SRR 39 | Roman Catholics and Their Queen

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April 12, 2017

00:01: You're listening to Semper Ephraim on the radio where the Bible alone and the Bible in its entirety is applied to all of life
00:15: There are many people who do not want to hear the truth because it will shake up the false Hope they have that they're going into heaven when indeed they are not
00:31: Christ is our King Scripture is our law Scripture and the laws of our country now collide head -on now just to make it clear
00:43: We don't bow down to Caesar So what does
00:55: Paul do when he gets his big shot at the Areopagus watch him? Now not only has
01:01: Paul not compromised in order to get here But once he's here, he says your worldview is wrong.
01:08: Your philosophy is wrong. It's not just wrong It's an affront to God. You ought to know better.
01:13: You're in sin But the good news is God has extended to you an opportunity to repent
01:31: All right, welcome everybody to another episode of Semper Ephraim on the radio My name is Tim and I'm gonna be your host today.
01:38: We have with us a special guest Timothy Kaufman is back and He's been
01:44: I think he's just been very busy as of late. We haven't had him on the show Recently, but we are going to be covering a topic that I think is pretty pretty important and It's something that I think the church needs to go over again and That is just the
02:04: Doctrine of Mary and the reason why I say that it's it's important for the time that we're in and there's a reason why that the church needs to go over it again is is just simply because We see so many people being drawn into Roman Catholicism and with Tim Kaufman, he's our he's our
02:25: Roman Catholic expert These are issues that we want to address. These are issues that we want to take up and especially right now because it's we're in the 500 year anniversary to the
02:39: Protestant Reformation what sparked the Protestant Reformation in October 31st of 1517 when
02:46: Martin Luther nailed the 95 thesis to the church door in Wittenberg and What it's just it's astonishing
02:55: Brother Kaufman, let me let me I want to introduce you a little bit more but Let me just ask you.
03:01: Are you are you familiar with the Bible Answer Man? Yes, I am so I recently found out that the
03:09: Hank Hanegraaff the Bible Answer Man converted to Greek Orthodoxy and I Decided to tune in yesterday.
03:18: It's a hot topic. So I figured that he was going to be Talking about that on the show
03:25: I tuned in yesterday I actually called and I called it like about 420 as early as I could and I waited on the phone for about 40 minutes.
03:34: I didn't even get to talk to him But during the show he affirmed Roman Catholics as as a true church he affirmed
03:42: Roman Catholicism as a as a true faith and he said that we hold all of the same essentials as as We're in line with them when it comes to the essentials and a caller called in and Challenged him a little bit on it and said we don't hold the same essentials.
03:59: They have a different gospel and Hank Hanegraaff appealed to James chapter 2 and you know just Gave an off answer that just muddied the water and we see so many
04:15: Protestant professing well, he's not he's Greek Orthodox now, but we see so many professing
04:21: Bible believing evangelicals running to Roman Catholicism running to affirming
04:28: Roman Catholicism we have People affirming the the Roman Catholic Pope like TD Jake's and Who's the guy that wrote wrote up the purpose -driven life?
04:42: Let me think what's his name? I forgot his name, but the guy who wrote the purpose -driven life and So it's our goal.
04:50: Is that Rick Warren? Yeah, yes. Yes. Thank you. I had a brain lapse there
04:56: Rick Warren But so many evangelical leaders are leading their flocks right back to What I would say is extremely dangerous territory and so it's our goal in this in this podcast to stand firm on the
05:13: Word of God and to shed some light on these issues and Tim Kaufman is the he has a blog called whitehorse blog .com
05:24: and You can't did I get that right? I always butcher that but yeah, you got it, right
05:30: The formal title is out of his mouth right on a verse from Revelation But the
05:35: URL is whitehorse blog .com, right? I I think last time I said org and so and I we were
05:43: Just so everybody knows we've been having some major computer issues, and I looked it up before before Before we started and then
05:53: I had to restart my computer and I didn't look it up again, but it's a whitehorse blog It's it's out of his mouth
05:59: Not to be confused with the white horse in just so everybody knows that's a different blog site
06:04: But he is a prolific writer He's a contributor to the
06:10: Trinity Foundation, which we would also want to recommend He's written a number of articles on there and you can just search for his name go to the the review archives
06:19: Section in the Trinity Foundation. He also has a couple of as a lecture on the
06:24: Trinity Foundation about Tim Keller And we've had him on the show before to talk about Tim Keller and then we've also had him on the show before to talk about the
06:34: Roman Catholic Mass and So today what we're going to be talking about is the
06:39: Doctrine of Mary and we're going to be confronting what Roman Catholicism teaches with regards to that and Let me just let me just tell everybody this
06:53: Brother Kaufman is is really He is he does a lot of work and he
07:02: He's very in -depth in in the material that he presents now I I can sort of give a defense against the
07:12: Doctrine of Mary that's held by Roman Catholics, but not at the same level as Tim Kaufman so so I have very little to offer to today's message other than to just maybe ask questions and If if they come up, but after going through Tim Kaufman's notes last night he sent them to me he's he's very thorough and I I Don't know if I have any questions because he just covers the material in such a way.
07:43: That's very helpful. So brother Tim Uh, let me just say thank you for coming on. It's it's a joy to have you here with us today
07:51: You you've been out I know that you you you got sick for a while and then you you've just been busy with work and everything else that's going on, but Real quick.
08:02: Is there anything else that I that you would want to add to what I said anything else that you've got going on?
08:10: well, I appreciate the introduction, of course, and I Will I'll do the best
08:15: I can to convey the information that I have We'll go over some of it pretty quick And what
08:21: I like to do is provide references, but I want to go back to the issue of Hank Hanegraaff I'm I was so disappointed to hear that he converted and and what
08:31: I typically find is that Eastern Orthodoxy is just as a waypoint on people's road
08:39: To Rome and he's not the first one to take that path and won't be the last but what
08:45: I find is That So many Protestants in their studies of church history start in the 16th century and So when
08:58: Roman Catholicism comes with a lot of arguments from the preceding centuries the the
09:04: Protestants will swallow those arguments whole and authoritative and Swallow them as authoritative arguments and don't have the resources necessary to counter the arguments and So what
09:19: I find is they often are victims of their own ignorance and Victims of the fraudulent reconstruction of history that Roman Catholic apologists present as the truth and I'll just say it as it is
09:33: It's a fraudulent reconstruction of history and when people are not equipped to answer the historical argument
09:41: They tend to fail in the scriptural argument as well And what I mean is that we can be equipped from the scriptures to make arguments and it's important that we do
09:53: But it's a very powerful argument that is made by Roman Catholics when they say Oh all the early church believed differently from you was the whole early church wrong
10:03: And then people say wow the early church couldn't be wrong otherwise Jesus is a liar and therefore I need to bow down to the cross and the relics into the
10:10: Eucharist and to Mary and What I want to do and what I hope we can do here is
10:16: Just equipped equip our listeners with some information that will help them argue against the
10:24: Roman Catholic apologist and Just to give you some illustrations and we'll get into this
10:30: Later on when we cover Mary's Ark of the Covenant. Well, let me uh, let me just I just want to point out that you
10:37: Hit the nail on the head. I Don't suppose that you heard Hank Hanegraaff's radio show yesterday.
10:44: Did you? No, no, I did not because he said exactly what you just went over that we need to get back to what the early church believed and he kept referencing the early church and what they what they viewed and that's what we need to go back to and so You're I think that you're identifying the problem accurately well,
11:11: I actually cover a survey of all these different topics in an article on my blog called longing for Nicaea and The the title of the blog comes from the fact that so many
11:22: Roman Catholic arguments have a continuous line of Traceability all the way back to the latter part of the 4th century
11:33: But they can't quite get to Nicaea and so many times they try to get to Nicaea Which is it's generally a church council that everybody would agree was a legitimate council
11:45: Although there's some folks that would say it was not legitimate but I read through the canons of Nicaea and the communications of the
11:53: Synodical letters from the Council of Nicaea and I just don't see anything. That's horrific or heretical and so because Protestants generally would accept
12:03: Nicaea as a legitimate council Roman Catholicism tries quite earnestly to trace its doctrines
12:10: At least back to Nicaea, which is 325 AD and they figure if they can get back that far
12:17: Then even the Protestants would have to get on board because the Protestants generally agree that Nicaea was a legitimate council
12:25: The problem is they always get stuck at the latter part of the 4th century and I I hear it time and time again the the early church
12:35: Believed that Mary was sinless. So they say and so the Roman Catholic says yeah, the early church believed that Mary was sinless why as Recently as the latter part of the 4th century
12:45: We have this father and that father and the other father saying this that the other but they can't seem to get back earlier
12:53: That a part of the 4th century and one one in particular that I thought was very revealing was that Scott Hahn who also a former
13:03: Presbyterian became Roman Catholic he wrote the Famous book Rome sweet home and talked about returning to Roman Catholicism, and he said
13:12: Well, the early church believed that Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant and he says why
13:18: Why is as early as the the 3rd century we have Hippolytus Describing Mary as the
13:26: Ark of the New Covenant Well, when you go back and read Hippolytus he actually says that Jesus body was the
13:33: Ark of the New Covenant not Mary and In and Scott Hahn's reading was based on a misunderstanding of what
13:39: Hippolytus had said in another paragraph and what we find Throughout the early church even past the the 4th century is the continuous reference to Jesus as the
13:50: Ark of the New Covenant the church is the Ark of the New Covenant the believer is the Ark of the New Covenant and You don't end up with Mary as the
13:57: Ark of the New Covenant really till Some obscure reference that was found among the works of Ambrose In the latter part of the 4th century identifying
14:06: Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant The same thing goes with the assumption of Mary There's just no evidence for it in the early church until after the 4th century sinlessness traces to the latter part of the 4th century and And we find that over and over again.
14:21: And so what I want to point out is that We need to know this history and it's extremely important for us to first state the scriptures of the sole rule of faith the important thing for us to understand is that The historical argument that Roman Catholicism makes is fraudulent and is full of gaps and When Protestants are illiterate in the realm of church history, they tend to fall for those fraudulent arguments
14:50: Just like Scott Hahn did just like Jason Stelman did just like Hank Hanegraaff did it just happens over and over and over again
14:56: And what I want to do is walk through Some various aspects and we're just limiting our discussion to Mary this time, although we've had conversations about The sacrifice of the mass and its origins in the latter part of the 4th century and What we'll do is we go through some of these topics on Mary find that either the the doctrines developed late like 300 years later than the apostolic era or The references that occurred earlier than that aren't consistent with the modern
15:30: Roman Catholic interpretation of the terms and And again, I want to equip our listeners so that they don't have to go to the
15:37: Bible answer man Who's going to then convert to Roman Catholicism? They should be able to look these things up on their own and I think that we can help them do that Yeah, you know and and just referencing him as the
15:49: Bible answer man. That is just Ironic and sad that the the the
15:55: Bible the man who professes to be the Bible answer man He's not getting the gospel, right?
16:01: He's not getting the doctrine of justification by faith alone, right? And just just for our listeners,
16:07: I firmly believe that we should do what Romans 16 17 says to to mark them and avoid them and to warn other people
16:16: Away from them and we're gonna get into to Mary and and and that's gonna be our topic for today but I just want to Warn our listeners away from Hank Hanegraaff he is not fit to be the
16:33: Bible answer man, and I say that with I'm not saying that with the callousness or with with malice or hatred
16:42: Folks if he if he's not getting the gospel, right? Then you shouldn't be listening to him if he's leading people to Rome if he's affirming
16:51: Roman Catholicism if he's if he's referencing James chapter 2 as a defense for Rome's view of the the doctrine of justification by faith and works then he
17:03: I pray that his Platform that his ministry which is not a ministry of Christ would be destroyed
17:12: And and that might sound harsh that might sound mean -spirited But folks he's leading people
17:19: Astray and it is it's extremely dangerous Just just how reckless
17:25: He's being in in the things that he's saying and so he is not the Bible answer man.
17:30: Don't be fooled pray for the man We're we're praying that that he be converted to Christ that he that he
17:37: Not be deceived, but that's why we're doing what we're doing here at Semper Ephraim on the radio
17:43: So Tim, let's go ahead and get into the the stuff on Mary Okay, let's let's run into run in where angels fear to tread the typically the question of Mary is something that is
18:01: It's an entry point for Roman Catholic apologists when they're trying to convert Protestants to Roman Catholicism and the reason is that we have a general regard and respect for Mary and I remember hearing a
18:16: Girl say once well, we should Respect Mary the scripture said she was blessed above all women and I had to correct her and say that's not what the scripture says is that she is blessed among women and and we have to remember that There there is a
18:34: Mary that is referenced in Jesus Testimonies in the scriptures where he says that This woman's name will be proclaimed wherever the gospel is preached.
18:45: And the funny thing is that it's not Mary his mother It's a different Mary. It was Mary the one who who bowed in worship before him and remember when he
18:55: When she was anointing his feet and people questioned whether she should be doing that He said I assure you what this woman has done will be told wherever the gospel is preached
19:04: And so if there's a scriptural mandate to preach Mary wherever the gospel is preached there is it's just not his mother
19:11: That we're supposed to be talking about and we'll get into a little bit more of that later But what
19:16: I want to do is first Go to the scriptures to find out what the scriptures say about Mary and we're going to cover this in summary format because they're they're just a few places in scriptures where she's mentioned and And It's important to know what those what the context is
19:32: And so we'll I'm just going to go through a list of places and everybody's so familiar with them that we're not going to read the text but The first is the
19:42: Annunciation And that's Luke 1 26 to 33 where the angel Gabriel comes and speaks to Mary and announces that she will be conceiving the
19:51: Christ Child There's the presentation of Jesus in the temple and it's a
19:57: Luke 2 35 and that's a very important one because that's where It was prophesied that a sword of sorrow
20:05: Simeon prophesied that a sword of sorrow would pierce her heart And it's interesting what the early church thought that meant we'll get to that when we get to Mary's sinlessness
20:16: There's the wedding at Cana where where Mary Points out that Jesus points out to Jesus that the hosts have run out of wine that one's particularly interesting to me just because The the typical interpretation of that is
20:32: Mary told Jesus what to do and Jesus obeyed But you read the text. There's no command issued from Mary simply
20:41: They have no wine at least no command From Mary to Jesus nothing for him to obey.
20:48: It's very interesting How the command to Mary from Mary to Jesus gets read into the text? There's the finding in the temple where Jesus and Mary and Joseph had gotten separated and they find out that they left him behind It's have to go back and get him.
21:04: That's Luke 2 46 to 52 There's several places in Scripture where this is mentioned but the mother and brothers of Jesus are identified in Matthew 12 46 to 50 and that's when they came searching for him and And interestingly
21:19: Mary is identified among them and together as a group. They're identified as unbelieving Mary at the foot of the cross and that's where G Jesus says to John You know,
21:34: I want you to say woman behold your son and then to John behold your mother and then
21:42: Those are the direct references to Mary the ones that will be Addressing in this series that we're doing on Mary There's some more general references that I want to mention and one is
21:53: Romans 3 23 where it says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God now what's interesting is the early church included
22:00: Mary and the all there all have sinned and Then there's the woman of Revelation chapter 12 and that's where there's a woman
22:09: Standing on the moon robed in the Sun and with the crown of stars on her head and Roman Catholics would say that that's
22:18: Mary. I Would say that that's the that's the apostolic church as it transitions from the
22:27: Jewish believers before Christ Transitioning to the Gentile and Jewish Church after Christ, but that's a portrait of the woman who is
22:39: God's special people and it's transitory only in that The woman of Revelation 12,
22:45: I believe spans the period is the Jews as Christ comes and then
22:52: He forms his church and then moves on and the Roman Catholics would say that this is a reference to Mary Now what's interesting is that this is pretty much the text that we all have to go by the early church used these texts
23:06: Protestants use these texts Catholics use these texts and Protestants look at this and we say
23:13: Mary was sinful. She was occasionally an obstructionist and distracted
23:18: Jesus from his ministry of teaching Jesus on occasion when asked when it now when it was announced that his mother and brothers and sisters are waiting for him
23:30: He said who are who's my mother and he points to the people who are with him he says any anyone who does the will of God as a mother brother or sister to me and You know
23:40: Protestants look at that and say, you know, it's interesting Jesus had the chance to do what Catholics want us to do and completely defer to his mother and say pardon me everybody my mother is here and And a woman of her stature can't be left waiting.
23:53: So let me show honor to my mother by Cutting short my ministry of preaching and going and attending to her every need and of course
24:00: Jesus didn't do anything like that. He completely He ignored the request and went on preaching and what's interesting about that is how the early church interpreted that we'll cover a little bit of that when we go through this series, but what we want to do today and We're not going to cover everything or every text
24:19: But what we're going to do is in this series, we're going to cover Mary as Queen Mother in particularly the
24:26: Old Testament role in the Davidic line of the mother of the Kings in the
24:32: Old Testament Are taken as a figure for an office that Mary would eventually occupy as mother of the
24:38: King of Israel Then there's Mary as Theotokos. It's a Greek word that literally means bearer of God and we're going to talk about the
24:48: Origins of the term the original use of the term and then finally the Roman Catholic interpretation and translation of that to turn to turn it into mother of God or or generatrix of God We're going to talk about the
25:04: Mary as Ark of the Covenant. We covered a little bit of that earlier We're going to talk about the sinlessness of Mary We're going to talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary and finally the
25:14: Assumption of Mary and then we'll wrap up with some thoughts on a scriptural view of Mary and And basically we will have summarized a defense that Protestants can use to answer
25:27: Roman Catholics and what I think is so funny about this is that on my blog one time
25:35: I was having a discussion with a Roman Catholic and we summarized various Protestants on the board had been summarizing their view of Mary based on these scriptures and This Catholic respondent says
25:48: I already know how you Mary hating Protestants interpret all those scripture verses
25:55: What's funny is the accusation of Mary hating is just simply a complete distraction I don't know any
26:01: Protestant that doesn't love Mary as a sister in Christ the way we love Abraham, you know the way we love
26:09: The way we love Moses the way we love David that you know, we love all our brothers and sisters in Christ We we love the
26:16: Universal Church and all the Saints from times past and and all the Saints yet to come none of us hate
26:24: Mary, but because There's not a lot of substance to the
26:29: Roman Catholic position on Mary and I'll just say it and I know that they're not Gonna like me saying it. There's so little substance on their actual position on Mary That their only real option is to respond with an ad ad hominem attack and say well you must hate
26:43: Mary a and and It's an insubstantial argument And what we'll find is what's so ironic about the accusation
26:53: Is that saying something like that to criticize our view of these scriptures and Mary as we can see her through these scriptures?
27:01: Is that the Protestant position is very much in line with the position that early church took on Mary and and well as we go through We'll address that a little bit more
27:11: But to the degree that we hate Mary as As that Roman Catholic would say it's absolutely a false accusation.
27:20: We do not hate Mary, but the accusation itself identifies Us with the early church and distances
27:27: Roman Catholicism from the early church That seems to be a pretty common tactic among People who just aren't able to debate or defend their position.
27:37: We see this happen all the time with Issues concerning homosexuality or the
27:44: LGBTQ agenda you can't rationally defend these positions and once you voice disagreement with it your disagreement is equated with hatred and in in all actuality
27:58: Us defending the the biblical doctrine of Mary actually shows great concern for who
28:05: Mary was We we care enough about who she was as as an individual as a person who was saved by Christ to defend who she actually was and And go to the scriptures for that All right, so let's go ahead and continue then okay, well our very first topic then is
28:29: Mary as Queen Mother and The the when I first moved to Huntsville, Alabama back in 1989
28:37: I was still Roman Catholic and I wanted to find a church to go to and my my options were
28:45: I Can't remember all the names of the churches, but one stuck out to me it was called
28:50: Our Lady Queen of the Universe and That was the that was one of my options for a
28:56: Roman Catholic Church to attend when I first moved here and that title of Mary as Queen Is something that's very special to Roman Catholics.
29:04: They see her as the not only the Queen of the Universe but the Queen Mother of the
29:09: King and the Queen Mother the King gets whatever she wants and can actually be
29:14: Jesus Counselor and There are even even some who say that at the at the command of Mary I'll obey even
29:25: God himself and there that's just blasphemy It's ridiculous. And I and you know,
29:30: I want to say something important here. It's offensive to Mary because they basically have turned her into a monstrosity that the scriptures do not testify to and Any human being to be so twisted and turned and morphed into something?
29:48: That's so offensive and objectionable is just utterly disrespectful I'll just go out and say that that the way that the
29:55: Roman Catholicism has Contorted Mary into this monstrosity is just I find it deeply offensive
30:03: But of course, it's not it's not about my personal interpretation that matters What matters is what the scriptures say, but they've turned her into something.
30:11: That's just just obscene and I just want to point that out that it's it's a ridiculous thing.
30:18: They've done and I consider it to be incredibly disrespectful of Mary But but let's let's cover this this issue of Queen Mother Is it that the
30:27: Roman Catholics believe and they would argue that in the Old Testament? there was an official and influential office called the
30:35: Queen Mother and this Queen Mother manifests in the Davidic line of Kings and That Mary because she is the last in the long line of mothers of Davidic Kings Would be the one to occupy that office on a perpetual permanent basis
30:52: Mary in the eyes of Roman Catholicism is eternally and perpetually the
30:59: Queen Mother of the last king of the Davidic line and Now in heaven, she gets to enjoy the same privileges that the
31:07: Queen Mother did in the Old Testament And the evidence is presented not just from Scripture For as far as from Roman Catholicism, but they would also say that this was common among the
31:19: Near Eastern Kings and their mothers in the surrounding nations around Israel, it was not unusual for there to be influential mothers of kings of those nations now, it's an extremely complex argument from Roman Catholicism and It is full of holes and I'll explain the holes the contradictions and the countervailing evidence
31:42: But let's just start with the first argument the first argument is that in the line of Davidic Kings of Judah Their mothers the each
31:53: King's mother is listed When the new king takes the throne Okay.
31:59: So the first point I want to make is that when Jehoram and Ahaz Took the thrones their mothers were not mentioned
32:06: They were in the Davidic line that the southern kingdom the kingdom of Judah and Jehoram took the throne in the second
32:13: Kings 816 and Ahaz took the key the throne in 2nd Kings 16 2 and In neither case are their mothers identified for us or mentioned when they took the throne
32:25: So let me just say for the beginning that obviously there's not a general rule about Queen mothers in the
32:32: Davidic line because we have two cases of Davidic Kings whose mothers were not mentioned now
32:38: Another argument is made by Roman Catholicism, and that's the argument that the term Gebera Is a term used for the mother of the
32:46: Davidic King of Judah? and the Gebera is an office occupied by an influential woman who is the mother and that would make
33:00: Mary today the Perpetual Gebera of Israel because she's the mother of the king okay, so the term
33:10: Gebera at least in this Rendering isn't only used six times in Scripture and I say at least in this rendering because there's other there's other
33:22: Similar words like Gebera which refers to a mistress or a powerful woman
33:29: There is the one we're focusing on because it has to do with royalty and The Roman Catholic argument is that the
33:37: Gebera is an office that describes the mother of a Davidic King Well, the problem is that it's only used six times in Scripture and of those six times only two actually refer to a mother of a
33:54: Davidic King The other four times refers either to the wife of the king of Egypt to the grandmother of the king of Judah or To Jezebel who is the mother of a king of the northern kingdom?
34:11: So what's interesting is that the argument at the outset is well in the Davidic line?
34:18: There is the office of Queen Mother Because all these kings mothers are mentioned when they take the throne
34:25: Like I said, there's two exceptions to that Jehoram and Ahaz That Gebera must refer to this office and yet of the six times it's used
34:36: One time refers to the wife of the king of Egypt not his mother. That's first Kings 11 19 Two uses refer to the grandmother of King Asa.
34:45: That's first Kings 15 13 and first Chronicles 15 16 and One use refers to Jezebel the mother of the king of Israel She was not a
34:55: I mean her son was not a Davidic King It's a second Kings 10 13 was was that the same
35:00: Jezebel that was extremely wicked Or is that a yes?
35:06: Yes Yeah, yeah, it is and you'll find that a great many of these these women that are identified.
35:12: That's that's a that's kind of problematic Yeah Yeah, you know the argument the
35:18: Roman Catholics They'll say well the Kings were evil too and that doesn't mean that there's no That Jesus can't be a righteous
35:24: King But the real question is is there an office of the Queen Mother and like I said, the argument is full of holes
35:31: Because yeah, and what I would encourage folks to look at is that the word mother is used several times in the
35:39: Old Testament in reference to a man's grandmother and it's important to know that because In first Kings 15 13 and first Chronicles 15 16
35:48: It's the grandmother of King Asa but The term used there is mother, but when you look at the genealogy
35:57: She's actually his grandmother So obviously the office doesn't belong to the mother of the king
36:04: If it's the grandmother the king that occupies that that office So so again, there's let me let me just say that what
36:12: I find really interesting about this is that you are defending the the
36:18: Defending the Word of God by appealing to or by going and checking the genealogies
36:23: The very thing that most of us skip over when we read our Bibles. So I just find it incredible I mean the genealogies are in there for a reason and And we sometimes read the
36:37: Bible and it's see all these names and this person begat this person and this person begat this person and It's just amazing that you're you're actually refuting the
36:47: Roman Roman Catholicism and their error By going and checking the genealogies.
36:52: I find that incredible Well, it's it's a very interesting study and it's sometimes quite complex because different people sometimes people went by two different names and that needs to be sorted out and sometimes the the the mother
37:08: There were periods when the king went off and hung out with the with other nations and came back and next thing, you know, he's got a wife or wives and You have to you have to figure out, you know
37:21: When did he get these wives and who were they where do they fall in line? and that's gonna be really important in our next one because the next argument that's made for For the role of the
37:30: Queen Mother is based on the political activities of powerful women in the royal court and And the scriptures portray powerful women in the royal court.
37:39: There's no doubt about it But but the six examples of powerful women in the royal court, and these aren't the same six that are identified as Kabira but there are different there there's some overlap, but they're different a different group and The Argument is made that these are very powerful women in the royal court.
37:58: And even though they're not all called Kabira They obviously were mothers of the king So there are two exceptions that we can dismiss at the beginning one is
38:07: Jezebel The reason I wanted to dismiss Jezebel from the beginning is because she was of the house of Israel She was not of the house of Judah So the idea of her as a figure for a
38:17: Queen Mother in the Davidic line doesn't make sense at all She's in her reference. There's first Kings 1631 and second
38:24: Kings 1013 And like I said, she can't serve as a figure for Mary's reign because she wasn't a queen in the
38:31: Davidic line the next one is Athaliah and That's second Kings 826 and we're gonna dismiss her from consideration because the political power that she manifested
38:41: Only occurred after her son was dead not during his reign so her political power
38:49: Enjoyed on behalf of because her son was the king of Israel. She enjoyed her political power after he died the next four cases
38:59: Have one thing in common and what's very interesting about this is Bathsheba Hamut al and nehushta all were politically powerful women on the
39:11: Davidic side But what's interesting about these three these four is they all have one thing in common
39:16: They were instrumental in getting their son on the throne when he was not the legitimate heir Bathsheba's son
39:23: Solomon was not next in line to the throne. You can read about that situation in first Chronicles 3
39:30: Makkah's son Abijah was not next in line for the throne. You can read about him in second Chronicles 11 18 to 23
39:37: Hamut al's son Jehoaz was not the next in line for the throne. You can read about him in second
39:42: Kings 23 31 36 Nehushta's son Jehoiachin was not next in line to the throne
39:49: You can read about him in second Kings 24 8 to 18 and second Chronicles 36 9 to 11 Now what's significant is here?
39:57: We have six powerful women two can be ruled out from the outset one because she wasn't in the
40:02: Davidic line and the other because She got her power after her son was dead. So obviously she can't be queen mother if there's not even a king, right?
40:11: So The other four all have to do with women who were instrumental in getting their son on the throne even though he wasn't next in line and That explains their involvement in their political power and to some degree their influence in the kingdom
40:25: Is that they were instrumental in making sure that even though their son wasn't the heir apparent?
40:30: He still ended up ruling as king Now we have just covered three things that are extremely important.
40:37: One is Every single Davidic King is not identified with his mother.
40:43: So We can't claim there's a general rule if there's two exceptions to it So we can't look and say well every
40:50: King is identified with his mother when he takes the throne The second thing is when the term gibberish is used
40:56: Only twice out of the six times does it even refer to the mother of a Davidic King? Okay.
41:02: The third one is when we have examples of politically powerful women We rule out
41:08: Jezebel because she wasn't of the house of Judah We rule out Athaliah because her power was exerted after her son was already dead
41:14: And that leaves us with four cases of powerful women the most consistent Pattern and all of this is that they were powerful because they intervened on behalf of their son
41:25: Who was not the heir apparent to get him on the throne? But what's significant about that is that Mary doesn't have to intervene to get her son on the throne, right?
41:33: He's the heir apparent and he took the throne Mary doesn't need to be called Gabira. Most of the time that the scriptures refer to Gabira It's not even a reference to a
41:41: Davidic King or the mother of a Davidic King So Mary doesn't need that title either and we don't need the title
41:47: We don't need to worry about whether there's this pattern in the Old Testament of having this Queen mother who rules over everything
41:54: Because we find cases in the Old Testament where that wasn't the case in other words the problem with Rome's argument here about The the office it's it's conjecture.
42:05: It's full of holes. It's inconsistent and and I want to read a summary from this is from a
42:13: Jewish guy named Zephira Ben Barak and he wrote an article called the status and right of the
42:19: Gabira And he summarized it so well It's the same thing that anybody would conclude if they went and studied the situation scriptures
42:26: It's it he says these circumstances Lead us to conclude that as a rule the
42:32: Gabira or Queen mother had no official political status in the kingdom and The mere fact of her being a
42:38: Queen mother did not bestow upon her any official political status beyond the honor due to her by Virtue of her position as a mother.
42:44: You know what that's the Protestant position Yeah, the guy's Jewish But he's making his argument for the scripture and when you go back and study what the scripture actually says about politically powerful women the mother the king you never end up in a situation where you have this revealed rule from God about the position of a
43:05: Queen mother and her influence over her son and Mary as the final fulfillment of that prophetic role and and what we
43:14: When we when we go through and study like this we just find that the whole thing is a complete fabrication and what we find especially because The the political influence of some of these women is so onerous odious and Indespicable what we find is in the
43:32: New Testament when Mary sometimes Intervenes when her son is preaching or tries to get him to do something some of the people in the early church actually assigned to her malicious vainglorious and obstruction of obstructionist motives that are very consistent with the political influence of mothers of the
43:54: King of the Old Testament and they describe her is Basically outrunning her coverage or trying to enjoy privileges that she doesn't really have
44:02: So the early church doesn't necessarily address a whole lot about Mary as Queen mother But they definitely find it offensive and we'll get to this when we talk about the sinlessness of Mary But they found it offensive when
44:12: Mary intervened the way some of these politically powerful women did in the Old Testament. So that's
44:18: I Wanted our Listeners to know that you don't have to take the
44:23: Queen Mother stuff lying down go to the scriptures read the genealogies Find that there's no general rule
44:30: There's nothing that was obvious to us and in fact where there is a pattern and that pattern is when a woman has to intervene
44:36: To get her son on the throne because he's not next in line That doesn't apply to Mary anyway, and frankly a godly
44:42: Christian woman doesn't long for that kind of power anyway, and wouldn't want it Yeah, obviously
44:49: These these the last four who tried to Who put their their sons and the throne who were illegitimate?
44:59: But Christ is the legitimate heir to the throne. And so That needs to be stated emphatically that that wouldn't even the comparison
45:08: I think between Those other four women and Mary and her relationship with Christ Which would just be erroneous to to make such a comparison because certainly
45:18: Christ is is the legitimate heir to? to the throne and he he's the king of Kings and I'm the
45:28: Lord of Lords. So I do I do want to say I'll say one thing on there that Solomon was indeed supposed to be the next king and And the fact that Bathsheba is his mother is is we know the whole story there
45:41: I don't want to take away from the fact that Solomon Was was a good king and he was he was a wise king.
45:48: The only pattern I wanted to point out is that The pattern we find is women advocating where her son is not the heir apparent and not obviously next to the throne
45:57: And so anyway, I want to make sure I point that out because it's not that Solomon was a bad king or terrible king
46:03: Just that that's the pattern we find and it certainly does not apply to Mary and therefore the argument for the
46:09: Kabira or the Queen Mother falls apart Yeah, that makes it it does it does.
46:14: Thank you. So and and by the way If I say anything wrong, just feel free to correct me.
46:20: Well, it's not necessarily wrong The whole thing was a big mess because of what David had done
46:25: There's no doubt about that and and I think it's very interesting and it's important That one up is that based on the argument from the surrounding nations that the point that Roman Catholics make what's interesting about this is that the
46:38: Hittite nation was actually known for having a role like that and Bathsheba was your eye of the
46:45: Hittite and it's conceivable that she imported some of her presumptuousness Of course, you know that would all be inference and so we don't want to go there
46:55: But it's very interesting that in the surrounding nations you do find that practice but the question is Is it legitimate for us to import that into the church?
47:04: And in fact, can we actually find evidence for a role like that in the history that we have in the
47:09: Old Testament? And we can't we find a lot of inconsistencies in countervailing evidence. And that's why
47:16: Protestants do not sin against by Mary by rejecting her role as Queen of the universe
47:22: Or the the the Queen of all of heaven whose commands even God himself obeys
47:28: It's it's a ridiculous doctrine and ridiculous teaching from Roman Catholicism The scripture doesn't support it as much as they try to stretch it out of the
47:36: Old Testament. It just isn't there Yeah, that's good. So All right, where we at well, okay, so that that wraps up our summary on the
47:46: Queen Mother and What I want to get into next is Mary as Theotokos and in this case it's a
47:55: Greek term and it means God -bearer although I don't want to I don't want to extract all the potential meaning out of that word
48:05: Tokos because Tokos can actually refer to A woman who bears a child or delivers a child in childbirth so you take the word
48:14: Theos which would refer to God and Toku which would refer to bearer and you put a
48:20: Theotoku or Theotokos or Theotoket depending on The conjugation and you end up with a word that means
48:26: God -bearer now what's interesting here is that there is indeed a Greek word for father and It is
48:34: Pateros. There is a Greek word for mother. It is Metera and What we don't find in In the early church is the term
48:46: Theo Metera or Mother of God what we do find is
48:52: Theotokos and what what I want to point out though is that that gets translated by Roman Catholics into the
49:00: Latin as Mater Dei or Dei genetrix and both of those, you know Mater Dei means mother of God and Dei genetrix is
49:08: The basically the the generator of God or in a genetic sense
49:13: I mean, that's where you know, that's where we get our word for genetics is from that term. Is it? Mary is the generator of God the genetrix and It's and it can in fact be translated as mother because it's the feminine sense now
49:27: What's interesting is that Mary is not actually called mother of God in the Latin until Ambrose John Cassian and Vincent of Lorraine's and so these are
49:37: These are men from the late 4th century early 5th century So the the term Mater Dei or you know
49:44: Mother of God isn't rendered in Latin in the church until Ambrose and John Cassian Vincent Lorraine So we're talking late 4th century early 5th century
49:53: So so what is the early evidence for Theotokos? so I think probably the most famous because it comes from the
50:01: It's it's supposed to be from allegedly the the the second or third century. It's it's papyrus 470 in Ryland's library
50:10: And I would encourage folks to look that up online. In fact, if you just type in papyrus 470 in Theotokos, you'll get it and some really nice high -definition images of a papyrus
50:22: That has some letters on it In a good portion of some of the letters are missing and it's very difficult to reconstruct the word but it has been reconstructed as Theotokos and in one scholar dates it to the 2nd or 3rd century so there so Roman Catholics have this argument that Wow Mary was being worshipped and Mary was being
50:44: Well, they're not gonna say worshipped. I would say that they worship Mary, but that's for a different different episode but they'll say
50:51: Mary was being appealed to in prayer as a protectress as Early as the 2nd century or 3rd century, but what's funny is you go to the papyrus 470 in Ryland's library and it's a publication
51:04: That you can you can find online and download and actually one scholar read it and said
51:09: I think this is probably from the 2nd or 3rd century and another scholar who co -authored the
51:15: You know the compilation of papyri from from the early church and and he said well
51:21: I I think this actually is from the late 4th century and other scholars put it even into the 5th century, but it's not it's not
51:30: There's nothing in it that says this is definitely from the 2nd century or definitely from the 4th century
51:35: It's just that scholars have disagreed on it. And so it's not necessarily proof that Theotokos is this early term that's apostolic now there's a there's some claims that Hippolytus who was from 170 to 235
51:48: AD Who lived from 170 to 235 AD? And yet the evidence shows that if you go back and look at all of his original
51:56: Documents are the best ones we can find that that actually the use of Theotokos is an interpolation that gets added later
52:02: It's not something that he originally would have written Some folks would say that Origen used the term and Origen was from lived from 185 to 254
52:11: AD It's the problem is that the only evidence we have that Origen used the term is that Socrates a 5th century historian
52:21: Claimed that it was in Origen's commentary in Romans But we don't have any of the original documents for that section of Romans And so we can't go back and verify that he actually used the term.
52:32: We just have a 5th century writer saying that he did so Others would say well
52:38: Dionysius of Alexandria used it, but he doesn't actually use the exact form Theotokos and so let's just at the outset and say this is really
52:48: There's nothing out there Yet, you know from the first three centuries the first two centuries
52:55: That's that has evidence direct Verifiable evidence that the word Theotokos is used at all in the early church
53:05: Now I'm gonna quote father Juniper. I'm sorry father Carol O 'Connor who is a
53:12: Mariologist in the Roman Catholic Church Long since passed, but he's a very well esteemed among Roman Catholic apologists and scholars, but He actually says and this is quoting from his work on Mariology.
53:24: He says that Alexander of Alexandria in 324 AD is the first certain literary use of the title
53:33: Theotokos So let's go to Alexander of Alexandria. I have no problem with history
53:39: I have no problem researching the history and I have no problem with with what I find there and what's really interesting is that when
53:46: Alexander of Alexandria Uses the word Theotokos He uses it in Contrast with the title he uses for God and the title he uses for God is
53:59: Theogonius because Jesus divine generation is from his father and so Alexander of Alexandria uses the term
54:10: Theogonius to refer to God the Father and Theotokos to refer to Mary and it's interesting when we juxtapose his uses of these two terms you see that he is focusing on the eternal generation of Jesus from his father and so refers to God the
54:31: Father as Theogonius and then when he refers to Mary he says it in the context of Jesus taking on a body and That's when he refers to Mary as Theotokos now
54:46: There's some that will translate as Mary mother of God There are others that would translate it as Mary bearer of God and in this case
54:53: What's interesting is that he uses the term right after he says that Jesus Did not merely appear to have a body but actually wore one or carried one
55:05: So in other words, he's making the point that Jesus really had a body and then he says that that is of Mary now
55:11: So so let's just review very quickly the first time That we find that we can confirm that the word
55:18: Theotokos is applied to Mary it is used as It's juxtaposed with a term that's used of God Theogonius well
55:30: Gonius and I want you to use some explicit terms here So if the kids are listening to the podcast go ahead shield their ears for now
55:37: But the word Gonius is where we work in our word gonads, which are the the organs of generation in the human body so when we talk about the divine generation of God Alexander of Alexandria is referring to God the
55:56: Father as Theogonius the generator of God and and then when he gets to Mary and Talking about the body that Jesus took on To become like us.
56:09: He uses the term Theotokos Now if we were just to look at this say oh look he called
56:15: Mary Theotokos therefore Theotokos is a Legitimate term and then we just move on and this is the kind of argument that Hank Hanegraaff would fall for by the way
56:23: Wow Alexander of Alexandria uses Theotokos therefore we can use Theotokos and Mary's the mother of God But when he uses it, he uses it in a way that proves that the latinization of the term
56:36: That is day generatrix or genetrix Is incorrect because he had actually said that day generation
56:44: Jade genetrix, which is the feminine version, but that the generation of God is
56:50: A title that is reserved to the father not to Mary and so the first time that we actually find
56:57: Theotokos used in The literature that we can find is actually used in the way that Protestants would use it
57:02: You know, I want to emphasize that point because I don't have a problem with Theotokos in the sense that Mary carried in her womb a person who is
57:13: God himself incarnate and who that person is to be worshipped and And Roman Catholics would say well if you don't say that Mary is
57:23: Theotokos mother of God, then you don't really believe that Jesus is
57:28: God and therefore really you're you're an Arian or you're you're an historian who thinks that Mary only gave birth to a nature and not to a person
57:36: But I want to read from you several other writers from the same period and I want to show you how consistent
57:43: Their teachings are with what we Protestants would believe and again, I want to say Theotokos can be found in the anti -Nicene era that is
57:54: In the years before the Council of Nicaea. There's no doubt about it I made an argument earlier about I made a point earlier about so much of what
58:01: Roman Catholicism wants to find in the early church They can't find in the Nicaean era
58:06: But they do find this they do find this term Theotokos and everybody would agree Yes, Alexander of Alexander used it, but when he used it he used it in counter distinction from a term he used of God That means that Dei Genetrix is absolutely incorrect translation or Mater Dei is the incorrect translation
58:26: And it certainly doesn't mean mother of God. There's actually a Greek word for mother and they didn't use it So let's look at Lactantius.
58:33: He was he lived from 250 to 325 AD Which means that he died the same year as the
58:39: Council of Nicaea. This is from Divine Institutes book 4 chapter 13 And you know,
58:44: I want just listen to how he describes God the Son as Motherless, okay, it's important to hear this
58:54: Because we're told by Roman Catholics unless you accept Mary as mother of God. You're not really Christian We're gonna by the time we're finished
59:02: Roman Catholicism will have to anathematize Lactantius Athanasius and Augustine himself because they all say the same thing
59:11: So this is what Lactantius said for which reason it was fitting that the son also should be twice born
59:16: That he might become fatherless and motherless for in his first nativity, which was spiritual
59:23: He was motherless because he was begotten by God the Father alone Without the office of a mother but in his second which was in the flesh
59:33: He was born of a virgin's womb without the office of a father Okay. Now, let's go to Athanasius.
59:40: This is from about 356 AD He says and this is from his discourse three against the
59:45: Aryans paragraph 29 Now the scope and character of Holy Scripture as we have often said is this it contains a double account of the
59:54: Savior that he was ever God and is the Son being the Father's Word and radiance and wisdom and Then afterward for us.
01:00:03: He took the flesh of a virgin Mary bearer of God that was made man now that that's the term that bearer of God Theotokos Roman Catholics would translate this as Mary the mother of God but I want you to notice the
01:00:16: Distinction that he makes the same one Lactantius makes that insofar as Jesus was eternally begotten by his father
01:00:24: He he has begotten without a mother and insofar as he has begotten in the flesh
01:00:30: He has Mary as his mother Okay. Now, I don't think that we can make the case that Athanasius was an historian or an
01:00:38: Aryan and so we're not going to make an argument about the different persons of the eternal generation of God because Athanasius isn't arguing for either of those those issues
01:00:47: He's simply saying that you know, what like Lactantius before him and like Athanasius of Alexandria before him
01:00:53: He's just saying that there's a double account of the Savior's generation or his nativity
01:00:58: In fact, his generation is from his father. He took flesh from a virgin and When he uses that term he uses the same one his mentor did
01:01:08: Alexandria Of Alexandria said Theotokos when referring to Mary So let's go to Augustine and he lived from 354 to 450
01:01:15: AD And this one is just absolutely mind -blowing when you think about how big a deal
01:01:20: Roman Catholics make about Theotokos This is from his lectures on the Gospel of John lecture 8 paragraphs 8 and 9
01:01:28: It says speaking of Christ. It says he was in an extraordinary manner begotten of the father without a mother
01:01:35: Born of a mother without a father Without a mother he was
01:01:40: God and without a father he was man. That's pretty interesting, isn't it? He says Without a mother he was
01:01:47: God Without a father he was man without a mother before all time without a father in the end of time
01:01:54: Our Lord Jesus Christ was both God and man According as he was God he had not a mother
01:02:01: According as he was man He had not a father She was the mother then of his flesh of his humanity of the weakness which for our sakes took upon him
01:02:11: I don't know a Protestant who would disagree with that I don't know a Catholic that wants to anathematize
01:02:17: Augustine because he said it that way but notice how he distinguished between the eternal generation of son by the
01:02:23: Son by the father saying that in so far as he is God.
01:02:29: He does not have a mother Now, why should Augustine have to repent? of that statement
01:02:36: Why why it's consistent with what? Athanasius of alexandria said it's consistent with what lactantia said is consistent with what athanasius said
01:02:46: According as he was God. He had not a mother. She was the mother then of his flesh of his humanity
01:02:52: None of that actually is disrespectful To Jesus or to Mary and it shows that in the early church.
01:02:59: They were wrestling With how do we describe the incarnation which is by no means a simple thing to understand
01:03:06: But how do we do that? without taking away from the glory of God and without heaping all sorts of unnecessary titles and adulation and worship on Mary and The early church figured out a way to do this as you know, what
01:03:20: Theotokos they didn't say Theo meter us Theo meter up They made a point that in so far as he was generated
01:03:30: He was generated by his father alone in so far as he took on flesh He had a mother and that mother was
01:03:37: Theotokos. I don't have a problem with that but what I don't get out of all this is when athanasius of alexandria distinguishes between Theogonius referring to God the
01:03:49: Father and Theotokos regarding Mary I Absolutely cannot get
01:03:55: Dagenetrix as a latinization of that Greek term and it's absolutely incorrect for the Roman Church to do it and I'll say it again
01:04:01: They didn't start doing that to the latter part of the fourth century even though they can trace the word earlier than Isaiah the idea of Mary as Mater Dei or Dagenetrix is a late 4th century novelty that is highly inconsistent with Lactantius and Alexander of Alexandria and Augustine himself
01:04:20: So well that that covers what I wanted to do today. I think that we need to go to follow up on this in the next episodes, but what
01:04:32: I wrote just just to summarize what we've talked about is that Oftentimes Protestants will fall for the empty arguments
01:04:42: Roman Catholics use and Because they don't know the history very well They fall for the fraudulent historical arguments and then make the same
01:04:52: Illogical leaps that Roman Catholicism has to make to sustain its doctrines But what we find is that what
01:04:58: Roman Catholicism teaches as apostolic Actually originates much much later than the
01:05:04: Apostles and Theotokos is one of the few exceptions But as I mentioned when you look at the first use of it that can be confirmed
01:05:13: Theotokos is distinguished from Theogonius in a way that shows that Theotokos can't possibly mean Dagenetrix as the
01:05:19: Latins have tried to make it and then when it comes to the office of Queen Mother as we see from the scriptures and the
01:05:25: And the genealogies it just doesn't make sense Protestants are under no obligation to honor her as mother of God or queen of the universe.
01:05:33: I Would encourage Hank Hanegraaff to rethink his position on that. Although I don't know if he's gotten that far.
01:05:41: I Just ask invite him to study the history on this. Yeah, and I don't even know how to get this episode to him.
01:05:49: I Would like to see if I can post it in the comment section on his website
01:05:56: Let me ask you a question. So Athanasius is the the one who dealt with Arianism, right and They they coined the phrase
01:06:08: Athanasius contramundum. Is he Then that's the one I want to make sure we understand though that Alexander of Alexandria is the one that deposed
01:06:17: Arius. He's the first one to raise the issue and that's when Constantine said Okay, we need to have a council to sort all this out.
01:06:23: Yeah, Arius Athanasius of Alexandria Yeah, Arius called him a heretic, right and then it took some time for for Alexandria, right to to I guess
01:06:39: Confront Arius, but then Athanasius eventually took up the charge against Arianism Yes.
01:06:45: Yes. Well, the Council of Nicaea addressed the issue and and And also addressed some other administrative issues in the church as well right then because the
01:06:55: Arians kept on appealing to the Emperor and They were accusing Athanasius of teaching error eventually
01:07:03: Athanasius had to be tried and then acquitted For it for the accusations against him, but but so Alexander of Alexandria is the one that deposed
01:07:10: Arius in the first Synod dealing with Arianism and then this got elevated to a church council where it was addressed there and then
01:07:21: Alexander of Alexandria eventually died and Athanasius picked up his mantle and kept on defending right right and Athanasius contramundum is a
01:07:30: Athanasius against the world and because at times seemingly it Looked as if he was really the only one standing.
01:07:38: Of course, that's not true We know that even at times when when it looks like we're the only one standing for truth
01:07:45: I mean God always saves the remnant others who who are right there with us, but Athanasius contramundum means
01:07:53: Athanasius against the world but so You pointed out that that this was difficult that this is a difficult thing to I guess reconcile or think about is the the incarnation and the the deity of Christ and and how that plays into you know
01:08:13: Christ being a man fully man fully God and this is about the time that these issues were because Arius and Arianism was attacking the deity of Christ that this is a this is after the
01:08:28: Council of Nicaea when he wrote this and and So he's I suppose he's further developing the the biblical view of of Christ in his writings
01:08:39: Yeah, Athanasius was defending the biblical view. Absolutely. I want to because I didn't give the reference
01:08:44: I want to go back to it Alexander Alexander where we quoted him was chapter 12 of his His epistles on Arianism and the deposition of Arius So it's important to go back and read that and what was at stake here was that?
01:08:57: the Arians did not believe that Jesus was eternally generated of his father, but he was generated in time and Therefore there was a point when he did not exist
01:09:07: Right the the or the church was actually arguing for he was eternally generated by this father and so the that's why it was so important to identify that that when addressing that particular issue the generation of Christ is
01:09:25: Relegated to the father alone It's not combined with Mary and it's so important to know that again
01:09:31: The first time Theotokos is used it's in counter distinction to Theogonius, which is the true term for Generation of God and therefore we can't say
01:09:40: Mary is Dagenetrix or Mater Dei Because that's simply not the way the term was used when that the
01:09:46: Alexander of Alexander was using it So right. Well Tim, let me let me ask you
01:09:51: Can you let our listeners know of what we will so we're gonna do a part two and we'll see if There's a part three that comes after this.
01:10:00: I mean we could we could go on on this topic for quite a while, but Would you would you let our our listeners know what it is that we're going to just cover next time if I look at your notes, uh,
01:10:16: I Think you're gonna be getting into Mary as the Ark of the of the New Covenant and and some other topics
01:10:24: Yes. Yes, and in fact With Queen Mother and Theotokos out of the way
01:10:29: Let's we'll continue with Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant. And the reason this is so important is
01:10:35: Because The other Marian doctrines that have been stumbling blocks for Protestants and really the the errors of the
01:10:45: Roman Catholic Church but they're laid before Roman for his Protestants as stumbling blocks to get us to come back to Roman Catholicism as it were but when we talk about Mary's sinlessness and we talk about the
01:11:00: Mary's perpetual virginity and Mary's bodily assumption into heaven all of them trace back to the
01:11:08: Ark and that Mary is that the Ark prefigured Mary and that Mary is the eschatological fulfillment of the typology of the
01:11:17: Ark and therefore Once you establish that she's the Ark you establish that she is sinless because the
01:11:24: Ark was holy Establish that she's a perpetually virgin because no man could touch the Ark you you
01:11:31: Establish that she was assumed bodily into heaven because the scriptures talk about arise
01:11:36: O Lord until I rest and now in the Ark of Thy strength and so so all this comes back to Mary being the
01:11:42: Ark of the New Covenant and what's interesting we find in the early church. They didn't believe that at all and Then we'll wrap up on all these different topics in our second episode, so So we yeah, it sounds great.
01:11:55: I'm really looking forward to that and I really appreciate you coming on today and Giving us an overview and refuting the the
01:12:03: Roman Catholic view as unbiblical So I really appreciate it.
01:12:09: Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. All right Just want to remind our listeners to also check out our blog.
01:12:17: We are Posting articles. I don't know how frequently we're going to be posting our articles
01:12:23: But Tim Kaufman has some articles that he's generously Posted on our blog to to give some
01:12:31: To just give a little little taste of what he's capable of in writing. And if you want to see
01:12:39: If you want to see more of his writing, please go to his blog whitehorse blog calm and With that we will wish everybody a blessed week.
01:12:51: So we'll check you next time. Thanks a lot. Bye Looking for that perfect track for your next evangelism outreach look no further at Track planet comm we have solid biblical tracks that are a breeze to hand out
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