November 3, 2020 Show with Roger Salter on “George Whitefield & Unconditional Election”

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Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours and we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions and now here's your host

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County Pennsylvania Lake City Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com

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This is Chris Arnzen your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you all a happy election day here in the

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United States anyway on this Tuesday 3rd of November 2020 and it's somewhat comical now that I reflect upon it and quite providential that my guest today

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Reverend Roger Salter rector of St. Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama chose the subject

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George Whitfield an unconditional election and I don't think that that was planned to be a pun today since it is election day here in the

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United States but it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Reverend Roger Salter.

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As always Chris it's heartwarming to be with you and mind stimulating as well and I did actually choose it on the basis of today being election day.

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Oh you did? Okay. I thought that would make it an apt topic. Elections are only for four years divine election is forever.

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Amen and one is extremely flawed no matter which way the election turns out and the other is a perfect divine act but not that those who are elect by God are perfect but if you could let our listeners know about St.

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Matthew's Anglican Church in Birmingham, Alabama. Well we are a small group sharing our facility with a

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Reformed Baptist congregation and we've been in this country my wife and I and family for 25 years now came over from the

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Church of England in 1994 thought that six years would be our maximum but we've been here at St.

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Matthew's for that length of time and we're a smaller group than we used to be but we are dedicated to each other and really unanimously dedicated to the cause of Christ and the gospel of grace because that's how

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Christ is glorified through these doctrines they're just not concepts and ideas they are pointers to the faithfulness of Christ and his enormous mercy towards us so that's why we advocate the doctrines of the

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Reformation. Amen and well

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I'm sorry go ahead just to say we do meet at 930 on a

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Sunday morning. Well I want to let our listeners know that if you want to find out more about St.

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Matthew's Anglican Church of Birmingham, Alabama you can go to stmanglican .weebly

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.com that's STM an abbreviation for St. Matthew's anglican .weebly

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.com and you can also go to rogersalter .com

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and Salter is spelt S -A -L -T -E -R no P as in the sacred and canonical hymn book in the

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Old Testament and you spoke the last time on this program highlighting the teaching of George Whitfield the great

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Calvinist Methodist Anglican of the 18th century and you have chosen to revisit

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George Whitfield but on a different subtopic the topic of unconditional election and if you could first of all give our listeners who may be unfamiliar with George Whitfield a summary of who this great man of God was.

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Well I believe there's a brand new biography by Kurt Smith.

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Yes we've interviewed him on that and gave some of his books away. Yes so I would recommend that and for the moment the large two -volume biography of Whitfield as a

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Canadian author and historian that's also well worth getting for those who are really keen to know

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Whitfield intimately and also the brief biography of Bishop Ryle five

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Anglican reformers of the 18th century. I think

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Whitfield is a tremendous character to know and to study and to think about.

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I think he's still regarded in terms of the English language as the greatest preacher since the

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Apostolic Age and of course he was instrumental in a powerful way during the

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Great Awakening in both North America, Britain including all the countries that make up Great Britain, less so Ireland but certainly

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Wales and Scotland. He was born in Gloucester and he was ordained around about his 20th year and preached so remarkably but so faithfully to Scripture that most of the

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Anglican churches in London closed their doors to him. So he was indeed the first of the great evangelists who preached in the open air and that started at Kingswood among the coal miners in Bristol.

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An absolutely astonishing man, highly active.

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I remember once in a Scripture class at school being told that the great actor of the period whose name

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I need to recall, this great actor who was so well known throughout

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England in his time said that he wished he could pronounce the words of the

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English language with the skill and duty of Whitfield. So Whitfield before his conversion aspired to be an actor but of course his capacity as an orator was used for the purpose of God's Kingdom and not for Whitfield's fame and gratification.

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Oh that's fascinating. In fact one of my favorite biographies is titled, in fact if you don't have it

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I would urge you to get a hold of it. It's out of print I think but there are still used copies available on Amazon.

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It's called A Pastor in New York the Life and Times of Spencer Cone and Spencer Cone was a particular

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Baptist pastor in New York City in the 19th century, pastor of First Baptist Church of Manhattan and he before coming to Christ was a stage actor amongst other things and he was compelled at the time to leave that profession because at that time

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Christians or at least many Christians viewed it as an ungodly career.

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So he departed from that and followed the pursuit of entering the ministry which he eventually did but it's a fascinating biography by John Thornberry who very brilliant and precious brother in Christ who's actually a personal friend who is a really a knowledgeable historian and that biography so moved me and so riveted me that I think somebody should make a movie out of it but anyway that's another issue for another time.

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Now what is it uniquely about George Whitefield's belief and application of divine election or unconditional election that we should take note of today?

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You're not just doing the program on divine election or unconditional election you're talking about George Whitefield's belief and application of it and perhaps we could even start or should start with a definition of what exactly you mean and what historically those reformers who believed in unconditional election what is meant by that?

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Yes and before I do David I've just had a little light bulb go on. David my name's Chris brother.

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That's because I'm looking at the name I just remembered Chris. The actor was

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David Garrick okay the famous actor of the 18th century and he actually said

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I wish I could pronounce the word Mesopotamia as beautifully as George Whitefield and I heard that from an

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Arminian. Anyway with George Whitefield I think the astonishing thing is the great use that God made of this man and such an unlikely man really you know he grew up as virtually a waiter a savior a serving person in his mother's what we would call in or public house and he managed to get a place as a servitor that is everybody's sort of you know person they would call upon to do menial tasks in the university in Oxford but when he was ordained and I think it was a

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Bishop Benson I'm not sure he had been a friend of the Wesley's and particularly under the tutelage of John and Charles Wesley and he says and I can't cite the confirmatory quotation for this but that he didn't become reformational or Calvinistic in his theology through reading

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Luther or Calvin but through reading scripture and he was a great reader of the

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Puritans as well and I think it was his tremendous talking about him as a human being but knowing that everything he accomplished and did was through the grace of God.

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His preaching had such tremendous effects on vast crowds vast crowds when there was no amplification of the human voice and I think when he was preaching on one occasion in America it was estimated that one of the great crowds somewhere near Philadelphia was 30 ,000 people strong and everybody on the fringe of that crowd heard him with great clarity and he was just extraordinary in the way that he could soldier on with so much interruption and persecution from people around him like men coming out of an army barracks and marching up and down in front of him and beating their drums trying to stop people hearing the gospel as he preached it and it was the stunning effect that he had upon people his ability to proclaim the gospel in a plain

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English that everybody understood and yet it was a captivating I use the word performance in the best sense of the word not showmanship but it was something that arrested attention and people simply couldn't close their ears to Whitfield he had such a dynamism and you know with his voice his volume and his gesticulations they just arrested people's attention but the lovely thing was is that he was a man he did struggle with pride but he was a humble man and didn't want to draw attention to himself he was utterly devoted as much as a simple person can be to the

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Lord Jesus Christ and was praying you know preaching about Christ's honor and majesty and wonderful mercy and compassion as the savior sent by God's lost humanity so there's something about him that just is entrancing and captivating that God used this singular man so powerfully in so many areas of Britain and America and his sermons are beginning to be republished now as many as are available

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I guess they were you know taken down by dictation but even in reading them and often a good sermon doesn't necessarily make good literature but Whitfield's do they are captivating and worth a lot of consideration if you can get a volume of them yes and going back to a definition of unconditional election

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I think one of the reasons why people are baffled to learn that George Whitfield and even the great prince of preachers who lived a century later

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Charles Spurgeon many people who are not reformed are baffled that these two men believed in unconditional election because these men fervently and vociferously and passionately pled with sinners to repent and those who are not reformed think that that's oxymoronic or self -contradictory they think that if God has divinely elected unconditionally before the foundation of the world all who will be accompanying him in heaven those who are as elect they think that to preach in such a passionate way or to preach it all and evangelize it all is a waste of time but obviously

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God uses the means of preaching which he commanded to draw the lost to Christ and one of the things

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I should probably clarify something I said in my opening statements when I was contrasting when

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I was contrasting unconditional election with the election that takes place in a country like the

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United States when people are voting for a candidate both things are sovereignly controlled by God I didn't want to give the impression that unconditional election was controlled by God and and the election of a political candidate is not they are both divinely orchestrated and ordained by God but the difference is in an election such as we are going to be having here in this country human choices are used by God to bring about that which he has ordained whereas unconditional election did not involve our choices at all because if we were elected in him before the foundations of the world obviously our choice had nothing to do with it unlike the

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Arminian understanding of election where sinners elect

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God basically because God is looking through the corridors of time looking into the future and seeing who will choose him and therefore he elects on that basis we reject that as being circular reasoning and being just a false teaching but if you could anything further that you'd like to say about unconditional election since it is the core of our discussion well the

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Lord tells us in scripture that the declaration of his word is never wasted and never ineffective but it will achieve its purpose and I think election is an incentive to preaching because you know that it cannot fail it is the means of God calling his people to himself so that you know however few or however many you have before you

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God is directing that word to the hearts and minds of those whom he has chosen so it's the ingathering of the elect of God through preaching and so I do really believe that predestination is an incentive for proclaiming the word of God because you know that it will not fail um excuse me just for a moment

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Chris uh there was also it is also a fact that you know the doctrine of election is not congenial to natural man to think that God is in control and that's something that we're not happy with we want to usurp his sovereignty and exercise our own will and our own desires so it runs counter to the natural thinking and philosophy of man until man is renewed and informed by the spirit of God it's this idea that in a sense ultimately the human will prevails in the great issues of life and it's not the human will that determines the outcome of things it is the will of God and with his people

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God attunes their will to his through the grace of you know effectual calling and uh enabling people to believe in a way that is consistent with the mind of God so the great preachers of the awakening era in the 18th century were preaching particularly to the church a church that had no time even for the doctrines of grace in a mild way it was all to do with moral approach and like the political election of today the candidates are selected by people on their perceived merits

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God doesn't choose people on any on the basis of any perception of those he chooses they are chosen before they were born before they could do good or evil so we know that this is an absolutely unconditional election without reference to those who are the objects of that election it is pure grace pure favor of God and and we love to speak of this process as the effects of electing love because that's what it emphasizes

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God's eternal love for his chosen ones it cannot be diverted it cannot be in any way canceled or overruled you are loved by God before birth during your life and forever after and I think that gives a tremendous sense of assurance to believers to know that nothing depends on their own weakness or strength or failures but on the consistency and reliability of the

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God who chose them and drew them to himself now would you not say that one of the reasons this is an extremely important issue although I am the first to say as a

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Calvinist that I embrace my Armenian brethren as brethren even though they reject the teaching of unconditional election that it is still a important issue because whether it's a conscious thing or an unconscious thing if you reject unconditional election and you have to believe in the concept of election because it's clearly a biblical one if you if you believe in the inerrancy of scripture and so on and of course if you don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture

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I have a hard time believing you're actually a regenerate person a born again individual but if you reject unconditional election then you really are forced to believe whether you recognize it or not that God is choosing some people over others because of something good within them and in this case it would be choosing those that were good enough religious enough self -aware enough uh whatever the reason was that they chose

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Christ there was something superior in them to their neighbor that rejected

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Christ and God is choosing them on that basis of something innately superior in them whereas we who are reformed altogether reject that and it's not only a false teaching but it's a dangerous one isn't it yes it is and um

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I mean Charles Spurgeon used to wonder and not in any way to deny the salvation of those who struggle with election and are not brought to an acceptance of it but it did make him wonder if they really did understand grace and know

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Christ but we all make allowances for the fact that none of us are perfect in our comprehension of the gospel and Whitfield certainly did that I mean he did admire the

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Wesley's and and their Arminian colleagues he simply disagreed with them over the title of one of his greatest sermons the method of grace how

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God does work effectually in the lives of his people but as he says all those who genuinely believe in Christ and lean on him totally even if they misunderstand the nature of grace are still those who are graced by God and saved by their confidence in Christ alone so it wasn't discriminating against Arminian preachers and Arminian believers in the sense that they could not be true believers but he was concerned that they didn't really understand about the nature of human depravity and helplessness and the efficaciousness of divine grace that actually resurrects us and renews us and recreates us which is something beyond the human self we can't do that for ourselves

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I've just got a little quote here and I'm sure you've probably got this volume

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Chris select sermons of George Whitfield actually I do not have that uh my copy came out in um

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I'll just turn it up 1958 and I know it's been republished since by the banner of truth but there are select sermons about a dozen of them and they're superb there is a brief autobiographical introduction from Bishop Ryle that order that biography that sorry biography biographical article by Ryle that I mentioned earlier and then there is a splendid summary of gospel doctrine by a fellow called

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Elliot R. Elliot who was a convert and then close friend of Whitfield who sums up his doctrine superbly in a in I think it ought to be on its own uh you know just distribute it as a leaflet it is superb and one of the things he says is that Mr.

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Whitfield taught whoever according to him received not the doctrine of election does not believe original sinner right wherefore he says again you must either give up the doctrine of the imputation of Adam's sin or receive the amiable doctrine of election with a holy and righteous uh with a holy and righteous reprobation as its consequent and he goes on to say he knows that there are people who cannot uh accept this doctrine for various um you know uh reasons that they have against it but nonetheless um there is a misunderstanding of the deep things of the gospel in this free will approach to the gift of salvation and we're going the natural free will of course god calls his people and gives them a willingness to come yes yeah we're not unlike the slanderous caricature and accusation of those who hate what we believe god does not make us robots he does not force upon us uh either a belief in christ or sinful rebellion we are not neutral people that god forces either way on a whim uh he gives us a willing heart when we are saved through a heart transplant when he removes our heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh and we would otherwise willfully reject him to follow our own desires so it is an it is an act of rescue where all humans willingly and even joyfully and gleefully follow their will but it is a will that cannot please god in the flesh as the bible clearly states so therefore god has to rescue some of us and he choose he chooses uh to save a certain portion of his elect uh not for anything lovely or attractive or good within those sinners hearts and minds but uh just for the sheer good pleasure of his will yeah and we have to go we have to go to our first break so i'll let you pick up where you left off there uh don't don't forget don't forget where you left off so we can make sure that you uh okay you give the point that you wanted to make if anybody wants to join us or with a question our email address is chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com and please as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter don't go away we'll be right back with roger salter after these messages from our sponsors when iron trump and zion radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron trump and zion radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joseph piper president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at greenville presbytery and theological seminary in taylor's south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck white at the first trinity lutheran church in tonawanda new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor anthony methenia of christ church in radford virginia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jesse miller of damascus road christian church in gardenville nevada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor bruce bennett of word of truth church in farmerville long island new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rodney brown of metro bible church in south lake texas and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jim harrison of red mills baptist church in mayapac falls new york and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

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that's gracechurchatfranklin .org this is pastor bill sasa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always was your business shut down during the covet 19 pandemic depriving you of earning any money causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income maybe you've had to close your doors for good the good news you thought was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands you filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the pandemic exclusion clause the pandemic exclusion since 2006 most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic do not give up no matter what state you live in call buttafuco and associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4870 buttafuco and associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation and they are working with lead council to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims it is the best way for you to proceed there's absolutely no risk to you you do not have to pay them out of pocket and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim you need to call 1 -800 -669 -4870 right now trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on long island new york are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit buttafuco and associates here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic call 1 -800 -669 -4870 welcome back this is chris harnson your host of iron trump and siren radio and our guest today if you just tuned in is roger salter who is rector of saint matthews anglican church in birmingham alabama we are discussing george whitfield and unconditional election if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris harnson at gmail .com

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c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com as always give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the usa only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter let's say you disagree with your own pastor over something we're discussing today and you don't want to identify yourself perhaps you're even a pastor yourself you disagree with your co -elders you disagree with your denomination over something that we're discussing well we could readily understand things like that would compel you to remain anonymous but if it's just a general question please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence and uh roger you were about to say something right before the break yes and i've forgotten what it was chris but i've got two brief quotes from elliot's uh summary of um whitfield's doctrine if i could allude to them of course yeah on the issue of people who trust in christ genuinely but um are afraid of the doctrine of election or misperceive it he says of whitfield he held it possible indeed that a man might be in a state of grace and yet not hold this doctrine but he counted it a bad sign in those that deny it for he speaks of it as a doctrine whereby god is eminently glorified and his people greatly edified and comforted and he plainly declares that they who do not believe it cannot hold a right the scripture doctrine of original sin and this is elliot speaking and for my own part i verily believe so too and when any man posed it violently he would speak doubtfully of that person though in other respects he might highly esteem and honor him and i think it's the degree to which somebody becomes ill -tempered and hostile to the word of god that is a warning to people who wrestle against this truth um we cannot change the truth of god uh my grandfather who disagreed with me terribly over these matters would say you can't change what scripture teaches so you might as well learn to yield to it i doubt he ever did in that area he was a missionary in the new hebrides for a time before the first world war but um you know it comes to that point where you honestly just have to kneel before god and say i'm here to be taught by you and not to be hampered in understanding your truth by prejudices and objections of my natural heart so but he was cordial enough to recognize the value of the wesleys but they differed greatly over these doctrines of election and perseverance yes i was very pleased that a dear friend of mine who was not theologically reformed in fact he's fairly well known amongst those in the churches of christ dr f lagarde smith who's been a friend of mine since the 80s but he wrote a book called troubling questions for calvinists and he had the humility to add to the subtitle and all the rest of us but he admitted in his book that he had no answer uh to acts 1348 and those who were ordained unto eternal life believed the order that is stated in there those who were ordained unto eternal life believed not those who believed were ordained unto eternal life but those who are already ordained unto eternal life are the ones that believed and he admitted that he had no answer for that and he admitted that all of the attempts by non -calvinists to explain that passage or refute a calvinist understanding of it he believed were eisegesis that people were actually importing something in the text that didn't exist so i'm glad that he at least had the humility and the honesty to to put that in his book and i just wanted to give you a shout out uh my brother dr f lagarde smith my uh my brother who has disagreed with me for the over these things for years but of has nonetheless remained a friend of mine yeah we do have a question uh from bruce in hoover alabama and bruce says chris and roger thank you for this excellent dialogue on unconditional election which seems to be largely and consistently and regularly avoided in the american church at least the vast majority i've had experience with or attended my question follows this hopefully not too lengthy introduction to the previous premise my theory is that while there may be many reasons why this is so one of the main reasons is that churches pastors denominations they simply avoid the truth of this because number one they don't want to deal with all the difficult questions they have to deal with from their congregations and number two can't handle or provide the answers to the questions people will bring them and number three are afraid that they lose control when they preach the truth of election because they can't sell to their flock anymore that you must attend my church so you will be saved and number four they will not be able to grow their congregation sustain and maintain lofty goals for financial budgets if this theory were valid we what could you tell pastors who had fears on how to properly preach unconditional election effectively and regularly to their congregations thank you for keep charging bruce from hoover alabama well do you have an answer for bruce well it's good to be in touch with bruce again and uh he's a very close friend and a great encouragement i think all of the points that bruce has touched on are factors in this matter i do think that largely it is the fact that we lose control it's not as if we don't have a hope in christ because the gospel is addressed to everyone without exception um it is the fact that you know well christopher hitchens is so well known isn't he the atheist and i read about him not anymore hey no not anymore but his name is sort of infamous with regard to atheism and when he was younger and uh being instructed in the methodist church he actually said and these words are in scripture of course thinking of god not so much christ in a personal and direct way but he said i will not have this man to rule over me and it is rebellion that's what we are by nature we are rebels and i don't think the modern church teaches people that we are hostile to god by nature we talk about faults and mistakes and you know peccadillo's but we are in our nature it is ingrained within us i'm not just i'm not just sinning i am a sinner by nature and that requires the divine miracle of regeneration or new birth to correct that and i don't think we are drastic enough in our uh bringing out to people the reality of the deadliness of sin and that we're already dead in it we are doomed already before we hear the gospel and we are raised again by the sovereign grace of god and so both sin and grace uh cheapened uh the terms are tamed down and we don't get the full impact of them because we don't look at them and analyze them closely and thoroughly and uh this is i think it's this fact that we do not point to the lostness and helplessness of human nature as it is and that we need to be renewed in our nature by god which is not just an influence or something like a bit of persuasion it is a powerful new creation that we are to become by the same power that caused the original creation and the same power that raised christ from the dead and so i think there are a lot of issues and i think some people think of it um well certainly the wesleys did they thought of it as a horrible decree that um you know people would be excluded from the electing love of god but again could i turn just briefly and i'll abbreviate it chris of course it's a longer paragraph but this again is at the end of elliot's treatment of whitfield's doctrine and it is true you see i have said to people in classes talking about election if i were to say come into the vestry and i'll give you fifty dollars you would get it i guarantee it to you and everybody who came would get that fifty dollars but if people don't come they won't get it and if fifty dollars doesn't appeal to them you know i know human nature loves money but you see the thing that if you're offered something you must come and even if you uh you might realize your inability uh to come but the fact is that there is this inducement of christ and this is what elliot is is dealing with here the scripture doctrine of election and predestination as we believe and preach it is no discouragement to sinners no bar to anyone's conversion for our warrant to come to christ is not god's secret decree and purpose concerning us but his inviting calling and commanding us in his word to repent and believe on christ no one indeed can prove or know his election but by his conversion to god and obeying the gospel they that believe are right do not believe in christ jesus from the consideration of their being elected but from the consideration of their being lost sinners whom christ came to seek and to save neither do they who disobey the gospel reject christ and his salvation from the consideration of their being reprobated but because they love darkness rather than light and voluntarily of their own free will choose the way that leadeth unto death nor will anyone be condemned at the last day because god in righteousness righteous sovereignty passed him by and did not elect him in christ but because he would not obey god and come unto christ that he may have life so if i can put it this way and i could probably under be misunderstood in saying this everyone at the end of the judgment get what they want those who want christ shall have him and those who reject christ shall not have him they'll have the alternative their own will uh the enslavement to satan the satiation of the lusts of the flesh people choose what they want the wonderful thing is that god causes his people by revealing his attractiveness and beauty and love and forgiveness and majesty he woos us to him and that changes the direction of our heart and of our desire amen matthew 11 you know jesus tells us that he is the one who has the prerogative to reveal christ in fact if you could if you could write down so we don't forget it matthew 11 so that we can return to that when we return from our midway break we have we have to get a lot longer than normal break now folks because grace life radio 90 .1

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fm in lake city florida requires of us a longer break in the to lake city florida so therefore they air their own public service announcements and other local things during the midway break while we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials and i urge you to make a wise use of this time please write down as much of the information as possible provided by our advertisers please if you're listening to this on a recording don't fast forward through the ads because we need you to respond to our advertisers so that they are happy enough to remain our advertisers because without our advertisers we will not exist or i could ask you if you make it a habit of fast forwarding through the commercials could i please at least count on you then for a financial gift uh since you won't be responding to our commercials perhaps you can then send us a gift a financial gift because we really need financial support in a big way right now we are in some frightening circumstances financially right now and we really need your help but so use this time to write down the information provided by our advertisers so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize them to keep our advertisers happy and also use this time to write down questions to send them to roger salter on unconditional election and specifically george whitfield on unconditional election and our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com

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chris arnson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back after these messages iron sharpens iron radio depends upon the financial support of fine christian organizations to remain on the air like the historical bible society the historical bible society maintains a collection of christian books manuscripts and bibles of historical significance spanning nearly a thousand years the mission of hbs is the preservation and public display of ancient scripture dissemination of scripture to provide tools equipping believers and christian apologetics with evidence for the bible's reliability and to introduce reformation and christian art to a broader audience since 2004 hbs has toured schools and churches throughout the northeast united states reaching thousands of believers and non -believers alike who are hungry for knowledge of the bible hbs's founder daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law is committed to sharing this collection along with an inspirational historical message that will captivate you and your church come journey through their website historicalbiblesociety .org

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the collection includes a complete 11th century bible an actual page of the gutenberg bible from 1455 the first book ever printed the geneva bible the 1611 king james bible and much much more visit historicalbiblesociety .org

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today thank you daniel p buttafuoco attorney at law for your faithful support of iron sharpens iron radio hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnson and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron ironsharpensironradio .com

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where you can click support that's ironsharpensironradio .com when iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joe moorcraft pastor of heritage presbyterian church in cumming georgia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm anthony eugenio founder of the reformrookie .com

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and co -founder of new york apologetics and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor tim bushong of syracuse baptist church in syracuse indiana and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm founder of revealed apologetics and staff member with the historical bible society and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor josh miller of grace bible fellowship church in harrisburg pennsylvania and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm joe bianchi president of calvi press publishing in greenville south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jake corn of switzerland community church in switzerland florida and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

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that's nasbible .com to place your order linbrook baptist church on 225 earl avenue in linbrook long island is teaching god's timeless truths in the 21st century our church is far more than a sunday worship service it's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant it's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement it's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing we're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our lord jesus christ in fellowship play and together hi i'm pastor bob waldeman and i invite you to come and join us here linbrook baptist church and see all that a church can be call linbrook baptist at 516 -599 -9402 that's 516 -599 -9402 or visit linbrookbaptist .org

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that's linbrookbaptist .org we are excited to announce another new member of the iron sharpens iron radio advertising family bhanu gadi owner of three new york pharmacies lee's drugs of floral park long beach chemists and prescription center of long island in hempstead bhanu gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic please contact dr gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media to find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at leesdrugsrx .com

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that's leesdrugsrx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program greetings in the matchless name of our lord jesus christ my name is bhanu gadi i'm a pharmacist in new york which is the epicenter of the latest crisis the world is going through in psalm 139 verse 14 the psalmist offers praise to the lord like this i praise you because i am fearfully and wonderfully made and wondrous are your works that my soul knows very well he saw god's goodness and mercy kindness and the beauty in what god has designed and he has erupted into praise in any crisis or problem brothers and sisters our only fallback position is to trust god's design and once we do there is nothing for us to do but to erupt in praise to him when the whole world is searching for a solution god in his infinite mercy has given us what we need to address this which can be pretty serious such is the beauty of his design knowing that design how can we not add up in praise to our great god like the psalmist did may god bless you and give all of us wisdom to see greater things in his design thank you james white of alphan omega ministry webcast here although god has brought me all over the globe for many years to teach preach and debate at numerous venues some of my very fondest memories are from those precious times of fellowship with pastor rich jensen and the brethren at hope reform baptist church now located at their new beautiful facilities in corum long island new york i've had the privilege of opening god's word from their pulpit on many occasions have led youth retreats for them and have always been thrilled to see their members filling many seats at my new york debates i do not hesitate to highly recommend hope reform baptist church of corum long island to anyone who wants to be accurately taught discipled and edified by the holy scriptures and to be surrounded by truly loving and caring brothers and sisters in christ i also want to congratulate hope reform baptist church of corum for their recent appointment of pastor rich jensen's co -elder pastor christopher mcdowell for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reformed li .net

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that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of corum long island that you heard about them from james white on iron sharpens iron radio was your business shut down during the covet 19 pandemic depriving you of earning any money causing you to default on your rent as you try to survive without income maybe you've had to close your doors for good the good news you thought was that you purchased business interruption insurance as a part of your business liability policy with a major insurance company who told you they are a good neighbor or that you would be in good hands you filed a claim only to be told that it was denied due to the pandemic exclusion clause the pandemic exclusion since 2006 most insurance companies added this clause to enable them to deny your income loss claims in the event of a worldwide pandemic do not give up no matter what state you live in call buttafuco and associates now at 1 -800 -669 -4870 buttafuco and associates is a part of a large multi -district litigation and they are working with lead council to bring what they believe will be a successful lawsuit for these claims it is the best way for you to proceed there's absolutely no risk to you you do not have to pay them out of pocket and there is no fee unless you recover on your claim you need to call 1 -800 -669 -4870 right now trust the law firm where the attorneys at one of the largest business firms on long island new york are sending their own clients for representation during this lawsuit buttafuco and associates here to help business owners rebuild their lives in the wake of the pandemic call 1 -800 -669 -4870 every day at thousands of community centers high schools middle schools juvenile institutions coffee shops and local hangouts long island youth for christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need jesus we are rural and urban and we are always about the message of jesus our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on long island new york by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following christ long island youth for christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959 we have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world help honor our history by becoming a part of our future volunteer donate pray or all of the above for details call long island youth for christ at 631 -385 -8333 that's 631 -385 -8333 or visit l -i -y -f -c .org

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that's l -i -y -f -c .org charles heddon spurgeon once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since it's beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio and don't forget folks solid -ground -books .com

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is a vital a premier a necessary sponsor of this program in order to maintain our existence they have been a key sponsor of this program ever since we relaunched in 2015 after relocating to pennsylvania and we could not survive without them barring a miracle of god and they also have the finest the very finest in christian literature from the past and the present available that they have either brought back into print treasures from the past that they have brought to a fresh new audience some of these books that they've republished are barely heard of today and yet they are absolute gems and also they have published books for the first time by contemporary writers in fact i know that my guest roger salter is very familiar with this fine ministry and knows the founder very well as an addition to that mike gadosh is that not true reverend salter absolutely sir chris yes and uh so please for all of the reasons that you purchase gifts whether it's birthdays retirements whether it is a bereavement gift for someone you know who has lost a loved one whatever the reason is or to replenish your own library to bring to yourself at a vacation please go to solid -ground -books .com

01:10:28

solid -ground -books .com and i urge my listeners especially since we have roger salter on today we usually have an abundance of more than a normal saturation of anglican listeners on the program or in the program's audience i should say when we have an anglican guest so today if you are an anglican you might be especially or particularly interested to know that solid -ground -books .com

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does have some of the finest in anglican literature that they have republished or published for the first time and a couple of names you might want to type into the search engine at solid -ground -books .com

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are ting t as in thomas y n g for steven ting and also isham for thomas garrett isham thomas garrett isham is a contemporary writer uh from an anglican background and steven h ting was a 19th century calvinist anglican uh in new york city but both these authors are excellent and i'm sure you will be blessed by them so either type t y n g or isham i s h a m for thomas garrett isham and and that's not all they have they have other books as well by anglicans and others but please go to solid -ground -books .com

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as frequently as you can and purchase as generously as you can and always mention that you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron chirp and zion radio also folks i wanted to let you know about a conference being orchestrated by my very dear friend andrew rapoport of striving for eternity ministries he has orchestrated the creation conference uh it's for basic training in creation and this is going to be held on november 7th from 8 30 a .m

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to 5 30 p .m and the speakers at this conference include mike riddle and dr anthony silvestro it will be held at the master's church in buck county pennsylvania and for more details go to the master's church .org

01:12:49

forward slash creation training that's the master's church .org

01:12:57

forward slash creation training and also you should always keep handy the website for striving for eternity ministries that's striving for eternity .org

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striving for eternity .org and i hope that you can attend november 7th for this very important conference creation basic training also i want to let you know folks again especially since we probably have a higher concentration or a higher number of anglicans listening today we do have coming up as a guest on monday the 16th of november dr ashley null who is probably one of the foremost premier scholars living today especially on the life of thomas cramner the great anglican hero of the faith by the way uh roger i can't remember if i've ever discussed this with you but are you familiar with dr null very much so i've read the books that are available and they're absolutely superb well he is going to be a guest as i said on monday november the 16th and he's going to be discussing a new work of his titled performance identity the folly of striving to earn god's favor that's performance identity the folly of striving to earn god's favor that's on monday november 16th for 6 p .m

01:14:28

eastern right here on iron sharpens iron radio lastly folks if you love this program and you don't want it to disappear from the airwaves i'm urging you please go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

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click support then click click to donate now you could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion you can also if you prefer snail mail some people still like to mail in checks the old -fashioned way well an address will appear on the screen when you go to iron sharpens iron radio .com

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click support then click click to donate now also folks if you are not a member of a local bible believing church i can help you find a church god willing because i have lists extensive lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet earth and in fact i just got a request from birmingham alabama of all places so i will certainly be giving roger salter's church location and contact information to this individual and we thank you for reaching out but please if you are in that circumstance where you don't have a church home wherever on the planet earth he lives send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and put i needed church in the subject line that's also the email address where you could send in a question to roger salter chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and roger i believe you were in matthew chapter 11 if i'm not mistaken and you wanted to quote something from that passage absolutely chris i i am just struck and what attracts me very much to the doctrines of grace is not just um what we might call scholarship or bible knowledge or study paul in one of his passages and i can't quote it verbatim but exalts us to um make the most to improve upon the teaching that christ gives us and christ instructs his people personally within their innermost being as to these glorious doctrines of everlasting love and election and perseverance all the things that are called augustinian or calvinistic these things come to us from the dear heart of christ communicating with our hearts and that's what makes them so precious because they do glorify him and they delineate the perfection of his saving work most people have a christ who who fails or is in need of human help or we ought to pity him and bring our hands with him there's none of that in the doctrine of salvation according to scripture and i always love this passage it's very much like john you hear in matthew 11 beginning at verse 25 the ending is familiar but it doesn't have its potency and effect until you hear the preceding words which are still not favorite words among many professing christians at that time jesus declared i thank you father lord of heaven and earth that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children yes father for such was your gracious will all things have been handed over to me by my father and no one knows the son except the father and no one knows the father except the son and anyone to whom the son chooses to reveal him and then there's those lovely words that they made so much sweeter and strengthening to our faith come to me see we come to him as a result of his opening away and revealing himself to us come to me all who labor and are heavy laden and i will give you rest this invitation emerges from the of unconditional eternal election take my yoke upon you and learn from me for i am gentle and lowly in heart and you will find rest for your souls for my yoke is easy and my burden is light this is often quoted like some favorite almost innocuous little proverb to people but it's not it's something that christ uh brings to us if we delve into the doctrine of his full ordination the electing love he chooses to reveal himself god the three in one to those in his four ordained to eternal life from before the creation of the world and then that is such a sweet invitation come to me because you're enabled by the grace of christ all who labor uh you know unsuccessfully with the issues we deal with with our sin and human condition and i will give you rest it's this beautiful extension of electing love to us in practical terms and felt terms and experiential terms i just love that passage and of course we know in john 6 jesus says no one can come to him except the father enable him so it's the call and provenient grace of christ and of god the three in one that so attract me and i want to draw just a quick idea if you'll permit me chris from charles spurgeon of course we know that spurgeon adored wickfield who wouldn't if he loved the gospel and in a sermon on uh the substance of all theology which is election spurgeon says this but suppose there should be one of god's chosen who has become so bad that there is no hope for him he never attends a place of worship never listens to the gospel the voice of the preacher never reaches him he has grown hardened in his sin like steel that has been seven times annealed in the fire what then that man shall be arrested by god's grace this is the beauty of it and that obdurate hard -hearted man shall be made to see the mercy of god the tears shall stream down his cheeks and he shall be made willing to receive jesus as his savior i think that as god could bend my will and bring me to christ he can bring anybody and then these two standards from a well -known hymn why was i made to hear his voice and enter while this room when thousands make a wretched choice and rather starve than come because the same love that spread the feast that sweetly forced me in else i'd still refuse to taste and perish in my sin and spurgeon affirms yes sweetly forced me in there is no other word that can so accurately describe my case and i think those of us who reflect on our lives by nature and habit would say that too that we were averse to christ we hated him we hated the gospel we hated divine sovereignty and god sweetly forces us in it's like an emergency when somebody's in danger of fire or an accident or some acute you know hazard we force them out of the way it's our love that forces them and it's divine love for his people that forces us to to rest in christ and at last to come to him submissively and happily and joyfully well we have a uh anonymous listener who says i seem to be breaking out into arguments with my anglo -catholic friends on an increasing frequency and many are challenging me to remain neutral because they believe the via media somewhere between catholicism and protestantism is the safest place to remain to maintain cordiality and love in the body of christ and also for biblical accuracy because extremes are usually wrong how do you approach people with this mindset and do you agree or disagree with it i have problems with the so -called via media because i don't think anglicanism was ever designed to be somewhere in the middle between catholicism and protestantism i believe it was a via media between wittenberg and geneva as to in other words between lutheranism and calvinism yes yes uh i don't think it was ever intended to continue in a catholic vein except insofar as you could say it's a reformed catholic church because it adheres to the ancient creeds and the ancient ancient orthodoxy you know of the early church and through the dark ages with those who still maintain uh a healthy gospel of christ i think the via media is a way the problem with current anglicanism and it's part of the english temperament as well is that it's by nature uh tending towards compromise and inoffensiveness and i don't think you can preach the gospel without being offensive and there is a sense in which we must be extremist i don't mean in a crazy insane way i mean to go to the extent that divine truth reveals the mind of god and that will always be contrary to the tendencies of human nature and will always turn down people say don't be offensive i was in a situation i'm sorry to make this more personal but it occurs to me where we had someone very eminent coming to the church and i was told by a senior clergy clergyman don't preach the gospel to them it would be offensive from a senior clergyman who was supposedly an evangelical and every person of eminence whatever their rank in society we're all equally sinful all equally lost and it's our love and charity to proclaim the gospel in its purity to them and and i just think there's a a wimpishness about contemporary anglicanism and it's been there down through the centuries too the anglican church as an institution goes around just not knowing what it really believes it denies the 39 articles the confessional when they were composed to to bring a cessation to difference of opinion in the church that to me is a confession and you know there are so many anglicans who even will say they're reformed privately that they wouldn't let it be known and and i think this is tragic we are called to go out on a limb for the gospel and and you know i'm i'm by no means brave i can tell you i'm the biggest coward in the world i i won my last fight by 50 yards we really love christ and god will give it as it's necessary we must proclaim the truth in the spirit of the martyrs if our life is at stake god help me i hope i'm never in that situation but if it happens we must be prepared to shed blood for the gospel now i'm saying this because it's easy to say it could be pure oratory but i know that that is what the gospel teaches if i fail christ then i deserve rejection but look at the rejection he suffered and and the death he suffered for our redemption and it seems to me that you know this fear of other people this fear of other opinions this fear of being unpopular it's got to go and you know woodfield and spurgeon and all these great men of the great awakening in the 18th century they were persecuted and hated by officialdom by the leaders of the church but they stuck it through and um you know i i'm just appalled at myself and at others who don't have the guts to stand by the clear word of god and so i feel that predestination is at the heart of the gospel it's that level that strong uh foundational level of the gospel and we don't have to go preaching it you know absolutely every time referring to it as such but everything that emerges from the gospel emerges from the sovereign will and choice of god but you know there is that fact that it's the gospel to him so ever will it's just the people who are armenian think that the will that prevails and is most important is the will of the sinner that is simply not true it's a false and sinful and satanic uh philosophy and theology that hinders the gospel and its power and um you know woodfield was one of those in a long tradition of anglican augustinians because augustine was the great teacher of the church in this doctrine of predestination we think of him as anglican but we're not proclaiming anglicanism as something obligatory as a discipline or as a denomination we're proclaiming it on behalf of the english reformation and we are a reformed church in our constitution and as ryle makes clear looking at woodfield um woodfield was the great uh supplier of the doctrines of the reformation in his time the 16th century reformation they established the doctrines of grace the 17th century history of england you had the pastoral application of it of um electing love both within the puritan camp and the anglican evangelical camp and then in the 18th century and the great awakening you have the evangelization from the reform doctrine so you know it all springs from this marvelous foundation of divine predestination or electing love without which every believer calvinist or arminian or whatever would be utterly lost if god had not made that decision and foreordained the elect from the beginning of well before time amen and we're going to our final break right now it's a lot shorter than the other breaks so if you have any intention to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

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that's ptl bible rebinding .com as host of iron trump and zion radio i frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations a church i've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is grace covenant baptist church in flemington new jersey pastored by alan dunn grace covenant baptist church believes it's god's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshiped and how he shall be represented in the world they believe churches need to turn to the bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship god in spirit and truth grace covenant baptist church endeavors to maintain a god -centered focus reading preaching and hearing the word of god singing psalms hymns and spiritual songs baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship performed with faith joy and sobriety discover more about grace covenant flemington new jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

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or call them at 908 -996 -7654 that's 908 -996 -7654 tell pastor dunn that you heard about grace covenant baptist on iron sharpens iron radio charles headings person once said give yourself unto reading the man who never reads will never be read he who never quotes will never be quoted he will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own you need to read solid ground christian books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the prince of preachers to heart the mission of solid ground christian books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to christians in the present and future and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world since its beginning in 2001 solid ground has been committed to publish god -centered christ exalting books for all ages we invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com

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that's solid -ground -books .com and see what priceless literary gems from the past or present you can unearth from solid ground solid ground christian books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm pastor nate pickowitz of harvest bible church in gilmanton ironworks new hampshire and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rich jensen of hope reform baptist church in quorum new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor sule prince of oakwood wesleyan church in toronto ontario canada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor john samson of king's church in peoria arizona and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck volo of new life community church in kingsville maryland and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor steve herford of eastport baptist church in jacksonville florida and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor roy owens jr of the church in friendship in hockley texas and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnson on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

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that's nasbible .com to place your order i'm dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary i'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where i've been invited to speak and have grown to love hope reform baptist church in corham long island new york pastored by rich jensen and christopher mcdowell it's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of god like the dear saints at hope reform baptist church in corham who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim christ jesus the king and his doctrines of sovereign grace in suffolk county long island and beyond i hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as i have for more information on church go to hope reformed li .net

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that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of corham long island new york that you heard about them from tony costa on iron sharpens iron are you a christian looking to align your faith and finances then you'll want to check out thriving financial we're not your typical financial services provider we're a not -for -profit fortune 500 organization that helps our nearly 2 .4

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that's grace church at franklin .org this is pastor bill sasa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign lord god savior and king jesus christ today and always we are excited to announce another new member of the iron sharpens iron radio advertising family banu gadi owner of three new york pharmacies lee's drugs of floral park long beach chemists and prescription center of long island in hempstead banu gadi earned a doctorate in pharmacy degree and is very knowledgeable on the current coronavirus pandemic please contact dr gadi so he and his expert staff can give you proper guidance amid all the contradictory confusion we are all hearing in the media to find the pharmacy nearest you call 516 -354 -2000 that's 516 -354 -2000 or order online at lee's drugs rx .com

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that's l -e -e -s drugs rx .com don't forget to ask about their discount generic drug program welcome back this is chris arnzen and our guest if you just tune this in has been and will continue to be until the end of the program roger salter and we are discussing george whitfield and unconditional election if you have a question that you'd like to contribute to the program send it immediately because we're rapidly running out of time chris arnzen at gmail .com

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chris arnzen at gmail .com and we do have arnie in perry county pennsylvania who asks a question how prominent is this doctrine of unconditional election in the anglican church of today and would you say that at one time it was a dominant view even though today it may be scarce well it's stated quite clearly in our confession article 17 and the other supporting articles on uh original sin and justification by faith it is the longest article which doesn't necessarily indicate its importance but it is the foundation of crime was thought as a reformer and of the english reformation and it's not very popular today the uh 39 articles have sidestepped even though most anglican ordinands for ministry are meant to subscribe to them uh they just see it as a museum piece 400 years old but the fact is that it was dominant at the reformation dominant in whitfield's era in the great awakening all his great colleagues that we can think of all agreed on this particular truth of sovereign grace and election and so i think it should become i think it should be restored to its place of preeminence in the contemporary anglican church because nothing is more muddled and confused than the denomination of anglicanism uh happens to be in our time and could i have your permission chris to read quickfire about three brief quotes from of course letter of course okay well here's a letter to dear brother h and it begins with i congratulate you on your success at monmouth which is well so i suspect this um anonymous recipient of the letter is harold harris and of course harold harris spent a lot of time as a friend with charles wesley and he would come back to his welsh carbonistic friends and say i think charles is ready to agree with us i think he's going to come over and then charles would go back and come under john's influence again and back away tug of war going on there yes i'll say but here's our whitfield writing to harris since i saw you god has been pleased to enlighten me more in that comfortable doctrine of election at my return i hope to be more explicit than i have been because he's writing from philadelphia god forbid my dear brother that we should shun to declare the whole council of god and then no relief put them in mind he's talking about the people to whom uh harold harris ministers put them in mind of the freeness and eternity of god's electing love and be instant with them to lay hold on the perfect righteousness of jesus christ by faith talk to them oh talk to them even till midnight of the riches of his all -sufficient grace tell them though tell them what he's done for their souls and how earnestly he is now interceding for them in heaven and in another letter he says i hope we shall catch fire from each other and that there will be an holy emulation among us who shall most debase man and exalt the lord jesus nothing but the doctrines of the reformation can do this all others leave free will in man and make him in part at least a savior to himself my soul come not near the secret of those who teach such things mine honor is turning over the page my honor be not that thou united be thou be united to them i know christ is all in all man is nothing he hath the free will to go to hell but none to go to heaven till god work within him the willing to do after his good pleasure it is god who must prevent that his go before god must accompany god must follow with the grace or jesus christ will bleed in vain that god may continue his blessing to us both is the hearty prayer of reverend and dear sir have i got one more yes definitely definitely yes okay this is another letter to the reverend mr h how harris was never ordained but it may be a title that whitfield has conferred upon him as wales greatest evangelist oh the excellency of the doctrine of election and that of final perseverance to those who are truly sealed by the spirit of promise i am persuaded till a man comes to believe and feel these important truths he cannot come out of himself but when convinced of these and assured of the application of them to his own heart he then walks by faith indeed not in himself but in the son of god who died and gave himself for them so i think it's very clear where whitfield stood and i think whitfield is a great example to preachers of the gospel in our day amen we have harrison and mechanicsburg pennsylvania who asks what role do the sacraments play in a calvinist anglican church and even though god is sovereign over all things is there something supernatural going on in the administering of the sacraments or are they merely symbolic they are vitally important to any evangelical augustinian augustinian anglican yes something mysterious or something wonderful is going on that is supernatural christ attends his people with the symbols of his presence and works in their hearts showing them how first of all atonement was made for for us through christ's sacrifice the death of his body the shedding of his blood they point also to the spiritual food that we received from christ through his spirit during our christian walk and they point to what is called that great banquet in heaven that great enjoyment of god and the bliss and fellowship that would be ours with the eternal one when we gain the glory of the kingdom so yes the sacraments are given by christ they are guarantees to us that he's not absent from us even though ascended in heaven he comes to us as we receive the bread and wine and ministers to us in our soul there's nothing magical about the performance there is nothing different about the bread and wine except the use for which they are employed tokens of christ's body and blood given for us so that through trust in him we may gain forgiveness acceptance with god and everlasting life so that even though there is indeed something unique and supernatural occurring during the administration of the sacraments you reject the romish concept of baptismal regeneration and transubstantiation absolutely it's not the sacrament in itself it's not to be adored or trusted in implicitly it is symbolic of christ's work on our behalf his presence with us now the sustaining of our souls and his guarantee it's his pledge that those of us who receive these tokens in genuine faith and sincere repentance will enjoy his fellowship and he will be our host at his table in heaven forever and the 39 articles uh actually one of the 39 articles actually condemns the idolatrous nature of the way rome observes the sacrament uh the way that they parade it and uh view it as actually the literal body and blood of christ so therefore they worship it and this is condemned in the 39 articles is it not it is and the anglican articles and liturgy do not tolerate that interpretation that is superstition and uh you know i'll be honest with you chris i have had good christian fellowship with anglo -catholics um because christ often overcomes the mental obstacles we have in our faith and sanctifies our hearts in spite of the mistakes we make and uh you know i i have learned a great deal from fellow anglicans in that sense but i do not feel there is a place and this is going to rule me out of contact with so many people i do not believe there is a place for anglo -catholicism in the anglican church i wish they would go away and become a set of people in their own right without causing evangelicals to dither over what they want to say because they don't want to be offensive to their anglican brethren that happens an awful lot things we would like to say but we don't want to personally wound people we love and uh so you know i don't think anglo -catholicism and the reform faith in anglicanism are compatible under one roof in fact i'd like you to now close with for about two minutes of summary of what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before we go off the air i think if i could and i'm not capable of doing this in in a summing up really but i think i want people to forget the uh distorted things that people say about election and predestination and interpret it in terms of divine love a divine love for people that will not be thwarted or in any way uh diverted from its objective which is to bring the loved ones of christ into his fold and into his fellowship and protection forever to me predestination and election are just synonyms for divine love and grace which we don't deserve but receive graces amen well i want to remind our listeners that if you'd like to become more familiar with saint matthew's anglican church in birmingham alabama go to stm anglican stm being an abbreviation for saint matthews stm anglican dot weebly dot com that's w e e b as in boy l y dot com stm anglican dot weebly dot com and you can also go to roger salter dot com and salter is spelled s a l t e r dot com i want to you so much roger for always being such a superb guest on this program and i would love to schedule you for our next interview right after we go off the air and i want to thank everybody who listened especially those who took the time to write i urge all of you who are american citizens to go out and vote today and i personally do not believe it is compatible with the christian faith to cast a vote for anybody who gleefully and enthusiastically tries to spread and maintain and magnify the so -called right of a woman to murder her unborn child so that is my two cents on a very important issue on this election day and i hope that uh all of you will prayerfully vote and get out there and vote before it is too late wherever you live but i want to thank everybody for listening today and don't forget those of our anglican listeners to go to solid -ground -books .com