing taken as a whole is highly unlikely That is what you have when you have the promulgation of the concept of the

Roman Catholic Papacy that is how one knows God's ultimate authority is through a a process

You'll find this on pages 126 of 127 of Carl Keating's book. I think very well done by mr

Madrid and repeating it that ends with a statement the Catholic believes an inspiration because the church tells him

So that is putting it bluntly and that same church has the authority to interpret the inspired text That is where the ultimate authority lies.

I That is that is what's being presented to us tonight as to what's to replace the

Christian Recognizing the scripture is God breathed and hence accepting God speaking in his word in the testimony of Jesus Christ As the ultimate authority, that's what we're to replace that with.

I certainly hope no one's willing to do that so there

I started preaching a little bit there and that's good because that finally after all the

You know the rhetoric it had at least come out, you know Even despite the use of the canon argumentation and so on so forth now it comes out here's what you are supposed to buy into as being the clear and compelling and obvious truth is this this spiral argument that That Roman Catholicism or at least those and Catholic answers try to use to come up with well

If you say you can't trust the Bible and you trust quote -unquote the church, how do you know it's your particular version church well, you know you you first do this and then if that's true you do this and if that's true news and and There's the same folks who are saying you can't look at history.

You you you're violating soul scripture to look at history Well, mr. White, I think the essence of this argument boils down to one issue

In my case I'm appealing to the church to tell me that this scripture is What it claims to be that Matthew wrote it that it came from the other apostles in the case of the other books

That it's trustworthy that it's an air which again just in case you're just now turning in he doesn't know Just to say, you know

Rome can't tell him anymore. It could once But but Patrick was born too late in time to have the certainty that he truly

Desires to have in that particular thing I believe all of that because the church witnesses to me that it's so it witnessed once but it stopped doing the witnessing now

See, that's that's one of the real problems with that position But I see that you have the same problem you in a sense caricature or have a pejorative comment for my appeal to authority

Well, you have the same problem. Mr. White. Now. Did you catch that? He said I caricatured it and then

I have a pejorative comment Those are not the same things and if you're gonna say someone caricatured it what he's saying is that they've misrepresented it

I Who gave them the exact page numbers in Carl Keating's book to read

I did he didn't I? Knew exactly where it was from. I had done my homework and I didn't caricature it.

I accurately represented it so that's a false statement and Pejorative that did in other words.

I disagreed with it. I pointed out that it's it's questionable It point after point. How is that pejorative?

I didn't say boy. That's dumb. That would be pejorative Only a stupid person believe that that's pejorative.

That's not what I did So both descriptions neither one of which is it all I could you appeal to this authority?

Independent of its context in the church and say that you just you just know that it's inspired He appeals to history independent of its context in the church and he just knows that's enough to establish

Roman Catholic authority, right? You just know that it's God's Word, but you haven't given us any evidence for that knowledge you haven't pointed us in any direction other than your own personal studies or your biblical lexicons that you may turn to My own personal studies are biblical lexicons

He was really smart and on on the fact that he could not even begin to engage the biblical text in a meaningful fashion

I think he was really trying to cover that up. I think it's where some of the I don't know nastiness came from was that he was trying to you know

At the Jimmy Akin was there Carl Keating was there, you know, you got a Hometown audience, but as we all know, mr.

White you are fallible Your opinion on this issue. I'm afraid is worthless and Patrick Madrid is fallible.

Therefore his opinion on every single step of the syllogism. He presented is Using his argumentation worthless therefore

Rome cannot be the final authority because the argument you just present he just refuted, right? Let's apply the same standard to both sides

Let's let's do that The though they probably would rather not do that I want to know with certitude and I would much rather trust the church that is taught for 2 ,000 years

Than what you say about the Bible the church that has taught for 2 ,000 years

Well, which church is that mr. Madrid is that the the Church of the Council of Nicaea where the

Council members did not believe many of the things you define as dogma today that define the very gospel of Christ Is that the 2 ,000 year church?

Yeah, you know we I know we've gone through each one of these things over and over again, but hey, you know By The way,

I I guess I did put into the transcript of this I guess I have many many years ago did take the time.

I did not get my last question I got shorted one on this one. And so, you know,

I understand how that happens I'm not certainly upset with Pastor Wagner or anything, but I I There wasn't it was given an advantage in when you get to frame the questions that is an advantage to you obviously, so Algo pointed that out to me.

Mr. White you Claim that sola scriptura is true

Or probably your claim that sola scriptura is true requires you to say that all apostolic traditions

Or at least all of them that the church was meant to have are recorded in Scripture Thus far tonight you have merely made this fair assertion

But no, but you haven't cited any verses to prove it, please cite for us some texts from Scripture Requiring us to say that all such traditions which are mentioned in 1st

Corinthians 11 to 2nd Thessalonians 2 15 and elsewhere that all these traditions must all be written down Now interesting question not an overly relevant one on a logical basis because What is he attempting to prove?

Sola scriptura does not require me to say that every apostolic tradition Has been written down in the sense that that assumes that every apostolic tradition is meant to be preserved in the church for each and every generation that assumes an identity between Everything the

Apostles ever said and the final form of Scripture, which I don't believe in the first place I don't believe that we needed

I don't believe it was the Holy Spirit's intention to provide to us and Rome would have to agree with this because Rome can't tell

Us any of these things, but I don't think we need to have a 100 % transcript of Every word that Paul spoke while preaching that night where the young man fell asleep in the window and fell down was taken up dead

Because obviously Paul was preaching for a long long long long time In fact, probably Paul spoke more words in that one sermon than there are in the entire

New Testament and so it is not my position that we have everything every

Apostle every taught ever taught to anybody and That is why when

I debated Mitch Pacwa, I asked him has Rome dogmatically defined a

Single word anything that Jesus or the Apostles ever taught that is not found in Scripture one word

And he admitted as he must in all honesty now

Rome has never defined a single word outside of the canonical scriptures that was spoken by Paul the

Apostles And so he said well, yeah, but they've defined apostolic traditions. Well, and as soon as you start pushing this

Once again, we come back to Madrid's error and that is given the position he took in this debate

He'd have to believe that there is an apostolic tradition of the canon He can't trace it, but he'll have to believe that there was and he'd have to believe that Paul delivered to the

Thessalonians Everything that eventually is described as apostolic tradition But that clearly is not the case

The early church did not believe many of the things that Roman Catholicism teaches today as dogma

They were unknown to many of those early centuries many of the things that are taught as dogma today were unknown to those individuals and so The whole thing ends up becoming again very circular and this would come out if these individuals would debate if they would defend their position

They don't want to do that. I Mentioned I believe last week that art Sippo had blown a cog again because Someone had called him about a debate.

Well, what had happened was there was a student at a University who was trying to find Roman Catholic to debate and one of the people he contacted contacted art

Sippo So a simple just assumed that was me Trying to find somebody to you know attack and blah blah blah and we talked about this on the blog and once again he you know exploded and and so on so forth

This same individual also has indicated that Patrick Madrid cannot debate either He didn't say why but he just can't debate a part of is because a lot of these guys require a huge speakers fee a lot of them require

Multiple four -digit figures just to walk through the door For their speaker fees and that certainly limits the places that they can go

And the debates they can engage in but anyway the point being we would love to see

Patrick Madrid Take it and since he claims to have won this debate Hands down and he claims to be undefeated against me.

Then you would think He would be one well the first he'd be calling us he'd be contacting us and going hey

How about we have a debate and I defend the Roman Catholic concept of tradition now

Of course, I don't know if Patrick still holds the same view of tradition that he did at that time.

It may have changed You know, but we know it's the view whichever one it now is that that becomes one of them

It's a little bit like a moving target, but hey anyway We'd be happy anyways because just getting a

Roman Catholic to actually defend these things not just the papacy as a whole though That would be worthwhile. I I will say this we've never lost a debate on the papacy never have none of them

They've been close to be perfectly honest with you History is just too clear. It's just it's right there, you know there's just too many holes the modern

Roman dogma is So far beyond what you can you can substantiate given the realities of history that it's not overly difficult to demonstrate

That that is that they've they've gone way beyond what history warrants. And so anyway, I would say that a

Defense of the Roman Catholic doctrine of tradition, which he kept saying I'm not gonna defend this evening Not gonna defend this evening.

Well, you know, I would figure after you know 15 years Maybe it's time to do that and there were a number of times when

Patrick made comments about you know, that's for another debate for another time and So I think those those debates should continue personally

I'm not sure why they wouldn't it seems mr. Madrid You weren't listening to my presentation very closely because I mentioned second

Thessalonians 3 6 He uses the term tradition refers back to what Paul had written first Thessalonians chapter 5 verse 14 there are numerous others such as first Corinthians 11 23 second

Thessalonians 2 5 and 2nd Peter 1 12 through 15 that all make the same point and that is that what is preached by the

Individuals who are writing for example Peter or Paul? What was preached to them is now consistent with what they themselves are saying

For example in first Corinthians 11, he says that he has delivered to them that which he also received

He has delivered to them in both ways the second Thessalonians says he's preached it to them He has written it to them, but I want everyone to notice what's going on here

It is the Roman assertion that what is in these supposed apostolic traditions is different than what we have in the

New Testament Mr. Madrid just said it's my job to prove that there's that what's in the apostolic traditions is

Is the same now remember this is where? Madrid has has set up a double standard for himself

He he wants to make the canon a part of you know, basically extra biblical revelation

He wants to make tradition the honest us but whenever he's challenged on that He will step back and say you just don't understand.

I believe in material sufficiency He's contradicting himself constantly

I I honestly believe I need to check this out Maybe somebody has a whole lot more time than I do can do this

But when did Catholic answers start using the the terminology formal and material sufficiency

Because I think it was about now. I Don't think it's found anywhere in in Keating's book

It would be if someone had and I think I do have at least up to that point in time a pretty complete library of All of Catholic answers materials their tracks this rock magazine stuff like that It would be a fascinating exercise for someone who is really bored stiff

And has nothing else to do to dig through all that stuff and find out when it was that a

Catholic answer started utilizing this terminology because I'm I Haven't gone back check it out.

So I'm not gonna say it for certain, but I don't think I had ever heard them using this

Until this year and I don't think they even used it in the debate in Denver I could be wrong, but I don't remember it and I still haven't had anybody who's found that debate from Denver I I wonder at least

I gotta remember to look even at Catholic answers because I would love to play some of those sections and just knock some of this the the the stuffing out of some of the arguments they used because it didn't get knocked out of The ballpark like it should have been in Denver at all.

So But we will continue we got We got a little closer We still have well about 30 minutes we'll have to go in the debate we've got the closing statements to do but we'll get there

Maybe maybe next week. I'll not want to talk so much. But soon I start hearing these things I want to jump in so we will continue with that Here on the dividing line pray for us as we continue to prepare for London.

It's coming at us at high speed We'll be here Tuesday, but we'll not be here Thursday next week. I just realized that so we'll see in the violent

We need

The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or write us at P O box 3 7 1 0 6

Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks