October 16, 2008

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line
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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence
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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.
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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 973 460 to or toll -free across the
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United States. It's 1 877 7 5 3 3 3 4 1 And now with today's topic here is
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James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon
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Yeah, I know we haven't posted the complete itinerary for London yet because it's not finished that's why
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Last I heard London turns the Well, I mentioned last time and on the program and in fact
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Martin called in and and then talked to me after the program But I was of course much earlier. It's now very late over there.
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It's midnight in London right now, but What are you expecting me to do my
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British accent? Is that what you're worried about? No No, you you don't want me to do my British accent. Why are you holding a gun to your head?
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Martin called because I was mentioning that should be our leads could be up in Manchester and I'm down London and there's a distance between the two a fairly substantial distance and So the last thing
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I've heard Right now it's not written in stone last day of heard is that Shabir said well
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It'd be better for him to come to London. So doesn't look like I have to try it travel yet at the moment
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We'll see I had already We'd already gotten in touch somebody in Birmingham and you know, we were trying to you know, make things available, however works out but That's still ongoing and what could happen is the one debate with Shabir could become two debates for Shabir Sort of two parts of the same subject, but it would still be two debates which would make five debates in nine days
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Now people like David would can handle that I Will come home drooling they'll they'll just wheel me up onto the plane in Durham after it's all over with and and then
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Rich will have to meet me and We'll be back and It'll take me a few weeks to Recover from all that.
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I imagine so yeah, it'll be it'll be well, but anyhow the subject would be in reference to the prophecies the alleged prophecies of Muhammad in the
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Bible and Shabir has always said that before he will debate that he wants to debate whether Jesus is prophesied in the
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Old Testament Which sounds strange to people because obviously Jesus is identified as the
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Messiah in the Quran and how would you know, he's Messiah if he wasn't prophesied in the
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Old Testament, so it'll be interesting so anyways, that's the That situation at the moment,
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I hope that all of you in in the back Yes, Oh David would well
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David would will be over there David's doing more debates over there And I am that wasn't what I was laughing at somebody had a solution to your problem.
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Just wear a bib wear a bib Yes, that was after the debates my point was
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I was going to throw myself into these I leave nothing You know you leave it all on the court is the sports illustration, and so you know that's really what
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I had in mind, but anyway The studio audience today is a little bit uppity, but anyhow, so that's what's coming up on the the developments in that particular
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Area I do have some clips to play today your phone calls as well
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What was I looking at now that I've I ran across something on YouTube What was it
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I ran across on YouTube? I know I just downloaded Shabir's debate with Anisha Roche on the same subject subject
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We'd be addressing then so of course I'll be listening to it as many times as I can between now and then But I'm trying to there was something else.
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I thought about mentioning on the dividing line I saw it on YouTube, but I it now has completely vanished from the aging memory and That's that's just life, and you roll your eyes because you're older than me anyways
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You just go yeah, I don't care. I don't look older than you, and that's that's getting a little old so anyway
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I Guess I will play this one first we had some Tim Staples stuff
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Right you ready for this this one You looked weird when I played the beat your chest and say
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I am NOT worthy to receive you thing you get a partial indulgence stuff you know you start Too bad that that's a camera over there's not on something
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I can turn it around so it's it can see you Because what she just did but anyway
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The Trinity smackdown what on earth it was out is algo talking about thing there is a possibility that the there is a soccer
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Nikes Primary student is coming to the United States, and we have already said straight off be happy to debate be happy to arrange it
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Yeah, we'll do it But I don't think soccer Nike is gonna be coming anytime soon
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But that means we may just have to go to India to debate him, but anyway No, I didn't have any to a
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Steve Ray either, so we'll let's go with with Tim Staples here so remember last time we played the the partial indulgence for smacking yourself and saying something
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I You know people you just you shouldn't be so mean you know
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Folks I just find it incredible that people can defend that kind of thing as being biblical
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You know I mean come on read the New Testament and this there was a treasury of merits and power of the keys
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And and if you hit yourself in a certain way and say certain things at a certain time you get a transfer of excess merit and come on, please
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Just gives you just a tremendous example of just how far Rome has gone. Well. Here's a new one As many of you know in the
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Old Testament the name of God is Yahweh and this is called the
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Tetragrammaton yodhey wow hey and a
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Tradition developed among the Jews well, they will not pronounce the divine name. They'll say Hashem the name
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They'll say in they'll use Adonai In its place when reading the
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Hebrew Things like that to get around actually saying Yahweh Because it's too holy to say now clearly that isn't the
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Old Testament's view because Yahweh Revealed himself, and it does cause a certain amount of confusion
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Especially when dealing with like Mormonism for example Yahweh is slaughtered in English as Jehovah Jehovah is not a possible pronunciation
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That's clearly from the Germanic. It's it's just not what the what the Jews said and so Even at that it has an extra syllable in it because they put the the vowel pointing for Adonai Into Yahweh Yahweh is two syllables
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Adonai is three, but they Basically create a form that is supposed to go hey look
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I'm the divine name don't say me because I've got too many vowels for the number of consonants I have type of a thing and yet it still comes across as Jehovah and yada yada yada, so anyway
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The Jews don't pronounce it, and I've mentioned a couple times in the vying line over the years that if you go into a
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Hebrew bookstore a Jewish bookstore be very careful If you really want to demonstrate that you're a you're a goy goyim you're one of those
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Gentiles and go ahead and you know pop that up and they'll look at you like oh, thank you very much and That kind of thing so anyway
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Yahweh however when you're dealing with Mormons comes across Jehovah and the
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Mormons believe that Jehovah and Elohim are separate distinct gods and so since It's difficult for some people to know where the name
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Yahweh is in the Old Testament It's very easy to see LORD in all caps is Yahweh. You know some
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English translations actually do use it but Most use LORD as a convention
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But we seem to miss it because of that we don't we don't see how often it's there Because we don't recognize the existence of Tetragrammaton thousands of thousands of times in the
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Old Testament well with all of that as the background and it does come out because I mean if you want to demonstrate that Jesus is
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Yahweh if You want to demonstrate that the Old Testament? Uses certain phraseology and terminology of Yahweh that the
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New Testament writers apply to Jesus and to him alone in a very specific Way that could only be applicable to him if he's truly deity
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You know John 12 and Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12 in comparison with Psalm 102 25 27 all those things
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It's important to understand a little something about the Tetra the Tetragrammaton so with that in mind.
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Let's listen to a recent call Tim Staples on Catholic answers live
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Just real quick. I am in the choir and my choir director told us like I think a week ago
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That we can no longer sing songs that have the word Yahweh That's correct.
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That's correct. That is that just recently came down from the Vatican Spearheaded by our
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Holy Father Pope Benedict the 16th, and it's really a it's a beautiful thing now
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Remember Carrie this is when it comes to the liturgy It's it's not that you can't say the word
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Yahweh, you know like on the air right now. We're saying yeah, oops we messed up Oh, no, no, no we we can do but it does say liturgically out of great reverence
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You know our Holy Father has a wonderful relationship with the
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Jewish faith and With the the greatest some say the greatest mind in the in Judaism today rabbi
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Neusner Whom he really if you read his book Jesus of Nazareth it oh my it is such a powerful book
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But but he spends a good portion of time talking about responding to as well as agreeing with Rabbi Neusner on a number of things, but it's very much goes back to our own
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Christian roots as Pope Benedict has pointed out You know the early church you will not find
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Christians in the early centuries using the term Yahweh It's always curious in Greek you know and later on and you know when
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Latin and and Coptic and such you you you don't see the word Yahweh used
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And it's really out of that respect for the divine name that comes right out of our Jewish roots. It's our
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Holy Father I think it's beautiful that he's he's bringing that back liturgically and In that sense joining us
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You know closer with our Jewish elder brothers and sisters so to speak and and I think it's a way of opening up communication lines with them as well
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Hey, we're with you on this We respect you just as our Holy Father in in his book
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Jesus of Nazareth You know he praises rabbi Neusner for some of the incredible insights that rabbi
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Neusner has Into not just the Old Testament But his reading of Jesus how rabbi
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Neusner's brings out the fact that Jesus claimed to be God in very deep ways
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But of course rabbi Neusner came to the wrong conclusion. He said as a conclusion I reject I don't believe
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Jesus is the Messiah because he claims to be God our Holy Father in a Respectful way says yes, he did claim to be
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God, but here's why he is God So you know I think
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Pope Benedict in in the same spirit of John Paul II is really teaching us about what real
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Dialogue is we respect our brothers and sisters of all faiths
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And we agree with them in it so far as they teach truth We can join with them and agree with them, but we never leave it there
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We then go a little bit further and help them to see The fullness of the faith that we that we have okay,
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Carrie So You can't in the liturgy use the divine name any longer.
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I find that Absolutely fascinating I would assume that would mean I wonder what that isn't there isn't the
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Jerusalem Bible one of The translations used in the liturgy of modern
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Rome, and I'm pretty certain it uses Yahweh in the Old Testament so that would certainly
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Discourage any future English translations from more accurately rendering the name
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Yahweh I Personally I see no reason for using Lord for Yahweh in the
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Old Testament I I don't it is not a matter of showing respect to Jewish tradition or Jewish people
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It's a matter of accurately translating the Word of God. It was there It's right there on the page the
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Jewish person admits. It's right there on the page You're not trying to offend somebody trying to be accurate and we believe those scriptures are just as much ours as they are theirs so I Found that to be a rather a rather interesting
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Interesting direction to go that and I had not heard that so I I learned something new
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Let's go ahead and take a phone call real quick and then continue with some other clips as well Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one.
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Let's talk with Roy. Hi Roy Hello Yes, sir,
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I Hey, I'm just reading John McArthur's commentary today, and he mentioned that the
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Granville Sharpe rule applied to Acts 223 the pre -determined plan and for knowledge of God And then
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I found some stuff online that was saying that it's not applicable there probably from the best I could tell it was because it's not the pronoun or the
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The nouns aren't personal What what's your take on that? well actually the the best expert
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I know of on the subject of Granville Sharpe constructions is dr. Daniel Wallace of Dallas Seminary his doctoral dissertation was on the
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Greek article and with specific and special reference to Granville Sharpe constructions and so his
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Greek syntax published by Zondervan has a huge section certainly larger than any other grammar
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I've ever run into on the subject of the article and on Granville Sharpe constructions and under the section of both entities identical
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Section two says exegetically and theologically significant texts. There are several ambiguous impersonal
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TSKS constructions or We're talking about Granville Sharpe basically Some of which are exegetically significant three of them will be taken up here and the first one is
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Acts 2 23 And his comment is if for knowledge defines predetermination this opens the door that according to one definition of prognosis
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God's decree is dependent on his omniscience But if the terms are distinguishable the relationship may be reversed that is
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Omniscience is dependent on the eternal decree without attempting to resolve this theological issue entirely
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It can nevertheless be argued that the identical view is unlikely the least attested meaning of impersonal constructions is referential identity the relationship between the two terms here may be one of distinctness or the subsumption of one under the other in the context of Acts 2 and in light of Luke's Christological argument from prophecy and pattern the most likely option is that prognosis is grounded in the predetermined plan of God Horace men a bully for those who don't want to get lost in the
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Greek thus foreknowledge is a part of the predetermined plan for one of the Focuses the foci of the chapter is on the divine plan in relation to the
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Messiah's death and resurrection Thus God's decrees are not based on him simply for knowing what human beings will do rather Humanity's actions are based on God's foreknowledge and predetermined plan.
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That is page 288 of at least the version that I had there has
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I think since I purchased this There has been a smaller version that has been published as well because the original was
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Big enough to cause people's backs to go out of whack while they're carrying it It's available it's available electronically you can if you have if you have libra nix you can get for that and If you have
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Bible works, you can get it for that as well. That's how when I saw your phone call I popped it up on Bible works 7 and Pulled it up for you.
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Well perfect So that would probably be in error than to try to apply that as MacArthur does well
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I think I think we need to recognize that that as Dr. Wallace points out there are elements of How these work you have overlapping entities you have first entity subset of a second second subset of a third of a first Both entities identical etc.
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Etc. So there still needs to be some interpretation, especially when you're not talking about personal descriptions of an individual that's when it gets
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You know a little more It is what what God has done next to 23 is according to one thing
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But it doesn't make the two elements identical to one another we need to need to understand how they're related to one another and I think
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Wallace brought that out in those comments there Yeah, obviously the relationship can't be denied that there's but there's a relationship between the two, but it right
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Certainly certainly certainly I think one of the things the things that does point out That's important is that they cannot be they cannot be separated from one another
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Now that doesn't make them identical But there are some some types of theology that would separate from them from one another and that that could be
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That could lead to some some difficulties So I think it's a good observation to to make that that you do have that construction there
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And it does it is seeking to tell us something But at the same time as Wallace points out when you're dealing with entities such as this impersonal constructions the idea of a of a exact I Equation there is not necessarily what's being communicated
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Well, I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Okay. You're most welcome. Thanks for calling I got less, but eight seven seven seven five three three three four one
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There's somebody sitting out there going you've got somebody sitting in there doing that for you. No, actually I Saw the call and that's why it's important that you when you call the program
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Please tell the call screener an accurate description of your call Because it helps if there's a specific text and there's a question about it then sometimes
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I can utilize the resources that I have here and It's not that I'm smart.
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It's just that I've got lots good resources Might I just add that Alpha Omega Ministries does carry
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Bible works in our bookstore definitely does But it'll make for a great
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Chris. Oh awesome Chris or your theologian in your family And in fact, if you if you put that together with the with the
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Todd's CD It would just put them under the tree together boy. You're ready to go Ah How do you like that for on -the -fly advertising that the debt to the we're we are professionals here excellence in webcasting
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I'll have you probably can't use that somebody else right sue us or something like that, but Someone who has millions and millions and millions of dollars
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Might take our hundreds and hundreds of dollars Yes Yeah, sky man was just noticing
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I have Bible works mmm, and I noticed that sky man liked Bible works better And he liked
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Leibronics, so I think part of it was because at that stage Leibronics would like eat every possible portion of RAM If you had that thing even minimized it was just like oh back to the days of the 286
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SX remember those Those are great. They were oh I am dating myself there aren't
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I yes right after the 8088. Yes murder 286. They weren't around very long, but yeah They weren't around very long for a good reason
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Well, then we went to the 386 and then the 486 and yes, it was great then came along the
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Pentium The younger people are going man. He knows he remembers all that stuff. That's terrible all right
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Let's take another quick staples call before we get back to the you know algo's gonna. Be really upset that we haven't
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Gotten back to the because we could actually finish up the debate today if I wasn't taking time on other things
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But I did want to play this one because the Calvinist in the audience will enjoy this It's always enjoyable whenever Tim Staples talks about Calvinism because Just Wow you know when you have a former assemblies of God youth pastor
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It becomes a Roman Catholic the result in discussions of Calvinism is always just a tad bit on the entertaining side, okay?
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I'm relaying a question for a friend, so forgive me if it's a little vague, but she was at a talk
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Medical ethics, and it was just a Christian group in general and the gentleman said something kind of off late about preferring the view of the intellect
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He prefers Calvin's view versus st. Thomas's view and she told me that was really confused by what he meant by that and We were wondering if you might be able to a little bit
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I'm gonna try and relay this to her, so I'll write up and listen to you and try and remember all right Well, I'll tell you what
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Matthew. I would love to sit down with whoever that was Because I you know it's it's hard to to respond to them because I'm not sure exactly
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Where they're coming from however I will say this there is a radical difference between the view of John Calvin and the view of st.
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Thomas Aquinas when it comes to the illumination of the intellect in our relationship with God John Calvin taught as you
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I'm sure you know under the acronym of tulip as it was developed Among you know the
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Calvinist Total depravity Of course tulip came along you know 50 years after John was dead, but anyway
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Which which is Completely I mean let's say radically different than what what st.
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St. Thomas would have taught earth that st. Thomas did teach Calvin taught that we are so utterly and absolutely depraved that we have no free will
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We have no ability to reach out to God whatsoever in fact His belief in our total depravity was so complete that we cannot even cooperate with God's grace in a meritorious way
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Because we are as it were so much puppets in the hands of God I Remember Calvin saying that don't you
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Because the way he's presenting it here. It sounds like he's actually giving Calvin's view and of course.
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He's he's not Giving Calvin's view in using terminology like we're just puppets in the hands of God You know
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I but then again can we really blame him because I mean George Bryson does the same thing so you know his belief of total depravity would lead to I I believe you know it's it's the first that leads to You know the limited atonement irresistible grace.
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That's the L and the I and the P the perseverance in grace when you begin with An unconditional election
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I forgot the you there didn't write the unconditional election when you begin with this notion My where'd that voice come from you right?
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Sounds like his bodyguards in the back going. I know Calvin is like Sunni Islam.
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I should mention Calvin very much like that that God is so awesome
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And we are so evil that that there can be no cooperation God simply chooses whom he will
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I? Bet you got that one from guys It's like Sunni Islam.
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You know You know let's let's ignore The utter transcendence of God in Sunni Islam, and let's ignore that You know
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Calvin's section on presentation election actually comes right after the prayer section which is the longest section in the
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Institutes and that so there's this massive theological difference between the two At that point in regards to God's purposes and rats.
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Let's not worry about that Let's just let's just throw these together and and since there's some surface level similarities
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And and unfortunately he certainly isn't the only one who does that there are lots of other folks by the way just before I go back to that I think
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I Mentioned in the last program finished King James only controversy I might even have galleys as long as I can get these images.
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I'm waiting for by November so Don't know when it'll be available, but they'll they'll do it probably fairly fairly quickly.
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I'm on to the Potter's freedom I Finished putting together the appendix in response to Geisler Man going through that reminded me.
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It's been a number of years of just how bad Geisler's response the Potter's freedom was
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Wow Still absolutely convinced that Geisler did not write more than ten words of it
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It was his beginning logic class and those folks were bad logic
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Man oh Just just horrible, but anyways. I'm adding sections on first in the 410 and 2nd
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Peter 2 1 and So hopefully very very soon the next edition of the
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Potter's freedom with a new cover Will be coming out as well so those of you who've been
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Asking about that that's that's coming up and just mentioning Geisler at that point because he likes to do the Islam thing and Calvinist thing and I wouldn't be surprised.
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That's where staples got it All right, John you're going to heaven Tim Staples hell Darren hell
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Chanel hell all right We'll pick John out you you go to heaven and the man has nothing to say about it.
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There's no cooperation in fact He cannot cooperate with God's grace. This is very different than st.
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Thomas Aquinas I mentioned Thomas Aquinas aside of just briefly that's right st. St. Thomas much in line with st.
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Augustine And st. Augustine who would talk about the difference between cooperating graces and operating graces
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Meaning that yes, there are some graces that we receive from God they are Absolutely independent of us in every sense of the word the first grace as Thomas would call it
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St. Augustine calls it the operating grace For example the grace of baptism there is nothing that we can do to merit this initial grace of salvation from God God gives it and And there's nothing we can do to merit it however
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God also gives graces that we must Cooperate and that's where Augustine talks about cooperating grace as st.
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Thomas Aquinas will as well We must cooperate with these graces in order for them to be effectual in our lives now
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John Calvin taught Irresistibility of grace no Thomas says we can resist grace
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Now let let here comes the only reason I've gone this far because this isn't overly exciting Is he's he's actually about to throw out
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I? Was you can always tell? When people start talking about irresistible grace if they have a if they have a clue what the actual issues are by what kind of text are going to use if they go to act 7 and Talking about how they always resisted the
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Holy Spirit Then you know they really aren't thinking about the issue there. They've just looked it up in a book
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They read Vance so they read Bryson or something They don't understand that we're talking about the grace of God that brings salvation and that that's not what act 7 is talking about and that we make these distinctions and You know you start tell they're just just going with something they read someplace they actually haven't engaged their minds in a serious reflection upon Meaningful reformed writing so let's see let's see where Tim Staples falls in this realm
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And I should mention that the Bible says we can resist grace to in Galatians Galatians chapter 5 verse 4 you are fallen from grace
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Yeah there you go And people I go well
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It says you fell from grace Actually, it's addressing those who are seeking to be justified by the law
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They are Separated severed from Christ they have fallen from grace in other words
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Those who are seeking to be justified by law as you either go you either go straight north
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That's the path of law or straight south. That's a path of grace. You're not going to get very far going both directions they are opposite directions and it has nothing to do obviously with what we believe about the
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Holy Spirit of God bringing about regeneration and Causing a person to be born again and giving them a new nature
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Galatians 5 has nothing to do with any of that, but that's
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Tim Staples throwing that out there And so on and so forth so anyway.
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We will get back to the 1993 solo scriptura debate to make I'll go happy right after our break.
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We'll be right back It's not an easy way, it's a journey to the
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Sun Following Jesus It's a walk of praise
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The Trinity is a basic teaching of the
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Christian faith it defines God's essence and describes how he relates to us James White's book the
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Forgotten Trinity is a concise understandable explanation of what the Trinity is and why it matters It refutes cultic distortions of God as well as showing how a grasp of the significant teaching leads to renewed worship and deeper understanding of what it means to be a
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Christian and Amid today's emphasis on the renewing work of the Holy Spirit the Forgotten Trinity is a balanced look at all three persons of the
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Trinity dr. John MacArthur senior pastor of Grace Community Church says James White's lucid presentation will help lay person and pastor alike highly recommended
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You can order the Forgotten Trinity by going to our website at a omen org Omega ministries is pleased to introduce the
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Lord in the bookstore at a omen org You Hello everyone, this is
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Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program
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The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every
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Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha to Omega ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses
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Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior?
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We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well
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Support Alpha and Omega ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.
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Thank you Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality
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Even more disturbing some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in their book
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The same -sex controversy James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the
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Bible's teaching on the subject Explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including
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Genesis Leviticus and Romans Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner
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They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people the same -sex controversy
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Defending and clarifying the Bible's message about homosexuality Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen or And Welcome back to the dividing line on a
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Thursday afternoon. I was gonna dive back into the debate But so when you get a phone call from Iraq You you figure it's probably not cheap to make phone calls from Iraq.
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So let's talk with Sean. Hi, Sean Hey there, dr. White. How are you doing over there in Iraq?
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What's the weather like today? It's not too bad. Well Chilly actually right now, but really it's about 2 in the morning.
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Well That's understandable. At least it's not 120 degrees. So it's better than nothing.
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All right, right. So what's up pretty bad over here, but yes Yes, sir, go ahead
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Yeah Fourth time I've called you before from Fort Carson, Colorado Fort Benning, Georgia, Fort Drum, New York, so, you know odds are
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I'd eventually be over here too, but Just Quick question.
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I've asked a few others mostly from ministers of my own denomination on this What's your opinion on marriage between a reformed
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Pato Baptist and a reformed Baptist? And you call this a quick question, okay
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Well You know, it obviously it's always best to have some kind of Discussion about such things.
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I'm assuming that the genesis of the question is we have and we can't come to A conclusion on the subject.
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I'm assuming that I could be wrong but Is that is that a fair Well, obviously obviously we're talking about two
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Christians here and I I believe my my Pato Baptist brethren are are my brothers in the
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Lord and But what it raises obviously is the issue of fellowship and The fact that there are many
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Presbyterian churches and many reformed Baptist churches that Believe that that subject is very important They want to have unity amongst the congregation as to the meaning on the one side of the sacraments outside the ordinances especially as it as it relates to whether children are covenant children and how they should be treated as covenant children or whether They are not covenant children in that sense and that they're there to be called to repentance and faith in in a in a way that sometimes
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Reformed Baptist anyways feel that there are some Presbyterians that don't so erased all sorts of issues that obviously
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Would have to have some kind of Resolution there would have to be some kind of agreement on the part of the husband the wife as to how
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Those issues were going to be addressed, but obviously from my perspective
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You would have significantly more unity on the fundamentals of the gospel on how to deal with tragedy and and and worldview and so on so forth between a reformed
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Pato Baptist and reformed Baptist then you would have between a
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Then then anyone who's reformed would have with someone who's not reformed So I would think there would be significantly more foundation of unity there and so on so forth in in that in that type of context, so certainly from my perspective, it's not an issue of being unequally yoked or anything else just a matter of of Recognizing, you know having a heads up beforehand that these are issues are going to need to be
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Yeah, yeah, you bet uh -huh yeah, so okay, you know
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The other thing to do is just make sure that you know for a wedding present or something like that you you get my debate with Bill Shishko, so There you go
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Well, you gotta watch Yeah, right. You got to watch them. You see you got to watch you know because remember remember back in the
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Nixon The Nixon Kennedy debate people who heard the debate thought
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Nixon won and people who watched it thought Kennedy won So you got it. You got to do both Wow Don't worry.
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I was even before my time too. So let's let's let's be a little nice there. So all right
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Hey, thank you for your call and keep your head down over there Will do all right.
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Thanks for calling. All right. God bless. Bye. Bye I've never heard that one before And is there another webcast on the planet where that kind of a phone call would come in probably not but Yes, and as someone just said in channel
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We thank this caller for his service very very very true. All right, so and Rich just saluted
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So I'm not sure if he's an officer or not, but hey since we're not we'll salute anyways All right, let's get back to where we were before if I can find it here there we are and See if we can't get a little bit more done on the
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Madrid debate and We've only got let me look at this here is only about half an hour left So we were not to get through all today
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But as long as I can keep myself from talking too much, we might actually get something accomplished here
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God's ultimate authority is determined at the end Longest eat most easily
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Contested chain of syllogistic arguments Now just to get us back into the end of the thing here
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What I was talking about was the other side of the Roman Catholic position and that is the concept of the papacy
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The authority of the Roman Catholic Church We had just listened to Patrick Madrid give what they called at that time in Catholic answers these spiral argument for how you know that Rome is the ultimate authority then and Rome speaks for God and so on so forth and it's all sorts of appeals to historical situations and we can use the
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Bible without actually You know requiring it to be a
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Inspired text and all along the line. I mean it really would have been Fairly easily easy to take that entire argument apart and say none of this works
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The idea that well, you know, we can just take the Bible We don't have to make the Word of God and it tells us such -and -so.
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Well, why do you trust it? If it's just simply historical source, then what about other historical sources you might want to you know
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Suggest or are opposed to it and so on and so forth and you have just this long
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Line and at each point each part of the argument is questionable and when you take ten
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Arguments and each time You you put them together and each section is is contestable.
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The whole thing taken as a whole is highly unlikely That is what you have when you have the promulgation of the concept of the
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Roman Catholic Papacy that is how one knows God's ultimate authority is through a a process
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You'll find this on pages 126 of 127 of Carl Keating's book. I think very well done by mr
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Madrid and repeating it that ends with a statement the Catholic believes an inspiration because the church tells him
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So that is putting it bluntly and that same church has the authority to interpret the inspired text That is where the ultimate authority lies.
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I That is that is what's being presented to us tonight as to what's to replace the
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Christian Recognizing the scripture is God breathed and hence accepting God speaking in his word in the testimony of Jesus Christ As the ultimate authority, that's what we're to replace that with.
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I certainly hope no one's willing to do that so there
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I started preaching a little bit there and that's good because that finally after all the
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You know the rhetoric it had at least come out, you know Even despite the use of the canon argumentation and so on so forth now it comes out here's what you are supposed to buy into as being the clear and compelling and obvious truth is this this spiral argument that That Roman Catholicism or at least those and Catholic answers try to use to come up with well
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If you say you can't trust the Bible and you trust quote -unquote the church, how do you know it's your particular version church well, you know you you first do this and then if that's true you do this and if that's true news and and There's the same folks who are saying you can't look at history.
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You you you're violating soul scripture to look at history Well, mr. White, I think the essence of this argument boils down to one issue
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In my case I'm appealing to the church to tell me that this scripture is What it claims to be that Matthew wrote it that it came from the other apostles in the case of the other books
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That it's trustworthy that it's an air which again just in case you're just now turning in he doesn't know Just to say, you know
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Rome can't tell him anymore. It could once But but Patrick was born too late in time to have the certainty that he truly
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Desires to have in that particular thing I believe all of that because the church witnesses to me that it's so it witnessed once but it stopped doing the witnessing now
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See, that's that's one of the real problems with that position But I see that you have the same problem you in a sense caricature or have a pejorative comment for my appeal to authority
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Well, you have the same problem. Mr. White. Now. Did you catch that? He said I caricatured it and then
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I have a pejorative comment Those are not the same things and if you're gonna say someone caricatured it what he's saying is that they've misrepresented it
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I Who gave them the exact page numbers in Carl Keating's book to read
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I did he didn't I? Knew exactly where it was from. I had done my homework and I didn't caricature it.
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I accurately represented it so that's a false statement and Pejorative that did in other words.
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I disagreed with it. I pointed out that it's it's questionable It point after point. How is that pejorative?
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I didn't say boy. That's dumb. That would be pejorative Only a stupid person believe that that's pejorative.
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That's not what I did So both descriptions neither one of which is it all I could you appeal to this authority?
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Independent of its context in the church and say that you just you just know that it's inspired He appeals to history independent of its context in the church and he just knows that's enough to establish
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Roman Catholic authority, right? You just know that it's God's Word, but you haven't given us any evidence for that knowledge you haven't pointed us in any direction other than your own personal studies or your biblical lexicons that you may turn to My own personal studies are biblical lexicons
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He was really smart and on on the fact that he could not even begin to engage the biblical text in a meaningful fashion
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I think he was really trying to cover that up. I think it's where some of the I don't know nastiness came from was that he was trying to you know
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At the Jimmy Akin was there Carl Keating was there, you know, you got a Hometown audience, but as we all know, mr.
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White you are fallible Your opinion on this issue. I'm afraid is worthless and Patrick Madrid is fallible.
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Therefore his opinion on every single step of the syllogism. He presented is Using his argumentation worthless therefore
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Rome cannot be the final authority because the argument you just present he just refuted, right? Let's apply the same standard to both sides
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Let's let's do that The though they probably would rather not do that I want to know with certitude and I would much rather trust the church that is taught for 2 ,000 years
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Than what you say about the Bible the church that has taught for 2 ,000 years
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Well, which church is that mr. Madrid is that the the Church of the Council of Nicaea where the
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Council members did not believe many of the things you define as dogma today that define the very gospel of Christ Is that the 2 ,000 year church?
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Yeah, you know we I know we've gone through each one of these things over and over again, but hey, you know By The way,
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I I guess I did put into the transcript of this I guess I have many many years ago did take the time.
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I did not get my last question I got shorted one on this one. And so, you know,
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I understand how that happens I'm not certainly upset with Pastor Wagner or anything, but I I There wasn't it was given an advantage in when you get to frame the questions that is an advantage to you obviously, so Algo pointed that out to me.
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Mr. White you Claim that sola scriptura is true
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Or probably your claim that sola scriptura is true requires you to say that all apostolic traditions
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Or at least all of them that the church was meant to have are recorded in Scripture Thus far tonight you have merely made this fair assertion
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But no, but you haven't cited any verses to prove it, please cite for us some texts from Scripture Requiring us to say that all such traditions which are mentioned in 1st
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Corinthians 11 to 2nd Thessalonians 2 15 and elsewhere that all these traditions must all be written down Now interesting question not an overly relevant one on a logical basis because What is he attempting to prove?
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Sola scriptura does not require me to say that every apostolic tradition Has been written down in the sense that that assumes that every apostolic tradition is meant to be preserved in the church for each and every generation that assumes an identity between Everything the
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Apostles ever said and the final form of Scripture, which I don't believe in the first place I don't believe that we needed
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I don't believe it was the Holy Spirit's intention to provide to us and Rome would have to agree with this because Rome can't tell
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Us any of these things, but I don't think we need to have a 100 % transcript of Every word that Paul spoke while preaching that night where the young man fell asleep in the window and fell down was taken up dead
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Because obviously Paul was preaching for a long long long long time In fact, probably Paul spoke more words in that one sermon than there are in the entire
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New Testament and so it is not my position that we have everything every
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Apostle every taught ever taught to anybody and That is why when
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I debated Mitch Pacwa, I asked him has Rome dogmatically defined a
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Single word anything that Jesus or the Apostles ever taught that is not found in Scripture one word
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And he admitted as he must in all honesty now
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Rome has never defined a single word outside of the canonical scriptures that was spoken by Paul the
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Apostles And so he said well, yeah, but they've defined apostolic traditions. Well, and as soon as you start pushing this
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Once again, we come back to Madrid's error and that is given the position he took in this debate
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He'd have to believe that there is an apostolic tradition of the canon He can't trace it, but he'll have to believe that there was and he'd have to believe that Paul delivered to the
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Thessalonians Everything that eventually is described as apostolic tradition But that clearly is not the case
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The early church did not believe many of the things that Roman Catholicism teaches today as dogma
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They were unknown to many of those early centuries many of the things that are taught as dogma today were unknown to those individuals and so The whole thing ends up becoming again very circular and this would come out if these individuals would debate if they would defend their position
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They don't want to do that. I Mentioned I believe last week that art Sippo had blown a cog again because Someone had called him about a debate.
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Well, what had happened was there was a student at a University who was trying to find Roman Catholic to debate and one of the people he contacted contacted art
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Sippo So a simple just assumed that was me Trying to find somebody to you know attack and blah blah blah and we talked about this on the blog and once again he you know exploded and and so on so forth
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This same individual also has indicated that Patrick Madrid cannot debate either He didn't say why but he just can't debate a part of is because a lot of these guys require a huge speakers fee a lot of them require
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Multiple four -digit figures just to walk through the door For their speaker fees and that certainly limits the places that they can go
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And the debates they can engage in but anyway the point being we would love to see
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Patrick Madrid Take it and since he claims to have won this debate Hands down and he claims to be undefeated against me.
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Then you would think He would be one well the first he'd be calling us he'd be contacting us and going hey
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How about we have a debate and I defend the Roman Catholic concept of tradition now
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Of course, I don't know if Patrick still holds the same view of tradition that he did at that time.
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It may have changed You know, but we know it's the view whichever one it now is that that becomes one of them
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It's a little bit like a moving target, but hey anyway We'd be happy anyways because just getting a
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Roman Catholic to actually defend these things not just the papacy as a whole though That would be worthwhile. I I will say this we've never lost a debate on the papacy never have none of them
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They've been close to be perfectly honest with you History is just too clear. It's just it's right there, you know there's just too many holes the modern
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Roman dogma is So far beyond what you can you can substantiate given the realities of history that it's not overly difficult to demonstrate
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That that is that they've they've gone way beyond what history warrants. And so anyway, I would say that a
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Defense of the Roman Catholic doctrine of tradition, which he kept saying I'm not gonna defend this evening Not gonna defend this evening.
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Well, you know, I would figure after you know 15 years Maybe it's time to do that and there were a number of times when
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Patrick made comments about you know, that's for another debate for another time and So I think those those debates should continue personally
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I'm not sure why they wouldn't it seems mr. Madrid You weren't listening to my presentation very closely because I mentioned second
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Thessalonians 3 6 He uses the term tradition refers back to what Paul had written first Thessalonians chapter 5 verse 14 there are numerous others such as first Corinthians 11 23 second
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Thessalonians 2 5 and 2nd Peter 1 12 through 15 that all make the same point and that is that what is preached by the
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Individuals who are writing for example Peter or Paul? What was preached to them is now consistent with what they themselves are saying
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For example in first Corinthians 11, he says that he has delivered to them that which he also received
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He has delivered to them in both ways the second Thessalonians says he's preached it to them He has written it to them, but I want everyone to notice what's going on here
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It is the Roman assertion that what is in these supposed apostolic traditions is different than what we have in the
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New Testament Mr. Madrid just said it's my job to prove that there's that what's in the apostolic traditions is
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Is the same now remember this is where? Madrid has has set up a double standard for himself
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He he wants to make the canon a part of you know, basically extra biblical revelation
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He wants to make tradition the honest us but whenever he's challenged on that He will step back and say you just don't understand.
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I believe in material sufficiency He's contradicting himself constantly
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I I honestly believe I need to check this out Maybe somebody has a whole lot more time than I do can do this
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But when did Catholic answers start using the the terminology formal and material sufficiency
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Because I think it was about now. I Don't think it's found anywhere in in Keating's book
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It would be if someone had and I think I do have at least up to that point in time a pretty complete library of All of Catholic answers materials their tracks this rock magazine stuff like that It would be a fascinating exercise for someone who is really bored stiff
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And has nothing else to do to dig through all that stuff and find out when it was that a
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Catholic answer started utilizing this terminology because I'm I Haven't gone back check it out.
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So I'm not gonna say it for certain, but I don't think I had ever heard them using this
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Until this year and I don't think they even used it in the debate in Denver I could be wrong, but I don't remember it and I still haven't had anybody who's found that debate from Denver I I wonder at least
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I gotta remember to look even at Catholic answers because I would love to play some of those sections and just knock some of this the the the stuffing out of some of the arguments they used because it didn't get knocked out of The ballpark like it should have been in Denver at all.
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So But we will continue we got We got a little closer We still have well about 30 minutes we'll have to go in the debate we've got the closing statements to do but we'll get there
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Maybe maybe next week. I'll not want to talk so much. But soon I start hearing these things I want to jump in so we will continue with that Here on the dividing line pray for us as we continue to prepare for London.
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It's coming at us at high speed We'll be here Tuesday, but we'll not be here Thursday next week. I just realized that so we'll see in the violent
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