October 16, 2008

The Dividing Line Opens and Upcoming London Debates

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 460 to or toll-free across the United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1. And now with today's topic here is James White.

And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon. Yeah, I know we haven't posted the complete itinerary for London yet because it's not finished that's why. Last I heard London turns the.

Well, I mentioned last time and on the program and in fact Martin called in and and then talked to me after program. But I was of course much earlier. It's now very late over there. It's midnight in London right now, but What are you expecting me to do my British accent?

Is that what you're worried about? No. No, you you don't want me to do my British accent. Why are you holding a gun to your head? Martin called because I was mentioning that should be our leads could be up in Manchester and I'm down London and there's a distance between the two a fairly substantial distance and.

So the last thing I've heard right now. It's not written in stone last thing I've heard is that Shabir said well, it'd be better for him to come to London. So doesn't look like I have to travel yet at the moment.

We'll see I had already. We'd already gotten in touch somebody in Birmingham and you know, we were trying to you know, make things available, however works out but That's still ongoing and what could happen is the one debate with Shabir could become two debates for Shabir.

Sort of two parts of the same subject, but it would still be two debates which would make five debates in nine days. Now people like David Wood can handle that I will come home drooling they'll they'll just wheel me up onto the plane in Durham after it's all over with and and then Rich will have to meet me and wheel me back and It'll take me a few weeks to Re-recover from all that.

I imagine so yeah, it'll be it'll be well, but anyhow the subject would be in reference to the prophecies the alleged prophecies of Muhammad in the Bible and Shabir has always said that before he will debate that he wants to debate whether Jesus is prophesied in the Old Testament.

Which sounds strange to people because obviously Jesus is identified as the Messiah in the Quran and how would you know, he's Messiah if he wasn't prophesied in the Old Testament, so it'll be interesting so anyways, that's the That situation at the moment, I hope that all of you in in the back.

Yes, Oh David would well David would will be over there David's doing more debates over there.

And I am. That wasn't what I was laughing at. Somebody had a solution to your problem. Just wear a bib. Wear a bib.

I'm drooling. Yes, that was after the debates. My point was I was going to throw myself into these. I leave nothing. You know, you leave it all on the court is the sports illustration. And so, you know, that's really what I had in mind.

But anyway. The studio audience today is a little bit uppity. But anyhow, so that's what's coming up on the the developments in that particular Area, I do have some clips to play today your phone calls as well.

Mmm, what was I looking at now that I've I ran across something on YouTube. What was it? I ran across on YouTube. I know I just downloaded Shabir's debate with Anisha Roche on the same subject subject.

We'd be addressing then. So, of course, I'll be listening to it as many times I can between now and then but I'm trying to it there was something else I thought about mentioning on the dividing line. I saw it on YouTube, but I it now has completely Vanished from the aging memory and that's that's just life and you roll your eyes because you're older than me.

Anyways. You just go in and carrying out look older than you and that's that's getting a little old. So anyway, I Guess I will play this one first. We had some Tim Staples stuff. Right. You ready for this this one?

You looked weird when I played the beat your chest and say I am NOT worthy to receive you thing. You get a partial indulgence stuff, you know, you start. Too bad that that's a camera over there's not on something I can turn it around so it can see you.

Because what you just did but anyway The Trinity smackdown what on earth it was out is algo talking about thing there is a possibility that there is a Soccer Nikes Primary student is coming to the United States and we have already said straight off be happy to debate be happy to arrange it.

Yeah, we'll do it. But I don't think soccer Nike is going to be coming anytime soon. But that means we may just have to go to India to debate him. But anyway. No, I didn't have any to a Steve Ray either so we'll let's go with With Tim Staples here, so remember last time we played the the partial indulgence for smacking yourself and saying something I You know people you just you shouldn't be so mean, you know.

Folks, I just find it incredible that people can defend that kind of thing as being biblical you know, I mean come on read the New Testament and this there was a Treasury of merits and power of the keys and and if you hit yourself in a certain way and say certain things at a certain Time you get a transfer of excess merits and come on, please Just gives you just a tremendous example of just how far Rome has gone.

The Divine Name, Yahweh, and Catholic Liturgical Practice

Well, here's a new one. As many of you know in the Old Testament the name of God is Yahweh and This is called the Tetragrammaton Yod-heh-wow-heh and a Tradition developed among the Jews. Well, they will not pronounce the the divine name.

They'll say Hashem the name. They'll say in they'll use Adonai In its place when reading the Hebrew Things like that to get around actually saying Yahweh because it's too holy to say now clearly that isn't the Old Testament's view because Yahweh Revealed himself and it does cause a certain amount of confusion.

Especially when dealing with like Mormonism, for example, Yahweh is slaughtered in English as Jehovah. Jehovah is not a possible pronunciation. That's clearly from the Germanic. It's it's just not what the what the Jews said and so even at that it has an extra syllable in it because they put the the vowel pointing for Adonai Into Yahweh Yahweh is two syllables.

Adonai is three, but they Basically create a form that is supposed to go. Hey, look, I'm the divine name. Don't say me because I've got too many vowels for the number of consonants I have type of a thing and yet it still comes across as Jehovah and yada yada yada.

So anyway the Jews don't pronounce it and I've mentioned a couple times in the vying line over the years that if you go into a a Hebrew bookstore a Jewish bookstore Be very careful. If you really want to demonstrate that you're a you're a goy goyim you're one of those Gentiles and go ahead and you know, pop that up and they'll look at you like oh, thank you very much and That kind of thing so anyway Yahweh however when you're dealing with Mormons Comes across Jehovah and the Mormons believe that Jehovah and Elohim are separate distinct gods and so since It's difficult for some people to know where the name Yahweh is in the Old Testament.

It's very easy to see LORD in all caps is Yahweh, you know, some English translations actually do use it, but Most use LRD as a convention. But we seem to miss it because of that. We don't we don't see how often it's there.

Because we don't recognize the existence of tetragrammaton thousands of thousands of times in the Old Testament well with all of that as the background and it does come out because I mean if you want to demonstrate that Jesus is Yahweh.

If you want to demonstrate that the Old Testament uses certain phraseology and terminology of Yahweh that the New Testament writers apply to Jesus and to him alone in a very Specific way that could only be applicable to him if he's truly deity.

You know John 12 and Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12 in comparison with Psalm 102 25 27 all those things It's important to understand a little something about the tetra the tetragrammaton. So with that in mind, let's listen to a recent call Tim Staples on Catholic answers live.

Just real quick. I'm in the choir and my choir director told us like I think a week ago That we can no longer sing songs that have the word Yahweh.

That's correct, that's correct that is that just recently came down from the Vatican Spearheaded by our Holy Father Pope Benedict the 16th, and it's really a it's a beautiful thing now. Remember carry this is when it comes to the liturgy.

It's it's not that you can't say the word Yahweh, you know, like on the air right now. We're saying yeah. Oops. We messed up. No, no, we we can do but it does say liturgically out of great reverence, you know, our Holy Father has a wonderful relationship with the Jewish faith and.

With the the greatest some say the greatest mind in the in Judaism today rabbi Neusner. Whom he really if you read his book Jesus of Nazareth it. Oh my it is such a powerful book. But but he spends a good portion of time Talking about responding to as well as agreeing with Rabbi Neusner on a number of things but it's very much goes back to our own Christian roots as Pope Benedict has pointed out.

You know the early church you will not find Christians in the early centuries using the term Yahweh. It's always curious in Greek, you know and later on and you know when Latin and and Coptic and such you you you don't See the word Yahweh used and it's really out of that respect for the divine name that comes right out of our Jewish roots.

It's our Holy Father. I think it's beautiful that he's he's bringing that back liturgically and in that sense joining us you know closer with our Jewish elder brothers and sisters so to speak and and I think it's a way of opening up communication lines with them as well.

Hey, we're with you on this. We respect you just as our Holy Father in his book Jesus of Nazareth, you know. He praises rabbi Neusner for some of the incredible insights that rabbi Neusner has into not just the Old Testament.

But his reading of Jesus how rabbi Neusner's brings out the fact that Jesus claimed to be God in very deep ways. But of course rabbi Neusner came to the wrong conclusion. He said as a conclusion I reject I don't believe Jesus is the Messiah because he claims to be God our Holy Father in a respectful way says yes.

He did claim to be God, but here's why he is God. So, you know, I think Pope Benedict in in the same spirit of John Paul II is really teaching us about what real dialogue is we respect our Brothers and sisters of all faiths and we agree with them in it so far as they teach truth.

We can join with them and agree with them, but we never leave it there. We then go a little bit further and help them to see The fullness of the faith that we that we have. Okay, Carrie.

So You can't in the liturgy use the divine name any longer. I find that Absolutely fascinating. I would assume that would mean. I wonder what that isn't there isn't the Jerusalem Bible One of the translations used in the liturgy of modern Rome and I'm pretty certain it uses Yahweh in the Old Testament so that would certainly Discourage any future English translations from more accurately rendering the name Yahweh.

I personally I see no reason for using Lord for Yahweh in the Old Testament. I I don't it is not a matter of showing respect to Jewish tradition or Jewish people. It's a matter of accurately translating the Word of God.

It was there. It's right there on the page the Jewish person admits. It's right there on the page. You're not trying to offend somebody you're trying to be accurate and we believe those scriptures are just as much ours as they are theirs so I Found that to be a rather a rather interesting Interesting direction to go that and I had not heard that so I I learned something new.

Granville Sharp, Acts 2:23, and Divine Foreknowledge

Let's go ahead and take a phone call real quick and then continue with some other clips as well. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. Let's talk with Roy. Hi Roy.

Hello, right. Yes, sir. All right. Hey, I'm just reading John McArthur's commentary today and He mentioned that the Granville Sharpe rule applied to acts 223 The the Predetermined plan and for knowledge of God and then I found some stuff online that was saying that it's not applicable there.

Probably from the best I could tell it was because it's not the pronoun or the The nouns aren't personal. What what's your take on that. Well actually.

The the best expert I know of on the subject of Granville Sharpe constructions is dr. Daniel Wallace Dallas Seminary. His doctoral dissertation was on the Greek article and with specific and special reference to Granville Sharpe constructions and so his Greek syntax published by Zondervan has a huge section certainly larger than any other grammar I've ever run into on the subject of the article and on Granville Sharpe constructions and under the section of both entities identical.

Section 2 says exegetically and theologically significant texts. There are several ambiguous impersonal TSKS constructions or. We're talking about Granville Sharpe basically. Some of which are exegetically significant.

Three of them will be taken up here. And the first one is acts 223. And his comment is if for knowledge defines predetermination. This opens the door that according to one definition of prognosis God's decree is dependent on his omniscience.

But if the terms are distinguishable the relationship may be reversed. That is omniscience is dependent on the eternal decree. Without attempting to resolve this theological issue entirely it can nevertheless be argued that the identical view is unlikely.

The least attested meaning of impersonal constructions is referential identity. The relationship between the two terms here may be one of distinctness or. The subsumption of one under the other in the context of acts 2 and in light of Luke's Christological argument from prophecy and pattern.

The most likely option is that prognosis is grounded in the predetermined plan of God. Horace men a bully for those who don't want to get lost in the Greek thus for knowledge is a part of the predetermined plan.

For one of the focuses the foci of the chapter is on the divine plan in relation to the Messiah's death and resurrection. Thus God's decrees are not based on him simply for knowing what human beings will do rather Humanity's actions are based on God's foreknowledge and predetermined plan.

That is page 288 of at least the version that I had there has I think since I purchased this. There has been a smaller version that has been published as well because the original was Big enough to cause people's backs to go out of whack while they're carrying it.

My list to get it's available. It's available electronically. You can if you have if you have libra nix. You can get for that and if you have Bible works, you can get it for that as well that's how when I saw your phone call I popped it up on Bible works 7 and.

Pulled it up for you probably be in error than to try to apply that as MacArthur does well.

I think I think we need to recognize that that as Dr. Wallace points out there are elements of. How these work. You have overlapping entities? You have first entity subset of a second second subset of a third of a first both entities identical, etc, etc.

So there still needs to be some interpretation, especially when you're not talking about personal descriptions of an individual. That's when it gets. You know a little more. It Is what what God has done in x223 is according to one thing.

But it doesn't make the the two elements identical to one another. We need to need to understand how they're related to one another and I think Wallace brought that out in those comments there.

Yeah, obviously the relationship can't be denied that there's but there's a relationship between the two, but it right.

Certainly certainly I think one of the things the things that does point out That's important is that they cannot be they cannot be separated from one another. Now that doesn't make them identical. But there are some some types of theology that would separate from them from one another and that that could be.

That could lead to some some difficulties. So I think it's a good observation to to make that you do have that construction there. And it does it is seeking to tell us something. But at the same time as Wallace points out when you're dealing with entities such as this impersonal constructions the idea of a of a exact I Equation there is not necessarily what's being communicated.

Well, I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Okay. You're most welcome. Thanks for calling. Have a good day. I got lost by there. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. There's somebody sitting out there going.

You've got somebody sitting in there doing that for you. No, actually I Saw the call and that's why it's important that you when you call the program Please tell the call screener an accurate description of your call.

Because it helps if there's a specific text and there's a question about it then sometimes I can utilize the resources that I have here and You know, it's not that I'm smart. It's just that I've got lots good resources.

Might I just add that Alpha Omega Ministries does carry Bible works in our bookstore. Definitely does. It'll make for a great Chris. Oh awesome. Chris or your theologian in your family.

And in fact, if you if you put that together with the with the Todd's CD It would just put them under the tree together boy. You're ready to go. How do you like that for on-the-fly advertising that the depth of the we're we are professionals here.

Excellence in webcasting. We probably can't use that somebody else right sue us or something like that, but. Someone who has millions and millions and millions of dollars. Might take our hundreds and hundreds of dollars.

Yeah, sky man was just noticing I have Bible works. Mm-hmm, and I noticed that sky man liked Bible works. Barron. He liked Leibronics. So I think part of it was because at that stage Leibronics would like eat every possible portion of RAM.

Your computer. If you had that thing even minimized it was just like oh back to the days of the 286 SX. Remember those those are great. They were oh, I am dating myself there aren't I yes right after the 80 88.

Yes, murder 286. They weren't around very long, but yeah, they weren't around very long for a good reason. Well, then we went to the 386 and then the 486 and yes, it was great then came along the Pentium.

The younger people are going man. He knows he remembers all that stuff. That's terrible all right. Let's take another quick Staples call before we get back to the you know algo's gonna. Be really upset that we haven't Gotten back to the because we could actually finish up the debate today if I wasn't taking time on other things.

But I did want to play this one because the Calvinist in the audience will enjoy this. It's always enjoyable whenever Tim Staples talks about Calvinism because. Just wow you know when you have a former assemblies of God youth pastor.

It becomes a Roman Catholic. The result in discussions of Calvinism is always just a tad bit on the entertaining side, okay?

I'm relaying a question for a friend so forgive me if it's a little vague, but she was at a talk Medical ethics, and it was just a Christian group in general and the gentleman said something kind of awfully about preferring the view of the intellect.

He prefers Calvin's view versus st. Thomas's view and she told me that I was really confused by what he meant by that and We were wondering if you might be able to a little bit. I'm gonna try and relay this to her so I'll run up and listen to you and try and remember all right.

Well.

I'll tell you what. Matthew. I would love to sit down with whoever that was. Because I you know it's it's hard to to respond to them because I'm not sure exactly Where they're coming from. However, I will say this there is a radical difference Between the view of John Calvin and the view of st. Thomas Aquinas when it comes to the illumination of the intellect in our relationship with God.

John Calvin taught as you I'm sure you know under the acronym of tulip as it was developed Among you know the Calvinist.

Total depravity. Of course tulip came along 50 years after John was dead, but.

Anyway. Which which is? Completely I mean let's say radically different than what what st. St. Thomas would have taught. Earth that st. Thomas did teach. Calvin taught that we are so utterly and absolutely depraved that we have no free will.

We have no ability to reach out to God whatsoever. In fact His belief in our total depravity was so complete that we cannot even cooperate with God's grace in a meritorious way. Because we are as it were so much puppets in the hands of God.

I.

Remember Calvin saying that don't you. Because the way he's presenting it here. It sounds like he's actually giving Calvin's view and of course He's he's not giving Calvin's view in using terminology like we're just puppets in the hands of God.

You know I but then again can we really blame him because I mean.

George Bryson does the same thing so his belief of total depravity would lead I. I believe you know. It's it's the first that leads to. You know the limited atonement Irresistible grace, that's the L and the I and the P the perseverance in grace when you begin with An unconditional election.

I forgot the you there didn't write the unconditional election when you begin with this notion.

What where'd that voice come from you right? Sounds like his bodyguards in the back going. I know Calvin's like Sunni Islam. I should mention.

Oh Calvin very much like that that God is so awesome. And we are so evil that that there can be no cooperation. God simply chooses whom he will. I.

Bet you got that one from Geisler. It's like Sunni Islam, you know. You know let's let's ignore the utter transcendence of God in Sunni Islam and Let's ignore that you know Calvin's section on presentation election actually comes right after the prayer Section which is the longest section and the Institute's and that so there's this massive theological difference between the two.

At that point in regards to God's purposes and rats. Let's not worry about that. Let's just let's just throw these together and and since there's some surface-level similarities and and unfortunately he certainly isn't the only one Who does that there are lots of other folks by the way just before I go back to that?

I think I I mentioned in the last program finished King James only controversy. I might even have galleys as long as I can get these images. I'm waiting for by November so Don't know when it'll be available, but they'll they'll do it probably fairly fairly quickly.

I'm on to the Potter's freedom. I Finished putting together the appendix in response to Geisler Man going through that reminded me. It's been a number of years of just how bad Geisler's response to Potter's freedom was Wow.

Still Absolutely convinced that Geisler did not write more than ten words of it. It was his beginning logic class and those folks were bad logic oh Man oh just just horrible, but anyways, I'm adding sections on first in the 410 and second Peter to one and So hopefully very very soon the next edition of the Potter's freedom with a new cover Will be coming out as well, so those of you who've been asking about that that's that's coming up and just mentioning Geisler at that point because he likes to do the Islam thing and Calvinist thing and I wouldn't be surprised.

That's where staples got it all right John.

You're going to heaven. Tim Staples hell Darren hell Chanel hell. All right. We'll pick John out. You you go to heaven and man has nothing to say about it. There's no cooperation. In fact He cannot cooperate with God's grace.

This is very different than st. Thomas Aquinas and mentioned Thomas Aquinas's side of just a briefly. That's right st. St. Thomas much in line with st. Augustine. And st. Augustine who would talk about the difference between cooperating graces and operating graces.

Meaning that yes, there are some graces that we receive from God. They are Absolutely independent of us in every sense of the word. The first grace as Thomas would call it. St. Augustine calls it the operating grace.

For example the grace of baptism. There is nothing that we can do to merit this initial grace of salvation from God. God gives it and. And there's nothing we can do to merit it. However God also gives graces.

That we must cooperate and that's where Augustine talks about cooperating grace as st. Thomas Aquinas will as well. We must cooperate with these graces in order for them to be a factual in our lives now.

John Calvin taught Irresistibility of grace. No Thomas says we can resist grace now.

Let let here comes. The only reason I've gone this far because isn't overly exciting is he's he's actually about to throw out I was. You can always tell When people start talking about irresistible grace if they have a if they have a clue what the actual issues are by what kind of text are going to use if they go to act 7 and Talking about how they always resisted the Holy Spirit Then you know they really aren't thinking about the issue there.

They've just looked it up in a book. They read Vance so they read Bryson or something. They don't understand that we're talking about the grace of God that brings salvation and that that's not what act 7 is talking about and that we make these distinctions and You know you start tell they're just just going with something.

They read someplace. They actually haven't engaged their minds in a serious reflection upon Meaningful reformed writing so let's see. Let's see where Tim staples falls in this realm.

And I should mention that the Bible says we can resist grace to in Galatians. Galatians chapter 5 verse 4 you are fallen from grace. Yeah there you go.

And people I go well. It says you fell from grace. Actually, it's addressing those who are seeking to be justified by the law. They are Separated severed from Christ. They have fallen from grace. In other words.

Those who are seeking to be justified by law. As you either go you either go straight north. That's the path of law or straight south. That's a path of grace. You're not going to get very far going both directions.

They are opposite directions and it has nothing to do obviously with what we believe about the Holy Spirit of God bringing about regeneration and Causing a person to be born again and giving them a new nature.

Galatians 5 has nothing to do with any of that, but that's Tim staples throwing that out there and so on and so forth. So anyway we will get back to the 1993 solo scriptura debate to make algo happy right after our break.

We'll be right back.

Trinity, Gospel Marketing, and a Ministry Break

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A Caller from Iraq on Baptism and Marriage

I'll get back to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon. I was gonna dive back into the debate.

But so when you get a phone call from Iraq You you figure it's probably not cheap to make phone calls from Iraq. So let's talk with Sean. Hi, Sean. How are you doing over there in Iraq what's the weather like today.

Really in the morning. Well. That's understanding. This is not 120 degrees. So it's better than nothing. All right, right. So what's up pretty bad over here, but yes. Yes, sir, go ahead. And you call this a quick question, okay.

Well. You know, it obviously it's always best to have some kind of Discussion about such things. Yeah, I'm assuming that the genesis of the question is we have and we can't come to A conclusion on the subject.

I'm assuming that I could be wrong but. Is that is that a fair. Well, obviously obviously we're talking about two Christians here and I I believe my my Pato Baptist brethren are are my brothers in the Lord and.

But what it raises obviously is the issue of fellowship and The fact that there are many Presbyterian churches and many Reformed Baptist churches that believe that that subject is very important. They want to have unity amongst the congregation as to the meaning on the one side of the sacraments outside the ordinances especially as it as it relates to Whether children are covenant children and how they should be treated as covenant children or whether they are not covenant children in that sense and that they're there to be called to repentance and faith in in a in a way that sometimes Reformed Baptist anyways feel that there are some Presbyterians that don't so raised all sorts of issues that obviously Would have to have some kind of Resolution there would have to be some kind of agreement on the part of the husband the wife as to how?

Those issues were going to be addressed, but obviously from my perspective You would have significantly more unity on the fundamentals of the gospel on How to deal with tragedy and and and world view and so on so forth between a reformed Pato-baptist and Reformed Baptist then you would have between a.

Then then anyone who's Reformed would have with someone who's not Reformed. So I would think there would be significantly more foundation of unity there and so on so forth in in that in that type of context so.

Certainly from my perspective. It's not an issue of being unequally yoked or anything else just a matter of of Recognizing you know having a heads-up beforehand that these are issues are going to need to be yeah, yeah, you bet uh-huh.

Yeah, so okay. You know. The other thing to do is just make sure that you know for a wedding present or something like that you you get my debate with Bill Shishko, so. There you go. Well, you gotta watch it.

Yeah, right you got to watch them. You see you got to watch you know because remember remember back in the Nixon. The Nixon Kennedy debate people who heard the debate thought Nixon won and people who watched it thought Kennedy won.

So you got to do both. Wow. Don't worry. I was even before my time too, so let's let's let's be a little nice there, so all right. Hey, thank you for your call and keep your head down over there. Will do all right.

Thanks for calling all right. God bless. Bye. Bye. Never heard that one before. And is there another webcast on the planet where that kind of a phone call would come in. Probably not but. Yes, and as someone just said in channel We thank this caller for his service very very very true all right so and rich just saluted.